In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
~~~ snip ~~~
You still don’t understand the difference in rewards. I’ll use both you and me as examples. If you put in maximum efforts on your map and only get T2, and I put in the same efforts and get T4, you do not deserve the same rewards as I. This is because your map failed to meet the requirements to reach the highest tier of rewards. I’ll give another example. On your map, you were the main Commander who was able to rally your group and push your map to T3, but I tagged one enemy and got T4 on my map because the other players helped to meet the requirements. You put in 110% effort, while I just tagged one enemy to get credit and AFK’d the rest. In this case, you still don’t deserve T4, because your map didn’t meet the requirements, while mine did.
You probably hate the above examples, but unfortunately, that’s how the mechanics work. If a group fulfills the requirements for T4, the merchants all unlock for everyone. Random pugs who didn’t participate still get to enjoy the benefits, because that’s the mechanic of the reward. The one big drawback to not participating, is that you don’t get the Geode rewards per event that was done. So even if the map unlocks T4 merchants, not everyone can make full use of them anyways.
Think of this like CoF. The Dungeon is locked until a group decides to complete the meta events to open it. So if there’s 100 players on the map all waiting at the entrance to CoF, and only 5 players actually doing the meta chain, the whole map benefits from those 5 players. If you were the Commander doing the meta chain, and failed to complete it for whatever reason, then the whole map fails until the meta event restarts
Onto your next complaint. Again, you are not Entitled to get onto a map where there are other like-minded people who want T4. Anet cannot segregate players based on their desire to reach T4. How would you measure their thoughts and skill levels? Until we get headgear like Sword Art Online that connects directly to our brains, there’s no way to do it. Maybe you’d prefer a button that says “I want to join a T4 map”? If that were available, I guarantee you that 100% of the players seeing that would all press that button, and you’d be right back where you started.
The only thing I agree with you is that Anet needs to make more tools and mechanics for large groups to gather on the same map. Realize that this would work against you, since it would be way for groups to get away from the “solo” players.
Edit – and by “solo”, I mean “not part of a group”
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Kiel is in way over her head. Not only did she fail to protect LA, but now she can’t even get LA rebuilt. I understand we’re all Heroes that save the world time and time again, so it make sense that we need to lend a hand. But as long as Kiel is in charge, I’ll be spending my time with the Black Lion Trading Post reps in the corner.
Side note – it would be a good idea for Anet to release events based on repairing LA, as long as players are rewarded for our efforts. Perhaps some tiered competition to see who can gather the building materials the fastest, and Evon could donate BL Keys to the best players. Because Evon is best charr.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
~~~ snip ~~~
Ohoni, there seems to be a serious disconnect here on what you feel you deserve. I get that you want to be rewarded for your participation in events. In fact, the current mechanics already do. But this is where you seem to not understand the reward mechanics. There’s a difference between the individual rewards, and group rewards.
If you stunlock Tootsie or help rescue the hostages, you are doing “your” part, and are rewarded once the event ends. The requirements here are straight-forward: complete the event. Now let’s take a look at the Tiered Rewards. In order to move up the reward ladder, you need to fill the event bar. This is done by completing X amount of events within the specific time limit. You contribute to the bar, but in order for everyone to get the highest tier (T4), all requirements must be met. Without the help of other players’ contributions to the event bar, you cannot meet the requirements, thus you don’t deserve the T4 rewards. But that’s not to say you don’t get rewarded at all.
This concept is a very simple one. The game has many group events that have requirements before you can win. Boss Blitz had a timer in which all bosses needed to be killed to get Gold rewards. Don’t make the initial timer, you move down to Silver or Bronze. Just because you killed one boss out of six, doesn’t mean you automatically deserve the best rewards. Your success is determined with everyone else doing their part.
So in conclusion, no player is “Entitled” to the best or highest tier of rewards of group content, if the event in question cannot be successfully completed by the group. If you don’t like that idea, don’t do group content. Do other things that you can do solo, and have complete control over.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
And recognize that even this elite little clique only exists at the largess of the game developers, who designed the systems. This is not the raid-guild’s world, they are just playing in it. I’m not saying that people on a T4 map are obligated to invite me in, I’m saying that ANet is obligated to provide a game system in which I shouldn’t have to be invited in, because merely wanting to be on a T4 map automatically places me on one.
It shouldn’t require outside coordination amongst the players, it shouldn’t require guilds, it should just be a natural consequence of the tools the developers provide that requires no direct interaction with any other players.
Nope. There’s nothing that says you deserve to be in a certain map with certain group that you’re not a part of. If you have a guild with 200 players trying to get into a map that only holds 120 to 150, and you’re not part of that guild, why do you feel you have a priority over the people who are actually planning a run?
I agree Anet needs to make better mechanics so organized communities can gather for group content. But if something like this were to be implemented, realize solo players like you will more likely lose out. You wouldn’t be able to get into the specific map, unless you have a friend invite you in.
Lastly, succeeding at content is a natural consequence of players just playing the content. But when you want to succeed at the highest tiers of rewards, or shall I call it “challenging group content”, you and everyone else needs to put in maximum effort to meet the requirements. Solo players can get T1 or T2 rewards, but T4, or 5, or 6 requires a group with coordination. The highest rewards are exclusive to groups who can pull it off. A solo player should never be able to access these rewards, unless you’re a solo player who just so happens to be running with that group. This forces players to do what this game intended on players doing, getting together to tackle tough challenges. The social aspect of getting together is a nice side bonus the game rewards you.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
When are we going to start seeing the money made from selling stuff in the gemstore put back into the game? When sub based games make their money, they eventually put that money back into the game by creating meaningful content. When is Anet going to start doing this with their gemstore profits? You seem to have all the answers penguin. Answer that question.
You keep talking about business this and business that. Look at the forums, my friend. People are getting sick of this business of gemstore profits and nothing going back into the game. Which business tactic is that modeled after?
This is the nature of business. Anet is owned by NCSoft. Every single cent of sales goes to the mother company, and they in turn give back the subsidiary funding to continue creating content.
You want to know where they put all the stuff back into the game? Look at the Living Story. Look at World Boss revamps. Look at the new voice actors/actresses for the new characters. Look at the new cinematic. Look at the bug fixes. Look at the Customer Support staff who undo hacker damages. Look at John Smith for keeping our economy is tip top shape.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
“The mistake you’re making is that it’s your personal feeling towards this game is purely aesthetic after you ate up all the content.”
…..
“As you can see, aesthetics is very important for a lot of players.”You do realize you’re arguing yourself, right?
It’s not just important to a lot of players. It is the only thing to strive for at “end game” in GW2. The Living Stories are hardly what I would (and a great deal of other players) would consider “content”. Basically, at this point, GW2 has become a vicious recycling motion of trying to make money off the gemstore with little in the way of “content” or any addition thereof.
You can argue this all you want but when the content being released is completed within a few hours, tops, one has to take a step back and ask themselves what exactly are they logging in for. You’re playing a game to spend money on “skins”. That’s all. There are no new dungeons, no new zones to do things of any importance to your character or over all lore and as we have admitted to in the other thread, there is no gear treadmill. So what are you playing GW2 for? To pay to look pretty?
Not exactly. There are a LOT of players who view aesthetics to be important. But just because a lot of people may feel this way, doesn’t mean it’s the only thing in the game to do. They can do Dungeons, Fractals, SPvP, WvW, and even new LS content.
Here’s where you need to understand the businessman’s perspective. Because Anet knows a lot of players like to look good, they put really nice looking skins in the Gem Store. I rarely buy armor sets, but when the Assassin one came out, I knew that I just had to have it. Anet/NCSoft profits off of my personal desire to look like an awesome ninja. If they sold a consumable that allowed me to gender-swap the clothes my male norn wears, I’d buy that too. If they sold me exclusive access to Cantha, I would drop hundreds of dollars for that.
Anyways, there are players who feel like this game is a “play to look pretty”. I’m one of them, and my spending behaviors dictate that I’ll drop real money for fancy virtual skins.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
For most of GW1’s life, the only way to get the best looking Skins was to farm the same dungeons or unlock them in PvP. Then sometime after EotN was released, all of the Outfits that didn’t ship with the Chapters/Expansion and were instead themed “Festival outfits”, (but COULD be worn in combat too), started coming only from the Cash Shop.
That was the turning point I think… and anyone who spent a few minutes in L.A. or Spamadan noticed pretty quickly just how many “social butterflies” would keep on buying those Aesthetics.
I’m not sure I like EITHER SYSTEM. Granted I did get my favorite looking bow of all time (Silverwing/Kinslayer) from one of those dungeons. But I do stand with the OP in questioning why there doesn’t seem to be any variety at all here in the source of new Aesthetics? Furthermore, why is there no Player-Studio or “Design an Armor-Set” contest? …there should be one of those every year. Anet was famous for its “Design a X” contests.
The reason behind the skin issue is a business one. By offering unique skins that can only be purchased with Gems, you give incentive to players to spend real money. It makes no sense, business-wise, to “not” offer exclusive content in their microtransaction store. If you could get all the best stuff from in-game content, then there’s no reason to spend additional money in the Gem Store.
That doesn’t address the point one bit. You only constructed a Strawman instead. No where did I say there shouldn’t be any Shop-Exclusives. What I pointed out is that after a certain point even in the first game, they became the ONLY new aesthetics being added. Therefore every single new set (or 95% of them currently in Gw2’s case) are only available in the Shop. If you wish to discuss Gold-2-Gem conversion however, please choose another thread. Not going to be having that discussion with you here.
Not sure where you get a Strawman argument from, when I’m discussing valid sales tactics. The mistake you’re making is that it’s your personal feeling towards this game is purely aesthetic after you ate up all the content. There’s a lot of replay value in the existing content, and with new stuff in LS releases. That fact that you want new skins is the reason why they’re put into the Gem Store. Were I in charge of the microtransactions in GW2, I would definitely take advantage of this behavior.
Psychological Marketing is key to understanding customers, trends, wants and needs. Tormented skins came out, a lot of players wanted it, and a lot probably bought Gems for BL Keys. Flame-kissed armor came out, and there was a uproar because it resembled too closely the Human T3 female armor. As you can see, aesthetics is very important for a lot of players. Thus the reason why Anet would focus on bringing out the next big thing, in terms of weapon or armor skins. If new skins were all in game as rewards from content, players would have no reason (or a lot less reason) to spend additional money.
You brought up a business related question, I gave you a business answer.
Side note – These are not evil tactics. A business exists to make money. A manager of that business is required to find the best ways to bring in sales on a consistent basis.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
~~~ snip ~~~
This isn’t bull. This is a valid assessment when discussing the nature of “Entitlement”. This feeling isn’t a bad thing. We, as players, all want the best stuff. But that’s a lot different from saying that we “need” the best stuff. The game was designed so that the Casual player can still succeed without all the extra fluff that high tiered rewards grant. You want the extra fluff on a personal level, and are vocal about having it. You don’t need it.
Back to your desire to have the best rewards from group content, without the success of the group. You talk about wanting the conveniences of being about to join a group that’s doing group content. If you aren’t afforded that convenience, you feel no one else should have access to the high level rewards. Realize that you are an outsider to the group forming. As a solo player wanting to join a group, you still have that opportunity if you can find someone kind enough to taxi you in. Don’t take that kindness, and mistake that for the group being required to let you in because you feel you deserve to be there.
There are two things you can do to help you with the issue of group content. 1) Join a raid-type/raid-focused guild. 2) Organize your own groups. In the case of the latter, your success would be determined on your ability to gather the right people, and to be able to lead them through the proper events.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
For most of GW1’s life, the only way to get the best looking Skins was to farm the same dungeons or unlock them in PvP. Then sometime after EotN was released, all of the Outfits that didn’t ship with the Chapters/Expansion and were instead themed “Festival outfits”, (but COULD be worn in combat too), started coming only from the Cash Shop.
That was the turning point I think… and anyone who spent a few minutes in L.A. or Spamadan noticed pretty quickly just how many “social butterflies” would keep on buying those Aesthetics.
I’m not sure I like EITHER SYSTEM. Granted I did get my favorite looking bow of all time (Silverwing/Kinslayer) from one of those dungeons. But I do stand with the OP in questioning why there doesn’t seem to be any variety at all here in the source of new Aesthetics? Furthermore, why is there no Player-Studio or “Design an Armor-Set” contest? …there should be one of those every year. Anet was famous for its “Design a X” contests.
The reason behind the skin issue is a business one. By offering unique skins that can only be purchased with Gems, you give incentive to players to spend real money. It makes no sense, business-wise, to “not” offer exclusive content in their microtransaction store. If you could get all the best stuff from in-game content, then there’s no reason to spend additional money in the Gem Store.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
If you hate [pre-organized] events so much, why even bother playing them? No one is forcing you to do our content. I don’t like Dungeons, so I don’t do them. A friend of mine hates WvW, so he doesn’t do it.
Theoretically, I would be fine with that. I don’t feel, however, that ANet is presenting that as a fair choice. For one thing, it makes up the vast majority of new content. It is the only new repeatable content in the Dry Top expansion. It was the only repeatable content in the Festival expansion. If I do not engage in this content, then I would be stuck just doing the same content that’s been around for over a year now. I enjoy the old content, but I’ve done it to death and need new stuff. For your position on this to be relevant, they would need to produce both types of content in equal quantities.
Second is the massive reward differential. You can say “if you don’t like doing organized raid-like content, just don’t do it,” but if that content offers significantly higher reward than other content for the same amount of time and effort, then that isn’t exactly a reasonable position to take. If I just ignore the organized play content then I’m setting myself well behind the income curve of the game. For your position to be relevant, they would need to do a better job of balancing the rewards between organized and traditional gameplay, so that either offers the same general quality and quantity of rewards, with nothing absolutely exclusive to either type.
Let me focus on the last part here. You dislike the group content, but want the rewards of the highest level of success of said group content.
Anet gave you events throughout Dry Top that you can play. They aren’t forcing you to do these, as you can just bypass them and complete the story. But if you do them, Anet is offering you different tiers of rewards, based on how well your map does in completing them all. For those who want the best rewards, they need to get organized and complete the requirements.
You brought up an interesting position:
I enjoy the old content, but I’ve done it to death and need new stuff.
I believe this is the key to your whole thought process with the issue at hand. You don’t “need” new stuff, you “want” it. And because you want it, you desire to get the best gear in the quickest and most cost efficient way possible. And because the cheapest content of your desires is locked behind high level rewards for group content, you’re upset. This is very similar to being upset that Anet is offering Tequatl themed weapons for only the lucky players in a group who kill Teq, or Wurm armor for only the lucky players in a group who kill the Great Wurm.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
If it’s the word of an educated person speaking in a position of authority to their speciality over some random forum lurker …. always.
You know, they’ve done social experiments with ppl that have a similar rationale as you. Scary and dangerous stuff, indeed.
You’re trying to argue facts with conceptual perceptions. Facts will always win mate. John Smith is an expert in economics… in real life. Unless you have the years of experience in economics that our friendly British economist has, you cannot win any debates.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
1) Yes we are all valuable customers. But only the paying players bring in revenue.
2) Yes the Gem Exchange is a brilliant tool that brings in revenue for Anet/NCSoft, from players like me who purchase Gems with real money.
3) Someone trading their time for in-game items does not help a company to profit. Someone trading their cash for in-game items does.
4) And yes, the guy who got the 100 Gems got it for free. Thus no revenue is generated from him.
sorry penguin, you arent any more valuable than the gold-> gem buyer, until the point in time in which people are no longer willing to pay real cash for his gold.
I’m more valuable as a paying customer, as I bring in repeated revenue to the company. That’s not to say that Anet doesn’t value all players. But if you look at one player spending $10,000 in microtransactions in a year, and one player who spend $0, in a business sense, the one paying $10,000 is more important.
If you gave them 10,000 and he got other people to give them 50,000 By selling them his gold. He is more valuable.
Wrong again. The non-paying customer who exchanged their Gold → Gems don’t bring in revenue. Because they spent $0 on microtransactions. This is simple business. Now when you’re trying to say that those same non-playing customers are responsible for getting other players to buy Gems with real money, that’s really stretching it mate. There are some points to consider here:
1) While there are players who buy Gems to convert to Gold, the Gold → Gem players far outnumber them.
2) Gold is not the only driving factor in a paying player’s decision to purchase Gems.
3) Gold in the Gem Exchange pot already existed before the game started. The additional Gold being deposited via the Gold → Gem players only adds to the existing balance of the pot. I can say with near 100% certainty that the Gold initially deposited into the pot is still there. I calculate this by way of the cost ratios in the Gem Exchange. The price of Gold → Gem exchanges is at an all-time high, because there’s a lot more Gold than there are Gems.
4) I need to put this out there. I agree with you that all players are valuable to Anet. But you need to understand that paying customers are what drive coninued the success of GW2. If we weren’t here, NCSoft would shut us down like Heroes.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Yes, sir, we understand that GW2 must be viewed under a different light. THIS is why we must apply the meaning of “pay to win” differently in the case of gw2. I’ve already stated that there is no gear treadmill and so have you by your, “in GW2, all players are on even ground” comment. In MMO’s where the “pay to win” term is applied, those are MMO’s that have gear treadmills. We have agreed that GW2 does not have one (something I stated in my other post). The “skins” are the end game achievements. If you can purchase stats in a gear treadmill MMO, it is pay to win. If you can purchase skins in no gear treadmill GW2, it is pay to win.
Again you’re wrong. It’s not about gear treadmills. It’s about advantages. If one player could buy a Legendary Greatsword with real money that gave +1,000 Power, and a player who doesn’t pay only has a Legendary Greatsword with the base core stats, THAT is P2W.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Purchasing the skins completely bypasses the need for any competition. So, in essence, brings the term “pay to win” to a whole new level. Furthermore, the journey in GW2 is for a WHOLE other thread, entirely. Let’s avoid going down that road, shall we?
You don’t beat the game because you have better skins than someone else. And you definitely don’t win PvP tournaments because your armor looks better than your opponent’s. Ergo, GW2 is not P2W.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
1) Yes we are all valuable customers. But only the paying players bring in revenue.
2) Yes the Gem Exchange is a brilliant tool that brings in revenue for Anet/NCSoft, from players like me who purchase Gems with real money.
3) Someone trading their time for in-game items does not help a company to profit. Someone trading their cash for in-game items does.
4) And yes, the guy who got the 100 Gems got it for free. Thus no revenue is generated from him.
sorry penguin, you arent any more valuable than the gold-> gem buyer, until the point in time in which people are no longer willing to pay real cash for his gold.
I’m more valuable as a paying customer, as I bring in repeated revenue to the company. That’s not to say that Anet doesn’t value all players. But if you look at one player spending $10,000 in microtransactions in a year, and one player who spend $0, in a business sense, the one paying $10,000 is more important.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
No, your understanding of pay to win is flawed. In what pay to win game are you required to do anything?
Pay to Win means “Paying for a competitive advantage to winning the game”. This is an advantage not available to non-paying players. Your understanding of what “P2W” is inherently flawed, because nothing in GW2 falls in this category.
There is a competitive advantage in PVE? Tell me, in PVE WHO are you competing against? Pay to Win was derived from a player being able to pay to win the GAME. And though this, pay to win term, is largely metaphorical it was meant to describe the ability for a player to pay to get to the end achievement of the game. And as I stated previously, since gw2 does not have a gear/stat treadmill, the carrot on the stick is “skins”. Being able to purchase skins, therefor, makes it pay to win.
Wrong again. Pay to Win was derived from free to play MMOs that allowed paying players to have statistical advantages over non-paying players, thus where the “win” term comes into play. In GW2, all players are on even ground. Each can win the game with or without Gems. In a P2W game, non-paying customers cannot win against paying customers.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
No, your understanding of pay to win is flawed. In what pay to win game are you required to do anything?
Pay to Win means “Paying for a competitive advantage to winning the game”. This is an advantage not available to non-paying players. Your understanding of what “P2W” is inherently flawed, because nothing in GW2 falls in this category.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
I would pay Gems for this!
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
how can i retrieve a deleted character ?
in Account & Technical Support
Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294
Take this as a lesson to be more careful in the future.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
You don’t have to buy the current LS. You just need to log in, and follow the events to Dry Top.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
The TP just isn’t refreshing properly. It happened before.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
~~~ snip ~~~
To counter this whole post, I would like you to understand that the Gem Exchange brings in no money. Players like me bring in money by purchasing Gems. The reason why the exchange rates are so high at the moment, is because us paying players aren’t exchanging as much as non-paying players. The Gem Exchange is working efficiently and as intended.
the purpose of the exchange is to allow people to trade gold and gems.
the reason for its existence within this monetary machine is to transfer the desire and work of gold earning players towards gem store items, into real money.
Essentially allowing players with desire, and no money to still be monetizable by allowing them to trade in game effort/time with people who have and are willing to spend money for their ingame time and money.
the exchange rate being high isnt really that relvant to the system, other than how it influences how many gem store items are sold.
the rate essentially cancels out.
whether cash player gets 100000 gold for a dollar, or 1 gold for a dollar, the return to anet is still 1 dollar.and what actually gets that dollar is the fact that some player wanted some gem store item and was willing to work for it. either by working at their job, or working at playing the game for someone else willing to pay anet money.
Wrong again mate, but not on the core purpose of the Gem Exchange. Yes this tool allows non-paying players to access microtransactions they could otherwise not afford, or had no intention of using real money to obtain. Let’s dive into the flaws of your argument.
Non-paying players bring no money into the game, outside of the initial box price. They trade their in game efforts (which have no monetary value) with virtual extras. Gems in the pot of the exchange were already there in the beginning. Players who exchange Gold for Gems got them for free. They bring no additional revenue. This is a simple business principal.
For example, two people walk into a store. One has cash, while the other has a coupon for free merchandise. If the person with cash makes a purchase, only he is actually bringing in revenue to the business. With your though process, you’re thinking that the person with the coupon is making the store money too. This is where your ideas are flawed.
See your example is where you miss the point.
1 guy buys the item with cash
the other guy gets someone else to buy the item for him in exchange for mowing his lawn.In this case both the guy who buys with cash, and the guy who mows someones lawn to get the other person to buy the item are valuable customers.
anet is even more intelligent because they set up a system for people to trade thier desire to do work for someone else, into more profit than if they set it up themselves.
a coupon user would be the guy who went to pax and got a free 100 gem card.
1) Yes we are all valuable customers. But only the paying players bring in revenue.
2) Yes the Gem Exchange is a brilliant tool that brings in revenue for Anet/NCSoft, from players like me who purchase Gems with real money.
3) Someone trading their time for in-game items does not help a company to profit. Someone trading their cash for in-game items does.
4) And yes, the guy who got the 100 Gems got it for free. Thus no revenue is generated from him.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
~~~ snip ~~~
To counter this whole post, I would like you to understand that the Gem Exchange brings in no money. Players like me bring in money by purchasing Gems. The reason why the exchange rates are so high at the moment, is because us paying players aren’t exchanging as much as non-paying players. The Gem Exchange is working efficiently and as intended.
the purpose of the exchange is to allow people to trade gold and gems.
the reason for its existence within this monetary machine is to transfer the desire and work of gold earning players towards gem store items, into real money.
Essentially allowing players with desire, and no money to still be monetizable by allowing them to trade in game effort/time with people who have and are willing to spend money for their ingame time and money.
the exchange rate being high isnt really that relvant to the system, other than how it influences how many gem store items are sold.
the rate essentially cancels out.
whether cash player gets 100000 gold for a dollar, or 1 gold for a dollar, the return to anet is still 1 dollar.and what actually gets that dollar is the fact that some player wanted some gem store item and was willing to work for it. either by working at their job, or working at playing the game for someone else willing to pay anet money.
Wrong again mate, but not on the core purpose of the Gem Exchange. Yes this tool allows non-paying players to access microtransactions they could otherwise not afford, or had no intention of using real money to obtain. Let’s dive into the flaws of your argument.
Non-paying players bring no money into the game, outside of the initial box price. They trade their in game efforts (which have no monetary value) with virtual extras. Gems in the pot of the exchange were already there in the beginning. Players who exchange Gold for Gems got them for free. They bring no additional revenue. This is a simple business principal.
For example, two people walk into a store. One has cash, while the other has a coupon for free merchandise. If the person with cash makes a purchase, only he is actually bringing in revenue to the business. With your though process, you’re thinking that the person with the coupon is making the store money too. This is where your ideas are flawed.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
~~~ snip ~~~
To counter this whole post, I would like you to understand that the Gem Exchange brings in no money. Players like me bring in money by purchasing Gems. The reason why the exchange rates are so high at the moment, is because us paying players aren’t exchanging as much as non-paying players. The Gem Exchange is working efficiently and as intended.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
I am not claiming that it is not “working as intended”. I am claiming that we DON’T KNOW if it’s working as intended. Please re read my previous post.
Actually, we always knew. If you had listened to our explanations, John wouldn’t have to come in here and correct you himself.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
~~~ snip ~~~
You seem to be missing the point of your own post. The Gem Exchange is indeed working as intended. Players determine the exchange rates, which are decided by an internal formula based on the ratio of Gems to Gold in the pot.
1) The more Gold -> Gems get exchanged, the more expensive it becomes. This helps Anet by being a Gold Sink
2) The more expensive the Gold -> Gems exchange becomes, Gems -> Gold becomes more profitable. This helps Anet by encouraging paying players to buy Gems to convert.
3) The more expensive the Gold -> Gems exchange becomes, there’s less incentive to convert in-game currency. So if these players want Gems, they need to buy it with real money. This helps Anet by increasing revenue for NCSoft.
All three are mechanics of the Gem Exchange. Each plays a part in helping drive the microtransaction revenue that sustains the game for all players. And yes, all are working as intended.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Keep that in mind when Anet brings out more raid-type events that require large group coordination.
That’s the whole point of this thread, in case you’ve managed to miss that over three pages. I have noticed a trend towards requiring “organized play” and I absolutely despise it. I am encouraging ANet in the strongest possible terms to avert the disaster of becoming just another raidista game and driving away all their customers who aren’t already playing WoW again.
Now if you don’t wish to participate, you’re free to play other content. You can get rewarded for doing your “solo” content all you want. But when you come to our “group” content, be prepared to succeed or fail as a group.
I think you don’t understand the meanings of the terms “solo” and “group.” Solo is stuff that you do alone, like the personal story. I HATE this content. If I want to play content like the Personal Story, I have single player games for that. Group content is content that requires multiple people. I love this content in vanilla GW2. It’s content where you can show up at any point in the content, help out, and receive rewards. This is great. The problem, as repeated numerous times throughout this thread in a way that only the most simple minded could manage to miss, is the increase in content that is not “pick up and go,” but that rather requires you to seek out a specific minority of maps and usually wait around before the event starts, going through all kinds of hassle because if you do try to just show up, then you’ll end up on a version of the map with a ton of people that have no interest in doing that type of content, and therefore will not help (while their presence prevents people who might want to help from joining your map), and making it impossible to “pick up and go” with the content, even if you know exactly what to do, even if all the people on the map who care to do the content know exactly what to do, and even if there are thousands of players out there who would like to do it and know what to do, but they are similarly scattered in small groups across the various maps.
You don’t need a guild raid or anything like that, just a simple guide for people to follow so they know which events to do. I.e. about as much organisation as you needed for the Queendale champ train.
It doesn’t take much organization, but it does require a decent number of people on the map to be interested in running the content. If any significant amount of people on the map are there for other purposes, then you can’t maintain critical mass to burn through the content and you start to lag behind. The Queensdale Train doesn’t have a timer on it, if it takes you twice as long to kill a boss then you just get to the next one slightly later. With this chain, if it takes you too long to kill moa, and then too long to kill toad, then even if someone activates the queen before the tooth despawns, she takes too long to kill for you to make the mines, perhaps even too long to kill to reach the race in time to hit the bonus.
You seem to be misunderstanding some things. Solo content is like your Personal Story. Dynamic events are those you can solo or fight with a group, with the only requirement is that you complete that one objective. Group events with tiered rewards are determined by the requirements met by a group. This means completing multiple objectives, some with chained objectives.
If you hate group events so much, why even bother playing them? No one is forcing you to do our content. I don’t like Dungeons, so I don’t do them. A friend of mine hates WvW, so he doesn’t do it. The choice is ultimately yours. Going further, because you want to participate in our group content without a group, you’re now asking for easy mode so you can get rewards for yourself. This doesn’t work that way. You want max rewards for doing only your part with the Great Wurm? You want max rewards for T4 Dry Top without completing all the events? This, my friend, is an issue of “Entitlement”.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
I can’t understand. Do people craft ascended weapons every day to feel like they need to grind for dragonite ore ?
You’re probably going to need a stack of Dragonite Ingots and Empyreal Stars for the upcoming Precursor crafting.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
3) therefore every single gem store item, must have been paid for in real money by some means or another.
Wrong. Anet created (for free) a large supply of Gems that were deposited into the Gem Exchange at the beginning of the game service. It could very well be that each and every Gold → Gem exchange to date was from the existing pot. Us paying players who exchange Gems for Gold, increases the pot size, and alters the exchange ratio. But just because we’re depositing more Gems into the pot, doesn’t automatically mean that the same Gems are now being given to non-paying players.
To help you understand this mechanic, say Anet deposited 5 million Gold and 1 million Gems into the pot before the game went live. Over the past ~2 years, there was movement of 500,000 Gems out of the pot, and 200,000 Gems put back in via players like me. Not counting the Gems us paying players put back in, there’s still 500,000 free Gems that weren’t touched.
In other words, all Gold exchanged for Gems are free.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Just switch from dungeon running to world boss train. Instead of gold you’ll get ectos and instead of emp frags you’ll get dragonite ore.
Follow the timer or just look at map chat, people almost always link the WP to the next boss.
And I should do more Dungeon runs to get those loads of Empyreals. Haven’t touched a Dungeon since they nerfed Arah.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
I don’t want to join a guild. That was one of the great things that attracted me to this game, over other more organized games like WoW, the “pick up and play” aspect of it, that you could just join in on an event in progress, play your role, and get rewarded, without having to set up times in advance or other such nonsense. I’m here to PLAY, not to develop itineraries.
Keep that in mind when Anet brings out more raid-type events that require large group coordination. Naturally, the rewards will be unique to these runs, and you’ll feel forced to either 1) join a raid guild or 2) hope and pray a raid group has room for you to taxi.
Now if you don’t wish to participate, you’re free to play other content. You can get rewarded for doing your “solo” content all you want. But when you come to our “group” content, be prepared to succeed or fail as a group.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
There are two types of players that play Gw2:
Paying Customers and Non-paying customers:
1. Paying Customers are players that:
A. Use Real World cash to purchase gems.
B. Use in game gold to purchase gems.2. non-paying customers do not buy gems, either with real world cash, or gems.
You were SO close to understanding it! Allow me to try and simplify this for you one last time.
Paying customers – one who buys Gems with real money.
Non-paying customers – one who exchanges Gold for Gems.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
What’s the best way to farm in dry top?
Follow the zerg. There’s a pattern to the events, with some showing up one after another.
Otherwise, do World Boss runs each day. I’m overflowing in Dragonites, with twice as many Dragonite Ingots than Empyreal Stars.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
No one from Anet will really tell you what the requirements are. This is an internal security feature to prevent creditcard fraud.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Doesn’t Black Gate need people because they’re up against constant double teaming? If so, why don’t players transfer to T1?
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Rumors have it that the remaining Zephyr airships circled back and headed directly to Cantha for safety. If this is the case, I demand Anet allow me to accompany them as a guard. You know, to protect them from rogue siege turtles and juggernauts.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Let it go.
*Turns away and slams the door~~~~~~
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Just a thought that occured to me… Smooth Penguin and a few others seem to have latched onto “The User Agreement” as if it were some Kind of trump card.
Cosidering Smooth penguins Legal education I would assume since I have said a few times " it’s a legal position" that would be enough for him to understand what I am saying.
I will assume he does. As for the others trumpeting the " The user agreement" card. All that is, is a defence for Anet..if anything happens to it’s servers that allows for the loss of your gem or gold holdings.
Example.
Player A spends $10,000 in cash to buy Gems. After receiving the gems there through no fault of his own… he loses the gems, whether because there was an ourage… there was a server issue…etc..etc..etc… the sky turned red and the moon rose in the west… the gems went, and are irretrievably lost.
The Player tells Anet.
Anet investigates and reserving the right to not compensate Player A tells him that there is nothing to be done, the gems are gone.
He can say " I Paid $10,000 I want either my gems, or my money."
Now.
Anet MIGHT decide it is best to just pay the guy. Or decide to add the equivalent in gems to his account… but…
The language " Gems have no monetary value and only have entertainment value." is there, so that it can reserve the right to deny Player A’s claim of having a RIGHT to a refund.
They MIGHT grant one, or NOT. That is entirely up to Anet.
THAT is why the User agreement says " Gems have no monetary value."
it’s a legal position, not an economic one. Purely added to the agreement to shield it from lawsuits.
PS: So what I am agreeing to, when I click on the User agreement is that ..Legally, I will Not sue Anet if anything happens to My gems and Gold in game.
I am Not agreeing to some economic nonsense that what has economic monetary value ceases to have it while In My possession even when it does have it in reality.
Now I know how my professors felt when I didn’t understand concepts in class.
The portion of the User Agreement that I quoted basically spells out that everything is property of Anet/NCSoft. We own nothing, but rather are granted the privilege to access the content. You’re paying for entertainment when you “buy Gems”. Even so, the agreement also spells out that Anet/NCSoft has the full legal rights to void any Gems you have, without refund.
This doesn’t mean they act in such a way, as we’ve seen already. When there are issues with Gem Store items, Customer Support works with the players to refund the Gems, or return missing items. That’s the morally right thing to do. However, should they decide not to do any of that, there is no legal recourse to complain otherwise. You agreed that Gems and in game items have no value, and that you also agree that Anet/NCSoft can’t be held responsible should they take them all away from you.
Again, I’m not discounting the fact that YOU find Gold and Gems and even Time to have personal value, or that an apple has nutritional value, or that Transformers 4 is bad but has a lot of entertainment value. I am discounting your opinions that they hold monetary value.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.
this is their business model.
Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.
monetary value still works through transition.
if you can trade one apple for one orange, and you can sell apples for 2 dollars, oranges still have a monetary value through apples.
monetary value is the worth of the money you can obtain by trading the item. even if there is a step inbetween, it still has monetary value.
this is the premise of use of currencies between different countries.Which is precisely the reason the definition has “if sold” in it.
Noun 1. monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)
Yes, when you buy it from Anet it is sold to you.
Definition applies.
/sigh
Anet sold you the rights and privilege of enjoying their Entertainment. You own nothing of monetary value.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
~~~ snip ~~~
On the contrary, my background in business allows me to understand concepts and mechanics such as the Gem Exchange. Because Anet employees have explained how it works, I now know both how and why it works.
Please don’t misunderstand me when I point out your flaws. Because you didn’t realize that players aren’t buying Gems for real money from the Gem Exchange, your whole argument was invalid. And as I stated previously, your misapplied individual feelings of “value” is one of the reasons why you now assume that Gold has some sort of monetary value. I don’t doubt that you value Gold or Gems. I value them too, on a personal level.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
The User agreement does have you agree to non-sense.
The User Agreement is not non-sense. If you don’t agree to the terms, you don’t get to play the game.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.
this is their business model.
Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.
monetary value still works through transition.
if you can trade one apple for one orange, and you can sell apples for 2 dollars, oranges still have a monetary value through apples.
monetary value is the worth of the money you can obtain by trading the item. even if there is a step inbetween, it still has monetary value.
this is the premise of use of currencies between different countries.
The apple is free if you pick it yourself, so if you trade one orange for one apple, the value at hand is now fruit. If you eat the apple or orange, the value is now nutritional. If you go to a market, and sell the apple you picked, the apple now has monetary value. If I sold the apple to a store, it now has monetary value.
Gems are a virtual currency that doesn’t exist. Ergo, no monetary value.
Edit for typos.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.
this is their business model.
Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.
I actually see it a bit differently MT. With Gems, I say they have no monetary value, but rather Entertainment Value. I’m paying Anet for a service that entertains me. So the monetary value of the transaction ends once I paid Anet for the privilege to access the entertainment.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
The User agreement could say you agree that the sun rises in the west before you log in, That doesn’t mean they Just changed How the earth rotates.
The User agreement is a legal position, and Not even an incontrovertible one since many Eula have come under attack in courts of law, that are considering the fairness of making people agree to something after paying for an item, that is then not refundable.
Just tossing that out there. It is Not " The law" it is simply a legal position.
The User Agreement cannot impose definitions on terms that already have meaning.
Value is value. And the User agreement can say " gems have no value" or " Gold has no value." that doesn’t mean neither gems nor gold has value. It just means that is How Anet wants it.
As I said..they can make you agree to anything to log in and play the game, Just because they made you agree to it before you can log in and play doesn’t change the reality of economics.
You first need to understand economics before you can debate it.
I can forgive you for not understanding how the Gem Exchange or microtransactions work though. This isn’t something that there’s in-game hint or explanations to guide you on the inner workings of such areas. Players like me who either studied business, or have a firm grasp on business practices love to understand unique sales methods such as MMO microtransactions. There’s a psychology involved that defies normal logic, in terms of what an individual values personally, and spending habits. But I digress, my expertise isn’t the reason for this debate. What matters here is that the Gem Store works, and that it helps players who want to exchange in-game Gold for Gem for free.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
No…Just because there is no " Buy Gold" Button doesn’t mean they are not selling gold.
Yes it does because buying gold and exchanging gold for gems is NOT the same thing. That’s not just a subtle distinction either. It has RL implications for how they run their business.
Ok, If I Buy 800 gems for $10, and then use the gems to Buy In Game Gold. I Just Bought in game gold for $10.
Two things = to the same thing are = to each other. is a basic law of mathematics.
If A = B, and B= C, then A = C.
If you are having a hard time understanding that, maybe trying to explain Monetary value is a bit ambitious, even for me.
This is a fallacy. You’re trying to apply math to something that isn’t related to math. The reason why we’re having a hard time explaining things to you, is because you have the incorrect belief that you’re correct. Like when I was younger, I believed in Santa Claus, because I would get Christmas presents and a hand written letter from him. Just because I believed it doesn’t make me right.
In our case, we know we’re right, because our arguments are based on facts, with business and economic principals to boot.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
~~~ snip ~~~
Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.
Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.
With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.
In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.
How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.
As per the User Agreement, Gems have no value. When you’re buying Gems, you’re not buying something physical, nor are you buying something of value. You paid Anet for the privilege of accessing exclusive content that has Entertainment Value. Once the Gems are in your account, you have no rights to them, and Anet has every right to take it away from you at their discretion.
The User Agreement means that you cannot trade gems back into cash. That does not negate the initial monetary value Anet has placed on them of 800 for $10. Just b/c the value can fluctuate doesn’t mean it never exists.
I think you are lumping all monetary value into one circumstance and ignoring the rest.
Once you purchase the Gems, they no longer hold any value. You’re paying for the rights to acquire exclusive content, and Anet gives you these virtual credits to limit you on now much you can access. I could buy 4,000 Gems right now, and Anet would have every right to take it away without giving me a refund. Not to say that they would, but rather that they can.
You said and I quote:
You did not say “after initial purchase or beside rl cash purchases”.
The definition:
Noun 1. monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)
In this case the material worth is the 10 dollars traded for 800 gems, thus assigning a value to gems of said ratio.
What part of this is opinion?
The fact that Gems have no material worth, as per the User Agreement.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
~~~ snip ~~~
Let me point out another quote from you:
They make their money from selling you in game gold. Not Gems.
Because of this statement, you’ve proven that you don’t understand the business mechanics of the microtransaction store. Anet makes no money selling you in-game Gold. Anet makes money when you buy Gems.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
They make their money from selling you in game gold. Not Gems.
You need to read closer before you try to correct me.
If Anet has no in game gold to sell, then many of the people buying gems with real world cash will stop buying gems with real world cash.
Straw-man arguments are easy to demolish, but still do not deal with the real argument. Nice try though.
PS Just because you type in bold doesn’t make what you typed in bold true.
/sigh
You seem to be misunderstanding your own posts. Here’s your quote:
The Gold-> Gem converters paid for their Gems with Gold, which Anet now can sell to others In exchange for gems. Gems that the cash to gem purchasers bought with cash. THAT is the moment Anet gets it’s real world cash off a gold -> gem conversion.
The ONLY reason Anet has Gold to sell for gems to players that bought gems with cash is because a Player sold it’s Gold for gems.
1) Gold is NOT the only reason why I buy Gems.
2) Anet already deposited a finite amount of Gold and Gems into the Gem Exchange before the game started.
3) Anet makes money buy selling your Gems to access exclusive content.
Edit – pay close attention to your very first sentence
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!