Guild Wars 2

I have gone the Trappers route for survival on my power build. It is surprisingly effective as it sheds conditions quickly and has plenty of on demand stealth. The damage output is reduced but so far this is the only thief build I have found that can dish out direct damage AND be relatively tough to kill.

D/D celestial ele is ridiculously hard to kill if they are played in a competent manner. They also have the ability to nuke a thief in short order. Equally as painful are power mesmers that know what they are doing. Condi mesmers can destroy a thief with low condi removal.

FinalPatriot.8034:

As someone who plays a Mesmer for a main and also has a Thief alt, dagger storm is great tool to use against those clones. If you know it’s a PU/condi Mesmer, dagger storm + burst will be pretty effective. It doesn’t work worth crap against a power Mesmer though.

If it is a shatter build killing clones is fine. If it isn’t a shatter build, that spin will get you dead quick.

Control Points in the Borderlands

coglin.1867:

There are hundreds of threads with thousands of post clamoring, begging, or demanding new maps for 3 years. There is no way in the world I will buy your claim that no one wants new WvW maps.

That may be true but the last new WvW map we got was a bit of a disaster (EotM). Few WvW players like that map aside from farming. It is too big with long runs, too much PvE and odd mechanics that are gimmicky.

Even the last WvW map update was a mess. Does anyone like the control point system?

Most WvW players seem to really want a basic map designed to create fights between players, guilds and zergs. We want something meaningful even if symbolic to fight over (SM and keeps are the current hotspots for zergs and camps are great for roamers). When we die, a fast return to the action. The rest is fluff and often annoying fluff.

With the massive AC nerf, disablers are about the only way a less populated defending force can slow a zerg long enough for a fight. WvW isn’t EotM and disablers are meant to create longer fights and less PvD.

Trap gets sprung, reveal. Caltrop dodge hits someone, reveal. Shatter, reveal. Phantasm damages player, reveal. Basically any activated ability even ones with a delay should reveal on application of damage. No class should be able to apply damage and stay cloaked outside of the mechanic of the ability such as Cloak and Dagger or Steal.

WvW levels and masteries were post release

Necros make great small team anchors. For a couple guys roaming, go with a second mes that looks exactly like your friend if you want to maximize effectiveness.

While I think Trapper condi builds are underwhelming, condition damage should proc reveal. I would also add D/P in thief as well as the torch in mesmer need adjustment. Very few like to fight highly mobile classes that can spam stealth.

Upping the condi removal would be welcome. My other mains can shed conditions pretty regular but my thief builds are all condi-weak.

Technically this is a D/P build and uses P/P for support but it is actually a lot of fun… if you don’t mind dying a lot. I am on a 20:1 small fight kill ratio right now so it does work with practice. It isn’t nearly as good as some other builds in that regard but again this is a fun build not meant to be the most effective.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAoa6al0MhSnY5TwzJw/EH0EFvGShZYnnXQIoDgJMCA-TliDABkphwgHKAAm/Q4IAkkyPTVCqy+DfofQgTEAMq/AA-w

I trade Signet of Shadows out for various utility skills before a fight. It is there just to make running places more tolerable. Those utility skills include Refuge, Tripwire (do not underestimate how powerful this trap is since it can give you a massive opening for a backstab), smoke screen (nice against range or when you can fight inside of it) or Assassin’s Signet and pop it right before a steal/backstab.

euroz.7190:

PP is not viable, PP is for keks, nothing more. Only an noob dies to PP, its extremely easy to shut down.

P/P is currently situational against certain builds such as pure melee, necros, trapper, etc. I use it to augment D/P since it allows me to drop 6k to 10k from Unload at range. While I don’t think it makes a good main, as a backup it is still very lethal.

What if most AoE and ground targeted attacks is brought down to a range or 600 at least 900? Currently, we have staff AoE attacks with some of the better range in the game while most targeted ranged weapons (shortbows, pistols, axes, etc) work at a significantly smaller range.

Add in the Stability nerf and we now have fights that look more like a dance. While I think the former hammer train style wasn’t ideal, this new range blast style is no better and actually worse in terms of enjoyment as fights tend to drag on circling each other. The current settings also leave entire builds out of the mix in large scale fights because they have few ways to frontline damage.

They already nerfed several targeted weapons from 1200 down to 900. Why not take a whack at the ranged AoE spam?

vespers.1759:

Tell me about a time since release that mesmers and thieves have not been way over the top.

Go ahead I’ll wait. Reality is these two have been kitten since the very beginning and it will not be changing.

The thief has been nerfed into annoying but near harmless outside of very skilled players. The trapper thief is annoying and can be frustrating but is pretty easily managed as is the trapper ranger. The real problem here is Mesmers and stealth.

This issue still boils down to all damage should proc an instant reveal on its source. Caltrops on a dodge roll, reveal. Clone applies condi damage, reveal. Ranger drops trap and trap is sprung, reveal.

Keep in mind a solo roamer can keep two WPs contested in BL maps and keep three camps effectively flipped all at the same time. They can also completely cut off supplies to any enemy keep and in some cases all of them. That is a lot of PPT and havoc coming out of one player.

The most annoying roamers in the game lock up WPs that in turn get T3 objectives flipped. They also tie up enemies forcing them to keep watch, guard camps and escort.

A couple years ago someone posted a thread with a lot of great ideas for more WvW level ideas. It was a great thread and worth digging up again if someone can find it.

This is the build I am currently running in WvW and it is working pretty well but is extremely glassy so you have to pick your fights. You will die on this build but you can also carve up 2-3 players in a fight before they know what hit them.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAoa6al0MhSnY5TwzJw/EH0EFvGShZYnnXQIoDgJMCA-TliDABkphwgHKAAm/Q4IAkkyPTVCqy+DfofQgTEAMq/AA-w

I trade Signet of Shadows out for various utility skills before a fight. It is there just to make running places more tolerable. Those utility skills include Refuge, Tripwire (do not underestimate how powerful this trap is since it can give you a massive opening for a backstab), smoke screen (nice against range or when you can fight inside of it) or Assassin’s Signet and pop it right before a steal/backstab.

Vital Shot – Bit faster fire rate
Body Shot – Extend range to 1200 allowing it to be a “catch the target” shot
Unload – Ricochet always to three targets adjust damage accordingly
Head Shot – Increase the daze time slightly
Black Powder – Leave alone

The complete lack of condi management would make this build unplayable in WvW or sPvP. Lyssa runes might solve that problem but you will take a hit on DPS.

The build above is more group friendly. This one is old school and more solo/small scale friendly.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQJASRjMdQXIWGCmdAnIG6BKtNC/fwCgPICwdvHiBA-TVCEAB7eBAcS5HXKBVU9HJeCAtprAgDFQM7P8wBEAA-w

Builds might as a fight goes on until the sustained damage output is pretty significant. The hammer still has lots of control in a fight. 1v1 fights aren’t easy with players that know the wind-ups of a warrior but in fights of 3 or more, this build is very hard to bring down and cannot be ignored.

I had two instances of falling over dead with over 15k HP over the weekend and nothing appeared in the combat log to explain the damage. At first I thought it was a bug or built up damage that hit all at once but after the second time noticed both hits came from a Dragon Hunter. Strange that it didn’t show up in my combat log.

Here is the rub with the class currently. It has almost no AoE, its group combo fields are relatively useless, has few tank abilities, no quality elites and the class relies heavily on positional direct damage. The class has also not kept up with the Jones either. Thieves used to have the highest damage output, best stealth and highest mobility. Now I can barely keep pace with half the classes in the game and Mesmer’s still have more effective combat stealth. Basically the thief has become outdated in the current AoE/Condi meta.

The only build I have running really well right now is a pure zerk d/d with either d/p or p/p as a secondary weaponset. It is a pure skill build to maximize damage output and cherry pick fights. Any mistake is a near instant death. Fun, but incredibly fragile.

Yawn, another vanity video. If a video doesn’t have a breakdown of how the skills work together AND include losses, it is a pointless vanity video.

The trapper thief and ranger has not been as big of a deal so far to me since they have to get close and or can be ranged effectively. The condi application levels can be pretty impressive but so far only my zerk builds are struggling against them.

That said no class should be able to apply significant damage (direct or condi) without popping a reveal. None.

Too much in the box thinking posted so far, sure a Druid might not be souped up for generic zerg play but for havoc squads, guild groups and skirmish teams where builds are built to synergize with a team for maximum impact, the Druid could be a game changer of sorts. Allowing a guardian or elementalist to free up condi clears or direct healing for damage.

I have solo’d keeps in the past with Guardian, Warrior and Thief. Never done SM though. Not sure how easy it would be after all the recent patches. I would think most classes can do it so long as the build doesn’t have to leave the area or stealth for too long. Towers are ridiculously easy.

A lot of players have been waiting for a true healer class. I can see GWEN becoming GWERN if the Druid plays as well as it reads.

I know which one we probably won’t see much of… Daredevil.

Ricochet is what made P/P fun and worth running. Put that either as a trait or change Unload so that it has it built in. I would add that the #1 attack should probably be revamped. I actually like Body Shot but the immobilize should be a bit stronger.

An oddity in this game as a whole is that the Staff has better range than either the Shortbow (Ranger included) or the Pistol for most classes. It makes no logical sense and lessons these weapon sets tremendously.

Driften.8716:

Whats not appropriate is the level of neglect that the Thief gets. You can only kick a dead horse for so long…

While the thief is in a pretty bad place right now, lets not forget our Ranger brothers. Since pre-release they were nerfed into uselessness only to see a revival in the last year.

If you are patient, stick it out, let them continually nerf the class often with stealth nerfs, make promised patches that they pull at the last minute, live through a dedicated balance patch to your class that only improves underwater weapons… you may one day live long enough to see the thief get raised from the ashes to be mediocre.

I took a short break after years of playing and came back to see the new HoT changes. I was shocked when they deleted my favorite build. I am not buying HoT unless there is some compelling change to the gameplay. Being a hardcore GW and GW2 player (over 10k hours combined), hard to walk away at this point.

Hopefully Camelot Unchained will be a better game or some other MMO will hit. At this point I would be happy with Destiny on the PC.

Ricochet’s main ability was for a thief to put pressure on multiple targets. P/P was very balanced with that trait. It did enough damage not to be ignored but not so much that everyone cried on the forums about it. Not only that they removed one of the more fun builds to play. Straight up deleted it.

RNG or not, they broke this build. Unfortunately 20% isn’t going to fix it. No other build in the game seems as fun to me and GW2 lost a bit of its soul when they removed this.

The entire server concept is prior generation thinking that wasn’t even in GW. The fact they pulled it out of PvE is proof of what a colossally bad idea it is. EotM nor sPvP adheres to this architecture.

As has been discussed in dozens of former threads, a Guild Alliance system would be vastly superior to the existing server system. Each match guilds would be grouped together with preference towards their alliances and they would face two other such groups with the selection engine having some preference to guild alliances that are at war with each other. Unaligned players/guilds (mercenaries) would fill in on matches to help achieve a better balance.

Each reset the system would shuffle the matchups around. The same system would weigh typical guild play hours into its matching system so as to create a better (not perfect) off hour presence in each matchup.

I am on TC looking at SoS from the outside and they almost always have a decent sized crew on in WvW. TC does have a larger NA Prime so it pushes SoS back on its heels a bit but SoS has the numbers to keep it enjoyable. To me that is the important part of a server. Avoid servers with several dead population hours and in that regard SoS seems to be pretty lively most of the time.

It is a bit odd that GW2 is the only MMO I can think of where players that stealth don’ t lose significant movement speed and mobility. I am sure others exist but the vast majority make stealth slow and after an opening attack very difficult to reapply.

Puck.9612:

That is a terrible idea. That philosophy is why ranger shortbow went from being a solid weapon to a complete piece of garbage.

Actually this example kind of makes the point. If a weapon/skill/trait is under utilized it should be adjusted upward (slightly). If it is over utilized, it should be adjusted downward (slightly). In this case if they go too far and people stop using it, they would adjust it upward realizing they went too far.

The Ranger Shortbow (I mained a ranger for a long time) was a series of nerfs some inadvertent (the animation nerf) and some just plain stupid (the range nerf… this one still kittenes me off) but there is no mechanism in place to correct those nerfs. Same with P/P for thieves. When they removed Ricochet because it didn’t fit into the new trait line well, they effectively removed an entire play style from the game. There will be no hurry to “fix” that issue since it doesn’t effect “balance”.

In the “balance” mentality when players stop using a weapon/skill/trait, it effectively becomes balanced because it is no longer upsetting balanced play so it isn’t perceived to be a problem. This is why almost every class has weapon sets, skills and traits that few experienced players select even after years and hundreds of updates have gone by.

After years of trying to “balance” builds in WvW, might be time to try a different method which will create more diversity of builds and thus more enjoyable play.

Haralin.1473:

The most people who are still roaming are Thiefs or Mesmers as a non stealth charakter i barely see other roamers like Warriors, Guardians or Necros.

I have tried running alternative builds since returning but I am about to throw in the towel. I am rusty as hell but the current mesmer meta is demoralizing. Mesmers are everywhere and seem to have displaced every other roaming class. I saw one trapper ranger and maybe two thieves roaming last night. Everything else was mesmer or gank squads.

Starfall.6425:

I have not read a single constructive suggestion concerning WvW-Roaming and how to balance this specific aspect (without breaking pve or pvp). Most of the changes demanded here would simple break multiple builds or condi alltogether.

Apply reveal on the use of a skill/trait that applies a damaging condition to a player. The other option as I see it is to tone down how much conditioning a player can do from stealth. Right now condi/stealth builds get their cake (stealth) and get to eat it as well (damage without reveal).

bloodletting wolf.2837:

With your over 5k hours I would have hoped that you wouldn’t spout off about conditions only needing 2 stats since it is so untrue. You absolutely need precision but you will just ignore that part I’m sure. In the time that you have been complaining in this thread you could have come up with a counter. If you don’t believe there is one that is entirely on you. Now if you will excuse me I’m going to hunt some more Mesmers.

There are many condi builds that run just fine with either precision/cond dmg or just cond dmg. Duration is a fine bump for low cleanse fights, but most heavy condi application builds derive enough cond duration from food, runes and a handful of other options to forgo spec’ing it directly. In contrast, most crit builds must spec power (base damage), crit chance (at least most of the time) and ferocity (damage scaler). Then that damage has to cut through toughness.

This all runs contrary to the topic… some builds allow excellent damage output without procing a reveal. A good PU condi Mesmer or Trapper Thief can effectively damage players and remain unseen most of the fight. Roaming in T2 has effectively become a game of dodge the mesmers or roll one.

dancingmonkey.4902:

This assessment that you need more stats for direct damage then condition builds do is false. I have plenty of builds that do as much damage in soldiers gear that most condition builds do in dire gear.

It is easy for power/crit builds to output as much damage. It is practically impossible for power/crit builds to output as much damage and remain stealthed. Condi is always going to have an upside in its current form because it bypasses toughness, doesn’t proc reveal and doesn’t need to be three stat to be highly effective.

IMO Anet should have treated condi damage just like regular damage with cleanses/removal only effecting non-damaging conditions. In this case, Reveal would pop at the application of condi damage. They would likely have to rebalance condi damage but would make for overall better fights.

BOA smid.1783:

Straegen.2938:

SoS has a great OCX but their NA gets run over by numbers.

You realize that this is changing daily, right? We aren’t getting “run over” this week nearly as bad as last week…and I bet next week the picture will look different again. We’re a HIGH population server fighting against VERY HIGH and FULL servers…of course we’re going to be outnumbered. Does that stop us from showing up and holding our own when we can? No….one day people will stop being scared of what last week was like and realize they can be part of the improvement we will see next week instead :/

I was not criticizing SoS. My statement was informing the OP what he is walking into if he decides to go with SoS not what might happen. SoS is currently a strong OCX server that does a lot of PvD in the off hours and has smaller population during NA prime than TC. What will SoS be a week or month from now, nobody knows. Will TC lose guilds/players that don’t want to play in T2 making T2 NA Prime more competitive, possibly. Is SoS worth transferring to, sure same for FA, Mags, etc. Just depends on when the OP plays and what they are looking for in a server.

JediYoda.1275:

From what has been said about the new map we are getting its much bigger than the current borderland map we have now.

I saw that but I am not sure they are going to scale up the population per map. If the maps end up being EotM sized or larger, it won’t be good even with the new mechanics. Too much running makes players want to risk less since nobody likes running for five plus minutes to fight for 30s.

Tehkegz.8512:

I will speak with Doc, thanks for the info

Unfortunately sitting tight isn’t really an option for me. My best friend just got the game and I’m now sitting on a full server he can’t join I even set alarms every night to check at 3 and 5 am.

I feel your pain on this one. I am on TC with my other guild mates on YB. They weren’t playing the game when I moved and when they came back nobody could switch since both servers are Full so we are stuck unless we all move out of a top tier server and pay a hefty tax to do so.

SoS has a great OCX but their NA gets run over by numbers. FA has a long history of having a nice population variety but currently stuck with a strong NA server and a strong OCX server. I was on Mags for a long time and loved their roaming/open field fighting spirit but not sure if it is there anymore.

Anything below T3 is a non-starter for me and I played for 2.5 years in T3 or lower before moving up. I cannot imagine it has gotten better.

dancingmonkey.4902:

You say stagnant, yet in NA a few recent shifts occured, after post upon post, and thread upon thread, complaining about staleness. Once some shifts occured, all I saw was post upon post, and thread upon thread crying about uneven mathups.

This is a perfect example of why a guild alliance system would be better. Currently significant server position changes are usually the result of a server implosion. Those implosions are usually because a major guild leaves to another server to mix up the stale matches. This causes one server in a tier to suddenly become WAY too strong for its rating and another to become WAY too weak. So either players complain that nothing changes or that it changed way too much. Given the way GLICKO works it takes several matches sometimes months of matches for parity to be established. Those that have been around long enough remember the great Kaineng run and fall. In a Guild Alliance system each week players/guilds are re-aligned so players will always have a very good chance of avoiding a lop sided match.

dancingmonkey.4902:

The problem is, this proposed idea will do nothing to prevent staleness. Strong group that work and win will stick together to continue doing so. Due to that, I do not buy any argument suggesting this will prevent staleness.

A player or guilds friends may remain relatively constant but their enemies won’t. Each reset will bring a fresh set of guilds to fight against. This also creates another interesting angle to the game which is the politics of guilds and their alliances. How long can alliance hold it together especially when guilds are fighting for their ranking on a scoreboard?

The other current issue this addresses is the entire timezone problem. Currently a server with a strong off hour presence dooms their NA into a death match. Off hour zergs PvDs all the maps, run up the score and leaves their lessor NA to fight one or two strong NA servers. That is boring for all involved IMO unless a player likes PvD and those players should go to EotM.

The real answer is that their engine cannot support more players on a map at least in its current state. If the fights got any bigger the lag would be extraordinary. Players already feel it in T1 during three way SM fights and often it persists when two large zergs clash.

If the maps got bigger, the chance for larger fights to ensue thus lagging out their engine would be a routine occurrence.

Clownmug.8357:

People should be used to this by now considering thieves were doing it for almost 3 years.

No they weren’t. Thieves were either super glassy and required melee attacks/reveals to do their damage or they went D/P which was high stealth but wet noodle damage and those were also fairly glassy. The condi variants were somewhat dangerous but they simply couldn’t apply sustained condi damage without a reveal. With the exception of the trapper build in the thief class, they have to be seen to apply their damage. Their burst also came with the condition they ran zerk or equivalent.

Now we have condi as strong as it has ever been attached to builds that do most of their damage passively. No thief build worth playing in the past has ever been as dangerous, tanky and stealthy as the current crop of stealth/condi builds. An old school D/D would get nuked by a decent PU today as would a D/P.

TheLastNobody.8319:

I don’t really think it’s a Condi problem but more of a stealth and mobility problem.

One without the other isn’t a problem. The problem with condi is that it doesn’t proc reveal on passive application so any class that does not directly apply condis can effectively stay invisible while damaging a player.

Stealth with direct damage, not a problem. Condi without stealth, annoying but workable. Combine the two along with a blocks, jumps, pulls, etc and you end up with 4-5 guys running around playing find the mesmer.

Taking a page out of Diablo, Path of Exile and the like. I would like an upcoming tournament to level the playing field by temporarily removing all existing gear and reset all skills/traits in WvW for the length of the tournament.

The only way to get gear during the tournament would be from drops. They could add in special drop skins as an added incentive. The only way to get skills/traits is to level them.

I know it is wishful thinking and may not be technically feasible in GW2 but I have really enjoyed the life that these tournament resets bring to other games. I know my friends would come back for some tournament WvW play if it were like this.

dancingmonkey.4902:

This sounds like it will tear player from a community of players and friends they know, by punishing them for not being in a large WvW guild. What is worse, is that is does this to suit nothing more than your subjective perception of balance.

In a guild based system players can align themselves with other guilds/friends and the system will place them together for each match. That system is actually more friend oriented than the current server based system which locks entire servers out. If a player chooses to remain unaligned, they will be placed in the match that can best use them. It is actually a simple system and vastly superior to the current mess. Even GW1 didn’t have server division like this and PvE has been moving away from it for a while.

All balance in a game is subjective but the current system is clearly lopsided and stagnant. The best guilds/players cannot even fight each other. We don’t even know who the best guilds and players are.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I still don’t understand why everyone has a problem with Mesmer. I’ve been playing static discharge engineer a setup that everyone tells me will get wrecked by a Mesmer and I win 90% of the time. Stealth is not a problem. Some of the skills that apply conditions need to be looked at but not conditions themselves. I view this as a casual player base that needs to LTP.

If you have a specific build/class that works, that is NOT a hard counter to their play. I also know your build very well and any decently played PU will carve you up. Even if you are the second coming of players, you cannot kill one unless they overplay their hands. Then we get to the REALLY nasty side of their builds… they synergize with other mesmers incredibly well. Get two of them together and they can land 20+ stacks of confusion before you activate a skill.

and before more of the LTP crap starts flying, I have more time in WvW than 99% of players (5k hours almost all in WvW and all classes fully leveled/geared). I mostly roam and duel. I am not the best player out there but I can hold my own against most.

Synosius.9876:

Its not surprising the game is turning into such a mess when you realize all their feed back is filtered through these terrible forums.

With a few exceptions the “feedback” on this forum is mostly ignored.

gennyt.3428:

I get what you’re saying about too much AoE, specially those of the circular variety. Line and cone AoEs require a bit more thought and you can’t easily just blanket the ground with them. The problem is compounded by no diminishing returns on hard CC and an extremely forgiving rally system tbh. In the end, GW2’s combat scales up really poorly (which is why I rarely enjoy blobby fights).

When you think about how much is going on, GW2 is actually a pretty impressive engine processing all those AoEs, positional, direct, conditional, etc items going on. I don’t think they thought out WvW very much when they designed their skill system. They were clearly building a PvE game with small scale PvP and their design works very well in those environments. As soon as AoE had to scale to 50, 100 or more targets and was being used by most of the players in a fight, engine problems along with the problems of dialing in skills that utterly can dwarf the effectiveness of any single target skill became obvious. Like most development though getting a cat back in the bag is almost impossible and requires logical limits to manage the issues rather than solve them.