Guild Wars 2

WRay.2391:

Go play some train simulator. You will get enough economy there. I’m asking for what I was advertised. Don’t teach others what to do and you will not hear where to go.

For a person claiming to have an economics major, your lacking professional integrity and business sense. Also, you probably didn’t read the terms and conditions when you bought this game (or before you bought this game) which states that it is subject to changes. As a business person you should have known this clause. Also, your complaining about grind which you haven’t stated which part of grinding.

In the advertisements it did not state that you did not need to grind for BiS gear or cosmetics. If you really did your research you would have known that they stated there should be a grind for cosmetics they never mentioned about BiS gear expect that Legendary should be a long term goal. It stated that you did not need to grind for levels. It did state however there wouldn’t be a gear treadmill, and there isn’t one. They added ascended, but they are not adding more also with Legendary being BiS permanently there is no gear treadmill as well.

So far they have kept with their advertisements. What is the problem other than you interpreting the meaning wrong?

WRay.2391:

@Suddenflame.2601

Smart economy guy, comparing different genres. You didn’t answer about drop rates from genres you were comparing. “They are all RPGs”, so why do they have different drop rates ?

Same genre as I explained above. MMORPGs can be reduced to RPGs. MRPGS share the same qualities as an MMORPG except for the persistent world aspect which by all grounds can easily be achieved by providing the MRPG a dedicated servers.

WRay.2391:

Suddenflame.2601:

WRay.2391:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

If they added say:
30% chance per dungeon boss to drop a random Account Bound exotic item.
Last bosses have a 25% chance to drop an Ascended AB item.

The game would be more fun. Here’s why:

-More shots at instant gratification.
- Livens up boss kills in dungeons.
- Gives more stuff to toss in the mystic toilet and doesn’t hurt the market on items as they won’t be sellable.
- Allows people to gear even for exotics without literally just having to spend gold on it all.
- Wouldn’t be TOO fast since the stats would be random and usually people want specific item types/stats.

Literally this would make me run dungeons a LOT more. They don’t have to make everything tradable just to let it drop and I think that’s one of the biggest issues we’re seeing and why stuff has such low drop rates…

You do realize what you suggest would totally destroy the economy? At 30% drop rate of exotics inflation in the economy would occur drastically as people would just salvage them constantly. Also at 30% drop rate people would just farm there rather than buy items off TP. There is a lot more factors to an economy than you realize.

Your looking for instant gratification which in the short-run is good but in the long run (in this case wouldn’t be that long) would cause more trouble than good. Look at this way getting sex with a random person is instant gratification. You get into a relationship with a GF for a Long term gratification though. Its something you work on and build towards and than maintain.

Who cares about economy. I wasn’t buying economic simulator. Rare items should be rare enough, but reachable without such amount of grind. And grind should be FUN and CHALLENGING, not brainless skill 1 click.

A large portion of the player base cares about the economy. Rare items wouldn’t be rare if they were guaranteed. There hasn’t been a challenging MMO to date thus far since all mechanics in MMOs are simplistic. Only challenge that appears in MMO is when it comes to PVP. If a rare is reachable with very little gold then it is not rare. For instance go out and try to buy a painting by Leonardo Da Vinci. Its going to cost a lot cause its rare. Go out and buy a pencil its cheap cause its not rare. Economics 101 do I have to go back to the basics with you?

Expect to pay a lot more for items that are harder to obtain. The economy is a market economy is based on how much gold there is in the economy and how easy the item is to obtain determines the price of the object. So an item that is rare is going to be worth more than an item that isn’t. So if you input a huge amount of money into the economy but don’t change the how easy it is to obtain an item the price of that item is going to increase (this is called inflation). If you keep the same amount of money in the economy but change the ease of acquirement of item than the price of that item will fall making it not rare any more.

There is your economics 101 if you need more information please don’t be afraid to ask because your asking to destroy the economy. Oh also when that occurs the reason why you wanted those items (for selling) would be gone as well.

Telling one more time if you didn’t get it: I don’t care about economy here. One of my masters is economy. I didn’t buy economy simulator. I don’t care if TP will be erased at all. Just give me no grind way to get BiS stat wise as was advertised in the beginning. Then create any rare crap as skins. Please read before answer.

I did read as my first sentence was that the majority of the players do care. If you don’t want an economy go play a single player game or a Coop-game or go play Diablo 3 after March then. You will get everything you wanted without bringing down the community.

If you do not want to play a different game then adapt and stop complaining about Ascended cause its not going any where so adapt and overcome. Failure to adapt just makes you look unprofessional especially since you say you have a Major in Economics.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Incorrect. The reward is completely necessary when going from Exotic to Ascended if you play wvw.

It is not necessary. A person in masterwork armour could pawn a person in exotic armour as it has been done many times before. You apparently do not play WvW enough. There is hardly any instance that your on par with someone else skill level. In WvW your more likely to be part of the zerg therefore your rank of armour will have very little effect on the whole. Also, WvW is competitive Server vs. server not person vs. person level.

Yet another person claiming that a clear gear advantage isn’t an advantage. Your game has a gear treadmill now, brah. And it will continue with legendary armor, lol

Legendary Armour has always been known to be coming. Also ascended is not that significant like seriously at this point of the game a large portion of the players have ascended weapons…. look what happened when those first came in did WvW suddenly break? nope it did not. Lots of people are getting Ascended armour did WvW break Nope so far it hasn’t. That’s because it truly doesn’t matter as the situation where it does matter are not that important to the whole. In a zerg fight your ascended armour is not going to hold up to 10 people hitting you at once. Your going to go down no matter what. Also that state buffs sure are a buff but not as great as Rare to Exotic but you still see people wearing Rares in WvW and winning against people in Exotics and Ascended. Skill > Gear

edit: this is going too far off topic though as the state of ascended in WvW does not effect the grind or RNG.

ronpierce.2760:

SkyShroud.2865:

it will be hard to find a correlation that having ascended gears in wvw is necessary when numbers alone is capable of shadowing everything

A thief can let you know pretty quick in less than bis gear. :P

Regardless of your armour a thief will let you know if your a zerker or not. A lvl30 nonzerker would stand up against a thief burst. Anything zerker vs thief is just dead.

ronpierce.2760:

Incorrect. The reward is completely necessary when going from Exotic to Ascended if you play wvw.

It is not necessary. A person in masterwork armour could pawn a person in exotic armour as it has been done many times before. You apparently do not play WvW enough. There is hardly any instance that your on par with someone else skill level. In WvW your more likely to be part of the zerg therefore your rank of armour will have very little effect on the whole. Also, WvW is competitive Server vs. server not person vs. person level.

KarateKid.5648:

I have less complaint with RNG and grind (although grind could stand to be tuned down a bit) than I do bloody Diminishing Returns.

To clarify the grind comment – Grind doesn’t bother me if rewarding in general (not talking about “as long as I get what I want” – I mean getting something other than a 6cp piece of junk).

If your seeing DR I am sorry to say but you need to stop grinding (or botting). DR doesn’t kick in for hours of you killing monsters over and over again in a single area. So if you are seeing DR you been in the same area over and over killing the same creatures over and over. Cure for it is going to another area lol

Ashen.2907:

Suddenflame.2601:

Ashen.2907:

Suddenflame.2601:

In PW, FW, and WoW to even get to the fun you need the rewards.

The same can be true in GW2.

Also keep inmind that PW and FW are true F2P games without an initial buy in through a box purchase. The games are designed around grind while the cash shop provides means of shortcutting to the desired goal. Not a very good choice for comparison IMO.

GW2 you can play any content as long as your max level, but you don’t need the rewarded gear to be successful to see more of the content (expect FOTM but it was designed and told to be that way). Nothing is prohibiting my lvl20 thief from entering WvW. There is nothing prohibiting a warrior lvl80 in masterwork armour from entering any of the games content. That is not the same as WoW, PW, and FW which requires you to have the rewarded gear to see more content.

The comparison is between MMORPGs and their design choice of gear gated content compared to nongated content so it is relevant.

You said, “to get to the fun.”

The fun, for me at least, is running round in the game world playing through various content, enjoying the combat mechanics, at max level…using BiS gear. In order to, “get to the fun,” the rewards are needed.

You can enjoy the content (if you enjoy the content), enjoy the combat mechanics (if you like the combat mechanics), and be at max level without having rewards. BiS gear you need rewards but if that’s what it takes for you to be happy I just have to say that is pretty shallow.

Ashen.2907:

Suddenflame.2601:

In PW, FW, and WoW to even get to the fun you need the rewards.

The same can be true in GW2.

Also keep inmind that PW and FW are true F2P games without an initial buy in through a box purchase. The games are designed around grind while the cash shop provides means of shortcutting to the desired goal. Not a very good choice for comparison IMO.

GW2 you can play any content as long as your max level, but you don’t need the rewarded gear to be successful to see more of the content (expect FOTM but it was designed and told to be that way). Nothing is prohibiting my lvl20 thief from entering WvW. There is nothing prohibiting a warrior lvl80 in masterwork armour from entering any of the games content. That is not the same as WoW, PW, and FW which requires you to have the rewarded gear to see more content.

The comparison is between MMORPGs and their design choice of gear gated content compared to nongated content so it is relevant.

Afya.5842:

ronpierce.2760:

All this game IS is kittening economics. There’s no real game to it because nothing is really obtainable without sinking tons of time and money into it. And that’s… pretty much it.

Sinking tons of time is fine, if you get something back.

Games are time sinks, and you play them to receive fun in return. So why play a game for any other reason? If you don’t find a task fun why perform that task?

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

Sirendor.1394:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Just because some games have even worse designers doesn’t make the rng and grind in gw2 acceptable…. It just means it’s not the worst contender. Also GW2 is aimed for a us/eu audience, the audiences who least enjoy long terrible grinds.

Name one MMORPG that has better RNG and grind?

That isn’t hard. Guild Wars 1.

Explain why to you that it has better RNG and grind.

No, don’t explain it, because you will take all this time to explain it and they’ll use a 1 sentence come back to discredit you with 0 back-up or just tell you its an opinion. We’ve been over this already and they’ll just kitten you off. Save yourself the time.

I haven’t used a single one liner against a person’s opinion of why they think a certain game is better in grind and RNG. If you make a sound argument for the reason why I will respond in kind with what I think about it and usually provide a mini summary of what i gathered from that reading. For example the person on the first page about party/squad loot distribution.

WRay.2391:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

If they added say:
30% chance per dungeon boss to drop a random Account Bound exotic item.
Last bosses have a 25% chance to drop an Ascended AB item.

The game would be more fun. Here’s why:

-More shots at instant gratification.
- Livens up boss kills in dungeons.
- Gives more stuff to toss in the mystic toilet and doesn’t hurt the market on items as they won’t be sellable.
- Allows people to gear even for exotics without literally just having to spend gold on it all.
- Wouldn’t be TOO fast since the stats would be random and usually people want specific item types/stats.

Literally this would make me run dungeons a LOT more. They don’t have to make everything tradable just to let it drop and I think that’s one of the biggest issues we’re seeing and why stuff has such low drop rates…

You do realize what you suggest would totally destroy the economy? At 30% drop rate of exotics inflation in the economy would occur drastically as people would just salvage them constantly. Also at 30% drop rate people would just farm there rather than buy items off TP. There is a lot more factors to an economy than you realize.

Your looking for instant gratification which in the short-run is good but in the long run (in this case wouldn’t be that long) would cause more trouble than good. Look at this way getting sex with a random person is instant gratification. You get into a relationship with a GF for a Long term gratification though. Its something you work on and build towards and than maintain.

Who cares about economy. I wasn’t buying economic simulator. Rare items should be rare enough, but reachable without such amount of grind. And grind should be FUN and CHALLENGING, not brainless skill 1 click.

A large portion of the player base cares about the economy. Rare items wouldn’t be rare if they were guaranteed. There hasn’t been a challenging MMO to date thus far since all mechanics in MMOs are simplistic. Only challenge that appears in MMO is when it comes to PVP. If a rare is reachable with very little gold then it is not rare. For instance go out and try to buy a painting by Leonardo Da Vinci. Its going to cost a lot cause its rare. Go out and buy a pencil its cheap cause its not rare. Economics 101 do I have to go back to the basics with you?

Expect to pay a lot more for items that are harder to obtain. The economy is a market economy is based on how much gold there is in the economy and how easy the item is to obtain determines the price of the object. So an item that is rare is going to be worth more than an item that isn’t. So if you input a huge amount of money into the economy but don’t change the how easy it is to obtain an item the price of that item is going to increase (this is called inflation). If you keep the same amount of money in the economy but change the ease of acquirement of item than the price of that item will fall making it not rare any more.

There is your economics 101 if you need more information please don’t be afraid to ask because your asking to destroy the economy. Oh also when that occurs the reason why you wanted those items (for selling) would be gone as well.

Sirendor.1394:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Just because some games have even worse designers doesn’t make the rng and grind in gw2 acceptable…. It just means it’s not the worst contender. Also GW2 is aimed for a us/eu audience, the audiences who least enjoy long terrible grinds.

Name one MMORPG that has better RNG and grind?

That isn’t hard. Guild Wars 1.

Explain why to you that it has better RNG and grind.

Afya.5842:

Suddenflame.2601:

Afya.5842:

RNG is bad in GW2 because precursor drop everywhere. I wouldn’t mind people getting BDS the first time in SOO because they at least took the effort to go in the dungeon. But thing is not the same in GW2, it is possible to get precursor @100AP, in queensdale. It makes me jelly. And fotm RNG is now worse because it feels the same chance of getting skin/box from 1x to 4×.

Precursor dropping everywhere with different chances of dropping is so that every type of player has a chance to get a precursor. By limiting it and removing it from a subsection of players is something that Anet does not want to do. So if you can come up with a system that would allow all types of players be able to get a precursor I bet Anet would be thankful.

The reason why FOTM is designed that way is because 1x is where skilled play begins and rewards for doing it where as 1-9 are just practice. Anything above 1x is about the challenge rather than the reward. They added exclusive items for higher fractals, but drop chance is low for them but they still about the challenge in comparison to the reward. Its designed more so for people with my mentality of Fun does not need loot.

I won’t disagree that open world players should have a chance of getting precursor. However I think the drop rate should scale more with difficulty. Farming in orr/frostgorge should have a much much higher chance than in 1-15 zones. Make it so if you want precursor, farm in 80 zones. Currently the chance is so small everywhere you can say it’s lim->0 in queensdale and lim->0 in orr.

I disagree with your statement or their direction on fotm. Harder contents need better loot to justify the extra work.

That statement was not about what I want but what it is currently. I would agree with you on the fat that harder content should present greater and better rewards for those who desire such but must be related to how hard the content really is.

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

Harbard.5738:

ronpierce.2760:

If you can play an MMO with absolutely 0 rewards, what is most peoples’ “fun factor”, that’s fine, but in that case you’d enjoy just about any game well designed or not… You’re a rarity, and frankly a lazy game designers delight.. x.X

Oh yeah, because it’s not totally lazy to make a game that’s just like a food dispenser that trickles down rewards instead of making a game that is engaging on it’s own and doesn’t need you to bribe you with illusory gains of money/shinies.

See, it’s way harder to design a really good game with really engaging gameplay than set up loot tables for you to roll on.

I agree. Challenging content over easy loot dispenser

Ugh you’re so dense lol. What is CHALLENGING about hours of farming gold? All the other nonbuyable stuff isn’t hard to get it’s just grindy. The only CHALLENGE is being able to bare how boring the grind is to ever make it through it. That IS a challenge. Hats off the the challenge team. >_>

I didn’t say GW2 is challenging (in one of my posts above I even stated that it is lacking in this department but is working on it with such things as Teq). Also, I don’t farm gold

Harbard.5738:

ronpierce.2760:

If you can play an MMO with absolutely 0 rewards, what is most peoples’ “fun factor”, that’s fine, but in that case you’d enjoy just about any game well designed or not… You’re a rarity, and frankly a lazy game designers delight.. x.X

Oh yeah, because it’s not totally lazy to make a game that’s just like a food dispenser that trickles down rewards instead of making a game that is engaging on it’s own and doesn’t need you to bribe you with illusory gains of money/shinies.

See, it’s way harder to design a really good game with really engaging gameplay than set up loot tables for you to roll on.

I agree. Challenging content over easy loot dispenser

Rouven.7409:

Suddenflame.2601:

Other games have loot as well such as Diablo and Diablo 2 which are not MMORPGs, but also have an economy and ability to play with other players. They are not as different as you want to believe they are. MMORPGs are highly similar to MRPGs which are closely related and 90% of those are mostly (SP)RPG. Loot and grindiness is the discussion of this forum (along with other random things apparently). RNG has little to do with other players as Diablo has RNG, Skyrim has RNG, etc.

Economy however is a main issue here as it is made up of Grindiness and RNG aspects. People are wanting less RNG and less Grindiness which by the way are the only two factors keeping the game’s economy from hyper inflation and devaluing of items. Basically by performing both the prices of items would fall (certain items), but the cost of other items (permanent bank access) would rise.

Grindness in this case of the game is only created due to RNG being as it is. People grind to get specific items which than they sell or use. If people kept getting said item repeatedly or were guaranteed said item the value of that item would plummet harder than a boulder in a bottomless ocean.

Exactly. You just have to ask yourself what the defining parameter is for any genre. Many games have many things in common and are still different. Plus the added twist here and there to set yourself apart.

I’m basically with you that there are worse games out there (for grind mainly) and since early on playing this game found the dilemma between “play the way you like” and the resulting change in loot structure.

It is a bit ironic that from a gameplay perspective I welcome other players (joining in on events etc) but from the economical aspect other players are worse here (from how it’s designed) than in any other game I’ve encountered so far.

Just as an example, WoW, about 6 years ago for me, I’ve always had enough gold basically to buy the majority of things available – especially from NPC’s.
The combination of “making gold” though questing and then “rewarding” yourself with a trinket, armour or mount was more satisfying from my perspective than dumping the materials I have onto the trading post to make some gold.

Of course someone else’s mileage varies, in my case the “play the way you want” (or can often) does not include many dungeons and fractals.

But I don’t have an answer. Hey, the loot for Teq and more was just “increased”, or the chance for ascended items I should say – thank you Zommoros, I knew you would read this, appreciate the speedy reply

I get what your saying and I think I know somewhat of the cause that is different between GW2 loot system and other games is based on the fact that GW2 uses a multi-tagged loot system rather than a single-tag or on-kill loot system meaning there is hundreds more items appear each second in comparison to other games where only 1 or more items appear per person per kill. This leads to a different approach needed to be taken when coming to how the economy handles it.

Cush.4063:

Suddenflame.2601:

TooBz.3065:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Just because some games have even worse designers doesn’t make the rng and grind in gw2 acceptable…. It just means it’s not the worst contender. Also GW2 is aimed for a us/eu audience, the audiences who least enjoy long terrible grinds.

Name one MMORPG that has better RNG and grind?

Why should we have to? I don’t see anyone saying that the RNG and grind is comparatively bad, just that it’s objectively bad.

The fact that everyone else is worse is irrelevant, unless you care to explain how it’s not?

I think a better argument is that the amount of grind and RNG is no worse than the minimum required to keep people in the game.

By saying something is bad you have to have something to subjectively compare it to. Comparison in this case is not objective but subjective.

If everyone else is worse than this game is the best and if every other game is worse than why do people play them and not complain as much in the forms. There is a reason for this comparison that you failed to comprehend.

A subjective comparison can lead to an objective solution to the problem. Such as by bringing out why a game has better RNG and grind can determine what you subjectively want to see in a game.

The reason these forums are so much more active with complaints is because the devs in this game are the most communitive devs out of any other game out there. They ask for your suggestions. All the other game’s forums don’t have as much complaining because the devs don’t exist on the forums so the community is just posting on those forums to communicate with the other players and not the devs. Just saying.

Not always the case. Taking the look at all the games I own with their own Steam Forums and there is less complaints. League of Legends forums are mostly just filled with Trolls but hardly any complaints. I would say league of legends devs are more active than GW2 dev team.

laokoko.7403:

Suddenflame.2601:

laokoko.7403:

Suddenflame.2601:

laokoko.7403:

Suddenflame.2601:

laokoko.7403:

To me it’s really the context.

If you look around, everyone is doing the same thing everyday.

Why do you have 10 characters?

5 races
2 genders per race
so 10 characters

Would have stopped at 8 since there are only 8 classes but wanted to have a full set.
None of my characters are mules.

Exactly. I have 8 level80 with full map completion and personal story done. And a total of 13 level80.

If this game actually have an endgame to play, people won’t have that many level80. Since this game have no endgame, people end up doing AC or COF or fractal everyday which is the same thing they did 1 year ago.

The guy above your post said it “And add in the fact that raids and battlegrounds offer an actual, FUN gearing process and compare it to the tedious crafting grind here. Guess who wins?”

This game is in fact very casual. But when you try to play it hardcore you wind up doing the same thing everyday. “same daily, same dungeon, same farming”.

Agree on your last point.

GW2 endgame however from what i seen is do what you want type of end game where the ultimate goal is to have fun which is different from previous MMORPGs. This is causing many of the issues since most people are coming from games where the goal is set in place long before they even started playing. Creating their own goals rather than goals placed for them.

I don’t even know what goals you are talking about. There are nothing to do.

There are no content casual players can’t do. If I already can do every content as a casual players, why would I want to play hardcore.

You make your own goals so I can’t help you there. I have my own goals made.

I don’t have any goals. All the goals are completed 1 years ago. It is so casual, I completed all my goals 1 year ago.

You need to make more goals than lol

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

If they added say:
30% chance per dungeon boss to drop a random Account Bound exotic item.
Last bosses have a 25% chance to drop an Ascended AB item.

The game would be more fun. Here’s why:

-More shots at instant gratification.
- Livens up boss kills in dungeons.
- Gives more stuff to toss in the mystic toilet and doesn’t hurt the market on items as they won’t be sellable.
- Allows people to gear even for exotics without literally just having to spend gold on it all.
- Wouldn’t be TOO fast since the stats would be random and usually people want specific item types/stats.

Literally this would make me run dungeons a LOT more. They don’t have to make everything tradable just to let it drop and I think that’s one of the biggest issues we’re seeing and why stuff has such low drop rates…

You do realize what you suggest would totally destroy the economy? At 30% drop rate of exotics inflation in the economy would occur drastically as people would just salvage them constantly. Also at 30% drop rate people would just farm there rather than buy items off TP. There is a lot more factors to an economy than you realize.

Exotics would drop, sure, but at least people would get to PLAY THE GAME to get what they want. That’s the problem right there. This game is RAN by buying your way through the game…

Not everyone buys their way through the game. Its a personal choice that people make to buy or not to buy. By the sounds of it you did the personal choice to buy. I did not choose to buy my way through the game. Most of my materials I mined myself. I gain money from excess materials that I sell off in bulk (i got 1000 in collection so i sell 750 every time i reach 1000). I do not go out of my way to mine. I mine as I find them for the fun of it.

If you do not want to buy your way through the game then don’t it is as simple as that.

You didn’t buy any gear for any of your alts? You DO have to buy stuff from the trading post because drops are so inconsistent that you’d never PROPERLY gear up if you didn’t, at least not without spending a lot of money on other things like leveling crafts etc, which isn’t worth it since it’s cheaper/faster to just buy everything you’d want to play competitively right from the trader. Then the next part of the game is skins, which are some of the worst grinds. The dungeon ones aren’t bad, but anything beyond exotic (and a few of the better exotics) are very very bad.

Play competitively in a noncompetitive game. Hell my lvl30 masterwork armour mesmer killed lvl80 exotic armour warriors, mesmers, etc. I do buy occasionally (very very rarely) items off of the trading post if I am too lazy or don’t feel like crafting using my materials. Materials I farm for. I have bought some in the past but not for the last 4-5 months i havn’t bought any. I only buy when its cheap which since ascended has become more popular I havn’t. So I just gather my own materials and make it myself.

My 2 main characters did not buy anything from the TP. 2 sets of exotic armour each. 1 set of ascended weapons (on one). Hell my ranger (first main) reached Orr before there was any lvl80 gear to use on the TP.

Rouven.7409:

Suddenflame.2601:

They share many design concepts actually lol. As RPGs share many commonalities design concepts are built around those. MMORPGs are not too different as they have to be designed the same. An MMORPG is only slightly different from a single player RPG.

I can take GW2, FW, PW, WoW, and other MMORPGs. Remove the network capabilities, add NPC henchmen, and adjust the events to make them easier to accompany the henchmen it would become a single player RPG. Main differences between an RPG and an MMORPG are, there is an active persistent economy and other people which content is designed around. Hence content not concept.

Ah, exactly. So since there are the two main differences playing into this, namely the economy and other players – both tied into loot/rng – stick to comparing that.

Because that’s what your thread is about.

Let’s not get into the details of why they are different and why other genres can tell other stories, allow for a more diverse character development/customization etc etc.

Other games have loot as well such as Diablo and Diablo 2 which are not MMORPGs, but also have an economy and ability to play with other players. They are not as different as you want to believe they are. MMORPGs are highly similar to MRPGs which are closely related and 90% of those are mostly (SP)RPG. Loot and grindiness is the discussion of this forum (along with other random things apparently). RNG has little to do with other players as Diablo has RNG, Skyrim has RNG, etc.

Economy however is a main issue here as it is made up of Grindiness and RNG aspects. People are wanting less RNG and less Grindiness which by the way are the only two factors keeping the game’s economy from hyper inflation and devaluing of items. Basically by performing both the prices of items would fall (certain items), but the cost of other items (permanent bank access) would rise.

Grindness in this case of the game is only created due to RNG being as it is. People grind to get specific items which than they sell or use. If people kept getting said item repeatedly or were guaranteed said item the value of that item would plummet harder than a boulder in a bottomless ocean.

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

If they added say:
30% chance per dungeon boss to drop a random Account Bound exotic item.
Last bosses have a 25% chance to drop an Ascended AB item.

The game would be more fun. Here’s why:

-More shots at instant gratification.
- Livens up boss kills in dungeons.
- Gives more stuff to toss in the mystic toilet and doesn’t hurt the market on items as they won’t be sellable.
- Allows people to gear even for exotics without literally just having to spend gold on it all.
- Wouldn’t be TOO fast since the stats would be random and usually people want specific item types/stats.

Literally this would make me run dungeons a LOT more. They don’t have to make everything tradable just to let it drop and I think that’s one of the biggest issues we’re seeing and why stuff has such low drop rates…

You do realize what you suggest would totally destroy the economy? At 30% drop rate of exotics inflation in the economy would occur drastically as people would just salvage them constantly. Also at 30% drop rate people would just farm there rather than buy items off TP. There is a lot more factors to an economy than you realize.

Exotics would drop, sure, but at least people would get to PLAY THE GAME to get what they want. That’s the problem right there. This game is RAN by buying your way through the game…

Not everyone buys their way through the game. Its a personal choice that people make to buy or not to buy. By the sounds of it you did the personal choice to buy. I did not choose to buy my way through the game. Most of my materials I mined myself. I gain money from excess materials that I sell off in bulk (i got 1000 in collection so i sell 750 every time i reach 1000). I do not go out of my way to mine. I mine as I find them for the fun of it.

If you do not want to buy your way through the game then don’t it is as simple as that.

laokoko.7403:

Suddenflame.2601:

laokoko.7403:

Suddenflame.2601:

laokoko.7403:

To me it’s really the context.

If you look around, everyone is doing the same thing everyday.

Why do you have 10 characters?

5 races
2 genders per race
so 10 characters

Would have stopped at 8 since there are only 8 classes but wanted to have a full set.
None of my characters are mules.

Exactly. I have 8 level80 with full map completion and personal story done. And a total of 13 level80.

If this game actually have an endgame to play, people won’t have that many level80. Since this game have no endgame, people end up doing AC or COF or fractal everyday which is the same thing they did 1 year ago.

The guy above your post said it “And add in the fact that raids and battlegrounds offer an actual, FUN gearing process and compare it to the tedious crafting grind here. Guess who wins?”

This game is in fact very casual. But when you try to play it hardcore you wind up doing the same thing everyday. “same daily, same dungeon, same farming”.

Agree on your last point.

GW2 endgame however from what i seen is do what you want type of end game where the ultimate goal is to have fun which is different from previous MMORPGs. This is causing many of the issues since most people are coming from games where the goal is set in place long before they even started playing. Creating their own goals rather than goals placed for them.

I don’t even know what goals you are talking about. There are nothing to do.

There are no content casual players can’t do. If I already can do every content as a casual players, why would I want to play hardcore.

You make your own goals so I can’t help you there. I have my own goals made.

ronpierce.2760:

If they added say:
30% chance per dungeon boss to drop a random Account Bound exotic item.
Last bosses have a 25% chance to drop an Ascended AB item.

The game would be more fun. Here’s why:

-More shots at instant gratification.
- Livens up boss kills in dungeons.
- Gives more stuff to toss in the mystic toilet and doesn’t hurt the market on items as they won’t be sellable.
- Allows people to gear even for exotics without literally just having to spend gold on it all.
- Wouldn’t be TOO fast since the stats would be random and usually people want specific item types/stats.

Literally this would make me run dungeons a LOT more. They don’t have to make everything tradable just to let it drop and I think that’s one of the biggest issues we’re seeing and why stuff has such low drop rates…

You do realize what you suggest would totally destroy the economy? At 30% drop rate of exotics inflation in the economy would occur drastically as people would just salvage them constantly. Also at 30% drop rate people would just farm there rather than buy items off TP. There is a lot more factors to an economy than you realize.

Your looking for instant gratification which in the short-run is good but in the long run (in this case wouldn’t be that long) would cause more trouble than good. Look at this way getting sex with a random person is instant gratification. You get into a relationship with a GF for a Long term gratification though. Its something you work on and build towards and than maintain.

Rouven.7409:

Suddenflame.2601:

They are an RPG and GW2 is an MMORPG. They share fundamental roots where as your little example of Sim City is in a completely different genre with no roots at all. There is always room for improvement but to know what to improve on exactly requires a healthy in-depth discussion such as, on the first page about the party and squad loot distribution system.

Yes, I did do that on purpose.
Still you cannot compare that, stick with the same genre. The point is as moot as if I would point out differences from single player RPGs like Skyrim.

They do not share the same design concepts.

They share many design concepts actually lol. As RPGs share many commonalities design concepts are built around those. MMORPGs are not too different as they have to be designed the same. An MMORPG is only slightly different from a single player RPG.

I can take GW2, FW, PW, WoW, and other MMORPGs. Remove the network capabilities, add NPC henchmen, and adjust the events to make them easier to accompany the henchmen it would become a single player RPG. Main differences between an RPG and an MMORPG are, there is an active persistent economy and other people which content is designed around. Hence content not concept.

laokoko.7403:

Suddenflame.2601:

laokoko.7403:

To me it’s really the context.

If you look around, everyone is doing the same thing everyday.

Why do you have 10 characters?

5 races
2 genders per race
so 10 characters

Would have stopped at 8 since there are only 8 classes but wanted to have a full set.
None of my characters are mules.

Exactly. I have 8 level80 with full map completion and personal story done. And a total of 13 level80.

If this game actually have an endgame to play, people won’t have that many level80. Since this game have no endgame, people end up doing AC or COF or fractal everyday which is the same thing they did 1 year ago.

The guy above your post said it “And add in the fact that raids and battlegrounds offer an actual, FUN gearing process and compare it to the tedious crafting grind here. Guess who wins?”

This game is in fact very casual. But when you try to play it hardcore you wind up doing the same thing everyday. “same daily, same dungeon, same farming”.

Agree on your last point.

GW2 endgame however from what i seen is do what you want type of end game where the ultimate goal is to have fun which is different from previous MMORPGs. This is causing many of the issues since most people are coming from games where the goal is set in place long before they even started playing. Creating their own goals rather than goals placed for them.

ronpierce.2760:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

And add in the fact that raids and battlegrounds offer an actual, FUN gearing process and compare it to the tedious crafting grind here. Guess who wins?

This is actually specifically what I meant. It’s not that there are grinds. Its a.) how long they take, and b.) the context of which you have to do them in. Grinding gold for a legendary is boring. Killing various bosses from multiple places, more forgiving RNG and a shorter run for each piece and with the occasional chance you get a piece you may not have even been working on yet right off a boss makes it fun and exciting. Your 5,636th run around FGS isn’t very epic anymore.

Cure for this is stop grinding and play for fun. Legendary is a long term goal (or at least should be) by rushing it your only hurting yourself.

Rouven.7409:

Suddenflame.2601:

(…)

Demon Souls, Dark Souls, and soon Dark Souls 2 are not played for loot but rather for the challenges they present. If you went into Demon souls with a Loot mentality you will find the game boring but go into the game with my achievement mentality and the game is exciting. I am not a lazy designers delight but rather there nightmare.(…)

Demon Souls, Dark Souls … Action Role Playing Games.

Heh, I don’t play SimCity for the loot either. Which leads me to the question, why all over sudden compare the situation at hand with a different genre at all?

If you have to compare, then stick with MMORPGs.

Obviously I like this game, otherwise I wouldn’t be here, but there certainly is room for improvement and I am still waiting for the pre-cursor hunt and hopefully that will be the answer.

Otherwise I can assure you, I never had to even gather that many materials for crafting ever, in any online game. Well, maybe I would have had to if I had stayed (thinking AION).

Zommoros, if you read this, won’t you drop me an ascended greatsword.
My friends all wield legendaries, I must make amends.

They are an RPG and GW2 is an MMORPG. They share fundamental roots where as your little example of Sim City is in a completely different genre with no similar roots at all. There is always room for improvement but to know what to improve on exactly requires a healthy in-depth discussion such as, on the first page about the party and squad loot distribution system.

laokoko.7403:

To me it’s really the context.

If you look around, everyone is doing the same thing everyday.

Why do you have 10 characters?

5 races
2 genders per race
so 10 characters

Would have stopped at 8 since there are only 8 classes but wanted to have a full set.
None of my characters are mules.

Afya.5842:

RNG is bad in GW2 because precursor drop everywhere. I wouldn’t mind people getting BDS the first time in SOO because they at least took the effort to go in the dungeon. But thing is not the same in GW2, it is possible to get precursor @100AP, in queensdale. It makes me jelly. And fotm RNG is now worse because it feels the same chance of getting skin/box from 1x to 4×.

Precursor dropping everywhere with different chances of dropping is so that every type of player has a chance to get a precursor. By limiting it and removing it from a subsection of players is something that Anet does not want to do. So if you can come up with a system that would allow all types of players be able to get a precursor I bet Anet would be thankful.

The reason why FOTM is designed that way is because 1x is where skilled play begins and rewards for doing it where as 1-9 are just practice. Anything above 1x is about the challenge rather than the reward. They added exclusive items for higher fractals, but drop chance is low for them but they still about the challenge in comparison to the reward. Its designed more so for people with my mentality of Fun does not need loot.

maddoctor.2738:

Suddenflame.2601:

From what I gathered you want an added party system where the party can choose how loot is distributed. (not sure how to implement it in a World Boss however) I will admit that the party system in GW2 is lacking and should be improved. They should add this but by default have it as it is.

In could be expanded to Squads too, if they ever allow us to form closed Squads, Squads that allow only certain people – guild members/friends to join instead of everyone. Why we don’t already have these, so guilds doing guild WvW can do it in peace, is another thing I don’t understand.

But deleting gear because it’s Account Bound and useless to me, while my best friend wants it, is something I simply can’t stand.

Changing how loot is distributed will go a long way to changing how much people hate the RNG in this game.

And btw I don’t want them to make all gear tradeable on the Trading Post, I want a way for parties to freely share Account Bound (useless otherwise) gear among them, WHILE they are in the same party, calling them “Party Bound” gear.

I actually agree with this as it adds more relevance to squads plus would allow me to give up some of those Ascended rings i don’t need to people who need them. This should have been implemented a long time ago not sure why it wasn’t as it has very little downfalls.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

For a game that was advertised not to be grindy, we have a kitten hell lot of it. Everywhere. In all aspects of the game.

Who gives a kitten’s kitten about other games that are grindier but were never advertised being not grindy?

My question to you is why are you trying to rush through the game? Only reason you need to grind in GW2 is to rush through it. Other games like PW and FW you need to grind to get any where cause if you don’t it will take you 100 years to get to max level let along higher grade armour. Just by Playing GW2 and not rushing (so no grinding) you can still make max level, and get ascended items within a year. By the time 3 years go by I should have my legendary weapon (as long as they add new ones cause the current ones aren’t my style). Hell without even trying for a legendary I have 70% of it complete.

TooBz.3065:

Fine, in my subjective opinion the RNG in this game is unpleasant. The only way I can enjoy the game is if I don’t try to get anything. Whenever I set a goal, I’m frustrated, irritated, and annoyed the entire time until I abandon it and go back to faffing about.

I can’t see how that can be good design.

When setting a goal on getting something you should first not try to make it an immediate goal, but rather one to work towards.

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t have a problem with the RNG in GW2 loot, my personal issue is with the loot distribution. While the free loot system of the game and no mob tagging is something I LIKE, there is still much to be desired on how gear is distributed among PARTY MEMBERS.

Let’s take some examples. In other games, the bosses drop gear, or tokens to get that gear or whatever system they use, but obviously not enough for all members of a party/raid. This is done to encourage those players to play the same instanced content again and again, if everyone got their gear from the first kill, it would take away all the fun, and potential to repeat.

In GW2 they wanted a system to award the best gear to only a handful of people, the result is the same with the other MMORPGs (few people out of many get the gear) if you compare how many people get a precursor/ascended weapon from let’s say Tequatl out of the 100+ needed to kill it, with how many people get raid gear in a 100+ man raid they shouldn’t be very far off (it’s luck based, some times it might be more people get super gear, other times none) but I believe Anet has tweaked the system in a way to produce similar results (don’t have data on this though, it’s just an estimate).

The HUGE difference between the loot systems when it coems to distribution, is that in other MMORPGs, parties/raids have access to a variety of loot distribution mechanics and I personaly believe that those still using the Need/Greed random roll loot distribution in those games are doing it wrong.

In other MMORPGs in big party instances the guild/team can (and in lots of times they will) distribute the loot according to needs, others gear up the tanks first, others the healers, others their guild leader or use a special point system. The key here is that even in a 100-man raid you KNOW you will get your gear eventually, it will be your turn, once all Warriors that had been raiding for months get their Ascended weapon, it will be your turn to gear up your Warrior with one. Instead of praying to the RNG gods, you just need to play with your team (shocking)

In Guild Wars 2 you are playing with complete randoms, and while the system in place works well while playing with randoms, it is simply horrible when playing with guild mates and friends.

Let’s take a few examples of how some horrible situations in GW2 are handled much better in other games: Suppose you have a Fractal Sword skin and your friend has a D/D Thief with 2 Fractal Daggers, you want a Dagger for your ele and he wants a Sword for his Guardian. You play FotM 40 with your buddy and you get another Sword while he gets another dagger…. and of course you can’t exchange them.

Similar with Fractal Rings, Ascended Armor and Weapons from Tequatl/Wurm etc when you get the stats you DON’T want but your friend/guildie wants them. It’s a seriously flawed loot distribution system.

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Just because some games have even worse designers doesn’t make the rng and grind in gw2 acceptable…. It just means it’s not the worst contender. Also GW2 is aimed for a us/eu audience, the audiences who least enjoy long terrible grinds.

Name one MMORPG that has better RNG and grind?

For the reasons mentioned above, lots of western MMORPGs with instanced dungeons/raids. At least they let guilds distribute the gear how they want, which is infinite times better than praying to the RNG gods. Also, everyone in a raid/party KNOWS their time will eventually come, unlike in GW2 your time might never come in 100 years

From what I gathered you want an added party system where the party can choose how loot is distributed. (not sure how to implement it in a World Boss however) I will admit that the party system in GW2 is lacking and should be improved. They should add this but by default have it as it is.

DeWolfe.2174:

nagr.1593:

Stop thinking it as ‘grinding’. find a way to make gold that u have fun with. for instance I run dungeons (only the ones I like though) for an easy 15-20g/day and am satisfied with that. haven’t jumped on a single train and dont ever plan on it.

Ok, and if you don’t like Dungeons or Fractals as I do not, how does one earn golds in game? The only other way to earn is to flip or farm, which are both grinds. Which is not that fun to do but, it’s what you have to do. So when you’re sitting there mindlessly grinding and someone get’s those “Lottery Drop” precursors, rare dyes, etc. it makes the game far less “fun”. As it’s near impossible to not start resenting other players and especially the Developers for making such a system.

Other games grind and RNG being worse does not automatically make GW2 good.

Well what aspects of the game do you like to play? I am not asking about ways to get money or what gives you the best loot, but rather which aspects of the game you like to play not based on its loot factor?

I play WvW more often, FOTM occasionally, Dungeons once a month (unless some of good buddies are on). I am sitting on over 300g atm (went up 20g recently) just from playing the way I want to. Hell I havnt done a World Boss in 3 weeks.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Just because some games have even worse designers doesn’t make the rng and grind in gw2 acceptable…. It just means it’s not the worst contender. Also GW2 is aimed for a us/eu audience, the audiences who least enjoy long terrible grinds.

Name one MMORPG that has better RNG and grind?

Everquest 2. Vanguard.

Explain why they are better to you. Since it is subjective.

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

tomlin.8204:

Suddenflame.2601:

So basically from what I been reading about what you want is to play a game for rewards and not just for the sake of having fun.

Would you mind if the devs decided to make it so that your account got no drops/rewards whatsoever, while everyone else’s remained normal? According to your logic, you wouldn’t mind at all, because you play the hame for fun, not for rewards.

You would be correct on that grounds I would not care. I do not grind for gold or for anything in this game. I do what I do for the fun of it or for the Achievement.

I’m going to be frank, you sort of sound like a guy who shouldn’t be posting about the build of an MMO. If you don’t care about loot at all, why do you even comment on how good or bad a grind is? Of course it isn’t bad to you if you literally don’t care if the items existed or not… The grind IS bad for people who give a kitten , for the very few people like you who don’t care, it doesn’t matter if you think its fine or not because it clearly doesn’t phase you. Not trying to be rude, but your state of mind in not caring about loot doesn’t fit with the general MMO*RPG* player mentality, you’re just a casual player. And that’s fine, but not really the type of person to make design calls… If you can play an MMO with absolutely 0 rewards, what is most peoples’ “fun factor”, that’s fine, but in that case you’d enjoy just about any game well designed or not… You’re a rarity, and frankly a lazy game designers delight.. x.X

Just because I do not care about loot does not mean I am not aware of the situations with loot. If the item exists that I want I will achieve to get it within my means of playing. I can tell you right now I am not a casual player as my amount of playing is the middle ground. Casual are below me, and constant players are above me. With about 1800 hours played since prelaunch.

Here is a question: Why must loot and rewards be the fun factor?

Demon Souls, Dark Souls, and soon Dark Souls 2 are not played for loot but rather for the challenges they present. If you went into Demon souls with a Loot mentality you will find the game boring but go into the game with my achievement mentality and the game is exciting. I am not a lazy designers delight but rather there nightmare.

It is easy to make new loot for people to chase, and easy content that is rewarding that will allow you to chase that carrot. Why I am the devil to them is because they have to develop hard content that work within the mechanics in the game. GW2 is trying to cater to my group of people but hasn’t fully succeeded at it yet but they are working on it as evidence Teq.

Your mentality is for the lazy designers hence why there are so many games like that. To make loot and balance loot around difficulty is easy but making challenging content to keep me occupied is not easy.

Vayne.8563:

Hey OP. Most people know me as a big defender of this game…and a defender who got a precursor drop at that.

The RNG is pretty bad here. Mind you, there were these sorts of RNG things going on in Guild Wars 1 as well, so I wasn’t completely surprised. For example, I ran a dungeon called Bogroot Growths hundreds of times without getting a Frog Scepter, which could only be gotten from that dungeon.

What they did in Guild Wars 2 was make it so that you didn’t have to run one dungeon. You can get a precusor from most places in the game. If you’re level 80 you can get them from WvW, jumping puzzle chests, open world foes (not just bosses) or dungeons. In that sense it’s pretty generous.

The problem is, without a traditional end game (and even Guild Wars 1 had end game in the form elite content that had it’s own unique drops), the end game some people are left with is making a legendary.

The problem is, farming for gold to buy one in no way feels epic…and that includes the precursor as well.

In these other games, it’s a bit different with the grind. You’re running specific content for specific drops. Here you’re just wandering around without signposts, hoping it will drop from somewhere.

I actually prefer this solution, but I can see why it would frustrate people and in fact, I’ve often felt the precursor situation was badly designed.

On the other hand, the dye situation I think is fine and the problems with it are often overstated.

From what I gathered from your post (I read a lot of your posts so I am aware) is that there is no solid end game like there was in GW1. I know the dungeon you speak of cause I was after that scepter as well (never did get it).

Peetee.9406:

EG of SoR used to run Tequatl, twice a day, every day. They got 3 Ascended chests from Tequatl every week on average.

150 people x 1 hour x 2 a day = 300 invested man hours per day
300 man hours x 7 days = 2100 man hours per week
2100 man hours per week / 3 Ascended chests = 700 man hours per Ascended chest.

If you killed Tequatl every day, it would take you 2 years on average to get 1 Ascended drop.

Name me any other MMO where it takes 2 years (have to play every day) to get 1 item.

Not enough data points to get an accurate picture with not enough attempts. Also PW I just named one LOL

tomlin.8204:

Suddenflame.2601:

So basically from what I been reading about what you want is to play a game for rewards and not just for the sake of having fun.

Would you mind if the devs decided to make it so that your account got no drops/rewards whatsoever, while everyone else’s remained normal? According to your logic, you wouldn’t mind at all, because you play the hame for fun, not for rewards.

You would be correct on that grounds I would not care. I do not grind for gold or for anything in this game. I do what I do for the fun of it or for the Achievement.

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

One, uh… WoW. You can get caught up and SEE new rewards daily, just by running heroics… Do a few BGs you get a new epic. It has more grinds but each one is less frustrating and you can feel the difference fairly quick. It’s that gratification that makes ANY grind worth it. Plus you can see your rewards in wow, like drops in dungeons, raids feel fun because you have a (good) chance at skipping some grinds and getting awesome instant gratification. If GW2 dropped say 1 ascended armor piece at the last boss of any dungeon, could be 1 random piece with any random set, people would be FAR MORE likely to grind because anticipating that drop (knowing SOMETHING WILL drop) and hoping it would be tailored to you gives people excitement and gratification. Grinding 250 of a material you can’t even grind alone without spending money isn’t fun. You HAVE to make the grind (no matter big or small) fun and FEEL rewarding. There is nothing epic feeling about grinding gold and buying mats.

So basically from what I been reading about what you want is to play a game for rewards and not just for the sake of having fun. So to you so far Rewards is the Fun but Fun is not the Reward. I rather play a game for fun rather than get rewards.

In PW, FW, and WoW to even get to the fun you need the rewards. Basically, its an endless grind of rewards with little to no fun for me since its repetitive to the extreme.

Lets take in another type of game for a second. Borderlands for instance give rewards and is fun to me. Getting a better gun is not fun, but what the gun does however is fun. I play borderlands not the for the Rewards = Fun but for the Fun that is not given by rewards.

You are reading what you want to read. First off, yes, rewards ARE fun. Especially in an mmo, a genre based around looting. (you loot a LOT in GW2, it’s all just trash) secondly, what really makes it unfun is that these grinds are forcing you to be weaker because now there is vertical progression. Gw2 wasn’t meant to be that way.

You just confirmed what I said…. Loot to me does not equal fun at all. MMO is not about looting (since thats just Massively Multiplayer Online which can be any type of game). RPG can contain looting but is not the core of the genre.

Ascended is a small vertical progression, but its not a gear treadmill and by playing for fun rather than grinding I am still able to construct my ascended gear. Your trying to rush through the game when its trying to prevent you. Your fighting the systems in the game in pursuit of the loot.

TooBz.3065:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Just because some games have even worse designers doesn’t make the rng and grind in gw2 acceptable…. It just means it’s not the worst contender. Also GW2 is aimed for a us/eu audience, the audiences who least enjoy long terrible grinds.

Name one MMORPG that has better RNG and grind?

Why should we have to? I don’t see anyone saying that the RNG and grind is comparatively bad, just that it’s objectively bad.

The fact that everyone else is worse is irrelevant, unless you care to explain how it’s not?

I think a better argument is that the amount of grind and RNG is no worse than the minimum required to keep people in the game.

By saying something is bad you have to have something to subjectively compare it to. Comparison in this case is not objective but subjective.

If everyone else is worse than this game is the best and if every other game is worse than why do people play them and not complain as much in the forms. There is a reason for this comparison that you failed to comprehend.

A subjective comparison can lead to an objective solution to the problem. Such as by bringing out why a game has better RNG and grind can determine what you subjectively want to see in a game.

ronpierce.2760:

One, uh… WoW. You can get caught up and SEE new rewards daily, just by running heroics… Do a few BGs you get a new epic. It has more grinds but each one is less frustrating and you can feel the difference fairly quick. It’s that gratification that makes ANY grind worth it. Plus you can see your rewards in wow, like drops in dungeons, raids feel fun because you have a (good) chance at skipping some grinds and getting awesome instant gratification. If GW2 dropped say 1 ascended armor piece at the last boss of any dungeon, could be 1 random piece with any random set, people would be FAR MORE likely to grind because anticipating that drop (knowing SOMETHING WILL drop) and hoping it would be tailored to you gives people excitement and gratification. Grinding 250 of a material you can’t even grind alone without spending money isn’t fun. You HAVE to make the grind (no matter big or small) fun and FEEL rewarding. There is nothing epic feeling about grinding gold and buying mats.

So basically from what I been reading about what you want is to play a game for rewards and not just for the sake of having fun. So to you so far Rewards is the Fun but Fun is not the Reward. I rather play a game for fun rather than get rewards.

In PW, FW, and WoW to even get to the fun you need the rewards. Basically, its an endless grind of rewards with little to no fun for me since its repetitive to the extreme.

Lets take in another type of game for a second. Borderlands for instance give rewards and is fun to me. Getting a better gun is not fun, but what the gun does however is fun. I play borderlands not the for the Rewards = Fun but for the Fun that is not given by rewards.

ronpierce.2760:

Also, WoW was designed with grinding in mind. People know to expect it every few months. However their grinds, while more, are shorter. Thus they become more GRATIFYING (and why WOW was criticized for spoiling the mmo community with all of its “instant gratification”). The thing is, many small grinds are okay because you feel rewarded. In gw2 you can’t even “grind” for half the stuff you want. You end up grinding gold to buy it all because the drops are very unreliable, hence no gratification until the very end of a looooong road for just 1 reward (say, a legendary). And for most, it’s just not worth it. Grinds need some satisfaction to justify continuing your grind. And to be frank, grinding ascended/legendaries in gw2 is both boring and unsatisfying.

There is one major issue with what your saying. You say "In gw2 you can’t even “grind” for half the stuff you want." that is in your opinion. I do not grind for anything I want i just accumulate and play the game the way it was designed. Play it for fun not for the rewards. Legendary is a long term goal (hence long term) meaning your not supposed to acquire it a month into playing the game. If your playing the game for rewards and not for fun then why are you even playing? Such as why are you doing this: “And to be frank, grinding ascended/legendaries in gw2 is both boring and unsatisfying.”?

I have 3 ascended weapons, and I am working on getting my ascended armour for my main character. I have 10 characters in total (0 of them are mules), long term goal is to fully equip them with ascended weapons, armour, and trinkets.

ronpierce.2760:

Just because some games have even worse designers doesn’t make the rng and grind in gw2 acceptable…. It just means it’s not the worst contender. Also GW2 is aimed for a us/eu audience, the audiences who least enjoy long terrible grinds.

Name one MMORPG that has better RNG and grind?

To everyone complaining about Random Number Generator (RNG) and grind in Guild Wars 2 (GW2): You guys need to play more Massively Multiplayer Online Roly Playing Games (MMORPG). Lets take a Free-to-Play (FTP) game such as Forsaken World (FW) for instance. To get any where in the game you need certain items to progress. The RNG in that game is so bad that many people use the in-game botting system to farm the items that they need. Basically meaning your character needs to be logged in for days on end (24/7) just to get items that you need.

World of Warcraft (WoW) a subscription based MMORPG that makes you spend weeks to months performing raids to get best-in-slot gear. This is repeated often for new best-in-slot gear is added often. During these raids it is not guaranteed that you will get the piece you need. Some raids you can only perform once a week making you wait for another chance (hence chance) at getting the piece you need. To get other items in the game you need to compete with other players (as drops are not shared between the players) to grind to get items since drop rates are low to force you to grind.

Perfect World (PW) is similar to FW (made by the same company) but has even worse grind and drop rates to the point you have to kill monsters for hours or even days just to get items for a single quest. You basically sit there for hours killing a specific mob in a specific area for hours to months (depends on how lucky you are) just hoping you will get that one item.

In GW2, precursors are pretty common as evidence by the number of people with legendaries in LA. Also, money is easy to obtain in GW2 where as in WoW, FW, and PW money takes forever to obtain. WoW, FW, and PW require you to grind for long periods of time inorder to obtain enough money to buy anything useful.

So if you want to complain go ahead, but I suggest you play Forsaken World and Perfect World first and make the comparison. By saying GW2 is grindy or has terrible RNG makes most MMOs look like bloody nightmare. By saying GW2 is grindy or has terrible RNG you are making a comparison of a form. If you want to say GW2 is grindy which MMORPG has less grind? Which MMORPG has better RNG?

WoW, FW, and PW are worse on these two points so if your making a comparison with these games you are insane! Just for your information I have never gotten a precursor in 1500+ hours of playing Guild Wars 2.

mesme.5028:

I think the fract weapons should be a chest to allow you to pick a skin, im yet to get something i can use on my main, also idk why dragonite ore cant be got in fracts and we have to do trash content world bosses for it, every other dungeon you can obtain armor from tokens from doing the dungeon.

you get Pristine relics and relics which are used to get ascended rings, 20 slot bags, exotic backpiece, obsidian and pieces to ascend. Pretty big difference in why you don’t get tokens for armour pieces.

If it was just their names but not the words it would reduce the spam.

I can agree with this one. Knowing who is a commander in chat is easier than having to sort through everyone.

Such long arguments without bringing up the main game that is the successful model of FTP with micro-transactions. The one game that has influenced and shown that FTP with micro-transactions is more profitable than Subcription and Expansion models.

League of Legends is the most played game in the world with more people spending money on it than World of Warcraft subscription model from what I read somewhere (if i can find that article i well post it).

GW2 is using BTP with a microtransaction model. This means you have pay to play the game first than after that only items in the gem store are cosmetic or convenience items. Not sure why you guys are saying this is a bad model considering they are in no way forcing you to buy anything with real money from the gem store that you can not get inside of the game itself. There are 0 P2W items in the gem store to date.

P2W is “Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have the skill in the game without paying.” http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

There are no items in the gem store that allow you to gain anything at a faster rate than someone who has the skill in the game (expect for gold with gem to gold Conversion). You can not buy anything using microtransactions within the gem store that will allow you get anything faster or unbalances the game in any shape or form.

Take a look at League of Legends development and bug fixing. There is less known bugs in League of Legends than there is World of Warcraft. FTP vs. Subcription. I know they are different types of games but in all honesty there is not many large development companies making high quality FTP MMORPG games that are not P2W. Most high quality MMORPGs are subscription or were made for subscription based model.

Guild Wars 2 is trying to keep people interested in the game by using Living Story which means new content every 2 weeks. They choose this model as they noticed a drop in the player base every 2 week after new content updates. So they went from monthly updates to biweekly updates.