Guild Wars 2

ONLY if it stops coming up 5 times in a row…. REALLY ANNOYING!!111

I don’t think people understand that every class has a specific way of negating damage. For Necros it’s the various conditions at ease in order to keep people at bay and not even reach them at all.

I have had to finish one POI on ONE borderlands map, to finish all my map completion, and I cannot for almost 2 months as my server keeps winning and gets put on same side for that borderlands map…

I am all for the neutral thing, but make it so you can’t see enemy players, so it can’t be abused. Or just remove map completion from wvw like ANET had the sense to do with the Mists map…

oZii.2864:

To break it down even further you ran D/D which you should survive against a guardian anyway. I didn’t seem to notice you saying you killed the guardian with that build, and you took on a S/D fresh air build with D/D.

I don’t understand your test or this example because the same results would have happened if you ran D/D direct.

Killed both at once more or less (ele jumped in midfight).

My point wasn’t how strong or weak conditions were, as you are right on with your statement.

People just probably don’t perceive conditions as fun though on the receiving end. (I am in NO WAY experienced fighting AS a condition build or class, so I just adjusted how I played for this build to work).

The guardian wasn’t full bunker btw.

PierPiero.9142:

what do you suggest for D/D build without 6 in arcana ? i played 2,6,0,2,2 or 2,6,0,0,4 with dagger dagger (with tempest defence ) and berserker but in 1 vs 1 it is not so simple . Has you a build without arcana to share ? ( i have played quite a lot without it but in hard fight it seems to me that arcana traits is really strong ( not only EA ) )

I usually run this in SoloQ

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhMM6c24wwBdEBPACtfDLlSWgiVTC-TJRBwAdeAA02f4bZAAnAAA

It’s just an example, but I have been running this since Decemberish.

So I was just testing to run a condi build d/d Ele in spvp (not that good of a build since I don’t usually run such but w/e) and after taking on a Guardian and surviving, then fresh air Ele – the Guardian said “kittening nerf your silly class”

I didn’t feel all that strong since it was difficult to keep up conditions but yeah…

EDIT: This is a first crude effort and a lot of things should be changed imo, but here is the build in case someone is curious at all http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhMM6c24wwBdEBHAGpnQoAw4TQOoFWcLkFA-TJRHwAG3fIwJAAZZAAPAAA

oZii.2864:

Is there just a little to much value being put into strength’s modifier?

I been reading around the forums people are putting on a sigil of strength to get guaranteed might so they have the modifier, changing from dps focused foods to might on dodge. This makes no sense when you should take something like sigil of force or air as long as you can produce 1 stack of might on your own unless your getting good mileage out of that condition damage. Seems like some strange choices people are doing. Trying to build around the modifier and the rune instead of just building like they normally would and adding the rune to get more damage.

The food is a WvW thing but sigils applies to s/tPvP if your running strength runes you really shouldn’t be giving up damage modifiers like force so you can get some might so you take a strength sigil instead.

While I am not personally building around the runes, not everyone can crit reliably for the air. And depending on the build – 9 stacks of might is better than 5% extra damage for instance.

I’d be all for extra boon removal, but then re-balance boon dependent classes to match up in stats with the rest, otherwise it’s gonna get way out of hand.

Because we all know that the best cheese builds come from the tournaments…

Tornado form should give me double the HP during the duration and make 3k crits at minimum.

Solstice.1097:

FeelsAlright.5860:

Solstice.1097:

i should add that this question is regarding the current meta which I am relating to tPvP at high levels. i’m not really thinking of soloq as part of this discussion.

Solo q is run by condi’s. Engy kitten s there.

yea this is true because soloq is like…. 2 metas behind usually. not to mention all the newbs.

Those meta arguments are kinda crap tho, if it was SO viable to go the way the tournament guys play, someone would do it all the time and have no issues against the conditioners – i.e. cannot happen without any condi clearing.

Make 4 v 5s not count in leaderboards, or lock out one player on the 5 team from leaving spawn.

Grevender.9235:

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

Neko.9021:

Sadly, putting this back to 20 seconds would probably make the Triple Cantrip Celestial Eles that have been running around go from simply viable to insanely overpowered again in sPvP.

As if warriors aren’t greatly over powered…

as they are now, decap Engi and MM Necros are far beyond any Warr opness (yep, even more op than hambow ones)

A lot of people on the below thread would disagree with you simply because we don’t see those builds in the tournaments. That OBVIOUSLY means they are balanced right?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Condition-Wars-2

Shouldn’t Pain Response be updated as well then?

Eviscera.9703:

I already asked Karl about this on a twitch stream chat. His answer was rather depressing and makes me wonder if he actually plays this game. He said that the balance team has no plans on reverting RTL. He also said when RTL is used offensively a good ele should check for blinds or enemy blocks.

Meanwhile another class can counter your defense mechanic on the same cooldown with an unblockable skill of the same range. No need to check for blocks, aegis or stability there… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon

dancingmonkey.4902:

Swim.6830:

Meanwhile I can stack tons of condition damage and toughness and basically tank, while killing people, because I don’t have to pick and choose my stats carefully!

Meanwhile I can stack tons of power, precision, and toughness and basically tank, while killing people, because I don’t have to pick and choose my stats carefully!

OR

Meanwhile I can stack tons of power, vitality, and toughness and basically tank, while killing people, because I don’t have to pick and choose my stats carefully!

To those who have actually tested it, compared direct damage to condition damage builds, with the same vitality and/or toughness levels, know my statements are accurate. On the other hand folks making some fairly biased statements of conjecture without having actually tested it. Statements similar to the one I quoted.

Tested on a dummy, did you? Especially the second one. I bet they are as viable as the condition tank…

I am sorry but either way you cut it, when you stack condition damage and toughness you only have 2 stats to focus on and main, unlike your examples.

Advent Leader.1083:

Hypothesis: conditions add another thing for players to watch, and a whole set of mechanics that run parallel with active combat. With GW2 combat pace, most players get overwhelmed managing both direct and condition damage, that they end up getting stressed by it, and people that come from games where damage is constrained heavily to one channel, they react aversely to the pressure.

Meanwhile I can stack tons of condition damage and toughness and basically tank, while killing people, because I don’t have to pick and choose my stats carefully!

2 of the classes are boon reliant so in the pvp meta anything except ranger and warrior will mess up your boons and stack conditions like crazy.

As a mesmer you get to counter almost every class effectively, so for pvp it’s nice.
For a dungeon class I’d pick Ele tho, so really up to you.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Swim.6830:

Honestly it’s not even the killing speed that bothers me as much as the quick re-application. 3 condi-bombs after another is a bit much. IMO not all classes can do it, but some classes are main culprits of quick condition re-application… and both can do it in AOE if I am not mistaken.

Honestly, I do not even see how this path of thinking can make sense to anyone, maybe it is just me.

Of coarse conditions have to be capable of fast reapplication. If they could not be reapplied after a cleanse, they would very literally do zero damage. Cleansing is intended to negate damage, not alleviate it all together. To make it worse, you appear to make it clear to me, that your actually have no experience with the professions you complain about.

And it seems to me that you have no idea how balancing works.

I don’t see how you can defend a tank that can kill – “oh but it’s with conditions so it’s ok”

I am done posting here when people obviously defend something so fiercely, when all that is needed is a slight small balance change which bring the scale evenly between direct damage and condition damage.

As a PvE reject, it will be difficult to complete again lol

Man I wish I could run a 4 attunement Ele with everything up and running at once…

So no one else has noticed/experienced this?

Good to know…

Carighan.6758:

Brando.1374:

depends, some can down someone in 2s while others can take 15s to down someone.
so a condi class should be able to down someone in 4-30s?

Er, 20s or so.

Anyhow, just look at an attack.
If attack A deals 4000 damage instantly, and attack B deals 500 damage but applies a single stack of bleeding which takes 7s to tick for 3500 extra damage, it’s easy to see how this balances (one example of this is the Necro scepter with it’s bleed AA).

Now, maybe conditions in GW2 “tick too fast”. But as someone above said this is not something condition-specific. The whole combat system, offence, conditions, attacks, death, in this game is lightning-fast.
You die in split-seconds. And with conditions, you can die in two split-seconds by purging them once. That’s it.

So really, any “fix” to conditions has to “simply” (yeah…) slow down combat. On all ends. The slower combat is, the more the extra time conditions need to kill someone become a liability, as more and more players gain more and more chances to react to it.

Honestly it’s not even the killing speed that bothers me as much as the quick re-application. 3 condi-bombs after another is a bit much. IMO not all classes can do it, but some classes are main culprits of quick condition re-application… and both can do it in AOE if I am not mistaken.

And I introduce “Limiter” – when a condition is cleansed, it cannot be reapplied for x seconds.

Meaning when I cleanse one condibomb, you cannot simply reapply it right after. I am getting tired of cleansing 3 condibombs after another just because the class I play happens to be boon-based. The 3rd one usually kills me because I can only cleanse about 12 conditions in 15 seconds in total – go figure, while they can be re-applied much faster.

Now think carefully OP, what you are asking again…

Carighan.6758:

Swim.6830:

My point is that condition masters have little to sacrifice currently in survivability for similar damage and on par utility as direct damage builds.

You mean they don’t sacrifice opportunity or burst? Because well, their skills now need time to do their damage, giving the enemy opportunities to counteract them (removal doesn’t work against instant damage because you have no chance to react to it at all) and to recycle their CDs?

Uh huh.

The downside of DoTs – in general – isn’t really up for debate. DoTs vs DDs is anything but a new concept in RPGs. DDs are weaker or affected by some kind of defence (often physical dodging, here it is armour), in return DoTs need time to deal their damage.

This only becomes a proper balance issue in situations where you are forcing an unbalanced fight. As in, most 1v1.

I’d be fine if conditions needed twice the time of DDs, but it really isn’t the case currently.

Buzzcrave.6197:

No. Skill is fine as it is.

Yeah no, when a skill does less damage than an auto attack it’s not fine…

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The effects are well known. How do you currently counter someone with pure Knight’s gear? You use armor-ignoring damage, aka conditions. If conditions were affected by armor, then what would you use? Power? The exact thing it is strongest against? Or conditions, which it is now just as strong against? Knight’s gear would have no vulnerabilities anymore, so yes, it very much would become the “I win” stat set.

The only condition build that regularly removes boons is necros. Every other class has their boon stripping tied to Power skills (exception of Null Field, which works equally well in any build), or don’t have a condition build anyway (Guardians). So no, Protection affecting conditions would usher in the boon-spam meta, followed by necros being called OP because they have good capability of removing boons. And Rangers would disappear entirely, as they have no methods to punish or remove boons.

You’re ignoring the fact that making Precision and Ferocity a single stat would make it a exponential stat. Every single point you put into that stat would be worth more than every prior point combined. That makes it inherently impossible to balance.

If it’s a curve that can be calculated, it can be balanced.

Even if knights gear becomes imbalanced, it can be adjusted, as has gear and stats previously in this game.

My point is that condition masters have little to sacrifice currently in survivability for similar damage and on par utility as direct damage builds.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Swim.6830:

I think people wouldn’t complain as much if toughens did something against conditions,

Net result: Knight’s gear wins everything except most PvE

or the very least protection as a boon.

Net result: boon-spam bunkers win everything except most PvE

Tho I’d much rather have precision and ferocity merged into one stat…

Net result: you have burst hitting just as hard as it does now, but also being much harder to kill if they screw it up. Alternatively, Precision/Ferocity hybrid gets nerfed to uselessness to make up for the exponential functionality, as each point would be worth more than every point prior.

So, your ideas, while they may sound good, would not have good effects at all on the game.

I disagree on the first one. Effects will be unknown until tested.

The boon can already be converted or removed by most condition based classes anyway, so not sure what the issue is. People seem to remove/convert/steal boons at about the same rate as they are applied, thus making boon based classes kind of obsolete (like Eles/Guards who depend on this to survive).

The last one is the same type of balance you see with conditions i.e. 2 stat combo. Conditions have duration and damage, direct will have base damage and damage boost. This will allow a lot more diversity/hybrids and stat combos that are currently only available for condition classes.

I do NOT suggest all 3 at once, as that would be overkill, but the last thing makes most sense to me. Alternatively, lower the base condition damage by like 30-40% and allow it to crit by using the precision/ferocity stats.

Neko.9021:

Eles are squishy for mainly these reasons:
-They have twice the weapon skills as the other classes with no investment to do so
-They have immense damage capability if they spec for it
-They have immense healing capability if they spec for it

The latter two, I’m really talking about the extremes of the spectrum. Eles have possibly the highest damage in PvE while also giving out very very good uptime on party Might and Fury, and Eles have some of the strongest regeneration and healing capabilities in the game with insanely high boon uptime on Regeneration and Protection.

You just had to pull those facepalm arguments.

-They have twice the weapon skills as the other classes with no investment to do so
+ Incorrect! Engineers, guardians, mesmers and necros have extra abilities, but people tend to forget that. Also ours are “balanced” with double the cooldown on everything, so point is moot either way.

-They have immense damage capability if they spec for it
+ As does every other class, only almost every single other class can do it better and not be tissue paper in combat. We are also probably the worst class for condition spec besides guardian due to minimal access to “cover conditions”.

-They have immense healing capability if they spec for it
+ As does every other class if they spec for it and some do self healing much better due to other synergies like blocking, stealth etc.

Extremes in PvE are moot since you play against an AI. And not a very smart AI at that (it doesn’t adapt at all).

To answer the OP – don’t know man. I wish I could have 20k base health and spam condition AOEs all day with my 2.5k+ armor and have some extra minions on top while using the powers of fire and ice…

Darox.8069:

EHP is not ignored by conditions, only armor is, wich is just one factor comprised in the EHP

Anyway this is good but eh, remember my build analysis oZii? Good old times when Daphoenix was around and I was modest

Yeah one of the 2 factors, so it’s no longer EHP and just the actual HP.

So I completed the story of Arah while the track was unlocked for that week, but now it’s still locked.

Tried to find the previous thread about this, but the search function of the forums = do nothing.

I think people wouldn’t complain as much if toughens did something against conditions, or the very least protection as a boon.

Tho I’d much rather have precision and ferocity merged into one stat…

Very interesting info!

This the EHP is completely ignored by conditions so…

holodoc.5748:

Swim.6830:

Yeah really… when another class with 2600+ armor and near 30k health comes and crits you for 7k on one move lemme know. Warriors are still way above viable at the moment.

Would you please care to share which warrior build you are using that gives 30K vitality and is still able to crit for 7K on a hammer?

I never said hammer ^^

It was some new test build I MET at spvp. Guy had easily over 25k HP and around 2600 armor (overall tanky). Didn’t do that much consistent damage, but the eviscerate still did 7k on me. I am just saying that it’s doable, as you are basically tanky with some burst.

coglin.1867:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

As i have said before. The damage the conditions do isn’t the problem. It is and always has been the NUMBER of conditions. Conditions shouldn’t be what decides a fight spamming everything you have over and over again until the target runs out of condition removals and dies.

So, what defines this as a problem? I mean, so far all you have done is state that it is one, but you offer no suggestions as to why it is a problem in any way,

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Unless you are built SPECIFICALLY to counter conditions you are going to have a hard time. This is taking runes, traits, sigils and everything else you can to counter them. However, you counter ONE build type but are weak to balanced builds, zerker builds and bunker builds (in that you wont kill them)

Umm, yeah. This is how the game is designs and built as its intended purpose. It is that whole rock, paper, scissor thing you hear about.

And If I want to deal with heavy CC builds, I can load up on stun breakers, negative stun duration food, and runes. Now I destroy CC builds, but are weak to damage builds of either kind.

See the pattern here?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Rather than just nerf all conditions, all that needs to be done really, adjust the number of conditions these classes have. I mean look at Ele they have TWO damaging conditions. No matter the weapon, no matter the trait load out they have TWO.

This is brilliant in terms of build diversity. Let us force all professions to have the limitations of eles, but without diversity of attunements?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

A staff Mesmer with 0/30/10/30 has access to – Bleeding, Blind, Burning, Chill, Confusion, Cripple, Poison, Torment, Vul and Weakness. Now while some of that is RNG based – Poison, Blind and Chill mostly they can EASILY stack the other conditions

This is the kind of thing i am talking about. That is just ONE weapon set. No runeset, no sigils or anything just ONE weapon set and trait load out.

So we need to rebuild and redefine the entire game around this build?

So as a player who plays a staff mesmer, I would love to see you total up for us how much damage this is. First off, none of those stack “easily”, secondly, none of theme are guaranteed to apply, as it is a random chance of application.

Swim.6830:

So a condition build that melts people as fast as a zerker, but with 2800 armor is balanced then… yeah that makes sense…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJASUnMdQnHW5BmCCdIGoKoQv4BwkittenrTfCddKA-TxBBABYp8DgnEgQ7PknumAukDVq+zZKBDAgAczbmNvZ28m38mH6QH6QH6Q7mD9mD9mDtUAMpMC-e

You mean like this one? 2800+ armor, 50+% crit chance. 22,400 hp, 1,000 AoE cleave damage auto attacks, that crit for over 2000 and do so over half the time.

Wearing the full zerker gear your specified. Oh, and by the way, almost completely immune to conditions in any form.

Aye that one… and we all know where it stands in terms of balance.

I was focusing more on spvp though. No torment sigils there and no confusion runes…

Yeah really… when another class with 2600+ armor and near 30k health comes and crits you for 7k on one move lemme know. Warriors are still way above viable at the moment.

FatRaKoon.1782:

@Sunshine : Yep that Neko’s build is the best S/D fresh air setup you can find (in my opinion).
And don’t feel silly ! Experimenting builds is what’s fun you know, well to me me at least XD.

@Swim : I personally never said it was all about the damage, but the fact is that fresh air builds are generally burst-type builds, meaning damage orentied. Of course you can do well in a fresh air setup with D/D but it is not optimal compared to what a D/D cantrip build can do : if I only compare the D/D build I’m currently playing with your build, I have more damage for approximately the same survivability.
Besides, that’s a personal preference but in the current condi meta, I wouldn’t play without any points in water. Relying only on the heal that can be sooo easily interrupted is kind of a bad idea to me. But again, that’s just me !

Anyway, all this to say that if you play a S/D fresh build like Neko’s you’ll be able to burst down opponents real fast and on really low CD (to put even more pressure) so that the condi in a duel won’t be such a pain. With the kind of build you propose, I feel like you won’t do enough damage to end a duel quickly and that you’ll end up being bothered with the condi if the fight lingers on.
I shall try it though, so I can base my arguments on something else than assumptions.

The damage thing wasn’t meant to anyone in particular, I just want to make people more open-minded.

I actually run a different build without fresh air, but the build I mentioned works quite well against enemies that need to face you properly to fire off skills and it’s more of a defensive thing plus a good overall mobility in spvp.

Once you learn to use the earth stability, no one will be interrupting you on your heal and I have had quite a lot of laughs at people trying to cc me off points and on skyhammer trying to drag me or push me. Timing is everything with Ele as usual… not very rewarding as other classes but works.

Even though there is no trinity, you will see that certain classes CANNOT take certain roles compared to other classes. It is not the diversity as was advertised when the game launched…

I am tired of being paired against 2 engis and a necro while I have no condition class on my team…

Neko.9021:

Sadly, putting this back to 20 seconds would probably make the Triple Cantrip Celestial Eles that have been running around go from simply viable to insanely overpowered again in sPvP.

Considering Warriors fly left and right through the maps now + so much else I respectfully disagree.

Noticed this recently as well. Started happening few days ago for me though.

Tim.6450:

Swim.6830:

Yeah because mobility and fury is equivalent to the opponent getting hit by – weakness, chill, immobilize, cripple, vulnerability and blindness.

Take a Axe /dager necromancer and you can do all those things in power.

Swim.6830:

And yes, I said at once, but what is actually happening is the usage of abilities with very little animation/cast-time.

Of course it is, due to the nature of cleansing (it works after the condition was placed), it would be incredibly useless to even try condition builds if they had the same tells.

The abilities you pointed out are some of the strongest direct ones and they are far too few in total.

Strange, I haven’t even spoken about warrior hammer (75% untraited weakness uptime with one skill alone add cripple (I think AOE) and cc), guardian hammer (another damage/ control weapon with extra support), warrior mace main hand (5 seconds weakness on auto attack, daze and block), ranger greatsword ( blocks, evades, stuns, knock down and mobility), guardian greatsword (blind, pull, retaliation and might), mesmer greatsword (vulnerability,might, aoe boon stripping, aoe cripple, knock back), … (the list goes longer but I’m rather lazy).

Swim.6830:

By resistance I do not mean time duration. I mean actual resistance – % damage negated like toughness.

Well it kinda does , only it takes some time and is rather subtle. The stacks on you will be lower and you will take less damage/second.

Swim.6830:

Direct damage has this equivalent.

So power does not have a -X% duration equivalent.

Swim.6830:

Since it’s difficult to grasp, here is how condi builds feel right now – imagine a build with 60% crit chance, 2900 armor, 190% crit damage, 2200 strength and 23k health. This build can also CC you like crazy

Well that is your opinion but it does not say anything nor add it any value to this discussion.

Swim.6830:

and has a class survivability of either – secondary health bar with extra abilities; access to stealth and multiple invulnerabilities and evasions.

And this class is also ranged and has AI do some extra stuff sometimes.

Well that does not change for both power or condition builds.

No you are right. When I fought this guardian, he managed to stack all these things and turned the fight…

Ok with no more sarcasm, maybe I am just coming wrong with Eles having crap secondary conditions (in terms of duration mostly) compared to other classes. Honestly with my thief with hardly any condition removal I can take down a condi necro almost easily where I would struggle as an Ele with tons of condition removal.

Or it could be that some classes can stack over 5 conditions almost at once… 3 times in a row even if you cleanse them, so at the 3rd time you are done.

Or that they can steal/turn your boons which is supposed to be your class defense mechanic, because a class with lowest HP and armor needs such a hard counter button…

Bowflex.4502:

Power builds still work fine. If Youre running glass cannon and have low hp, that’s your own fault. One build can’t beat them all, balance doesn’t work like that, as much as you would like it to.

It’s not like everyone doesn’t have access to at least one cleanse. And if your running a power build you should have enough of a window if you time your cleanse right to turn the tables. Pay attention to your foes cooldowns,

And if your referring to wvw, don’t waste your time. You can’t simply balance a Zerg blob, and attempting to do so is folly.

So a condition build that melts people as fast as a zerker, but with 2800 armor is balanced then… yeah that makes sense…

One with Air actually works surprisingly well with D/D and Fresh Air.

You can basically run circles around those bomb dropping engies and it’s quite difficult to catch you (assuming you know how to move well in a fight to begin with).

It’s not always about the damage people…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhMM6Z24wwBf0APA2wSQKQcAICsBLWFSCA-TJBBwAAOBAeeAA12fAcZAA

Utilities are up to you, but I suggest the cleansing fire and the ether renewal for the condi spam in the current popular soloq. Armor of earth x2 is for the warriors, guardians, necros and mesmers (plus the earth stability). The cantrips are still quite usable without the cooldown spec in water, you just need to be a little bit more careful.

Pyroathiest.4168:

Illusions don’t use your sigils. They don’t use sigils at all for any reason.

If your sigils modify your basic stats, then those basic stats transfer to the illusions.

So this is fixed/unintended then?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Clones-bugging-sigil-of-fire/first#post3920795

I have been wondering which sigils work and are treated separately with the illusions. For instance can I equip sigil of frailty and have it trigger from every illusion that attacks my enemy?

I’ll just leave this here for the pre-fix dmg

2400 armor if anyone wants to know and had like 3 bleed stacks on me and one vulnerability when the burst came.

EverythingEnds.4261:

How the kitten did you make 100 gold from pvp within 12 days? O.o

I play every day and I might have gotten 20-30. At max.

I’d like to know as well…

Here is a sustain build if you need something else to try. The thing with Ele is that people like to focus on different things, but they cannot always do that coz of crap traits and long cooldowns.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhMM6c24wwBdEBPACtfDLlSWgiVTC-TJBBwAAOBAeeAA12fAcZAA

It will probably stop when the cheese builds get balanced, sorry.

Though, people have been getting a lot of random DCs lately with no feedback from the A-TEAM…