Guild Wars 2

Nier.2478:

You sound new. If you aren’t new then..

You are really simple-minded if you think Quickness should be removed. This is why casual input is often dismissed, its because most casuals including you don’t even try to explore the game more and proceed to cry without evaluating classes that REQUIRE quickness to be effective.

The only input that should be dismissed are posts such as yours, where apparently anyone with a different opinion is either simple minded or a “casual”, funnily enough the subject of quickness came up on a stream I was watching last night, they didn’t think it was a very good mechanic either, some thought the game would be better off without it, some thought it should be limited to things like rez/stomp, but I guess they must of been casuals

Incidentally anyone with a modicum of sense should be able to work out if quickness was ever removed, then certain classes would be adjusted, without having it spelt out for them.

Void.4239:

Sylosi.6503:

deapee.7516:

The game is fun I’ll give it that, but most people don’t just play for fun…

Except it isn’t fun, at least not hotjoin sPvP, in fact I’d go as far to say hotjoin sPvP is the worst, least fun of that sort of PvP I’ve played in any MMO.

this made me laugh

in my eye’s :

1 ) games where made for having fun . the better you get at something the more fun you’ll have .

2) in order to play Spvp , build/ way you play is real important.
1001 builds can be made, doesn’t mean 1001 builds are good for pvp.
if you are getting totaled in pvp , then there’s a problem with your build/ way you play it ( or multiple targets jumped you)

3) i love the fact that evry1 is equal in gear ( in spvp/ tpvp ). Skill matters , and alot of regular mmorpg players are used to outgear the opponent , hence a lot of people have it hard in this kind of pvp
( newcomers can axualy beat some1 that has been here longer , and it makes them mad to see a rank 4 owned there rank 34, maybe thats a reason why high ranked players are leaving spvp and going for WvW, ( just to have the upperhand against newcommers )

Point 1 and 2 apply to every MMO I’ve ever played. Point 3 is the one good thing about GW2 sPvP, but then once you are geared and actually playing equally geared opponents, then skill matters in every MMORPG I’ve played, many of which requires far more multitasking / awareness / thought than you need in GW2.

But anyway as to the reasons why hotjoin sPvP is absolutely terrible:

1 – It is most the zergy, braindead “casual” PvP I’ve ever played, this is in part due to the mode and its implementation, in part due to putting 8v8 on a 5v5 map and in part due to the limited class system.

2 – Lack of variety, both in regards to modes and team size.

3 – That the 8v8 on a 5v5 map changes the already crappy balance even more toward burst.

There are also some pretty bad design flaws in regard to classes and the results some classes get in relation to the level of skill required, plus some pretty off-putting mechanics. If people from “pro” teams who stream get annoyed because they get instgibbed, then what do you think that does for some new guy tha has never PvPed before? (The answer is in how the sPvP population looks now )

Grounder.7381:

in other free to play MMO, you got a clear vertical progression.

GW2 is not f2p, it is buy to play like most games are.

deapee.7516:

The game is fun I’ll give it that, but most people don’t just play for fun…

Except it isn’t fun, at least not hotjoin sPvP, in fact I’d go as far to say hotjoin sPvP is the worst, least fun of that sort of PvP I’ve played in any MMO.

jportell.2197:

I think it will be very good! And it brings to light that engineers are not as Underpowered as people would have us believe… There are a few maps where an engineer could make use of these and surprise the heck out of people leaving them wondering why they instadowned and then look at the log to find out it wasn’t a backstab thief… GOOD SHOW!

Except of course that it is underpowered compared to other classes burst builds, it involves having to immobilize the target (with that terribly difficult to avoid net shot), because you have to stand inside them to get the barrage from kit refinement to hit (because it sends out grenades in all directions, so if not directly on top of the opponent most of them miss).

So in essence it takes longer to apply & is easier to avoid than the burst of classes like mesmer or thief and has less survabilty than other classes burst builds.

So essentially has the same issue as glass cannon static discharge builds, why use it when other classes do it better, do it with more survabilty / ability to disengage and in the case of mesmers, also offer the glory that is portal.

Though I agree it will surprise the heck out of people, for a while…

gkaare.8576:

Where did you get this build from, by the way? I thought I was being all crafty running it about a week ago and now I see people using it everywhere. :<

He and all those others you suddenly see running it, probably got it from watching a guy called Power (#2 on the NA QP list) stream on Twitch the other day, who has been trying out engi for a few days and settled on this build.

And yes you are right, the setup is longer / easier to avoid than a thief or mes, especially against classes that have a lot of stability, and survivability is worse than burst specs on other classes.

Incidentally for some of the WvW heroes on this board who think engi is fine and that it is a question of L2p, when someone asked Power ‘are engineers good for PvP?’, the reply he got was ‘they are probably the weakest class for PvP right now’.

Preacher.9526:

We have several ways to remove conditions, should be a non-issue. Even if your just swapping in the Elixir for a specific encounter but you can also trait for some of the best condition removal available to any class.

Several ways, which are in terms of effectiveness for the number of trait points used are worse than most other classes, the only decent condition removal on an engy is if you build in some way for elixirs, the other optons are weak compared to most other classes, which for an allegedly versitile / jack of trades class is pathetic.

Scrag.8765:

Real people with skill like gear cause it helps people with lack of skill compete thus providing us real people with skill a challenge.

Remember that. Skilled players like a challenge, and are not scared of people with a little more gear than them. People who preach we should have no pvp gear are really just casuals who were never going to compete with us anyway.

People who preach there should be no pvp gear (cosmetics aside) simpy have more than three brain cells to rub together and realize if you want competitve skill based PvP that means a level playing field.

Rather than making PvP for Pvers such as games like Rift where the PvP is dire, because a good 1v1 with two closely matched players skillwise ends up a one sided boring faceroll (for both players) if they are mismatched in terms of level of gear.

Sky.3519:

Aether McLoud.1975:

Gear doesn’t have a place in pvp. That’s one of the things GW2 got absolutely right from the very start.

I’d love to see their PvP participation numbers. Not the numbers that say “this player has tried this once” but rather the ones that show of those who log in daily, the percentage that actually do structured PvP regularly.

I have a hunch at what they might look like.

Your hunch as to what it may look like could be correct, but then putting that down to not having to farm gear would be wrong. The MMORPG world is littered with games that have gear “progression” in PvP (like my previous MMO Rift) where the PvP population has died, because guess what, uneven gear advantage based PvP makes for crappy PvP.

The biggest complaints on this forum are things like lack of game modes, lack of matching, etc, not ‘oh please I’m desperate to level each class I play in sPvP to 80, then farm multiple sets of exotic gear for each one and pay a fortune in sigils / runes each time I want to change things’

Oxstar.7643:

Sylosi.6503:

Oxstar.7643:

I also took down a legendary weapon wielding guardian on my own so hah ^^

Beating some pver with a legndary is irrelevant to balance (quite why you are unable to grasp this, is a mystery), go try tPvP (or even go watch a decent player like Teldo) and see the difference between an engy trying to defend a point and a guardian or Ele (especially trying to hold 1v2), then you might learn something about why engys are currently weak, or alternatively continue to sound off like a (to use your word) “chump”.

rofl suck suck suck suck suck suck suck suck YOU SUCK. Sorry, but you do. I have no problems vs other classes PvP wise and the day I feel Engineers can’r give any oponent a run for the money, well, THAT’S when I’ll start complaining. Til then you can either man up like others have or keep complaining.

The only PvP that is relevant to PvP class balance is tPvP, decent players of every class can regularly 1v2 / 1v3 players in WvW, for some classes (thief/ele) they can take on more, you or anyone else doign fine in WvW has no bearing on PvP balance.

But anyway I see you opted for the second option, gratz.

Oxstar.7643:

I also took down a legendary weapon wielding guardian on my own so hah ^^

Beating some pver who has spent his time getting a legndary as opposed to practicing PvP is irrelevant to balance (quite why you are unable to grasp this, is a mystery), go try tPvP (or even go watch a decent player like Teldo) and see the difference between an engy trying to defend a point and a guardian or Ele (especially trying to hold 1v2), then you might learn something about why engys are currently weak, or alternatively continue to sound off like a (to use your word) “chump”.

Eviscera.9703:

Yea it was a nice thougt of Anet to make it skillbased and i support that.

You clearly don’t support that if you want to bring gear (non-cosmetic) into things.

Eviscera.9703:

But lets get real, You’re playing an MMORPG! You can’t just jump into a game and think you’re going to wipe the floor with your so called ‘’skills’

Actually you can, it is a bit like saying you can’t have an MMO with instanced dungeons, just because EQ had public dungeons.

Eviscera.9703:

public I’m saying that the gear should be easy to obtain and it should be useable in WvW also.
I’m saying that the farming of the PvP gear should be easy and make you want to play this game even more

It makes me want to play the game less, you can farm gear for WvW or PvE if you wish.

Eviscera.9703:

Also the spvp ain’t that successful, because the lack of progression, laddersystem etc… People want to work hard to prove that they’re the best, and people want to farm for their gear as long as it’s fun to do. The filosofy Anet is talking about is not going to make this game successful. It’s like they’re living in a dream world where everyone is equal and plays for fun… GET REAL!

The lack of a laddersystem, differnet modes, etc are an entirely different issue from adding idiotic PvE gear “progression” to PvP, in case you haven’t noticed PvP tends to die off in most MMORPGs, one of the reasons being gear differences, it makes for crappy PvP.

No need for GW2 to repeat the mistakes of other games.

Eviscera.9703:

ONLY do spvp should actually take an effort to farm their PvP gear, but it should also be fairly easy to obtain this gear because we don’t want a game that sucks out your life during the farming of your gear.

Or alternatively people should have taken the effort to research the game before buying it and read that Anet wanted the sPvP skill based, not who has the best gear and that the gear differences just make balancing even harder.

Oxstar.7643:

Doing instances now and then and some wvw, doing pretty well for myself.

I also love how people say every other class is so much better yet I keep winning.

Perhaps because WvW is largely meaningless in terms of class balance and is full of Pvers and not so good players, so anyone half decent can do well on any class, try doing some paid tPvP against people that have a clue as to what they are doing and see how many times you get instagibbed or how your engy is inferior at every role, because your class has been nerfed to death / full of bugs and is bascially weak.

Bloodstealer.5978:

… or same sex relationships…

Why is that any more of an issue than opposite sex relationships?

VOLKON.1290:

It sounds great on paper, it works better in practice if you actually do it. Anyone with a clue regarding GW2 combat is fully aware that this is much more than a “pure DPS” game. You’re allowed your opinions regardless of how wrong they are, but you’re not allowed your own facts. The examples I gave, however, only scratch the surface of the capabilities each player has with their chosen profession, the weapons they choose, the traits they select, the utilities they choose, etc.

The examples you gave simply show that generally it is DPS + some support / CC / utlility tacked on.

So what you end up is with a far less varied style of play than you get in a game with healers or that comlpex support classes give, a healer is a far more signifcant change in style from a DPS than anything you get in GW2, which is more like a glorified ARPG in terms of class design.

Furthermore there is nothing in this game that requries the level of multitasking or awareness that I needed to heal / CC / debuff / DPS / cleanse , etc on my Chlorodom in Rift when I PvPed (whilst being constantly focus fired) or to offheal/CC/keep up stun immunity/cleanse/manage pet/debuff/DPS on Loremaster in LOTRO when I raided.

About the only things the GW2 classes are step up from in terms of awareness/multitasking/complexity are simple DPS or simple tanks from other games, for some classes / builds (p/d thief for instance) not even that.

Stormy O.7025:

- Easy to comprehend from watching a match – I just needed to watch basically 1 match (from TotalHalibut on youtube) to understand the jist of Dota 2. It’s not as easy with Guild Wars 2, especially because the player can customize their build beforehand. This point is only important to get new players into the game.

Have you played LoL or HoN? Because if I were to sit someone down who has never played either type of game, I just do not see how they would find DOTA (or any MOBA) easier to understand than A GW2 map, which is far, far simpler. Matches also take far less time, so by the time I’ve watched a third of long DOTA match, I could have watched 3 GW2 games and maybe grasped things like the trebuchet / that killing the big ugly cheiftan guy gives a bonus.

With a GW2 map the basic premise is simple, there are three points, you win the game by capturing and holding points, you fight the other team, that is basically it, DOTA is far more complicated.

As for customizing a build beforehand, so what, if I were to sit someone down in front of DOTA all they would see is a screen flash up, the player very quickly select what they needed and generally be none the wiser as to what had changed.

I also think you left something off enjoyability, the actual feeling of combat, I generally find 3d combat much more engaging to actually play than 2d point and click with a very limited number of skills, the actual combat is dull.

I miss two things about playing a healer:

1 – That is offers a totally different playstyle that you don’t get in GW2, which leaves GW2 with a more limited range of playstyles.

2 – Challenge (which also equates to fun), PvPing as a healer was the most difficult thing you have to do in an MMO, coping with being constantly focus fired, having to have an awareness of both the opponents adn your own team you don’t need as DPS and having to multi-task on an entirely different level. (The same goes for games that have complex support classes)

A thread whining about people whining, good job.

I’m not sure why people think the devs simply carry out what is “whined” about in the forums, if you think they are so bad that they simply do what they are told without giving any thought as to whether the “whiners” have a point, why are you playing the game?

The last mesmer issue was simply broken, or do we just have the poor dears whining because they can no longer roll their faces accross the button for their macro?

It seems to me that nerfs have little to do with whining I have four classes at 80 (Necro, Mes, Thief & Engineer), two of them are “whined” about a lot, thief & mes, my engineer barely at all, yet my engineer as been nerfed far more than the rest of them.

Iruwen.3164:

WvW is WvW. Which means PvPvE, basically. That’s how it was designed.

There is no PvPvE, there is no versus enviroment, the “pve” elements in it are entirely inconsequential in themselves the only competitve element is provided by the other players trying to stop you from completing the “pve” objectives.

The ‘v’ stand for ‘versus’ not ‘killing’ in ‘PvP’, in WvW you compete against the other team, not the doors or odd NPC, if you having trouble knockign a door down when there are no enemy players trying to stop you, well…

aydenunited.5729:

I can’t debate WvW, but just to clarify on the post about us removing conditions:

We can remove them via:

1) A trait that makes every potion use remove a condition, giving 2 removals per potion (considering the toolbelt skills)

2) Elixir C, removes all and the toolbelt removes 1

3) Elixir R, toolbelt skill

4) 15 points into Tools line means that at 25% life, you get all of those toolbelt Elixirs back

5) Automated Response gives immunity to any new conditions applied after 25% health

6) Kit Refinement + swap to Flamethrower = 1 condition removal every 10 seconds.

7) Medikit Drop Antidote every 15 seconds + the ability to stack 2-3 on the node itself if you are playing bunker.

8) Traits in Alchemy line mean 8% of all conditions are not affecting us to begin with

How much more condition removal do we need?

If you mean my post, I specifically stated outside of an elixir build, so going 20 pts in to what is the elixir line and being forced to use elixirs is not the answer, the point being other classes do better conditon removal for less investment and allow greater build versitility. My thief for example does not have to be a hugely stealth heavy thief to have better removal than non-elixir build engies.

As for the rest:

- 15 pts again into the elxir line to have an 8% chance of removing one stack of say a zillion bleeds is weak.

- Elixir R toolbelt can indeed remove conditions, it is also far too important a survival skill to waste simply on removing conditions 90% of the time.

- Elxir C is never going in a utlity slot outside of an elixir build and even then rarely, there is too much competition for utlity slot spaces to use a skill that will be borderline useless aginst many builds.

- Toolbelt skills restore at 25%, will not have “all those elixirs” outside of an elixir build, it is very useful for stacking teh elixir R res. (thankyou Teldo)

- Automated response, 30 pts into the elixir line, again this a class that supposedly sacrifices damage for versitility / jack-of-all trades, having to go elixir build to get better than poor condition removal is the opposite of the alleged class design.

- If you are defending a point then yes, assuming you have the time you can stick a load of the 4 skill down if you use medkit, but it is a bit of niche situation and you will defend much better on your guardian, especially if you have more than 1 person to face.

You can also remove them by overcharging the healing turret, but it is on a 60 second cooldown.

There are indeed many condition removals on an engineer, however as I stated previously, outside of being pidgeon holed into an elixir build your options are weaker than many other classes for the same (or sometimes even greater) level of trait investment, that just seem entirely wrong that the alleged all-round / versatile class that gives up damage should have weaker baselevel condi removal than classes that have huge levels of damage by comparision (warrior /thief), it is simply ridiculous unbalanced design, hence why we have so many engineers playing.

aydenunited.5729:

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

The only things that stand out about engineer survivability are elixir R (which was nerfed) and dodges (but a couple of other classes can also do that and with less traits).

Incidentally for a fine example of how bad engys traits are, we have a 30 pt “grandmaster” trait – Adrenal Implant, that is exactly the same as 5 pt minor trait for Rangers – Natural Vigor.

As for the rest of it, let’s take elixir s and the three secs of invurn every 60 secs (or 90 secs, no control over it and dealing with it not triggering some of the time for the trait) and compare that to say my mesmer where I can avoid all attacks for 2 secs every 8 secs (whilst putting out decent damage), there is no comparision. Now add the survability that illusions, stealth, shatter skills, blinks and more damage provide and you have why engys are weak in comparision (without even going into how much more key utility a mesmer has).

You know another area lacking when it comes to survivability for an alleged versitile / jack of all trades class – condition removal, engineer has crappy condition removal unless you are going for some sort of elixir build. Now I expect my necro to have good condition removal, after all manipulating conditions is its thing, but my thief? For 10 points in shadow arts I get to remove conditions whilst in stealth, this is on top of a heal that removes bleeding, burning and poision, which surpasses any non-elixir build on an engineer and even an elixir build requires more trait points.

The other issue of course is the trade off between damage and survivabiity, and how that lack of damge also effects your survivability, you start off with the lowest damage as an engy, if you trait / use utlity slots to increase that, you end up with less survivabilty than other classes with equal (or at times even more damage). If you opt for more surviability then you end up doing so little damage that you won’t be able to pressure other players, whcih in turn reduces your survivability.

A versitile / jack of all trades class simply does not fit into a trait system that works on the basis of specilization, a game with no diminishing returns and being crowbarred into the same interface (hint – some of the engys problems would be alleviated by giving engys an extra utility slot)

aydenunited.5729:

Sylosi.6503:

Engineers playstyle is fun, however there are very obvious reasons as to why they are not popular (they were once more popular, especially in tPvP, but nerfs have dropped them down the pecking order in their best role), they hit like a wet kipper and do not fufil the basic premise of their class design (they are not versitile / jack of all trades), have flaws and bugs all over the shop and in most situations are simply not top tier (or often even second tier) for the job in hand.

Incidentally it has nothing to do with them being a “difficult” class, Eles are a difficult class, there is no shortage of Eles.

Sure it does, because some of us are doing just as well as any other class. But you look at the threads here… hundreds of responses in joke posts about how we suck, 5 in ones that post good builds. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

No it doesn’t, this forum is full of novelty builds like Tankicat and then videos showing a better player beating not so good / underlevelled / undergeared players in WvW, that doesn’t make Engineers on a par, all it shows is a good player will beat average / bad players, that is the same for any class and has nothing to do with balance.

TPvP is where it counts for balance (at least on the PvP side), Engineer is not considered top tier for any role, it is weak.

Engineers playstyle is fun, however there are very obvious reasons as to why they are not popular (they were once more popular, especially in tPvP, but nerfs have dropped them down the pecking order in their best role), they hit like a wet kipper and do not fufil the basic premise of their class design (they are not versitile / jack of all trades), have flaws and bugs all over the shop and in most situations are simply not top tier (or often even second tier) for the job in hand.

Incidentally it has nothing to do with them being a “difficult” class, Eles are a difficult class, there is no shortage of Eles.

People QQing about people QQing is funny.

Sprawl.3891:

sorry but trash talk comes with competition. if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen

No it doesn’t, it happens in certain areas, sport for example, but even then only certain sports in a comparable way,such as boxing, football (or soccer), etc, I don’t see Roger Federer trash talking over the net to Rafael Nadal at Wimbledon. And no the very occasional comment in an interview by a tennis player is not comparable to the stream of idiocy some children (and manboys) put forward on a regular basis in some computer games.

But anyway back to the OP, I agree, the same thing goes for a number of the WvW server threads.

Why is Bunzy playing WvW and not tPvP if he wants skillful gameplay or is his definition of skill playing against people underlevelled, undergeared, casual PvPers and Pvers who got lost on the way to the jump puzzle?

Mystic Starfish.2586:

Whereas other games you just sit there and deal damage/heal, you have to actually dodge and think when you’re playing this one, because of the lack of traditional roles. But, there are people who still insist on forcing it (banner support wars, guardian healers)

I have to move more in GW2, but I’ve played plenty of MMOs where you cannot simply stand there (Rift for instance), but as for thinking, you have to be joking. I had to do way, way more thinking, have more awareness and multitask far more on my loremaster in LOTRO than on any class in GW2.

Just like every other MMO, DPS is the least demanding role and essentially every class in GW2 is DPS with a bit of support / CC / healing tacked on, a game designed on being able to look after yourself inherently demands less awareness, thought and multitasking than all but the simplist DPS classes in other games and no amount of dodging makes up for that.

Saiyan Fap.4905:

just learn to use your class properly.

If you learn to play multiple classes properly you will understand they are not balanced (especially in WvW).

NastyPiggy.2046:

Go watch some videos by Teldo to see what you can do with the engineer in tPvP…

Then watch his stream and listen as he states engineers have been nerfed too much, that they lack survability in relation to the level of damage they can put out and how even if they go full burst (rifle static discharge) they still do less burst than certain other classes (but also whilst having much less survivability), how bomb kit is the only really good kit, how engys are very susceptable to burst, that unlike a lot of classes he has to play without making a mistake and that he is even questioning if his engy will be viable when they start playing tPvP again.

But I guess according to some of the WvW heroes on this thread, he must just be doing it all wrong and needs to L2P.

And just to make it clear, he does not spend all his time complaining, these are occasional comments or responses to questions from viewers in chat over many streams.

Killer Parakeet.9435:

Well good for those people then. My point is if the class is not working out for you, then clearly you should do something else instead of crying and hoping anet gives you a “kill” button.

You didn’t have a point, you came out with some illogical waffle that because you beat some bad/undergeared/underleveled mesmers/thiefs in WvW that it equates to the engineer being on a par (or better) than other classes, when it does nothing of the sort.

That anyone who complains merely needs to l2p, despite the fact there are people far better than you who complain about the state of the class.

The only decent measure for PvP class balance is what happens with the better players / teams in tPvP, engineers do not fair well at the moment.

Killer Parakeet.9435:

If you can’t figure out how to make that work for you then it’s not the classes fault. This whole game is about thinking on your feet and adapting to any situation thrown at you, and I believe the engineer is perfectly geared just for that.

You aren’t getting the class to work for you, you are getting it to work against bad / average players, that is totally irrelevant to class balance, that you can’t grasp that is pretty funny.

Killer Parakeet.9435:

For the record I don’t watch streams, whatever that is, I’m too busy stomping that thief after he just used HS 6 times and is now trying to run away from a fight that was just supposed to be an easy kill.

Try and work out how beating a thief that spams HS is related to beating bad players.

Killer Parakeet.9435:

No one plays engineer, so no one knows how to handle them

Well I don’t know about PvE as I avoid that in this game as the PvE is not very good (the group PvE, the world itself / exploring is pretty nice), but there used to be a lot more engineers in sPvP/tPvP, but nerfs (loss of stability, loss of flamethrower pull, smoke bomb nerf, exlixir R nerf, indirect nerf to elixir R with down state health changes, etc) have led them to drop down the pecking order, why have engy playing node defender, when an equally competent player will be more effective as a guardian?

Every good player knows how to handle them, which is why they are behind other classes for every role in the part of the game where the good players are tPvP, there are better bunkers, better team fighters, better roamers, etc.

On a side note, you do realize that in PvE and WvW, other balance issues aside that engineers are playing at a disadvantage, because you lose your weapon stats when you swap to kit.

Killer Parakeet.9435:

I just don’t understand the negative point of view here

Because you don’t really have a clue what you are talking about, thus have an inaccurate view of the balance of the engineer in relation to other classes. If the “whining” is too much for you then don’t read those threads.

As for Anet, never have I seen a game more in need of a public test server, the number of “bug fixes” that have failed to work or broken something else is astounding.

Killer Parakeet.9435:

Seems like a lot of you are doing it wrong.

Just because you’re not good at a class doesn’t make it bad. It makes you bad. Go play your “easy mode” warrior and thief.

I’m not saying this class isn’t flawed. Truth is all the classes are flawed, it’s still a new game especially considering anet spent their time during the holidays working on holiday events for obvious business reasons and taking vacation like real people do.

Engineer is not an easy class to play. I am constantly switching kits and lining up combos. I even read into situations before I get to them and change out utility skills/weapons/armor to deal with them accordingly and you know what? I ALWAYS excel. 5/10 times I will send a flavor of the month mesmer or thief running for the hills because they’re not used to being countered. 4/10 they stick around to die. And that 1/10 they actually take me down. It happens. Why? Because there is balance between classes, and the engineer is just as good as any other.

TL;DR – Engineer isn’t bad, you are bad. Go play your “easy mode”warrior class.

Not really, you will find plenty of people in these threads that are unhappy with the state of engineer actually enjoy the busy playstyle and both understand and like that it takes a bit more than say a thief, that however is a seperate issue from balance.

In PvP terms engineers are nowhere, they are not a preferred choice for any real role in tPvP, because even when played by a competent player they will not perform on the same level as other certain other classes in that role played by an equally competent player.

That you or indeed anyone else beats often terrible players (or undergeared, or underlevelled) in WvW is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with class balance.

If you ever watch streams, then you’ll find there are people a lot better than you that feel the class is not in a good place at the moment.

PCproffy.8549:

I love when you guys…

I love it when people QQ about other people QQing…

Art.9367:

Not much different than every other MMO forum, hehe.

Nor much different to any other MMO, in that GW2 has failed miserably on balance also.

Trippen.3408:

Imagine this: you have never played a video game before, you start watching a match of League of Legends or Starcraft 2 and get a general sense of who is winning, what basic strategy is being utilized, ect. The maps are easy to navigate and you easily get a general view of the whole match.

Do you think the same can be said for GW2 or any other mmorpg? No. People will start watching a match and be like ‘WTF is going on’. Mmorpgs are niche games. You have no idea what is going on unless you have played it, and even then, you have to keep up with the current meta, the latest builds, ect to actually get a good feel of what is going on.

If you have never played a video game before you will not have any more clue as to what is going on in LoL than you would in GW2, in fact I’ argue you’d have less clue as to what is going on as the basic premise of two teams fighting each other for control of three points is simpler than the various aspects of a LoL match.

How many people watch LoL that have not played it? I’d guess very, very few, if you compare the viewing figures for even the most popular “e-sport” LoL to other forms of entertainment the figures look pathetic, take South Korea out, they look even worse.

But then that is no surprise, unless you actually play the game (or used to play it or play something similar like HoN or DOTA, basically already have an interest), watching LoL is like watching paint dry, most people will not even get past the first 15 mins of whack-a-mole.

If I think people are having a fun 1 v 1 I’ll leave them, the problem is it often difficult to tell.

As for actual duelling, as in you’ve arranged it with the other person, do it somewhere out of the way, in other games with RvR type PvP there is often an agreed area where people have duels, maybe that would work, though that tends to work in games where all the participants are on one server and not anonymous.

In regard to the “it is war” comments, no it isn’t, it is a game, which is why you magically come back to life after being killed, because the point is fun not an accurate war simulation, somehow I doubt many of those proclaiming it is war, would be clamouring for permadeath to be introduced.

Having recently finished levelling one to see for myself, yes they are OP, at least when it comes to WvW, for the following reasons:

1 – In open world type PvP a fairly fundamental concept in MMORPGs is risk vs reward, the balance of this is totally off on my thief compared to the other classes I have played to 80 (Necro, Engineer & Mes).

If I muck up or misjudge the situation or am simply outplayed, I can escape combat the vast majority of the time, there is far too little risk on the thief class.

2 – It is largely faceroll to play, stealth is the next easiest defence to use after passive defences.

Also far too much is done automatically for me on my thief, it is as if the game plays it for me – I have skills to teleport me / leap to the target, skills to teleport me away from the target, I have all-in-one faceroll skills like a spammable gap closer / finsher / combo finisher or an evade / AOE bleed / combo finsher, etc.

Skills are spammable, so if I miss my dagger 4 skill to cripple someone as I chase them down, I simply try again, unlike other classes where you don’t get a second chance.

3 – As a glass cannon my thief is less glass than other classes glass cannon (mesmer is second of the ones I’ve played properly), the cries of “oh but my thief is fragile” are pathetic, stealth + mobility gives the best survivability in WvW and scales against multiple opponents far better than any level of toughness / armour / HP. For those who think thief glass cannon builds are fragile, I suggest you try something like a static discharge engineer, you will find 4277 more HP does not compare to stealth + better mobility when it comes to survivability.

Frankly I am borderline ashamed when I play my thief in WvW, at least when I played my burglar in LOTRO (it also was OP in PvP at times), but at least it was considered an advanced class and took a bit of thought / skill to play, the opposite to my thief in GW2.

mcl.9240:

Irrelevant? It’s absolutely relevant. Every game I just listed is a popular western MMO, and every single one had hardware-dependent performance issues, that were resolved in various ways by the various development teams.

No still irrelevant, you do not require a top end hand built PC for a MMORPG to be playable (unless you want to alienate most of your market), the tiny advantage someone may gain from being able to run at 60 FPS compared to 40, FPS or having a screen with 2 ms response as a opposed to 5ms, is in no way comparable to the disadvantage people would be under playing an incomplete game where some people could see the opposing players and others could not.

I could go and dig out my old PC from the cupboard and would still be able to PvP fine in WoW, LOTRO, etc on it on lower settings or using a low res download and not be faced with a disadvantage like you are suggesting people should play with in GW2 (invisible players).

mcl.9240:

As for your “playable” comment: Do you think WvWvW, with all its current culling problems, is “playable” now?

Not especially, which is why they are working on it, much better they actually solve the issue properly, rather than band-aid over it, but then WvW has more serious issues than culling…

mcl.9240:

PC gaming has always been like this: There are people who buy or build top-end systems who have higher framerates, better rendering, larger FOV, better sound (and sound localization), more accurate mice, faster texture load times, more bandwidth and lower latency, faster memory and disk access, etc. etc. etc.

And then there are people who buy mediocre or low-end systems, or just never bother upgrading their years-old machine. And they have low framerates, stuttering, high latency, dropped packets, slow rendering, slow disk and memory access, crappier sound, poor mouse tracking, and so on.

It’s true in all games.

Most of which is utterly irrelevant and untrue, outside of niches like competitve FPS (which is a very different market from a casual MMORPG like GW2), all a better PC lets me do when it comes to most games, is play with prettier graphics, have lower loading times, run multiple screens & run other software whilst playing.

Which is a very different thing from invisible opponents, I’d rather beat someone fairly than through them not being able to see me just because I have a better PC.

Nor is it simply the PC has stated, it is also the connection, people are limited to what connection they can get by where they live, as long as they meet the specified requirements, it is Anet’s duty to provide the product they paid for.

mcl.9240:

If they can’t afford it, they should understand that they can’t expect top-end performance from a low-end box. A video game is not an entitlement; performance is not welfare.

I’m sure they don’t, but then if they meet the specified requirements then they are entitled to expect it to be playable.

elderan.2638:

Habib: The consensus here is pretty clear, since many people are suggesting essentially the same thing: that culling should be placed in settings where the user can control it. Those who have bandwidth or rendering issues can simply leave culling on and have the exact same performance they get now. Those who have systems that can handle the increased bandwidth/rendering would have the option to turn off culling completely. If this is at all possible, please consider implementing this.

No thanks, my system is way above min specs, but giving me and anyone else the option to turn it off and thereby creating a two tier PvP system with those that can see other players and those that can’t, is simply a bad idea. (nor for that matter would it necessarily solve the issues)

Gilgamesh.2561:

LoL figured it out. We just need the LoL developers to make a PvP MMO.

You mean ultra dull combat mechanics, 15 mins of whack a mole at the start of each game and raging 12 year olds…

Raven.9603:

Engineers are doing great..

How a class that is not top tier at anything in tPvP and is hugely underepresented because of that is doign great is a mystery.

Raven.9603:

this is the video game forums, where people complain because the more they can sell the perception that their class is bad, the more likely they will be buffed.

Only the few delusional enough to think the devs blindly change things based on forum feedback, which clearly isn’t the case, barely anyone complains about engys being OP, yet it is one of the most nerfed classes.

Raven.9603:

2 of these videos are made post patch, and the 3rd if anything shows that a grenade nerf was hardly going to make the class unplayable:
1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kaYsIR0kYg
2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tTIWYXabmM
3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9IdpgUJCvs

And? There are videos of better players beating average or bad players in WvW for every class, in terms of balance these videos are meaningless, tPvP is where it counts (at least in regard to PvP balance), where engineers have slowly dropped down the pecking order as they have been nerfed. (removal of stability trait, smoke bomb nerf, etc).

Penguin.5197:

I am almost positively sure that when the weapon stats are added to kits, another slight nerf will happen and we are back to square one.

Doesn’t seem logical given engineers skillls are already balanced to take account of those stats (from amulet/jewel instead of weapon) in sPvP.

Doomdesire.9365:

Escape comes with mobility. I think thieves should have mobility. That’s what the thief is all about. Someone who “steals”(or in this case, attacks, mugs, whatever you want to call it) and gets away. Isn’t that in the name, thief?

If we are going by what the names imply then I should have stealth on my thief, not invisibility.

I’ve been levelling a thief (now 61) to see for myself and I agree with the OP, it is not merely culling, if you take a couple of stealth traits like the +1 sec one in shadow arts, plus have a utility or two that give stealth (especailly shadow refuge) and you have the heal that gives stealth, you can chain stealths together to get quite a period of stealth, then you can get stealth on steal or stealth if you take more than 10% of your HP in damage in a single attack. That is all without having to even hit anyone with cloak & dagger…

In defensive terms it is actually better (as in more powerfuul) than permastealth in other games, because in WvW you can stealth for long enough to get away, but you can also do it multiple times, FROM COMBAT, nor are you knocked out of stealth by damage.

Which is a big problem, risk vs reward is a fundamental part of PvP in MMORPGs, yet the balance on my thief is completely out compared to say my enginerer or necro, if I muck up on my thief or misjudge a situation, 95% of the time I can escape, even on a low level character with often out of date gear, there is a total lack of risk, which is why there are so many glass cannon thieves running about.

On a side note, it probably doesn’t help in terms of annoying players, that it is a very easy class to play, you have faceroll teleports to target, faceroll evades, do really high damage with few button presses, not havng to rely on combos and that is also very easy to apply.

The class is just poorly designed, it seems devs can never learn invisibility + big burst + ability to escape is an unbalanceable failure in every game it is in.

Sprawl.3891:

Last time I checked it is just fine to hurl abuse at strangers, I watch a lot of sports, political shows and listen to talk radio and the most popular shows are the ones that hurl the most abuse at bad players, political opponents, etc

You didn’t check correctly.

If you’ve watched sports then you will know in tennis for instance players are given a court violation for swearing, and abuse of the umpire / crowd can even lead to disqualification.

But guess what, a tennis match or any other sporting match, nor a dumb talk radio show is ‘society’, but of course feel free to test your theory and go out and find a police officer then start hurling expletives at them, then ignore their warnings to stop then see what happens.

Did your parents teach you it is perfectly fine to hurl abuse at strangers?

Sprawl.3891:

you are acting equally childish by reporting them when there’s a million ways to avoid it. filter, turn map chat off, leave zone, or just right click block. so hard.

Not really, I wasn’t refering to swearing by itself, I’m fine with swearing (and if I wasn’t I would indeed use the filter), I’m talking about personal attacks (which often do use expletives, but not always and is what people get banned for), if you want to go around insulting strangers then you need to learn to take responsibilty for your actions, like an adult.

Of course the best option is simply not to make personal attacks on people you don’t know, to use your words “so hard”.

Sprawl.3891:

i guess we are just cut from a different cloth. If someone starts swearing at me I laugh and troll them. If they were truly starting to bother me by spamming me or something I just block them. problem solved. Reporting someone on a computer game is just childish in my opinion, theres a million ways to avoid it unlike real life.

Making personal attacks on people in a computer game is what is childish, it is pretty simple, if people want to behave like kids in the school playground then they should expect to get treated like them.

Sprawl.3891:

god forbid you ever attend a professional sporting event, your virgin ears will be ruined by both the fans and players.

Reporting people for cussing is childish. Mommy, timmmy said the f word!!

I seem to remember from the Reddit topic on this, that they are likely to turn a blind eye simply to someone swearing, it is when someone starts making personal attacks they will get banned if reported, which seems fair enough.

As for sporting events, depends on the sport, lots of the stuff chanted at football matches would be deemed unacceptable at a tennis match.

Oxstar.7643:

Funny how I keep stomping thieves in both spvp and wvwvw then, haha.
Go up against a good engy and enjoy getting trashed.

That a good player will beat an average or bad player is entirely irrelvant, what matters in regards to balance is that in tPvP for example a good engy will be outperformed by a good guardian as a bunker, a good engy will be outperformed by a good thief as a roamer, etc.

Archonis.7249:

I find it hilarious when people complain about WvW balance…

I find it hilarious when terrible gamers defend flawed imbalanced design, also known as QQing.

Archonis.7249:

mainly it is the PvEers that are complaining. They are in a PvP situation, but it feels like PvE. So when they die, that salt of PvP in the wound of PvE makes them come in here and rage. Because they don’t know how to control their fights without an extremely structured script.

Thief/Rogue/Assassin types are always the first to get railed on and the first to get QQ, from PvEers trying to PvP. I think that it is due to most mobs, except for Skelks don’t stealth. So they have almost NO idea how to deal with them.

Nonsense, the reason the thief class in particular recieves complaints is that it breaks a fairly fundamental PvP concept in MMORPGs of risk vs reward, there is simply too little risk for the class (especially in WvW), it is mind boggling how many more times I have got away with mistakes or misjudging the situation on my level 50 thief that I’m levelling compared to my geared out lvl 80 engineer or necro.

Thief/rogues are indeed often the first to get nailed in games, because devs keep using the flawed design of invisibilty + big burst + abilty to escape which is unblanceable.

Incidentally I spend most of time in PvP in MMORPGs, you’ll find the “QQing” comes from PvPers that want balance, it isn’t an issue for Pvers that can’t cope with getting killed they tend not to stay in PvP for long or they roll the thief/assassin class .

EU is Piken Square.