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Yea, and ranger can also stealth, but its thiefs unique mechanic just like attunments are for elementalist. By your words, how stealth isnt countered by DPS if thief can be damaged while in stealth? If that is your logic, then there is already counter to stealth, its called AoE. Channeled skills also continue to damage stealthed enemy…
Anyone who plays a thief knows AoE is not a counter. When I WvW on my thief, the chance of one guy hitting me enough times with AoE attacks is very small, even if I am crippled or chilled. The only counter to stealth in this game is hard CC (stun/immoblize) followed by immediate burst damage (assuming shadowstep is on cooldown or not equipped), however as a counter it is weak and unbalanced, many builds lack the burst damage, many lack even hard CC or those that do have it, have it on longish cooldowns and it can be broken by shadowstep or dodged (often easily , things like engy netshot)
The thief stealth design in this game is the worst peice of OP garbage I have ever seen (in regard to WvW):
- You can’t be knocked out of stealth by damage.
- You are not prevented from stealthing by damage.
- You have multiple in-combat stealths, in most games you get 1 on a long cooldwon 2/3 mins.
- No class has stealth detection.
When you combine that with how the game plays thief for you, e.g – teleports to target, teleports you out of danger, so even if a player is constantly moving it is very easy for the theif to get right next to them, you have possibly the worst class design ever.
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Or we can act as spoiled silver spoon brats, demanding it and not careing for objective reasons to why there are such limits.
I stoped taking you seriously moment you said that lead designer doesn’t understand game he made. Luckly there you are to teach him since you understand it way better than people that created it.
If a game is promoted as a triple AAA MMORPG that will be as good as any sub based game then that is what people expect, when it turns out the game lacks resources and makes bad design decisions based on the lack of resources, expect people to be complain about that.
They made a game where if you have more than one condition build playing it is likely it will become a disadvantage, three condi builds plus it certainly will, this is the game that was promoted as “play the game your way”.
As for game designers, they fail to see stuff all the time, knowing the technical side, does not magically make them perfect, which is why most games have public test servers. (Never played a game where so many bug “fixes” either don’t work or create another bug)
You want an example of how devs sometimes cannot see the obvious, Rift, they decided to implement passively applied 50% healing debuffs, lots of “mere” players told them it would not work, because they had seen it fail in other games, because you could not balance the healing when sometimes it would have a near constant 50% debuff on, others none at all, guess what the players were right, Rift dumped the passively applied healing debuffs some time later.
Conquest is just such a ridiculously bad mode for unorganized PvP.
To an extent I agree, however in the last MMO I played (Rift) many peoples favourite map (The Codex) was conquest mode, however there were a couple of differences that made it work much, much better for pugs becasue it required less organisation:
1 – The central point ticked for more points (5pts, the others ticked for 3pts), so even an unorganised pug knew holding the central point, plus one other (your near point) meant you won.
It also meant the central point was normally busy, (unless the other team were trying to win by controlling the other three points, which only happens in a minority of games), so not so much standing around once you’ve captured the central point, as normally a good chunk of the other team would be back soon to try and recapture it, ideal for those with the short attention span.
2 – Three out of the four points were very close together, which meant an unorganised pug (or at least a couple of their players) fighting in the center or up on the central point, could very quickly respond when the enemy tried to cap one of the other two nearby flags and could very easily see how many of the enemy where at that point. Which requries pretty much zero organisation unlike maps where the points are not visible from each other and in many cases quite some distance away.
3 – You were actually rewarded for winning, the win bonus (plus more points awarded for objectives, killing opponents near objectives, etc) was sufficiently large enough that the general pattern was the winning team gained more favor (glory) than the losing team, if you played well on the losing the team you would outscore some of the winning team players.
The map design / scoring in GW2 in terms of hotjoin for casual players / pugs with obviously no voice comms, is absolutely terrible and has made for probably the worst “casual” instanced PvP I have ever played, hence I play it very little, it has also achieved the miraculous feat of making pugs in other games look like pre-mades in comparision.
The only thing I can say in defence of Anet, is the playerbase is also equally terrible when it comes to communication, in other games people communicate far more in instanced PvP and work together far more to try and actually win the match. (I am talking hotjoin/pug obviously), but then that just makes their non-pug friendly map design / poorly though out score system, all the worse…
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dw i have screenshot of viz shooting our siege weapons of inner bay earlier today in Elona BL……… viz viz viz, i have nothing to say to you guys anymore.
you got a hole over the gate, if you look into that you can target inside, quite simple really.
If you are near the gate you can do that, they are not near the gate, you can’t target the floor of the courtyard from way back there unless you “magically” have a different FOV to everybody else.
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Well there are far less servers on the hotjoin in sPvP, there are less queues in WvW and the only place that I ever go to overflow these days is Lion’s Arch, so yes the population seems to be declining (It seemed to increase a bit at Christmas).
But then that is the pattern for most MMORPGs.
MMO’s didn’t start to die in 2004. As a genre they flourished.
They started to die as MMOs, these days many of them are more like glorified co-ops with a 3d lobby, the most MMO aspect left is indeed PvP like WvW.
As a genre they are stagnant, both in ideas and growth, you want to see floursihing look at LoL, which has grown to 32 million active accounts, whilst outside of WoW and EVE Online (not that EVE has impressive numbers, but is merely unusual for the “staggering achivement” of releasing a product that has actually shown growth over the long term) , MMOs simply don’t grow long term, they decline and even WOW & EVE are simply treading water.
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I am not a carebear and jps suck.
If you weren’t a carebear you would be playing EVE, Mortal Online, Darkfall Unholy Wars Beta etc, not a game with carebear PvP where this is no real open world, no PvP servers, where there is no player looting, etc, in short a real PvP MMO.
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However the ranking system yields more or less balanced matchups.
The scores don’t seem to indicate much balance to me, there are only 7 matchups out of 17 (EU + NA) where the 3rd place team is within 60k of the 1st place team, and really 60k is not even really close given it amounts to around a half to a third of many teams scores.
You know what happens when people don’t have a fair chance of winning, they get bored and leave and that part of the game dies off.
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Don’t accept random group invites if you’re the sensitive type?
I’ll fix that for you: “Don’t accept random group invites if you’re an adult that finds the sexually frustrated rage of teens and manboys tiresome”
You realize there are separate teams for different aspects of the game, right? The team fixing traits and skills that you expertly identified with precision above is different than the team putting out new content.
You realize that is irrelevant to his question, right?
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The most OP model is huge charr mesmers that fill my screen and block my view with their illusions.
At least legendary rewards are tangible. You can show them off to someone. “Prestige” of racking up player kills is unverifiable. There’s no way for another person to objectively tell how many people you’ve killed.
I wish “fun” was enough of a motivation for me.
If you are playing a game to “show off” that you’ve played a game enough hours to get a different set of non-existent pixels for your non-existent item, rather than for fun, you need to seek professional help.
But anyway, back to the OP, quite how PvP in a PvP zone ruins things is a mystery, if you don’t like PvP don’t enter WvW.
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Every class should get a utility skill that gives 25% movemnt boost, it would be a choise for each player.
Yes and give every class stealth, every class a teleport, every class a portal until all the classes are the same…
thats just a stupid answer and not at all relevant, being able to get around a little faster is nothing special or class specific, portals, teleports and stealth are class skills.
Well I guess if you are new to these things and aren’t too quick on the uptake, then you might consider it stupid, because you clearly don’t realize that things like the amount of swiftness a class has access to is part of class balacne as much as any other boon or any other skill.
You also obviously don’t do any PvP, if you think that mobility is just there “to get round a little quicker”.
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Every class should get a utility skill that gives 25% movemnt boost, it would be a choise for each player.
Yes and give every class stealth, every class a teleport, every class a portal until all the classes are the same…
People complaining about zergs in a WvW game is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever came across. What do you expect everybody to do? Run around solo accomplishing nothing? Zergs make WvW fun for many, many people. I don’t think this game should hold your hand to make it so it’s “fair and fun” for you.
The inability of some to grasp the reasons people complain against zergs (in most cases), is what is dumb.
Zerging is a perfectly valid tactic, however the issue that has been pointed out time and time again is that various elements of the design of WvW / combat in this game favour it too much, making it a better “strategy” than it should be, a few of those things are:
- The silly AOE limit.
- The rez system.
- The small map size / proximity of objectives / how fast objectives fall to a large group.
All of which give added advantage to the larger group over the small group, the fact that a large group outnumbers a smaller group should be enough advantage in itself, all these poor design decisions, do not make for fun, varied WvW.
As for ‘hand holding’, the zerg friendly design is just that.
So to me evey single WvW Person who claims that all there is to PvE is A Certain Dungeon to me … dosnt get PvE What So ever
It isn’t WvW players who don’t get what PvE is, it is the 90% of Pvers who consider PvE = dungeons (at level cap). But then the truth of the matter is, PvE in most MMORPGS these days is more like a glorifed co-op with a lobby than a “massively multiplayer” experience or an RPG with a living breathing world, things like instanced dungeons and LFG tools saw to that.
At least PvE Wont rage at you if you dislike a Event or a certain aspect of PvE While WvW Players will rage at you for getting angry for being kitten on your way to the group, and then rage at you for not getting to the commander/group …
good jorb <3
These games are full of immature kids / manboys, there is raging or bad behaiour in all parts of the game, which is why there are threads in this forum on people getting kicked from groups in PvE with no explanation, for no reason, at the boss by people who then invite their guild mates, etc (PvPers behave far better in this regard) and if you think no one has ever raged out in a raid in one of these games, think again.
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I can’t figure out why anybody plays WvWvW. There are no rewards, huge costs, and the outcome of all battles is determined strictly by which side happens to have the most players.
Can someone please explain what motivates people to play WvWvW?
Thank you.
Because playing against players is more challenging, more surprising and more fun, than scripted content like dungeons, which gets old fast and offers little challenge.
As for rewards, who cares, they are not real, if you are not playing because you find the gameplay fun, then you are doing it wrong.
It’s not that Anet isn’t listening. It’s that people aren’t patient.
It has nothing to do with lack of patience, it is to do with the release of a half finsihed, buggy product that was not ready (despite Anet’s mantra of “when it’s ready”), that lacked basic features in some areas of the game, and that has since been very slow to fix those bugs, looks underesourced in certain areas and has shown an inability to perform adequate quality control / testing (and yet has no public test server…).
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You seem misunderstand my post. The point isn’t that viewers would understand everything presented to them all the time. The point is that SC in all its complexity is able to presented itself as drama.
This seems very subjective to me, I don’t see any more drama in SC than GW2 (or numerous other games), if the game is getting near the end and the score is close in a GW2 game and mid is being contested, far is being contested, then svanir pops, the outcomes of which will decide the result, that is drama.
But ignoring that, decisions in SC (I never mentioned SCII, but this kind of applies as well) are still very easy to understand as the little intricacies of unit choice, build order and upgrades can be explained in no more than one sentence. It’s the same deal with MOBAs. The complexities like laning, fog of war, buffs, wards in maps are easy to understand when you’re watching the game because they’re intuitive. The intricacies are these games are no more difficult to understand than football. If anything both games, like football, have announcers and broadcasters that make it even easier to understand and usually more exciting. Guild Wars 2 has no such luxury.
I entirely disagree, I know people who quit SC because of the level of knowledge required to be good at it, the notion that those uneducated in the game will have a clue to the intricacies of a match is ludricous.
In regard to real sport, there is no comparision, all but the simplist of video games need to be played to be understood to any real extent (certainly the lieks of LoL, DOTA, SC, etc), where as a lot of sports are beyond simple in comparision (they are also far more visual and provide info to the viewer in a far more accessible form), sports also have other things that engage people like atomsphere, athleticism, artistry, personalities / emotions (newsflash – a camera showing 4 teens staring at screens does not cut it).
As for announcers / broadcasters, all I can say is mute button, they are terrible, but then that goes for a lot of real sports commentators as well.
Assuming that people with no interest at all in the videogame is absurd. That’s why it’s not my premise of my statements. The premise was that eSports like SC and the Dota clones are exciting to watch and easy to understand. That helps to bring new viewers in and that’s intrinsically good for them because it makes them popular to watch and the promise of popularity brings in sponsorships, and so forth. And, as you said, this also helps bring in new players who want to try the game. Intrinsically good.
Your premise is still absurd, they are not easy to understand, which is why watching them is only of interest to those who play the game (or previously played it) and have knowledge of the game.
I haven’t been keeping track, but what’s the raw number of active LoL players? And how big is 25% of that? Seeing as how LoL is the most casual of the clones, 25% of the entire active player base being interested in watching high level play may not be unsurprising. Maybe the other 75% aren’t interested in high level play. Does this take into account the Korean base where the eSports scene is at its largest?
I don’t keep track either, I just remember last year Riot announced about 8m people watched their finals, and Riot stated they have about 32 million active accounts.
Hence why I think your premise is incorrect, the reality is the vast majority of people that watch “e-sports” have knowledge of the games they watch / play the game, that some games have some aspects that are a bit easier to understand are irrelevant, the vast majority of the audience already understands the game as I’d suggest the vast majority of the audience play (or have played) the game.
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It shouldn’t come as a surprise that ‘trinity’ gets more mentions in a game that attempts to get away from the commonly used trinity. Saying that I’ve seen ‘trinity’ mentioned many times in other games, not least because if you’ve been playing games long enough you will remember ‘trinty’ originally meant tank, healer and CC, not DPS. So as DPS are still ten a penny they should really of changed it to the ‘duo’ (tank + healer) in games that have dumbed things down enough to the point support/CC is not a vital role anymore.
But anyway I agree that it is mentioned a lot in GW2, though I find it irritating for a different reason, which is that many GW2 players seem to think GW2 not using it is something new (the same goes for the more action type combat system), it has been fairly typical in action MMORPGs (Darkfall, Vindictus, etc) for years that there is no real healer, and / or real tank like in Rift, WoW, etc.
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Some things GW2 does indeed do very well, such as the crafting / depositable resources interface, the tells on any character and as of yet not pay-2-win (though to be fair the game is not free either so there is less pressure on that than a f2p game).
However much of your list is absolutley nothing new (and in some cases is done better in other games) such as public grouping / events, wardrobe / costumes, the general UI (GW2 lacks options to customize), lore / story, holiday events, etc.
Guild Wars 2 is a game that requires viewers to understand the intricacies of the hidden profession traits and utilities chosen before the match even begins. Non-GW2 players watching a GW2 steam are not going to know that the Elemenalist who’s dodging in Earth Attunement into a lava font is actually stacking might because he’s happens to be carrying Evasive Arcana or that his Guardian friend is pounding aimlessly into the field to buff the team with more might stacks. The decisions behind those actions isn’t visible to these viewers. When you factor in the speed at which combat takes place, each fight is like the game is yelling a thick and foreign language at these viewer without first priming them; it can be incomprehensible and even disorienting.
Sorry, but your post makes no sense, if I put someone in front of SC2 who has never played they will be just as clueless about the decisions as they would for GW2, they don’t know why a player uses one type of unit against a certain type of unit of his opponent, they would need knowledge of the game, the decisions behind the actions of players in SC2 (or LoL) are no more visible to players than they are in GW2.
In fact I’d suggest GW2 as a match is easier to understand than a MOBA, the maps in GW2 are simpler, capture / hold the points, get points for the NPCs (the new viewer may miss that they also buff), compare that to LoL map for a new viewer who has no knowledge of the game, it is much more complicated, and even though they can see certain build aspects they will not understand them without knowledge of the game (e.g – they won’t understand the choice of composition of heros / bans before the gaems start, they will learn nothing from when the player spends gold, not they they will even see the choices much of the time as teh player will make those choices too fast).
But perhaps most importantly, your whole theory is predicated on a false premise, that games are watched by people with no interest or knowledge of the game, even the most popular “e-sport” LoL only gets figures equivalent to about 25% of its active userbase (and that is for finals, normal viewing figures for LoL are much less), when you factor in ex-players who may watch, how many of its viewers do you think have zero knowledge of the game, I’d suggest very, very few and most of those few will not be watching it as an “e-sport”, but merely to see if it is game they might try.
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GW2 is not a skill based game. If you want that, go to League of Legends, or Starcraft 2. MMOs in general require little skill to play. That’s why they’re going back to the “one skill bar” style of play, that requires little thought to play.
LoL requries skill? How? Everyone I know that is into MOBAs tells me LoL is easy mode, that when they go from say HoN to LoL everythign is so slow, requires so little twitch it is a joke.
All LoL requries is teamwork and knowledge, mechcanically it is a very easy, pretty slow paced game to play, much easier in that department than the likes of GW2.
Which is one of the reasons it is so popular, it is a pretty easy game.
I did mention Rift. They changed stuff all the time. This isn’t indicative of fixing stuff. This is indicative of changing stuff. You really think that Rift was balanced? Really? Okay then.
So every day I log in and I have to reset my cleric and my rogue and my mage because they couldn’t get the skills right. Almost every day. Sure I got a free point reset, but that wasn’t the point. Why did the skills change all the time? Skills deleted. Skills added. Skills moved from one point in the tree to another.
No I don’t think Rift was balanced, but on the other hand it has way, way more skills and combinations of skills so is much harder to balance, regardless of which it is irrelevant to the point, which was bugs / broken skills etc.
And two months after launch with all the changes there were MORE bugs in Rift than at launch. Not less. Do you remember Rift’s first big event. How half the people got stuck in queues and couldn’t get in. And that was on the servers the event actually worked on.
Yet is still launched with less bugs than GW2 and when you consider how many more skills there are in Rift, that just makes GW2 look even worse. Then when you compare three or four months into Rift and how many of the class skill bugs had been fixed to the pages and pages of bugs / broken skills / traits in GW2 after teh same time, well…
As for the event, you mean it was about as useless as the cursed shore event.
I guess you weren’t there for Warhammer or AoC’s launch. Or Aion.
No, though I do seem to remember people telling me Warhammer was terribly buggy and that this was in part the reason it lost population so quick, the last two MMORPGs I was there at launch for were Rift & LOTRO, both were better than GW2 in terms of bugs / broken stuff.
Look at ANY MMO forum six months out, try SWToRs, or probably even WoW’s and see what people were saying on those forums. They look pretty much like these forums.
To a certain extent I agree (LOTRO excepted), but than this just shows why many programmers, project managers, etc view the games industry in a poor light, people would be fired / taken to court in other fields, if they released software in the state many games companies do.
I’d also add Anet made a rod for their own back, by saying they would not make the mistakes other companies had and that it would be released “when it’s ready”, then doing precisely what other companies had done and released a buggy / incomplete product.
This would of been less of an issue if they were actually quick to fix things, but they are not, they have been slower than any other game I’ve played, six months in and my engineer and necro are still full of bugs, there are still numerous DE bugged out, WvW is still full of exploits and orbs are still missing becasue of their inability to sort it, they’ve managed to introduce numerous bugs through trying to fix / add stuff (e.g – Asura engineers rubberband when they use elixir S since they changed FOV, nothing seems to be done about this) and so on.
Their lack of speed is especially annoying on what are virtually game breaking bugs, for example they were told time and again about the guardian block bug in sPvP, it took weeks, and weeks for them to get round to a fix, yet it had an absolutely huge impact on playing sPvP.
Yet they throw resources at fluff like events, it boggles the mind…
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Hell, did you try WoW at launch. That game was a mega disaster.
True, but on the other hand it launched at time when there was much less competition and the playerbase had different expectations. If a game does not cut it today, it is much easier to go off and find an alternative.
The only game I remember launching that had less bugs than Guild Wars 2 was Rift…
Really? I am struggling to think of a game that had for example more bugged quests / evetns than GW2 had at launch, I am also struggling to think of a game that had more bugs / broken class skills / traits than GW2, perhaps more importantly I am struggling to think of a game that is slower to address those broken / bugged skills / traits than GW2.
You mention Rift, they would regularly put out 3 or 4 patches a week after a big update to fix fundamental things like skills not working properly, I have never played a game so slow to fix fundamental things like class skills / traits (and on top of that then manages to break them so often with “fixes”) as GW2.
It almost beggars belief that they put seemingly huge resources into fluff like events, whilst parts fo teh core gameplay like skills/traits/minion AI, etc remain broken for months.
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Heck, Rift has faster queue times for the 50-59 bracket.
Lol, Rift is the perfect example of why gear progression in PvP is awful, the PvP was terrible, fresh 50’s were thrown into warfronts with fully geared players (or even worse people with raid weapons and 2/3 bits of raid gear for the OP set bonus), who then had full PA and they nearly had to be AFK to lose.
And guess what, people left in their droves (if I remember correctly there were more PvP servers than PvE at launch) precisely because of gear differences and the utterly terrible PvP that resulted in, and they left from both ends, not just players at the low end were fed up of fighting at a huge disadvantage, but at the other end because good players who wanted fun PvP were not getting it fighting opponents who could not fight back.
The only people that liked it were Pvers who did PvP as a side game (most of Rift’s population) or the sort of nabs who were so bad they needed gear to compensate for their own ability and were the type to go to low level zones in world PvP and gank low level players.
The notion that you should have gear progression in PvP is just mind numblingly dumb, in PvE terms it is the equivilent of the players who have just hit level cap trying to do the end game raid in the newb gear and on the other end it is end game raiders facerolling the newb level cap dungeon, on both accounts it is boring, poor gameplay.
As for Rift’s PvP population, I logged into Bloodiron (the only PvP server on the EU English group left) a couple of weeks ago, there were 17 level 60s in total, as a PvP game Rift is not a good or successful model.
About the only thing good about Rift PvP (other than more varied playstyles with the game having healers) is they offered more game modes & more team size options, which in regard to the casual or just hopping on for 20 mins for fun is much better strutcutre than hotjoin, people used to (for the most part) actually carry out the objectives in warfronts, unlike hotjoin where conquest is probably the worst possible mode for pugs.
So on the hotjoin front Anet seem to be stuck halfway between LoL and halfway between games like Rift /WoW, and it does not work, they need to make a decision, if they want to adhere to stricitly one gaem mode, then 8v8 has to go and they need matched / ranked queues including a solo / duo queue. Or if they want to keep 8v8 and have that more for fun, then they need to do it properly and add more modes, more appropriate modes for pugs like capture the flag that will work better for 8v8.
yet despite how bad rift pvp is it still has more maps, game modes, and faster queues and likely more active pvpers than gw2.
I can only speak for the EU English group, it is down to one PvP server, at anything but peak times there is barely anyone on (two days ago there were 8 level 60 defiants on), there are way more people playing GW2 sPvP (let alone WvW, as most people in Rift think Conquest is terrible) on the EU than Rift.
And as I said in my previous post Anet need to make theri mind up, to either go the LoL route (and remove 8v8) or not, in which case more maps / modes at least for 8v8 would be good, but that has nothing to do with the idiocy of introducing gear “progression” in PvP, which anyone that played Rift knows, caused many, many players to leave.
Whatever the troubles of GW2, looking to a game like Rift which has had its PvP population collapse is not the best place to look for solutions.
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Heck, Rift has faster queue times for the 50-59 bracket.
Lol, Rift is the perfect example of why gear progression in PvP is awful, the PvP was terrible, fresh 50’s were thrown into warfronts with fully geared players (or even worse people with raid weapons and 2/3 bits of raid gear for the OP set bonus), who then had full PA and they nearly had to be AFK to lose.
And guess what, people left in their droves (if I remember correctly there were more PvP servers than PvE at launch) precisely because of gear differences and the utterly terrible PvP that resulted in, and they left from both ends, not just players at the low end were fed up of fighting at a huge disadvantage, but at the other end because good players who wanted fun PvP were not getting it fighting opponents who could not fight back.
The only people that liked it were Pvers who did PvP as a side game (most of Rift’s population) or the sort of nabs who were so bad they needed gear to compensate for their own ability and were the type to go to low level zones in world PvP and gank low level players.
The notion that you should have gear progression in PvP is just mind numblingly dumb, in PvE terms it is the equivilent of the players who have just hit level cap trying to do the end game raid in the newb gear and on the other end it is end game raiders facerolling the newb level cap dungeon, on both accounts it is boring, poor gameplay.
As for Rift’s PvP population, I logged into Bloodiron (the only PvP server on the EU English group left) a couple of weeks ago, there were 17 level 60s in total, as a PvP game Rift is not a good or successful model.
About the only thing good about Rift PvP (other than more varied playstyles with the game having healers) is they offered more game modes & more team size options, which in regard to the casual or just hopping on for 20 mins for fun is much better strutcutre than hotjoin, people used to (for the most part) actually carry out the objectives in warfronts, unlike hotjoin where conquest is probably the worst possible mode for pugs.
So on the hotjoin front Anet seem to be stuck halfway between LoL and halfway between games like Rift /WoW, and it does not work, they need to make a decision, if they want to adhere to stricitly one gaem mode, then 8v8 has to go and they need matched / ranked queues including a solo / duo queue. Or if they want to keep 8v8 and have that more for fun, then they need to do it properly and add more modes, more appropriate modes for pugs like capture the flag that will work better for 8v8.
Of course the most important thing they could of learnt from Rift, they didn’t, which is don;t launch an incomplete PvP system (e.g – without matching making), becsue by the time you try and implement it, a huge chunk of your population will of already left and trying to implement it with a small playerbase will render the matchmaking ineffective, because you will end up with a combination of eithe rshort queues / poor matchmaking or long queues / better matchmaking, and in either case may end up playing against same opponents too often.
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*The WoW pvp system is as good as something can be at the moment.
No it isn’t, Arena is permanently unbalanced and simplistic, which is dull, hence despite the huge sub base it failed as an e-sport. Not just with WoW, look at Bloodline Champions compared to LoL or DOTA 2, Arena is just too simplistic.
Which is why it got dropped from tournies / leagues like MLG.
Nobody buys games anymore to just PVE, especially not online games.
Sure they do, or at least many buy them mostly for PvE and view PvP as just a side game.
Stop making us grind for nothing, give us incentives. PvP for better gear, with a ranked system so my gear is not putting me at an advantage versus newer players…whoa wasn’t that simple?
Terrible idea, gear differences produce bad unbalanced PvP.
If your argument is Anet should copy success then surely they should lookng at LoL with its 30 million plus playerbase rather than WoW.
About the only thing they could learn from WoW is to offer more variety, at least as ‘just for fun’ options, but they clearly lack resources so the likelyhood of either smaller group (2v2/3v3) or larger say 15 vs 15 or guild vs guild, appearing any time soon does not seem high, maybe a different (non-ranked) game mode is more likely.
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Remember all servers are in Texas, to my knowledge, so they could do this without real latency concerns.
They aren’t, the EU servers are in Frankfurt, Germany, so yes there would be latency / packet loss concerns.
So no, merging them is not a viable solution.
Something I’ve never understood. Why is it that Asia and Oceanic can play on NA servers without worrying about latency but Europe cannot?
They do worry about it, they simply have no choice in many games and have to suffer a sub-par performance. I have a couple of Aussie friends, given the choice they much prefer games with Aussie servers, because when they play on NA servers they are often playing at 400ms, have to put up with far more lag spikes and have a higher level of packet loss, basically they play with a handicap and sometimes lose encounters simply because of that.
I also have North American friends who are / were into sPvP and tried out playing on the EU servers and many simply gave up on that, because there was a noticable difference in performance and it was frustrating having to play at a disadvantage, and that was sPvP which requires far less data sent than WvW.
A dev has already posted in one of these threads that they have localized data centers for technical / performance reasons, quite why some people are unable to grasp this is a mystery.
The general playerbase of MMOs has been deterioting ever since MMOs (or most of them) began to base their games on the core principle of farming for gear in an instanced dungeon, not to mention the solofication of the world / questing.
People used to be far more helpful, far more tolerant, because MMORPGs used to have mechanisms in that encouraged that such as public dungeons where you had to compete against / cooperate with other groups to actually complete (yes I know it is shocking you actually encounter more than 5/10/15 players in a Massively Multiplayer game), which you actually had to travel to and in the case of PvP games / servers had to fight off opposing players whilst trying to complete the dungeon. (Yes this was when PvE was actually a challenge)
Most MMORPGs today are nothing of the sort, they are merely glorified co-ops which edge ever closer to the likes of Diablo where farming loot with little challenge is all that matters, hence situations such as the OP describes are more and more common.
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Had some bad information. Our EU guys don’t seem to have issues though, so I don’t think it is a problem. Oceanics and SEA players have to use NA servers as well so…
And plenty of EU guys do have trouble, (and plenty of US guys when they try to play in the EU – watch Phantaram stream and compare how often he complains about lag (and he is not the complainng sort) compared to the EU players in his team, to the point occasionally he has to quit playing), as for the Aussies & co they have no choice, they simply suffer sub-par performance.
In a thread similar to this a dev already commented that they are seperated for technical / performance reasons. The game has to cater to all its customers, someone who has fibre optic 40/100mb may well be able to play accross continents, someone on copper who lives 5 miles from the exchange won’t. Same goes for catering to people who live in different countries, the further east you go in Europe the bigger performance hit you take connecting to North America.
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Remember all servers are in Texas, to my knowledge, so they could do this without real latency concerns.
They aren’t, the EU servers are in Frankfurt, Germany, so yes there would be latency / packet loss concerns.
So no, merging them is not a viable solution.
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I’ve seen this before, sadly. When you can’t attack the argument, attack the person presenting the argument. That’s not a good sign for your cause, you realize, no?
Coming from the person who made a crack about spelling that is pretty funny, one word hypocrisy…
You’re trying too hard. Slow down and relax. You’ll make less spelling errors that way.
I’m fine thanks, quite why you think the odd typing error would indicate otherwise is a mystery, but then it is clear logic is not your strong point.
In competitive PvE types of games, everyone races to be the first. If you’re not, you’re s.o.l. and get nothing. With me so far? Good.
No, most of the time there is no racing to be first, it only happens on certain things like some daily quests, but even then the easy option is jsut to party up.
In GW2, people race to get in events. The more people that get there, the more mobs show up, the tougher they get, etc. Plus many events have timed scenarios, so this “instagibbed” scenario you present isn’t possible. It’s different completely, because everyone is racing to be a part of something, not the exclusive person to get credit for a single mob.
Rubbish, it is exactly the same, have you even done the Orr camp events? If the event is busy the mobs do not scale enough and are simply instagibbed (veterans excepted), the fact they have a timer is utterly irrelevant to what I posted, try re-reading it until you comprehend it.
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The only things you got right are poor design of Personal Story/Trahearne.
He got plenty right, most of the event bosses are mindless zergs, WvW is poorly designed in that favours one tactic – zerging, too much – the small maps favour zerging, the objectives close together favour zerging, the speed at which a zerg can take most objectives favours zerging, teh AOE limit favours zerging, the rez mechanic favours zerging, etc.
You mean exactly how people rush to the mobs in events (notably the Orr ones) in order to get the credit…
No. That’s different… people trying to get in on an event are helping each other complete the event together. In lesser MMOs, you run to tag the mob so you and only you get credit for it.
No it’s the same, people are at the Orr camp events to farm them, hence they all rush from spawn point to spawn point spamming their attacks at the point the mobs become vulnerable, because they know the mobs are going to be instagibbed and if they don’t get in their 100b before most of the other people there, then the mobs will be dead and they won’t be getting any loot bags.
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You mean exactly how people rush to the mobs in events (notably the Orr ones) in order to get the credit…
I just made it to Sunless this afternoon, he was already half way down when I started in on him.
I got full credit, gold event status and for the first time in 4 days, a rare from a dragon chest.
I don’t see anyone “rushing” to get credit on events, champs etc. and if they are, they are wasting their time.
What’s the rush? 15 min fight in Orr with a champ and the thing didn’t even drop a porous bone! Nothing, zero, zilch.
I wasn’t refering to getting credit in terms of a medal (my fault I shoudl of been clearer), which I agree is fine, I am talking about the events people farm for loot bags like the camp events, people rush to the mobs because the mobs (other than veterans) die instantly if there are lot players there, it is every man for himself as much as any other MMO.
@Sylosi.6503: Everyone still has a great chance at getting credit. It’s not a first hit tag like every other MMO.
When there are so many people and the mobs are basically instgibbed, then yes pretty much it is first (or first two or three) that get the credit (in terms of loot bags dropping) which is why you see an overwhelming number of certain classes farming those events (warrior for instance) who are more suited to outputtign very high amounts of damage very quickly and repeatedly when compared to some other classes.
I can’t even fathom being in a static quest based world again where people fight to be the first to “tag” a mob to get credit for it…
You mean exactly how people rush to the mobs in events (notably the Orr ones) in order to get the credit…
The biggest thing that stands out to me, aside from the best MMO combat out there, is the removal of the “screw your neighbor” from PvE.
“Screw your neighbour” rather depends on the game, some games were very good in this regard LOTRO for instance (before it was f2p), most people behved well and if you were fighting a mob by a node, would wait for you to finish to see if you actually going to farm the node ro not, rather then jumping in and farming the node whilst you were in combat, of course other games were not so good in this respect.
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anyone else experiencing this as well? Anyone else try Visiting/ revisting other MMO’s and just couldn’t stand it?
To be honest, no, it in fact had the opposite effect in that I started missing some of the things from other MMOs, such as more distinct classes, more variety in play style, etc.
Further to that some of the things that seemed new upon initially playing GW2 lost their lustre, take questing as you mentioned it, intially it did seem to be different, however by the time I was levelling my second character the hearts / DE had become as repetitive as traditional quests, which I guess shouldn;’t of come as a surprise as that is all they are quests without a quest log.
Nor for that matter are DE anything new, they were in Warhammer and Rift.
WvW was fun for a while, but it became apparent the design was flawed (too small map, objectives too close to each other, etc), which makes it into zergwars (with a bit of coverage wars thrown in) and meant the fun turned to boredom, especially with exploits being unaddressed, failure to deal with culling issues, etc.
The PvE in terms of exploring the world was nice, as was the world itself, the PvE group content on the other hand is dire, and even though I’m not the biggest PvE fan in any game, it actually made me miss doing raids, miss playing complex classes which actaully required awareness and multitasking.
GW2 has nice graphics, some nice touches like the crafting interface, the combat is fluid (but shallow, nor is it anything new, more action styled combat already exists in other MMOs), it is good they implementated equal gear in sPvP (not good they released it in an Alpha state lacking many, many features), but overall it is just same old, same old, not much new, the game I’m currently playing EVE is a far bigger step away from most MMOs than GW2 turned out to be.
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In my opinion, SPvP is for people who 1.) Just want to relax and kill some time, 2.) Practice new professions/builds, 3.)Dueling/testing with teammates/guildies, 4.)Farm honor, or 5.) Aren’t good/confident enough for TPvP yet.
1 – If sPvP was a raging success, I’d agree, but it isn’t, the population has declined faster than the equivilent PvP populations in other MMORPGs (and the WvW and PvE pops in GW2), there is a reason for that, one of which is the introduction to PvP (Hotjoin) is terrible.
2 & 3 – You are far better off practicing new builds on an empty server, against someone you know is competent (or at the same level), rather than the randomness of an actual hotjoin match, both in terms of skill of who you will be up against and numbers, you don’t learn anything relevant about your new bunker build if you are facing the zerg.
4 – Fair enough, though quite why anyone would want to farm honour is a mystery.
5 – If someone is new to PvP, then hotjoin is absolutely the worst introduction and likely to do little for new players confidence.
I don’t see the problem, just play tpvp and everything is ok…
The problem is it is detrimental to the game, in that the “casual” 8v8 hotjoin sPvP in GW2 is probably the worst “casual” PvP I have ever encountered in an MMORPG, judging by how many hotjoin servers are in use now compared to say the end of October and by how few people stick around to move on to tPvP I’d suggest I’m not alone.
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Newsflash – Stealth combined with huge burst is a failed design in every unimaginative MMO that uses it.
Newsflash 2 – Low TTK = low skill cap in an MMO and wrongly puts the skill onus on the target rather than person playing the faceroll wannabe FPS class (just with less twitch, less aiming, thus less skill)
It is pretty simple, if you wish to pretend to yourself that the 5 man ez-mode PvE in this game is anything but casual and that every serious PvEer has not already left to go back to games with raids / more challeging PvE, then run with a guild group, not a pug.
If you are that serious about it, why are you even running with a pug in the first place, it will never be optimal, but then why aren’t you playing a game with more challenging PvE / complex classes, etc.
They promoted it that way in many videos / interviews / blog posts, they specifically stated it would not have a treadmill, that the progression would be optional, that people who did not choose to do that progression would not be “less powerful”, etc., the “non-mmo” MMO was their phrase not mine, they also spent years repeating “when it’s ready”, then released a half finsihed product that clearly was anything but ready, hence why many people don’t give Anet’s word much credence.
Sounds like we read and heard different things then. Also sounds like we’re playing different versions of the same game because I can assure you that I received a product that wasn’t “half finished”.
I watched / read things like this:
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”
That was in a blog from their lead dev, this statement was true at release, when they introduced ascended gear it became a lie, if someone wants their character to be “just as powerful” they now have to hop on the treadmill and get ascended gear.
They also promoted the game on “play it how you want”, so the introduction of ascended gear broke that philosophy too when they rushed it in and it was only available if “play how you want” happened to coincide with playing dungeons. Which in turn broke yet another pre-release claim, their much repeated “when it’s ready”, instead of which they rushed it in.
In regard to half finished, you must have got the special copy of the game, mine had more bugs than any other MMO I’ve played at launch, hundreds of DE bugged, pages and pages and pages of class traits / skill bugs, a total lack of e-sport features on a game they promoted as an e-sport, etc.
But anyway the point isn’t you didn’t see / read these things, it is many of us did, hence don’t have much faith in Anet’s word.
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How many times has Anet told you people that you will not get another tier of gear aside the ascended gear? Do they have to continue til they are blue in the face to get it through that thick head of yours that The ascendant gear is the only tier you will get?
Anet spent years promoting the game on horizontal progression, that progression would be cosmetic only and that a player would not be “less powerful” if they chose not to follow that progression, that the game would have no treadmill and was the “non -mmo” MMO, that the game would only be released when it was ready (LOL) etc, so they’ve already broken their pre-game philosophy, so Anet’s word they won; tbreak it further does not mean much, which part of that are you having difficulty getting through your own thick head?
They maybe promoted it to YOU that way, but I can assure you 100% they did not promote it to ME that way. From day one they promoted a game to me that would be a MMO and be played like one with no subscription fee. If I would have though for a second that it’d be like GW1 with that drab progression system(and not an mmo) I would have never came near it. I knew from the first time I read the announcement in pcgamer that it’d have stat progression and higher levels.
They promoted it that way in many videos / interviews / blog posts, they specifically stated it would not have a treadmill, that the progression would be optional, that people who did not choose to do that progression would not be “less powerful”, etc., the “non-mmo” MMO was their phrase not mine, they also spent years repeating “when it’s ready”, then released a half finsihed product that clearly was anything but ready, hence why many people don’t give Anet’s word much credence.
How many times has Anet told you people that you will not get another tier of gear aside the ascended gear? Do they have to continue til they are blue in the face to get it through that thick head of yours that The ascendant gear is the only tier you will get?
Anet spent years promoting the game on horizontal progression, that progression would be cosmetic only and that a player would not be “less powerful” if they chose not to follow that progression, that the game would have no treadmill and was the “non -mmo” MMO, that the game would only be released when it was ready (LOL) etc, so they’ve already broken their pre-game philosophy, so Anet’s word they won’t break it further does not mean much (especially when you consider they can simply add ever increasingly powerful infusions), which part of that are you having difficulty getting through your own thick head?
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Once again a new repeat thread that covers the same old topic because you feel your opinion on it si so special…
The only person who thinks their opinion is so special when one of these threads comes up is yourself, as you’ve shown time and time again, I see you are now under the delusion that you are also a moderator…
But anyway back to the OP, yes they do need to do something, as engi fails miserably in being versatile, so making more traits kit-wide would be a start, though I think putting the elixirs in a kit would be OP.
Frankly I think the problem (outside traits, which is a pretty poor trait system full stop, not just in regard to engies) is that three utlity slots is not enough to provide versatility when you have forgone a weapon swap and have lower base damage and need to compensate for. (and looks embarrasingly one dimensional when compared to certain Ele builds, and is not any more versatile than some builds on other classes, in some cases falling hugely behind in terms of utility, mesmer for example)
Given that they are unlikely to have a complete makeover so soon after launch, I think the easiest solution would be to give engies an extra utlity slot.
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I am just curious, if that is an intentional thing, to keep people who aren’t really contributing to an event, from getting something, or an oversight?
The poorly thought out reward system extends throughout the entire game, support is simply not rewarded at all (other than rallying adf that is only a minor reward), but it is worse than just that, for anything that dies quickly, be it a player in zerg v zerg in WvW or a mob at an event in Orr, then high burst damage is all that counts, because the target will be dead before your condi damage or moderate direct damage is even noticed).
It is just really poor design, again…