Guild Wars 2

Levetty.1279:

Yeah sorry forgot that 3 maps spread over the whole of one mode is more content then the whole PvE, dungeons and WvWvW combined. k

WvWvW is PvP and way to go on ignoring the replayability point.

Levetty.1279:

Mesmers suffer in exploration, tagging in DEs, efficiently getting through trash in solo and quite frankly variety of our builds.

Mesmers are fine for exploration, for jumping puzzles portal is superb, for mob infested areas – run through stealth – drop agro, no need to fight mobs and is much quicker.

Levetty.1279:

Well done on utterly missing my point.

I didn’t miss your point, I just used different examples to illistrate different classes are strong / weak at different things in the game and that were someone to whine about their class, I’d tell them the same thing – you can’t be good at everything, it is called balance.

Levetty.1279:

Yes classes do somethings better then others but that isn’t a reason to keep Mesmer as the only class that can’t do anything in open world PvE once it has reached 80. We might be better at soloing champions but there are no rewards for soloing champions, everything is tied into this broken DE/tag mechanic, once again its the only way to get enough mats/coins without turning it into an epic grind(please read this sentence I am fed up of repeating it) so either that has to change or Mesmer has to be able to take part.

There is no epic grind, the only level of gear you need is exotic, which is a piece of cake compared to most games, if you want legendaries, tough, you don’t need them, there is no rush.

As for you repeating your sentence, if you didn’t try and tie it in with silly statements like “mesmers are useless in PvE” or were able to grasp that DE is just one small part of the game, then you wouldn’t need to repeat it.

Levetty.1279:

And if they focus their entire balancing on PvP then the game is going to fail hard. A lot of people play this for the PvE and will get fed up of that being messed up by PvP whining and will get fed up of one of the classes obviously not being designed for it and go to another game where the developers actually consider them. Also the Guild Wars PvP community doesn’t exactly have a reputation for being a good community, that is why PvP died in GW1.

There are plenty of MMORPGs (the vast majority in fact) where the devs put PvE first, GW2 is the other way round, get used to it, they want to make the tPvP an esport, balance will be fr mroe crucial there than anywhere else, that will take priority.

As for community, other than LOTRO pre-f2p and older games pre-wowkids, just about every MMORPG has a terrible reputation, so what’s new?

Levetty.1279:

No what is stupid is thinking a game that has way more PvE content then PvP , all the marketing is based on PvE and they didn’t even show off PvP until right before the Betas started is a PvP mmo and they should balance it around tournaments. Just a little thought please.

I think you will find what is stupid is saying there is more PvE content than PvP, when PvP content is always far more replayable, so making a direct comparision is futile.

They were showing off PvP last year…

As for the rest I suggest you read some interviews with the devs and if you think a game with no real raids, that has virtually removed PvE gear progression in order to improve PvP, has launched with far more PvP content than most MMORPGs (the WvW zone alone makes efforts in most recent games look pathetic) and that has the stated intent of making the tPvP into an esport, is somehow a PvE focused game like Rift, LOTRO, etc then I suggest you actually try putting a little thought into it.

Levetty.1279:

Once again GETTING GOLD IN DE IS NOT THE PROBLEM. I would repeat that but since it has been repeated several times in each thread about this then I don’t think it will help. I have got Gold from running through an event doing nothing, if I hacked the game and gave myself a rabbit to play as I could get gold in DEs. The problem that the only way to get materials/coins at the rate you need to to not have to grind the game for 5 years is from tagging mobs in the Orr DEs. In them support doesn’t matter, the all mighty portal that everybody seems to think is the answer to all of Mesmers problems from damage to getting across maps doesn’t matter, noobs inability to fight us in PvP doesn’t matter. All that matters is aoe damage and Mesmers can’t do it fast enough to compete there and they are the only ones who can’t.

Then don’t make silly blanket claims that mesmers are useless at PvE, in general they are fine at PvE, they are fine in dungeons, fine in terms of getting gold in events, fine on boss events, the only thing they are not good at is tagging mobs in DE, but then that is a long way from being “useless in PvE”.

Levetty.1279:

You keep saying this is the Mesmer’s weakness so fair enough, how about we replace all the DEs in Orr with champions that you have to fight solo and have that as the only way to farm, when the other classes complain that they can’t do anything in Orr we can just reply with ‘Yeah but you have good AoE to get rid of all those trash mobs’ lets see if they accept that.

I do say the same, if I’m on my guardian, I have crappy ranged options, I go melee much of the time and have to work much harder than I do on my mesmer on things like dragon boss events that I could virtually put up three iMages and then fall asleep.

Same for my thief, having bascially 900 range (other than cluster bomb) makes things more difficult, especially in WvW, but then that is called balance, because thief is also the class that can get in and out of combat easier than any other.

You will be in for a very long wait if you think they are going to simply redo the mesmer mechanics to give a fast ramp up time and huge amounts of spammable AOE just for tagging in DE at the expense of their number one priority tPvP.

If anything get prepared for some sort of nerf, because mesmers are not exactly UP in PvP.

Sabbathius.1465:

Define “minimal”.

On my engi in sparkway fens (level 55-65) I recieved about 95xp for a killing a mob and 7000xp for the completing the heart (I needed to kill about 6 mobs in total).

Really XP is not an issue, this is not Everquest, it is easy to level, the XP curve is linear (after the initial few levels), you even get XP for crafting.

I hate to break it to you, but in this game DEs (and PvE in general) come a poor second in terms of importance to PvP (and in particular to structed tournament PvP) the class mechanics will be balanced on that, not DEs.

Sabbathius.1465:

At the risk of sounding hostile, according to whom? I have zero interest, NONE, in tPvP. I did a fair share of sPvP though. And my principal interest is in WvWvW, which is about 60% PvE, including heavy DEs.

Well according to numerous interviews the devs/anet want to make tPvP an esport, so you take a guess at which is going to take priority when it comes to balance, structued PvP or the fact somoe classes are better than others at AOEing in DE.

I had zero interest in raids in Rift, however I didn’t whine about it because I knew the game was primarily PvE focused so most of the time balance or class mechanic considerations would obviously put PvE first PvP second, hence the excitment I and many others have for GW2 a more PvP focused game.

Sabbathius.1465:

You are arguing player preference. I’m arguing game mechanics. One is debatable, the
other is pretty cut and dry unbalanced.

Not really, your preference is that all classes should be able to AOE the same, that somehow that equates to balance, I disagree and think you are in for a long wait.

This assumes Mesmer is balanced right now. Take a good look at sPvP board and you’ll see tons of complaints about 2 classes primarily – Thieves and Mesmers.

It assumes that they are unlikely to chage the basic mechanics/premise of a class in anything but the very long term, so Mesmers will have a ramp up time and relatively bad AOE for the foreseeble futrue regardless of balance changes.

If you want a class that is good at AOE and has a low ramp up time, you picked the wrong class, all I can agree with is that they should look at improving how dynamic events work, but not merely because in loot terms many currently favour AOE spwamming, more because AOE spamming is kinda of lame and uninteresting.

Levetty.1279:

That is stupid. A lot of people play this game for PvE and a lot of people have played this series for PvE from the beginning.

It is not fair that they make a class so useless in PvE just to balance PvP (and if the PvP population turns into what it did in GW1 then eventually it will die and it will be PvE carrying the game). If they really want to do that then they need to put a big warning up on the Mesmer creator warning us that it is a PvP class.

Or they can go back to PvE/PvP skill splits but considering they seem to want to avoid that I am hoping they are smart enough to fix up Mesmer’s PvE shortcomings when they get round to finishing the class.

The class isn’t useless in PvE it is fine in dungeons and getting gold on events is also easy, it just kills things slower than most and isn’t very good at AOE.

The Mesmers “shortcomings” are by design, it is called balance, no class is good at everything, Mesmers weakness is AOE/ramp up time, if you want huge AOE you picked the wrong class.

What is stupid, is failing to research a game before you buy it, it should be abundantly clear GW2 is more PvP focused than your typical MMORPG, they even want to eventually make the tPvP an esport, as such class design / balance will always make that a priority. But even aside from that in most games there are classes that are weak at AOE, because they are stong in some other way, again it is called balance.

Sabbathius.1465:

Now, in GW2, your DPS and its AoE potential are directly linked to your XP and loot. Simply put, in DEs, if you don’t have strong spammable AoE, you will get considerably less XP and loot from the same event, with the same amount of work, compared to a class with strong spammable AoE.

The amount of XP you get from mobs is minimal compared to what you get for completing hearts/getting gold in events etc.

Sabbathius.1465:

This is not right. It is not a question of “not good at everything”. DEs in this game are as important an element as anything else really. They’re what rifts were in Rift. Heck, they practically are rifts, just done differently. A class being weak in this department makes the class TOO weak.

I hate to break it to you, but in this game DEs (and PvE in general) come a poor second in terms of importance to PvP (and in particular to structed tournament PvP) the class mechanics will be balanced on that, not DEs.

Sabbathius.1465:

Guess what I’m trying to say is, unless the way mobs are tapped is changed, I cannot accept this as “fine”. If, for example, I gave someone else Might or Protection, and they tapped a mob, and I would get credit/loot for the kill, then perhaps Mesmer might be fine. But right now? Not even close. You get CONSIDERABLY less loot/XP from DEs on a Mesmer. And this both slows down the leveling, the gold you make, the quality of your gear, your crafting progression (from salvage of unusable drops), etc., etc., etc.

Whilst I agree that it might be nice if they did something about DEs (even making them less zergy or spliting up groups of mobs and making them enter from all sorts of places so it favours AOE less), GW2 is no different from any other game in this regard, classes that kill fast / AOE lots always level / farm faster than anyone else.

People are in for a long wait if they think they are going to upset tPvP balance by giving mesmers more AOE just for tagging stuff in DEs, a reason a lot of peopel are playing this game is Anet’s focus on putting PvP balance first, rather than the poor secodn it is in most MMORPGs to PvE.

It is called bad game design, in games where you have lots of skills and are meant to use them, low TTK is considered low skill-cap, no skill should take out such a chunk of HP that size in an MMORPG (and to be fair it is not the only skill or only class), for a game that promotes itself as a high skill cap MMORPG it is frankly hilariously bad design.

Just to make it clear I’m fine with how Mesmer AOE is, because I don’t expect every class to be equally good at everything.

However the people who are claiming it is comaparble to every other class (especially at taggin in DE) are simply living in cloud cuckoo land or have never played an engineer, ele, warrior, etc, and are totally ignoring the issue of targetting mobs that are often insta dead when other classes sit there spamming AOE skills at the spawn points in DE.

It is pretty simple they are priortizing, there are certain classes that are bordering on completely broken (Necro) and others that have more bugs and/or are simply in a worse place.

As for the gap closer issues, they are occuring on similar skills on lots of classes, so in all likelyhood it is a big fix that may require big changes.

Daoc had 24 hour 3 way matches and many people still think it was one of the best games for WvW and back then people would say you guys only got a relic becuase you had a raid at 5am. The response would be “Well yea that is why we scheduled a raid at 5am.” People did not say they need to change the rules of the game where you can not take a relic at 5am.

…Take some responsibilty, put on your big boy pants….

Responsibilty is putting your career, school/uni, family, etc before getting up at 4 am for a meaningless computer game.

It really is pretty simply if Anet want this aspect of their game to succeed (and in all likelihood their game to suceed given WvWvW was meant to be one the things keeping people playing long term), then they need to find a solution, night capping is reducing participation in WvW and it is a trend that is only going to get worse.

Eliteseraph.4970:

Oh, I have no problems in open field WvW. But open field doesn’t earn points for your server outside of camps. I’m specifically having problems with sieges. Gate assaults and defense and the like.

1v1 or even 1v2, I can take almost anyone. Picking people out of a zerg isn’t the issue. It’s doing the things that actually mean something long-term for your server where I feel thief is very weak.

900 range is almost crippling in any kind of siege situation. Choking Gas and Cluster bomb are mediocre, but mostly due to being condition based and again, only 900 range.

Every other class has a 1200 or better range option, why not thieves? And if you have a siege specific build you’re using, please share it with me, because I’ve spent hours trying to figure something out.

And is every other class as good at 1v1 (or even 1v2)? can every other class move around the map as fast? Can every class get in out of combat as easily? Does every other class have the same level of escapability? Can every other class do the same level of damage?

The answer to all of those is ‘no’, classes are not balanced on one thing (e.g – range) in total isolation, if you want more range play another class, you can’t have everything on one class.

I’m looking for an alt to my mesmer, but after seeing how much more loot my engineer friend gets from DE (especially ones with lots of players) I don’t want another class that is weak at tagging, so is the Necro any good? (specifically at the busier events like the Orr ones)

Or is the inital damage on the AOEs too low (even if power specced) and everything dead before the dots do enough ticks to tag?

CharliePrince.2071:

do you think ArenaNET cares at all about wuvwuv or is this the price we pay for this being a b2p game instead of a subscription game..

Given every single subscription game I have ever played has had bugs, imbalances, problems, etc at this stage of their life (and when they introduce new content / mechanics and in fact long term when it comes to PvP) I don’t see how the payment model is an issue.

AXEL.8362:

Night capping is not an issue. If you want smaller games play spvp. Do you think in a war people say, “oh its night, deactivate the security system, the enemy wont attack because its sleeping time”.

In a war if you die, you don’t magically come back to life, in a war if someone attacks your base whilst you sleep you wake up and so on, you know why these things don’t happen in GW2, because it is a computer game, so making comparisions to actual war is just…

AXEL.8362:

Rotate people so they take turns guarding at night, try getting players with different time zones or just dont sleep.

Which works in games that force global servers like EVE, doesn’t work in games that are regionlized, the vast majority of people want to play in their own region, there are simply not the numbers there to recruit for night play to get anywhere close to the zillions of French Canadians that chose to play on the French language servers in Europe.

AXEL.8362:

Because if a player plays ay night he is not playing during day. Use the day to your advantage if you see you are against a night server.

The slight flaw being there are population caps, so even if server A has more people on then server B in the day time, it can not take advantage of that much of the time. Secondly even when not at cap there is not the same level of advatage 400vs300, sure an advantage, 300 vs 50 = faceroll, which is not helped by the design of WvW which enables maps to be taken very quickly.

Italso has consequences during the day, even if a non-nightcapping server manages to take back some terrority during the day, there is big disincentive to spend gold on fortifications that you know will be wiped out in the night.

Given that this is supposedly one of the things that is going to keep people playing long term (cos the PvE isn’t), then they need to find a solution if they want their game to succeed.

lollie.5816:

Oceanics play on NA servers because they’re our only option (closest to us) and get 200ms to 300ms. You’re complaining about 105ms? Want us booted from the server as well?

Which is my point, the vast majority of people won’t play in a different region if they have the choice or don’t have some overwhelming consideraton such as the langauge they speak. Hence the idea that people can simply recruit a nightcrew to even up the numbers is frankly just dumb.

As for booted from the server, erm, learn to read, I didn’t say any such thing.

Finally in regard to the 105 ms, that wasn’t actually a big problem, the thing that made a difference (to the point I stopped playing) was a vast increase in spikes and the packet loss, but anyway Aussies and anyone else who have to play on some server half way round the world have my sympathy.

lollie.5816:

The game was sold to you as 24/7 open world pvp. You can’t ask for your money back, as you have no basis for this (they told you what the game was, no surprises).

You should be ashamed for this.

The game was sold as balanced, competitve, well thought out PvP, guess what apparently it occured to no one that zillions of French Canadians would choose the French language servers in Europe, becuase no one had the foresight to add one in NA.

So when the vast majority of players are asleep in the EU, certain French servers have a huge numbers advantage and there is very little the few insomniacs on opposing worlds can do.

As for the various inane suggestions from some people that servers simply recruit a "night crew", there are simply not the numbers there playing at that time to recruit, it is not EVE with a single global server, given the choice the vast majority of people prefer (quite sensibly given lag*) to play in their own region.

How about people stop making excuses for a poorly thought out system, still in the end the problem wil be Anet’s, WvW is not going to keep people playing long term if their hard fought gains are going to be lost every night.

* And for people that think there is no difference in performance as to where servers are located, when LOTRO moved the EU servers to NA, my ping went from about 55 to 105, it spiked far more regularly and I was introduced to the joys of packet loss.

Aside some of the music bugs, how was the music bad?….

Well I only listened to half of the first song before I hit mute, and yes it was bad… If you think that death metal(? if that is what they still call it) with the comedy singing that sounds like a bad voice actor doing Skeletor, is going to stand the test of time you are simply mistaken, most people grow out of of that sort of thing (a bit like s-club 7)

But anyway if people like metal/rock and want to avoid comments about their taste in music on a video they choose to advertise, they should stick less extreme stuff on it Nirvana, Rolling Stones, etc.

Colton.9460:

I see a lot of threads that go as follows…

You must be reading a differnet forum, because on the one I’m reading I see the vast majority of complaints of OPness are directed at classes like thief, mesmer, guardian, whilst other classes such as necro are generally regarded as weak.

Arena is too simplistic, lacks depth and is dull. (and the TTK in GW2 is too low)

hey. let’s compare moa morph (10 seconds is fu***** OP. this skill never miss target.) and time warp(two times faster for 10 seconds? is it some kind of super intelligent alien technology? obviously impossible to win it.) to other elite skills. moa morph and time warp are just op. you can kill anyone if you use this elite skill.

Moa Morph could do with maybe a shorter duration or maybe allow peoples utils to be used when morphed.

Timewrap is a l2p issue, go outside the field, the quickness buff is not 10 seconds long it is 1 second and is reapplied every second for 10 seconds, so if they leave the field they lose quickness.

become a plague and i do condition damage. but i never seen a person who uses plague for 2 weeks in tournament…

Then start watching some decent necros (watch Exforce for instance), they don’t bother with the condition damage so much, what they do is continually apply blindess to give thier teamates a nice advanatage.

If it bothers you that much, re-roll, even though Mes gets better, you will never be able to kill at the same speed as a warrior, thief, etc, and your AOE will always seem relatively weak compared to most classes.

Daays.4317:

I can 10k evis on my warrior against squishy cloth classes as well.
A rifle+belt burst engineer can combo for 10k. Although it’s multiple abilities, they hit all at the same time. All while you’re knocked down.

Stealth is only good vs classes that need a target in order to do damage. It doesn’t stop the damage. It doesn’t stop the AoE. Stealthing vs a warrior, the warrior will still auto attack chain. I kill thieves all day in stealth. I kite them in stealth. Predicting their movements is pretty easy, and it’s not hard to circle strafe for 3 seconds and keep yourself facing them.

Exiting the fight on the thief means nothing. Think about it, he comes in, you dodge his burst, he stealths out. The class is brought as damage and he’s…not doing damage. So one team is down a high DPS class, while the other team isn’t. Can guarantee your team will win if their thief is only coming in when Steal is off cooldown.

If you don’t want to create a build to deal with stealth, high burst, conditions, stuns, etc. then that’s fine. Make one. But complaining about them, when you have the counters available to you makes you a child.

As I said earlier, the Engineer class has plenty of ways to counter a glass cannon backstab thief. But he doesn’t want to use them. He wants to play a glass cannon engineer. Which is fine, but he better learn to dodge other glass cannon attacks.

Or change his build.

Eviscerate is not out of stealth, nor can it be hit so often. I remember Anet going on about how thieves would be different in GW2, how they would not have the same bad mechnaics that make them an issue in so many MMOs, yet all they have done is remove permastealth, you still have the same old failure that is stealth>huge burst>escape on your terms that plagues other MMOs.

As for exiting means nothing, rubbish, what happens is this, thief goes in opponent dodges/burns stun breaker/burns shield etc, thief disappears, comes back moments later opponents stunbreaker, etc all still on cooldown = opponent in big trouble despite having built to include stunbreaker.

Same goes for team fights, it is all very well saying have a stun breaker or teleport (whatever to deal with CC) or to dodge, but they all get used up in team fights and yes in this case it does apply to a couple of other classes who can also do silly damage with certain skills, because it makes the TTK too low which is simply cheese and equals a low skill cap (in an MMORPG).

Which then makes me wonder about CC, I assume the point of the relatviely low duration CC in GW2 is to avoid the situation of people feeling there is nothing they can do for seconds at a time(if their CC breaker(s) is on cooldown), but then if a class can do so much damage in 2 sec (haste is also a dumb cheese skill) then it sort of defeats the purpose and how the dumb Moa Morph fits in to that, I don’ tknow…

On the last point of others going glass cannon, yes they better learn to dodge, but the difference is I can leave combat pretty much when I want on my thief, which I can’t on my engineer, which results in there being far less of a penalty for going glass cannon on thief tthan on most other classes.

2) The maps – I find myself as well as my friends enjoying Forest of Niflhel the most. I wasn’t sure why at first but then it I realized it is the one that has the least impactful secondary objective for the most part (Svanir, Chieftain).

I think sPvP as a whole would greatly benefit from having all secondary objectives removed – guild lords, NPCs, trebuchets, etc. The player vs player combat is what is the most fun and should be emphasized as much as possible leading to…

No thanks, it adds some depth, it rewards good teams who cosntantly communicate, where as herpkitten, kill! kill! kill! is too one dimensional, it is fun trying to steal a boss kill.

Rika.7249:

There’s a lot more skill to the thief than you think.

Initiative is a disadvantage. Not the opposite. If a thief had cooldowns, it would suddenly be brain-dead easy. But it doesn’t. It does not have several cooldowns, but ONE cooldown. One cooldown across the whole board. Use X, lose Y. Use Y, lose X.

What other classes have this? None.

Thief is one of the easier classes, the disadvantage of initiatve is it is finite, however it also allows burst in a way other classes can’t get, zero cooldowns (other than utils/eilte/heal) is easier to manage than cooldowns and the finite nature of initiative is mitigated to a large extent by being having the best escapbility in the game and the ability to reset fights.

Franky I think Anet have failed with their aims in regard to thiefs, I seem to remember they claimed they were going to avoid the mistakes of other MMOs, but all they have avoided is permastealth, it is still the same old stealth->huge burst->escape at will, that plagues other games

UptheIronz.6732:

wrong just to clarify how thief vanish again into stealth , it’s a skill called clock and dagger needs cast time and needs to stay at the same place cause u cant cast it while running and third and most important at all if u move i miss it cause it has a low range , so yeah if u wanna nerf stealth fine by me , u have to compensate somewhere else , cause hard hitting thieves has 13k hp

now about mesmer they need a nerf to their huge hp pool which is by default 24.5k
that’s 11.5k more than thief almost double the hp , and decoy can be casted instantly

and mesmer doesn’t have to stand still , so now tell me which class needs a nerf ?

thief or mesmer ?

i play both

If you play thief then why are you conviently leaving out all the utils that let a thief stealth like blinding powder, shadow trap, shadow refgue, etc, plus the heal that also stealths.

And no the mesmers base HP is not 11.5k more than a thief it is about 5k more.

Ferrohu.3102:

This post is not about class balance, just about the spvp matchmaking system:

-Joining the game: Even the very first step is confusing. There is no way to see wich game will begin, u can see hunderds of games half of them with 4-6 ppl in it.
Why cant they do it like other MMo, you queue up and when we have 16 ppl the game will start.

-Player leaving left and right the game, no penalty, nothing.

-Autobalancing team: This is the stupidest thing ever! You are winnig the game, playing as best as u can, and near the end (because the losing team players leave the game) this incredible system put you in the losing team just before the game ends. Brilliant.

-Downed state in pvp just plain stupid (not to mentiont the “very clever tactic”, when ppl dont kill you, just let you bleed and it takes forever to die).

(Yes i know in tournamnet u dont have to deal with the first 3 points.)

And lastly the lag. This is the lagiest MMO ever, i have know idea what Anet are doing, but playing with 200-300 ping when i can play Swtor, Tera, and Wow under 100 is just stupid.

I rarely get lag in GW2, as for the rest, I rather like the downstate it adds an extra tactical element ot the game, I agree their should be a penalty to discourage people leaving, but I’ve played games with penalties (Rift for instance) and people still leave.

In regard to autobalancing, really who cares it is for cosmetic gear, you lose minimal points from it (if you like PvP the points will come naturally, if you don’t like PvP and are simply playing for cosmetic gear, seek medical advice). Saying that I wouldn; tbe opposed to them limiting auto-balance in some way, such as just for the first 2/3 of a match.

BishopX.6453:

the above person saying the ranger types are ALWAYS popular in mmos?

if a class is not good people will not play it. people ONLY play the most powerful class.

Clearly a case of learn to speak for yourself not others…

For someone who finds dungeons boring as hell after the first couple of runs this game has lots of end game, WvWvW is fun and it is a pleasure to play structured PvP where there is a level playing field.

Dagins.5163:

Full glass cannon thief probably has the lowest defense in this game. They will try to take you by surprise, but if they fail, you should CC and eat them with ease. They will slaughter anybody who is confused and not expecting what is comming.
High risk – high reward.

Thief is the fifth class I have played (for a reasonable length of time) and I don’t buy this lowest defense line, sure medium armour and lowest tier of HP and lots of melee, at the same time huge mobility, stealth, lots of ways to avoid damage – multipe blinds, evade on death blossom, teleports etc and then when you add the damage output onto the equation… my thief is nowhere near as squishy as some make out and in 1v1 situation it is simply hugely survivable.

Furthermore with the high damage, you can afford to build in some surviability and still be able to put out damage that the likes of necros can only dream of.

Doing what someone described above of going into a group is high risk, waiting for individuals making their way back is all reward, very little risk with a class that can escape from combat so easily.

Yahrim.9485:

Sylosi.6503:

So if thieves range should be brought into line, I take it you have no objection with every other classes mobilty, lack of stealth, burst damage, being “brought into line” witht that of a thief? Oh look we’ve just ended up with 8 classes exactly the same.

That’s number one where you mention all classes becoming the same.

Sylosi.6503:

I entriely agree, the point was “bringing into line” is utterly illogical as classes have differnt strengths/weakness/skills, etc and that classes are balanced as a whole, not on one specific aspect, if you bring everything into line, you have 8 identical classes.

That’s twice. By that logic GW2 would have 7 identical classes currently…

I can only suggest learning to read, I never stated giving 1200 range would make all classes the same (hence he was lying or has the same lack of basic comprehension as yourself).

I stated the “logic” that a specific aspect such as range should be “brought into line” is dumb and not how they balance, because if you follow that logic on every aspect (range, damage, armour, hp, etc), then you would indeed end up with all classes the same.

The fact you can not differentiate that a point on the illogical justification of “bringing into line” a specific aspect in isolation in regard to balancing, is an entirely different thing from saying “making some thief skills 1200 makes all classes the same”, is worrying and frankly says more about your reading skills than anything else.

Hence making out I said something which I did not, is the only thing near troll behaviour, the OP needs to learn disagreeing with someone is not trolling.

Depends what you mean by complain, I play around 4 classes regularly, including mesmer, I don’t think someone needs to play mesmer to have a valid opinion on say whether being able to teleport the repair kit to the treb is acceptable or not.

I’d also say it can also go the other way, some people are simply children and will defend their favourite class no matter what, playing a class does not magically produce an objective, balanced and fair opinion.

Sonho.3697:

And when it comes to dmg, Mesmer got the highest at this point without a doubt.

Erm, no, if you look above there is someone saying Mesmers can do 9-12k in 10 secs, my thief backstabs for 9k+ in one attack, warrior same thing with 100b, etc, Mesmers are not really high damage, they have sustained damage and are very good in other ways, but highest damage in the game, not even close.

kuviCk.6107:

I have an answer: Run 2 Guardians 3 thiefs. Send 1 guardian to close point and let him afk there. Others go hard point which is usually mid. If you take mid leave another guardian there and then 3 thifs roam where ever help is needed and target 1 person for insta kills.

So the answer is to bascially use the other two OP classes to combat the OP mesmers…

Arcane.4950:

Elementalist 10k base
Necro 18k base

Err, you what?!

Because classes aren’t balanced on one aspect alone.

Edit: my definition of hardcore vs casual
I guess you could define hardcore as gamers that want to compete with eachother and casual as gamers that play just to amuze themselves.

Sure doesn’t match most of your post, competitve PvP requires a level playing field, facerolling undergeared/stated people isn’t competitive in the slightest, by removing gear progression in structured PvP (and taking it to a minimum in WvW) you get far more competitve PvP than most MMOs which have heaps of gear progression that does nothing, but make for terrible, lame PvP.

If you want a game that uttely lacks balance and favours not having a job and playing 14 hours a day, then I suggest something like Runes Of Magic.

QSatu.1586:

It’s been 1 month since release. If ANet wants to keep saying how they can compete with p2p mmos it’s time to start talking about 1st content patch. I doubt anyone will take them seriously if they will wait 3 months for 1st patch.

I’d prefer them to concentrate on fixing existing issues with content like DE bugging out, as for p2p, since when are they the benchmark for quality, every one I have played has bugs that don’t get fixed for years, the last one I played was Rift, they rush out content patches, which are always bugged/incomplete (HK & ID, both a shambles on release), there are bugs that have not been fixed after 18 months (e.g – being able to hide in the wall in the Library warfront).

I bet they were laughing at you too, with your 500dmg hits at best! Did you actually kill anyone with those specs? Or you were just standing there testing on how many hits you will be killed? “Yes! It took 8 hits to kill me now, instead of 2! I am ninja” LOL

Perhaps he had something like this in mind – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MOy7ocxa40&feature=plcp

Clicky

perhaps this is for you buddy

Well given thief is probably my second most played class and I haven’t suggested thieves range should be nerfed, no not really.

Sylosi was a borderline troll who was suggesting that a 1200 would make all classes the same, That is why i felt that the link might help him out a little bit.

The only troll here is you (lying about what I said, classy), I never said that, I stated that “bringing into line” based on one aspect is idiotic, that if we followed that logic on all aspects, then all classes would be the same and that is not how they balance classes.

What you actually mean is, I disgaree with your suggestion on the grounds of balance and you don’t like it, perhaps you should avoid forums if you can’t cope with people disagreeing with you.

It seems you find this topic very personal Sylosi,

?

Stealth and steal are somewhat the thief’s things

I entriely agree, the point was “bringing into line” is utterly illogical as classes have differnt strengths/weakness/skills, etc and that classes are balanced as a whole, not on one specific aspect, if you bring everything into line, you have 8 identical classes.

Although mobility of the thief is very good, there are other classes with a lot of mobility…

None with that a of a thief.

7 classes have 1200 autos, 1 doesnt, this is my point, WvW and some events are built around ranged damage….

And? A thief can do ranged damage in events, sometimes that involves more dodging / movement than a class with longer range, but then thieves have other advatages to balance that, whcih is the point.

As for WWW, again and? Some classes can move very fast accross the map, others can’t, some are good at AOE, others aren’t, some can get more than 1200 range, others can’t and so on.

Dronin.3957:

Sylosi.6503:

Gamblit.5041:

Sylosi.6503:

Gamblit.5041:

If Rangers shortbow can shoot from 1200 and Warriors can increase the range of their Longbows to 1200 as well, why can’t Thief Pistols do the same?

Perhaps, because there are numerous other areas in which theives are superior to rangers and there is a thing called balance.

How will the balance change if we increas the range for Pistol skills from 900 to 1200?

Isn’t it self explantory why a 300 buff to range with no corresponding nerf elsewhere alters the balance?

But anyway, the fact some other class has 1200 range is irrlevant, classes are not balanced on one aspect, classes do different levels of damage, have different levels of mobility, etc, classes are balanced as a whole.

Altering the balance to bring something into line with everything else is not a bad thing.

So if thieves range should be brought into line, I take it you have no objection with every other classes mobilty, lack of stealth, burst damage, being “brought into line” witht that of a thief? Oh look we’ve just ended up with 8 classes exactly the same.

Thieves range is in line, given it is the most mobile class that can get in and out of range easier than other class, the level of burst, etc.

Gamblit.5041:

Sylosi.6503:

Gamblit.5041:

If Rangers shortbow can shoot from 1200 and Warriors can increase the range of their Longbows to 1200 as well, why can’t Thief Pistols do the same?

Perhaps, because there are numerous other areas in which theives are superior to rangers and there is a thing called balance.

How will the balance change if we increas the range for Pistol skills from 900 to 1200?

Isn’t it self explantory why a 300 buff to range with no corresponding nerf elsewhere alters the balance?

But anyway, the fact some other class has 1200 range is irrlevant, classes are not balanced on one aspect, classes do different levels of damage, have different levels of mobility, etc, classes are balanced as a whole.

Gamblit.5041:

If Rangers shortbow can shoot from 1200 and Warriors can increase the range of their Longbows to 1200 as well, why can’t Thief Pistols do the same?

Perhaps, because there are numerous other areas in which theives are superior to rangers and there is a thing called balance.

CptCosmic.3156:

yeah lets not point at the engineer bug list that is longer than the list of all other classes put together…

You have obviously never visisted the necro forum…

And how many warriors will be happy when they realize that for added versitility the damage would be nerfed.

Rizzy.8293:

Oh and being rewarded for doing something challenging is part of games being fun.
Otherwise you’re just wasting time.

No, it is just wasting time. The point of a game is to have fun, I always find it amusing how some people think the point is to get better stats for some non-existent pixels, especially when many of them actively moan about how boring it is having to do some dungeon/dialy quest/raid, etc for the billionth time in order to get that better gear for their non-existent pixels.

I don’t need to be rewarded (other than the reward of beating a challenge) when I play an RTS, or a MOBA or a zillion other games, if yo don’t find the game play in itself fun, then playing for non-existant rewards is just lame.

People strive for things – like rewards not simply for ‘doing something’. That’s silly and everyone knows it. That’s like running the Indy 500 and not getting a prize just a pat on the back "good job feel good but sorry no prize for your time. Sorry that doesn’t cut it.

The rather obvious difference being running the Indy 500 is their job, a game is for entertainment as such there is no comparision.

It is pretty simple if the game play is fun then play the game, if not find another game, if you are merely playing a game for “rewards” such as better stats for you non-existant pixels, then you’d be better off getting rewards in real life.

We really need a damage parser. Every profession has thread upon thread or posters claiming their class needs a damage buff because they are under powered. I am indeed curious to see actual parsed numbers.

Not really, certain classes have a lot of threads (eng, mes (in regard to PvE), necro, etc), others have very few (warrior, thief, ranger), you don’t need a parser to know certain classes do signifcantly more damage than others, it is fairly obvious if you smply play a selection of classes or pay attention in game.

Some have spelling so bad they keep spelling ‘ranger’ as ‘hunter’…

I have no idea why people bother to message you, that is just lame, but anyway I think the general gripe about thieves is that they are pretty easy to play, have lot of skills that handle the mobilty for you (e.g leap to the target, leap away, etc) which is quite easy compared to other games I’ve played where it is down to you to get in postion/get away more rather than a skill that is doing it for you. Then on top of that very high burst damage compared to most classes, the best escapbility (which tends to annoy players) and the ability to easily leave then re-enter combat.

The only “diffcult” bit is they are quite squishy, but then then this is largely offest by the fact they can escape better than any other class can easily leave and re-enter combat a little later, are hugely mobile, etc, so really the only “difficult” bit is not getting burst down / making sure you have inititive (which is often largely negated by traits) / utlity skills off cooldown to escape.

Which bacially leaves it as very powerful class in sPvP, that is pretty faceroll to play and tends to irritate others as it can so easily escape, hence the whining (not helped by the fact some people are playing classes that are somewhat UP and have lots of broken skills/traits, eg – Necro).

Arken.3725:

I’m just not understanding how one can complain about the “balance,” when the ability to completely avoid damage on such a short cd is just that. Other classes have similar abilities but on much longer cool downs(90s on endure pain). Granted you can move, but the point is it’s not spammable. It would make more sense to add maybe confusion instead of invulnerability.

Whether other classes have a long cooldown is irrelvant, classes aren’t balanced on one thing in isolation.

XZERO.3014:

Thief Dislikes:
- Completely mainstream(i dont like being the guy playing the “OP” class)

This made me chuckle, not that I disagree when it comes to thief, but that your alternative to the “mainstream OP class” is warrior…