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About no weapon stats with the kits… Let’s place the cards on the tabls, who uses kits over the regular weapons to spam attacks anyways? And personally I feel Engineer might be considered OP with the addition of this, considering how much our might stacking has grown, and I’d rather keep things as they are than having them nerfed to “compensate” for kits with weapon stats.
There is nothing to “compensate” for, in sPvP there are no stats on weapons, kits don’t do less damage in sPvP than WvW or PvE, engineers have simply been playing at a disadvanatge outside of sPvP, because this is yet another feature that was not put in before release.
I’d say that this class has enormous potential and is by no means out of the game yet – It’s just not a class that you can pick up and do very well with when you don’t play against skillfull enemies.
Get good at it though, and jebus.
It is a class that is not tier one for anything in tPvP, it has had its best role – bunker/point holder, gradually nerfed with the removal of stability from flamethrower trait, nerf to smoke bomb, etc, to the point it is clearly not as good as certain other classes in this role anymore.
Yes it is a more difficult class to play , but that isn’t relevant, unless you are under the delusion it is only bad or average players that think the Engineer class has issues, I was watching a stream of a very good engineer today, he described the state of the class as “currently weak”.
For some reason, people here say engineer…
Because most of them are giving him the answer that the question “which is the OP class?” deserves.
highest dps , perma stealth due to culling and best mobility on one class is too much. this needs to be fixed.
no aegis, no protection , no stability , no CC, lowest base armor / HP
forgot to mention ?How is medium armour the lowest base armour?
How are cripples, fear, immobilize & stun a class with no CC?
You can actually get every boon on a thief, if you are fighting a mesmer.
Something else that often gets ignored is the really good condition removal.
But anyway in WvW at least thieves have the best surviabilty by far, stealth + mobility is simply far superior to anything else in the WvW enviroment, there is a distinct lack of risk vs reward for a thief.
you can actualy get invisibility on every class if you play norn race , or you can be stealthed by an ally, if you take the example from boon when you steal an mesmer
Can you compare thief’s lol CC with eng CC ? or with guardian’s ? or other class ?
Imobilize from short bow come from stealth – you have to use utility to stealth with short bow.
Sword build that got imobilize got no burst
D/D build got no CC , P/D build got no CC – those are the builds ppls complain on
I sort of agree on the boons, it is an outlier as such, I was just explaining it was possible on that one.
However in regard to CC, that it is not as good as an engy is irrelevant, thief has CC, several of them, claiming the class has none is just flat out incorrect.
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highest dps , perma stealth due to culling and best mobility on one class is too much. this needs to be fixed.
no aegis, no protection , no stability , no CC, lowest base armor / HP
forgot to mention ?
How is medium armour the lowest base armour?
How are cripples, fear, immobilize & stun a class with no CC?
You can actually get every boon on a thief, if you are fighting a mesmer.
Something else that often gets ignored is the really good (and easily accessible) condition removal.
But anyway in WvW at least thieves have the best surviabilty by far, stealth + mobility is simply far superior to anything else in the WvW enviroment, there is a distinct lack of risk vs reward for a thief.
Which is why there are so many thieves that go glass cannon, they (along with mesmers to a slightly lesser extent) are the only ones that can with such a small increase in risk.
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What I do find interesting is have you ever thought why people play WvW instead? Be honest now, cuz I am the same why, could it be because like to use the gear you’ve earned both stats wise and looks wise to beat others in PVP? Amazing, it almost seems like what most mmo players said they wanted the least, (a gear grind in pvp where gear is just as important as skill), is secretly actually what mmo players DO want, they prove it when they would rather play WvW than PVP if they do it because of rewards/thier gear. I know I would rather play WvW sometimes because I want to use the gear i worked so hard for or the look/legendary i worked so hard for in pvp and not go to spvp where none of it matters. I honestly feel most players feel the same way, amazing how this “anti gear-grind” thoery that GW2 imposed seems to be failure. In Gw2 PVP they dont go by the normal carrot-on-a-stick methodology, its just a stick, and it seems to not be working.
Only if you like to come out with theories based on no actual data or evidence… This may come as a shock, but lots of people who play WvW simply like that playstyle and played games like DAoC, it also might come as a shock, but many of the people who used to stream sPvP and stopped, did not go to WvW, they went to other games like LoL or DOTA 2.
The sPvP is simply not that appealing in this game, lots of people do not want to have to be in a team to compete without being facerolled, teams don’t want to play against pugs that are just faceroll, the casual “fun” sPvP is simply bad, zerging about a map is not fun.
I played thousands of warfronts in Rift (the equivalent of sPvP), in theory I should be in their sPvP demogrpahic, but I’ve barely played it since about the first three weeks.
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Each and every game ever released which contained a stealth class ends up with a mountain of QQ which inevitably ends up with the said stealth class to be nerfed into the ground.
Because MMOs, for the most part are a particularly stagnant area and they constantly repeat the same mistakes and same unoriginal ideas, one of which is the totally flawed assassin type you get in most games, which is basically unbalanceable.
Stealth in itself is not the issue, other than being annoying to many, it is the fact they so often pair stealth with huge burst and the abilty to get away, which always means risk vs reward is off for these type of classes, particularly in open world type situations, there is simply no way to balance it on that flawed design, so it will constantly see-saw between OP & UP and rightly attract a lot of complaints.
Doesn’t make any sense
Is it possible for you to post why? That’s the point of the thread.
Catergorized servers just because you don’t like one tiny bit of WvW, seems silly, also if you want “hardcore” why are you even playing GW2, it is a fluffy game in virtually every respect, surely you should be playing mass PvP in a sandbox game with full loot like EVE or the new Darkfall.
Not everyone is totally self centred. I tried to make it clear that I’m considering the community as a whole.
I already posted why, I guess it wasn’t obvious enough:
- Wasting resources to catergorize servers on the basis of one very, very minor aspect of WvW, is silly.
- Connecting “hardcore” with not liking that tiny aspect, is silly.
As for “self centered”, you must be kidding, try looking in the mirror, you want them to waste resources on setting up a system and split up the playerbase, because you don’t like one tiny event in WvW.
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The servers are not in the same place, the EU ones are in Germany, hence it is a performance issue.
As i see over 9 threads of kids crying for nerfs on thieves and you deleting any other nerf _______ class threads it’s a joke. Being forces to re roll because people don’t stop nerfing your class isn’t my idea of a fun mmo so i want to you make my warrior lvl 80 and delete my thief because it will soon be useless. Its funny when you cant post your ideas bout problems with another class with out it being deleted or getting called a troll, but you can make 9 threads on thief nurfs? When will anet stop being so blind when it comes to class balance.
Remove the chip from your shoulder, lots of classes have been nerfed, some more heavily than thieves – engineer for instance, which has also had the single biggest nerf in the game, the removal of stability from the juggernaut trait.
Doesn’t make any sense, I’ve played far more WvW than anything else, which apparently makes me “hardcore”, I’m also fine with the event.
Catergorized servers just because you don’t like one tiny bit of WvW, seems silly, also if you want “hardcore” why are you even playing GW2, it is a fluffy game in virtually every respect, surely you should be playing mass PvP in a sandbox game with full loot like EVE or the new Darkfall.
We long for the good old days of an even play field, no matter your standing in real life.
You mean the MMOs where those with more spare time in real life to play thier choosen MMO had an advantage, there was no level playing field.
They are disliked because:
1 – Many people find stealth an unfun mechanic to play against (in much the same way many find CC annoying), this is made worse in GW2 as unlike most games you can in-combat stealth multiple times and damage does not break stealth.
2 – The ratio of risk vs reward is completely out of line, my thief can initiate combat on my terms better than every class (joint best with D/D Ele) and can then reset the encounter or just get away better than any other class if I muck up or am outplayed, thanks to the combination of multiple stealths plus super mobility, too little risk.
3 -They are pretty faceroll to play and get results with.
4 – The illogical excuses put forward such as “I am a glass cannon, I die easy”, the fact that a thief glass cannon (along with mesmers) have far more survivabilty than other classes if specced glass cannon seems to be ignored. Or “get some toughness / spec defensively”, yes that is right “balance” is the meta being based around other classes (mesmers excepted) having to build around thieves, the only class allowed to freely go glass cannon, again risk vs reward.
5 – The persecution complex, guess what thieves are not the only class to recieve nerfs nor even the most nerfed class , my engineer has been nerfed more (yes engineer probably the least played class in the game), including the biggest nerf in the game (removal of stability on flamethrower trait).
Much of this goes far more for WvW (and to a lesser extent hot join PvP) rather than tPvP, in tPvP if a thief has to run off from a point holder, then the point holder has won, kept the points ticking over for their team, in WvW if a thief has to run off, you get no badges, plus you were just slowed down on the way to defending that keep, the thief won.
It is also compounded by culling issues (again more in WvW) and guess what, they may never solve those issues…
The class is designed on a flawed premise (stealth->huge burst->abilty to escape) that has been unbalanceable in many games, and in some ways is even worse in GW2, multiple in-combat stealths + best mobility + damage does not break stealth, really?
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tier 2.
arborstone has already won because they have huge imba-zergs all day and all night. but the fight for second place is still going strong and will probably keep going until the very last minute.
If they’ve already won inside half the duration of the match-up, it isn’t competitve, the very fact teams are wiped from a map enough for them to consider bringing in a solution in the first place, shows just how uncompetive most WvW matches are. (At least on the EU)
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WvW is essentially PvX.
TRUE PvP is found in the Heart of the Mists.
WvW is PvP as much as anything else, the entire point of it is competiting against other players / teams, that is the very definition of PvP, there is no player vs enviroment in it, the “PvE” elements provide zero competion for a player, they are all inconquestional as they are balanced on the basis of other players being there to provide the difficulty, PvP does not mean player combat.
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New tactic, just don’t attack the last tower, shame this is completely kitten at the top tiers or even the middle tiers. Oh wait at any competitive tier it is a pile of kitten.
If your server is not competitive in wvw i’m sorry i really feel for you, but did wvw really need a new pve event to provide absolutely no solution to your tiers performance? Do you enjoy your tower,? Does it make you comfortable? Do you feel safe chilling out in there? Does those extra few points won by a pve champion make you feel proud?
What competitve tiers are these? Most matches were over by yesterday, several before that, which is pretty typical of the EU tiers, there is nothing competitve in the slighest, whoever has the most coverage in a tier wins, that is it.
Breakout is fine, spawn camping is lame, but then the fact so many times maps have got to the spawn camping situation just says it all about how competitve WvW is.
Nothing wrong with zerging in itself, it is an issue of balance, the design of WvW in GW2 (small maps, objectives very close together, the speed a zerg can take down an objective, etc) simply favours zerging far too much, which makes for a more shallow, not as good as it could be, WvW.
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There are lots of reasosn not to 1 v1 (at least some of time):
- People are on a low level / undergeared toon.
- People are traited for support or some other build that is not good for 1 v 1.
- People have more important things to do, like getting to the garrison / keep, to defend / attack.
Really if you want more 1 v 1, play tournaments.
Agree with MrBig on this one – the game needs nerfs to both burst and bunker to bring it closer to balance and make less extreme and more varied builds viable = more interesting fights that can ebb and flow. All classes should be able to win a 1v1 against any build, you should just have a bit better or worse chance to win depending on if you are playing the counter to your build. But … doesnt seem like the balance is going that way, or if it is, it wont get there till mid 2013 at the earliest. Sigh
Sounds like you want to reduce variety to me, you want classes/builds to head even more to some homogenized center point where there are less options for full out defence or attack, this game already lacks variety class terms, reducing that even further just sounds really dull.
The only time an ele ever got away from me was if they were close enough to a tower/keep to mistform through the portal. Short of that, its a joke ability as it doesnt do anything but give u another 3 secs of “life”.
It is saved me on my Ele many, many times, yes sometimes going through a door in a tower, but more often it has enabled me to get back close enough to my own team to recieve a res and occasionally in a hectic situation it has allowed me to disappear round the corner or into a dip out of sight and then use the 4 key to heal myself.
I don’t get why people cry about this……………
Ele downed state sucks, yet im not complaining and i don’t have a problem with downed state.
People need to realize that its part of the game.
Get used to it or go L2P.
also, competition time:
how many threads can you link crying about the downed state?
People “cry” about it, because it simply exacerbates the design flaws that already exist in WvW, i.e – zerging, the downstate simply favours the zerg (larger group) even more.
Incidentally ele has one of the best down states in the game, the mist form thing is ridiculous.
The problem is that a-net still thinks that they can turn the conquest mode into an e-sport, sigh…
Balance should have been around 5v5 or 8v8 deathmatch, not around running around the map – avoiding pvp to win.Objectives, map control, organisation, etc are PvP.
PvP does not equate simply to players hitting each other over the head.
As for deathmatch, as you said they went for this e-sport thing, I guess they looked at what happened to WoW as an e-sport even with their sub base, then looked at LoL…
World Of Warcraft has been around since 2004, And has had more time and money to successfully make wow into a pretty competitive e-sport. Although I see great potential in guild wars 2 it simply has not delivered when it comes to pvp “yet”. Things take time to flourish, and yes I always like to route for a underdog to give a fresh taste of innovation when it comes to the mmo world. Especially when the top money maker like WoW has been around for longer than I would have liked. People will only hold on to something reliable for so long, which is probably the reason why people still continue to play it.
You missed the point, WoW failed as an e-sport with arena even with its large sub base, the most successful e-sport is objective based – LoL, this is why games go with objective modes, no one wants to watch simplistic Arena / Deathmatch.
The problem is that a-net still thinks that they can turn the conquest mode into an e-sport, sigh…
Balance should have been around 5v5 or 8v8 deathmatch, not around running around the map – avoiding pvp to win.
Objectives, map control, organisation, etc are PvP.
PvP does not equate simply to players hitting each other over the head.
As for deathmatch, as you said they went for this e-sport thing, I guess they looked at what happened to WoW as an e-sport even with their sub base, then looked at LoL…
Nah, trust me, this is different…seriously
Why would anyone trust you, when yo think one uptick constitutes a trend, the only trend it is related to is the Xfire stats show a peak at every event, the actual trend is downward, not that Xfire means much these days, as it represents a certain type of player and is too small these days.
Nope, it’s simply that ANET knows that in any game with any kind of competition, there are going to those who can’t deal and complain.
Not really, ANET have already stated WvW is “for fun”, the competition is in tPvP, which is where of course they balance PvP for, which results in unblanced classes in WvW, which causes people to complain that mainly play WvW.
The reason the thief is the biggest cause for complaint (in regard to classes) in WvW is because in terms of risk vs reward, there is simply far less risk than any other class, because on my thief I can inititate combat better than any other class (joint best with D/D Ele), I can reset a fight if I muck up better than any other class, then I can escape the fight completely better than any other class, which is why you will see so many glass cannon thieves, lack of risk.
People will rightly complain about this, the only people who “can’t deal with it” are those that are too fragile to accept the classes are not playing on a level playing field in WvW.
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I like how it is more player-skill based now than just specialization and gears.
It is only more skill based if you compare it to certain faceroll classes (simplistic DPS, tanks which are easy to tank with, etc), however compared to many classes/builds (Chlorodom in Rift for PvP, Loremaster in LOTRO, etc) the GW2 classes require signifcantly less awareness, much less multitasking, less thought in general.
Furthermore in regard to movement, that only goes for PvE (and again goes for some games more than others), if you stand still in most games in PvP you are dead (and terrible).
I like my characters to be attractive. I like to put them in attractive clothing. I often feel that less is more…
Perhaps I am being premature; but several games, have had a very noisy groups of prudes. Being so vocal and outspoken they get attention, and as the level cap raised or new content was added, the female armor became more and more Concealing. I do not want that happening here!
The problem is many of us just play the game and simply ignore the opinions of people we disagree with. “They are crazy, who would listen to them?” If you don’t speak up, then all anet sees is a bunch of noisy prudes, who have no apparent opposition within the community…Silence is often taken as a sign of agreement…
A simple post consisting of a quote and an, “I disagree.” is enough.
If you don’t like a trend then speak up and be counted. No need to elaborate or defend your position. No need to answer a call out by the opposition. Your preference is justified because it is your preference.
I don’t want female humanoids to look like blocky robots, nuns, or bigfoot.
By all means let us continue to have large and interesting shaped cleavage windows, bare midriffs, and eye high skirts! Especially in new content!Agree or disagree?
Disagree, in many games, both the physical appearance plus most of the clothing/armour looks like it has been designed by a teenage boy going through puberty that has sex on his mind 24 hours a day and thinks females should ideally look like they are standing a in Reeperbahn window or worse still in some games the races (or least some of them) and their get-ups look like they’ve asked a paedophile to design them (whatever that race is in Tera).
GW2 is nice change from that.
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Erm really, you’ve posted a link to a blog post that is based on the sales at Greenmangaming and decided to extrapolate that to global sales, wow…
Incidentally a few months after release doesn’t mean that much, Arma 2 is two years old and 7th in the top sellers list on Steam, The Sims 3 is 5th at Amazon.co.uk and was released in 2009.
If by “working together” you mean perform a very, very simple set of rote tasks, then sure.
Simple role tasks? The last game I raided in was LOTRO, I played a loremaster, a support class, the level of awareness, multitasking and general complexity was way beyond the simplistic excuse for PvE in GW2, some of the stuff I had to do on my loremaster:
- Keep stun immunity up on the tank (sometimes tank healer also)
- Keep up debuffs, often multiple mobs.
- Cleanse people
- Off heal
- Sometimes keep one, occasionally two mobs perma CC’d.
- Drain power from bosses/mobs and feed power to healers, captains, etc
- In any spare moments do some DPS.
- CC, debuff, peel any mob that decided it wanted to go after a healer.
- Finally whilst doing all of this, I would mange a pet.
The same goes for the healer I played, a Runekeeper, which was largely based on HOTs, again required much more awareness, multitasking, etc than anythign in GW2. (And to be fair any DPS class or tank in LOTRO, there is a reason healers and certain support classes are regarded as the most demanding to play in most MMOs)
The same even goes for the tank, a warden, but you’d probably have to of played one to understand why.
The last MMO I played was Rift I didn’t do much PvE in that, but I did plenty of PvP, my favourite build was a chlorodom, again it was way beyond the simplistic play you get in GW2, trying to heal, cleanse, debuff, CC, cope with idiot team mates that LOS of themselves, etc, whislt beign constantly focus fired, it is just on another level compared to the simplistic DPS oreintated stuff you get in GW2 (and of course DPS in general).
The flaw in this game isn’t the lack of the trinity,…
I agree you don’t need a trintiy, but the way they’ve done it, very simplistic glorified ARPG classes where everyone can effectively look after themseleves with little variation is simply not that good, it is an anti-teamwork design, it is a design that lacks variety, especially for PvE.
I also don’t think their design lets them push the difficulty of dungeons either, I thik the tolerances as it were for success or failure have to be larger than your typical trinity based system.
Which is why most people I know who like hardcore PvE, have gone back to games with raids, even putting aside some of them miss the healer/support/tank playstyle, a lot of them miss the tight level of performance / teamwork they actually need to compete the instance.
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The number of people in here who don’t have the slightest clue about how thief works (but don’t let that stop them from demanding their fix!) is appalling.
Some basics:
All thief weapon skills work off of initiative, not cooldowns. Cloak and Dagger doesn’t have a “cooldown.” If you have enough initiative, you can use it.
One person has mentioned a cooldown for Cloak& Dagger, mentions of cooldown by others are in relation to non-weapon skills like Blinding Powder, skills in other games, etc.
Ultimately, there’s a couple issues that people have with thief:
1) Glass cannons don’t think there should be a cost for their complete shunning of defensive stats and skills. These players are upset because thieves actually expose the weaknesses of those builds..
The only people who think there should be no cost for the shunning of defensive stats are the bad gamers who defend the flawed OP thief design. If I play my engineer as glass cannon, I accept if I muck up or misjudge a situation or someone simply plays better, I will get punished for that, the same can’t be said if I play glass cannon on my thief, where often I able to escape the same situation due to the flawed class design of numerous in-combat stealths + huge mobility.
It seems some people can’t grasp the fairly fundamental notion of risk vs reward (and yes this applies to your point 4), something totally out of line on my thief, which is precisely why you will see more glass cannon thieves than any other class.
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I’m pretty sure someone at ArenaNet stated, in an interview at one point, that they didn’t want thieves to have stealth available at all times…
Putting aside thieves can still permastealth (or they could a while ago, maybe they fixed it?, yesterday was the first time I’ve played in weeks), in exchange for perma stealth they have created the most OP stealth class I have ever played (at least in WvW), for a couple of reasons:
1 – In most games I’ve played, damage breaks stealth, in many DOTs prevent stealth, not in GW2. This makes it worse than permastealth, especially in WvW, as any thief with at least 9 brain cell will not run off in the obvious direction.
2 – Most games rightly recognize in-combat stealth as a get out of jail free card, so there is normally only one skill for this and it is on a long cooldown (2 mins or something), yet in GW2 there are multiple skills for this all on relatively short cooldowns, some simply reliant on having initiative and striking any opponent.
What then makes the two points above even more OP is that the thief class has the best mobility in the game, so from the point of view of say getting away in WvW, it is no different to permastealth, because most of the time a player of a different class will not be able to catch a thief.
They should of made the stealth, non-stackable, plus with a longer no-stealth debuff between, so you would use it as a way to confuse, change your angle of attack, get an advantage, etc, but not being out of view half the fight as with some thief builds or as a near guarantee to escape (when combined with the mobility) when you muck up, the risk vs reward is totally off as a thief, if I play my engineer glass cannon I am punished if I muck up, if I play my thief much of the time I am not, hence why so, so many thiefs run glass cannon compared to other classes.
And this is without even going into the culling issues…
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I’ve noticed that folks complaining about lack of teamwork also are the same ones refusing to change their playstyle.
Folks, please stop being hyperbolic and refusing to learn the new system. If you understood the new system, you’d know how players can work together.
Except due to the system you don’t need to work together to anywhere near the same extent as you do in many other games, nor is it just teamwork as a whole as such, it is more specific, things like communication, someone on the forums summed it up pretty well a while ago, which roughly went “In GW2 any vaguely competent group can complete any of the dungeons without saying a word to each other”, in many other games communication is key for difficult instances, because you actually have to rely on people.
Saying, “But I like to be the one to keep people alive!” is in no way about teamwork; you’re actually trying to STOP others from working together to keep the group alive.
I don’t think it is simply about “being the one keeping everyone alive”, there are other aspects, play style for instance, even set up as a “healer” in GW2 you still spend a lot time DPS, many of your heals or cleanses are by-products of DPS skills, it is only a small change in style from a more typicaly build, where as in many other games healing is a complete change in style from DPS.
Same goes for multitasking or awareness, there is nothing in this game that requries the same level of multitasking or awareness as certain healers or certain support roles in other games I’ve played.
The classes in GW2 remind me more of glorified Diablo classes, where they all bascially DPS, but with tools to survive on their own such as a degree of healing, some CC, a bit of utlity, etc,
They have less variety and are less demanding than the most complex classes in some other games, some of us miss that variety and level of multitasking / awareness. (As a plus point they are generally more demanding than some of the faceroll DPS classes you get in other games)
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Anet did mess things up when they made servers continent specific, it has caused a lot of hassle especially to large global based guilds who have ended up splitting apart due to Anet’s decision to do this.
Large global based guilds should surely have picked either a US or EU server, if they decided to split themselves up that is their fault, not Anet’s.
As for making servers continent specific, it makes perfect sense, you get better performance with localised servers, hence why many games do it, not everyone has a super fast connection, nor does everyone live as near to a proposed global server as you may do.
I’ve played a game where they switched from local servers to global ones, the difference was noticeable and in part led me to stop playing the game. The game was LOTRO, they moved teh EU servers to the US (Boston), I am in the UK, on the surface the difference in ping was fine it went from about 60-70 to 120-150, the problems however were there were far more spikes (1000ms+) and I actually started getting packet loss at times, this got worse the further east you went in Europe, we had people in Poland who at times got 20% packet loss, guess what they lost players.
And in a game like GW2 which has big culling issues already (which may never be solved), degrading performance further is just a mind numbingly silly idea.
To the OP, if it is taking too much time up, then take some responsibilty for yourself and play less.
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Fellas. No need to fight. WvW is simply a hybrid. It is neither PVP or PVE. It is both mixed together.
Nope, it is PvP, nothing else.
The ‘v’ stands for versus, which means competing against, not killing. As it does in ‘PvE’, of which there is zero competiton against the “PvE” elements in WvW as in themselves they are all insignifcant, because they are balanced on the basis of opposing players being there to interfere.
Next people will be telling me LoL is PvE, because it has mobs and objectives in.
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We can debate out this aslong as you want to. This is ANet their official response to why WvW has PvE in it.
WvW is a PvE setting that allows players to kill eachother. Which is also the reason why PvP balance issues don’t apply in WvW.
I’m not saying I agree with ANet for doing so, just saying that they did and thus there is no reason comparing WvW to PvP because they are, according to ANet, two completely different things.
Which still makes it PvP, PvP in a “PvE setting” (or open world) does not make it PvE, if it was PvE you would not be able to kill other players, nor would the entire point of the thing be competing against the other teams, you would compete against the enviroment.
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Anet just needs to adjust server populations to registered and active accounts, something like if an account doesn’t log in for 3 months then it’s no longer counted toward server population.
They probably already do, which would explain why some servers move down to very high or high at off-peak times.
The other problem is events, which keeps accounts active, I know a fair few people (in fact entire guilds) that have basically stopped playing GW2, but they come back for a day or two for a bit of fun at the events, then leave the game for another month…
Anet designed WvW as PvE. If you are not doing pve on WvW, you are not doing it right dude.
As far as PvP in GW2 is concerned, it is only in sPvP. Outside of sPvP, EVERYTHING is PvE. Get it?
This is about as correct as it can get.
ANet stated that s/tPvP would be the environment that focused on PvP and PvP alone.
WvW is a PvE setting where players can battle other players. This is no way states that WvW = PvP + PvE. It says WvW = PvE with a small element of PvP. They made their point when they started doing balance changes but ONLY for s/tPvP.
There is no need to keep comparing WvW and PvP because it’s not the same. You are in fact playing PvE with the added element that a hostile player can in fact kill you while you farm Exp/Karma/Gold…
Not really, PvP means player versus player, versus does not mean killing it means competing against.
WvW is PvP just like any other open world PvP / RvR, you compete against the other team to accumulate points, part of that involves combat, but it also involves objectives, organsiation, etc, it is all PvP, it is all competeintg against the other teams.
As for Anet, perhaps you should tell them they have put WvW under the wrong forum heading (“PvP Discussion”), at least accordng to you.
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Perhaps it depends on what you are used to, I delibrately avoid playing DPS in most MMOs, precisely becasue they are largely too simplistic and in some ways the GW2 classes are step up (at least from the simplistic ones).
However compared to many of the support or healers I’ve played, every GW2 class is simplistic and requires far less multitasking / awareness, for example I used to play LOTRO, in raids on my loremaster (a support class) I would often do the following:
- Keep stun immunity up on the tank (sometimes tank healer also)
- Keep up debuffs, often multiple mobs.
- Cleanse people
- Off heal
- Sometimes keep one, occasionally two mobs perma CC’d.
- Drain power from bosses/mobs and feed power to healers, captains, etc
- In any spare moments do some DPS.
- CC, debuff, peel any mob that decided it wanted to go after a healer.
- Finally whilst doing all of this, I would mange a pet.
It also involved things that barely exist in GW2, like having to rapidly switch targets, between mobs/boss and team mates, a level of mutli-tasking / awareness that it just not needed in GW2 PvE, the same was true of may other support or healing classes.
GW2 classes, especailly on the PvE front seem very simplistic and very samey, in comparision, in some respects they remind more DIablo or Torchlight classes than an MMORPG class.
About the only aspect that requries more in GW2 PvE is you have to move much and are much more likely to attract the attention of mobs.
Which is the reason every hardcore Pver I know (who is not burnt out on raiding) has gone back to games where the PvE requires a bit more, as have many who prefer healing, or complex support classes, as essentially GW2 classes are all DPS with varying levels of utlily/support tacked on depending on gear/traits, etc, but none provide the total change in style that a healer or a CC class does in other MMOs.
Furthermore from a general group play perspective, you just don’t need the organisation or communication that you do in most otehr MMOs, GW2 PvE is very newb / casual in style.
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im yet to see ANY developer make a fair rounded and balanced assassin-type class in any MMO, past or current.
^That, the entire concept of stealth->huge burst->ability to disengage combat is just an utterly flawed premise to design a class on, it it not unique to GW2, it causes issues in many MMOs which usually results in the said class see-sawing between OP & UP, it is bascially impossible to balance, especially in open world type envrioments.
In some ways the GW2 is especially bad, as they have removed some of the inbuilt weaknesses ths class type has in other games, such as:
- In most games, in-combat stealth is rightly considered a big deal, it is a free get out of jail card, so these are typically a single skill, that is also on a long cooldown (2mins or somthing), in GW2 in-combat stealth is virtually available on demand.
- Damage breaks stealth in other games, in many dots prevent stealth, not GW2.
Then on top of that they have also given out the best mobility (or joint top with some Ele builds if you want to argue).
It is hilarious when I compare my Thief in GW2 to my Burglar in LOTRO, a class that was rightly considered OP in that game, the burglar had little mobility, no faceroll teleport to target stuff, had good burst, but did not do the damage of a DPS class, virtually no range, virtually no AOE (one skill on a long cooldown), had 1 in-combat stealth and was much, much more complex and demanding to play.
What they should of done, is made thief an attrition class and if they are going to go with the multiple in-combat stealths, then they all need to be short (shadow refuge stealth lasts too long), plus the no-stealth debuff between stealths is too short (Nor should stealth stack), they also gave way too much mobility, having a class that can initiate better than others and also disengage / escape better is just moronic, combat is too much on one classes terms.
It is also bad for the thief class, because it will result in lots of trips to Nerfville.
The only game I’ve played where they do stealth right is EVE, but in part that is down to the game mechanics (gates), but they also realize you don’t give a stealth class top tier damage.
I realise the pre-release talk is rather hollow now, but it is funny one of the things stated was that GW2 was going to be different, yet for the most part it is the same old same old, certainly with Thieves.
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That post actually says “independently of where they created their accounts” but doesn’t actually make a comment about whether the cap is established by active or total accounts. I’ll try find the post. I’m fairly sure it was by a dev and not a community coordinator.
Edit to add: Apparently I’m not the only one who remembers this dev post. Link I’m having trouble finding posts older than a couple days right now, so I’m not sure if I’ll be able to find it. Hopefully a dev will see that thread and set down the facts.
It still seems to be saying it is down to the number of accounts on the server to me, nor does the alternative seem to tally with what happens at 3 AM, when I used to play, Desolation EU was still “full” at 3 AM, despite having a tiny fraction of the number of people on there that were on at primetime.
Nor does it seem very logical, if it was based on how many were currently logged on, then (to take an extreme example just to show th epoint) if everyone logged off for a couple of hours and a zillion people then transfered to that server, you have just doubled the population, there is no way to control the population with that system.
But yes it would be good if they clarified it again this is not the only thread it has come up in.
According to a dev post a while back, server populations are calculated against “current online” not “total accounts.” At least that’s how it works for server transfers.
According to this post https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Server-Populations/first populations are calculated on accounts, not who is logged in, where is this dev post you speak of?
That quote is really bad english. It could easily mean multiple things.
Seems clear enough to me.
Plus it is just from a PR person, not from a Dev.
You don’t have to be a dev to understand if the login system is based on accounts or the number of people logged in.
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I believe it is, read my full definition. In order for it to actually open up, it must go under a certain soft limit. Like it needs to be 75% or less for it to bump down to ‘Very High’ etc. I could be wrong though, I’m not a dev, but that’s my 2 cents.
It isn’t, it is based on accounts that the server is home to – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Server-Populations/first .
Nor from the point of view of controlling server pops would making it based on how many are currently logged in make any sense at all. For example (and yes, this unrealistic, but it is just to show the poitn), if everyone from the No1 WvW server logged off for a day, then it would go to low, a zillion other people move to the server, you then have a server which has just doubled its “full” population.
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It is based on currently logged in accounts.
It isn’t, I’ve been on at 3 am at times when the server is very empty indeed, yet it is still marked “full”.
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How come when the population drops from full, its always outside of NA primetime?
Also how would servers ever drop from full in the first place? I doubt they are increasing server size due to their playerbase increasing.
Just a guess – they remove inactive accounts from the population calculation after a certain number of hours.
So for example if the cut off period is 240 hours and I logged out at 10pm, 240 hours ago, at 10.01pm my account would no longer be included in the calculation, repeat for however many players, most of which play somewhere around peak times and you get the population dropping at off peak.
I really would love a reply for a Dev as to why they don’t do this, even “we can’t tell you” would be nice.
The devs used to do this in LOTRO, at least on major class updates (no idea if they still do), they called them “dev diaries” and went through the reasoning for the changes, why they didn’t change other stuff, what they plan for the future, etc.
Like this:
http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdiaries/1015-update-2-minstrel-developer-diary
Coincidentally they also had the best, most polite community in any MMORPG I’ve ever played, perhaps there is a connection between being kept informed / good communication and a better community…
That would be true except for you picked an article to defend where the poster said explicitly that there were roving patches of people with ascended apparently owning everyone else….so yes, being able to tell if they were in ascended is relevant.
Erm, no I didn’t, I responded to a troll who plucked it out of thin air that the reason people were complaining was becasue they had lost to people wearing ascended gear and were looking for excuses.
Despite the fact half the people who have responded have barely played since the patch and people have pointed out numerous times, that currently with just three bits & tier 1 infusions, the advantage is tiny and unlikely to change the outcome of an encounter.
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why so prickly? did i hit a nerve? i wasn’t actually referring to you, but it looks like i accidentally hit your tender spot. yikes.
I didn’t think you were referring to me, given had you read this thread you would know I’ve played a grand total of about 30 mins since Nov 15th, so I haven’t even fought anyone in WvW since ascended gear was introduced.
As for the feeble to attempt to play the innocent with “why so prickly”, you wrote a comment that amounted to “people are moaning cos they is bad”, if you act like a twelve year old trolling, you will find you get appropriate responses.
if going by the example of current ascended gear, the increase in stats will be negligible.
i don’t understand how you can talk about logic not being my strong suit when you’re making such big leaps of assumption based on nothing but guesswork. your behavior in itself is illogical.
They’ve stated they are going to roll them out to the other slots and add tiers for infusions, it is not guesswork, the stats will not negligible then.
pretty strange that you’re already coming up with excuses for losing fights in the future that you haven’t even participated in, let alone lost.
No one other than in your bizzarre fanatasy world has come up with excuses for losing.
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Yet you see experienced players totally curb-stomping scrubs.
Which is irrelevant, you now what is relevant, the fact that they designed sPvP so everyone has equal gear, even Anet know gear differences = crappy PvP.
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I would say knowledge of whether someone is wearing ascended is relevant because if you cant even tell that the character has it on then how can you assess whether the reason you feel the other player had an advantage is due to gear or your own lack of skill compared to theirs?
You simply assume the former and deny the latter until prove otherwise? How…interesting. Id just like a basic idea of the facts that you follow in order to reach the undeniable conclusion that someone beat you only because they had on 3 pieces of ascended gear.
It is irrelevant, because you don’t need to fight anyone, statisically ascended gear is an advantage, it is a fact and yes, as pointed out many times, currently it is only a tiny advantage that will probably not make any difference 99.5% of the time, but as they roll it out to other slots and add tiers of infusions, then yes it will make a difference.
Some of us bought the game on what they actually said pre-release, a gear treadmill was not part of that, this game was sold on being different, LOL.
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