Guild Wars 2

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Zypher.7609:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Blaeys.3102:

Nex.2450:

Fact is, you cannot fully test the system against thousands of simultaneous users until you actually release it to the public.

The voice of reason in a sea of knee jerk reactions.

or you know… they could open up a PTS and test it with thousands of simultaneous users like every other MMO on the market… But you know… logic…

Or you know… you should not whine about a system you know nothing about…. because.. you know … logic.

How is properly testing a game in the same method as dozens of other companies in the same industry something I know nothing about? I’ve played on plenty of PTS’s in lots of other games. Those games don’t have the massive issues that seem to plague patches in GW2. It isn’t rocket science… mass test major patches… fix the issues… don’t mass test major patches… issues on patch day.

Odd. Every MMORPG I’ve played for any length of time has had issues with patches. It has been the one constant in my gaming experience. UO had them. WoW had them. DAoC had them as well. Horizons had them. I dont remember if Guild Wars had them. I didn’t play the game very long. With LoTRO, I had problems just downloading the game, because after months of knowing, Windows 7 wouldn’t run it right.

This is nothing new to the genre.

I can’t really give much advice on a build, really. I just wanted to post in here to say:

Inb4 “Reroll a warrior!”

But seriously, I’ve heard a lot of people complaining about being excluded from dungeons and fractals for being a necromancer. So be prepared for it.

Brienson.7319:

It’s not a nerf, it’s a bug fix. Skill balance is completely separate from exploitative bugs, you nimrods. Life leech working on doors was deemed as unintended functionality long ago.

You can’t really blame anyone for posting that it’s a nerf. I think we’ve grown accustomed to seeing the necromancer get moved slowly towards the incinerator, so any negative change, even if it only appears to be a negative change, will be trounced upon.

Come to think of it, WvW is often referred to as WvDoor, so in essence, this is a nerf.

“I got a splinter from that door! I wish SoV worked on it!”

I’ve spent $50 in the three months I’ve been playing. However, I plan on spending much more in the future. I just haven’t had much of a reason to spend anymore.

I bought three character slots, so I can have one of each class. I also got a name change, because I didn’t like the name I originally chose after a week of playing. Grrr! I got a Salvage-O-Matic because I think they’re pretty cool. And lastly, I added to my bank tab. I think that covers it.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Junk is held onto in anticipation of needing it at a later date? Check.

Bags fill up with junk? Check.

Players buy gems to increase bank and inventory storage to keep up with the junk? Check.

Appears to be working exactly as intended. Don’t forget they hired someone from Nexon who was involved in the Maple Story economy to advise them on game monetization. The fact that there is so much junk cluttering up our collective inventories is no accident. Use it, sell it, or delete it.

Because Tyria needs conspiracy theorists too.

Orpheal.8263:

Wanze.8410:

This game doesnt need mounts.

And this is just only YOUR opinion.
Don’t make this statement sound like a total statement that counts for everyone, because thats absolutely not the case and will be never the case.

I can suggest to everyone who supports Mounts to wait just only onto the moment, when ANet should open up for mounts their own CDI Thread, because chances will be muhc better in such a thread, that you will see there a real constructive discussion around them as a feature and how they could get implemented, what purpose they could have and so on …

In self made threads you’ll never see such creative and constructive discussions, because all what you’ll get in threads like this here is nonsensical bad mouthing of mounts from biased people that made bad experiences in older terrible games that didn’t care a bit about it, if mounts are in their games an advantage over other players that don’t have them.
In the usual 0815 Asia Grind MMORPG style of MMO are Mounts just always only a money sink, money maker and exist in the game just out of thenm being a fun feature.

All you will see in threads like this are just people, which fear that Anet could implement Mounts, which would work then in the same way, like in all these bad other games that people played, like WoW, Aion, RoM and so on.
Peoplle, which have zero trust in the developers of ANet, that they could implement Mounts into GW2 without repeating the mistakes of many other Game Developers, whereas the solutions to many of the “issues” are very easy, like restricting the places, where Mounts can be used and where not…

Talking with this kind of people is just a waste of time, its like talking to mindless brick walls, that are unable to think and that can’t be creative, or like broken records, that if you play them, permanently repeat themself only with the same junk of arguments nonstop, because they have no better arguments, than to repeat themself until the end of time…. other than the creative mount supporters, that always try to find solutions for any issues that might exist or could come up with the implementation of mounts.

Mounts are a great feature, theres alot of potential for them to be used for new game content besides of them being just only ridable creatures/things for faster character transportation.
Mounts will never replace Waypoints in regard of effectiveness, so why can’t people just accept the fact, that both features could simply coexist with each other?

Nobody will ever be forced to use Mounts… if you just want move from A to B as fast as possible, people will always use Waypoints over Mounts.
if you just want to move from A to B with more style and you have plenty of time to do so, not havign to care about that you reach B as fast as possible, but you want not to run on feet from A to B (because thats then again too slow for you and boring), then people might consider to either rent a Mount or to breed themself a personal mount, would could be just a longterm goal for many players, like working on a legendary weapon… just another different kind of prestige item for indirect horizontal character progression that everybody is free to decide, if you want to take on working on that optional task, or not.

TL, DR

Let this thread die, don’t waste tiem here and wait for the official CDI about them, because there you can expect constructive discussions to happen and not only constant destructive uncreative bad mouthing of biased people, that have no trust in Anet and repeat only themself lamenting over worse game designs of some old games that they have played like nearly 10 years ago or so..

10 years, in which alot has been changed in the game industry, where alot of thigns can be designed now alot better, than 10 years ago. games that get designed anddeveloped today, simply can’t be compared anymore with games, that got designed and developed 10 years ago, because the technics have been developed further and are today alot better enabkling the developers today to do things, that haven#t bee possible for the games 10 years ago.

But alot of all these biased people that are full of fear for mounts seem to live still in the year 2004 and not in the year 2014 mentally >.>

Such rage over a rideable moa.

Raine.1394:

TChalla.7146:

Raine.1394:

My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.

You didn’t really just say that Anet made up the “LF1 Healer for [Dungeon X],” did you? Seriously? I played WoW for years, and I can tell you it DID happen. Quite frequently in fact. And this didn’t just happen in the high end dungeons either. The 5-man instances in the lower levels had the same issue. In fact, even with the LFG tool, I remember having to wait over an hour to get in.

Yep, I really, seriously did.

“We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played. Frankly, we don’t like sitting around spamming “looking for healer” to global chat. That feels an awful lot like preparing to have fun instead of having fun."

Does that sound at all familiar? Have you read about any of the game distinctives from the game developer? This is a game distinctive, no holy trinity and no spamming “looking for healer”. Just like the “we don’t make grindy games” this was pure marketing speak. I have played WoW for years and waiting for groups is a non-issue, at least on my server and battle group.

Just because you didn’t have an issue with it doesn’t make it a non-issue. I know SEVERAL WoW players that had the issue of having to wait for a decent length of time to run a dungeon, simply because no healer and/or tank wasn’t available. And it wasn’t just an isolated case, either. GW2 didn’t make that up. It really did exist. Your claim that it was an urban legend is false.

Mounts in GW2 would:

leave their “calling cards” on the paths for you to step in
graze on someone’s lawn, causing a possible law suit
get targeted by any and all monsters out there, because monsters get hungry too
will need to be trained, which probably wouldn’t be cheap

Nope. I’m good with walking.

Raine.1394:

My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.

You didn’t really just say that Anet made up the “LF1 Healer for [Dungeon X],” did you? Seriously? I played WoW for years, and I can tell you it DID happen. Quite frequently in fact. And this didn’t just happen in the high end dungeons either. The 5-man instances in the lower levels had the same issue. In fact, even with the LFG tool, I remember having to wait over an hour to get in.

If they actually did try and tie the LS story into the WvW map and force PvErs to join in WvW to continue the story, they’d be making a HUGE mistake.

Ultima Online added a function of the game to try and get people into the PvP world (power scrolls). It didn’t take long before the PvErs got fed up and left it. And the complaints… Oh, the complaints!

There is a post about Underworld halfway down page 1 here. I’m predicting this will be merged with that one.

Try this one as a comparison then. (I find it so funny when metaphors and the like are dismissed because it’s not 100% exactly like the situation at hand but is close enough unless you happen to disagree with the result).

When I moved in to my apartment, I ordered cable. I signed a one-year contract, and I got the standard channels with no premium channels for $50 per month (I don’t remember the amount, but $50 is as good as any).

Two months later, I’m watching TV and I see a commercial for the same cable company. If I act right now, I can get the basic setup plus free HBO and Showtime for, you guessed it, $50 per month if I sign up for a one-year contract.

But… but… I just signed up two months ago and didn’t get that deal! A friend of mine had the same thing happen and tried to get upgraded. The upgrade never happened. And it really shouldn’t. Because at the time I signed the contract, it was what was offered, and I was fine with it. The fact that the new deal is better doesn’t matter. I got what I wanted when I wanted it. End of story.

I had contemplated purposely leaving the Ranger off the list and wait for someone to reply that I’d left it off, just so I could say:

“What?!?! There’s a ranger class?!?!”

Aeonblade.8709:

Haha, good post. I’d be a Warrior/Mesmer mix it would seem.

I think I fall into the Warrior/Mesmer class combo myself. The two classes have forum synergy I think.

Poxxia.1547:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Warlord.9074:

I thought this thread was sad on so many levels.

Person talks like this
Writes like this
Spels lik dis

I doubt this dude ever had a GF to begin with and if he did I’m sure she could find other reasons to leave him just based on his post.

p.s. nice signature.

Karla .. you are mean !
PS: I am still puzzled by the “1vall” … does anyone have a clue about the possible meaning of that one?
PPS: I continue to find new gems in the original post … still brilliant.

I’m pretty sure “1vall” is shorthand for he stood alone against the other team by himself, since he could get no help.

The shorthand was another brilliant facet of the brilliant piece.

Raine.1394:

TChalla.7146:

Raine.1394:

TChalla.7146:

IndigoSundown.5419:

There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.

Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.

And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.

And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?

By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.

Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.

If that is what you’re arguing, then it’s not part of the original topic. The original topic is about what it would be like if GW2 had the trinity. My answer is still the same as what I posted before. It would suck.

I’m in agreement that GW2’s mode of dungeon play is lackluster. It’s a DPS fest with little strategy apart from stand here and do this until this happens. But I’ll take what GW2 has before I go back to the trinity system… if for no other reason than having to wait for a healer or tank. In GW2, everyone is DPS. No waiting time.

EDIT: And the dodge mechanic, which I happen to like, even if I suck at it.

Raine.1394:

TChalla.7146:

IndigoSundown.5419:

There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.

Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.

And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.

And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?

By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.

Actually, I’ll say this about GW2 combat. The trinity would make it no better than it currently is. If you really and truly want combat in GW2, you will have to make the combat realistic.

As others have said, it makes no sense for a monster to attack someone in heavy armor doing next to no damage, taunting the monster with “nanny nanny boo boo” while others are behind it pelting it with arrows, magic, etc. In fact, it’s kitten silly.

I personally want to see the monster/bad guy/whatever focusing on the person/people doing to the most harm to it… at all times. You want to be DPS? Have at it, but you’d better be able to dodge too. Enemies should be moving constantly to gain the better position. They need to be able to anticipate what the player is doing. They need intelligence.

Good luck coding that.

To be honest, I think the only way meaningful combat would actually happen is if PvPers were allowed to play the monsters. Turn their chat off and let them be the bad guys. You want strategic and realistic combat. THAT would be the way it would happen.

(ANd no.. I’m not a PvPer)

Raine.1394:

TChalla.7146:

Raine.1394:

VOLKON.1290:

Raine.1394:

VOLKON.1290:

Raine.1394:

You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.

Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.

Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.

I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.

You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.

What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.

Sorry… I have to chime in on this one. If WoW is going to be our basis for what good team combat is supposed to be, then we’re in trouble. The combats were scripted. It was more of a coreographed dance that a grade school child could perform.

Tanks:
Step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block…

Healers:
Queue wand… watch bars… heal… watch bars… heal… watch bars… step… heal

DPS:
Pew pew… step… Pew pew… step… Pew Pew… step.

Honestly, I have no desire to go back to that playstyle. I really don’t.

I can still remember the DPS meters deciding whether or not you were “good enough” to run a dungeon. Ugh.

You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.

Did I say one thing about GW2 combat? I was merely saying that WoW combat was no better. And since it uses the trinity as the overwhelming basis for it, the trinity is no better.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.

Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.

Raine.1394:

VOLKON.1290:

Raine.1394:

VOLKON.1290:

Raine.1394:

You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.

Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.

Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.

I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.

You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.

What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.

Sorry… I have to chime in on this one. If WoW is going to be our basis for what good team combat is supposed to be, then we’re in trouble. The combats were scripted. It was more of a coreographed dance that a grade school child could perform.

Tanks:
Step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block…

Healers:
Queue wand… watch bars… heal… watch bars… heal… watch bars… step… heal

DPS:
Pew pew… step… Pew pew… step… Pew Pew… step.

Honestly, I have no desire to go back to that playstyle. I really don’t.

I can still remember the DPS meters deciding whether or not you were “good enough” to run a dungeon. Ugh.

Mireles Lore.5942:

I find some of the ideas and arguments on these threads kind of silly.

The idea that anet should refund/upgrade tools or some how trolled molten alliance picks is just plain silly… It would be like being upset at Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft for making a next generation console and demanding a refund or a upgrade and calling them trolls for releasing it. Any rational person is just going to throw their head back and laugh at you.

The conjecture and speculation that they may set us on a path where tools will include other more higher valued items is just that, speculation and conjecture to exaggerate a weak pay to win argument. If they had plans or showed intent to do this to high value items, then you might have a point but we know nothing in terms what might come out.

This is pay to win? what are you winning exactly? The future chance at some items? Sorry we are entirely passed this point of cash shop items much less gems providing economic benefit. To call this pay to win and none of the other infinite gathering tools, salvage items, cash to gold conversions, and convince items is hypocritical.

Most people don’t realize the effect it will have on whatever item they choose to stick on these tools. If they had not dropped the price floor (merchant value) off the any of the items in question then I would be worried. Whatever item they stick on these tools is going to be produced (farmed) into worthlessness. So in reality the tool is really a economic loser over a reasonable period of cost recovery because it floods the market with supply faster than any other individual item being farmed with it.

I like this new tool because ideally people are throwing away gold and cash to make whatever tool item dirt cheap for the rest of us that are unwilling to pay for it.

People are just suffering from buyers remorse big time.

I fully agree. Well said.

Shasha.2548:

No, its convenience : you dont have to worry about that.
You have the same amount for the same nod, that is efficience.

Not if I have to stop what I’m doing and buy a new pick. The unlimited use pick has an OPS (ore per second) advantage, since I’d never have to stop to buy new picks. And there is also the fact that I never have to spend in game money to buy new tools. So it is more efficient over time.

So my point still stands. If this new pick is considered Pay to Win, then any unlimited use pick axe is Pay to Win.

Shasha.2548:

No, its convenience : you dont have to worry about that.

That is your opinion, which is where the “Pay to Win” definition is flawed. It is too open to opinion.

Shasha.2548:

Unlimited axe is P2W too.
Its accepted only cause they have no adventage with the efficience.

That can be argued by the fact that I have been out gathering before and forgot to check my tools. Eventually mine broke and I had to stop what I was doing to go buy a new one. The unlimited use tools are more efficient.

Chrispy.5641:

TChalla.7146:

Ayrilana.1396:

Waffler.1257:

Before people start arguing whether the pick is pay to win or not, you should probably define what “win” means. If “winning” gw2 means getting to max level, having best gear, and having the rarest items, then gw2 is already pay to win. Enter credit card, buy tons of gems, convert to gold, and buy legendary, buy materials to craft to lvl 80 in a few hours, buy full exotic armor, buy ascended mats to make ascended armor, buy all the super rare expensive skins to make your character look cool. These are the things most people are trying to accomplish as they spend countless hours playing the game, and you can accomplish them all easily by simply spending money.

You’re missing a key part of the definition on how that phrase originated. It was based on players spending real money to get items that put them at a significant advantage over other players who had no access to those items without spending real money as well.

The word I bolded in your definition is subjective. I don’t find it a significant advantage.

Here’s the question though. Does it give them a single advantage at all, no matter how big or small it is?

According to the supposed definition of Pay to Win, your question doesn’t mater. If you use that argument, simply having an unlimited use pick is Pay to Win, since you cannot buy one in game and must buy it with gems. Nobody can argue that any unlimited use pick axe (new or old) gives an advantage. The key word to the typically used definition of Pay to Win is “significant.”

Editied for clarity of thought.

Ayrilana.1396:

Waffler.1257:

Before people start arguing whether the pick is pay to win or not, you should probably define what “win” means. If “winning” gw2 means getting to max level, having best gear, and having the rarest items, then gw2 is already pay to win. Enter credit card, buy tons of gems, convert to gold, and buy legendary, buy materials to craft to lvl 80 in a few hours, buy full exotic armor, buy ascended mats to make ascended armor, buy all the super rare expensive skins to make your character look cool. These are the things most people are trying to accomplish as they spend countless hours playing the game, and you can accomplish them all easily by simply spending money.

You’re missing a key part of the definition on how that phrase originated. It was based on players spending real money to get items that put them at a significant advantage over other players who had no access to those items without spending real money as well.

The word I bolded in your definition is subjective. I don’t find it a significant advantage.

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

I said nothing about “vertical progression.” I said progression. Period. Could be vertical and could be horizontal. Doesn’t matter. I happen to find the new pick axe horizontal progression, since it in no way affects the power of my character.

It is statistically better than the old one, thus it is vertical progression and power creep.

Also called Mudflation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation

Something I hoped wouldn’t be present in GW2. But then came ascended. And now there’s mudflation in the gemstore as well.

As I said, I don’t find it vertical progression at all, since I have no need for the ability to mine sprockets. It doesn’t affect my characters or me at all. If someone else can mine the sprockets, good for them. I’ll be buying them if and when I need them.

If and when I buy the pick, it’ll be for the unlimited uses. I don’t much enjoy being out hunting and gathering, only to realize my tools broke. And just for the record, the only reason I don’t already have unlimited use tools is that I didn’t start playing until after they were taken off the market the last time.

I won’t get into the “mudflation” discussion. You can have that in another topic.

I said nothing about “vertical progression.” I said progression. Period. Could be vertical and could be horizontal. Doesn’t matter. I happen to find the new pick axe horizontal progression, since it in no way affects the power of my character.

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

I’m not going to explain why it IS in every game out there. I’ll let you figure it out on your own if you like.

You feel disgruntled. I think it’s misplaced. Whatever.

Every game?

Cool.

Is it in Dwarf Fortress? No? Good, your point is proven a lie, concession accepted.

There is no progress in Dwarf Fortress? Must be a GREAT game. shrug

I’ll correct my own post for you, since you couldn’t understand what I meant.

If and when that time comes, I might buy that one as well. I bought it for the convenience. Nothing more and nothing less. And I fully expect things to progress in the game. It’s part of every single MMORPG out there. So what?

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

If and when that time comes, I might buy that one as well. I bought it for the convenience. Nothing more and nothing less. And I fully expect things to progress in the game. It’s part of every single game out there. So what?

It’s NOT part of every single game out there, and in fact I refuse to play games that have such bad practices.

Guild Wars 1 had no vertical progression, GW2 was advertising with that as well.

Now we have vertical progression in the dratted gem shop. WTF?

I’m not going to explain why it IS in every game out there. I’ll let you figure it out on your own if you like.

You feel disgruntled. I think it’s misplaced. Whatever.

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

I didn’t say I’ve never purchased from the store. You can assume that if you like, but you’d be wrong.

I can show you a picture of my Salvage-O-Matic if you really like.

Cool. Just wait for Anet to release a new Salvage-O-Matic that has is exactly the same as the copper one, but has the added bonus of giving free extra goodies.

If and when that time comes, I might buy that one as well. I bought it for the convenience. Nothing more and nothing less. And I fully expect things to progress in the game. It’s part of every single game out there. So what?

I have to agree on the Norn. Having a human guardian standing next to a Norn, the Norn just looks like more of what you’d expect a toe-to-toe fighter to be.

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

Odd… I have never once felt forced to buy anything from the store. I do it because I want whatever item they have sold. If you feel forced, that is your issue.

If you dont purchase from the store, then you have no right to speak on this issue at all.

I didn’t say I’ve never purchased from the store. You can assume that if you like, but you’d be wrong.

I can show you a picture of my Salvage-O-Matic if you really like.

Shakkara.2641:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The Infinite Molten Pick still works. You don’t need to buy the new pick, you WANT to. Big difference.

Anet FORCES people because they release a new, more powerful version, making the old one useless.

Odd… I have never once felt forced to buy anything from the store. I do it because I want whatever item they have sold. If you feel forced, that is your issue.

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

Shakkara.2641:

They ruined the tools I paid for previously, so I hate the new ones.

Unless they give the old tools a bonus of some kind as well.

They did not ruin the ones you bought. You’re spreading a falsehood with this statement. The functionality of what you bought did not change at all.

They did. I can no longer equip the molten alliance pick. The watchwork pick now occupies the slot and there is ZERO reason to use the MA pick over the watchwork one. So the MA pick will now forever gather dust. Thus RUINED.

That is by choice. It is not required for you to buy the new one. There are other means of getting the sprockets. The old pick works fine as it was advertised originally.

Mystic.5934:

mesme.5028:

Mystic.5934:

I would never of bought this pick had I known a functionally better one was going to be released.

fair warning: I’ll be requesting this same refund again if you ever release a pick that is better than the watchwork pick.

I wonder if you would do the same with say a car rl :P.

I wouldn’t. There is no real-world equivalent to most in-game stuff because:

Shakkara.2641:

killahmayne.9518:

It isn’t like they changed the item that you bought, they just introduced a new pick.

Which made the previous one obsolete.

In a game that shouldn’t have planned obsolescence in the first place (Advertised as having no vertical progression!)

exactly! INFINITE; It was advertised as “this is the last pick you will ever need to buy.”

come to think of it, if the company promised me an infinite car that I would never have to repair or replace again, but then came out with a new infinite car that drove twice as fast, I would request an upgrade for the price difference. which is what I plan to do if they give me a refund. kinda illustrates why in-game and IRL aren’t usually comparable.

It is an “infinite use” pick. It still works as intended. You do not need to buy another pick.

Shakkara.2641:

They ruined the tools I paid for previously, so I hate the new ones.

Unless they give the old tools a bonus of some kind as well.

They did not ruin the ones you bought. You’re spreading a falsehood with this statement. The functionality of what you bought did not change at all.

Shakkara.2641:

Are you getting paid by Anet to spew these dumb apologist messages or what? You really make no sense whatsoever.

Are you paid by Blizzard to spew these dumb negative messages or what? You really make no sense whatsoever.

See what I did there?

Akari Storm.6809:

Ayrilana.1396:

Nobody is entitled to refunds. In the real world products change and have new features added or prices reduced. It would be chaos if those that bought older versions were entitled to discounts or trades. If you bought an iPad for $500 and then months later it was bundled with a free travel keyboard and a price of $399, you would not be entitled to a refund or swap.

Why on earth would you bring up the real world and try to make this seem like that. Real world is the real world. Game world is the game world.

With that thinking they could start selling upgraded versions of skills in the gem store. I bet your view would change then. They never said current skills were best in slot either.

The game world is a game world run by a company that lives in a real world and fills a real world service, our entertainment. You can’t separate these two when discussion decisions made by the real world company in a game world.

Your second part is a rather exaggerated argument. Of course people would be upset of upgraded versions of skills were being sold for real money. If it should ever come to that, I’ll leave the game without a second glance. But what they added yesterday is a far cry from that. The upgraded skills would be game-breaking, where the new pick is not game-breaking.

Chaialyna.1023:

I haven’t seen this clarified but might have missed it. Does the chance for sprockets replace the chance for bonus jewel stones that exists with the molten pick or is it in addition to it?

It has been tested and speculated (though not confirmed) that the sprocket takes the place of the chance of getting a second ore deposit, so there is now no chance of getting two pieces of ore from one strike.

This was copied and pasted from another post in the Black Lion Trading Forum:

Now that the pick has been out a little while more data is out on the mining pick. What the pick does is replace the extra ore you may have received from a swing with a sprocket.
So you may get:
-1x ore
-1x ore + 1x crafting material (gemstone)
-1x ore + 1x Sprocket
You can no longer get the 2x ore.
*mind you this is a small sample size

I’ve been watching this topic since it started, and after thinking about it while reading and keeping up with it all, I want to say the following:

1) There is no such thing as Pay to Win. Pay to Compete would be more accurate, since even if you do shell out the money for whatever, there will be someone else that shelled out money for the same thing, so you’ll still have competition with whomever also paid for the same boons. I’ve actually played a game where in order to be at a competitive level, you had to pay money. It was simply impossible to be competitive without doing so.

2) Unless I missed some post or advertisement somewhere, there has never been any mention of previous infinite gathering tools being forever the “best in slot” tools. In fact, I would say it would have been foolish for them to have ever said that. If anyone made that assumption, then it was a mistake on the buyer’s part… not ANet’s. I don’t believe anyone should get a refund at all. I could see being able to purchase an upgrade for their existing tools so they are on par with what is now there, but that’s about as far as I would deem necessary.

3) This item is hardly a game-breaking item. There are, in fact, other means of getting the sprockets,. You could:

a) Get a sprocket node from the LS event currently underway
b) Make friends with someone that has one of these nodes and use theirs
c) Buy the sprockets from the Trading Post
d) Get the pickaxe

Multiple ways of getting it. Not a broken mechanic.

I’ve played several MMORPGS and several other games, and one thing is consistent, regardless of the game. The forum goers often cry foul and talk about the "evil money-grubbing company that funds it, without taking into consideration one fundamental principle: They are in business to make money… all of them.

It would be naive to think that they would put the infinite tools up only once, alienating newer players who would not have the opportunity to buy the infinite tools. It would also be naive to assume that they would add the same tools over and over again without upgrading the tools at some point in time, since eventually, they wouldn’t make enough money on the tools to warrant posting them, since most of the people interested in the items would already have bought them (I’m making an assumption that the further along the game goes, the fewer new players enter the game, which is pretty consistent throughout all MMORPGs.

I don’t feel a disservice has been made with this item… at all.

brittitude.1983:

TChalla.7146:

Here’s something to think about. Has anything been said as to whether or not there wasn’t going to be another means of getting these sprockets in game?

I know that you can get them through normal game play now, and I know that method is temporary currently. But I haven’t heard them say there won’t be another means of getting these items after the temporary means is removed.

If there was a means in-game of getting these, would this whole argument have even been posted?

When you complete the current Origins of Madness meta, you get a home instance sprocket node to mine daily. It is available in game through normal game play.

And, yes, regardless of that fact, this thread has still been made. And goes on and on…

I haven’t done the meta, so I don’t have access to the node. Still, I’m wondering if they’re planning on adding another means of getting them. Again, I haven’t seen anything that says yes or no.

Here’s something to think about. Has anything been said as to whether or not there wasn’t going to be another means of getting these sprockets in game?

I know that you can get them through normal game play now, and I know that method is temporary currently. But I haven’t heard them say there won’t be another means of getting these items after the temporary means is removed.

If there was a means in-game of getting these, would this whole argument have even been posted?

Nodo.6907:

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then soon after they released a new version for $200 and it had 3g and more features so should I be entitled for a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

There is no difference between your example and what is going on with the picks. I’d love to see the look on a Best Buy employee’s face if someone went into the store and demanded that their TV be upgraded because a newer one came out a month after they bought it.

TChalla.7146:

Hmmm.. I’m going to have to side with the “this was a bad move” group on this one. It definitely pushes the boundaries of ‘Pay to Win.’ Those extra sprockets, while perhaps not all that important, will accumulate over time, and those that have the picks will have the ability to mine them for as long as they play the game. It can and will be a source of gold income for those players, and even if it’s a minimal amount of income, it’s still an issue.

And that says nothing for the fact that if these picks are a successful sale for ANet, what would stop them from doing it with something slightly more useful, over and over again, until the game does truly become pay to win?

I’m about to do a 180 on this one. So for those that believe nobody on the forums will admit they were wrong, I say “Haha!!”

I had forgotten the cardinal reason why I never believed that anything in the gem shop was “Pay to Win.” Since I can buy gems with in-game gold, I cannot make myself believe in Pay To Win.

Now I may just have to pick one of these up.

Hmmm.. I’m going to have to side with the “this was a bad move” group on this one. It definitely pushes the boundaries of ‘Pay to Win.’ Those extra sprockets, while perhaps not all that important, will accumulate over time, and those that have the picks will have the ability to mine them for as long as they play the game. It can and will be a source of gold income for those players, and even if it’s a minimal amount of income, it’s still an issue.

And that says nothing for the fact that if these picks are a successful sale for ANet, what would stop them from doing it with something slightly more useful, over and over again, until the game does truly become pay to win?

I’ve only been playing the game for a few months (82 days to be exact according to /age), so I still consider myself a new player. You may or may not agree with my being a new player. Newer player might be more fitting. At any rate…

I don’t see anything wrong with the Queensdale champion train. In fact, I personally thought it was kind of a cool thing, something I hadn’t seen before.

My first experience with it was when I was attempting to get the vista point in the bandit lair (can’t remember the name). I attempted it a couple of times but kept getting killed by the bandits in the area. However, after seeing the train make its way into the bandit station, I managed to get the vista point, since the bandits were all dead. Seemed pretty cool actually.

I was never put off by the train. As a new player, I didn’t run around with a group, so trying to kill any of the champions wasn’t even a forethought. In fact, I don’t know if any new player would attempt to kill the champions anyway… at least not without being part of a group. And since the train runs non-stop, a new player can tag along, be a part of a group for a short while, kill the champ and move on his/her merry way.

I think there is entirely too much of people worrying about what someone else is doing with their time in the game. People should probably pay more attention on their own fun rather than someone else’s.

I can tell you this…

If ascended gear was tradable, I’d have a character set up as just a crafter and nothing else. I enjoy crafting. When I played UO (before the AoS changes), that’s all I did. I’m still trying to find a decent MMORPG where crafting is a viable way to play.