Guild Wars 2

One word : Fire

Overall they were buff as much as most other profession. But pre-patch they already had access to a lot of fire, which was also buffed. So now, you have a profession as good defensively as it used to be, but able to now put a higher amount of damage.

Dahkeus.8243:

Thaddeus.4891:

It’s all nice buff for us, but it won’t give us back our place in the meta PvP. Engineer is a hard profession to master, it deserve to be better than what we are now.

Metabattle may not say that engis are “meta”, but they seem to be prevalent enough in EU tourneys to fit that definition.

Don’t really care if metabattle say it’s meta or great tbh, since the trait patch, it just can keep up with the new build and I don’t follow EU tourney. All I know is that Engineer is my favority profession to play and it’s a lot harder to do good thing with it now.

The worst is that OP wasn’t even unlucky with all that, he just made a super bad investment from the start. Buying Dreamthisle a couple of month ago was a terrible idea. Those skin were at their highest prices already. He just had to see the difference between sell and buy order. People were ready to pay like 500-600 gold, but the sell order were at between 1k and 3k. Usually, buy order follow the sell order. When there is such a big difference between them, it’s because most people aren’t ready to pay that amount of gold the seller are asking. Which mean, that even if Anet did put the skin back into the game, OP probably would had a very hard time selling his skin.

Add the fact that we know that Anet was about to put most BLTC skin in the game until the 3rd anniversary and you just have a terrible investment.

My list is :

1) Lack of condition removal in a period where condition are powerful.
2) Celestial amulet was just right for us, without it we just drop in efficiency
3) I find stability ok, but the number of trait that stop or return the first CC is just annoying and mitigate completly one of our strength.

I don’t agree with the lack of defensive trait. More condi removal yes, but otherwise I think we are good.

For the damage thing, again it get back to the celestial amulet. We are hybrid. Most of attack skill except rifle give both direct and condition damage damage.

Our roles isn’t a problem. It’s just that we are no longer good at our roles. We used to be a jack of all trade. We had different tool to tackle most challenge. We weren’t the best at anything, but we were able to do good thing in almost all situation.

For the blind. It’s a small problem IMO. Yes ok we’ll have a harder time against Mesmer and Elementalist, but that’s not why we are in such a bad place right now.

It’s all nice buff for us, but it won’t give us back our place in the meta PvP. Engineer is a hard profession to master, it deserve to be better than what we are now.

I don’t play Ele in WvW so I won’t speak about that. For PvE

Scholar > Legion/Strength/Pack/Rage

Ranger Rune isn’t working with mini anymore.

Legion/Strength/Pack/Rage all have around the same dps.

- Strength is better only for S/X and D/F build. For Staff is equal to the other
- Pack is only on the level in solo situation. In group, not worth it.

gin.7158:

Hmm.. so in non-ideal world where might and vuln are not capped and 5 man group situation in case.
The rule is strenght>frailty>air? is it correct?

Obviously this is for daytime dungeon or fractal only.

Yes and no.

Sigil of Air = About 1-2% personnal dps increase, but only single target.

Sigil of Frailty = About 3-5% group dps increase. But it can be zero if your group is good enough. Usually in pug this isn’t a problem.

Sigil of Strength = About 5-8% group dps increase. But it can be zero if your group is decent. Which happen relatively often.

So you are kind of right. But I would never use a sigil of strength because it will be useless the majority of the time.

I would say use Force/Frailty. It’s the best bet IMO.

SirDrygan.1823:

Thaddeus.4891:

3) Gear check? This game is one of the less gear based mmo out there. Stacking on top of each other is a bad pug tactic. It’s easier but less efficient. Pug like it, good player don’t.

Stop lying. Many LFG have gear checks and stacking is rampant. Unless you have someone put an LFG “No stacking, no skipping”
I have to do my own LFG for dungeons. Because most are “zerker level 80 AP 10k/5k EXP Ping gear”
Not all are like that, but the majority are.

I know there are non stacking ways to do dungeons, but most good players do with their close knit in-game friends, you won’t see them doing LFG.

I’m not lying.

1) Stacking. What do you mean by that. Do you mean stacking on top on each other, on a corner, wall or not. Or do you just mean being all withing 300 range to be in melee and share boons. For me the first is stacking, the second is just keeping close to your team. Yup stacking is frequent in pug, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a good tactics. It’s an easy tactic that bad player use and that a lot of people that don’t need it keep doing it because it the way they always did it. That’s on FGS fiery rush fault. It was the best way for long enough that people have a hard time changing their habit. I’m an elistist jerk and I push every pug to stack only in a very few places where it’s a good strategy. I hate when ppl stack in a corner for alpha in CoE or thing like that.

2) I never ask for Zerker or Meta in my LFG. And I maybe joined 3-4 dungeon path in the last 3 years where the group actually ask me to ping my gear. Let’s see right now what is on the LFG .

AC :
All path, 80s
P2 (level 38) anyone welcome
AC P3 lvl80
P3 : all welcome: exp preferred

CM:
Story
P1, lv80, know the path, at barn

TA
F/u exp players

SE
P1/P3
P3 Speed 80s only

CoF
No LFG at this moment

HotW
P3 80s exp plz

CoE
P1 all welcom
Story

I didn’t list Arah because it’s mostly seller, story and ask for Tarr helper.

Weird. ZERO Zerker
ZERO ping gear
ZERO AP requirement

I’m not saying that they don’t exist because they do. But saying that the majority of them are like that is completly bullkitten.

Ok It took me like 5min until now to write. I have a TA Up/forward. 80s berserker’s LFG that just came up. And a p3 zerker, ping chest piece. CoF p1 exp 80s only zerker. CoE experienced zerk pls, all path.

So in the last 5min. 4 LFG was about zerker or ping gear on the 30 last LFG. That’s not a lot. That’s not the majority.

Level 80, experienced is pretty common. Zerker you can see it on a regular basis. AP and ping gear is SUPER rare.

bladex.9502:

Neyensb.2581:

Sigil of strength I don’t see often on thiefs. Phalanx warriors do use it

Using Sigil of Strength on warrior is completely useless, since you’re wasting a damage modifier that you could have used in place of that Sigil of Strength.
You can easily maintain 25 might by just using strength runes, and if you’re having trouble with that you can just use dumplings as food, but I would NEVER use a Sigil of Strength as a phalanx warrior

Wrong. Alone without sigil and food you can’t maintain 25 stack of might. Even with food you can’t. The group usually have at least 1 other source of might to maintain the 25. Remember that we lost 30% boon duration with the patch. PS Warrior might last less longer than it used to do. Strengh on a PS warrior isn’t a waste. Remember that Dumpling is in limited supply and will continue to rise in price until february next year. So someone that play that, but don’t want to pay the food could use a sigil of strength. Not the best, but a viable option still.

Genlog.4983:

lets say it different my English is not that great but i try my best

problem what i see is stacking all together that there can be a mistake in your team
with that all can die in just 1 blow

that’s why i play more in the back row if something go wrong i can mabye get them up again its a 50% change but its worth the shot ??

also am a ranger and always have 1 tank pet with me i can send him to to get them up fast or use his taunt skill if it works on bosses ?? never try it but ok if i can get my tank pet to argo the boss i can get my team up

i wanna play it on the save side then try all stand together and hoping we kill the mops or boss or they kill us all -.-

so for me i think for a party 3 close range and 2 long range for back up ??
and if those spirit mops i can use have a very long range i can help my party to with buffs and keep my spirits save

We have a 200-300 range to move 360 degre around the mobs. There is plenty of room. I guess they could make that large a bit like 300-400 range. But what’s the point of making that large, so that the ranger can camp longbow 2 kilometer away from his team playing alone. Open World is a good place to play alone. Group content is for a team.

1) All crafting used to be to 400. They added 500 latter for some. We don,t know yet what will they do with Jewler and Chef. It’s not unfinished, just still evolving

2) How is that unfinished? They just put more GS because it’s a popular weapon. Anet kind of like gs a lot.

3) Gear check? This game is one of the less gear based mmo out there. Stacking on top of each other is a bad pug tactic. It’s easier but less efficient. Pug like it, good player don’t.

4) The trading post is use to remove gold and maintain the inflation. Make no sense to allow trading between players. That would hurt the game, even if some people would like just to no pay the tax. What they don’t get is that this way, their gold would value less. They would not be richer.

5) If the map is full what do you want Anet to do? Kick other ppl off the map to let ppl of your guild in? In normal situation this won’t happen, but when you do something popular and in limited time on one map, well yes of course the map you are in will full quickly.

Genlog.4983:

and that is the problem off this system you need to stay close to help ea other out the buffs and skill don’t have a long range like many other mmorpg have

so you cant not really run free around because your buff skills don’t reach that far sadly

That’s not a problem. That’s just a system that you don’t like. Plenty of people like it. I included. There is a bunch of stuff that the game could improve, that’s not one of them

Pandaman.4758:

Thaddeus.4891:

Right now you get spirit shards when you level up after level 80. I just tested it.

You might have received one from a drop or bag and not noticed it while checking your wallet between levels, but if it did give you one for leveling up then it’s inconsistent, because I know I’m definitely not getting any for leveling up.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Muusic.2967:

a slap in the face.

This over used line seriously needs to be added to GW2 forum Bingo/drinking game.

Do you want to dive straight into raging alcoholism?

Well I tested it with a tome of knowledge. No drop, just the level up. Or it only work with tome of knowlege for some reason.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Thaddeus.4891:

Right now you get spirit shards when you level up after level 80. I just tested it.

You don’t get Spirit Shards (according to what was announced – I haven’t really kept track, having an over-abundance), but it’s just temporary until HoT releases and the ‘XP’ bar changes to track Mastery progress.

That was my opinion. But that’s not what is happening in the game right now. I just tested it like 5min ago.

It cost 60 pts to unlock a core specialisation. So you can pretty much guess that it will cost that for the elite too. For skill, if we base it on current skills it should cost use between 18 and 31pts to unlock all 6 new skills. So with 91 pts you should be ok with the full elite specialisation.

Right now you get spirit shards when you level up after level 80. I just tested it.

obal.3218:

The first though I had when I saw the numbers was that people are going to get kicked anyways and it gave me a laugh. You mine as well kick zerk hammer guards or zerk guards that are still clinging to sword too since they will be as much of a loss or more!

And guardian that don’t do the right rotation, and that don’t have food/utilities, or don’t have ascended, etc, etc

Try hard always focus on gear and forget everything else, even if that everything else is as important.

Yep. Everybody is narrow minded, that’s why we all disagree with you.

I go into that phase from time to time. I stop playing the game and do something else. A couple of month later I get back into the game and have fun. It usually happen once or two per years for me. Same with most of my friends.

Metalmacher.6508:

Thanks, friend ??? Great explanation.

Hmm… So only 3 at a time… So basically, each character now has 10 possible combinations…? Instead of the freedom of making your own personal build, you just pick out of 10? Seems there’s no point in exchanging builds, just look at the forums which of the 10 is the best….
On the other hand… More trait points, so that’s kinda cool. Hmmm…

I think I’ll start a new character, see how I manage with this new system. Never played a guardian, so ought to be interesting

Like other already said. No really. It’s true that the new system have less combinaison possible. But a lot of stuff were combine. For exemple. Before you could take a trait that give healing to your symbol, another one that make your symbol longer and another one that make them larger. Now all of that is combine into 1 single trait. They also removed a lot of useless trait.

The new system isn’t perfect. I hate the fact that you can’t put only 2 pts into one line or that you can take 2 adept trait. But at the same time I love that you don’t have stats from trait line and how they reworked individual trait, which are a lot better now.

I guess we can’t have everything. Overall the new system is better IMO.

If we can vote for the most useless post ever I vote for this one. Crying about that. Jesus.

Genlog.4983:

i find the stack system to buff every1 just plain stupid
all stand here and stack -.- its not how i play am a free roamer i need to move around

my bear hold Argo and am circle around the enemy and dodge his attacks and so on
sometimes when am in the game i do miss the old trinity system

i mostly play full healer and i was free to walk around and heal my party
as long the tanker hold the boss

mabye a idee to make some pets super tank pets that hold the argo for the party
so what i read is that both ranger and necro problem is there pets and minions

most other players don’t like them i have a pet but i must but him on guard -.-
and for rangers there pet is there life saver

and i think Anet need to rework on them make them more useful in dungeons
so that my pet get the credit and not the hate

that’s what i think atm

When you say stacking are you talking about everybody without 300 range or corner stacking one on top of the other? Because the latter is just a bad strategy that pugs continue to use, but in reality there is like 5-10 spot in dungeon/fractal where this is the best thing to do. But pugs continue to use it because they don’t know better.

If it’s the first one. I don’t know what to tell you. You need to stay close to your ally to support each other and fight with a melee weapon.

It’s probably about the skill of individual players and their adaptability. Guardian, Theif and Elementalist are the best to keep the team alive and well, but only if they know what they are doing.

- Elementalist that Deep Freeze a boss and nobody waste CC at the start will mean a couple of second when you never get hit.
- Guardian can do a great job with blind/aegis, but if he use them back to back or on small attack, they aren’t worth as much.
- Blind is important too. Painbow list them pretty clearly.
- Stability can help for some specific fight to make sure nobody is interrupt while putting blind for exemple.
- Max might/vul/fury for dps make sure the fight is short enough so that your defensive utilities don’t run out.
- Taking Icebow on the group is something that pugs usually don’t do but help a lot for the dps (and Deep Freeze).

Genlog.4983:

so far i see the bezerk party depend on 1 other with out it die die very fast
1 mistake and wola dead party

so is it not better to have a class that is a bit tanky ??
for save keeping ?

and with the good runes that ress you 20% faster to and give more health back
i say its a must in a party also rangers have a other thing search and rescue it tricker auto now with the good traits

so i stile don’t get it why the hate to none zerk builds ??
also to rangers and necros ??

so i hope sooner or later we rangers and necros get more love

Bad group can die with one mistake, but they usually rally anyway. Good group use support to keep them at high hp and trigger scholar runes and maximize their dps uptime. And support doesn’t need gear (it come from skills and traits). No hate toward Zerker, Assassin, Rampager and Sinister, just that some are better in certain build and situation. For the rest of the stats, they are usually selfish and view as training wheel. You sacrifice DPS for your self surviability. Group support does the same thing, but since it’s for the whole team, it easier for people to accept it. Healing would also go into that category, but it’s so weak that, well.

The hate on ranger is just plain stupidity on both part. Ranger and Necromancer can screw up a lot of stuff with fear, minion, pets, cc and most bad player use them like their life depend on it, making sure to bother everybody in the party. But at the same time, Ranger is a super powerful profession for more than a year and ppl continue to hate them thinking that it’s a bad profession.

Necro well. It’s necro and it need some love for Anet lol. Maybe Reaper will help.

True. But tbh, the difference in dps isn’t that high depending on the situation. For fight like Lupi, it’s only 2-3%, but for the majority it’s more like 16-8% depending on the situation & build.

In dungeon like SE where you need 2 utilities, it doesn’t really make sense or CoE where it’s all about small boss. But for dungeon like TA and Arah where you have a lot of trash mobs and large bosses, condi guardian is pretty good, even better than power guardian.

Anyway. It’s just nice that we have now more good option for dungeon.

imperial.4962:

What about for PvE? Could someone make a decent dmg sword/torch build using, let’s say, knight’s/ rampager’s gear?

Torch is the best offhand for PvE now. A sword/torch build? You can use the meta and replace Mace for Sword, but you still need to swap between GS and Sw/T because Sword on itself isn’t good enough.

Knight bring nothing to the build. It just sacrifice dps for personal surviability. If you need that, go ahead, but each piece will decrease your efficiency. Rampager is a condition gear, hybrid don’t seem to be a good idea now, since base condition was nerfed. I didn’t test it, but ramager seem to be a terrible idea since you have zero or almost zero condition on crits with a condi Guards. It’s all skills or on hits, not a crits. So precision won’t be as usefull as engineer for exemple. So sinister will be better than rampager.

Starlinvg. OP is talking about a PvE build.

What do you want us to tell you OP. You sacrificed DPS and Support for personal surviability. You’ll never get good feed back from that in here. But here my opinion

- Rune of Stength : You’ll pay alot for a small return. Yep you can probably maintain 10-15 might in the right situation, but you sacrifice a lot to be able to do that. Guardian is just no good to grant might to his team.

- Protection : If you want more surviability and like protection, why don’t you use a Zeal/Radiance/Honor Hammer build. It’s 3-4% less dps than the meta, while keeping perma protection on the whole team. More support and more dps than your current build. If you want to give more support, then you can try a Zeal/Honor/Virtue Hammer build.

- Indomitable Courage : Do you really need the stability? Stability is a really niche boons in PvE. Really good in the right situation, but pretty useless most of the time. Battle Presence would be a better support for your team, especially with Absolute Resolution.

We don’t see much of them because GS was buff and Hammer was nerfed.

1) Support was always a really important part of dungeons, right with DPS. And that’s how most meta are build toward today. Things like the FGS and waypoints in combat were limiting the importance of support, but those two are gone for a long time now. Support is usually what differentiate a good to a bad group. Good group make excellent use of both offensive and defensive support. They make sure they have vulneriability, might, fury, reflect, blind, aegis, stability, etc at the right time. Bad group, not so much.

2) They are smooth, smoother with a good group, but it’s 3 years old content and we learned them by heart. Fractal 50 is a little bit higher in term of difficulty, otherwise we now solo/duo most dungeon if we want some challenge. We are craving for some challenging content and they announced that it will come with the expansion, but no info on that yet.

3) No, but we have hope for the expansion.

4) You always want 1 warrior because he’s the best buff kitten of the game. If the content need some defensive utility bring a guardian, if the content need some stealth/blind bring a thief. The rest should be elementalist. General purpose group would be 1 Warrior, 1 Thief, 1 Guardian and 2 Elementalist. But Ranger, Mesmer or Engineer can all replace 1 of those profession. Ranger is decent to buff DPS, Mesmer with portal can do some nice trick in the right hands and Engineer is the jack of all trades. Necromancer is the only one that doesn’t really have a good position in dungeon.
5) We just had a big update that changed how condition and trait work. We have people left and right saying that condition build are good or still bad in dungeon. But as more people do testing and result that we can trust we’ll see what will happen with condition in dungeon. In my opinion in the next couple of months we’ll see a lot more condition build becoming meta or at least very good alternative to more traditional power meta.

Exos.3472:

A warrior can AA on greatsword and dish out acceptable damage,

LOL thanks for the laught

Marthkus.4615:

I like the idea that if your party kicks someone from an instance you can’t fill that slot.

Another idea is that if you leave your party from an instance, your party can fill that slot but you are blocked from the path for a day. If you leave 3 paths in a day you would then be blocked from dungeons/fractals for a day.

Zerk only meta 8K+ AP groups could still set up their groups with lots of vetting, but the toxic behavior would be curbed.

Wow that’s a terrible idea.

- My friend need to go and disconnect without leaving the party. I don’t mind finishing the path with 4 ppl, but not everybody. I can’t even give the path to a guildmate? And don’t tell me that never happen, because I got a couple friend that never quit the party before disconnecting.

- I need to go. Eat dinner or something. I quit the path, but now I can do it later that day? What if i’m in a guildgroup and I leave my place to another guildmate?

- I got a pug, but he go afk in CoF path 1 or somwthing like that. I want to kick him and take another player to finish the part where we need 5 men.

A lot of situation where this will hurt normal player just because you are kitten by speed runner and meta guys.

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

Yeah so other than the character attacks and add hominem, my question still stands. Do dungeons need to be as hard as they are? If so, why?

What is the intention to make dungeons this difficult to new players?

Dungeon are super easy. We want more challenging and hard content, not easier. New players already have open world content even easier to acclimate themselves.

But I agree that it could be better thoe for new players. A better LFG would help. But dungeon should be all 80 in IMO.

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

I actually take the time to explain to people and ensure the dungeon goes through to completion. Your assumption is wrong. But as veteran mmo player I can recognize barrier the dungeons represent. If Anet plans on lowering the barrier to entry with the expansion, with the current dungeon community that wants Max level characters (I’m often the only one with patience to run noobs) how are new players going to do dungeons? Do they need to be so difficult?

So you are the ONE only that run with noobs. Is that right? Most of us like to explain stuff to new player, we are doing it for the last 3 years and some of us even formed guild specifically for that. Now a lot of use are getting tired of it and we limit it to our guildmates. I take care of a lot of new player in my guild, showing them the dungeons, build, fractals, etc. So what are you telling me that I’m a bad person, I’m toxic to the community and push people to quit the game because I stopped explaining over chat dungeon to new players after 3 years and only take care of my guildmates?

Thanks, but my conscience is intact like most of the others here.

It’s meta mostly because one team had one in the first tournament after the patch.

Why? Of the the brawler build only one is still meta(ele) and thief, mesmer and warrior are now all about burst. So a limited amount of build to hold points and a high burst capability that block, aegis, invulnerability, etc can mitigate and you can see why Guardian bunker is making a come back. It’s just work relatively well into the new competitive scene. Will it last? I’m not sure because we probably gonna see more and more condition damage build, which gonna destroy the guardian bunker.

data.4093:

Nobody said anything was wrong, don’t get so offended. I’m pointing out that his perceived damage loss doesn’t really exist. Bosses don’t even last 30 seconds in pug runs, you can get downed and the boss will die before you do.

In half decent pugs yes. But the moment I don’t ask experienced, zerker or meta in the LFG you have a big chance to get a party with low dps.

Condition damage is zero on that build.

He asked what was his dps lost and we responded. What’s wrong with that. What we can’t even talk about DPS numbers because it can offend ppl that don’t like the meta?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAS5flsAhShYvQwQIQQEHxDldDehHtGAPQ9i7h/bLA-TBBXgAA7PK/C1N0r+zjSQA-e

This kind of build is the second bets dps setup for guardian with 3-6% less dps than the meta. Like most hammer build it give good protection uptime, symbol heals, more might and vulnerability than the meta, which is better than the meta in my opinion for pugs which usually don’t max out might and vulnerability. It’s less personnal dps, but more group support.

You can even go further and switching Radiance for Virtue and take UC, Absolute Resolution and Battle Presence for a great hp regen for the whole team at the cost of a bit more dps. That way you also have an easier access to MoC. But like I said you start to cleave you dps a little bit more and lose the F1 Blind and Vulnerability. I played it a bit and it’s as far as I would want to do in term of decreasing my dps. In group with bad dps, going back to a more meta build is significant since you are a bigger part of the dps.

Ya. You would have to make the Empower first and then the ele stack might and see what happen.

No you tested when the ele stack might first and then the guardian stack shorter might on top of it. I’m talking about the other way around.

Like Fines Juliverine said.Comparing GS + M/T with Zeal/Radiance/Virtue to GS + Sw/T with Zeal/Radiance/Virtue is around a 10% dps difference. Wich is just fine, even in dungeon. But you don’t use GS + Sw/T you use Sw/T and Sc/F.

Hard to estimate like that, but you probably lose another 10% compare to GS + M/T so in total you are near 20% less dps if you use Zeal/Radiance/Virtue.

Like in your exemple, the power is green because of your signet.

The problem is when short boon are first and they limit the longer boon. Like if a guardian empower and then a ele stack 18 stack. The group will quicly drop to 13 stack and not 18.

Not really a great build for PvE, but it’s decent. Valor and AH are pure surviability with only some minor support in there.

And yes there is reason to not take Honor in some build. Taking Virtue over Honor is around 7% more DPS are you have a quick access to MoC, while Absolute Resolution+Battle Presence is a powerful support trait combinaison.

Not saying that Honor isn’t a good trait line. But saying that there is ‘’no reason’’ to not taking it, is not really true.

Question? Why sword? It’s not a horrible choice, but Mace both have better DPS, Support and Surviability. The only thing sword have going for it is a blind that decrease your dps when you use is and a barely useful reflect on a profession that excel a that with utilities.

I like the remove stacking case. Do people complain about that a bit

That ship is sailed already. Guardian are too dependent on field anyway. You want to keep symbol uptime up as much as possible with either a GS + M/T or a Hammer build. Anyway, since PS warrior pretty much replaced all stacking ele, it doesn’t matter as much.

Oh no your right on that. You should never run Rune of Strength on a guardian. That’s a waste.

The will introduce the break bar in the expansion. That system will be better for CC in PvE. We’ll see if it will be enough.

So I wasn’t clear enough? ‘’with rune only’‘. Didn’t read that?

Healing Power isn’t needed. Active Defense Support is better than Healing.

But my point, is that healing power is still a pretty good way to go. People look at a cleric guy and laugh out loud, kick and insult him in a pug group without any requirement in the lfg, and 5sec latter they down and rally 8 times.

The point was, they did a fractal 50 with 3 peoples and 1 cleric guardian in 30min. 3 good zerkers can do it in 20-25min. But most pugs of 5 will do it in 45-60min. But people still hate on anything that isn’t meta. Yes it’s optimal, but the vast majority of people playing meta ain’t optimal either. They don’t do the right rotation, don’t have the right buffs, down and rally, use FGS old stacking tactics, etc. But they still judge builds and profession like they are the anti-christ.