Guild Wars 2

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

xiv.7136:

Everything you wrote is wrong and ridiculous.

Your videos with the clicking and the regen ticks of 350 don’t prove anything.

Guardian outheals a warrior easily, and that’s even before the lovely protection, aegis, elite etc figure in. Even an ele does more healing than this.

Please do some proper research, you’re just wrong.

It’s what I wanted to say but I feared infractions so thank you for reading my mind lol.

Look Ele or Guardian heal speced is going to out heal this ele alone S/D is the strongest heal in the game if we are talking strictly healing (No aegis Protection ETC) with at least 15 trait points in water speced for 30 arcane.

That being said a ranger using http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring and a thief using http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cluster_Bomb is the best burst healing your goign to get but given its field any one blasting it is goign to be causing the heal effect also.

If we break it down for ele alone
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Ripple 10 sec cd applies to group
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evasive_Arcana ’s http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave 10 sec cd applies to group 40 sec cd regular versionof this skill does not share the cd
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Attunement 10 sec cd for the regen last 5 secs applies to group also applies protection when attuning to earth
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Water_Trident 20 sec 180 radius but 900 range
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Mist stacks with regen

All the “hard” heals scale 100% with healing power

I cant imagine anyone who plays thief in PvE considering it OP.

The simple answer to your last question is no. The other thing is it has been like that since the first time I ever used it so it has nothing to do with the update. Skills that do damage only break stealth if they hit.

Some people are genius of dodging and not getting one shot with DD that being said its the minority. Read the post and you’ll see. Look I will break it to you no bull thief PvE is lackluster but not useless. D/P S/P and S/D all do well in dungeons as does PP and shortbow. DD http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twisting_Fangs spam with condition damage and also work well and P/D can be good.

If you really want to be the top burst DPS go warrior with Axe and GS you’ll have more sustained dps, burst dps, and survival time than most thief builds.

That being said I love S/D thief and the only class I play more is DD ele.

Every class is worth playing if you find a build you enjoy. Sorry for the generic answer but it is the truth.

I don’t disagree that running with crit power over healing has its bonuses but the trade off is weak to me on this class. The fact that our big hitting skills have suck an long cool downs and that our healing goes to the group as well makes crit damage a near non factor to me. When I’m on thief it plays a part or ranger to a degree I spec for crit but on ele I consider a few things.

First off I have might I usually get from 19-25 stacks so my DPS over the long run wont lag. The other is that my personal dps does factor in but imho I am never going to burst the way o can on other classes which means often and consistently. Comparing what we can do with 100 blades, Back Stab, what used to be grenade engi, shatter mesmer, or even auto attack axe warrior there really isn’t a comparison. Crit damage for us will never factor the same way but that doesn’t mean its useless its just not as useful and the margins are large. Old mmo rules still apply if you can hit your burst often go crit if you hit slow but big go power. Might covers power and a good chunk of condition damage for that matter and we do apply conditions often enough to note it.

TL:DR You would likely get much more bang for your buck with more power instead.

Healing scales pretty bad across the board however you will see major gaps between someone running lots of healing power vs very little. Honestly its in the margins. We heal so often and so big that running healing power some times feel stupid. The heals heal for a lot as it is. So in sPvP I run with very little to 0. In PvE and dungeons since we work as a group our healing power applies to everyone. Now there is no dedicated healing but between all the ambient healing we do and the buffs we pass out we can help keep a group alive in some tough situations.

TL:DR we heal well and our healing scales well so its not that bad a stat.

As far as crit chance goes. If its for procs like vigor on crit. Even running with ) extra crit chance we actually hit often. So even with my 11% crit chance build i have perma vigor and I don’t have the cantrips trait. Fury as you all said covers the gap.

I don’t blame you running crit I tried and failed with this class and found much more happiness being tankier due to the fact I could see a big enough increase in damage you justify the loss in survivability.

The thing that helped my DPS the most was clipping between fire and earth as quickly as I possibly could to keep stacks up.

Besides all this so many of us have so much gear you can just carry an extra set with crit damage if you like for easy content. Either way imho the might stacks to the party will play the biggest factor in the speed you clear content. As long as you are comfortable with what you run and you are having fun. Its very hard to build ele bad.

For me its the lack of AoE and overall the loss of auras though I like scepters design.

katniss.6735:

Why don’t they nerf the teleport range on thieves now? Because there’s no way to catch these guys at all now. It’s like a 1000 yard radius in any direction they’ll just randomly be at. Plus, stealth. Plus they get a huge burst. The more targets a thief has to ping-pong off of, the more OP the porting becomes. I just leave when I see some guy doing this.

The return is bugged to 3600m on S/D the port to a target is 600m it cost 5 init total of the base pool of 12. S/D by nature has weak burst unless you go DD as your off set but then you have 0 range. Stealth hides you that’s about it. Now considering my mains are DD ele and S/D thief and I wvw all the time let me break it down for you.

S/D even full glass isn’t going to burst a half decent ele running /D (this is due to S/D relatively weak burst since most the dps comes from auto attack chain #3 and the animation are relatively slow). Its not going to happen. On top of that almost all DD ele skills are aoe so you hit thiefs most the time even if you don’t see them. Before RTL got nerfed I routinely out run / hid from DD and SD ele and I usually just used the short bow. If your talking about http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep the CD is long and its inline with many other ports with shorter ranges and shorter cool downs to match (more info: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Teleport).

Ele vs thief should be if both players are any good a war of attrition due the the mobility and survivability of both classes.

Side note all swords cross class have a 600m or so gap closer or mobility skill. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Strike untargeted does not teleport you but leaves the return circle.

As far as the rtl nerf get over it. I am still faster than the classes/builds I was faster than before and stil slower than the classes/builds I was slower than before.

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

Here is what D/D Eles currently are… RTL just made 1vs4 a bit harder.

Immobilize and burst. If you don’t get beat in a 4 v1 you might be great but whoever you fought was bad.

Also we don’t have access to consistent retaliation and none through the class itself. I concede the rest though stability is relatively sporadic across the board.

I kind of don’t get what the O kitten aying. I have never seen an ele kicked or been kicked myself while on ele for any reason. The vast majority of kicking out side of CoF path 1 is for dying too much or being afk too long.

the problem with cookie cutter ele (admittedly 4 months in still in the category myself with some variations) is that between the healing the might stacks and cleansing when played right its powerful asset to most teams. However, I have never seen a team expect this all this.

The honest truth is unless they ask for your gear and spec the only thing anyone really knows is how often you get downed and what weapon your’e using.

Play what you like and play your best to the best of your ability that is all that is required.

Just taken Blackgate

Blacksarevok.8104:

Big problem I have with my thief is the combination of initiative and lack of cooldowns. Basically you are encouraged to spam a really powerful ability (BS, HS, Unload, etc), and ignore others due to lack of cd’s. And if you choose not to spam those powerful abilities, your are giving up far too much damage output when compared to a class that uses CD’s. I know this is part of what gives the thief it’s identity, but it’s also part of why we are weaker than other classes in PVE.

You are mistaken. Only DPS thieves do that and never the less in most runs outside CoF its foolish to spam and leave yourself with no initiative to survive. If you get caught up in the DPS race then frankly for PvE roll a warrior as its the smarter bet. If you want to be useful in other ways then thief is not a bad option. Not every dungeon get a huge advantage from pure DPS builds.

Get over it even at 1200 range it would be fine. You are not going to catch a thief who does this then stealth’s unless you have allies so get over it. 1200 range 3600 range doesn’t matter You are not going to catch them even if you know the range is limited get over it already.

First off some thief builds are tanky (thinking of a couple of DB and PW builds that do well). That being said heavy armor classes still do it easier and usually better.

Quickhit.3620:

PS: Infusion of Shadow fits better instead of the ally healing you have at shadow art.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Protector heals yourself also. If your’e optimizing healing then yeah you should take it.

I don’t necessarily disagree but you have to put things in context. Overall we can do fine in PvE but DPS minded players will feel squishy next to a warrior. The things we are good at are rezing and keeping a party from wipes. This is not useless. Some builds like S/D might not tank well but they do good in Survivability much like S/P pistol whip and D/P black powder/blind spam.

As far as healing goes 30 in shadow arts is still there and if you really are worried about getting heals foods like peach pies will give you heals continuously and have not been nerfed.

But I do agree compared to warrior it does seem a great deal imbalanced.

What we do have over warrior is
-better condition removal
-more escape tools
-more evades
-better stun breakers
-We actually have better healing overall if speced for it.

BTW spy kits got nerfed they have a 60 second cd so….

Edit:

Forgot 2 things. We have the best blast finisher in the game, and near permanent weakness and poison through dagger and Lotus Poison, or Shortbow all by it self no traits.

Does it really matter?

The same classes/builds that could out run us before can now and the ones that were slower are still slower.

Blackgate US currently uncontested

We talking champ or vet?

any uncontested US?

Any US servers open?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Also this is an MMO, it is the most solo friendly MMO in existence. It is the only MMO I know of that you can get the highest tier gear from doing only solo activities.

Actually you could do this in DCUO it would just take a while. A very long while.

Keeping this short.

Knowing the content is pretty much the big hurdle in this game. If you know the content you know what ot expect when to dodge etc.

As far as builds go what Quarantine said is correct. Thief is inherently squishy and bring a short bow. However 3 build usually stand out for melee Sword/Dagger Dagger/Pistol and Sword/Pistol/

1. S/D → Skill number 2 is a stun breaker with a ridiculous range that teleports removes a condition (happens to be the only weapon set stun breaker). The rest of the skills have their uses too so look it up.

2. D/P → Black powder + heartseeker equals stealth. Black powder + melee = blind tanking. Not much more to say look it up.

3. S/P → Spam 3 (which is pistol whip) Evades and does serious dps at the same time.

Psybunny.8906:

PvE rewards have no place in spvp.

This. Honestly it would kitten most PvE players off because you would eventually get the “Well I don’t PvP argument going” and people who do both would get twice as much. Either way its PvE loot so leave it alone. If you want it get your kitten out of PvP and PvE but considering many hardcore pvpers wont PvE you don’t deserve them in the first place and that’s about it.

The posters above are right but let me simplify it more.

In WvW, sPvP, PvE open world /solo do what ever you want none of us cares. We won’t be on your back following you around telling you kitten. It’s your game time do with it as you please.

In tPvP and Dungeons if you pull this and other players realize in tougher content there is a good chance your’e going to get kicked. And if they do they are in the right. Eles who don’t attunement swap at all are usually dead weight.

Now realize all the best gear stat wise can be gotten solo and dungeon tokens are account bound not soul.

Kodiak.3281:

TheGuy.3568:

Would you guys relax. You have literally taken a talk pertaining to Spvp and applied it to PvE. Now until they nerf us in PvE I see no point in the chicken little skyfall routine. In Spvp lets be honest it has to be nerfed. If you have played tournament with 3 DD bunker eles you’ll get what the problem is and there isn’t that much room for complaint on out side anymore.

The ways they discussed nerfing us was that some of our healing support when piled on top of each other is too effective. A very specific example was permanent Fury which is a thing for us. Another was the way all our tiny heals, regens, and condition removals all stacked up together giving us very strong defense.

It’s extremely unlikely, or at least they haven’t so far, take the time to separate said nerfs from PvE/sPVP/WvW because they want the game play feel to be “consistent” (as if sPvP felt at all like PvE or WvW even in the slightest).

So yea, it all kinda pertains.

And the next thing they said after that was that they will split skills if necessary so your point was?

BTW “unlikely” lol. Sorry for the rude tone but like I said be patient they do split skills so here are some skills that have been split in the past (notice our heal)
Skills

Healing Ripple: This skill’s scaling with healing power has been reduced by 50% in PvP only

Grenade: This skill’s damage has been decreased by 10% in PvP only.
Shrapnel Grenade: This skill’s damage has been decreased by 15% in PvP only.
Freeze Grenade: This skill’s damage has been decreased by 10% in PvP only.
Grenade Barrage: This skill’s damage has been decreased by 10% in PvP only.

Shield of Judgment: This skill’s protection duration has been set to 3 seconds from 5 seconds in PvP only.

Selfless Daring: This trait had an efficiency with healing power that was reserved for healing skills only and has now been reduced to its intended level. Heal scaling has been reduced by 50% in PvP only.

Cloak and Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 33% in PvP only.

Confusion
PvE and WvW: 10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack
sPvP: 65 + (0.075 * Condition Damage) per stack

“Save Yourselves!”
PvE and WvW 10 second duration
sPvP 5 second duration

Tactical Strike
Daze: 2 seconds PvE and WvW 1.5 seconds in sPvP

I am not going further I have proved my point. Relax and adapt to what happens. The sky is not falling chicken littles but it may rain a bit.

Would you guys relax. You have literally taken a talk pertaining to Spvp and applied it to PvE. Now until they nerf us in PvE I see no point in the chicken little skyfall routine. In Spvp lets be honest it has to be nerfed. If you have played tournament with 3 DD bunker eles you’ll get what the problem is and there isn’t that much room for complaint on out side anymore.

In WvW it doesn’t matter. That place is inherently unbalanced and chaotic and anyone who complains about us there must be joking.

In PvE we are middle of the road and that’s fine.

Unless they apply nerfs to pve also (we have seen no indication of that and they said themselves they will likely split the nerf) then I see no reason for all this panic.

Admittedly I have been on thief much more the past month in case they do (plus I enjoy S/D game play). if they go down that road I doubt I will rage quit or anything like that but I will have lost faith in the balance team and the product over all.

frans.8092:

Rivets.9064:

Is there a hard cap to power? Shouldn’t a build like this be stacking power and toughness?

That said, the +30% critical damage you can get on the Critical Strikes trait line is quite significant. Sadly the traits in that line are a bit underwhelming, but that is likely to compensate.

Power and toughness. Regardless of survivability you should be stacking power in one way or another. Doesn’t matter if you mix it with survivability or crit damage/chance its the main DPS stat and a requirement if you actually want to DPS.

Toughness not so much. If you are good at not getting hit than toughness may not benefit you all that much. However, toughness is the best defensive stat in the game and if you do get hit there is nothing wrong with stacking it.

@frans

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/12dmi5/tip_stat_optimization_with_crit_damage/

you are right actually. In comparison to what you will give up to get it other places that 30% has lots of value in the way of stats you don’t have to give up to get it.

Edit:
Also http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Executioner and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer are really good grand master traits. The rest of the line (beside the minors which I like) are pretty bad.

In think you need to specify since you can play D/P pretty tanky for full glass.

Primary skills for really pushing stealth as far as you can get it would be something like this http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9hfGfV0s and fill in the rest. Initiative regen can get high enough you wont need the extra pool from Preparedness.

First off without knowing your weapon set, build, if your tanky or glass there is no way this community can really help you.

In WvW thieves can be strong roamers and Ok in keep assault and good in keep defense. The real limit is the players build and knowledge of it.

Now what weapon set are you running and what are you trying to do beside “get kills”?

Galsia.4102:

TheGuy.3568:

P/D (as you know) has weak access to blind. The most your looking at is http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Shadows and blinding powder.

Cloaked in Shadow.

The following skills that most commonly/are in a P/D build now apply blind:
Cloak and Dagger
Shadow Refuge x5 (pulses)
Hide in Shadows
Last Refuge (Adept Passive)

You really have to read more I know its long. You dodge C and D when it comes up (this is natural). Every other stealth skill requires the stealth apply before the blind. Blind counts for one weapon swing that misses. Strong access to blind comes for D/P. Even with all those skill the blind itself is melee and short range. There is no reason for blind to ruin your chances as it should not apply often. Like I said before its about denying stealth.

Last Refuge (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Refuge) is very inconsistent has a long CD and is vulnerable to the fact you cant control it.

Btw if you carry all those then the fight shouldn’t be all that hard. At most he would have access 1 or 2 venoms (only on doing dps) and maybe poison from mug. That level of condition damage (if you are properly denying stealth) will not kill you.

Edit:
Another note blind on stealth isn’t always going to be carried. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Arts tree carries other popular skills. The most notable skill to take its place is http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Protector. either way blind is one swing that’s it (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blind).

Red Falcon.8257:

I heard your theories, theguy.
The issue is that a P/D thief is going to be in stealth 99% of the times, how do you plan on applying all those tactics on something you never see?
You can go by trial and error but the issue is cooldowns. Thief has no cooldowns, Warrior does.

I can do what you say but that’s only 1 out of 10 times that I win.
Most times he manages to win even if just by little.

Don’t take offense to this but do you really play P/D? Its not an insult but saying thieves have no cd and applying it to PD sounds a bit suspect. That being said your looking at with your basic PD build your looking at an init pool of 15. Most if not all healing is coming from stealth (some from food). While they may have 2 stealth utilities and one as a heal at least one of the utilities is for escape they aren’t going to be very stealthy unless they are landing C n D.

Cloak and dagger should not be landing if it is rework your playstyle no matter the class it should not be landing. The animation is flagrant and easy to spot. If the thief is closing the gap (inherent flaw in P/D since its ranged. Think about it.) then you know its coming. C n D uses 6 init even with a large poll that’s 2 cast back to back. at most. As long is it not landing they aren’t getting much stealth.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloak_and_Dagger has cast bar and the animation is of a hand moving across the body. There are skills that actually activate faster and can counter (one being http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rifle_Butt). However honestly the only counter you want to be using is dodge.

The main way to land c n d on an enemy that is dodging it is to use a shadow step. Of course Steal + C n D is nearly unstoppable (there are lucky ways with perfect timing but its way to inconsistent). So you have to eat that stealth in most cases. The rest are counterable. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Signet can be used as a shadow step. Now if hes running a cookie cutter P/D condition build you know a few things. First is that this skill likely has its full cd of 30 seconds. Another thing to note is that this should be the thieves main stun break. The trick here is to remember that if hes stun he cant precast C n D and if he tries IS to C n D you can just dodge counter. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep would be the other. I wont lie there is no good way to counter this as an escape tool but as an access to stealth its weak. Same rules as IS above just remember he can step back to the place he stepped from.

the key thing to remember like with all /D thief builds is that they have to close the gap to get the stealth they are going to kill you with. P/D is the most predictable and the only build that should be able to land its stealth whenever it wants is S/D. If you can figure out why it can do that then you know how to stop a PD thief and force its stealth utilities and cool downs.

Did you guys even link to the build? I am not sure if this is a troll but those traits make very little sense.

i smell culling or hax but that is about it.

Dabrixmgp.4758:

There are no bad classes just bad players.

QFT

Warrior is really good in Spvp. Overall the class is the middle of the road. as far as build diversity goes. Sigh…the fact is most players play some version of glass. Warriors happen to have many useful traits that move away from glass toward balanced. Most of your weapons are good. I think too many people see GS use GS and feel the class has nothing to offer past that and it simply is not true.

Red Falcon.8257:

It’s a nice bit of theory there, theguy, would like to see a video of that.
Not considering D/D Eles who are broken and soon fixed, P/D is the only thing I could never counter on my Warrior.
If the Theif is any good he will just heal up the damage from ES, and either blind or dodge or shadowstep break the slow Backbreaker, then Warrior is out of tools for enough time to kill him twice.
Let alone any P/D thief will heal bazillions during stealth and due to omnomberry pie+sneak shot.

Unless I see it with my eyes I rest my case that P/D thief is a tad op.
On my Thief when I go P/D the only one that kills me is Guardian through massive AoE and ring of warding (if I can’t stability out of it that is).

Well like i said its about “denial of stealth” any one who plays thief realizes that stealth is the key. The primary denial of stealth is something every one should pick up with time. Evading C n D is part of any good player’s reputare. You should see it coming if it doesn’t come with steal. P/D (as you know) has weak access to blind. The most your looking at is http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Shadows and blinding powder. Even so it stops one weapon swing and that about it.

" then Warrior is out of tools for enough time to kill him twice." your still thinking glass vs glass. ES is on a 10 second cd I am not going to hand hold here but if you f up your stun combo switch rifle and proceed to stall. The dps is heads up and if your traited right the thief wont be going anywhere or doing very much. If he dagger storms stop dps and go melee. Likely 1 of 2 things will happen hell stop the storm hold the stability and try to CnD just dodge it. Or he’ll keep to the storm if that the case punish him with melee.

As far as shadow steps go like I said at the end of the day your cc will beat his break if you both did what your’e supposed to. His CDs cant keep up (only S/D could do it).

You made a good point about the ES dodge. The animation is wide enough to dodge. However, this is countable too. Literally you can land ES every time and the thief can’t dodge. There is no healing through ES you can either shadow step or blinding powder but neither will do much good in the long run.

I will tell you now WvW video is pointless and stupid. No one can play for you or you say “ooh that works”. Either you can do it or you cant and of course its not going to work 100% of the time. That simply doesn’t happen there are too many variables in WvW. Figuring the rest out yourself it makes more sense to just come up with something that work for you. The best counter is to play P/D yourself and see where the gaps are. If you can’t get out of WvW and head to spvp in the smaller arenas. Eventually you’ll encounter players who can counter your build. Either way in WvW most of the time you’ll wipe the floor with warriors and that wont change. Or the warrior can always run and the PD simply won’t catch up.

BTW as you would guess all this fall apart if hes landing his cloak and dagger consistently. So no matter hammer, sword, whatever learn to spot the cast.

BTW PD is not OP its about right. C n D still has a high cost. Most other classes have strong enough condition removal to deal with it and most players suck. PD is inherently weak because this http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vital_Shot will not win fights against good players. The main problem is the PD player is so unlikely to run into some one running a counter build to their own they can only assume the build is strong. This is primarily an easy build. 1 and 5 are the core skills of the build.

Sorry for the long reply.

TL: DR

PD is actually an easy counter (the skills you need to do so that is) what I said before holds true. I am not sharing a build just some advice.

Vanthian.9267:

If the thief has a secondary hand pistol on anyone of his weapons sets there is no reason he should lose (if he is decent) to a Warrior. The “Black Powder” skill is completely broken against melee classes. Not only does it blind us, but even if we get distance he can just leap through it and stealth. It is a very solid defensive move.

The best bet for a Warrior to even have a chance at beating a Dagger/Pistol thief is to do your best to alternate between normal attacks and stuns/dazes in between the blinds to force him to blow his cool-downs all the while saving “Bulls Charge + Frenzy” for when he has nothing left.

Realize though, he has “Shadow Step” skill, stun breaker 1200 range 50 second cool-down, “Hard to Catch” trait, shadow steps away and gets swiftness for 10seconds at 1200 range when stunned/dazed/knocked down/etc 60 second cool-down, more than likely “Hide in Shadows” heal + stealth, also while in stealth heals a condition every 3 seconds/regen health/regen initiative/move 50% faster all while stealthed. He could use Pistol 5 “Black Powder” + Dagger 2 “Heartseeker Strike” to gain stealth. He more than likely also has “Shadow Refuge” a very long stealth that will basically take him to full health from 1 health point (if he has the above set up).

Also note, if he has his elite up “Thieves Guild” your best bet is to take a shield with the trait “Missile Deflection” Trait V. It can almost one shot the pistol thief with his unload, while also knocking down the Dagger thief instead of him knocking you down.

You will die 9/10 times to Dagger/Pistol thiefs solely because their class is much better suited for PvP in general.

Please note: Trying to instant gib a thief will not work if he is traited properly. You must waste his stun breakers first.

Dude your mixing up builds.

So far you named P/D S/D D/P and P/P no thieve can run all those and those traits in the same build. the build you mention does not exist the initative cost would be astronomical and simply put you cant have 4 weapon sets at the same time.

Back to the topic

There are 2 condition builds P/D sneak attack spam and DD LDB spam thats about it.

Caltrops can be taken out the equation by walking out of it. The area isn’t that big. Because warrior has weak condition removal your half SOL on cleanses. that being said most P/D thieves will die to a stun lock if you can pull it off. the thing to remember is on thief some traps and teleports are the stun breaks not stealth. If you stun lock them they are stun locked simple as that. The teleport skill you mention is http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Strike to http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return most condition thieves will not run this as an off set (some might) but it would kill their DPS which relies on keeping bleeds up. So its not something to worry about.

If you take a peak at the http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_breaker#Skills_that_break_stun you’ll realize that most thief stun breakers are on long CD and stuns. knock backs, knockdowns, etc are on much short cds. Thieves also have weak access to stability gaining it through http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm. You could literally keep them stun locked with hammer alone.

The best course of action is to kill their DPS chain by not falling for caltrops and dodging about half second (or immediately) after they close the gap causing them to miss http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloak_and_Dagger. Most thieves carry at least 2 other stealths. As long as your aware of it and how long stealth actually easy you could out ranger their Sneak Attack with a rifle or LOS them until stealth runs out.

the rest you can figure out but a word of advice. thief condition removal comes from stealth hammer is arguably the best stealth denial tool you have along with rifle.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows has a cast bar and long CD
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Refuge simply walk in the middle and hit hammer 4
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder instant but only has one blind and a long CD it does not break stun (you’ll likely hit the thief where he was)

Honestly warrior is one of the best stealth denial classes out there. So many of you Play GS or Axe solely that you forget your other weapons and how useful they are.

I used up play P/D long ago before it was “Popular”. I heard the whole hacks unfair etc etc. I am not bragging in anyway. The build is cheap and rather simple to play. However it actually has strong counters. If you read this I honestly hope it helps.

Calae.1738:

I hope you guys have alts.

Honestly lots of em. I find it funny how panic sets in when everything said so far applies to SPVP only. Either way well be forced to adapt and there isn’t much wrong with that. I know one thing though. The next time anyone creates a build remotely OP they best not share it.

coglin.1496:

You cna go from 0-80 crafting. The Anet team designed crafting so that 0-400 crafting nets you just at 10 levels.

^This

Also 1-10 (rather 2-10) have a lower exp requirement than the other brackets and a free level you you should end up with slightly more levels.

A word to the wise even with max supplies you still wont have enough for most weapon and armor crafts. The cheapest craft are artificer (making consumables), cooking (if you use karma items), and Jewel craft. The others all hover around the same cost but being very efficient and putting in buy orders instead of buy it now you can go from 1-80 for roughly 15g. I would suggest you visit one of the many crafting guide sites. Many of their totals are off and it may take you some time to figure out the right numbers.

If you travel back and forth to the trade broker the process can get tedious. I find buying all the supplies for the crafts I am going to level days in advance to wok the best. You should cut the overall cost by putting in cheap order and giving the market enough time to adjust to your price (best to do this on a weekday).

I am about to level a character this way myself. It will be the fifth I have used crafting to level.

Weapon Skills: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_skill

Dagger
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab is the most commonly used stealth skill. It does double damage if you are behind the target (actually the 180 degrees that would be considered the “back” of the circle around your target will also trigger the x2 damage so a flaking strike can trigger the damage increase also) .

Pistol
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sneak_Attack often used as Pistol/dagger thieves main source of dps. this skill actually hits decent hard with crit damage x Chance builds but truly shines with bleed condition. the 900 range makes it a decent range condition option.

Sword
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tactical_Strike Dazes the target (not the same as stun http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daze) if you strike from the back* (see back stab) and blinds if you hit from the front. This skill has a lot of utility in PvE often allowing a player to partially “daze lock” difficulty mobs. The daze last 2 seconds in PvE 1.5 in PvP.

Shortbow
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Surprise_Shot immobilizes the target for 2 seconds.

Revealed:

Revealed is a debuff that makes you immune to stealth for 3 seconds. Revealed is only applied after you attack and land an attack for stealth. Missing your attack or having your attack blocked will not cause a revealed state. When stealth runs out naturally without you attacking you do not receive the revealed debuff and can reenter stealth immediately.

Traits

The main trait line associated with stealth is Shadow Arts (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Arts). All the minor traits in this line relate to stealth in one way or another. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Refuge grants stealth at 25% hp http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Meld_with_Shadows gives all stealth skills 1 extra second of stealth and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Assassin will grant 15 seconds of might upon entering stealth.

there are many good traits in this line but I wont review them all in debt however o break it down

Healing
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Rejuvenation
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Protector

+ Initiative Management+
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion_of_Shadow
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Patience

Condition removal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace

Condition
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloaked_in_Shadow

Other notable traits

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Instinctual_Response
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Descent_of_Shadows
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fleet_Shadow
Notes

Stealth utility skills and combo field skills stack duration. So if 2 thieves run with utility skills to maximize stealth they could easily reach 20+ seconds of it.

First off no one said you have to use stealth as a thief. LDB is fine as a build so I don’t see a point wanting to change. You said yourself “I’m very happy with this style of play but I know there’s more I can do.” There are different things you can do not really more. Your condition build would only fall into problem areas in a few situations none of which apply to solo play. However, despite all this learning more about your class is never a bad thing so..

Stealth: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth

Is actually a defensive mechanic but you already know this. Depending on how you use it can be a source of healing cleansing or the key opener to your dps. maximizing your dps from stealth isn’t always about how long your stealth for and more about what your using it for. As an example look at your basic back stab build. The vast majority of stealth in that build is to give you access to back stab and of course to protect you while you do so.

Now stealth while defensive in nature does not:

-Mitigate incoming dps in any way
-Stop traps from triggering or marks
-Stop channeled skills that are already cast

What stealth does:

-break target of your attacker
-makes it impossible for them to see you take damage (if they have a skill that combos they can see the chain complelting and logic dictates they are hitting some invisible likely you)

What stealth can do (traited):

-blind enemies upon entering it
-cure conditions every 3 seconds while in it
-heal while in it (you can also provide regen to those you stealth)
-recover initiative faster
-gain might
-move faster (while stealth does slow your movement speed some what the 50% bonus of this trait will make you move faster than base running speed)
-last longer (1 second)

Skills that Stealth

Weapon Skills

The most common skill to give you access to stealth is http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloak_and_Dagger . In order to gain stealth through the use of this skill you must hit the target at the end of the cast bar. If you miss the attack you gain no stealth. The initiative cost is a high 6 but never the less this is the most commonly used weapon skill to give stealth. One of the most common ways to nearly guarantee you land this skill is to start casting the skill and then immediately steal closing the gap and landing the skill. Another method for some builds is to cast http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Strike and then cast C n D.

The second option is http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Powder + http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heartseeker. The overall cost of the combo is 9 initiative (3/4 the base bar) but this combo requires no target to enter stealth. The most “permanent” stealth builds will usually use this combo with high initiative regen.

You can also use Black Powder + http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cluster_Bomb to enter stealth but the uses of this combo are severely limited.

Utility Skills

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder will stealth you and blind the enemies in the immediate area. It can be used while stunned or knocked down and will stealth nearby allies.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Refuge is the longest lasting stealth skill and also acts as a small heal. It has a huge area and is often use as a last resort “run away skill”. In PvE this skill is very useful often providing the capability to rez allies. The down fall of the skill is its initial window while the “tent” is up. You can be knocked out of the tent revealing you. However if you manage to stay in it the entire time you’ll have about 10 seconds of stealth. Since the skill is ground targeted it can be used to stealth others without stealthing your self however everyone who runs into the “tent” before it disappears will be stealth. As long as they don’t attack and aren’t knocked out they will receive the longer stealth.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Trap can both stealth and port you to the target (at least where the trap is). However considering your enemy must trigger the trap its uses are limited.

Stealing

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Tuft can be stolen from other thieves and certain mobs its slightly weaker one person blinding powder but has its uses.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Thief is a trait that when you steal you gain stealth.

Healing Skill

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows main heal skill 30 second cd. It also cleanses poison, burning, and bleeding.

Honestly look for you commander symbol if its out in the field meet up and likely you’ll be ok. I took a level 3 toon to wvw and just ran with the zerg. As long as you have your wits about you you’ll be ok. The key thing is to have fun. While this competitive its not spvp.

Btw your toon all by it self wont do much to the rankings. Honestly there is a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes. Best to just sit back relax and play without worrying about things like that.

Also what class do you play? You don’t have to be pigeon holed into a specific job but thief roaming is way different than necromancer. And mark necros can be deadly in siege. So your class to a certain extent may help you facilitate your decision.

/bump

we can only hope.

Finding the real one is a learn to play issue period end of story.

However shatter is OP atm. Its not so much the shatter that’s op but that all the utility skills that summon clones have such strong defensive properties its makes mesmers extremely hard to lock down while still allowing them full access to dps. The other thing is shatter has nearly no risk and the basic shatter builds have such strong defenses in the form of invulnerability and stuns that its makes for a mixture of skills that are simply too strong when combined.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Retreat
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deceptive_Evasion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirror_Images
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Decoy

would be the main list of culprits. Plus some of the traits in the shatter line.

Should all these skills be nerfed? No. However some of them should be looked at. These counter skills are simply too offensive in the nature of a shatter build. Closing the gap on a mesmer more often then not means certain death.

There needs to be some analysis of risk vs reward given the shear amount of DPS burst a shatter build has.

I think you answered your own question in your OP. You clearly state you like DD more and find no difference in survivability. DD flat out does more single target damage. S/D (when used correctly) is the set with the most utility by far.

However none of that matters you like DD more so play DD.

Caffynated.5713:

WvW who have a better handle on how classes interact in a more complex environment than a 12’ radius circle.

I agree. I was listening and was dissapppointed with the overall scope of the discussion (it hints of pvp elitism). I am in WvW (on thief these days no backstab, pw, pd, or ldb lol) and I see more players there than I ever do In spvp. I get it spvp is hella important and I tourney from time to time too but when I spend a couple hours doing runs in AC for cash for WvW; I realize I put in double time just to be competitive there. I get spvp and all and mastering the craft but kitten we actually have to grind for it.

Also if anyone’s interested look at the 51:40 mark. It will give you a good idea that this talk was about spvp. I don’t know what changes they plan for us in WvW but they cant reflect Spvp too much is already nerfed there, and not just for us but for most other classes as well.

Hold up a sec. First off that entire talk (or nearly the entirety of it) is about spvp. So don’t jump to conclusions all willy nilly. Second thing is where the heal nerf hits many mean less in the over scope of things. A nerf to our mobility would be much worse over all.

Budchgon.2108:

And Thieves still say stealth is not OP :-)
Hit- stealth- hit- stealth – hit – stealth etc …

Ever play a thief and I don’t mean the cursory I have a level 10 one I’m leveling I mean really play one? Or if you have have you even run a no stealth build? Ever play a class with access to protection?

The reason I ask these questions is that if the answers to questions 1 and 2 are “No” you should shut up since you don’t understand the class you are commenting on. If the answer to question 3 is also "No"’; then you don’t understand the defensive mechanics in the game and you should definitely have noting to comment on.

As far as PD and the videos. I gave up on PD like 4 months ago for being a build where you press 2 buttons usually. I cant hate on what it does but I mean its 2 buttons. However if you press those 2 buttons like a boss you could kill someone standing in the middle of a raid and down them. There is nothing wrong with sharing your WvW spvp or pve experiences that’s what this place is for anyway so thanks for posting.

Got to agree with Fletch S/D can be a monster set in dungeons.

As for bringing every set… Even though I have every set most of the time its a waist.

I will tell you something the best thing you can do is know the run simple as that. Knowing the dungeon will often lead to you being able to run it no matter the set you use. Because the dungeons can be tricky requires lots of timing and you may or may not be carrying your team.

As far as thieves sucking in dungeons. Factually we have little to no room for error. Even defensively speced we just don’t scale like warrior or guardian and our range option while niche is a little lack luster.In the long run your skill level dictate which content you can do on thief comfortably.

Best weapon sets based on skills alone

D/P for any boss that can be blinded

S/P because you can PW evade many bosses taking nearly no damage even full glass

S/D because over all it grants you the most options and is the most useful set to the team over all.

SB cluster bomb. One of the best weapons for clearing trash. A very cheap evade skill you can weakness debuff a boss and one of the best accesses to poison in the game (can really help with some fractal bosses that regen). But the best thing about this weapon is the cluster bomb blast finisher. Pairing that skill with Ranger or ele or guardian who knows what they’re doing can lead to incredible synergy and thus faster runs.

The class is designed around stealth get over it already. They put all (and I mean all ) or defensive traits in stealth. Unless they plan to rework the class from scratch and make us warriors I don’t see a point in all this kittening. And that is exactly what it is. Right now thief is a class is hell of a position. The community hates the class but good players realize its an easy counter. We simply don’t have the ridiculous access to buffs that every other class has so we have no true bunker. Our aoe options is relatively weak compared to other classes. Our burst is strong but our sustained isn’t anything special. Just like mesmers have clones we have stealth. that’s our gimmick and its necessary. So lets stop with the jokes.

Hers the best Idea your going to get in this entire thread. You have this skill called dodge and these other skills call CC use them no game changes necessary. Seriously l2p lots of thread and information out there if half of you spent half the time you spend complaining learning hoe to play your classes then there would be no thread like this.

For reference sake I don’t Play DD at all or PD or SP Dp at all. I am SD 100% my burst comes from auto attack half the time you can see me stealth boost my dps by a whopping 0 but I need it just to survive half the skills they give other classes. I am not invulnerable while its up the healing is pitiful but I know its necessary.

One day give a warrior a thief with equal gear and have them auto tack each other and see who dies first try it.

Going to break it down. Most stealth skills last 3-4 seconds during which time you can dodge and let it run out or swing away until you see your combo. Now much like my arguments to why most people cant beat DD ele its the same with thief. Most players are too lazy or too pew pew minded to cc. Knockdowns being particularly strong. Why you ask? Well some stealth builds cleanse conditions no stealth breaks a knock down ( that’s what teleports are for). Wide area knock downs like the ones guardian and warrior can keep up with hammer ( http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer) can keep a thief CC’d through the entirety of stealth. Most dps thieves have no counter to this (S/D can hard counter the cc http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Strike and S/P to a lesser extent due to play style.) Smaller area CC ( http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backdraft_ , http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthquake, etc) can do the same thing just require better timing.

Another thing is you can dodge http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloak_and_Dagger pretty easily if it not the initial (Steal + C&D) its got a huge animations that pretty easy to spot and a high initiative cost. Builds like PD and DD back stab rely on this skill dodge it twice and they are blowing cool downs. All the other stealth skills have relatively long cds. (Note: good players will either spam aoe in http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Refuge or attempt to knock the thief out of the area thus stopping the long lasting stealth from applying.) Familiarize yourself with skills that stealth not just thieves and you’ll learn ow to counter stealth on any class (some help http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth.)

Please remember stealth does not make you invulnerable spam skills and don’t let up. Often I beat other thieves on my thief by simply switch to http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shortbow and spamming 4 and 2. AOEing around yourself if you have the dps and skills to do will leave many thieves in the situation that engaging you could mean certain death before they get you. SB for thief, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Traps for ranger, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenade_Kit for engi, DD (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger) in general for ele, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark for necro, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shatter clone (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Clone) heavy for Mesmer (they linger through stealth), http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Greatsword /hammer and axe #5 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Axe) for warrior, and guardians hammer and GS can all be used in this way. Every class has access to some sort of AOE skill that can be placed at their location (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bomb_Kit http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Longbow and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Staff) every class have these type skills there is no excuse if you don’t use them.

Strictly speaking this is a L2P issue no more no less. You should receive no sympathy if you run glass cannon and get your kitten rocked by a thief doing the same thing. The game should not tailor itself to your lack of knowledge or skill. Before coming and kittening realize the tools to counter any fricking thing in the game are already in the game if you refuse to use them what the hell should anyone care?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knock_back to push out of refuge or away from you.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knock_down / http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun to cc to prevent stealth or CC though its duration. AOE theirs a lot of it PBAOE or ground targeted doesn’t matter if you know how use it its hard counter to melee thief read some http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aoe. Please consider http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blind and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilize. thief builds that do not have strong condition removal ie http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace can be put in dire straits by simply killing some part of their chain.

TLDR read learn something play better or quit your kittening and get off thief forums full if whine.

Edit: more link = more info

Memser is a good class and 1 v 1 is pretty much Op that being said. Its slow. For roaming its one of the worst classes in WvW. Beside that it has a lot of DPS tied into defensive skills (not unlike thief).

@OP glad you love mesmer but much like us most people run the cookie cutter build 20/20/0/0/30 so basically you will likely end up in the same boat as you would with ele. Variation occur but that 30 in shatter is dam near guaranteed. The widest range in viable builds come from warrior, guardian, engineer, and thief. Try every class and always look back.

Solori.6025:

TheGuy.3568:

Long story and lots of math short. Unless you have crit damage multiplier precision falls behind power and either way you’ll need power to justify precision.

Or, you could build a hybrid ele with decent power,pre, and crit dam.
pretty high vit, and you will float at around 700 or so healing power…. . .

You would have to define decent, and if we get into real min maxing you have start putting your values in order. First off, vitality in our case would get out shined by toughness in the long run. Were not eating hits most of the time and our condition wiping is incredible so toughness makes more sense.

Then we go into how much power, how much precision, and how much crit damage. Now there are lots of things account for and what realistic, but in most cases for us 30% crit rate with a build that has near or permanent fury (since it will bump up to 50%) would be ok. Then you have to worry about crit damage. Your looking at at least 50%. So then you go into the stats and what gear combinations are feasible. Your’e probably going to be looking at a combination of Valkyrie and Knight’s with Opal and Beryl orbs.

If it were me I would go for as little healing power as I feel comfortable with probably way less than 700. Our heals heal hard no matter what even with reduced healing power you’ll likely be a ok. Unless you were super tanky you’ll barely feel it as the best scaling we get is 100% and that’s a 1 to 1 ratio. The heals hit over 1k all by them selves plus all the ambient healing would suffer very little.

Now here the kicker. I would say go to tree 2 ie air and invest there because in the long run the crit damage multiplier you get from there would be invaluable. However, because most find the second tree of our class lack luster past 10 points your pretty much left making up the gap with gear. if you are making it up with the gear you have to consider that critical damage is only ever paired with 2 things beside power those are precision and vitality. If you made up the gap with gear your toughness would be low and you would be rather squishy. Now depending on your set this may not matter.

The other thing is pairing a little bit of precision in favor of power is basically gimping yourself. If you pair it with power you may boost yourself a little but the difference would be marginal as our big hitting skills are all on long cool downs. For lets say a back stab thief or just about any other class this makes a great deal of sense as their biggest hitting skills are on short or nearly no cool down. We however do not have this luxury.

In the long run power pays off better with defensive stats. Our access to fury and an unbelievable capability to stack might makes it that when we use a hard hitting skill we hit hard 100% of the time. Leaving too much to rng in our case is not good. Another thing for the DD SD and SF conditions are applied often, If I wanted more DPS I would actually toss in more condition damage in. Since might pairs with condition damage and power simultaneously (ie it boost both at the same time) and usually we have a lot of access to it there is more sense in adding a little more condition damage than precision and crit damage.

I know its long but read if you like.

In summation its still smarter to go pure power with defensive stats for us and in most cases condition damage makes more sense to boost our dps.