Guild Wars 2

See, this was something interesting to argue or discuss two years ago.

Now it’s just tiring.

. . . and the video stinks like Risen after four days.

Basaltface.2786:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

GuzziHero.2467:

That my PC will overheat, melt, and burn through the floor till it reaches the centre of the earth, causing a rupture in the crust that will result in the annihilation of Mankind.

No, that’s trying to make any earthly PC play Crysis 5.

actually thats a slight concern in the back of my head too. Remember the ley line cave? For some reason my pc that usually runs perfectly smooth..even at boss train zerging goes down to 15fps in there :\

See, I don’t worry about it personally.

I know it’s going to chug.

GuzziHero.2467:

That my PC will overheat, melt, and burn through the floor till it reaches the centre of the earth, causing a rupture in the crust that will result in the annihilation of Mankind.

No, that’s trying to make any earthly PC play Crysis 5.

I didn’t find her that obnoxious going to prevent Eir from being killed in Honor of the Waves. I found her incredibly obnoxious in Twilight Arbor, however. And incredibly gullible early in her life too, apparently.

I mean, seriously, look at how long it took before she had even a bit of problem with Faolain’s little “issue”. Gah. And people call Logan the fool cluelessly in love.

Mine’s at +99% from Luck. I am thus way far behind the curve apparently

StinVec.3621:

Also, I refuse to ever intentionally salvage a glob of ectoplasm. May have salvaged one accidentally once a long time ago though. Thinking of doing such a thing intentionally makes me shudder.

. . . I can’t do it. My GW1 characters stare at me accusingly from the past.

Titus.4285:

Something akin to “The world of Ice and Fire” compendium? …which was a collaboration work between George R. R. Martin and two of his most prominent wiki geeks.

Yeah, I’d definately buy (work on) it!

So would I, but I’m sure they have people for that.

aspirine.6852:

Didnt that kick in after you found some of the things you were farming? Atleast something dropped in GW1

Yes and no. It was never confirmed exactly how it worked (for solid reasons) but it was noted to kick in if you were killing in the same area a proportionally unusual level compared to a baseline set by what was expected an average player would do.

Of course, it’s still not as utterly hilarious as seeing what lengths they went to to try to prevent the UW from being farmed. And still failed, from what I understand.

Devata.6589:

Really.. You think people are here just to disagree with Colin? Well at least now I understand your hostility.

No, my hostility such as it is, is reserved for people who argue from positions of logical instability and refuse to see that. Your claim is that your position has merit because it must be so, while telling me a counterclaim has no merit because . . . ?

You continuously flop between “grind” being a universal truth which must be acknowledged or a subjective feeling which is more relevant to the individual.

You continually dismiss arguments as invalid because you do not like what they say, then complain when others do it to you.

In short, if there is hostility you sense . . . dear reader . . . it is because I do not recognize your authority to claim these things as factual when you play this fast and loose with how you debate. I recognize you are more intelligent than what you say, and eagerly await the day you stop with “no, you’re wrong because I say so now don’t tell me I’m wrong because you say so”.

They are not here to just disagree with Colin.

I think some of them are.

They simply explain the grind they run into and that is 100% valid and does not matter if fits or does not fit into the no grind philosophy. They simply have an issue with the game and talk about that here. As much as you have an issue with the NPE and talk about that.

And that’s fine to discuss. I’ve had discussions with more than a few people . . . privately . . . or in map chat sometimes . . . about how they feel and why. You’ll see I actually had a civil one with Ashen, and in another topic I had one with naisonad. . . well, however it’s spelled, when they disagreed with me.

It’s fine to discuss. But the discussion becomes less useful when it starts bearing the resemblance to an ultimatum. When the rhetoric stops being about “me/myself/I” and starts using “we/us/our”, and about rights or demands, it’s no longer a discussion.

But I guess if you say anything about that you are also just wanting to disagree with Anet right..?:S

I don’t care if they do. I disagree with ANet on a lot of things, and I’ve had . . . decently long discussions with at least five people who worked on the game about why I feel there was a mistake made. Even Vayne has points he disagrees with, and if you give him the topic space to do so he will explain at great length. But that’s another issue.

Oow and about that definition you seem to keep telling people are making up but is not a definition Colin agrees with or whatever….

AGAIN:

There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category

So yes also Colin agrees this is grind! (why would he not, it’s a general meaning of the word grind. Only people who try to talk away the grind try to say it’s not grind) All Colin did say was that these types of grind are not the grind they are trying to prevent with their no grind philosophy.

And I agreed a while back Ascended gear was grindy. I also noted that as I have earned two of the pieces as loot as opposed to crafting them the long way, I was probably being hypocritical in saying so.

My point of contention has been how it has close to nil in the way of preventing progress in the game as it stands currently. As such, it shouldn’t be argued as a “need” as much as a “desire”. It’s been that way from back when Ascended was introduced in rings/back items, if you feel like diving back and reading.

And what people now here say is. “Well that might be so. But we do still dislike that grind a lot. Being it part of the grind you try to prevent or not.”

Thats all.

I take more issue with the people trying to build around it being “necessary for a complete game experience” when it’s . . . arguably not the case.

There is also nothing misguiding about asking this.
A game like WoW does not have this type of grind so much. If I picked a random mini there, there is a 90% change (no real number!) that I can just go hunt it down in the world. Same for most cosmetics.

Not a question, but I’ll retort for it anyway. What if that random chance happened to pick an item which is no longer available . . . ?

Also, worth noting, the previous game released by this company running GW2? Had problems like these and people seem . . . still . . . quite all right with them.

Devata.6589:

You still seem to not understand that many people don’t care that much about ‘performance’ as is needing to have the max damage. Some care more about the visual part so then the cosmetics are more or at least just as important / fun as the performance are for others. Meaning it does not change a thing if it does or does not impact the performance. You can keep repeating that as long as you want but it does not change the fact that people run into this grind (you are now finally accepting) and dislike it. Performance or not is completely irrelevant for that. The game is for fun, not for performance.

Is it for performance or fun? Which is it? Because you said the performance is an issue at the top, and ended with that end bit. So . . . what?

Then why are you here actively trying to downplay there complains because the grind is not ‘required’ or does not revolve around ‘performance’. We all know that.. we don’t care. You say thats fine, nobody ask you to parent them but don’t downplay the complete reasonable complain they have about this.

There’s a fine line between “I think this is too much for this” and “I am being forced to do this grind”. I take issue with the latter, which is the tone a lot of the complaints take.

“Gold isn’t hard to come by, so long as you are patient.  ” First of all, my example did how why patient will only put you more behind

I’m sorry. I really, truly, am sorry you feel there is no room for patience. This is a point we will have to disagree on entirely, as I feel patience is very much a virtue. Especially when not having patience causes so much distress as you lay out.

“If you want to keep championing for the downtrodden grinders ” Uhhm.. no the grinders are fine. It’s those that want fun ways to hunt down the items in stead of grinding.

If the grind is fine, why are we having this conversation at all?

“In fact, you keep repeating the same thing.” 100% true because I keep answering to the same arguments all the time. Or do you think you said anything new? “It’s grind because I say it’s perceived as grind.” No it’s grind because it’s grind even Colin named it grind and even you just referred to it as grind. “I know how people run into it and see it as grind.” If ‘people’ see it as grind, it is grind right.. thats how words work.

We agreed some pages back grind is subjective, right? So please, stop and realize what you just said here is that grind is universally if it’s subjectively true. Don’t argue something so absurd.

“I say it is so it must be so” That is then almost as good as your “I say it’s not so, so it can’t be so”
Thing is, if many people do feel the grind (they feel it’s so) that makes a relevant point to debate here. So in a we yes “if people say it’s so, it is so.”

But if people say it’s not so, then that is an affront? Seriously, why do you keep arguing with these logical absurdities?

But for some reason you seem to think you need to downplay this with funny arguments as ‘you don’t need it’. What was, is and stays irrelevant for how people want to play and enjoy a game.

I’m watching you play it up with funny arguments all the time, so I figured I’d give it a shot keeping it within a logical framework rather than rhetoric and appeals to the masses as “more agreement = right”. That’s not how it works, if you want to simultaneously claim something is a universal truth.

AegisRunestone.8672:

No.

I can’t find who said it: but they said it best by pointing out that it would create distrust among the playerbase.

Also, getting ganked by another guild while fighting Teq? That’s another reason I say ‘no!’

Twas me, at the least, possibly others.

Ashen.2907:

She is an employee that publicly repeated and supported a statement that feedback from the company’s customers was irrelevant.

. . . did she? I read it as her saying a lot of the posts wound up irrelevant. And you can’t deny the infighting between particular ideals in that thread wasn’t irrelevant in regards to feedback. It was groups lining up to take shots at each other and trying to score points like there was someone keeping score.

Then there were the people who, understandably, did not read the topic before going to post. That’s one reason it wasn’t serving a legitimate purpose – it was too huge for people to review so you got a lot of “I’m not sure if anyone said this before but…” I feel for them rather than deride them because that topic was a Herculean labor to actually read without glazing over mentally or wanting to stick a gun barrel in your mouth and gently squeeze a trigger.

And as Gaile unwittingly pointed out it was breaking, and there was a serious problem actually getting it shown there was something of a revamp in mind coming up.

The thread needed a fresh start, and it needs some forward motion instead of sitting around here complaining about it being locked.

It should be tucked into the CDI forum even when locked so it can be referenced and so it’s not lost in the sea of old posts. It’s relevant. It’s important. There was a lot of valuable material in there as much as there was a lot of irrelevant and useless junk going on.

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne . . . I’m sorry. I have no intent of going forward with leveling my alts which got started after the Trait revamp because of this. Sure, I play my ranger almost exclusively.

. . . almost . . .

But at least one of my characters is saddled with no Trait Masteries to speak of. I will have to do events for another character to try to grab the last ones. I don’t plan on seriously starting another alt until I know what the new system is going to be and it’s in place.

This change we’re talking of did affect me. Negatively.

That’s one reason I’m interested in seeing what’s coming out instead, rather than being merely academically interested as I am concerning grind.

And I’m not saying you’re not affected. Show me where I said this.

I’m saying MOST people don’t really care or know or think about it. The bulk of the people. Not the 15% of the people who come to forums. The 50% of the people who haven’t looked twice at their trait screen since launch. I remember one of the devs saying something about how many people NEVER looked at a trait screen. It was an amazing number.

Surely you realize that people like us a vast minority. Not some great majority. And yes, many of us in that vast minority are affected.

But most people aren’t…even if we are.

I AM affected. That doesn’t change a word I’ve said.

No, I’m not saying you said that. I know you know I am careful about that particular gripe here on the forum.

I’m just adding my point to this. Again. Since the old thread has been locked (but not forgotten) I felt the distillation of it needed to be put here in the midst of this. The change affects me, even as much as I might realistically say otherwise? It did. It changed how I played the game in a negative way.

insanemaniac.2456:

all shes ever done is help us get our voices heard by the devs.

And be hilarious while fighting the Claw of Jormag.

Why do you really need more gold than that? What exactly are you after which requires that much? Aside from Precursors and permanent contracts.

Honestly, my weigh in on this? The method you use for the Silverwastes, regarding the armor boxes and most things becoming available for Bandit Crests? I like it. I’d like to see something like this for other regions. Knowing that eventually you will have worked towards something you want? Sure.

. . . now if only the Coat was available there.

Vayne . . . I’m sorry. I have no intent of going forward with leveling my alts which got started after the Trait revamp because of this. Sure, I play my ranger almost exclusively.

. . . almost . . .

But at least one of my characters is saddled with no Trait Masteries to speak of. I will have to do events for another character to try to grab the last ones. I don’t plan on seriously starting another alt until I know what the new system is going to be and it’s in place.

This change we’re talking of did affect me. Negatively.

That’s one reason I’m interested in seeing what’s coming out instead, rather than being merely academically interested as I am concerning grind.

That’s interesting, Ashen. Thanks for that perspective. I’ll have to think on it . . . in the meantime, I’ll return quietly to silence on this topic. There is little more I could say which I haven’t, with regard to the grind people reference and why I view it as either a subjective trap of the mind or an unnecessary diversion from enjoying what you have while worrying about what you don’t.

And I’ve wandered afield in philosophical musings on a slight tangent in that discussion. My apologies for doing that.

I honestly believe, after today, no matter what ANet developers may do to retool the game, no matter how they may alter loot in the future or Traits/Masteries/Anything . . . someone, somewhere will be more than happy to plant a flag and cry from the hilltops how the grind is insurmountable and a personal affront. Regardless of whatever Colin, Mike, Anthony, or Chris say, there will always be at least one person who is willing to start . . . another . . . topic on how there is too much grind.

Of course he will, because it’s two fold. One, you might not have the absolute cutting-edge best gear out there. Considering I keep hearing changes on what that is generally, I filed it under “just whatever you can live with” for myself.

And secondly, someone else will inevitably be able to pick up the same character you are certain is perhaps not underperforming anymore – and make him do things you never thought possible.

There is always someone better.

Hey look, rather than try to discuss things, the thread already is going south arguing over the message of closing the other thread and starting a new one. Sigh. Just . . . lock this outright until we get something about what’s coming up.

Ah well, at least I tried to put something of value in here.

Ashen.2907:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But if you want to have fun . . . and your fun is dependent on things? Rather than people, rather than the experiences? Maybe you should think about that.

fun is a thousand different things to even just one person. A person looks for different flavors of fun in different things. I cannot have fun mountain biking without certain things…namely a mountain bike. Someone who approaches an MMO to have fun collecting things or completing a character, or whatever may not need anything at all to have fun at some other endeavor.

There is no need for some sort of self examination for looking for a particular flavor of fun in a particular endeavor. Even in similar endeavors the flavor can be radically different. When I play a superhero pnp RPG there is no effort or expectation of accumulating wealth and power as part of the fun. When playing a kick down the door and kill every monster in the room dungeon crawl part of the fun is seeing the character progress inpower and influence through wealth and items. Both RPGs, similar, very different approaches to fun. Both satisfy different fun cravings. MMOs provide fun in different flavors for different people. The fact that for you the flavor doesnt seem to center around going after things in game, while for others it might, doesn’t mean that they need to take stock. It means that in this particular endeavor you and they are finding fun in different ways.

I apologize, I should have been more clear.

If the fun for you has to revolve around being the absolute best-geared, or having all the shinies, then I think you need to accept there will be a significant hardship attached to this goal. Or that it may never actually be attained. Find your fun in the pursuit of the goal, not in having to reach it. That’s setting yourself up for disappointment should something come up which prevents you from achieving it.

And you know what, when I typed that earlier? I wasn’t looking down on people. I just think you really do need to stop and figure out what you find fun about something. Is it the having? Or the pursuit? Is it the prestige of the item in question, or is it knowing what you overcome to get it?

Like I said, most of my MMO years I can look back and remember events more than things which were what I treasured. Things come and go. Things are just data on a server which will eventually go dark. Those memories? Bloody Kithicor and its aftermath, for instance? That stays.

phys.7689:

you seriously believe champ trains were about champion daily/monthlies? no it was about gold. more 2-3 times as much gold as you make now in 2 hours
(8-12 gold) with less effort than your own method.
The champ train didnt die when champ slayer wasnt in the monthly, it didnt die towards the end of the month. It was about effecient gold grinding.

It’s actually pretty inefficient gold grinding, in Queensdale. And it existed before champ loot bags, so you should probably think twice about what I said. In Frostgorge or Cursed Shore? Sure, I could see it being more about potential gold gain – even before the champ bags. I know the Penitent/Shelter was all about how easily you could have loot bags rain down on your head.

As for the Queensdale Train? It never died towards the end of the month. In fact it got bigger as more people flooded in to repeat out the achievements. I, personally, would do it that way. I got to know, loosely, about a dozen or so others who would be doing it that time of month.

also strictly speaking it often takes skill to follow an manual. most things in life its not knowing what to do, its gaining the skill to actually execute it. That said its fun to come up with your own methods, but that doesnt diminish the skill required to pull off something even with instruction.

Of course it doesn’t diminish the skill. But it does cheapen the achievement in a way, to have someone walk you through how to do it. So you still have to actually do it yourself, sure . . . but there is a lot more value internally in doing it yourself. Without the help. Figuring it out yourself.

There are 8 minute fights in other games where people can watch videos, and know exactly what to do, and still need to build skills at executing it. So still requires skill, if its well designed.

Sure. I watch Monster Hunter videos about how to greatsword Tigrex in the face so you never get in danger. Heck of a lot of skill needed, indeed. (And I recommend watching some of those fights for those who want to see active combat done well.)

But it’s a different matter entirely when you have the manual step by step next to you versus. And the type of game matters a lot too. Twitch action games do still require you to have the skills built up, either that or you keep doing it until you luck through it. Others, not so much . . .

. . . then there’s the ones which are . . .

Just . . . look up the Demifiend fight in Digital Devil Saga. This kind of challenge? It’s not about how to fight out of a manual, it’s not about reading the pattern and getting through it like it can be for a platformer boss. No, this is about knowing your enemy, knowing how to prepare (with a lot of grind, honestly) and a hefty helping of good fortune to avoid getting wasted by bad randomness.

I’m worried about the forums becoming overrun in complaints and flames on release day.

Hey Gaile?

Find someone on the Dev team and tell them they should get a teaser of sorts out for how Traits and Masteries are gonna change it up so we can actually get something new here to discuss? And bonus points if they can assure us there is leeway in the design so feedback can change what people think are Bad Moves?

Thanks!

So either I content myself that it’s out of my reach, or I begin to feel the developers have played a bit of a stupid joke on me – ’you’ll never be the best because you don’t have X gear, regardless of how asskickingly skilled you are.’

It’s a small enough difference in stats and so rough to get that nobody requires ascended to form groups around. So it not only feels like a small niggling disrespect of skill over gear, and a skinnerian masterstroke to encourage farming, it feels pointless for all of that.

. . . you think the developers are the ones judging you? No. Other players judging you over how awesome you are? Why should you care what randomXXGokuXX.9065 thinks?

What, that you’re some noob who can’t hang with him because you’re not in glowing tacky blue armor? So what? Do you really want to hang around people like that, or is this an excuse you give yourself to feel badly because you kinda want this thing and know it’s out of reach?

Seriously. This is a mindset which makes me puzzled. Are people really okay with themselves not being content unless they have the acceptance of people who don’t care about them or even know who they are? I mean, I know intellectually this is a thing which is real – it’s what sells sports cars and designer clothes. And $200 shoes. But . . . emotionally? Logically? It never scans to me why this matters to look awesome to others instead of being awesome to yourself.

So you got people who want to tell you to go shove off because you’re not cool enough. Pfft.

This is the beauty of a MMO – there’s always other people who will want you just because you’re cool with them. I wish I learned this back in the day before I grew to hate my main character in EverQuest because they were getting continually rejected. Because, you see, just because you got laughed off the l33t kiddies’ playground? There’s a whole yard full of rejects from that place who are itching to prove you don’t need those fancy clothes, or basketball skills, or whatever to be cool.

Go forth and find them, my friend, and get yourself some friends who (like the Inquest) don’t give a skritt. They exist. They would gladly have you. That’s how guilds work.

Grinds for a small-yet-nigglingly-present power difference? In Guild Wars? Cardinal sin, to me.

Goddess of Truth you must have hated getting Holy Lightbringer.

Lheimroo.2947:

I will agree with DavidH that what is missing in this game is a middle ground.

Things are either relatively easy to get or dishearteningly hard. The problem’s compounded by most of what’s considered ‘the best/most desirable stuff to have’ being accessible least randomly by just getting gold .. and farming gold is an activity which Devata and myself find fundamentally uninspiring, and neither of us, with our playstyle, I expect, accumulate it very fast.

I don’t actually accumulate it very fast either, when you consider what it would cost for Dusk. Or even The Lover if I wanted a ponybow. I’m just okay with that, because almost every other skin I could buy, I can afford to. I just don’t want to.

They could have doubled and tripled the token costs of the dungeon sets and I would seriously have been fine with it.

Nah, I’m preferring where it is right now. I don’t want to get bored of a dungeon before I get my armor from it. Not to mention if I actually luck out and need the Gift for a legendary.

But gold? Sure, it’s accessible everywhere.. but it’s needed for EVERYTHING. It creates this incentive to just go hard and do what it takes to get it as quick as possible, and it still ends up feeling like it’s not enough.

. . . meh.

You could gear up in Exotics for one character for less than 50 gold, if you don’t do Temple Armor. If you do you can do it in under 10 gold, since you’re mostly buying weapons.

The champ trains existed for a reason; people feel this compulsion from the game design: get gold, get better stuff. And yet it results in the most mind-numbingly samey gameplay.. unchallenging encounters repeated ad naseum.

Ah, nope. The champs trains existed because of “Monthly Champion Slayer”, “Monthly Event”, and so forth. It was seriously the least stressful way to do it, and it just moved from wherever it was easier to wherever it was more profitable depending on what people wanted.

Honestly I think the trains in Cursed Shore and Frostgorge Sound are just out for getting the named Exotics out of the coffers/strongboxes there. Because there’s always a demand for them, especially that hammer. What’s it called, Entropy?

Not only that, but with prices fluctuating and gradually rising continually, it replicates the same feeling I had such a problem with in WoW and other gear-grind-centric games.. the feeling that if you aren’t moving forward full speed you’re falling behind.

It helps if you just set your sights on functional and put the thought of “awesome” on the back burner. No, seriously, it does help if you don’t try to set a quota for your periods of play and just realize you are . . . in fact . . . always taking a step towards it. It’s a mental exercise worth pursuing.

The Liadri mini and title.. a straight out skill challenge. —- ‘Blazing Light’ is a wicked awesome thing to have, and it was never a grind.

It was to me, I’m sorry to say. That place was not friendly to my play style and forced me outside of the nice box where I have fun playing the game. It was a chore, not fun, which is why it felt like a grind and made me really stop and go “nope, I don’t want this that bad, enjoy everyone else . . . I’m off to go deforest Orr again”.

It’s very much a “your mileage may vary” thing.

At least with dungeons, fractals, pvp, Liadri, at least it’s challenging or mentally stimulating. And you get an item directly through skill, with relatively little repetition.

Or, if you don’t get it, relatively lots of repetition. Or if you cheese it like people learned how to . . . no skill at all and just following a manual. I mean, I don’t like using walkthroughs to figure out how to beat something. I like to give it a shot first, and if I can’t do it . . .then figure it out. Otherwise, what’s the point? It’s like I’m not actually playing the game – I’m playing it for someone else.

1/2

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I remember Colin mentioning in an interview a few months ago that they aren’t working on Polymock at the time. I remember quite well because I was pretty disappointed when I read it.

I remember asking someone about it and they pretty much said what I did – technical issues, then “we don’t have time”.

It’s sad, but there is only so many hours in the day and so many people who are around to work on this stuff.

Deadcell.9052:

I enjoy doing most of these things as well, a lot of this is fun challenging content and its a very rewarding on a personal level, but heres my issue and maybe this is a whole other topic but why is zerging down a risen chicken in Orr with 40+ players more rewarding than solo’ing a champion or finishing all the jumping puzzles or spending several hours fighting 2 other servers over Stonemist? Why are mindless task so much more rewarding than anything remotely challenging in this game?

. . . do you want the honest truth? Because they can’t realistically balance loot rewards that way.

Oh, they can try. I know I can think up a vague sort of framework for how. I’m sure you and about ten others in this thread could put their minds to it and come up with something they feel is fair. But it wouldn’t work out, because every single system we’d come up with would be gamed and broken by the kind of people who like to seek a way to profit somehow for the least amount of work.

And if it can be gamed, and the reward is actually of value somehow? Oooh you got a problem there with how valuables enter the game. And that in turn makes it harder to balance rewards later when it’s out of balance already with how much is in the system.

I mean, that’s the long answer. The short answer of why farming bags in WvW is more lucrative than killing a single champion solo? Volume . . . but you already knew that one.

You’re not baffled about the reward scheme itself and how it’s doled out. You’re baffled about why you can’t get anything to show for these personal things of your own to remember. You want to have something concrete about these feats you do and want to always cherish.

. . . it’s not possible. See, that is something that is about the intangibles and the unexpected. Not everyone values these things, these experiences. And those who do, like myself . . . probably would find a reward at the end of it a carrot misplaced and wrongly used. There’s no reason to earn a medal or a Shiny Thing for doing something, there’s the simple act of doing it.

It’s like mountain climbing, or the whole wind-soaring suit with the wings on the arms and legs. Or running a marathon. People do it not because they want the rewards, but because it’s there for them to do.

Vanthian.9267:

Blaeys.3102:

• Polymock
• Bar Brawl
• Archery Contest

You mean the mini games they said would be in the different cultural cities when the game launched? Guess they decided instead of doing what they said at the launch of the game they would just wait and charge you for it later. Good old Anet.

From what I heard, there was problems getting Polymock to work properly in the current framework as opposed to how it worked in GW1 so it wound up cut for time and then never gone back to pick up.

Like so much other stuff they wanted to put in and opted not to. R.I.P. Lore entries or the old area loading screens with small text blurbs . . .

Ayrilana.1396:

You don’t understand what I was arguing which is probably why you’re still saying it doesn’t ruin the difficulty.

Imagine that you’re playing a game that let’s you save at anytime you wish. You then encounter a very difficult boss with mechanics that must be learned to beat it. Rather than learn the mechanics, you play it and make constant saves each time the fight is going desirable. When it doesn’t go desirable, you just re-load to the previous save. You continue to do this until you’ve beaten the boss. At no point during the 100’s of attempts did you learn the mechanics as you relied on luck and brute-forcing your way through the boss encounter by abusing the save feature. There was no sense of failure.

It’s known as “save skitten”, and is also “save stating” like with Super Mario World ROMhacks – often treated as THE way to beat the really tough ones like Kaizo. But also the only “sane” way to tackle combat in the original XCom games – save every turn and if you eat a grenade or half your squad gets panicked by an unseen alien, quit and reload. I admit to using this trick early on because it’s so soul-crushingly hard to survive them anyway. If I ever streamed a game, though, or did a Let’s Play? Would probably not do it.

The same would occur in this game if players had the option to immediately restart the fight if they messed up. They could keep restarting the fight and attempting until they eventually got lucky. All of these fights are very simple so it would only be a matter of time before they succeeded. Like in the previous example, the sense of failure was removed.

It’s why I somewhat love throwing tough fights to players in my D&D campaign – while they know I’ll make sure not to just squash them, they also know there is a definite chance they will make it out alive. Not intact, per se, but alive – one time I did have a character lose an eye until they could get it regrown. (And it was not cheap.)

But video games? Tough call. In a lot of senses the earliest platformers and games had a sense of difficulty because of soul-crushing instakills. What do I mean? Mega Man 1, Guts Man; Mega Man 2, Quick Man; Castlevania Whichever, the Godd*** Bats or Medusa Heads over pits. Baldur’s Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast, that darn demon at the end of the extra content . . .

. . . but then there’s the insanity which is “I Want To Be The Guy: The Movie: The Game”.

There’s a fine balance of difficulty where you can put checkpoints or restarts just often enough not to be frustrating but not too scarce as to make you want to scream when you die/fail. A lot of games don’t get it right. And some even tend to rely less on skill than on getting that lucky combination to come off which gets you through.

They’re not very fun to do.

DavidH.7380:

Lazaar.9123:

It’s a good thing open world PvP will actually never happen. Thread is hypothetical.

You’ve gotta admit, it would be one heck of an April Fools prank. RaceWars 2: Open world PvP, everyone not of your race is hostile to you, turning Tyria into a giant gankfest for one day!

Add in changing the loot icons of junk to look like Precursors and you have one heck of a fun day

DavidH.7380:

In fairness to Devata, that isn’t his only, or maybe even his primary issue. When he talks about what he really wants, it seems his biggest issue is that he finds hunting down, directly obtaining, and collecting rewards to be the main thing he enjoys.

Quite. It’s why people liked the RNG in GW:EOTN dungeons way back – you knew which dungeon you did, and you did that one til you puked trying to get, say, a Froggy Stick for your mesmer. It’s why people put up with the Mini Polar Bear having an abysmal drop rate too – you knew where you had to farm.

But me? I don’t see a difference between “farm it by doing the same area and laying waste to every living creature to try to earn the drop” and “grinding it out via tokens or Karma”.

I love the idea of diversifying loot into places where it can be easier acquired if you want to put some work into it. I once suggested letting events end in vendors who might sell precious skins but for Karma and being “Account Bound on Acquire” and nonsalvageable. (Why? To prevent you from flipping Karma -> Coin like they had to nerf the heck out of early on.)

This is typically considered a farm, but with a low enough drop rate it comes dangerously close to the precise definition of grind that Colin gave, and the RNG can be frustrating, so the game typically makes stuff less directly farmable but allows it to be purchased with gold or tokens.

I personally think Karma should be the key resource for that sort of thing. It’s non transferrable, but easy enough to earn by playing . . . well, whatever you want to be doing. Seriously. Everything earns karma in some fashion, it seems, short of chests. Perfect currency to use, actually, so long as you can curtail the transition of Karma -> Coin and keep it at a reasonable level.

That fixes the problem of people complaining that they’ve killed 10,000 ice elementals and never gotten a mini, but it causes a new problem for people like Devata who can’t practically farm the drop directly and for whom farming tokens or gold and buying the item negates all the fun of getting it.

I played Monster Hunter. You know what “fun” I had trying to get some of the high-level monster parts in order to make high-level armor just to survive to fight high-er level monsters? I’m going to tell you it starts with Jack and the second part rhymes with skritt.

I like items being able to be traded off. Especially the Ascended Materials for armor, which . . . hey, could alleviate the problem of getting the resources if your guild or some members are okay donating for the heck of it. (I know way back before our alliance did in fact take up collections and do extra runs for a fellow member who really wanted to have his Paragon in Obsidian Armor. We helped pitch in, and they got it with what felt like a minimum of fuss.)

Of course, getting out of the “whaaa! grind!” and “do the work or do without!” cycle would be the first step to getting anywhere, so I was trying to see if I could prod things past the grind issue and on to more of a, “yeah, there is grind, but lets talk about if there is enough other stuff you can find something to do and enjoy anyway” direction.

Yeah, but the problem is the stuff I find fun just isn’t about the same thing as what others find fun. What I find fun is just doing stuff and not caring about whether I could be 10% more effective if I bothered grinding out Ascended, or if I should be swording on my ranger for the DPS change, or if I should just chuck it in a bin and go Guardian . . . or worrying about whether I should Forge a ton of Greatswords and hope Dawn pops out . . .

I care less about stuff and more about experiences. Even being a collector type of person who likes having some particular trinkets (my MTG collection for starters), it’s not the end of the world if I never complete it. What I care about more is rifling through the cards now and then and building another deck just to see if a theory or theme works. It’s not trying to have the most valuable card ever (I linked it earlier up thread, and I swear, that’s insane) or even winning tournaments. It’s sitting back and being able to riff on the game, or my deck, or just chatter up with friends or random people over the cards.

I value experiences well above stuff. I’m just sort of a freak that way.

. . . no. No I do not. I had it before in previous games and having to watch my back the whole time and freak out when I notice another player making a beeline for me or seeming to come too close?

I don’t like that feeling. I like the feeling of “oh, cool, someone else” this game gave me from day one. Well, day minus one to be technical.

My first MMO was built with that sort of PvP in mind. If you weren’t in a city, you were fair game to anyone who wanted to kill you and could follow through. Only way out was to Alt+F4 or yank your modem – and you got penalties if you did it repeatedly to dodge combat you didn’t want to take part in anyway. I hated every minute of it because every time I went out to actually play the game I had to either keep an eye out or have a friend to watch my back and hope they could help me chase someone off.

My second game made it impossible to Alt+F4 because it’d just keep you logged in on signal loss for a bit. And oh boy was it easier to just get plastered by someone you didn’t see coming in fifteen to thirty seconds . . . with a greater degree of loss potentially. Again, cities were perfectly safe . . . but then, you couldn’t play the game just in the city. Not really.

I don’t want that. Ever again. I think it fosters a paranoia and attitude which is entirely counter to the feeling Guild Wars 2 wants to engender in its players.

And I don’t need to think, I know, if that gets added? If I gotta watch my back from people who see this as a fun game to go whack-a-mole people just because they can get away with it? Yeah, I know I’m going to actually demand a refund.

DavidH.7380:

I think it is fair for everyone to want to have stuff that is achievable at their level/skill/dedication/style, but also means having to accept that most people aren’t going to be able to get everything that exists to be obtained, or even close to it. From what you’ve said before, I think that is a reality you acknowledge as well, but that tends to get overlooked as people argue about one side or another as if they aren’t all necessary to keep as many players as possible happy and playing.

If it was clear to people that you aren’t trying to argue that grind should be eliminated, but rather that you want so see added ways to obtain stuff directly from existing content, then you might find people less inclined to instinctively oppose your ideas. I find people tend to be fairly accommodating of other play styles as long as they don’t see the requests as damaging to other’s play and rewards.

See, that’s not my problem with how this has been going on. It’s not about wanting an assurance my play won’t be damaged because of this – frankly it’s survived worse thanks to NPE. (Yes, I just said something negative about the game. Be shocked.)

My problem is with how grind has been continually redefined by each person who has taken part here – mostly so they can disagree with the one Colin provided. And yet there hasn’t been a “so grind is a subjective measurement” agreement despite all evidence that it is subjective to the person. There’s attempts to paint farming as grind, because it’s repetition. There’s attempts to paint trying to beat the RNG as grind, which is silly because it’s RNG and the simplest way to beat it is to avoid getting attached to a prize from it. There’s attempts to put “grind” on a routine I put up here which is pretty much the second most casual way to play the game short of using a pair of dice to influence what you do.

My problem is how the argument continues to ignore fine details like, oh, facts . . . in favor of whipping up an anti-grind sentiment. I find it noble to aspire to that ideal of a game with no grind, but I find it . . . a little misguided to think it is possible to actually think it plausible on a broad scale like an MMO. Even Minecraft is grindy.

At the end of all this, my problem is how it’s really just complaining about something you don’t like. Something which you don’t like and aren’t forced to partake in, but you want the results anyway. You just don’t think you should put in the work, because it’s beneath you. Because it’s a game, and it’s meant to be fun, so why don’t you let me have fun? I mean I could do all this other stuff but I want the shiny thing and it’s no fun if I don’t have it.

It’s really time to just chill out. You’re supposed to want the shiny thing, yes. You’re supposed to have to put in the time to get it or the money to circumvent it, sure. The fun part comes when you stop and look at it and realize you don’t need it to have fun, and you certainly don’t need it now to have fun. These things are valuable commodities because they are hard to get, either through effort or through RNG. And people want them. You want them to be cheaper? Stop paying extravagant prices for them.

But if you want to have fun . . . and your fun is dependent on things? Rather than people, rather than the experiences? Maybe you should think about that.

The Aetherblades remind me so, so much of the Peacekeeper mercenaries from “War in Kryta” in that they’re more intelligent and capable of so much damage if you’re not careful . . .

Then there’s the Modus Sceleri goons out there, whose events are all rather interesting.

Seriously, if the old world got a slow revamp to include more things like this, I wouldn’t complain at all.

Lheimroo.2947:

But god help you if you decide to achieve anything; then it’s grindy as hell.

If Anet doesn’t have a giant red alarm going off at hearing that thought process I don’t know what would cause the giant red alarm to go off.

. . . really? Anything?

Jumping puzzles? Completing your Personal Story? Doing dungeons . . . once, for the title? The boss achievements? Map completion? Wardrobe, for things lower than Rare? These things are grindy?

Fighting (and beating) a champion with nothing more than you and whatever you can bring in with you, because you want to prove you can? This is grindy?

Taking Stonemist Castle in a three way battle which makes the game bog down pretty harshly, going on fifteen minutes of back and forth . . . barely hanging in there and when you can picking up people on the edge of the battle? That experience is grindy?

Getting a few of your friends together to go knock down each of the Temples in Orr on a whim because you’re all bored and want to do something? That’s grindy?

Logging on one night and chilling out in Divinty’s Reach with some total strangers just roleplaying about all sorts of minor things? This is grindy?

. . . but, by comparison, the titles in this company’s previous entry into gaming? This isn’t?

I’m at a loss here.

Honestly, I stopped at just rares until I had a clear shot at Temple Armor and took it like a discount sale on a good flat-panel television. Didn’t notice all that much change except in WvW.

. . . I died to zergs about 3 seconds slower.

Windsagio.1340:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m just going to be happy they weren’t inspired by NetHack or other roguelikes.

But man, if they could make truly procedurally generated content work for a mMO ><

I don’t think they can, really. The closest which happens is a Minecraft server open to X number of players. (I’ve seen up to triple digits, though no telling if it’s all at once.) Diablo 3 has its own small version of it, though Diablo 2 had a more focused procedural generation in how it created the first two act maps – rarely would it be exactly in the same arrangement.

Actually, recalling Lost Dungeons of Norrath, I’m sure they can write a way for it to happen. I’m just not sure if there’s a market for that level of RNG design in an MMO. If people complain about the grind now . . . oooh, imagine if it was a matter of RNG whether they see content at all?

Roguefire.8174:

I know what happens when Teq fails, I was wondering if any other world bosses have a event at failure like this?

It has less an event and more an effect but I think Megadestroyer makes the interior of the volcano impassable (auto-down) when you fail it. I know that used to happen when it had nothing anyone wanted.

The Ulgoth event, when failed, kicks the Seraph out and they need to climb the last few parts of the event again to return for another shot.

And, of course . . . the Temples continue to be “on” when failed, and thus the statues across Orr are infuriatingly still active.

I’m just going to be happy they weren’t inspired by NetHack or other roguelikes.

Labjax.2465:

I feel there is some information in Colin’s post – just not much to go on:

we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

This doesn’t tell me a whole lot, but it does seem to imply that the days of “go complete an absurdly specific objective to unlock your trait” will be over. That’s what I get from simplified anyway.

It’s not much and I understand if people are feeling like this is kind of a meaningless spotlight. I got something out of the post, but not enough to really talk about it, other than as a confirmation that something is going to happen finally.

Given pretty much that and other things heard whispered in the wild? Yeah, there’s a lot being worked on.

I’ll point to my post above which was trying like heck to be on topic – here – and feel out how these systems are related.

Devata.6589:

“I have a hard time picturing any necessary rewards which have this pattern”
Oow really, can you finally stop with all the necessary crap. NOTHING is necessary. If we where to take that seriously the whole subject of grind did not exist in any game as nothing is necessary.

No, I’m not going to stop with it, because you are trying to tell me to. And with bad hyperbolic examples too. Find something with better teeth than “playing the game is optional too” and I’ll take your request more seriously.

Just as much as I do not need to get a cool skin. It’s a choice. Some people say WoW is grindy because you ‘need’ to grind for the BiS gear what is funny as I played it for some time but never grinded for BiS gear. The whole ‘need’ is nonsense.

Congratulations, you made my point. Now be quiet on trying to chastise me.

I will make a example for you step by step to show you how people run into this grind wall you don’t seem to see.

I know how people run into it and see it as grind. I know how it develops because I watch it outside of MMOs, and saw it years before with Magic: The Gathering. “It’s too expensive to play and requires loads of time to find the right cards.” Bullcrap. People have made decks out of nothing but commons worth less than $10 and had them shred decks people spent $200 on. I should know because I made one of those.

So, no, you don’t need to sit down and try to give me a numbered list like I need to be led to the emergency exit. Thanks.

That still doesn’t change two things: this is something you choose to do rather than you are forced to do, and it has little impact on your performance in the game. I again will point to exhibit A – Obsidian Armor, and tell you . . .

. . . you guessed it. Go. Fish.

“I play how I want to play, what I want to play, and when I want”. That is great. All the people who complain about the grind wished they could do the same but they feel to get what they like the only option is grind.

First, not my problem. I’m not their parent, I’m not their guardian, and I’m probably not their designated raider. They want to do it, fine, just don’t come to me trying to convince me it was necessary you spent $100 on those cool shoes because everyone else was wearing them. K, thx, bai.

Second, I respect their God-given right to free will. And if their free will drives them to touch the burning log while complaining about it being too hot, I’m definitely going to roll my eyes.

Third, and final. I listed what I did, which is in a relatively casual play period. I listed roughly how much I make because it was claimed gold was too hard to grind out. I replied as people proceeded to assume I did the same thing, every day (or every login) and felt the need to try to parse my words to paint me as a grinder. Gold isn’t hard to come by, so long as you are patient. The big ticket items with all the neat particle effects and the “ooh neat”? Yeah, I have yet to hear someone explain exactly why they feel 900 Gold is worth having a tree planted in your home instance you can get Elder Wood Logs (once a day) from when Pagga’s Waypoint provides me with considerable more . . . every few hours, should I feel the need to return there later.

If you want to keep championing for the downtrodden grinders, you need to step up your rhetoric because I’ve seen it all before and there’s nothing new here. In fact, you keep repeating the same thing. “It’s grind because I say it’s perceived as grind.” Lovely for you guys, I’m happy you feel that way. But you’re tilting at the wrong windmill here – your real enemy isn’t grind, it’s the RNG which makes specific items rare enough to have the price high enough you feel it’s a necessary grind.

And now, I’ve spent enough time fighting against the “no, I say you’re wrong because I said so” tide, so I’m going to go entertain myself watching Chuck and Seamus lampoon really bad video game writing/construction.

In the meantime, maybe you can come up with some better retort than “I say it is so it must be so”. I’ve at least sat down in good faith and laid out a time-frame for my play, what I can do and earn in that time, and what other options I might employ to have fun. All you’ve done is point to people who are not speaking up other than to parrot the same sentiment above: it’s grind because we say it’s grind and we have to do it because we must get the shiny.

(. . . they don’t need to make skritt playable, most people already play them it seems.)

Astralporing.1957:

Seera.5916:

I got the impression that traits would be earned like they will for masteries. I did not take that to be that you will be level 80 before you can unlock the traits. Just that they will be earned like masteries.

That would be a problem, since the whole masteries system will be locked for HoT owners only.

. . . or are certain branches (the Maguuma Jungle bits) locked? That’s a good question to think on, devs, and think about some rework.

Devata.6589:

That does not mean what you do is what somebody else basically has to do to earn get a reward and what is grind for them. Because exactly what you describing is what many people do or feel they have to do if they want to get a rewards simply because grinding gold is the only way and this is one of the most effective ways to grind gold.

It might not be grind for you, you might not do it for the gold and you might even just do it for fun but that does not mean it’s the grind other people talk about.

. . . they have to do in order to get a reward? I have a hard time picturing any necessary rewards which have this pattern of “do whatever I feel like doing tonight without any structure aside from tagging along with the gang”. It’s not even really grind since there’s really not a goal in mind to be grinding for. Unless you want to claim that’s grind, in which case I really don’t know what ‘grind’ is anymore.

But, yeah, you’re not listening to me anyway. You still are playing “pin the grind on the poster”. I play how I want to play, what I want to play, and when I want (or have time) to play. I pick something and go do it not for the reward but because “I want to do that today”.

. . . you want to pin “grind” on that?

Like I said before, go fish.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I guess I’m not a ranger. I mean, I’ve Lightning Reflex’d off a cliff to a smaller cliff under it then gotten massacred by AoEs . . . but never done weapon skills off a cliff.

It helps I tend towards longbow/shortbow/axe&whatever . . .

(laugh) So you never dodged leaped, with a shortbow, off a cliff?

I have not accidentally done so. Off a wall, intentionally, yes. Quickest way out of a tower being taken.

Dirlettia.5861:

Have to say I personally am not happy about a system being changed to accomodate an expansion, even though you may not have access to the expansion but are still bound by its progressions.

In other words, if we dont have HoT we should keep earning skill/trait points as per normal as we will not be earning masteries at all.

Traits were due to be changed anyway – this was made clear LONG into the original topic. But the developers were looking into what people expected or to keep offering up criticism which had some more to it than “these suck” or “revert plz”. Timing it to go live either before or with the expansion makes sense from a logistical point of view – it gives them a time frame to work on it, it isn’t getting (hopefully) rushed out to be out ASAP (like the last one), and thus it structures who needs to work when and on what.

Traced.3495:

I really want to hear about the new trait system, I hope it’s soon.

But I don’t like where this progression thing is going at all, including masteries. I don’t like quests, unlock quests, or anything that resembles those too much. I enjoyed this game when I didn’t have to deal with stuff I don’t want to do.

Would you care about them the same if it was not barring Primary Progression through the content, and was only there for extras which may or may not be of interest? Such as:

Needing to have a Lore Mastery level to open up somewhere which would be on average like a Guild Puzzle?

Or needing the hang glider to reach the start of a jumping puzzle along the top of the canopy?

Or being able to kill Husks same as always, only a Combat Mastery now makes it so you can nullify the “Tough Bark” for 20s?

Or language knowledge offering more dialogue to talk with people on branches you couldn’t see before, not unlike having certain branches only available for race/class/order choices?

Okay, well, until such time as we actually GET any further insight, we could look at what we do have?

We know they said the current system is going away but Traits are likely to remain rather than disappear entirely. We know they want to use Masteries as a means of expanding on what might be possible rather than making it run off the Traits framework . . .

. . . so the Masteries concept is intended to supplement Traits rather than replace it. If I may be so bold as to offer my interpretation of the design choice?

Traits are a more macro-level of what your character learns how to do. They apply more broadly, to more situations. They’re meant to be the sort of enrichment which can work in the whole game rather than narrowly focused. This is why they are meant to be swapped and switched around with, since they might not always apply but have broad situational use.

Masteries are micro-level in comparison. They’re tightly focused on one particular problem. Hang-gliding, navigation of jungle shortcuts, learning to speak the locals’ language, finding weak points in specific types of enemies. They’re meant to always be on, because they have a narrow situational use.

Ashen.2907:

But my previous post was meant to be a lighthearted DnD snob jab at the bolded portion of the quote…“4E.” Oh ick.

I know. Hence the smiley at the end.

Honestly, since most at the table had only heard of D&D and not played, and the two who hadn’t had gone through every previous edition with at least a four-session game to each? We determined the 4e was a good bet as it was current (meaning easy/cheap to get the rules legally) and if we ran into a sticky rules question it was more likely we could find someone to help.

There is literally very little I can’t do in 4e which I could do in 3.5/3rd. And there was a lot of things I can do in the three successive editions than I could do in 2nd. So, meh. I’m hesitant to buy 5th yet if only because I can’t do that to my players – I already retooled this off 3.5 before I started it, doing it mid-campaign seems . . .

. . . well, like introducing NPE

Ashen.2907:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I have a D&D group on hiatus where I’m trying to restructure the game so we can have a “refresher session” where everyone re-learns how to play 4e when we can meet again.

No wonder your group went on an eight month hiatus.

I kid….

mostly.

Well, it started with a move – helping one player move and he lost his materials. I have copies of everything but he was really attached to those dice. So he opted to wait until he could find “another set I like”. Another player herniated his back at work, another lost his job and had to go searching, and I hit a period at my job where I was pretty much going closing shift the first day and opening shift the next.

Yeah, RL hit us all pretty freaking hard.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

You’re not a ranger until weapon ability off a cliff.

I guess I’m not a ranger. I mean, I’ve Lightning Reflex’d off a cliff to a smaller cliff under it then gotten massacred by AoEs . . . but never done weapon skills off a cliff.

It helps I tend towards longbow/shortbow/axe&whatever . . .

Devata.6589:

I did not say you did that every night. So no need to repeat that. The thing is that many people do that because they want something and the only way they can get it is by making gold and to get that gold they exactly do what you describe there. For them it’s not about ‘things to do’ it’s about making gold. Then it does become grinding. It’s very nice that you happen to like those things other might not.

Hunting down an item, you know the thing I like to do is not really an option other then grinding gold. So I kinda stopped caring about that, but that also means a huge part of the end-game is none-existing in GW2.

Yeah, but you’re not listening . . . you’re focused on the “I make gold” part, or “I do this for Crests” or whatever.

I don’t. I don’t do it for the gold because I want the gold, or need the gold, or have a goal in mind. I do it because it’s something to do. Why, oh why, do you think I compare this all to GW1’s title grind? I didn’t start that until I ran out of other things to do either.

Seriously, we’re speaking past each other here. You’re obsessed with trying to pin grind on the post I made and the subsequent ones talking about it. (And you’re not alone.) It’s not grind so much as “meh, don’t have anything better to do” and still wanting to play the game rather than find some other game.

And, notably, I have found other games. I actually came up with a Settlers of Catan variant I play with my friends which basically doubles the board and adds in all the neat expansion ideas we liked while leaving some out due to clunk factor. I have a D&D group on hiatus where I’m trying to restructure the game so we can have a “refresher session” where everyone re-learns how to play 4e when we can meet again. I have a 3DS where I’ve got Bravely Default, Etrian Odyssey Untold, and Pokemon.

. . . I choose to play GW2 in the midst of all this, and it’s because I find it relaxing, interesting, and fun.

Go fish somewhere else. I’m not grinding or farming because I want something and need to meet some internal quota to reach it. I am playing the darn game as I see fit and enjoying myself. Especially when the WvW nights have some actual play going on instead of “let’s take their stuff while they sleep”.