Guild Wars 2

I have to skip it, mostly because work had me by the metaphorical balls all weekend with the schedule. Check it, four to eleven, followed by noon to eleven, followed by three to eleven, followed by one to eleven . . . to be followed by one to eleven again.

Thank God for overtime pay.

Azhure.1857:

Nothing that you “grind” for in this game is required in order to play the game. Not even the vast majority of the endgame. As others have already stated — too many of you are forcing it upon yourselves. Not ArenaNet. Just yourselves. But you don’t want to hear that…. so I’m pretty much wasting my time right now.

No, you’re grinding forum rep. Keep going, you might make the Forum Warrior title, hehe

I think a lot of them realize it’s their choice, but would find it easier to shout “Skinner Box”. After all, within a Skinner Box it’s also a choice to continue or to seek something . . . it’s just that the choice is in a different context.

Games are interesting that way. I find games which don’t have even a minor amount of “grind” are not usually played as often. And when there’s more than a single player around the table/game the threshold seems to change wildly depending on if the players actually can get along with each other.

McWolfy.5924:

Grind: the skill is not enough, you must to farm specific contents to be able to play something else.

Very loosely translated: “Every game is grindy”. Gods, even Catan sounds grindy under that interpretation.

Unless “playing something else” means “taking the game out and putting another one in”.

Hmm.

While I agree the writing needs help in some fashion, you’re not making a good case for yourself in how you present yourself. It’s the sort of thing which doesn’t get you hired, and gets you “we’ll call you” as an answer.

I’d like to see what you could come up with. Heck I’d like to see what I could come up with if I really tried to redefine the game. Much like you, I’ve opted to instead save it for if I ever get a chance to run another D&D campaign. Or Ars Magica, in fact.

Pockets.3201:

The vast majority of the Silverwastes, the most recent area they gave us to keep us busy, is grind.

Grind events to get badges to get extractors to grind breach/vinewrath bosses for parts/carapace boxes for the collections.

Sure, its optional, but this is the content they want us to do.

Technically, the whole game is grind if you look at it that way. Grind events to get the stuff or the experience, or the achievements. Grind WvW for its stuff. Grind dungeons for their stuff. Grind anything you want for gold so you can buy more stuff you don’t need.

. . . honestly, it’s thankfully less of a grind than real life is.

Fernling.1729:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ascended is grindy as heck.

It also is either “not mandatory” or “not BiS if downleveling”. Someone did the math once and showed it might be better to have an Exotic in there instead of Ascended in certain cases.

I’m pretty sure you hit a power cap in some lower level zones, not counting might. If I’m correct, didn’t look too much into it, ascended gear didn’t provide anything over exotic. Not even bloodlust sigil would take you over the cap.

Pretty much what I recall hearing, though nobody was clear on “how low”. That plus the fact its stat boost is mostly useless and the main reason for it (Agony Resistance being possible) doesn’t matter outside of Fractals (yet) . . .

It’s mostly just showy, flashy junk which in some cases doesn’t look as nice as lesser armor or weapons.

Ascended is grindy as heck.

It also is either “not mandatory” or “not BiS if downleveling”. Someone did the math once and showed it might be better to have an Exotic in there instead of Ascended in certain cases.

Ah, it’s another Logan-bashing thread. How neat, it’s been ages since I saw one.

I anticipate Logan teasing Rytlock about “running away” into the Mists after his sword and then burying the whole thing under piles of Mordrem.

draxynnic.3719:

I don’t think anyone is expecting ArenaNet to actually devote the resources to make a genuine language. At best we’re probably going to see a substitution cipher.

They already did have one, back in Eye of the North. Check out the whole questline around Kerrsh.

Tachenon.5270:

S2 SPOILERS below, just in case.

Don’t look, Ethel!

If sylvari don’t have hearts, what vital organ did Caithe stab to kill Wynne so quickly?

Some vital part which functions either as a heart or with similar “reliance” from the body’s workings.

Someone needs to tell that to the sylvari who sit dead on the ground at Tequatl waiting to be resurrected.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

ICEing.9237:

I don’t know how to build my own sadly :/

It’s like legos. Read online, I did it myself from scratch, it’s not hard.

About the only thing you need is to at least be likely not to mess up the CPU installation into the socket. Yes. I have done this once.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

BrunoBRS.5178:

oh and here’s a picture of our new mursaat friends

Screw those guys. With a rusty infused ascended mace. No. No.

Mursaat are not friends, they’re a reason to swear at your monitor before you’re infused. They’re prime target number one after you can take them out. They are, quite literally, the last thing I would consider an ally.

I would consider allying with Flame Legion before allying with the mursaat. I would shave a charr before allying with the mursaat.

like i said in a following post, it might not be something that either party wants but they both need it.

we’re in a rush to kill mordremoth before they screw up a whole race (and then proceed to kill the rest of tyria), and the mursaat are living literally next to him.

Good. Let Mordremoth kill them and we can kill the dragon while he’s doing that. Win-win!

Also

Q: How tightly will the expansion content be sealed off from players who have not purchased it? What will be permitted to be used by “non-expansion” players and what will they need to buy the expansion for? To wit, will I need to buy it if I just want to have the new pretty weapon/armor skins which drop and are able to be traded? What about the new Borderlands, will only Expansion players be allowed to fight in there and thus impact the rest of WvW?

Q: Will the PvE not be terrible?

(Yes, got done watching that video.)

More seriously . . .

Q: Will the expansion have significantly different/higher minimum system requirements? If so, where would a baseline be for “adequately running 15-20 fps during major events”?

I remember the last game I played where language was a thing: EverQuest. It wasn’t a thing for long after release. Mostly only good for caster classes to decipher spell research recipes.

I’m entirely unfamiliar with current PC hardware, used to build my own computers until the multicore CPUs came along. Or the video cards which looked monstrous.

I’m wincing because I’m saving for a car first and knowing somehow I’m probably not going to be able to do that and afford upgrading for the expansion.

Is it time to start the Caromi scalp trade again? I think I have great-great-grandfather’s scalping knife around here somewhere.

BrunoBRS.5178:

oh and here’s a picture of our new mursaat friends

Screw those guys. With a rusty infused ascended mace. No. No.

Mursaat are not friends, they’re a reason to swear at your monitor before you’re infused. They’re prime target number one after you can take them out. They are, quite literally, the last thing I would consider an ally.

I would consider allying with Flame Legion before allying with the mursaat. I would shave a charr before allying with the mursaat.

It’s because I don’t see it costing more than the base game did, hence . . . $60.

Erukk.1408:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

And did I hear O’Brien letting it slip at the beginning that most of the sylvari have turned?

I do believe he did. He said something along the lines of “Most of the race was corrupted/turned.”

Player Sylvari – they are the 1%

Time to set aside $60 for this, just in case.

GuzziHero.2467:

Anet is anti-RP. Sorry, but thats the fact of it. Walling off areas where we could go to find peace, refusing point-blank to reduce emote range so as not to affect non RPers, and megaservers with no official RP shard.

Are they anti-RP or do they just not support it as much as people would like? There is a difference.

JurahEscorial.9147:

Hmm.. Anet has over 300 employees (more than needed to keep up balance updates and living story seasons) and they do know that they have to deliver something new at some point.. So they will likely have interesting news to announce

Then again people built up high hopes -> easy to get disappointed..

My guess: Some will rage for a while, Some will quit.. Most will stay and keep on playing

So . . . business as usual?

EverQuest was an interesting case. They added a small bit of content early on before their first expansion but it was buggy and disconnected. They removed an equal amount of content in the form of items determined to be “considerably broken”. (Box of Nil Space, Rubicite, some rogue armor…) They would continue the tradition of adding things between expansions, but all of it being either pointless or pretty broken anyway.

Until one expansion which was almost no “content” and simply a lot of dungeons which were repeatable and grindy. Which was when I took my money elsewhere. Strangely, I did go back and check them out, and while they were fun . . . the repetition required was . . . just . . . no. Squandered interesting ideas for the sake of grind and gear inflation.

God I miss Meridian 59. At least its three actual content expansions had merit in them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Chaos Orb (given by Countess Anise, then infused through Thaumanova with “chaos magic”. . . suspected to be a misnomer of dragon energy)

Correction: The Inquest added dragon energy to chaos magic, thinking the two to be the same. That’s what caused the explosion – mixing chaos and dragon energies without knowing. Explained by Ellen Kiel if you talked to her during Fractured! after doing the fractal – and again later during A Study in Scarlet

I haven’t done that fractal experience. I couldn’t find anyone interested in it at the time (after learning Scarlet was involved somehow) and definitely nobody is interested now. I say “suspected” because I do recall someone covering the Thaumanova matter and saying “chaos energy? Oh, no, it was dragon energy”.

And I also said “suspected” because I never could prove it. Better to use a soft thing like that than stating outright it is so.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The Divine Fire is known to be associated with Ascension, specifically the last key to reaching the interior of Augury Rock while the vision crystal draws the attention of the Five Gods down to witness the fight against the Doppleganger. It is not yet known to be associated with Magdaer or Sohothin, which until recent developments were just copies of the “Fiery Dragon Sword” possessed by father and son of a prominent royal line. (The direct decent of it being through Orrian royal lines being debatable, and highly unknown at this time.)

Magdaer and Sohothin are actually the originals – the rest were the copies. But in Episode 8, it is stated that Divine Fire was a gift of the gods to both Forgotten and humans. It is also shown to be highly effective against dragon minions – or at least mordrem – while Foefire ghosts are immune to (Kralkatorrik’s) dragon corruption, and ghostfire which comes from said ghosts can burn through anything (relates to Ogden’s warnings of divine fire being deadly) but burns exceptionally fast through risen. Magdaer and Sohothin were also gifts from the gods.

Nothing solid, but the parallels are undeniable.

It’s strange the Divine Fire is a gift from the Human Gods, and it is exceptionally powerful against dragon minions – yet the gods chose to hide themselves rather than use it to defend themselves. And they do hide themselves – despite answering rituals (Priestess Rhie in the Temple of Grenth) they do not take any direct action. Yet if the Divine Fire has such potential, they could. So why, then, do they not? Topic for another day.

As for the Foefire, while there are parallels, and potentially a link? It’s unknown at this time. Since one source which could be definitively answered doesn’t have lucid moments (Adelbern) and others might not have the answer (Echo of Turai Ossa) . . . there’s only supposition.

. . . I’m still bothered by where Sohothin re-entered the world of Tyria from the Ring of Fire. Given the place erupted, it should have been unmade – gift of the Gods or no, the physical form should still have been destroyed. Clearly that is not so . . . why? And how did it become found?

Again, another topic for another day.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well . . . sylvari, for one.

Which is the very subject of debate and thus not a proper piece of evidence or support.

“Sylvari are different because the sylvari are different” is not that very convincing of an argument. That’s like looking at a question in a fantasy setting and shouting that the answer is “BECAUSE MAGIC!”

You need to show me a fantasy story where there is magic involved where “magic makes it so” isn’t a valid response to things such as “why can that person throw fire from their hands?”.

And the tautology stands. They are different from known dragon minions because they are different from known dragon minions. Said tautology also forms the basis of your argument, you just build off it in a different direction. My point, in the case of this argument, needs to point in the other direction at the conclusion I have chosen. Therefore, it’s natural I take it in the other direction and search out reasons why it may be plausible.

After all, your position was that it was not plausible.

Ronan’s influence/the reason Malyck is so similar to sylvari only hold an answer to their mentality – like the Forgotten ritual for Glint. It does not answer other questions, such as appearance (which, to me, you did not bring up sample support for countering with your “well Eyes and Mouths and Tequatl differ from standard mobs!” argument).

Why does each piece have to follow from where you decide it follows from? Curious.

And there is, so far, nothing about Malyck’s tree other than it exists and there are sylvari not born in the Grove in the world. Which raises the question . . . why is another tree producing sylvari who look similar enough to ones from this tree influenced by Ronan, assumedly without the influence of Ronan?

The only answer to draw from that is the seeds are intended to create trees like the Pale Tree and from there to generate sylvari which look as they do independent of outside influence. Ronan’s influence was in the mentality and morality of the Pale Tree. It is the only answer which can currently be chosen which is supported by evidence we have now.

If more evidence arises that Malyck’s tree also had a “Ronan” who influenced it, then a different conclusion can be reached – that these two trees generate sylvari while other seeds which made trees instead created mordrem. Starting, of course, from the assumption they are indeed created by Mordremoth in some fashion and are connected at all.

The prospect that sylvari simply consume “less” magic is an interesting one, but it brings up the question of why the Elder Dragons don’t consume magic slower to prolong their waking cycles.

. . . well, Mordremoth’s cycle started considerably late compared to the other dragons. Which have already awakened and are active. I think we just hit on a detail which is important – the sylvari are not feeding it power unlike the most of the other minions of the other dragons. So it was wakening almost entirely off ley line energies and having no active force out there feeding enough to fully awaken.

It is also something that would not go unnoticed when near magical artifacts unless it is so insignificant amount of magical consumption that they may as well not be consuming magic at all – which, again, begs the question of why don’t the Elder Dragons regulate this to avoid being forced into hibernation.

They may not be able to help themselves, having been asleep for so long. Like a thirsty person and a gallon of water – they will try to drink the whole thing even though it’s physically impossible to chug it all in one sitting.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Great! And the other two?

No canonical mention. Which was my point.

Well, my point is they had to have existed if a character began in Cantha or Elona so the story could happen. So why aren’t they mentioned? Aside, of course, from the GW2 lore being horribly Tyria-centric in many cases.

Lack of evidence is not the evidence of lacking. It’s on you to prove that there was, thus being usable as your argument that “destroyers didn’t go there despite magical energies there,” more than it is on me to prove that there wasn’t.

It’s also on you to prove some things which you claim but so far you have not. Such as the Pale Tree not drawing on magic, or how mordrem cannot be related in any way to the only other species of ambulatory vegetation on Tyria with intelligence.

I fail to see how seizing the closest magical locations near their breaching points and/or asura gates is any harder than traveling dozens if not hundreds of miles to seize and control other locales.

If that’s the case . . . again . . . why didn’t the Destroyers seek out other places of power? Unless that was not the primary purpose of that invasion, in which case we can deduce there are reasons to send out minions aside from draining magic. And from there it is a deduction to the potential existence of minions who are specifically made not to do so. To remain hidden as they travel until they reach the target.

And on that last part: do remember that we weren’t yet dealing with an Elder Dragon – just its minions. And I’m not so sure that Mordremoth “just is” aware, keep in mind that the tendrils ran along the ley lines, which were redirected by Scarlet – so it was made aware… then it got close to other magical objects/locations, and attacked (near) them too. Zhaitan didn’t collect artifacts in the temple of Abaddon for hundreds of years, either, despite proximity.

No, but it did have plenty of other things in Orr to consume based on some Personal Story tidbits. It still was feeding off the Temples, from all appearances.

We even had Linsey Murdock state that the quests going from Nightfall to Prophecies/Factions isn’t canon lore – as it would involve time travel of going back in time 3 years – but a mechanical facilitation to allow Nightfall-made players access to the other games.

Sure. That can be understood.

. . . but it doesn’t address the other things to make them non-canon. Only the ones cited.

The thing is you actually didn’t prove that the destroyer hive was there before the foundry was. Both are there before the actual mission, and both are there after the actual mission.

So where did you “point it out” that one came before the other?

Well, it was there before the mission ever became available to set up the foundry in the first place. You can find it on the way to Rata Sum for the first time, during which you cannot have the G.O.L.E.M quest in any form.

Ergo, it had to be there before the quest.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Also, if it was a settlement of Orr than it’s Orrian territory. Which means it’s effectively in Orr.

I am talking geography, not political borders. Orr is the peninsula. It was, geographically, part of the Tarnished Coast. Not Orr, like you claimed.

And there’s no way they were hinting at Zhaitan back in Prophecies, when the thought of Elder Dragons (very clearly given the number of retcons) did not exist in their heads.
[/quote]

Eye of the North, on the other hand was all about setting up the dragons. And that’s where “Shards of Orr” was added. To the Tarnished Coast since it couldn’t be added to Orr proper.

As for political or geographic boundaries – quickly, is the Dalada Uplands part of Ascalon? Depends on who you ask – the charr would say yes, the humans possibly might claim it but not as much as they would claim Ashford was in Ascalon. Boundaries are fluid with the times, and the situation.

. . . also hampered by the nature of it being a game, such as there being no “Far Shiverpeaks” in GW2 yet one location from such is still there – the Eye of the North.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And Eir’s been wrong before, not to mention other characters being mistaken on factual basis in the past.

But you have no basis for the likelihood that this one thing, in all of the things Eir mentions on the subject, is wrong. She was 100% accurate on the story of Jora and Svanir, and Jeff Grubb even referenced her mention of Drakkar drawing power from the Sons after their founding to aid Jormag rise.

I also didn’t say she was wrong, only mistaken. There is a difference.

The Sons of Svanir are like the Nightmare Court – you can choose to join them but leaving them completely is impossible. And those who do join them are drawn to the idea of power, but I’d say the choice isn’t entirely their own. Power at any price is what is offered, and no other lodge offers such a thing – for good reason. Much as the Nightmare Court promises freedom, so long as you follow their lead.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And it didn’t catch fire until the mursaat stepped in and helped push back the charr themselves, before vanishing with Saul and leaving Dorian in charge. In short, the mursaat created the White Mantle we see while Saul created the name and the basis of them.

I think the BMP and the fact that the Test of the Chosen (which is administered by knights who’s likely to be promoted to Justiciar) existed for at least 3 years prior to the Searing proves you wrong.

But this is irrelevant in the end.
[/quote]

Irrelevant to the fact of the sylvari? Yes. Relevant to the conversation? Sure.

And, I played the Bonus Mission Pack. The White Mantle in that was not the same as we see later, in that it was smaller and very lacking in members. Loyal members, naturally, but as I said – it didn’t catch on until much later when it was clear they had power.

Sort of reflects on how people are drawn to join the Sons of Svanir. Proof of power draws all sorts who would love to have a piece of it for themselves.

Edge of Destiny, page 221: “Svanir wandered the wastes in madness, attacking any who came near.”

Doesn’t sound like the description of someone who’d establish his own cult.

I don’t know, there was an intelligence behind his madness, a series of choices on how to torment Jora with the knowledge it was her brother behind this all. All it takes is one person to see the Nornbear at work and bow in reverence and a cult has been sparked.

Leadership through example. It’s certainly possible. Probability is another story.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s not necessary they look like mordrem, especially if their appearance was influenced, as we now can agree through lore Konig has provided.

You’ll have to forgive me, but what lore that I’ve provided shows this, exactly?

You provided the lore about the sylvari resembling humans due to Ronan’s influence.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Which was debunked – in a way – back in 2009. It was stated that the sylvari’s humanoid appearance is due to the Pale Tree shaping them to be roughly humanoid due to the influence from Ronan. Got nothing to do with corpses.

I mean, unless you didn’t say that.

tigirius.9014:

Move on, because other companies deserve my money when they care about the customers they have.

I haven’t found any yet which aren’t willing to flip off their customers and walk away if it gets toxic enough.

I’ve run into three scenes in particular lately.

- A conversation in the Grove about the nature of the latest reveal and less directly, why Ventari’s teachings are flawed. Without resorting to the Nightmare as an alternative.

- A conversation in Lion’s Arch in the form of an asura escorting a ‘newborn’ sylvari around and trying to explain Scarlet’s invasion without invoking guilt.

- Two people debating whether the Ministry was even needed at all if all human lands safely ruled by the Queen can be summed up as “all that can be seen from the top of Divinity’s Reach”.

Shiren.9532:

It might be worth going through the Mawdrey purification locations to see any lore threads that can be drawn between them to give a better idea of why Mawdrey was able to be purified.

Here’s a list:

Mysterious Seed
- Vial of Sacred Glacier Water (Unknown origin, but purified at the top of the Ice Floe Ruins)
- Polarized Ley Line Stone (a stone from the hub touched to the Breachmaker’s drill bit)
- Phantasmal Residue (Unknown origin, exposed to Foefire Ghost energies, which is also of unknown nature)

Cultivated Seed
- Chaos Orb (given by Countess Anise, then infused through Thaumanova with “chaos magic”. . . suspected to be a misnomer of dragon energy)
- Ley Line Dust (unknown exact origin, but can also be infused in Vexa’s Laboratory somehow)
- Mending Waters from Maguuma springs (always known to carry some odd properties)
- Enormous Foxfire Cluster (later infused with energy latent in Aurora’s Remains)

Pet Seed
- Water from the Font of Rhand (Unknown exactly how it has known mysterious properties)
- Mists Stone (From the Mistlock Observatory, clearly having power through being from the Mists)
- Destroyer Stone (“Heart of the Destroyer”, another piece from a dragon minion)
- Captured light from the Forsaken Halls (a dwarven dungeon associated with the Light of Deldrimor, could be this is a fragment of such power?)

Personally I think Mawdrey might be a paralel to the Pale Tree – a seed of Mordrem origins that grows to become “good”.

It’s intriguing to consider, but it took three generations of planting and cultivation before we got a “pet” plantling instead of something else. And a lot of mystical energies, some of which was known to be dragon-related.

The Foefire was caused by a sword that may have been gifted by the human gods. That could imply it has divine fire as we saw at the end of season 2.

The Divine Fire is known to be associated with Ascension, specifically the last key to reaching the interior of Augury Rock while the vision crystal draws the attention of the Five Gods down to witness the fight against the Doppleganger. It is not yet known to be associated with Magdaer or Sohothin, which until recent developments were just copies of the “Fiery Dragon Sword” possessed by father and son of a prominent royal line. (The direct decent of it being through Orrian royal lines being debatable, and highly unknown at this time.)

I’m saying that given all evidence – including both Glint and Mawdrey – that purifying dragon minions don’t make them so different as sylvari are. Sylvari look nothing like mordrem, they function nothing like mordrem. Mawdrey does on all accounts – looks, function, everything that Glint remains sharing with her old self, Mawdrey shares with the modern mordrem.

It’s not necessary they look like mordrem, especially if their appearance was influenced, as we now can agree through lore Konig has provided. Function is also debatable, as I would not be surprised to learn the Pale Tree does consume magic and is on a strong confluence of ley line energy. Considering there are four waypoints which are very close together, and we know waypoints are linked to ley lines . . . I consider it plausible.

As for the sylvari not consuming magic, it’s still debatable whether that is an active or innate part of the nature of dragon minions.

My problem with this argument has always been the implication that there needs to be a strong formula for what constitutes an ED minion and what doesn’t.

My biggest problem is it’s treated as a law when it is a theory. A theory which has been challenged through the reveal. The reaction as though a fundamental law of nature was broken is why I began to debate this in the fashion I have – there’s holes in both sides but there has been no absolute fundamental law dragon minions must behave in a certain manner or must possess several qualities.

There’s enough variation between each set of minions, that to try to codify a singular rule of behavior, nature, and powers seems to be problematic. The only rule which is known is this – an Elder Dragon controls these minions and sends them forth in some fashion. It is not necessary:

- For them to be corrupted from something already existing.
- For them to be created out of whole cloth.
- For them to follow a set organization.
- For them to be rational.
- For them to be sapient.
- For them to be intelligent.
- For them to possess immense magical prowess.
- For them to possess immense physical prowess.
- For them to have any immunities.

darkace.8925:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

All asura are dangerously incompetent and untrustworthy with any scientific experiment greater than testing gravitational acceleration with a pebble. I mean, just look at Thaumanova . . .

Need I remind you that Scarlet, a sylvari, was responsible for that. As much as I loathe that she was written into the Reactor’s lore at all, she’s now canonically responsible for that disaster..

I haven’t had a chance to run it, but would the reactor have gone up at all if asura hadn’t been creating something that volatile in the first place?

Again, this isn’t the first time asura have been toying with things of dangerous potential. It’s also not the last time.

Seriously, I really don’t trust them . . I’d trust the Sparks from Foglio’s Girl Genius to have better sense of safety.

Which was debunked – in a way – back in 2009. It was stated that the sylvari’s humanoid appearance is due to the Pale Tree shaping them to be roughly humanoid due to the influence from Ronan. Got nothing to do with corpses.

Ronan and Ronan’s corpse are, potentally, one and the sane if we talk about humanoid form due to the influence.

Where is it “clear” that they don’t have to?

Well . . . sylvari, for one.

As Elysian stated, the consumption of magic is THE defining point of Elder Dragons and their minions. It is THE core of their lore.

The core of their lore has more parts to it than that. The cycle of awakening is part of it, the fact no cycle has succeeded in preventing wholesale destruction of life on Tyria is part of it, and the notable fact we did manage to destroy what was thought to be indestructible.

You want an explanation? There you have it. But please do explain how there can be so many differences between mordrem and sylvari, when such differences don’t exist between different kinds of risen, different kinds of destroyers, etc.

First and simply – because there are and it was already stated to be. So there are the differences already.

But if you insist . . . you already gave one potential answer – due to Ronan’s influence, the sylvari are not like mordrem except in lineage being traced back to Mordremoth. Considering we aren’t sure what that “influence” consisted of or what was done to the seed prior to it being planted, there’s a lot of what we don’t know going on.

Though, this does bring the snag of Malyck . . . again . . . to the forefront. If he is from another tree, why does that tree produce sylvari which also have a humanoid form and aren’t like mordrem? Was the other tree influenced in the same fashion by a human, and if so how did that come to happen? How many more other trees exist and are they all producing sylvari or are some producing mordrem?

Third, we do not know if sylvari or the pale tree consume magic passively to the extent the Risen did during the mission you mentioned before. Considering it’s unclear if the Destroyers of a past age did or did not seek out magic instinctively to consume it . . . or instead instinctively struck out at magic which was capable of harming them . . . there is much doubt here.

Too much doubt to say with certainty a dragon minion needs to actively be consuming magic at the same rate at all times.

3/3

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Kryta one has – there’s explicit mention of an asura gate underneath Lion’s Arch during War in Kryta.

Great! And the other two?

Funny, I don’t recall any mention of there being a “large amount of energy” in Cathedral of Flames. As for the others, I’d have to just say “why would they attack all magical locations?”

We also don’t have any mention of there not being energy there. Though there is whatever magic was used to make the Effigies and whatever power permits the ghosts to be as potent as they are in the return trip.

Just because some weren’t attacked doesn’t mean destroyers don’t consume magic. It’s like saying Zhaitan doesn’t consume magic because he didn’t personally go to the Ring of Fire Islands and consume the magic of the bloodstone there.

And I’m not arguing that at all. I’m arguing there was far better targets than the ones which were chosen, and easier to breach and seize. If consumption is a key drive of the Elder Dragons – why is it these were overlooked when it is clear Mordremoth doesn’t need to be made aware of strong magical sources . . . it just is.

So why not those places?

Uh… the Jade Wind …

I stand corrected on Kisu, but there are still sources which could have been taken in Cantha not far from where the Destroyers would have been from spotting where the fissure entrance was. Similarly, Elona, but there’s not as many on Istan as there were in Kaineng.

Because you can tell when the instance and the open world takes place in accordance to each other when the maps never change (sole exception: the garden zone in Vabbi). Right. Very convincing argument there.

You asked me to point it out. Don’t get snarky because I did. Also, the maps may not change but spawns would “phase” and it was possible to do that as of Nightfall. If they chose not to do it in EOTN for this, it might be because . . . those Destroyers were meant to be there.

Also, the foundry is there still! Sure, it doesn’t have anti-destroyer golems yet, but it’s still a golem foundry – and golems are powered by magic.

Sure, you’re correct in the old parts of it still stand and it is still active. So why hasn’t anyone gone after it, if the Destroyers saw it as something worth going after?

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Konig Des Todes.2086:

The first two times happened because of the Soul Batteries.

There were no Soul Batteries in Bloodstone Fen.

The third time it released an aura (exuding magic) that triggered on deaths (not dissimilar to necromancy, hence the theory that such magic was of the Aggression school).

But it wasn’t a release in proportion to the strength of the death triggering the effect. Which means there is a variable amount of entropy in the process. Which leads me to point out it is still, thusly, taking in energy even if it is to release a portion of it out again.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But you argued they were drawn to the Raven Shrine because it was a magical location.

But I never argued that they are drawn far distances to all magical locations.

There was an asura gate leading near Raven Shrine. They passed through it, felt nearby magical power, and gathered toward said magical power. That’s what seems to be the situation, since they arrived in the area via a gate. The same is likely true for all other nearby magical locations – they gathered there because they were passing by, not because they sought it out.
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I presented a different perspective above -they attacked those sites because they represented a threat to them, not simply to consume them. Much the same as Svanir seemed to continue being drawn around the Wolf Shrine in the form of the Nornbear. He was not (apparently) consuming its power, since it could still be utilized to secure a blessing.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I think sylvari hounds and mordrem wolves look close enough alike, too. Remove the leafy coverings over the back, and you’re pretty close.

I fail to see how a normal wolf animal’s corpse that has a flower parasite puppeteering it is anywhere akin to a fully plant hound.

. . . you’re right, fern hounds are probably closer to Risen then in that example. Forget I said anything about them resembling sylvari in that case.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s where Orr was.

No. You’re not listening. Shards of Orr was in the Tarnished Coast – which is across the Strait of Malchor from Orr. Shards of Orr is not in Orr, it was a militant settlement of Orr.

That’s only because Orr as a region didn’t exist in GW1, due to it being . . . mostly underwater. It seemed pretty clear it was close enough to have some malign influence creating undead. Hinting at Zhaitan, so it seemed.

Also, if it was a settlement of Orr than it’s Orrian territory. Which means it’s effectively in Orr.

The Sons of Svanir formed because norn saw Svanir’s power boost and wanted the same. They sought Jormag out, not the other way around. This is established in Edge of Destiny – when Eir is explaining the history of Jormag’s rise to Logan before the Dragonspawn fight.

And Eir’s been wrong before, not to mention other characters being mistaken on factual basis in the past.

With the White Mantle: Saul stumbled upon the mursaat and then spread its teachings.

And it didn’t catch fire until the mursaat stepped in and helped push back the charr themselves, before vanishing with Saul and leaving Dorian in charge. In short, the mursaat created the White Mantle we see while Saul created the name and the basis of them.

If you want to properly compare White Mantle to Sons of Svanir, then what needed to happen was for Svanir to found the cult named after him. But he didn’t, therefore the comparison doesn’t match.

Ah. But we don’t know he didn’t. We know he was corrupted by the power leaking out of the frozen lake, and we know for some indeterminate amount of time he was ravaging homesteads before he was slain by Jora. We don’t know what happened before our characters came into the picture.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Bloodstones didn’t “consume life force and energy” or “energy that is tied to resurrection magic”. You’re very mistaken on the lore.

I’m more looking at what happened when you were near the Bloodstones, three times. The first time, it hampers resurrection skills (“Resurrection skills take 4 times as long to cast”), and the second time it takes energy when people die and has effects when that happens.

As to why no destroyer targeted them? Maybe because 2 of the 3 known were out of the game area, and the third was far away from any destroyer activity and – as I said above – the apparent goal of the destroyer wasn’t “consume magic” but “kill all the things”.

But you argued they were drawn to the Raven Shrine because it was a magical location.

I would say that the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan do resemble the common risen – especially eyes, which is basically a risen tied to an anchor holding a giant eyeball. Tequatl is also very risen-looking; compare it to the abomination. The only difference is the shape, not the appearance.

See, I don’t think they resemble them enough.

And sylvan hounds do look akin to sylvari – colors aside, the texture is very similar. Unlike every mordrem out there.

I think sylvari hounds and mordrem wolves look close enough alike, too. Remove the leafy coverings over the back, and you’re pretty close.

Shards of Orr wasn’t anywhere close to Orr. It was in the Tarnished Coast, across the Strait of Malchor.

That’s where Orr was.

And Jormag isn’t really “creating” the Sons of Svanir – according to their lore, the Sons of Svanir are formed by their own choices to join. Then they come into contact to Jormag and his corruption via the shamans. This is vastly different from, say, Jormag creating sapient ice elementals just to later corrupt them.

That’s like saying the mursaat had nothing to do with creating the White Mantle, because people chose to join and possibly weren’t aware of the mursaat. We know the mursaat at least guided it to being formed, with interest in making it go a certain direction.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Let me get this straight. Your argument is “because they don’t go after all of the magical locations, they weren’t targeting magical locations”?

No, I said it was curious and bore some questions for it.

Why would have have to go to Bear/Wolf Shrine? Why would they have to go to the Eye of the North? And on the Eye, your last statement holds something to think about: why has Jormag apparently avoided it?

I’d submit Wolf Shrine was attacked – by the Nornbear who was in those caverns. Not to mention that was in Drakkar Lake, where the frozen . . . whatever . . . in the lake probably was draining from it anyway. Someone reminded me of it last night.

As for the Eye of the North, it’s a good question. Neither of us have an answer and can only speculate, but I’m also curious – if it was standing before the Vanguard chose to move in and seems undamaged, why is it in ruins two hundred and fifty years later yet nothing has moved in?

It’s a source of far too many questions only answerable with one out-of-game answer: because it needs to be unconquered so players can go there and retrieve their “legacy”.

Why would they go to Cantha if they were nowhere near (that intro quest is of questionable canonocity as it would place the group under Kamadan, Lion’s Arch, and Kaineng at the exact same time)?

You might question it, but it did happen. As of yet no single one of those three introduction quests has been held up as canon. (It probably never will be determined one is worth more than the others.)

What’s so fancy at the Cathedral of Flames (there wasn’t any powerful artifacts, just Ascalonian artifacts that ghosts tied themselves to).

Fancy? The large amount of energy the Flame Legion had bound there in the process of making it a center of their worship. It bugs me slightly there aren’t Destroyers there when they were painting them as “the new Gods” . . . .

As for the other dungeons, there are the Sepulchre of Dragrimmar or the Heart of the Shiverpeaks. Both involve powerful dwarven artifacts which went untouched.

And what Shiro was targeting was the royal blood. Likely no more potent than any others’ blood.

Right, and it carried power enough to turn him into something capable of bending reality to make the seas turn to jade and the forest to stone. So all that potential power and it wasn’t interesting?

And that fissure wasn’t there before the factory – that was how they went to attack it. Unless I’m forgetting something and you’d like to enlighten me.

It was there beforehand, because the ranger boss “Storm of Destruction” was there for skill capturing. Look it up. You can actually go there at any time before doing that major quest and it’ll be there.

My arguments have been based off of dialogue and observations. Hardly “maybes”. But the Vinewrath is stated to be the source of the local mordrem, at the very least, and that’s my point – it may not be the source but it is a source, meaning that not all mordrem come directly from the dragon – the argument you’re holding for why sylvari differ.

Actually, my one argument for why they differ is because they’re not meant to be like mordrem, they’re meant to be like something else. Also, notably there is more than one source of the sylvari as Malyck proves.

My second argument would be because of the influence of Ronan’s corpse giving a “template” of sorts to shape the sylvari on, but that largely assumes a lot as to other trees which are out there doing the same.

You’re going to explain how all minions having shared traits but other minions being better at said shared traits explains why there can be minions without said shared traits.

I don’t need to explain it, you need to explain why it is imperative all minions share those traits you have selected when it’s clear they don’t have to.

Pre-Factions, she and Rotscale were two of the toughest fights for most players. But that’s all subjective, especially if you know the biggest tricks to fighting a certain boss. Every boss has mechanical exploits that allow perfect destruction against – Glint was no exception.

Rotscale I can give people, but that’s because it cheats. Pretty much that fight is designed to be fought right there where anyone approaching is going to be wasted thanks to an incredibly good defensive setup.

Pre-Factions, the Doppleganger was also said to be one of the toughest fights. I walked through it the first time too. Rangers made it real easy to do so, especially those who invested in the pet a lot.

Fighting Glint didn’t require a lot of tricks, that more required paying attention to enemy skills. (I credit it as one of the few quiet lessons about how to play PvP – “know what your foe is doing”.)

Thing is, if we start making excuses for that, we have to start making excuses for other things too, and we might as well stop trying to look at it as closely as Konig is on “why do these things not resemble these other things”.

If the behavior is a part of it, it must be examined from the GW1 era as well as GW2 era. In short, if we know these things are the primary piece of behaviors in absence of direct orders, then why was it inconsistent in the beginning?

If appearance is a part of it, then it must also be examined as a whole and not just restraining it to only trying to investigate the sylvari and mordrem. It has to be looked at for Branded and Glint, or Destroyers all across the board, or Nornbear and Icebrood.

And there is a significant problem in “if we didn’t hear about it, we need to assume it happened anyway” . . . because we didn’t hear about it after the fact either.

I do agree with one thing – there’s a lot of “maybe” going on in either side of the argument and it all hinges on things either not said, or not present when it’s believed they should be. In absence of official lore detailing such things, there’s little to go on other than that.

There’s a lot more evidence for the sylvari’s potential for being corrupted by Mordremoth in two examples alone, possibly four : Ceara, Aerin and potentially Cadeyrn and Faolain. Suggesting either they are susceptible to it either from being plant-based life or the current conclusion of having been created with servitude in mind.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yeah, but it doesn’t look like a great White Oak tree. Really makes me wonder what people think a White Oak looks like. Take a look at the Grove sometime – it’s all plant organics until you hit the ground level, then it’s some rock or soil but mostly plants.

You do realize that it’s explicitly stated that the Grove is grown by the sylvari, right? First by Kahedins, then later by Gardeners.

However, you’re deflecting the question. Why doesn’t the Pale Tree look anything akin to the mordrem?

Why should it? Why do the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan not resemble the same Risen which we fight? Why does Tequatl the Sunless look as it does?

Why do the fern hounds not resemble sylvari, come to think of it?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

By the way, I don’t think they’re dragon minions so much as a very suggestible crop (heh) of people who can be turned. Sort of like Zhaitan turned the tombs of Orr into his own personal army.

You realize that Zhaitan didn’t create the tombs, and that he turned them into dragon minions right? It’s a poor comparison.

It would be like saying “Zhaitan created standard zombies so that he can corrupt them at a later date” rather than “Zhaitan created risen from tombs.”

He didn’t create the tombs, but there were already undead in the area. We know this from Shards of Orr. But then, Jormag is creating an army of Sons of Svanir so he can turn them into Icebrood so . . . you figure it out.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So if it knows everything its minions know, why create the Eyes at all? If it consumes everything through the risen rank-and-file, why create the Mouths? There has to have been a reason for their creation and function.

Specializations typically mean that you’re better than others. It’s like saying “an amateur biker can ride a motorcycle, so why use a professional dirt bike rider for a race?”

And that could explain why certain behaviors aren’t inherent to the sylvari. You’re handing me back my points as you argue they’re not with merit.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nothing hints the Pale Tree isn’t consuming magic. As for Glint, if she consumed magic, why wasn’t it harder to deal with her? It should have been like . . . fighting near the Bloodstones. But it wasn’t. Her lair had a lot of odd effects to it (both times we’ve visited it) but they didn’t seem to fit “magic is consumed”.

I can’t answer why it wasn’t harder to deal with Glint, though she was one of the toughest Prophecies bosses, but we know she consumed and held magic; this fact is the very foundation of the Zephyrite’s Aspect lore.

Short stories aren’t in canon. You know better. It can be accepted her remains held magical power, but that is not the same thing.

Also “toughest Prophecies bosses” . . . please. Good interrupt timing and a solid team of six could take her down. The Confessor put up a better fight than her. Either of the two, come to think of it.

And why would fighting a being that consumes magic be akin to fighting near objects that exude magic?

They consume life force and energy, and we know this very well. Specifically the type of energy that is tied to resurrective magics, but they still do. No magic was stronger near the Bloodstones so I confess I find it hard to believe they exude magic . . . no matter what I’m told, if we go by what is in evidence they do not, in fact, exude magic but consume life force.

Which still brings the question up – if they exude magic why did no Destroyers target them? Those should have been top of the list.

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Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the mere presence of Destroyers didn’t seem to have such an effect on it in the past, nor did they seek out extraordinarily powerful locations and/or artifacts the first time they awoke.

You are wrong on the latter account. Clearly we wouldn’t know on the former due to the fact that the very fact that dragons (and their minions) consume magic wasn’t discovered until 1325 (lore discontinuity of Vekk’s and Gadd’s books aside).

And from “Defending the Breach”, This is in reference to Raven Shrine; even in GW, the destroyers sought out places of magical power. It just wasn’t known why – nor ever speculated upon by NPC or player.

Except the Destroyers did not seek out the Bear Shrine, or the Wolf Shrine. They only emerged in the Raven Point caverns., when we see later they can potentially emerge elsewhere.

They should have gone to the Eye of the North, by all accounts, but strangely . . . did not. Despite it being a rather potent site of power. Even now it’s silent but untouched. Why is that?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They did not behave as the newly-awakened Mordrem did, seeming more interested in spreading via asura gate than . . . say . . . going for the Bloodstones, or Scepter of Orr, or other places (the tomb Rotscale guarded in Majesty’s Rest).

This is more likely to do with the Great Destroyer. It was said that the Great Destroyer was Primordus’ alarm clock and herald – it was to prepare the way for Primordus’ awakening… by killing all life on the surface. It’s goal was genocide.

But it did go to the Central Transfer Chamber from elsewhere (it only just fell before the storyline, but the destroyers have managed to destroy “countless civilizations” already before we joined in – Source ) It also assaulted Glint’s child, sent minions to a magical golem factory, a spiritual shrine, and a Searing Cauldron. Curious, no?

It’s curious how it didn’t assault all sources but only a few. And left some more powerful ones untouched or even unlooked at. There was already a Destroyer Vent in the area of the Golem Forge, the charr presumably herded the Destroyers into a pit (where they conveniently stayed for a long period), but the Cathedral of Flame was untouched . . . other dungeons with places of power remained untouched, and they could have emerged and attacked Kaineng since they were apparently in old catacombs under it . . . they could have attacked Emperor Kisu, a source of incredible magical potential as evidenced by what Shiro was after. And they did not.

That’s more curious than the list of attacks, I think.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, the sylvari come from the Pale Tree. The mordrem are directly created by the dragon.

And the Pale Tree comes from the dragon. Just like the mordrem we see seem to come from the Vinewrath. But they still consume magic. And they can all trace themselves back to Mordremoth.

It doesn’t seem to matter which champion created the dragon minions – so why would it for the sylvari? You’re stipulating this off of nothing but “maybes”.

So do a lot of people, and so do you. But to be more precise, I’m stipulating a lot off the absence of certain things. Or of certain behaviors, much like you have about the sylvari consuming magic or not doing so.

It’s also uncertain if the Vinewrath is in fact the source of the mordrem . . . chances are it’s not since the vines fail to die after it does, and mordrem still are active after it is gone. Killing it does little except stop its own activity for a time. It’s a lot like the Shatterer, or the Mega Destroyer, or Tequatl (pre-Arah) in that it’s created for the purpose of fighting.

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mstanton.3561:

I’m loathe to say never but… never.

And considering Anets track record if they do add it it will consist of removing precursors from drop tables and making it a mystic forge recipe with 0.000000001% chance of actually giving you the precursor like we have now…

No, no, if they do anything it will be something else and easier. I have that much faith in them not being really stupid by doing what you suggest they will.

naiasonod.9265:

Which Anet seems very disinterested in making much more likely than winning the national lotto. I’m frightfully disappointed by the whole ‘legendary’ approach though.

Keep on keeping on, aye!

Well they have a nice part of their players who aren’t interested in making them more accessible, and that isn’t just the people making bank on trading them around. It includes the people who would really like them to be more readily available and less of a status symbol (or a “I am rich and/or devoted enough to put a lot of time into it” symbol).

The high end of the economy right now is, indeed, largely populated by precursors and the few other rarities which have been introduced. The resource nodes, the permanent contracts, the permanent mystic toilet node . . . it’d be kind of a massive shake to see the huge price tags on certain precursors drop by even 25% due to more supply getting out there. Either that or it just winds up adding a few more people to the “Golden” club through selling off precursors which are easier to get.

It’s why I keep saying the first step would have to be making them Account Bind on Acquire, and let all the people who would quit over that go away before proceeding any further with a hunt, a collection, or to make it just outright easier to get your hands on a precursor.

naiasonod.9265:

The only thing legendary about legendaries is how legendarily gullible you have to be to either buy or make the silly things.

Everything else is just a tedium test.

I don’t plan on making one unless the materials are practically in my hands already.

In short, if a precursor falls into my lap which I can use.

tigirius.9014:

But they keep thinking that they don’t need it so they’ll continue to stumble along in their live patches causing outrage over outrage because they don’t test anything ahead of time.

I don’t think they need it, because I don’t see PTRs as a “time honored tradition” . . . since in older times PTRs weren’t utilized entirely as people envision they were. I think the EQ test server was barely used from what I read, the UO one turned into an entirely separate game, and earlier than that . . . there wasn’t one.

I think most of the problems people are complaining about aren’t something a PTR can/will “magic bullet” into a fix. A large slice are social problems, another large slice is storytelling problems, and a third large slice is problems with pacing their work well enough.

PTR doesn’t fix those.

I’d say only certain types of plants, and let it be the set “Unidentified (Color) Dye”. Like Blueberries can sometimes provide an Unidentified Blue/Purple Dye.

I mean, it does cheapen how Chefs can create the dyes, but at the same time . . . they were already pretty cheapened on release all the same. And still are due to the Laurel exchange for dye packs.

draxynnic.3719:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- The history and culture of the Kodan does not mesh well with the idea of the PC as “someone out doing adventures”. At least, thus far. It would take a significant change to make it believable after they pretty much don’t interfere with other things going on and seem prone to leaving rather than fighting a war.

I’d say it fits better than charr, actually. The kodan, from memory, do have mentions in their lore about individual kodan visiting other lands in order to judge the locals. The charr, on the other hand, have a militaristic culture based on everyone being part of a military unit (the warband) and knowing their place in the military hierarchy – which meant that ArenaNet then had to find workarounds that allowed charr to be doing other things.

Bah, nobody allows a charr to do what they want. The charr just does it and sneers and dares you to try to stop them.

Most of the other things that have been said against kodan probably apply – too similarish to norn aesthetically and conceptually, not a lot of room for customisation, the possibility that certain professions just aren’t kodany (there are a couple of trainers at the kodan outpost in southern Snowden that are non-kodan, and there’s probably a reason for that), and just being Too Dang Large. That said, these could probably all be overcome if ArenaNet decides people want it enough, so while I have little interest in the kodan myself, it seems reasonable to let the people who do make their plugs.

I don’t mind people making the plugs or making up a fantasy about how it’s going to happen. I had the same reaction to people making up charr potential characters back in GW1 after EOTN put Pyre on our side of things and “made it likely” to have allied charr.

I just like pointing out problems with the idea of kodan as a race expansion. So far, the biggest stumbling blocks are in the physical design rather than the lore . . . which is possible to bend a bit for the kodan to get involved. I can put three two-paragraph writeups about how it is plausible without breaking prior lore as to how to get it to work, but I can’t . . . in a lot of ways, figure out how to get around the other two issues I listed about the models

Mind you, there is a fair amount of evidence that the tengu have already had a lot of the development they’d need to be a playable race, while the kodan… haven’t, or at least not as far as we’ve seen.

Tengu was always a closer bid than kodan, because they had a fair amount of variation even back in ye olde Crest Farming days. There were more than a few different types of tengu in the old Tyria which proved there was a broad spectrum of potential customization options, the armor could be adjusted to be light/medium/heavy with minor tweaks and the only real issue I can see for tengu would be armor clipping . . .

. . . and given the track record with charr and armor issues, I say it’s a good thing tengu weren’t offered sooner. That armor would clip a lot worse than charr armor, and if they haven’t figured out how to solve it (and by extension the charr armor issue) then I don’t think we’ll see tengu at all either.