Guild Wars 2

naiasonod.9265:

They should come up with training arcs that make us complete a specific series of story-based but skill-driven tasks to unlock each tier of traits.

It should and could be tied the order one had joined. Joined the vigil? It’ll be straight up combat missions for you too unlock your trait tiers. You might wind up having to resource manage and direct forces like a warmaster and duke it out one on one against a BBEG boss to unlock grandmaster traits in the end.

Joined the whispers? You’ll have to go on stalker and stealth missions.

Joined the Priory? Light on combat, heavy on lore, you’ll have to solve puzzles, survive spelunking some ooh-ahh-woo environments and face some lightly challenging combat.

In this manner, players could pick the nature and theme of the challenge they will pursue and, at the appropriate levels, be able to start on their trait questlines, unlocking the entire tier when they’ve finished.

There found be ongoing storylines starting with the first trait tier’s unlocking, continuing when it’s time to unlock tier two and culminating in a grand finish to unlock tier three.

Have a +1.

Would definitely like to see some reason for your order being chosen other than liking Tybalt/Forgal/Sieran and the armor skins.

I’ve still got these things hanging around and keep looking at them from time to time. About the only thing I know they’re not saying is “drink more ovaltine”.

For those who don’t know what I’m talking about, there’s a few . . . items of interest you can find from either Heart vendors or vendors after certain events complete properly. These are accessories you can equip, but their description . . .

###

Order of Whispers Secret Note

Reads: B2 12 89 12 92
Acquired: From Fisherman Carter. He is found in “Merchantman’s Strait”, Bloodtide Coast.

###

Order of Whispers Secret Message 4

Reads: 31 254 13 56
Acquired: From Innkeeper Klement. He is found in “False Lake”, Lornar’s Pass

###

Order of Whispers Secret Message 5

Reads: 31 31 51 67 85
Acquired: From Farmer Griss. He is found in “Venison Pass”, Lornar’s Pass

###

Order of Whispers Secret Code

There are three variants, all of them bought with Karma.

From Mensorr in “The Iron Veil”, Timberline Falls. (Talk, time, dark, snow)
From Agent Rjoda in “The Mire Sea”, Mount Maelstrom. (Break, blaze, judgement, sabotage)
From Slayer Feldera in “Whisper Bay”, Malchor’s Leap. (Asura, Orrian, local, attack)

###

Order of Whispers Decoder Ring A1

Reads: A1 15 35 1 15 95 15 12 5
From Agent Tulfar. He is found in “Jormabakke Stead”, Snowden Drifts

###

If this is okay, then I’m going to start kicking asura too.

I’m not talking about parties, I’m talking about a full-on punt through the uprights type kick.

BentoDetective.6491:

Yes, there will always be people who complain. This thread, however, has much merit to it and Anet needs to really listen to the players.

I agree on both accounts. There’s always going to be complaints, and there will almost always be a thread which hits insane amounts of pages just because several people keep arguing back and forth over something. And this thread does have merit, which is why it’s sticking around instead of being shut down like mount threads tend to.

I do like your idea of earning the trait through a meaningful and related task. I must stress that if something new were to be implemented, please do not make it a chore. I can agree on the amount you stated for paying a trainer for the traits (silver, not gold).

I would say, 25 silver for the first tier, 40 for the second, 75 for the third. Yeah, it sounds like a lot until you realize it’s not too hard to earn the money. Especially for the grandmaster tier, where green drops are worth a silver and anywhere up to 98 copper . . .

I also say no matter what it would be, we’re going to get “this is such a chore”. It needs to be . . . oh, less than Yakslapper and more than what the old dailies used to be, I’d say.

Odyssey.2613:

You’re nitpicking words now. But the gist of it is they break through, so we pull back to defend other gates. Think about it. Does that make any sense to you?

Yes.

I mean, not as much sense as dropping bombs on them until they thin out, or in simply retreating until we see Divinity’s Reach.

rapthorne.7345:

I’ll honestly not be attending the event again now I have my coat box. Map chat was absolutely disgusting when I attended an event not going well, full of insults and rage being thrown at anyone and everyone.

Sounds exactly like Marionette.

Applause for this accomplishment. This now enters my list of fictional alphabets I can steal from to totally confuse my tabletop players.

. . . because everyone now has the Hylian cheat-sheet >sigh<.

Look, seriously, this isn’t that big an issue. Just everyone start carrying your standard-issue bottles of vinaigrette and special orichalcum forks . . . and we’ll be fine.

I’d add to prioritize Thrashers in the lanes since they leave stuff which can linger and deal damage. The map I was on didn’t have much problem taking it down . . .

draxynnic.3719:

However, it would be unsatisfying if, from the moment of finishing map completion of Kryta on, the only time the centaurs ever get mentioned is in relation to something more directly related to the dragons – either dragon minions attacking centaurs (as happened to the bandits of Fort Vandal) or Kryta wanting to do something against the dragons but being prevented due to a distraction by the centaurs (as happened with Ministry plotting in S2E4 – that particular plot was only relevant because it got in the way of fighting dragons. If the date of the hearing had been anything other than the day of the summit, we would never have heard of it).

As for the bandits, I can’t really roll my eyes too much – they completely were a non-entity in the personal story after two chapters at most. The fact they’re basically involved in just getting pushed out tells me they at least had thought about it and didn’t plow under the bandits entirely.

The ministry plot about centaur problems? It’s an excuse to not get involved, and you know it deep down. If it wasn’t the centaurs it would have been the bandits. Or it would have been cleaning up the Tower ruins from Kessex. Or it would have been sending direct aid to Lion’s Arch, or building a new city, or something other than fighting dragons.

That’s how the ministry works, you know. Distract with “that problem isn’t important, here’s our pet project which we totally aren’t profiting from which would be better to focus on”.

That’s a fair observation to make. TBH, I suspect the problem might be more to do with their pacing rather than their plotting. The story is moving so slowly that when the story appears to be focused on non-dragon stuff it feels like the dragons have been forgotten, and when it is focused on the dragons, it feels like everything is focused on the dragons.

The pacing has always been a big issue I’ve had with all the story in GW2. It’s just uneven at times and now it’s kind of slow because it feels like Silverwastes took a lot of the development “real estate” over the story instances.

Which is why I made that final reference to Heart of Thorns – if we are looking at an expansion or genuinely expansion-like content, that might give them the opportunity to find a balance.

I’ll almost put money it’s not an expansion (and people will still argue it’s not going to be “expansion like” unless it’s a big lump of content released at once and devoured in a week). And further as a side-bed, if it is LS3 then it’ll run into the same pacing issues as this season – starting off stronger and then falling slower and slower as it reaches the end.

In all seriousness, I really want someone from ANet to answer:

- Why was this conceived in the first place?
- Why was it removed?
- Why hasn’t it been considered as something to add back in, perhaps in another tab like Collections?

darkace.8925:

warbignime.4610:

darkace.8925:

Lore Books might be too confusing for new players.

I don’t see how that’s confusion, it’s just like normal books but with animation.

I was joking.

Stop that, it’s confusing the new players.

sorudo.9054:

no, we would have a 70+ page complaint on how annoying it is to even get 1 elite skill to begin with, i never wanted the whole capture in GW2 at all and never will.

We’ll always have a 70+ complaint thread about anything. Even if they gave out free Gems to everyone, there’d be a complaint thread about the amount not being high enough, or something. I’m jaded on that whole score.

I wanted less the capture mechanic and more earning the Mastery. Personally, if it was a matter of accumulating through play? Like “To earn Read the Wind, earn the Longbow Master or Speargun Master achievement”. “To earn Predator’s Onslaught, your or your pet kill X enemies while they are affected by movement-impeding conditions.”

Some task which is appropriate and related to the achievement. If you really want to have them work on unlocks and travel, then you can have that too. Have them need to complete an event where a ranger NPC is involved and they’ll “offer to show them a trick” which unlocks how you earn it.

That is how I would have revamped the system myself. Overlay it on top of what already exists. Anyone can be grandfathered in, and if you visit a trainer you can pay Silver/Badges/SP (one of these things, not all of them) you can unlock earning it without needing to go PvE.

(Yes, I said silver, not gold.)

Bernie.8674:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

At least with Elite Skills your target would use it. (This was a considerable problem with some of them.) After they changed the capture system, it was not too bad but the initial one was even more BS than Traits are now.

I beg to differ.

…

I’m a bit confused. I never had a problem with that. You just had to be familiar with the boss and watch his cast bar very carefully.

Nope, sorry, I really didn’t like it before it got changed. AFTER it got changed, I didn’t have to watch the boss like a hawk to the point of ignoring everything else going on. I also didn’t have to pray they used the skill before going down.

The real problem with the Trait Mastery unlocks is how eclectic the list is and how they make no sense in comparison. You needed a necromancer Elite Skill (Aura of the Lich)? Start hunting necromancer bosses in areas past Sanctum Cay in the campaign. You might have to really hunt but you knew what you were looking for and there was a reasoning to it.

Trait Masteries? Less rhyme or reason.

. . . wait, I got a Carapace Coat Box from beating the Vinewrath via achievement reward? Is this seriously randomized so some people don’t get it via the achievement reward chest?

ElysianEternity.6215:

(grumble ok I said that’s it for me today in the other thread but I guess here I am still)

Tobias, I think we’re talking a little past each other. lD;; (Except for the Inquest, I totally agree, hehe)

Example: With Southsun, the LS episode itself wasn’t focused on dragons. Yeah. But the direct cause of this story happening can be traced back to dragons. You’re right, it could be about climate change. It’d be irrelevant to the southsun story itself… which is part of my point yanno. It didn’t need to be caused by dragons. And nothing wrong with them causing it, because it makes sense.

But when too many side-stories plus the main story link to the dragons (also in retrospect), the story as whole becomes kinda shallow. It takes color away from Tyria and its various issues.

Does it? I disagree.

To start, assume you’re going to write a story in which something causes major changes to the world . . . such as the dragons awakening and leaving their marks on it. (The Brand, the flooding of Kryta, Mount Maelstrom, the frozen northern Shiverpeaks.) It’s irresponsible to not keep in mind what those changes actually do to the world. Changes which are large in scope like those things listed above have many many effects on the world, some of which are immediate and some of which are not.

Everything might trace back to those changes, but that’s because big changes demand you think about what those changes do in their entirety.

I don’t find it shallow to have changes like the ones to Tyria the dragons caused have lasting or unintentional effects . . . I find it deeper to find they had some writers thinking on “so what all happens if we have Primordius’ minions warming up parts of the Shiverpeaks?” and come up with those changes.

I mean, it’s better than looking at Ravnica and going “hoooowwwwwwwwww?!” . . .

The base-game was mostly fine with its balance between major dragon-issues and totally dragon-unrelated side issues like flame legion, bandits, the foefire, renegades, dredge, the centaur war, the tension between the 3 high legions, kryta’s dilemma, etc.

Only problem as whole was that the atmosphere was too lighthearted and the threat of the major issues felt way too distant or almost nonexistent.

And there were some people who felt the game was not delivering on its promise of “Tyria vs the Dragons” with all that side-issues going around.

I’m not complaining that things were affected by the dragon at all. Because it’d be kinda senseless to complain about the dragons doing their jobs as eldritch abominations altering life on Tyria. Also heck even those not-dragon issues I listed are affected in one way or another by the dragons more or less distantly. But dragons aren’t the reason why these threats are happening. And it’s okay and even a must that a lot is caused by dragons. But there’s still a need for balance.

The problem is, as I noted, if you’re willing to step back and look at a big picture – almost everything in modern Tyria really can drawn back to the effects of a dragon somehow. Probably the only two things which aren’t are the matter of the charr in Ascalon and the Mist War.

(I was going to say the centaur wars in Kryta but that’s also affected by a dragon due to southern Kryta getting ravaged over by the tsunami from Orr rising. Krytans were displaced and thus moved into centaur lands, causing the wars.)

I’m …idk whining? hoping that not? dreading? word? that the writers might take all these side plots and lore and problems that while in a dragon ravaged world, aren’t caused by dragons and make them about dragons for the sake of making them about/linking them to dragons and thus creating an imbalance that basically ends up being ‘dragons are behind everything’.

As above, the only thing not connected to dragons is the “charr/human over Ascalon” material. No, that one’s connected to Abaddon

I can understand the trepidation (that’s the word you’re looking for, and if you’re not natively speaking english then you probably never saw it before). I didn’t like MTG’s severe massive retcon back in the day where suddenly Phyrexia and its enemy Urza wound up basically being the thing from which all events flowed in every expansion short of ‘Arabian Nights’.

But at the same time, with this story I’m looking at? I think it’s even worse to discount the dragons as not being important, or at least something to worry less about. These things need to be dealt with due to being a large part of why the world is in trouble. It’s kind of like writing a story set in the 1940s and not mentioning the war at all.

Konig, good on you for sitting down and playing through it. At least you did so you can see through it on your own. I’m working through it myself, most of what I have is via Let’s Plays or Wiki Magic.

If you’re willing to discuss matters, I can start threading through things. I’m kind of with you about how there wasn’t much concrete evidence but there’s a fair amount of “hmmm” which stands out after the revelation which seems to make it plausible enough.

If you’re just done with it, okay, I’ll just raise a glass for your time here and wish you well.

Personally, I plan on catching up on my Journal parts, and maybe in a week I’ll start doing my single-player games. I have four Dragon Quest games to work through, after all. It’s okay, though, this game so far isn’t going anywhere.

mtpelion.4562:

As a grown up, I have limited time to spend on recreational activities. The large amount of waypoints allows me to skip the boring parts and get right to the action on the (frequent) days where I’ve got only a fraction of an hour to play.

Yeah, this is pretty much my feelings. I mean, some days I’m off and can go for a walk across all of Blazeridge Steppes seeking iron ore. And some days I just want to pop from Ascalon to Southsun Cove to Orr and cut down every tree I see when I drop in.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Squee.7829:

We don’t really know what entailed getting Glint free, or if the tablets were solely responsible for freeing the tree.

Uhm… we know exactly what it entails, we replicated the Forgotten ritual on a smaller scale in Arah exp on lil’ Twitchy and freed it of Zhaitan’s control. :x

One of these days I will get to do Arah explorable and see this stuff.

True tho that we don’t know what’s more to the Pale tree. Though… I think I just said, it was the common theory with it being based on mostly friendship&love!! that’s bothered me and how close the current reveal we got is to it.
Though I’ll also say that it is fine by me if the full reveal is without all the things that made this theory unfounded (and cringeworthy) aka the tablet and its power of love being the bane of EDs.

It’s probably not the tablet and power of love directly so much as it is . . . sort of like imprinting a spirit into it, perhaps? Repeated workings or readings almost ritualized having been binding the will of Ronan and Ventari into the tablet itself and thus seeping into the Pale Tree over time?

I mean, it could be written in a way so that it isn’t just out as “the nurturing power of love triumphs over evil nature” while retaining the same essence of the thoughts.

Besides, we know what the bane of Elder Dragons is.

Cannonfire.

draxynnic.3719:

In the case of recent GW2 releases, though… I think it is reasonable to say that the dragons have been taking over the story. Pretty much everything lately has been either working against Mordremoth, or dealing with something that is hindering efforts to work against Mordremoth.

Still… we’ll see what happens at and after PAX South.

Looking at how much story there is actually going on? I’m sorry, it doesn’t compare. The story amount of the chapters seems real small compared to the rest of the offerings, especially from “Echoes of the Past” through “Seeds of Truth”. It seems like it’s all about this but I’m basically seeing it as a set of linked primary quests to compare it to GW1 mechanics.

. . . they’re about the same length, and none of the instances are as long as missions were so far. So just looking at it, what we have is like the slice in Kryra (first time through) in Prophecies – everything seems to be all about the Shining Blade vs White Mantle, and with the undead presence making things ugly.

Meh. At least it’s competently done and more in tune than the first two thirds of LS1 with how the story is flowing around characters rather than seeming to bubble up through the content.

ElysianEternity.6215:

@Tobias Trueflight

Man this feels like a game of connect the dots. lD

Okay, Southsun cove. Well. The Karka appeared there because they couldn’t before because Risen. And there’s a high chance they were driven out by the DSD because what else would force a deep-sea race to the surface? Then later down the line, how did that whole refugee situation happen? Alliances by Scarlet who was a pawn to a dragon. Welp.

Living Story season 1 was supposed to be happening parallel somewhere to the Personal Story. The timeline is pretty much unknown for exactly when stuff happened, thanks to shenanigans trying to keep them separate.

And, again, Southsun Cove isn’t about the dragons. They’re mostly irrelevant. You can Ctrl+R “Dragon” with “Climate Change” in regards to what drove the Karka into the area . . . and nothing changes.

The Krytan Political Mess Redux. See: Reason and mastermind behind all that, Mursaat.

The White Mantle is not the mursaat.

What has Anet been hinting at all this time in S2 as we move into Mord’s territory? White Mantle and Mursaat. Is there reason to worry they’ll link both of these things rather than let these side-stories play out independently? Yeah.

Well, considering to get to the Silverwastes it had to be through the bandits we “knew” were Mantle-led? (Like we “knew” sylvari were dragon minions before this update.) Yeah.

And again, if it turns out they’re basically moving out of the area and abandoning it because Mordremoth went active . . . how does that change anything about what their goals are? It doesn’t change what’s going on with them, it just means they relocate or have setbacks . . . and have to step up other activities.

If we see increased activity on that front, because they got rattled by Mordremoth, it doesn’t mean the story is suddenly about the dragon.

Inquest. Problem with the Inquest is, a) the Inquest hardly has a common goal beside ‘more knowledge at all costs!’ You can claim that keeping the arcane council under control is their story but you’d be partly wrong because this is only one of the many individual goals they have. Maybe a better way to put it is that every single Inquest krewe seems to have their own ‘side story’ and so you can’t speak of the Inquest’s story as whole.

Which is really the charm of the Inquest, for me.

Maybe it’s a bit of a misunderstanding because English isn’t my native language, but when I said “There’s a HUGE difference about ‘centered around dragon’s and taking every little thing in the game and say ‘gasp! Dragons did it/relate to it!’”, the present progressive was alluding to the future.

So yeah, it’s not about everything being about or being made dragons-did-it right now, but warning the writers of doing that. There’s a chance they won’t. But there’s also a chance in my eyes they might. Thus, I think worrying and mentioning it is justified.

Well, we have a dilemma. See, the dragons are part of the landscape of the world, and having made significant changes before GW2 actually starts. So, really, it could be argued . . . everything has something to do with dragons since everything has already been affected by them.

Even Rata Sum, which was formed back in the days of the Great Destroyer because . . . Destroyers (Primordius’ minions) chased the asura to the surface. So from day one, minute one, the dragons have already affected everything which has asura connected to it. Which, thanks to asura gates now being normalized through Lion’s Arch? That means everything.

There’s two ways in which it could be argued dragons already had a hand in shaping the world. So complaining it’s going on now is sort of reaching for something to complain about.

Now, complaining the story centers on the dragons and what they’re doing? I’d almost be okay with saying that needs less focus some of the time . . . except we had incredible amounts of bile left around over LS1 which didn’t seem to connect to dragons at all and had people going “so aren’t there dragons we could be killing now?”. I know it was a common joke I saw. “Zhaitan died in 2012. We’ll see the next one in 2017.”

FlamingFoxx.1305:

The Karka were driven to the surface by the deep sea dragon. <- Dragons.

First, not really proven but just supposed at. It could be them looking for a good volcanic chamber to nest in and Southsun was unoccupied.

Second, still doesn’t link “Secret of Southsun” (Canach’s guerilla warfare against the Consortium) or the Consortium’s first whole effort to dragons.

And lastly – the dragons are a nonentity even if we assume it was Bubbles who pressured them out and Zhaitan’s shift of the seascape from raising Orr gave them a nice nesting ground. they may set the stage but it’s not about them. That’s where I have a problem with “everything is about the dragons”. It’s really not – they may be one of the reasons things happen, but just having an effect from being there doesn’t make the story about them.

That’s exactly like saying “Star Wars: A New Hope” is about Palpatine since if he didn’t exist the story wouldn’t. Or “Star Trek 3/4” is about Khan, because if he hadn’t existed in the second film then the other two movies wouldn’t exist.

There’s “being about it” and “being part of the world”. There’s a distinction.

The Inquest have a backstory and a purpose, but we haven’t had side stories that revolve around them in any capacity other than their relation to research on draconic energies. (in the LS).

Well there’s how they pretty much show up to bully young budding inventors into giving up their research in the early asura personal story.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

People refuting arguments with actual evidence is not ‘bullying’.

. . . wait, wait, which side are we talking about here? The side who claim evidence, or the side asking for evidence for the claims?

Not that it matters, in the long run, the point’s long buried. But if going “you’re going to need to prove that, chief” is bullying? Well crap, I should have someone shoot me in the back of the head for being a chronic bully.

That’s not at all what I’m saying. It was a response to someone calling people bullies for being against theories. But if someone can present evidence for their opinion/viewpoint then that’s simply all they’re doing, presenting evidence. It’s not bullying. The only situation where it would be bullying is shutting people’s theories down (emphasis on shutting down, rather than simply disagreeing which is fine) when you have no evidence to back up your own or disprove theirs.

I’m just trying to be sure what you’re saying. It’s late and I’m a little giddy at the prospect of maybe some actual tension going on next season rather than slowly pushing the story forward like we have been.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

People refuting arguments with actual evidence is not ‘bullying’.

. . . wait, wait, which side are we talking about here? The side who claim evidence, or the side asking for evidence for the claims?

Not that it matters, in the long run, the point’s long buried. But if going “you’re going to need to prove that, chief” is bullying? Well crap, I should have someone shoot me in the back of the head for being a chronic bully.

ElysianEternity.6215:

@Tobias Trueflight
Every little other thing as in every little other side-story linking to them.

You’re going to need to help me as to how the Southsun Cove events linked to dragons. Or how the Whispers plotline where you have to rescue Demmi Beetlestone for her knowledge of what her father is doing connects to dragons.

Sure, you can go ahead and say “I’m sure it will later down the line” but that’s easily refuted by going “I’m sure it won’t later down the line” due to having exactly the same weight behind it. Heck, Demmi is completely forgotten by now . . .

The Inquest doesn’t have a side-story.

Yes they do. They’re trying to subvert, or keep subverted, Rata Sum’s Arcane Council so they can pretty much do whatever they want and nobody’s got clout to put a stop to it. Not even Zojja.

The Mist War is hardly a story either (yet?)

But it has lore, and it has no connections to dragons. MAYBE to the Six Gods, or the Spirits of the Wild.

I’d hold my breath on the foefire and kryta’s political situation because either still could link to the dragons with the direction Anet is taking. (Example, Political strife caused by > White Mantle > Mursaat > possibly dragons)

That can easily be spun the other way, regardless – the White Mantle is backing the bandits who were at Fort Vandal and Prosperity. The only thing to do with dragons is being forced out of there by what’s going on . . . and possibly forced to move up their timeline to act. But it’s not about dragons, it’s about “taking back Kryta”.

It’s not about what currently is, but about what will be since this smells like a trend right now.

Yeah, but we don’t know what will be in regards to a lot of topics. Frankly, give me two days and I could probably divorce the dragons entirely out of the game starting after Mordremoth is defeated. I’ll even give you a hint how it starts – Rata Sum goes boom.

lordkrall.7241:

The whole story about Shiro is very tied into Abaddon being behind it. The whole attack on the Emperor part of the story (which basically created the whole premises for Factions) were done by having Abaddon send a servant to corrupt and use Shiro.

. . . but it’s not about Abaddon. It’s about Shiro Tagachi, the Betrayer, and his goals. Not Abaddon’s, his own. To be mortal flesh again.

Much of Prophecies can be seen as tied to Abaddon as well. One of the main things being the fact that the Door led directly into his domain. Not to mention the Titans, that were his minions which made the Charr destroy Ascalon with the Searing, thus setting the whole story into action.

But again, the story was rarely about those things, it tended to float. It’s about the resistance of Ascalon in the face of the Searing. No, wait, now it’s about the Prince-in-Exile and his refugees . . . no, wait now it’s about the White Mantle and Shining Blade . . . no, wait, now it’s about seeking Ascension so you can combat the Mursaat . . . no, wait, it’s about . . .

Do you see why I often refer to Prophecies as “barely a singular story”? And while the end chapters may potentially be said to be linked to Abaddon’s will through the Lich? Earlier it’s all about mortals, later it’s about the Mursaat’s catspaw in Kryta and how to break the Mantle . . . it’s not even definitively about Abaddon’s minions (Titans) until the Door of Komalie is shown to open and let them out.

It’s not as strong a link as you want to make it.

The only actual part of Guild Wars 1 that didn’t have connections to Abaddon would have been Eye of the North (which many people keep claiming was the worst of Guild Wars 1), due to it rather setting the stage for Guild Wars 2 rather than continuing the Guild Wars 1 story.

The worst of Guild Wars 1 was Prophecies, from where I stand. Mostly because as I pointed out above . . . it’s a lot of arcs welded together clumsily to take the players from point A to B to C and draw them through all the locations the campaign wants to show off. And it’s clear even later it’s a primer for playing PvP in several places by slowly introducing elements into play.

Honestly, if Prophecies had to be about any one thing it’s about getting led around by the plot because the plot says so.

lordkrall.7241:

Funny how people seems to have an issue with everything (which is not even the case) being about the Dragons and yet the same people usually praise how good Guild Wars 1 was. Despite everything (and that was basically actually everything) was about Abaddon.

Factions wasn’t about Abaddon, it was about Shiro’s attempt to return to life from being an Envoy. That was really the whole plot – Abaddon kicked it off by planting the seeds in his head but he didn’t FORCE Shiro and Shiro didn’t serve him until he was sent to the Realm of Torment.

Debatably, Prophecies wasn’t about Abaddon either . . . but then it changed stories about four or five times through the course of the campaign.

Lastly, Eye of the North was not about Abaddon. At all.

ElysianEternity.6215:

I’ll be blunt and assume you’re not a writer. Or maybe just a novice hobby one. Because it’s rather clear what the advice was about.

There’s a HUGE difference about ‘centered around dragon’s and taking every little thing in the game and say ‘gasp! Dragons did it/relate to it!’

Every little thing in the game isn’t related to dragons. The Inquest, the Flame Legion, the Foefire, the Mist War, the Krytan Political Situation? None of that goes back to the dragons and only to the dragons. And they’re all pretty darn fine threads of work too.

. . . what happened here is a case of “we got what we asked for”. We asked for more focus on the dragons we were supposed to be fighting after LS1 wrapped. Maybe even a bit before when people were highly bored with “Scarlet did it”. Guess whaaaaaaat? Now we got Mordremoth going out and being active.

Some asked for some insight into what happened to Ceara to make Scarlet so bonkers-nuts. Hey, guess what? Now we see what happened, and have an idea of it being a form of dragon corruption like the one Seraph had happen to him . . .

Don’t hastily push it on ANet – players asked for it and we got it. I wish the segments of the journal were a bit thicker and not so . . . thin . . . but it’s written and working better than LS1 was so far.

Caithe is more than willing to shoot the dog when the chips are down. The reason she’s a “good person” and on the protagonist’s side is because she feels it’s necessary. That’s entirely evident by the first sylvari personal story chapter where she’s completely okay with just killing off some star-crossed lovers who turned Nightmare Court without a second thought.

(To make it more conflicted, she can’t quite bring herself to go hunt down Faolain and do the same.)

Sad part, I’m pretty sure Faolain now knows so that sacrifice so long ago? That dark secret she carries around and gnaws at her? Totally pointless. Faolain either knows or is going to find out anyway soon enough.

Six Gods, you thought Logan had it rough with his decision of friends or duty . . .

What order? Shining Blade. They’re built almost on the same idea as the Order of Whispers, from what little we see, and have the actual authority to act above the Ministry Guard or Seraph when the case is clearly about the security of the Krytan throne.

But let’s be honest, the only detective which could really work is one who does not have loyalties and superiors to report back to. No conflict of interest holding them back, and just the actual effort of investigating.

In other words, not even our characters post-Pact if only because we’re beholden to that organization to fight the dragons. It has to be an independent.

Sublimatio.6981:

It felt like we got Divine Fire in reward from Turai – a miserable failer, who did not ascend. We should obtain the Divine Fire from the gods themselves – in Crystal Desert. This is so bad. Even worse than setting a casual portal to Glint’s Lair for plot convenience.

And yet, the Ghostly Hero does hold some place of honor within the Mists in the past age, even if he did not Ascend . . . he is as much a steward of the process in the Crystal Desert as the Forgotten are – he simply could not attain it in life and can only hope to achieve some honor in death with the Heroes’ Ascent.

At least that’s what I recall from the PvP lore of GW1. Which was thin, very thin.

azizul.8469:

what’s social media ?

I think it’s that Flitter thing all the young-uns are on about.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Ah, yes, my mistake. As for exile, it’s possible, but the ashes are Kunai’s, and what we know of him is that he was left to rule after his father took off and that his next of kin ruled after him. The last suggests he wasn’t driven out in disgrace, so unless he too had a benign reason to abandon his duties, he should have died in Kourna.

I haven’t gotten that far, yet, so . . . still speculating.

Divine Fire was the name of the “buff” which you were given at Augury Rock, by the way. Interesting tidbit.

No, Kunai’s history doesn’t come from the patch. It was in the Nightfall manual. In-game all we get is ‘These are the ashes of Kunai Ossa’.

That’s half of what I mean. I haven’t played the patch yet. Still working through “Tangled Paths”.

blakdoxa.7520:

And this is just to be believe as the writers now are likely not the same writers that making up the story about the Sylvari after they were solidified as one of the new races in Tyria.
Might I add that within the game itself Anet has not held to some of their design decisions from the start and flipped them or changed in some sort of way. The story is not safe either as shown through the obvious continuity issues or retcons.
To believe that this reveal was intended from the beginning is simply ridiculous.

Never had a doubt, even once huh!

Well not much can be done about it. It’s still infuriating…

They did the same stuff in GW1, with lore in Nightfall. You think it’s unique to this incarnation of ArenaNet? Heh. I had this conversation once before here on the forums – when you work on a project like this, and you have to move a story forwards but there’s something in the way, you have two options. Either you drop that idea and start over, or you move something so it works.

Guild Wars has a mechanism for that – most of the lore is only revealed via in-character bits and pieces. Anything not firsthand witnessed by the player, but referred to them secondhand or recorded and revealed later? It’s potentially inaccurate. As mechanisms go it’s a bit . . . clumsy, one could say. But at least they’re taking cues from Tolkein on that (Need I remind you about Bilbo’s ‘winning’ of the One Ring, and how it had been significantly different in the first runs of “The Hobbit”?) I haven’t run across a writer which I like who hasn’t relied on the “unreliable narrator” or similar. Timothy Zahn gets a good amount of mileage out of it, in fact. Repeatedly.

Regardless, if we go back to the top and you immediately disbelieve it when one of the writers says “this was rather the plan” and you go “nope, not buying it” . . . why in heck should they bother trying to have a discourse? You’re giving off the aura of not believing anything you haven’t already decided, or fits into your idea of how things are; it would seem to anyone looking you cannot be convinced otherwise, and must pursue your own conclusions in the face of someone telling you otherwise.

Though as I noted above – there’s really no proof which would be a silver bullet to put that skepticism to bed if it’s founded deeply enough. At some point you have to decide if you’re going to disbelieve everything they say or not. Plenty of people here can make a case where that’s a completely rational stance to make.

. . . but it’s not healthy and it doesn’t lead to any meaningful discussion.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Ah, yes, my mistake. As for exile, it’s possible, but the ashes are Kunai’s, and what we know of him is that he was left to rule after his father took off and that his next of kin ruled after him. The last suggests he wasn’t driven out in disgrace, so unless he too had a benign reason to abandon his duties, he should have died in Kourna.

I haven’t gotten that far, yet, so . . . still speculating.

Divine Fire was the name of the “buff” which you were given at Augury Rock, by the way. Interesting tidbit.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Although that begs the question of how the Priory got a hold of the ashes of Turai Ossa’s son (who stayed in Elona and didn’t accompany his father on his botched Ascension), but doesn’t have a single one of the seals forgotten dropped like pocket change in the Crystal Desert.

That doesn’t beg the question, it raises the question.

As for how . . . it is possible he had a son in exile? After all, I seem to recall a lot of what happened to the pilgrims is unspoken of aside from small bits and pieces.

And the seals? I bet there aren’t many which survived. As common as summoning stones were back in the day, they’re spoken of like rare antiquities now. Even the Fire Imp one which a lot of people apparently had, hmmm?

Honestly, the Inquest’s technology is exactly as useful as other asuran technology.

One in three chance of critically failing backfires.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Tamias.7059:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

…

You claim that there has never been any evidence for the “sylvari = dragon minions” theory, and yet you acknowledge that it has been speculated to be the case since release…do you think it’s possible that there have been hints and support for the theory since release, and that you just failed to see them?

Also, you don’t think your rejection of any proposed support for this theory has anything to do with your dislike of it as a story direction? Or is that just a coincidence?

He has a lot of knowledge, just is a bit too stubborn sometimes.

Now I understand the whole change of Scarlet.

Actually it reminds me of something I watched (with popcorn bowl in hand) back in the old EverQuest days – some GMs playing an event left some half-thought hints at the end of a major event and it wasn’t followed up on . . . the potential of it ended when the people who threw the hints out there left the company and the story entered another direction. This, coupled with several beta-based lore bits which were discarded for public release, led to an incredibly well-crafted theory . . . based entirely on a nice foundation of things excluded from canon.

And when I say incredibly well-crafted theory, I’m not being my usual sarcastic self. It really was extremely well, but in the face of most beta lore being rendered “obsolete” and later developments, it got increasingly clear the theory was wrong. But as it couldn’t just be let go for all the work which was put into it (SEVERAL cross-server efforts of fact-finding and lore-searching, actually) . . . it just became the breaking point and the group left en masse when the theories got a deathblow in the . . . fifth? . . . expansion or so.

ThatOddOne.4387:

The problem is evidence was never required. This obsession with it being needed is bizarre.

Speculating and theorising was all that we had because the answer was never given.

The answer has been given now.

Sigh.

When someone makes a claim, they need to present evidence to back their claim and show it’s not just throwing darts at the board and hoping to hit the bulls-eye. Not showing evidence, or saying “I don’t need to, you prove me wrong”, makes it impossible to refute, or even discuss the matter.

Burden of proof is on the one making the claim. I fail to understand how this is “bizarre” thinking. It’s rational thinking, going from points of evidence to a conclusion. Otherwise it’s at best intuitive thinking, which has the potential to be correct but often without concrete basis other than “I just know”. At worst . . . it’s trolling people who actually care about the subject matter by posting things like “Caithe is Gwen’s secret lovechild” and declaring it fact.

. . . that gives me a thought. I’m going to fill a topic of nothing but nonsense claims like that one and not defend them, only keep insisting they are, in fact, completely valid and true “if you read the signs right”.

Slowpokeking.8720:

So the egg of Glint might be useful to break the link between Sylvari and the dragon.

. . . either that or Caithe just wants a crystal dragon omelette.

I still need to play catch-up.

DaShi.1368:

lordkrall.7241:

Where are all these evidence against the theory? As far as I have seen in all the threads there have been quite a few assumptions and such, but never any actual facts that prove one side or the other.

There was evidence that cast doubt on the theory. It required some stretches, but was worthdiscussing. That evidence also had a ton of holes in it that were frequently ignored by those who didn’t like the theory. It is not a surprise that some are so upset because they spent so much time convincing themselves that it couldn’t be, it’s hard to accept it now.

It gets easier to accept if you just finished playing Belcher’s Bluff against Irongut.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Not sure if you guys saw this, but Angel McCoy wrote,

“The sylvaris’ origins have been part of their design from the very beginning, since well before we launched the game. Kudos to those who figured it out before the revelation.”

Well, if we’re being on the other side of things: of course she wrote that, it’s one of the biggest tricks to making a sudden invention seem planned all along – you say it was always planned and reference notes and written things nobody outside the company can actually see. And of course, the company would back other employees up on that.

. . . I play way, way too much with people who enjoy mind games.

Corana.9837:

As with all lore within books, games and anything else the information found within is not necessarily fact.

Something Guild Wars has done for more than a few times in its life, even in the first set of games.

I know where I stand.

Drop Ghostfire on all of the Silverwastes from airships. It’s the only way to be sure.

(Thanks to the charr for inventing napalm, by the way.)

. . . sigh. Well, let’s see my track record so far with GW2.

“Mordremoth is an elder dragon” proven right after repeatedly arguing there was only one skill hinting at it, requiring very careful reading of combat logs and a boatload of assumptions. I was okay with this because I wasn’t having a problem with the idea so much as the flimsy evidence to support it.

“Pale Tree was a dragon minion/champion” apparently proven right, after I’ve argued first how it was less likely that was the case, then argued just because they were intelligent plants they need not be connected to Mordremoth, but they probably are more susceptible to its corruption.

I don’t even know why I argue lore anymore, because I’m now halfway certain the next twist is having Kormir (the goddess) killed off to prove why the Six Gods don’t intervene with the Elder Dragons. Just to appease the people still salty over her.

Worblehat.8697:

So inconsistent…

That’s part of my complaint. The other is: “So how exactly does doing this relate to the Trait Mastery getting unlocked?”

At least with Elite Skills your target would use it. (This was a considerable problem with some of them.) After they changed the capture system, it was not too bad but the initial one was even more BS than Traits are now.

How?

You had to have the Signet of Capture ready, and you needed to hit it while targeting the user, while they were using it. For some of the Elites I just can’t see how that worked at all.

Worblehat.8697:

All I did was ask a very simple question about why everyone else felt the SP part of the unlock costs was the worst part, while I consider the gold cost to be worse. Astral Projections and naiasonod understood that perfectly well and gave clear and helpful answers. I’m upset at the prospect of losing an arm, the rest of you are more upset at the prospect of losing a leg, either way it’s ridiculous.

I can make the gold to work with the costs, and I still think the cost is pretty bad. The SP can be gotten around, sure, especially if you’re running map completions or champ trains enough to have barrels of scrolls.

The alternative costs are . . . a bit crazy. Added to one of them having a very specific unlock (Take the Gates of Arah . . . not defend, but take them) and you have a problem. Especially since any trip I make to Cursed Shore, that’s been left in the defense mode for ages.

DanF Griffin.3876:

Tobias Trueflight,
Your Elona liberation plan is brilliant! I think that would work, there are undoubtedly a few Noble families and High ranking Seraph Officers of Elona descent in Kryta. So, getting together a council or task force to put this together should be easy. Not to mention no one would even question if Kryta were assembling a larger force and logistics tail than what was necessary. People would just assume the Humans were over-planning the whole thing.

Frankly, it’s been on my mind for a while now and it’s a lot better than trying to reach Cantha via boat. And besides, there is . . . another way:

Hit Primordius’ minions and try to retake the Central Transfer Chamber, and in the process get the asura gate to outside Kamadan running again.

Then you have a gate to move materiel through. The trouble is this drops any spearhead into Istan, and with less likelihood of getting off the island to mainland Elona as opposed to coming down through the Crystal Desert and Desolation. But this way it’s possible to go for a more symbolic victory by taking the Sunspear Great Hall.

In regards to New Ascalon I agree, this depends a lot on the good will of the Charr. The within 10 years comment was to the fact is 10 years later New Ascalon would have a larger population base, and would be able to serve as a true launching point for an expedition instead of just a pass through.

In ten years the area you set aside as “New Ascalon” is still going to have a larger chance of more charr force near it than humans, unless humans can diplomatically push for it. In which case, there’s little need to discuss military options at all and more to figure out how they can bargain for the territory.

Personally, I think it’s obvious how to get the charr to allow the humans to start a New Ascalon. Send the Ebon Vanguard to the Sentinels and earn the goodwill by fighting the Branded. Heck, even get them to fully take over operations near Ebonhawke in the Brand. To get the charr’s respect, proving you have the will and the ability to fight is essential.

Once you have their respect and a good record for fighting mutual enemies intently, there’s a much better base for wanting to start New Ascalon . . . in ten years’ time. Not through having the numbers to do it, not through having gathered the might of many divisions of Vanguard, but through getting the charr to go “you know what, you’ve proven you’re willing to work with us, so we’ll trust you to keep that frontier safe”.

In regards to putting the Charr in a bind, I was working off the belief that the Ghosts would disappear in only the area within New Ascalon. Not within Ascalon as a whole. Basically, any lands New Ascalon controlled would become Ghost free, while the Charr are stuck with them.

But we know that’s not how it works. The Foefire Ghosts attack anyone.

As I stated in the opening posts the whole idea of New Ascalon to be founded upon a final peace treaty with the Charr, not to be carved out without the Charr’s support or permission.

Well, as I said, there’s no way it could ever be otherwise. If the humans were to try to seize the lands themselves by force or trickery? The charr, it is my opinion, would not hesitate to simply drop a hammer so big it’d make the Searing look like a backyard barbecue.

I use Signet of the Hunt to get around and to help me sort of . . . sequence break some of the jumping puzzles. I turn it off when I don’t necessarily need the speed boost to run around great distances (defense in WvW, event chains where I can be sure someone’s dropping fields for it…).

Don’t really need much more than that.