Guild Wars 2

Thing to be checked:
Where did you try the Rapid Fire?

Downscale is now nerfed and Upscale is now (edit) buffed.
If it was a low level region – all damage got nerfed. Not only RF.

Everyone got their Toughness increased by 150 (baseline). The difference in the formula got tipped more to defense.

5% from Eagle Eye is gone.

Apart from that, I haven’t seen a single change in damage.

Wuselknusel.4082:

So you say that everyone keeps walking into you, so that you can get a triple kill?

People have to if they want to get a point… Especially the experienced players.

mistsim.2748:

ran into a couple of trap rangers today, they were pretty effective. spike trap knockdown is OP. you just need to play around with it some. you can go very tanky with traps, wildnerness knowledge, quickdraw and rabid stats.

Thank you for supporting my dreams by being a witness.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Hidden Pistol. It only works if you are a Charr. 3/4s Evade on a 15s CD is pretty nice and its a projectile finisher as well.

Oooooh, I see.
I’m waiting for my time to answer Mordremoth’s call… So … I had no idea.

I actually agree with Wuselknusel

Don’t use longbow 4. Ever. I got flamed for saving my team member by interrupt-pushing the boss away from our downed Guardian.

I realized I feel better dying or wiping than being flamed for saving the guy.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Tragic Positive.9356:

But one thing I’ll definitely want to try.
…
The full evade Hybrid Ranger. I mean … Sword+Dagger; Shortbow
Lightning Reflexes, Zephyr, Muddy Terrain, Entangle.

Tango Ranger, anyone?

Yeah, pretty keen on this too, but I’ll be throwing Hidden Pistol in there too

Hidden- who?
Where did you get that? I want one too. Or am I just missing something?

But one thing I’ll definitely want to try.
…
The full evade Hybrid Ranger. I mean … Sword+Dagger; Shortbow
Lightning Reflexes, Zephyr, Muddy Terrain, Entangle.

Tango Ranger, anyone?

NapTooN.6283:

I started leveling an Asura Ranger since my Sylvari Ranger can not use TB. In the end he will be using SB/GS with Storm Spirit and TB. The Rest is open/flexible

With MoC and Rune of the Mesmer, i have 2x 8 second Dazes, 1x 4 second Daze and 1x ~2,5 second Daze. On Top of that i Play with Pink + Black Moa for another 2 second Daze each.

Rune of Mesmer does not stack with MoC. Just saying.

Just as Kodama says.

We can’t say for sure – but Rangers have some damage to offer. And even if it’s not the meta – it will do just fine. Stick around, take a sip of that coffee and enjoy your stay. Ranger is fun to play.

roamzero.9486:

Simplest way to make it interesting would just be to make it something like “Damage you deal and take is 50% more while under 50% health”. High risk/high reward

That would be amazing. We already have access to Quickness and Enlargement. This kind of Kill or be Killed would be definitely interesting.

Not worth the Grandmaster, but numbers could get a tweak or two. Like receiving 25% bonus damage but dealing 50% more (conditions included). Something like that.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Had another idea for MDG.

Forget the 50% condition, it is too hard to balance around, because it is so unreliable for us to trigger and counter-intuitive to stay in that condition.

MDG; Whenever you gain Might, your pet gains it too. Whenever you swap weapons, you gain 5 might for 7s. Might you apply has a 20% longer duration.

What about that one? Synergy with the other swap traits, our signets, “RaO” and ability to stack might on the pet without FB.

Nothing resembles the MDG.
But the concept sounds like one I can imagine I’d use.

Some interesting buffs came our way. Of course nothing mentioned at Patch Notes. I’m strangely pleased.

Yes, I agree on most of these points.
But we still haven’t tested those smaller-scoped windows and environments. With the new Stronghold that has that number of narrow paths and gates – traps might get a viable place even with the nerf they got.

Because regardless of being nerfed – they were also buffed. And if they have at least any placement in the game we still have to see. I don’t know… Kiting might become much easier (for example). Forcing enemies to pass a deadly entrance may be important for objectives…

Again – yes – I agree that traps lost their former purpose, but they might gain another that might as well be worth it. Because I don’t remember any ranger in sPvP higher ranks playing Trapper. At all.
If we get at least a very situational purpose of traps – I’d be fine with it. We got plenty of other options for WvW.

Spike Trap has a huge potential of setting up combos for several builds even without the trap trait. Ice Trap might become a defensive option for melee builds for the Ice Field and disruption that naturally is a form of sustain.
I have no idea yet. But it shouts out for a potential. In PvP on-point battle – there’s no way that the trap would hold untriggered for longer than a second. It’s different in 1v1, but this game isn’t about 1v1 anyways.

EDIT: Don’t forget that now – traps were used as conditions that you didn’t provide with weapons. After the change – they would add to the fire by stacking with all the conditions you can provide. That is a buff, too.

Holland.9351:

have conditions on me
switch to brown bear and press f2 (on passive)
brown bear runs to enemy and tries to clear him of conditions

gg brown bear. gg.

Brown bear just needs a little AI adjustment to not run towards the enemy first. Red Moa doesn’t do it for example.

I’m aware of this and this is an issue that needs to be addressed. But that isn’t a global problem as the OP suggests.
As you said – other pets with similar mechanic doesn’t suffer from this handicap and it’s Brown Bear related only.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Yeah exactly. Keep talking, salty soul, I wont stop you. But let’s go back to the “it works as intended” thing you’ve mentioned. So when I target an enemy and activate my wolf’s F2, what do I expect? That my wolf starts running to the enemy and activating his F2 when he’s in range? Or that my wolf activates his F2 immediately? Both ways would be perfectly fine. But instead my wolf decided to run to me and use his fear when I am in his range. If that’s not a bug/lazy programming, then I don’t know what is.

I have no idea. I never had an issue with my wolf other than my personal fails. I never experienced a situation where a pet would run towards me unless I missclicked. If there is a bug – it should be fixed.

But to what you said about :
- Is the pet supposed to run to get into range and cast the ability
or
- Is the pet supposed to cast the ability on spot

… We currently have both. I have no idea which one is correct and I don’t really care since we have access to both of them. Why your wolf betrayed you – I have no idea. My never did that if I didn’t accidentally asked him to.

• Higher DPS on traps without traits then before update, roughly same or slightly lover after the changes
• Bonus CC and access to longer cripple duration
• Bonus direct damage to Ice Trap and buffed duration noticeably
• 1 trait needed instead of 3
• 0,5s arming time
• Buffed sustain and condition cleanse thanks to Healing Spring convert.

The only real but definitely more severe nerf:
- Are no longer ranged.

But one thing that came into my mind… I think there was a statement saying “enemies are not so stupid to stay inside traps and will walk out”
… Don’t you think that new spike trap addressed the issue with much higher precision and effectiveness than previous Range? You could throw it at them but they would just walk out. Now if they walk into them they’ll have to blow their stun-breaker or suffer twice as much.

You are basically too skeptical to have the right to claim that your opinion has more facts to support the statement.
I still think that while people waste their time complaining how things are impossible – others may as well be already doing them.

And I’m positive that my summary shows that they have the potential. Your complaint shows nothing but something that we all noticed a long time ago. A lost mechanic hand in hand with game-style.

Wuselknusel.4082:

All I hear you saying is that “It doesn’t fit the theme of traps”, which is virtually the same thing as “It’s not realistic”. Traps do trap people. They trap them no matter if they were thrown or layed down. The fact that we used to be able to throw them shows that ANet hasn’t a problem either with not hitting your definition of the “trap theme”.

It shows that they didn’t have a problem with that and now they probably do.
Just as I say the traps are better defined with current mechanics – all you do is keep repeating that you want your grenades back.
We are still at an even ground. The only difference is that I’m willing to test Anet’s changes and you keep complaining.

StickerHappy.8052:

Wuselknusel.4082:

Please just post your moments when your pet has utterly failed you.

Here is mine, this just happened. I was low on HP and out of resources. I ran away from a LB Ranger and used a corner to lose LoS. At that corner, I ordered my wolf to use his fear, so that the Ranger, when he gets around the corner, gets feared away. But instead of channeling his fear, my wolf continued to follow me. The LB Ranger got around the corner and downed me. As my pet closes up to me, it suddenly starts channeling his fear, completely useless, completely wasted. This AI is useless. Simple as that.

I would suggest detargetting before using the Canine f2s, so that they cast it immediately on the spot.

This. The original poster was experiencing a fail in control of his pet. The way to get the wanted effect is in-game working as intended and available.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Well yes. I don’t remember a single second where traps were used for siege. Do you? But I know that traps were used to lure and capture or kill animals/enemies/trespassers etc in your or enemy territory by not moving a single finger till the trap went off. Which means ambushes. And yes, ambush is a semi-defensive tactic because you are on the defensive till the trap succeeds. You can go offensive afterwards.

Or are you trying to tell me that there was a time period in a parallel universe where people charged at enemy army throwing traps into their faces? Because that’s news to me.
I actually laughed a bit reading “triggering traps” as an argument of offensive use. Every working trap triggers. What kind of statement is that?

About the reply to the 2nd part:
Have you heard of invulnerability? Evades? Healing? Yes? Then how in the world is this argument valid? It’s the same as saying “damage is pointless because everyone can evade it and everyone can heal back up from it”.
But if this kind of passively-aggressive discussion is what people enjoy these days, I can tag along.

Oh, the “It’s not realistic” argument again?

So please tell me how warrior banners are realistic. Called in from the sky, they give you specific boons. Or how realistic the usage of greatswords are in this game. The Ranger can block arrows with his greatsword, the Warrior can whirl around like a madman or sprint like there is no tomorrow, the Guardian can pull people in.

Or tell me how realistic Eles, Necros, Mesmers or the Thief’s stealth is.

It’s not about realism, it’s about gameplay mechanic. Throwable traps offer a varied mechanic, such as reaching places you can’t go to or cutting people’s way of by throwing traps in front of them. The usual traps can only be layed down and you have to somehow manage to bait the enemy into it.

So the only playstyle left, that is not completely nerfed after this patch, is playing defensive in PvP. Playing offensive in WvW, defensive in WvW or offensive in PvP wont be possible anymore. Simply as that.

Correct me if I’m wrong. I wasn’t the one who came here with “history” on his proud hands. I was the one who said that traps with their current 0,5s arming time better fit the definition of a trap.

I also said that if traps are supposed to feel like traps – they can maintain their range – but would have to get a nerf in arming time. And we don’t want that, do we? The same QQ of “not fair – I can’t use them as granades anymore” would flood the forums but that would hit melee point-defending uses as well. Of course, synergy with runes would get better.

And I haven’t even said one time that the game-play change was in place. If you had the will to read through other topics, you’d see that I disagree with erasing a game-mechanic.
But I’ll still defend my statement that however much the traps were changed – they finally feel more like traps. It was a nerf – I agree on that – I’m not saying you guyz are wrong – I’m just saying that you haven’t tested a single #!&@ outside of your “ranged stealth AoE bombs” bubbles and you keep presenting how useless they are in ranged combat. Yes! Of course they are. Because they were changed drastically.

But you know just as much as I do that sPvP is all about defending points (and here the use makes sense, right?). And I do see the potential in them because I am not chained by history and the only thing that goes through my mind is being able to adapt. Not crying over something that I lost for whichever reason.

If they won’t have a single use anywhere in any game mode with any trait and weapon builds including Path of Scars for forced activation or what not (I still have no idea what I’m going to test, but there will be a lot) – then I will agree that their changes are stupid, Anet has no idea about how their game works and patch changes were a giant disappointment.
But if there are viable or meta builds that we still haven’t tested (it took years to discover some of today’s meta) and the only thing you guyz do is keep bit**ing about your precious loss of invisible bomber than there’s not much else to say. If you want to complain about loss of former game-style – complain about that, not about something that none of us have an idea about, yet. You only found out that Traps are not grenades anymore.

I’m actually looking forward to Moment of Clarity GS+Shortbow combination.
So many stun-breakers blown.

I can’t wait to see the GS/SB, Taunt, Hyena, Spike Trap frustration. If nothing else – for roaming in WvW I’d have my wonderful moments of joy.

Yup, old trapper Ranger is no longer within us.

A moment of silence for this unique game-style.

The poem is actually hitting every single point, even though I believe some parts are pretty overreacting. But yep, it’s got a point.
If traps keep any of their place in our build diversity – it’s going to be an absolutely different game-style and purpose.

Firelysm.4967:

@Tragic Positive.9356

Traps should be defensive. Not offensive. And they can slap some serious a** at the moment.
Ranged AoE knockdown on 20 second cooldown that cannot be blocked? Yea, sure, I would like that too.

The kitten? Since when are traps only defensive? In what part of the history it says in middle age people and war tactics were using traps only for defensive tactics? How about hunting, triggering traps and tons of other ways to use them for.

About 2nd part, I bet you’ve heard for stun breakers ? Stability? Yes? good.

Well yes. I don’t remember a single second where traps were used for siege. Do you? But I know that traps were used to lure and capture or kill animals/enemies/trespassers etc in your or enemy territory by not moving a single finger till the trap went off. Which means ambushes. And yes, ambush is a semi-defensive tactic because you are on the defensive till the trap succeeds. You can go offensive afterwards.

Or are you trying to tell me that there was a time period in a parallel universe where people charged at enemy army throwing traps into their faces? Because that’s news to me.
I actually laughed a bit reading “triggering traps” as an argument of offensive use. Every working trap triggers. What kind of statement is that?

About the reply to the 2nd part:
Have you heard of invulnerability? Evades? Healing? Yes? Then how in the world is this argument valid? It’s the same as saying “damage is pointless because everyone can evade it and everyone can heal back up from it”.
But if this kind of passively-aggressive discussion is what people enjoy these days, I can tag along.

I still think that people don’t realize what will

• Knockdown; 6 stacks of bleed
• 15 seconds of AoE chilled
• automatic reapplication of Burning/Poison

do with your enemies. Half of the defensive abilities are going to be blown just from entering your point.
Not potent at all?

As already said: I’m fine if the traps can be thrown. But that would ask for higher arming time (1 / 1,5 seconds? ) for enemies to have chance to walk out of there (I’d like to see your rage at that point, guyz).
Ranged AoE knockdown on 20 second cooldown that cannot be blocked? Yea, sure, I would like that too.
And that’s why it’s wrong to have it. Traps should be defensive. Not offensive. And they can slap some serious a** at the moment. But you need to know why and where to use them.

Firelysm.4967:

…

Definition of ranger is a master of tracking and master of bow

…

This again… ?

But yes, I’m aware of traps having severe issues.
But I’m not sure if you were talking about Bunker Builds or not. That place has a real tendency to spike up since you can get some serious CC and condi bombing hand in hand with disruption.

If you lure the enemy into the traps of yours, with so many condition damage paired with your own you can pull off now since everything will stack is just over the horizon.

If you fail to see that than the text you wrote is just as valid as the statement that I highlighted. Everyone who plays for a while already knows what I’m talking about and I don’t feel like repeating it again. You’d ignore it anyways.

But I’ll risk it and say that you have been misunderstanding ranger for a Hunter. This is not World of Warcraft.

Strategist.6132:

Thanks for compliment I guess! Maybe you were right that it is partly a human factor too, they are definitely not Overpowered in the general sense, and organized teams can indeed take them out well. I don’t see rangers in tournaments often either, so I guess it would be nice if ranger got some cool options to choose from.

Anyways, thanks everyone for the discussion and for providing some new insights! I’ll watch this topic for a while but I probably won’t post new information.

Have a nice week!

The pleasure is on our side, Sir.
We were glad to have you here. Show up anytime you feel like it. We appreciate people with open minds and constructive feedback.

Good luck on your side, too!

DarkSyze.8627:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc6LZTwamPI

Is that all?

In a game mode where the goal is to maintain map dominance for which you need hundreds of people; using several weapons and swaps, 4 seconds of preparation, an enemy without reflects, an enemy without awareness, a solo situation and zero defensive abilities, considering the enemies were mostly paper…

Yes, that’s pretty much exactly what happens. And yes – that’s all. That build cannot do anything else than this besides dying a lot.

Bran.7425:

Tragic Positive.9356:

Just to define what a trap is.
If you are putting down a trap – it needs to feel like setting one.

I personally didn’t like that traps now (before HoT changes) were literally grenade bombing abilities. It didn’t feel like a trap – it wasn’t used as a trap – it didn’t have anything in common with the term at all.

I can see some potential in them now – but mostly as a defender. That exactly is the point of trap anyways.

Basically he has the thoughts of the change right, but there is probably a bit of the standard ‘too similar to x’ which seems to be the issue with the development of the ranger in general and this particular case it was engineer.

Well, I agree on that.
And I think that the Range on traps could stay… But in order to feel like a trap – the detonation time would have to go up. Which is another nerf that we really don’t need.

If I was a developer, I’d probably solve this issue the same way as casting them at your position.

@Lazze
I definitely agree that this option of range increase of off-hand weapons should have at least be mentioned.

If I hate anything in game changes – it’s stealth nerfing. If I’m getting nerfed without any logical explanation – I just want to know why did developers decide that way. I’m even fine if they say they “didn’t find cool that abilities got an unintended effects such as <distance travelled…>”.
But saying nothing at all, nerfing it regardless of not being powerful while some mechanics such as the Dagger #4 distance travelled hindered our game-styles is not cool.

But it might be just another misstep just as the heals being classified. They might have just forgotten to mention they made some of the off hand skills (or all of them) baseline.

We’ll get our chance to complain once this gets confirmed.

Strategist.6132:

Tragic Positive.9356:

Strategist.6132:

Lazze.9870:

Strategist.6132:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

This gets brought up every time, and every time people seem to forget the simple fact that Rapid Fire’s channel duration was lowered. Before two dodges migated less of the damage. The actual damage is the same, it’s just the damage per second that is higher.

This isn’t something new, people only come to realize this after several other changes to the ranger made LB builds more viable in PvP.

What most people also seem to forget is that Rapid Fire benefits immensly from Sigil of Air and Fire. You got 10 hits to proc both them, that’s a huge chunk of the damage which actually doesn’t come from the skill itself, but from sigils due do the nature of channeled skills.

Mmm I don’t really understand what you mean. You mean that the skill description is wrong and it lasts for less then 2.5 seconds? Do you know how long it takes now?

No no, he means that it was buffed at some time to have 50% reduced cast time. Before that, the weapon was never ever used. Anywhere. PvP, PvE, WvW – it didn’t have a single viable place.

And the only buff it received was the cast time. Which means nothing really in particular. Maybe only that the damage was even harder to negate by dodges, right?

Yea, I mean, of course the spike got buffed, but the overall DPS hardly changed.

Aha! So it used to last around 3+ seconds? (or before it started shooting?) Thanks for clarifying though. I think Rapid Fire in WvW is fine though! (I mean there are some other cheesy things over there if you talk about damage:P) Just in sPvP I think it’s a bit too strong for just 1 click on the button. With strong I don’t really mean the damage perse but more like the counterability of it for some classes/builds, and the sigil procs which make it do even more damage. It does look like though that this is one of the only viable builds for Ranger. But who knows what HoT will bring! I should take a look:P

Yes, indeed. It had a 5 second cast time.
Well, as I see it, Ranger in his Power Builds have always been about those on-hit effects. And I’m fine with that, I kind of like it. It’s kind of class-defining.

You seem to be the only guy who came to discuss the issue on adult level. I like you, Sir. And you are definitely right about the HoT. We still are far from knowing how the things will go and we’ll have to see and adapt afterwards.

If the longbow game-style becomes too out of hand, I’m fine with getting a little bit of tweak over here and there to fit the meta in another way. But currently as we are – the longbow is not really powerful at all. I mean – organized groups have really easy time dealing with this issue and will have the same after the changes as well. We’ll get some more breathing room and utility to hopefully make our way into tournaments after such a long time – we really deserve it.

I agree that the ranged damage is a nuisance but it’s only uncomfortable, not troublesome. If you take into account everything a Ranger can do – you don’t have a slightest problem fighting against them. I actually sip my coffee against LB rangers currently with my celestial setup and I usually go out winning and on 80% HP.

The reasoning behind why people find LB rangers a trouble is nothing else but human factor. And that’s fine. People that don’t know where is the Ranger’s limit have hard time countering them. The rest has a child’s play.

But in my opinion – Heart of Thorns offers new ways of dealing with LB rangers. We are going to get way more candy to play Longbow Ranger but much more salt is getting into other classes’ options, too. Which means that Longbow Rangers will have easier time tearing through unprepared enemies and will get countered harder by those prepared.

And I definitely like this “Sniper patience” game-style. I won’t probably play it anyways but I like the context regardless.

Strategist.6132:

Lazze.9870:

Strategist.6132:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

This gets brought up every time, and every time people seem to forget the simple fact that Rapid Fire’s channel duration was lowered. Before two dodges migated less of the damage. The actual damage is the same, it’s just the damage per second that is higher.

This isn’t something new, people only come to realize this after several other changes to the ranger made LB builds more viable in PvP.

What most people also seem to forget is that Rapid Fire benefits immensly from Sigil of Air and Fire. You got 10 hits to proc both them, that’s a huge chunk of the damage which actually doesn’t come from the skill itself, but from sigils due do the nature of channeled skills.

Mmm I don’t really understand what you mean. You mean that the skill description is wrong and it lasts for less then 2.5 seconds? Do you know how long it takes now?

No no, he means that it was buffed at some time to have 50% reduced cast time. Before that, the weapon was never ever used. Anywhere. PvP, PvE, WvW – it didn’t have a single viable place.

And the only buff it received was the cast time. Which means nothing really in particular. Maybe only that the damage was even harder to negate by dodges, right?

Yea, I mean, of course the spike got buffed, but the overall DPS hardly changed.

Klonko.8341:

Tragic Positive.9356:

I don’t really find it that harsh.

We got Quick Draw that will provide you with 2 evades instead of one. And for that – the range abuse might as well got tuned down.
I don’t see a problem with this change. Daggers will still be a viable choice for many builds – especially the ones that focus on evades. And you don’t need Ambidexterity if you intend to focus on power evade specs. Quick Draw will buff that role just fine.

Dagger #4 without range is just digusting for me. I mean it would be like flaking strike (thief sword #3) that say on place with an evade. Its just doesnt feel good… and in practice is lack luster.

Well…
… I don’t see a thematic reason for Dagger to be a gap closer. I mean – I think sword should be the one to have some, but definitely not the dagger. Dagger is supposed to be the elusive/defensive dancing weapon that – in my personal opinion – fits just well.

Of course that’s just how I feel it and you guyz might have a different opinion. But even in real life historic weapon combat – dagger is never used as a weapon to charge at your enemy.

Frost Spirit should hold it’s unique DPS boost. If it doesn’t – the ranger will loose any place in PvE as it is.

Apart from that – ideas I like.

Firelysm.4967:

Klonko.8341:

Because of trapper rune abuse I guess. They might plan to make them PvP.

There is no trapper rune in PvP.
How about two questions that i posted, any clue?

Just to define what a trap is.
If you are putting down a trap – it needs to feel like setting one.

I personally didn’t like that traps now (before HoT changes) were literally grenade bombing abilities. It didn’t feel like a trap – it wasn’t used as a trap – it didn’t have anything in common with the term at all.

I can see some potential in them now – but mostly as a defender. That exactly is the point of trap anyways.

I don’t really find it that harsh.

We got Quick Draw that will provide you with 2 evades instead of one. And for that – the range abuse might as well got tuned down.
I don’t see a problem with this change. Daggers will still be a viable choice for many builds – especially the ones that focus on evades. And you don’t need Ambidexterity if you intend to focus on power evade specs. Quick Draw will buff that role just fine.

@strategist
Thieves have access to the smoke screen. Of course, this isn’t ever picked to PvP since it’s potential is against Rangers (Or Morph necros) only…
… But then again, every other class is more valuable on point than 1200+ range away from it.

Moreover – one other fact to add to Rapid Fire
- the chance to apply on-crit-procs (like sigils) is close to guaranteed.

The thing is:
… Rapid fire is the only ability that a Ranger has to deal spike damage. Also, the only thing the class brings to a fight is damage unlike other classes. If damage is the only thing we can bring – we might as well be best at it.
You know… We have no easy access to higher ground, our mobility is low, our damage can be tracked and countered easier than others (no real burst like backstab or kill shot).

If our only reason we can be viable (and yet worst at the role : see competitive scene) is nerfed – we need a huge compensation for that. And I mean a massive one. Heart of Thorns offered lots of classes projectile denial or reflects – which means you can build your team to have a member to potentially fill this role of anti-Ranger.
You are never alone in this game and you can’t (and shouldn’t) balance this game around 1v1.

LughLongArm.5460:

5% for both damage and condi duration is quite high for a stackble buff. If it will be on evade, you find yourself many times evade several attacks with one evade ability, aslo this buff is workign with every weapon and not just the SB(GS evade on AA for example). Keep it at 5%, make it on evade, I dont think its even needs a cap, rarly u’ll get it buff you for more than 20% for 4 sec.

Nope, you have that wrong.

After dodging your damage and condition duration is increased by 5% for the next 4 seconds. Shortbow skills recharge 20% faster and pierce.

It means that after you perform a dodge roll you’ll get 5% damage boost for 4 seconds. Keep in mind that a dodge roll lasts for 0,75 seconds which leaves you only 4 seconds of 5% bonus damage or 3,25 seconds of 10% bonus damage.
Without Vigor – your recharge rate of dodge roll is 1 per 8,33 seconds.

It doesn’t really sound that awesome now, I’m afraid.

• Predator’s Onslaught is a no.1 pick for PvE. Your statement here is absolutely wrong.
• MDG – correct. Never ever going to be picked.
• Invigorating Bond – correct. Never going to be picked unless it welcomes a buff.
• Honex Axes – incorrect. You would like the AoE chill that is on such a short cooldown. The Ferocity part of the trait is wrong, but that doesn’t make the trait useless.

• Poison Master – slightly incorrect. Never ever going to be picked.
• Light on Your Feet – most probably situational. If you really want the piercing from Shortbow-you’d like this trait (multi-hit stun, bleeds, cripple). The damage boost is low, though.
• Empathic Bond – this trait would be picked only for builds that can’t afford survival skills. There’s no “consideration”. You have a clear answer that you have to go into this line for PvP, and you have been answered which of the 2 you are going to take according to your build.

Wilderness Knowledge – not really too strong. It just has the best potential. Conditions that can be cleansed on demand and can “stack” up to 10 condi cleanse in a few seconds? Definitely better than EB. But EB provides more Condi Transfer per second assuming the cooldown on your abilities.

Quick Draw – yes. Definitely too good for other traits to compete. The thing is – this trait is the only trait that might make us viable and the only trait that will make the ranger more fun.

Beastly Warden is indeed a very good choice. But depending on spirits – I can see the Nature’s Vengeance being as potential. You know, one of the spirits may pulse protection too, and 33% uptime is to be noted. Aegis can be the boon, too. The only thing is Invigorating Bond that has been explained already.

I’ll add that Empathic bond could welcome a buff of sort. I don’t care if the druid has a trait that increases your pet’s damage by X% for every condition it has, or the condition number goes up, or every condition it transfers will be turned into a boon according to the patch changes.

Currently it’s just a “trait we are forced to pick” because we have no other source of condi cleanse.

The whole point is that people ignore the fact that 30% of that are the sigils that can’t be dodged, blocked or negated.

They proc only if the damage crits – and is applied exactly at the time when it happens. So if you negated 8 out of 10 attacks, you are still probably going to suffer a 3K spike from sigils alone. But that is an issue that has nothing in common with Rapid Fire and people should finally realize that.

Rapid Fire isn’t overpowered or overly strong ability. It’s the fact that the ability is classified as 10 hits which is a wonderful subject for on-hit effects.
And this, my dear “RF=OP” friends can be abused both sides. You should try to learn it.

Lazze.9870:

Tragic Positive.9356:

We got more than enough possibilities with live traits. Believe me. That asked for a Nerf.

I’m excited abobut the changes, you know that. And it was strong, a potential overkill, I’m fully aware of that. Doesn’t change the fact that we only got one way to play around with the minors. To me, that’s a little disappointing, but at least they adknowledge how lackluster the current opening strike is.

That being said, there are other traits I would rather have them take a second look at.

Definitely. This is what I’m thinking about. While people are bringing up traits that already seem fine for both sides (rangers and their enemies), the most important underwhelming issues have been put to dirt and not mentioned again ever.

For example… Why was instinctive reaction HealingPower>Power transfer nerfed? The design was debatable even before, so I don’t see a reason to nerf an already strange trait…
There are almost no builds that would like to focus on healing power and power at the same time. There aren’t any. In case you want to run Valkyrie, you will gain 50 bonus power. If you want to run Cleric – you’ll gain 130 power without any ferocity or precision – which is pretty horrible for a Ranger that has no burst abilities and focuses on stable direct damage application (channel-like).

It might change if my numbers on Remorseless Cleric are wrong and the build actually becomes powerful… But that build wasn’t even close to others I ran the numbers on.

I absolutely agree with borya

Rapid Fire is fine and always has been. Rangers lack other mechanics which other classes possess. Moreover, I believe you are talking about PvP and not PvE. Which means you are not playing a solo game. If you are – you have no right to claim what’s OP and what is not assuming that WvW groups and sPvP parties pick roles that fill each others lack to compensate this handicap.

That being said – Rapid Fire is the only burst ability a ranger has. Every other zerk class has several of them. Which basically means that Ranger is hard countered by reflects, retaliation and being focused (other classes have escapes).

If you have problems with dealing with a ranger – the issue is most definitely at your side. No competitive player rolls a Ranger. And there’s a reason for it.

My thoughts are something supporty like this:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-J73Fk;0wEFt-a2VDF-0;9-6A;1_ab;0136247256;4V717X;1ZF18ZF189M

Solid AoE condition cleanse, some disruption from Beast Mastery, some AoE weakness, huge chunk of survivability and considerable condition damage.
The perma AoE swiftness and Regeneration is to be loved as well.

I might have gone a bit wrong at some places, but basically this “Ranger Shoutbow” version sounds totally legit. And you also bring a fire field to the table.
I’ll definitely give the build a try. If I miscalculated, I’ll realize it sooner or later.

Lazze.9870:

It pidgeonhole us into taking Remorseless for simply getting something out of the three minors, that’s my main problem about it. The cooldown on our signets are way too long to abuse the proposed signet trait, but it still gave us a bit more to play around with without neglecting the minor traits.

The new Remorseless is great, but it only partly solves what used to be the problem, the mere fact that the only trait we had to utlize the minors was horrible. Now we have a great trait for it, but it is still just one trait. I’m all for about having tough choices, but those choices shouldn’t make the minor traits obsolete.

They could at least have merged Predator’s Instinct and Onslaught, and an add OS on signet use as a seperate adept trait if they felt the old signet trait was too strong.

I can imagine that a Longbow Swapped > 125% Auto Attack crit > Signet of the Wild > 150% Auto Attack Crit > Zephyr > 150% Auto attack crit > Rapid Fire into 25 vulnerability (3 hits of you and a pet with Opening strikes) > 2 hits and another Rapid Fire into all that would be way too powerful.

Yes, that was my 1st idea that ran through my mind. A hybrid of the signet and Wilderness Knowledge. A super skilled ranger could force a target into downed state even now. After this change? Nope. That would be an Armageddon.

We got more than enough possibilities with live traits. Believe me. That asked for a Nerf.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

you described flexibility in all of that text , quick draw makes you Flexiable..opens up all the combination you mentioned, its build Defining not mandatory, you can easly play to the same damage and level without it.

its a choice people make , the traits don’t choose for us, you want faster combos good go choose Quickdraw because that is what Defines your build/ play style.
Anet don’t make traits just for Damage you know..that old system is gone.

The damage it provides is far higher in PvP than it was in PvE. And in PvE it’s already 10%. The condition bombs, or Power Spikes are a huge deal.

Quick Draw provides the most valuable form of damage – burst. And if you feel like it – you can sacrifice it for better anything I already said.

The thing stays the same. A trait that tells you “Yep, you are about to die, so have an extra 2% damage every second that stops at 16%” is not even close to being considerable with Quick Draw on the table. Especially when the 1st thing that comes into your mind when below 50% is to get back up.

Look at Enlargement. If you get below 50% your damage goes up 25%, you gain 50% speed to help you get the hell out of there and so goes your 5 stability.
You don’t even need to spend an extra second below 50% to gain better benefits than a Grandmaster trait.

It’s not about “player choice”. This is about numbers, maths, potential and value. And MDG doesn’t have any of that.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

He asked what pets everyone would be using, not what pets do the most damage, but I almost always use birds over cats because they just hit more often in WvW/PvP and the Hawk/Eagle F2 does the most damage over time. I just got addicted to Hawk with Intimidation Training.

Yep, thanks for clarification.

I got mislead by the headline.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

Tragic Positive.9356:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

…

its not a bad trait just fits a different foot.

The whole problem is that it doesn’t even compare to Quick Draw. That trait is much better even at 50% HP, but gives full benefit even at full HP.

Power builds, evade builds, utility longbow builds, CC builds, condition bombing builds… That everything falls into category of Quick Draw with immense use and potential.

How can 3 blasts even compete with this? The trait has its uses… But no one’s ever going to sacrifice Quick Draw for it. That’s a bread and butter decision.

isnt that what i just said fits a different foot, its a choice but not mandatory just like Quick draw only improves Flexability which allows you access to different combos ect.

the extra incomming damage from traits is why its called MDG , if all MDG did was 50%< gain might , it wouldnt feel dangerous and since that is shared with pet and the ranger it scales up with expertise training and other things the pet also does taking your pet from 300 condi damage to 1000 condi damage with in 8secs while being effected by FB, both sources of bleeds are then vastly more powerful for those 8secs.

not sure how much of a Dps it’ll give the ranger as a class overall while under 50% but i think the trade off is worth it when you consider it in a Beastmaster / condi bunker sense.

its not a problem to take some extra damage if your build for toughness or high Vit levels , which you seem to be worring about , its not a trait for Glass builds which means its flexible for those other play styles other than Power specs which Benift more from quickdraw , its perfectly Equal .

We as a class are not a point holder class. We are bunkers (good at defending a point by skirmishing, not by holding it contested via sustain and immortality – that’s a clear Guardian pattern) which means winning duels.
We might become point holders that sustain with Quick Draw – which again lures me into conclusion that 4 leaps instead of 2 (greatsword Swoop) will be the answer for tanky builds as well. Moreover – if you focus on tank stats – your job is to soak up damage and not to deal it. Which means that more evades = more damage mitigation = Quick Draw for tanky builds.

For balanced (celestial), dire, Cleric, Carrion etc. where you’d like to win by dueling – you might want that extra damage. At all times, not only below 50%. And even below 50% you can get more sustain through Blast/Leap (which is helpful), evades = sustain, CC, or damage depending on the situation.
Even if outnumbered you could easily escape by swoop > block > swoop, or swap the weapon, double rapid fire the target into his face and laugh the 8 stacks of might off.

Most Dangerous Game doesn’t make sense. In WvW there’s no place for MDG. Quick Draw all the way. In PvE? The same. PvP? Your job is to stay alive and hold points – dealing damage while being at it. Quick Draw all the way.

Yes, even Beast Mastery would like quick draw over MDG.

I’m actually thinking that Spirits are going to be pretty interesting. If traited they could pretty likely provide 33% uptime of Stability, Fury, Resistance, Aegis, Protection…

They haven’t said a word about which boons are we going to get but I believe it’s going to be similar to this.

And don’t forget that while our Condi builds got buffed… It got buffed by another 33% (Quick Draw). That trait is a powerful one.
We might be buffed beyond imagining, but there’s just no way to test it yet. Every single buff/nerf/tweak/change is only on paper so far.
And we haven’t even thought of every combination or synergy with sigils, traits or what not.

There’s still way more to explore.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Hawk/Owl.

I have seen this being mentioned several times.
Has this been tested? I had my Cats dealing more damage than Birds. Birds have the same stats but their cast animations are noticeable longer.

Has something changed that I wasn’t aware of?

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

…

its not a bad trait just fits a different foot.

The whole problem is that it doesn’t even compare to Quick Draw. That trait is much better even at 50% HP, but gives full benefit even at full HP.

Power builds, evade builds, utility longbow builds, CC builds, condition bombing builds… That everything falls into category of Quick Draw with immense use and potential.

How can 3 blasts even compete with this? The trait has its uses… But no one’s ever going to sacrifice Quick Draw for it. That’s a bread and butter decision.

Quarktastic.1027:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Elorna.5329:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Yup, Frost Spotter S/A-LB with Hawk and GFTE/Wilting Strike is massive.

Why bother with the blindness trait in a PvE build when you’re giving up on the new and improved Companion’s Might to do so? Something a guardian, thief or even ele can do just as well or better without messing with their build? Hell why even consider taking birds at all, cats will always be better against stationary targets, or drakes for bigger trash mobs?

Blind = Damage mitigation. Can you please show me any other class skill that can put up kitten AoE blind every 4.75s? I can’t find one. The 4.75s recharge on the Hawk F2 is the reason for taking it, that and it does the most DPS of all pets due to that low recharge. Remember too that you not only get Blind, but Weakness if the blind is used up immediately. It is a lot of damage mitigation, one of the main reasons Guards are brought along.

To answer your question:

Sword/Pistol Thief. Perma-blind for days.

This is definitely true. But makes me think… It sacrifices a lot of DPS. Maybe if we ran the numbers we might see that ranger by maintaining the rotation would apply lots of Weakness and Blindness – while thieves have to hinder their DPS in order to do so without the weakness.

Plus keep in mind, Rangers now keep the vulnerability spikes. Starting with 23, continuing with 23 after the 1st rotation swap (the pet applies some too). And we have more DPS than a guard. And can provide stack with a reflect.

Plus we now provide the bonus to swiftness and fury. In 50% uptime. I don’t know… In my opinion it looks competitive. If you ask me – running birds and Clarion Bond with out-of-combat Warhorn blasts might as well give the party close to perma swiftness. A lot of testing is ahead.

Anet probably thinks of picking both Enlargement and MDG.
… Sadly, You’ll hit like a cornered animal with Quick Draw for higher numbers, more often and without risking anything.

They really need to reconsider their Grandmaster Trait that is not even close to as powerful as Empowerment (Guardian Staff 12 AoE might skill that heals).

I’m still thinking why this trait has no synergy with anything at all. Nothing. Except for sharing boons to the pet that I feel like being baseline but that’s another topic.

Heck, I can even imagine it being like this:
“When you fall to or below 50% hp, you gain 5 might for 5 seconds, clear 2 conditions and gain 150 toughness. This effect has a 5 second cooldown.”
Would you consider this over Quick Draw? I know I would.