Guild Wars 2

Zero Day.2594:

Travlane.5948:

salty. if you think regen is better than init traits/skills than you really should think a lil harder. even if you had 1.5 init per second its not as useful as having initiative gain skills/traits bc u need them on command to finish enemies or escape or to go stealthed. having initiative on command is a NECCESSITY for thief. not a luxury.

Isn’t that one of their reasons for nerfing, the fact that it’s a “necessity” to be using skills/traits that give init. You know if they nerf them so much that it’s relatively useless to take those skills/traits… then we don’t have to, and that promotes build diversity! So, if any of our skills/trait’s become another necessity, that’s when they become targets for a nerf (buffing/fixing other skills/traits? lol good one)…

u missed the point. its a neccesity bc we need to have a FAST gain. not a fast regen. for emergencies and finishing. low hp low armor no block no invuln no protection no aegis …. its a neccessity. this init nerf is making it worse. its taking the control from the players and making it passive not to mention for an overall loss.

i think its only the FIRST TIME….. which sucks in my opinion. if i use Shadow refuge when im at 25% hp…i get 2 init. i then use hide in shadows and up im up to 90%. i expect another 2 init. otherwise the skill isnt worth taking. blind on stealth and removing conditions on stealth. what a JOKE.

salty. if you think regen is better than init traits/skills than you really should think a lil harder. even if you had 1.5 init per second its not as useful as having initiative gain skills/traits bc u need them on command to finish enemies or escape or to go stealthed. having initiative on command is a NECCESSITY for thief. not a luxury.

swinsk.6410:

After having some time to process all this information and responses it seems that anet is trying to dumb down the thief. Nerfing skills that are activated and putting power into passive stuff. Destroying sword/X. Nerfing general evasion/stealth tactics. Buffing completely useless traits to justify it. Completely limiting build diversity into only 1 viable build now for tpvp and in wvw. D/P will be the only usable weaponset, even after infusion nerf because d/d offers no defensive capabilities at all and doesn’t have any DPS advantage over D/P.

I feel like arenanet is trying to fix something that isn’t broken and in the process they are going to break the thief on dec 10.

been saying this since gw2 launched. they are dumbing it down so theres no good players. just good skills and classes. they want to make it so an 8 year old can play at the same lvl as a 25 year old. and that is all related to the interest of revenue. problem is that the ones that actually spend money on the game are ones that go for legendaries…titles….skins. and those are usually the higher tier players which hate these junk nerfs.

they are taking the skill out of the thieves players hands and now its going to be so passive that its attack attack and wait for long period of time.

alladin is right on one point quite well. thief is a reactive class. which means we should have initiative on demand. the init boosts should be more at will with a gnerally low regen rate like .75/sec.

sounds silly right? well think of it this way…… lets take away all init burst gains from all skills and all traits and put the regen at 1.25 per second or even 1.5 to be generous. that would extremely outweigh all skills/traits for init boost in a period of time.

how does this affect battle. lets see. Black powder shot to Heartseeker to backstab to heartseeker. now the enemy has about 25-30% hp left and you have 0 init. if you had init gain skill/traits you could have 6-7 initiative back right on the spot. however, downgrading like they are doing…if u have 1.5 regen per sec then you would only have 1.5 initiative in that same time when you are out of init. its much better to have the init gain in skills/traits bc we can choose when we need it. by upping regen and downing burst init gains it means we will have a very hard time staying active and finishing opponents and making attacks much more risky!

“I” believe this is a pretty big nerf. they are taking away the control from the thief and making it a standard regen. horrible idea. Then again anet seems to dumb down everything. just compare gw1 to gw2. its made for …the more inexperienced and simple of players. no real build diversity.

d/p is the safest too play. its not hard really. the only hard part is to make sure you are not overly aggressive. be patient.

p/d is very easy to play too. however, it is very hard to play super efficiently bc it is kinda gimmicky and str8 forward. so to play it well you have to be good and also use wierd builds most dont use.

d/d and s/d are the hardest to play bc they have no real safety net. they are low hp low stealth no blind builds. its pure skill and player decisions that keep you alive here.

p/p not much to talk about here. move on :/ (bad set but best for PVE zerg farming)

s/p very bad too but usable in pve. easy to play also extremely hard to play on a competitive level.

SB use to be the most balanced weapon until cluster and trick shot nerf. still slightly sub par but usable in wvw and for PVE bosses. easy to play.

evilapprentice.6379:

Travlane.5948:

Snip

Yes, I’m sure most X/D specs are using stealth 16 times per minute (the only way to get +32 initiative out of it).

It’s also good practice to use your signets ASAP so you can get the most initiative out of them, rather than when you actually need them for the active ability. Same with steal – hit it the second you can, because the initiative gain is much more important. than using it tactically.

What you’ve done is compare max possible initiative regen pre and post Dec 10th, with absolutely no regard to spec or effectiveness of playstyle. Playing in a manner that would net you 120 init per minute would be a joke – you’d be hammering skills the second they were up, regardless of whether or not they were useful, just to generate initiative, and running a pretty awful spec (again, just for max init regen). You’ve also chosen to clock Infusion of Shadow at a whopping +32 init, when 3 of the 4 specs you listed above couldn’t possibly stealth that much in 60 seconds in any realistic situation (1 can’t stealth via weapon skills At all!)

Your entire synopsis is skewed, and the conclusion you drew from it incorrect and pointless. Please don’t spread misinformation, thieves have enough problems as it is.

read my response to the other gentlemens comments. kinda answers yours too. i compared what is TAKEN with what is GIVEN to us by anet. jon peters said it was a buff and that other skills/traits were a “small change” so i wanted to point out quite the contrary. even with a 25 30 0 0 15 or 0 30 20 20 0 build…. both would be getting less initative per minute by alot. doesnt have to be a full init burst build like was posted in original post. it was just showing you the gains vs losses in contrast to what anet said. its a pretty big nerf. having the burst init gain on hand/command is nice. look at it like i told him. nerf ALL skills that boost init. then just balance it by giving a 1.25 or even to be generous a 1.5 init per sec regen buff. you are telling me thats comparable to having the burst capability of initiative? when you cloack and dagger once then backstab then HS HS you are out of INIT ….. whats the next thing you do….usually steal or invis right? utility or w.e. which gains you 5 init plus 1 for the chanel time. a total of 6 init instantly. now….in the suggested buff i said… u would only get 1.5 over that same time. which leaves you VERY vulnerable. to b honest…id rather go down to .5 init per second and gain +1 initi on every init skill. but that would be OP right? of course….so its the exact opposite of OP which is underpowered going in the other direction. hence this willbe a huge nerf …other than to PD.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t totally agree with the Dec 10 init change because I believe that it should scale based on how much init are missing, but I believe it’s a step in the right direction. And if Anet wants the init regen to be flat, then it should be around 1.25 init/s

that is somethign i have NOT thought about. i like that. under 4 init it should be 1.5 per sec. above 8 init it should be .75 per sec. at over 12 its .5 and under 2 its 2 per sec or somethign. thats not a bad idea! have you put it in the suggestions area?

Warkupo.1025:

If you’re only looking at it from a “the maximum amount of available initiative is reduced” perspective, then yes, you would most likely perceive it as a nerf. Fact of the matter is that most thieves are not currently using a build maximized around initiative because we do not need that much initiative and building that way would leave you very weak in other areas.

I tend to think of it as a rebalancing; we’ll probably still need to take initiative traits, but we aren’t as dependent upon them either for reaching a “comfortable” amount of initiative.

i hear you. but they nerfed ALL the init gain traits/skills other than RFI….. so i was comparing the gains vs the nerfs to show that its a nerf. plain and simple. has nothign to do with build or maximum this or that. just the fact of what they are taking vs what they are giving. common burst build is 25 30 0 0 15. thats 3 init for klepto and HUGE hit on opportunist. klepto alone is a break even if u think about it. its only 1 less and you get 2.25 extra regen over 10 secs. but having init burst gain on command is what theives want. we get it quick we burn it quick. extra regen is nice. but id rather have .5 regen and 4 init on steal and 3 init on signets. u know what i mean? we will have to risk to gain. put it this way. get rid of ALL the initative gain skills and put the regen at 1.5 init per 1 second. thats about even considering the nerfs now coming. 1.5 init per second with no init boosts would almost kill the class. we wouldtn have burst. or a 2nd weaponset and we also would have to go slow using skills. bc when we are out. we have no safety net. know what i mean? dont take what i was showing you above literally. just as a “taken” and “given” comparison. even tho the def said it was a “buff” and “small change” on skills. so i wanted to point out it was quite the contrary u know?

ummm its funny…u can tell the good thieves from bad thieves. even now the best thieves in the game CAN and ARE beaten by every other class. no class is considered a 90%’er in the sense that they win over 90% of all duels regardless of class. id say right now warrior and guardian are the best. the skill level for them are pretty low. everything is laid out before they battle and know what they are going to do in what order almost regardless of enemy decisions.

most people thing anet is stupid. well that may be true. most people think they have no idea what is going on in the thief world. that part isnt really true. even tho i only play guardian prolly 5% of my on game time..i still know whats going on in the class and have and pretty good idea what most play just by playing against them. if u dont know your enemy then you dontknow how to react. “I” believe anet is just trashing thief so their favorites can rise up to be the “best”. its pretty blatant with these nerfs. the initiative nerf is pretty huge. the regen buff is well short of even becming even. thieves are doomed to die. they ahve nerfed us EVERY single patch. NOT EVEN ONE PATCH has come by wihtout a nerf….and the true die hard thieve players are hanging on by a thread. 900 range nerf on cluster bomb? pfft . so obvious. the one thing that kinda made us useful in wvw. gone. anyway keep your heads up guys…. they will fix it when the next big game comes out

Jumper.9482:

+1 for keeping Active Initiative gain.

what do you mean by this?

Brett.4305:

A few days ago, I removed any weaps and traits that are set to be
“balanced.” A few hours ago, I double checked my traits and can
guarantee that I won’t be dancing to their fife.
Players gravitate to certain builds on certain classes when everything else sucks.
ANET, in their wisdom, breaks the things that work to stop popular usage.
Then everyone will find something else that doesn’t suck AS BAD.
Then those builds get nerfed …

this is basically what happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiXhgsfoL6c

when i see things like this it makes me mad. no i dont want a warrior nerf. even as they are now….OP and all. i just want no nerfs. undo all nerfs and make all classes better with buffs. should never nerf. rarely ever anyway.

a warrior can do that in the video an a thief would have died in EVERY instance. so a thief is slippery! BIG DEAL! 1 v 1 assassination is what a thief is. IR nerf? why bc they are hard to hit? BS

Dee Jay.2460:

All this number-crunching about Initiative regeneration is worthless.

You have to play-test it to really evaluate the difference.

And then there’s things you can’t predict. Like how much more we’ll be able to use stuff like Infiltrator’s Arrow and other Shortbow skills.

And then there’s the fact that most maths is based on the idea that we are attacking a target constantly, which is almost never the case, not even in PvE.

I think this patch, while it’s going to nerf a few builds like Dagger/Pistol, is going to be an overall buff for Thieves. I just don’t think it’s a good buff because it’s not making the class more engaging to play. Instead it’s making the entire Initiative system much more forgiving.

u will be able to use it less. its a nerf. :P period. no matter how you look at it. the ONLY build that gets buffed is p/d and arguable d/d bleed.

the nerf on klepto and quick recovery already counterbalance our regen buff , that is if yhou are playing a build that uses them. opportunist nerf alone sets the total init into the negative. either way its no bueno amigo.

if u look at it like “well im gangsta and i dont use any of those init gains” then ur not a smart player in a burst build OR stubborn but ill play…..

2.25 init per 10 secs extra is the regen buff we are getting. aka 1ini per 1 sec from .75/sec. costs 6 init for IA . you get a total of 13.5 extra init over 1 min which means you get 2 extra IA in 1 minute. not bad. should have kept at 1 per 1 sec from beta test i think but thats me.

i think p/d players like me (bc its the best overall build if spec’d n played right) will enjoy the change. but i do like playing dagger main and sometims sword main as i spent the time to get the legendaries for every thief weap. this is just going to keep the thief headed into a pidgeonhole build playstyle. the IR nerf is the worst. and opportunist is the 2nd worst. idk what anet is thinkin. maybe they are slowly getting rid of thief.

evilapprentice.6379:

This entire assertion is…extremely wrong…in a bunch of places.

First of all, your base comparison is using a 0/20/10/20/5 spec (with 15 leftover points), with every optional initiative gain trait slotted. It’s an awful spec that would never work. Your conclusion is based on the same spec, and is thus completely wrong.

Secondly, your post Dec 10th Opportunist math looks off (you should realistically be getting 10-12 init per minute)

Then there’s just a bunch of other “math” that you just sloppily assert without giving us any idea how you got to your end numbers.

It also relies on using abilities like steal and signets the second its up regardless of situation, which is unrealistic to put it mildly.

This post is probably better left ignored until you clean up pretty much everything in it, otherwise you’re going to be spreading blatant misinformation.

perhaps i should have explained how i got my numbers. but the math and all is spot on. i play thief. daudle a lil on a few others but 95% of my time is thief. 3 legendaries all the titles blah blah blah…and one of the best duelers on my server. (not bragging just pointing out im not a new player).

8 init under opportunist is quite realistic for post dec 10th. idk what YOU are thinking but, but let me take a guess. to get 10-12 init per minute under that you would literally have to be attacking at EVERY 5 sec mark AND hit it on the dot without missing. most thieves… if they are good dip in dip out while fighting. seriously :P they dont just attack the whole time. thats why i said 8 init. maybe 9 but hard to say. def not 10-12. thats just being perfect. i put the other skills like signets on to use everytime they pop. and then average it as a per 60 second ratio. the only guess work in here is the init on stealth and the init on crit. you arent in battle every moment and ur not using invis 5x a second. i was conservative on the first init on stealth to be fair and realistic by trying to exclude the 5 2 2 2 combo as that is just irrelevant. doesnt change dmg taken or given and is an abuse of mechanic. i did try add in the times where you CND and then use hide in shadows and get another 2 etc but nothing abusive. its quite a conservative number, both the infusion and opportunist. so realistically its a MUCH larger gap.

if you like we can go pick a popular yishis or jumper video so we cant say its biased by using one of my own…then count.

People like you assume waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much brah. lol. seriously its not a good build. its just throwing a bunch of traits out there that are changed and comparing it to what is going to happen. if you take a REAL build youwont have all these extra init boosters and THEN what happens is the gap is probably another 33% larger which means its an EVEN BIGGER NERF. 2.25 init on 10 secs is the buff. -1 on steal -1 on quick recovery right there make it even. infusion of shadow and opportunist set it INCREDIBLY into the negative. just looking at it from a non experimental perspective. .75 init per sec to 1.0 init per sec is a 2.25 gain of init on 10 secs which is knocked down to a .25 gain from the loss of quick recovery and kleptomaniac.

I obviously didnt make this post for you. Its for people whom play thieves as a die hard and know thief inside and out. Nobody can say it accurately but i bet its pretty kitten ed close. if not no point in having you nag just put a bet out there ill go grab a video and show you. go look or better yet play a thief. they dont attack every second. to be honest its actually more time NOT attacking than attacking…considerably. a good thief is patient, calculating, precise, vicious and not too proud to know when to draw back.

peace out cubscout

Also to point out….the best part about the way it is now (pre dec 10th) is that you have the initiative on command. you dont have to wait for it. and if u do wait for it and dont use it/fail then you are left with less init anyway which makes it more risky and beneficial to enemies.

QUESTION for ANET/PLAYERS:

S/P or S/D or D/D D/P build …..analyze init regen buff vs init gain nerf on the dec 10th patch. will it equate the same? better? worse? im going to guess worse …. as im writing this i have no idea how this will come out so… here goes.

Heal/Utilities/Elites

Withdraw – Healing —-————- 15s CD
Infiltrators Signet – Tele 900 range CD + 2 init —-——-24s CD
Signet of Agility- Remove 1 condi per ally & Renew energy 2 init————-24s CD
Shadowstep – Tele 1200 range Tele back -3 condis —————— 50s CD
Basilisk Venom- 1.5s Channel 1.5sec stone to target on hit —-————kitten CD

Traits init boost as of PRE DEC 10th:

+2 init per stealth (32 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per signet 20% cooldown reduction on signets (9 init per 60 secs)
+3 init per steal (roughly 6 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per crit per 1 sec (CD) (roughly 16 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per 10 secs (12 init per 60 secs)
+.75 init per second base regen (45 init per 60 secs)
TOTAL= 120 initiative gained per an average 60 sec fight

Traits init boost as of POST DEC 10th:

+2 init per stealth (20 init per 10 secs)
+1 init per signet 20% cooldown reduction on signets (4 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per steal (roughly 4 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per crit per 5 sec (CD) (roughly 8 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per 10 secs (6 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per sec base regen (60 init per 60 secs

TOTAL= 102 initiative gained per an average 60 sec fight

TOTAL DIFFERENCE = 18 init per 60 secs

THE CHANGES are basically -3 init per 10 seconds for thief POST dec 10th.
If we pretend that nobody is stacking stealth for extra init….then its only roughly about a difference of -1 init per 10 secs loss.

I fail to see how this is beneficial or at least even?

QUESTION for ANET/PLAYERS:

:)

S/P or S/D or D/D D/P build …..analyze init regen buff vs init gain nerf on the dec 10th patch. will it equate the same? better? worse? im going to guess worse …. as im writing this i have no idea how this will come out so… here goes.

Withdraw – Healing —-————- 15s CD
Infiltrators Signet – Tele 900 range CD + 2 init —-——-24s CD
Signet of Agility- Remove 1 condi per ally & Renew energy 2 init————-24s CD
Shadowstep – Tele 1200 range Tele back -3 condis --————— 50s CD
Basilisk Venom- 1.5s Channel 1.5sec stone to target on hit —-————kitten CD

Traits init boost as of PRE DEC 10th

+2 init per stealth (32 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per signet 20% cooldown reduction on signets (9 init per 60 secs)
+3 init per steal (roughly 6 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per crit per 1 sec (CD) (roughly 16 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per 10 secs (12 init per 60 secs)
+.75 init per second base regen (45 init per 60 secs)
TOTAL= 120 initiative gained per an average 60 sec fight

Traits init boost as of POST DEC 10th

+2 init per stealth (20 init per 10 secs)
+1 init per signet 20% cooldown reduction on signets (4 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per steal (roughly 4 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per crit per 5 sec (CD) (roughly 8 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per 10 secs (6 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per sec base regen (60 init per 60 secs
TOTAL= 102 initiative gained per an average 60 sec fight

TOTAL DIFFERENCE = 18 init per 60 secs

THE CHANGES are basically -3 init per 10 seconds for thief POST dec 10th.

If we pretend that nobody is stacking stealth for extra init….then its only roughly about a difference of -1 init per 10 secs loss.

I fail to see how this is beneficial or at least even?

SoLeciTO.3490:

Dagraan.2854:

SoLeciTO.3490:

Dagraan.2854:

so the vid of a thief harrassing a 30+ man zerg while killing and stomping people in the middle of the zerg and getting away easily is missing here, the video of a thief running around in the enemys spawn killing the merchants so they no longer work isn’t here.

the video of a thief perma stealthing mesmers in a keep or garri isn’t here.
the video of a naked thief killing people isn’t here.
the video of a thief spamming 2 and winning isn’t here.
the video of a thief not even trying in a 5v1 isn’t here.

the video of a necro tanking 4 people and 20 seconds of immobilize with just plague and death shroud isn’t here.

please tell me how a hammer warrior in pvt is OP? when you can easily counter him with stability.
or better yet, pistol 5 and stand there pressing 1 insta win against hammer warriors.

The difference is that in those videos the thief is a really good player no clicking skills and timing perfectly with no mistakes against low lvl bad players.

Show me a video with a thief killing good players 3v1 and i will give you the reason.

Show me a video with a thief clicking skills killing 3v1 and i will give you the reason.

Show me a video of a thief in a middle of a big zerg spamming CC and AOE damage without dying in 3 seconds and i will give you the reason.

have you ever tried the tanky condition thief build? you know thieves do have tanky builds, but they still have stealth and everything to get away un harmed while having way to many evades, a lot of aoe bleeds and cripples, and not to mention an elite that hits everything on a 90 second CD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z-d9vGO52E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRcTKt47ixk

the second one the guy has alot of videos of thief gameplay just harrassing zergs and getting away.

show me the video of the hammer warrior beating a thief in a 1v1 fight. d/p or not.
if you do manage to show me one then i’ll show you a bad thief.

what the heck are you talking about????!!!

The first video is against really bad players . . . that bad that they don’t even know how to step out of a caltrop area!! . . . he never in the entire video is in the middle of a big zerg AOE damaging and CC AOE all with no dying.

The second video is one of the best thief in the game killing bad players teaching us just the mechanics.

NONE of this videos has a thief in the middle of a zerg AOE damaging and CC the enemies having fun like nothing is happening.

Give me a break man if you are going to argue be real.

doesnt matter what you think of the opponents. u put a thief in ANY of those positions. DEAD…..downed dead….downed….DEAD. EVERY EVERY SINGLE TIME!

so yes….the OP point is quite relevant and accurate. i will say thieves ARE good at 1 v 1 but not above and beyond they wont be beat on a decent %….but then again 1 v 1 has no real spot in this game of “GUILD” wars …. heh get it? “GUILD”…see what i did there? guild …..usually alot of people…guild heh.

@KAON true. but then personal bias comes in. fine line to walk but i do agree

evilapprentice.6379:

Why would it?

S/P is a direct damage weaponset, there isn’t a single ability in it that can stand to gain from taking condition damage. Why add 5 bleed stacks (at lets say 5 seconds), that do roughly 1k damage over 5 seconds (since you’re going to be focusing on power/crit/crit damage)?

i agree with what you are INTENDING but i would like to note there is no such thing as condition or direct dmg set. each set SHOULD be able to be used as either. sword is the only weapon that really cant be used as condi even tho every other weapon in game kinda can do both. just a mistake on anets part creating sword. i think tactical strike should put on torment and cripple or something and also some condi on PW>

i run this in my p/d build. i love it wher it is. p/p zerker with ricochet in power line would be pretty strong.

Volrath.1473:

Travlane.5948:

Thieves dont have a 2nd weaponset to go to. 1 ini per 1 sec should have been on launch in my opinion.

actually it was 1 init per second in beta and if I’m not mistaking at launch as well, it was nerfed to 0,75 later.

no kidding. i didnt know that. they should have kept it then. our lack of a 2nd weaponset to use for attacks hurts. but we pay that price to use same skills more than once.

kleptomaniac and quick recovery shouldnt be touched. putting these 2 lower is just not worth it. kleptomaniac is 3 init per 35 seconds. quick recovery is 2 init per 10 seconds. making these any less is just not even worth having. id rather have a 2 sec immob than 2 init on steal as it works for both condi and burst.

Infiltrators return….this is killing a playstyle. thieves cannot last more than 2 seconds in a 6v6 or larger fight as is….now they cant play s/d or s/p bc of this nerf. theres no escape. i mean sure SS once every minute…but that means you can fight once for a few seconds every minute without annihilation in larger fights. thieves dont have blocks protection invulnerability aegis heavy armor high toughness or high HP….. IR should have 0 cast time and break stuns. id rather see it cost 1 more init than this nonsense. btw nobody really uses IR to stomp…ive NEVER seen it even once. SS stomp? sure….but whats the problem its about a minute CD.

Thieves dont have a 2nd weaponset to go to. 1 ini per 1 sec should have been on launch in my opinion. sure we can spam 3 of the same skill in a row. but then we are done for 15 seconds to do it agian. other classes go 2 3 4 5 swap 2 3 4 5 swap 2 3 …then have a small break……. its not comparable at all!

Spanny.9256:

infiltrator’s return nerf is gonna be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. i can deal with permastealth being nerfed, heck i’m even a little for it. but giving THE CLASS THAT SPECIALIZES IN MOBILITY less mobility in a world full of cc is not cool people. if you’re gonna do that i honestly don’t know how i’m planning on playing my thief in pvp. you’re narrowing it to kite-tastic p/d condi builds imo.

yeah im already playing p/d in tpvp spvp and even wvw. the D/P trickery build is so agressive that it becomes overly vulnerable to so many builds. not very viable IMO.

Chaszyrr.6479:

eliminate IR cast time could be traitable in SA traitline. There are so many good traits in SA that it would still be a nerf to have to sacrifice one.
And Travlane, some of those traits are so OP. It sounds cool but you would have to dumb down the values.

yeah i know some are op. but i tried to focus the OP ones on the large combat areas so they dont affect 2 v 2 and 1 v 1 stuff. more like 5 v 5+ bc all the dmg we take is instant death. its just a few ways to keep us alive for a little longer. not forever just 5-10 secs in a 10 v 10. of course the numbers could be played with but the general idea is there. right now we cant get into large fights bc of that.

you hit the nail on the head my friend. Anet is running a skeleton crew on gw2. The big fail of gw2 is not only the fact of them paying attention and putting in follow up effort but in who they listen to. they listen to the QQers. the ones that suck at the game. and nerf nerf nerf thief even tho they have no spot in wvw tpvp or spvp or pve in a preferential group preselected due to usefulness. they pandered to everyone when they made this game. they wanted old people and young….women AND men….all classes to play this game. thats why they dumbed it down…got rid of the skills like gw1 had and just kinda made them concrete with a few utilities. gw1 was too much to handle for a casual player making a build. they dumbed this game down so much its rediculous. and this is also how they are dealing with nerfs/balancing. they dont care about the die hards that still play. they want a wider player base. even if they just buy the game and play it for a couple months. thats a huge win. i think my next game will be somethign more advanced and panderers to real gamers rather than easy moders. they only QQ and cant figure out hotkeys or reactions / predictions…its lame. nothing against them …just ruins my kind of fun.

what do you guys think about traits like this? dont matter where you put them. feel free to change the cooldowns etc. just some very rough ideas. the focus of these ideas are to let us stay in combat for more than a 2 second burst. this will allow us to play tpvp and wvw better.

1v1 Trait ideas

Circus tumbling:
Dodge rolls that evade attacks 25% chance knock down attacker for 1s (3s ICD)

Minds Eye Blind:
When recieving 33% of HP in 1 hit gain invulnerabilty for 3 seconds (20s ICD)

Fools Gold:
When you run out of initiative gain 6 initiative. lose all endurance and -50% endurance regeneration 5seconds. (45s ICD)

20v20 Trait ideas

Flashing Daggers:
While actively attacking you have a 75% chance to block range and 15% chance to block melee attacks.

Berserkers Boast:
Every Critical heals you for 100 healing +20 more per target hit. I.E. 5 targets would be 200 healing each for a total of 1000 health gained. If 5 targets are hit then nearby allies gain the same healing.

Party Trick:
Every time you are damaged while stealthed you have a 33% chance to gain 450 healing and +2 seconds of swiftness.

Whispers Wager:
Any time you activate an elite your next attack if successful heals you for 3000 health and deals 1500 damage, if it misses you gain 4 random conditions for 6 seconds.

Shadow Contract:
If you lose your health in less than 3 seconds, you gain swiftness for 10 seconds and your life total may not deplete lower than 1 HP for 10 seconds. (45s ICD)

Now all of these in the 20v20 section are made so they really dont do much in 1v1 or 2v2 etc etc but really help out the group or the thief really get into combat for a lil bit and dig in. tell me what you think. not saying i have the best ideas or want all of these. just some new ideas to get out there. just wanna see the thief be able to use SD SP DD DP in wvw/tpvp without having to roam, even if its just for small stints.

Without having Protection, Aegis, Invulnerability, high HP, High armor, high toughness, blocks etc etc….. i think thieves kind of deserve somethign to make them viable in those situations.

Why is this posted here? bc it seems to me that devs think initiative is a problem which is def not a very needed change. They dont realize we have to do nothign in zergs bc we die in 2 secs….and in tpvp we have to find 1 v 1 areas and cant cap bc of invis…. … pve is just bleh! Hope you guys enjoyed the ideas.

abusing doesnt mean game changing. seriously :P its annoying that sombody can hide for a long time. but does NOTHING…literally. nothign.

i already explained to sanduskel that perma stealth gives 4 very MAJOR ADVANTAGES to opponents. inarguable.

Erzian.5218:

Travlane.5948:

chaining 52 52 52

You are doing it wrong.

srry. was tired 5 2 2 2

and 200 is only relative to the amount of buffs

now here i am totally guessing but i THINK the buff/nerf ratio:

Thief : for ever 1 buff they get 25 nerfs
Others : for ever 1 buff they get 2-3 nerfs (and thats being generous)

Now i know in the beginning that some of the other classes were ….weaker so its relative to that understanding but still….not THAT much diff.

i dont use perma stealth bc its kinda silly. i dont like having to use BPS for invis…kinda risky against a GOOD player lol.

i dont overdramatize anything. there is no instance in anywhere in this game other than scouting…..where i would say ok…id like to take a thief on this team. 5v5 10v10 20v20 50v50 100v100 ….none. not in spvp….tpvp…PVE or WVW. just scouting and making some camp capping. anything a thief does other classes do better AND have more survivability without having to take a time out from fighting. just is what it is.

i dont mind getting rid of perma stealth….i welcome it. i think the init changes are a lil overexaggerated in the sense they are “even” trades for the init regen boost. the math is lopsided in a large overall loss. there is no denying that. but seriously if u would like to make an in game GOLD bet ill show you 200 nerfs. thats prolly around 500 to be real. theres like 15 this coming patch alone. plus all the hotfixes inbetween. 1 year of nerfs. easily 200.

perma stealth gives 4 VERY large gifts to the opponent. perma stealth actually HURTS the user. most are too simple to understand this!

IDK why anet doesnt see that thieves have no place in this game anymore. the only thing we can do decently…atleast til dec 10th… is ROAM! and roaming doesnt change much.

we have had 2 real buffs

FS/LS
STEAL

the other 200 changes were nerfs. 20 of which were super heavy nerfs. why do you continue to make the game worse aaaaaaaaand worse aaaaaaaaand worse? why not just buff other classes so the game is better…more options…better and stronger classes. i mean i know u have to tone down some things…but a big kitten nerf is just making classes weak. would be nice to have every class strong and leave it to the better PLAYER to win…not the better setup/mechanics/skills. anyway what do i know :P just a player since launch. i main a thief and finishing all my legendaries….1 left. bolt.

Selver.1307:

I couldn’t tell you how many bad people continue to pew pew me through DStorm. It’s 99% rangers, but I get the odd warrior and engi to do it too.

I MEAN THE WHOLE kitten CHANNEL (if they don’t down first).

true…some are dumb….

but i must say as experienced and good as i am at thief…. sometimes wheni target somebody with pistolmain hand… auto attack just starts going off!! i have no idea why. sometimes no … sometimes yes.

they only need to have the minions/spirits/clones spread out more. it would make sense.

they should write this into code:

“all summons/pets/minions/clones etc must stay atleast 350 range away from owner unless a skill/target makes them do otherwise”

what ya think?

tru tru….. but i hate the fact that eles can just wisp into towers everytime their down. i havent complained once online. ive mentioned it that other skills should dothe same….. but never once will i ask for a nerf. i just leave eles alone or draw them away. u wanna make a perma stealth theif uncomfortable just get him into tighter areas.

perma stealth is no advantage other than saving a few runs back in wvw. seriously not an issue. if u hate it ….thats bc ur not as intelligent or jealous. period. :P no logical/tactical reason to hate “perma”

Sanduskel.1850:

Zacchary.6183:

Most of the players aren’t complaining about the profession anymore. Thieves melt so easily in this meta that the only ones who use them are diehards.

I disagree. I hear and see them spew hatred for this class all the time.

people hate stealth. its a hard mechanic to fight against. but thieves suck at team play. anything larger than 4v4 is just suicide for thieves. too much incidental dmg and aoe dmg. so thieves are good at 1 v 1 :P. playing against stealth isnt hard…but alot of players arent good so….. Let me put it this way; I cannot remember the last time i was backstabbed. cant remember.

Perma stealth isnt bad. its actually good for the opponents. mad because it gives us a chance to get away? well it gives you the same chance because chaining 52 52 52 makes it impossible to keep up with a fleeing person. if you play against a 52 52 52 player just walk away there is no point…u can still win but not worth it bc they can reset. either way we deal 0 dmg in stealth and take plenty of dmg. perma stealth does nothing but help opponents. yup you heard it. it HELPS opponents.

what exactly does perma stealth do?

1) turns a 4 v 4 into a 4 v 3 (opponents advantage)
2) allows a free cap for your opponents (cant cap while invis)
3) allows opponent to leave and you to stay in a small spot to keep stealthed
4) allows opponent to deal dmg to you without being able to attack them in perma

Thats a pretty nice list for any opponent. You are welcome. From anet.

sword 2 is fine. everything is basically fine the way it is. p/p and s/p and perhaps dagger 4 need some rework.

Without wasting traits or talking gear. compare guardian (or any class) to thief.
The average thief attack is 4.25 initiative (sometimes more depending on build) which means 3 attacks and you are done until 15 seconds later INCLUDING if you switch weapons. Guardian has attacks 2 3 4 5 then weapon swap and 2 3 4 5 again. thats 8 attacks before a guardian has to stop and about 1-4 seconds before he can rinse and repeat most of them. so without either class having stats or gear…. the thief is at a pretty sever disadvantage having only really 1 set to use and less attacks overall in the same time frame. this is why thieves HAVE to bring init traits. if u were going to change anythign on opportunist i would only make the cooldown 2 seconds. anything more makes it obsolete.

As for return on IS/IR it was better off as a stun breaker too. thieves are SOOOOO fragile with s/d bc its a berserker ONLY build. most thieves have between 10.8k and 13k hp. thats 2 attacks from a warrior using hammer…. of which if u donthave shadow step ready u are dead.

thieves use carrion and berserker (sometimes with a touch of valk). this leaves 3 viable builds p/d d/p and s/d (arguable). not much to choose from

we have 5 utilities to choose from
we have 2 armor sets to choose from
we have 2 weaponsets to choose from (s/d is arguable IMO)
we have 3 – 4 traits in each line to choose from.

everything a thief has is pigeonholed.

Erzian.5218:

People are crying because a Skill, that renders the vast majority of cc skills useless and allows you to make up for 293824902380 mistakes at avoiding certain key skills, is getting fixed. Sorry guys but its time to step up your/our gameplay instead of whining.

Let’s be honest. I consider myself mediocre at best. In pvp encounters I dodge randomly (and so does the large proportion of gw2 players) most of the time and I can still win most 1v1 encounters in WvW/spvp as a s/p thief and I am pretty sure I can do so after the nerf, too.
If you consider yourself good, you should be able to do so easily and if you can’t play without a spamable stunbreak, then you are simply not good but getting carried by your class.

so a mistake is getting hit once by CC which = death? hrm…. if we werent so fragile id tend to agree with you. but since we are you are without a doubt…plain wrong.

Excalibur.9748:

Maugetarr.6823:

Excalibur.9748:

I signet: remove the stunbreak, have it remove cripple chill and immobilize while still shadowstepping you to the target. This would trade sustain for short term pressure.

Terrible idea. Stunbreak is better than cripple chill and immobilize.

Which is why the stunbreak should be moved to Signet of agility so you get the stunbreak and the possibility of dodging 2(3) more stuns. Similar in functionality to dolyak signet breaking stun then providing immunity to stuns for 8 seconds.

It’s really not the same at all. By shifting the stunbreak onto signet of agility, you’re forcing signet of agility/shadowstep on my bar while I want infil signet instead.

So, why not keep the stunbreak on infil signet, and then introduce stunbreak on SoA and SoS as well. Stunbreak > all.

In other words, you’re nerfing infil signet, and buffing SoA. Buffing both of them is better than nerfing the superior signet and buffing a worse one.

his point made great sense. your point is preference. thats the difference. i agree with both.

if they revert the init regeneration increase it would be losing 25%. “sounds” different than a 33% increase which is the same as a 25% decrease. hrm…… hrm….. a 33% increase sounds like a huge gain…..but a 25% decrease isnt as huge in the sense of change. just perspective.

What am i saying? i dont think this small increase is going to really affect anything other than maybe p/d. Any other build is going to be hurt by the other numerous init nerfs.

OK ILL KEEP SAYING THIS TO ANET :

My Constructive Criticism:

• When you make a game better make it better. Dont nerf classes, just buff others. (90% of changes should be buffs for balance not nerfs for balance) Stop dumbing the game down, its not going to help bad players be good. —-*-—

you could also revert it and say its a 25% decrease. all how you look at it :P

Deathspike.1870:

JonPeters.5630:

You can still avoid follow ups with this. 360 milliseconds is faster than almost any attack and certainly faster than almost all dangerous ones. The only loss here is using this while stunned and using it to teleport finish an opponent.

The moment a local computer received the attack state of the target, his state will be further in time on the server. Then we have to recognize the potential threatening animation, which is not obvious until at least a quarter into the animation, and hope to have enough time left to do the shadow return.

- A human reaction time is somewhere between ~150-300ms.
- An internet connection has somewhere between 50~100ms latency (from and to)
- An average LCD screen has a 5ms refresh rate delay.
- An average computer runs at 30 FPS; the next frame can delay by 33ms.
- An average keyboard has 11ms input delay.
- The Shadow Return skill has a 360ms activation delay.

That’s 150 + (2 * 50) + 5 + 33 + 11 + 360 = 659ms delay right there, not event counting the time it takes for an attacking animation to become recognizable and making a (quick) decision based on that animation. Are you saying that enemy attacks take longer than (659ms + timeToRecognizeAttack) and allow a window of effective use of the new Shadow Return? Personally I think it is already quite difficult to avoid the dangerous ones combining all the latencies. Granted I’m not an amazing player, but I suspect the use of the skill will become limited to the best of computer hardware, internet connections, and player skill, rather than being accessible to other players.

i did this myself but without screen/connection figured in. i did it as str8 up like everything was instant. still an obvious call. this is beyond Anets comprehension. they dont care they just wanted bad players to be competitive and that wont happen if they buff other classes…bc the players will still be bad right? so what they do is nerf nerf nerf…making it a dumbed down game. Nothing to do with us. thief is a hard class to play so we have a very different understanding of the game than most do.

Yggdrasil.7940:

JonPeters.5630:

Opportunist
This trait was wildly overpowered. I there was a 15 point minor for any other profession that basically read: "Reduce cooldown of all weapon skills by 33% [….]

Sorry but I really don’t understand ! Was the trait bugged somehow ?

Even at 100% crit, you would need 3.3 hits/sec to gain 1ini/sec.
Fastest thief attacks are multi-hit ones

• Unload = 8hits/2sec = 4hit/sec
• PW = 8 hits/2.75sec = 2.9hit/sec
  Then D/D:
• Dagger auto = 4hits/2sec = 2hits/sec.
  All others skills generate far less hit/sec (because of cast time/ini cost)

Are you nerfing this trait solely because of PW and Unload ?

I really cannot figure out how many hit/sec I’m throwing (no parser/no combat log export) but as I do not play S/P or P/P I can feel that I’m far from hitting once a second…….
I only have ~50% crit => 0.5*0.3 =0.15 = 15% chance to proc Opportunist (6.67 hits needed) With the fastest attack I can use => Dagger auto (2hit/sec => 1 ini every 3.3 sec => 1/3.3 => 0.30 ini/sec)
0.75 + 0.30 ini/sec = 1.05 ini/sec.

And the new ini regen is now 1ini/sec permanently.

I really don’t understand the theorycrafting behind this nerf, unless you want to tone down the trait because of the new regen (1ini/sec vs 0.75/sec) but in this case, the trait was not OP previously.

If my theorycrafting is shaky, feel free to enlighten me, I really love numbers ;-).

you made a really good point. wish i thought of breaking it down. then again inever saw this as a broken trait. very neccessary.

Animus.6453:

Travlane.5948:

Animus.6453:

Travlane.5948:

swinsk.6410:

I’d be fine with all these changes Mr. Peters as long as we got some significant changes.

For instance, Last Refuge is a terrible trait and everyone hates its. Why not replace last refuge with infusion of shadow? Infusion of shadow is a must have trait for anyone going into the shadow arts line and last refuge is not.

This would open up some build diversity.

Why not give venoms to all thieves as F2-F4 skills with the exception of basilisk venom? This would be a flat out buff to the class. Thief community might actually say, hey thanks for giving our class something new and useful instead of whine nerfs 24/7.

I’d like to see some of these changes be added into these huge nerfs. This is a huge nerf patch. No more perma stealth, no more s/d builds, opportunist nerf is going to effect every thief build as well.

swinks hit it right on the head. our steal alone is a joke compare to other classes. really it is. if traited its better but still not as good as f1 f2 f3 f4 other classes have especially when its an all or nothing…miss or hit.

agreed with the rest too!

You seem to forget that the initiative system is counted in our unique profession mechanics. It might be a more passive compared to other professions, but combined with Steal it’s definitely as good as other professions mechanics (virtues, attunement swaps etc). What other class can use weapon skills consecutively without CD?

I do think putting venoms as a prof mechanic is a really cool idea, but at the same time it’s just not needed.

actually thief averages about 4 init per skill. they start with 12 init. thats 3 attacks maybe 4 in a row…. ok?

now take any other class. they have 4 skills they use in a row (2-5) and then switch then 4 more skills in a row (2-5) and then 2 secs later switch back.

so thieves can spam 3-4 skill attacks in a row and any other class 8…..

you were saying?

and id honestly take any other F mechanics over steal anyday. i could do the math if u really like.

EDIT: you say its just not needed…i disagree….

right now you make a 10 v 10 battle you bring a thief….umm never. so a thief isnt needed :P

You’re right in saying a thief is generally not needed for a 10v10, but that’s more an issue with a lack of build diversity than anything else. Other than bursting people down, everything else we can do another class can do much better in a large group, yeah? Support? Guardian, ele. CC? Damage? Control? Warrior, Warrior and Warrior (and don’t forget warrior!). See where I’m going with this?

While I agree with you here, I don’t really think it’s relevant to the profession mechanic though. It’s a completely different issue.

You go too far with the skill use notion. You shouldn’t be spamming all of your skills as hard as you can on any profession (unless you like zerging in WvW then by all means do it). That just makes you an awful player. You should be using your skills wisely for each situation. My point is that no other class can use the same skill several times in a row or within very small amounts of time (like seemingly infinite CnD -> backstab rotations).

Combined with proper initiative management (rather than spamming the kitten out of your skills) from the player and I’d say initiative is pretty kitten good as a class mechanic. It gives the player much more choice and control over what they want to do in a fight.

I’m talking from a more WvW solo/small man roaming perspective than anything else. While your raw numbers might say ‘yeah other classes can spam harder than us’, it’s not really applicable in real instances. There’s a massive difference between skill spam and controlled, intelligent skill use.

I think if you were to change anything about the profession mechanic for thief, it’d be a small change. Something like making Steal a stun break or unblockable. Nothing major, but something still useful for every thief.

i understand what you are saying and agree w/ most of it however these nerfs are not looking at the large picture.

HERE ARE SOME FACTS TO KEEP PERSPECTIVE:

1- Thief cannot do anything another class cant do better in group play

2- Thief is nerfed worse and worse without fail every patch

3- Thief has no spot in TPVP SPVP or WVW (preferred)

4- Our burst is useless bc we cant sustain/avoid damage

5- Only thing we were good at is 1v1 roaming & now we arent bc of complainers.

6- Anet team doesnt make the game better by increasing other classes…they dumb it down to balance rather than buff. A fundamental flaw in game improvement designs."

• All of these facts are with the note that 1v1 does nothing in this game and has no relevant area so not worth discussing as for a reason to balance **

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

Breaking the profession? sorry maybe im not playing the same game….thieves are not even in the top 2 best at 1v1 characters anymore…i mean its arguable but in the sense that its arguable and not definitive its not a broken class. even right now as it is…thief isnt above and beyond any other character…better than ranger ill say it…. but seriously?

2ndly….. you keep making the thief worse. no buffs. none. i mean steal and FS were nice but FS is keep gettin gnerfed and steal is only f1 vs other classes f1f2f3f4. you say you want to balance thief and blah blah blah…but you dont touch why the thief isnt balanced in the first place…. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO………

would you please tell us why thief is being nerfed in the first place ( not to mention every patch ever patched :P)….is he too good at WVW group play? is he too good at PVE? is he too good at 4 v 4s(aka small skirmishes) ? is he too good at spvp/tpvp?

bottom line is you can say that thief gets too many attacks vs other characters (although not true but just for instance) and forget the big picture is that its not helping them. thieves are OP…they arent even a top 3 class. i mean if u talk about 1 v 1 perhaps a top 3 or even likely 2nd/3rd ARGUABLY but 1v1 has no place in this game. if you travel alone you run the risk of being ganked. its a community style game.

thief has lost its basics….the game has lost its basics. Perhaps its time to get back to the basics and remember what drew people to this game in the first place. it def wasnt dumbed down skills and playstyles.

(you think they made battlefield 4 less complicated and easier than call of duty? NO they made it hella better and more options…not dumbing it down. wtf is wrong with you guys?)

Animus.6453:

Travlane.5948:

swinsk.6410:

I’d be fine with all these changes Mr. Peters as long as we got some significant changes.

For instance, Last Refuge is a terrible trait and everyone hates its. Why not replace last refuge with infusion of shadow? Infusion of shadow is a must have trait for anyone going into the shadow arts line and last refuge is not.

This would open up some build diversity.

Why not give venoms to all thieves as F2-F4 skills with the exception of basilisk venom? This would be a flat out buff to the class. Thief community might actually say, hey thanks for giving our class something new and useful instead of whine nerfs 24/7.

I’d like to see some of these changes be added into these huge nerfs. This is a huge nerf patch. No more perma stealth, no more s/d builds, opportunist nerf is going to effect every thief build as well.

swinks hit it right on the head. our steal alone is a joke compare to other classes. really it is. if traited its better but still not as good as f1 f2 f3 f4 other classes have especially when its an all or nothing…miss or hit.

agreed with the rest too!

You seem to forget that the initiative system is counted in our unique profession mechanics. It might be a more passive compared to other professions, but combined with Steal it’s definitely as good as other professions mechanics (virtues, attunement swaps etc). What other class can use weapon skills consecutively without CD?

I do think putting venoms as a prof mechanic is a really cool idea, but at the same time it’s just not needed.

actually thief averages about 4 init per skill. they start with 12 init. thats 3 attacks maybe 4 in a row…. ok?

now take any other class. they have 4 skills they use in a row (2-5) and then switch then 4 more skills in a row (2-5) and then 2 secs later switch back.

so thieves can spam 3-4 skill attacks in a row and any other class 8…..

you were saying?

and id honestly take any other F mechanics over steal anyday. i could do the math if u really like.

EDIT: you say its just not needed…i disagree….

right now you make a 10 v 10 battle you bring a thief….umm never. so a thief isnt needed :P

Anyone think opportunist should be 2 sec max. even 1 sec is kinda fine….. i mean you need 3 hits every sec just to gain +1 per sec. so only way you get one per 1 sec is DB hitting everytime spamming it. its really not that OP. and the -1 init on signet use? who would ever take that trait? i mean why not just get rid of it.

what is s/p ?

Message Body length must at least be 15.

swinsk.6410:

I’d be fine with all these changes Mr. Peters as long as we got some significant changes.

For instance, Last Refuge is a terrible trait and everyone hates its. Why not replace last refuge with infusion of shadow? Infusion of shadow is a must have trait for anyone going into the shadow arts line and last refuge is not.

This would open up some build diversity.

Why not give venoms to all thieves as F2-F4 skills with the exception of basilisk venom? This would be a flat out buff to the class. Thief community might actually say, hey thanks for giving our class something new and useful instead of whine nerfs 24/7.

I’d like to see some of these changes be added into these huge nerfs. This is a huge nerf patch. No more perma stealth, no more s/d builds, opportunist nerf is going to effect every thief build as well.

swinks hit it right on the head. our steal alone is a joke compare to other classes. really it is. if traited its better but still not as good as f1 f2 f3 f4 other classes have especially when its an all or nothing…miss or hit.

agreed with the rest too!