Guild Wars 2

Karolis.4261:

Travlane.5948:

Karolis.4261:

Travlane.5948:

Hawkeye.9687:

Travlane.5948:

62.5k backstab here on a lvl 80 warrior. (perfect conditions)

none of these builds are max dmg 0_o not even close.

Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……

dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.

Wow this is new heights of skill right here. 62.5 k backstabs with carrion gear and 0 in crit strikes. Wow, just wow.

where did i say i had carrion gear? obv its zerk

Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……

dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.
[/quote]

Right here

[/quote]

i must have read too quickly. all i was trying to say is its possible to hit that hard period. whoever brought up carrion is an idiot. lol u cant hit for even close to 3k with carrion.

messiah.1908:

Travlane.5948:

see its comments like that …that make me laugh. nobody knows what dps is. mesmers have higher dps than thieves…. why you ask ? lol ok …..lets define DPS. D is for damage….. P is for per…..S is for second. DAMAGE PER SECOND.

just little correction

thieves have better dps (assuming power build) but mesmer have better Sdps
S for sustain

dps is calculte by damage/(activation time+ recharge time)= dps , that why thieves have the best dps in the game as they dont have recharge

however sustainable DPS refers to the ability to produce damage over a long period of time through attack chain which mesmer can do better as longer the fight thieves sdps getting lower

dps is dps. SDPS is also DPS. thieves have good burst and so do mesmers. but dps is dps. damage per second. if the DPS is on a scale of 5 seconds or less its burst. if we are talking 10 seconds or more is no doubt DPS.

burst…..short amount of seconds.

DPS…..damage sustained over time….longer than burst but divided by total seconds

there is no such thing unsustained dps or sustained dps. DPS is supposed to be looked at by a larger quantity pool values. you cant take 3 or 4 hits and divide as there isnt enough differentiation in skills and variables set within the experiment and no control to boot. DPS MUST BE OVER A PERIOD OF TIME. if u take 1 mesmer and 1 thief with roughly the same power crit crit % etc etc the mesmer will always have higher DPS. period.

ask anyone. well most …. its a dumb build for brainless players. its strong and u cant die if u dont want to. aand its not like “you wont die adn are super strong if u play right”….its there regardless.

thief on the other hand….even if u play average you are gonna die fast and die alot. u have to be super pro to really stand up and do decently/on par.

skill level need should = reward / power gained.

i think messiah had it right by mentioning it wouldnt be so bad with such and awesome uptime of aegis and protection…… if thief had such an incredible uptime of both of those…. players would be blowing up the forums asking for a nerf…… yet here we are while mesmers do it AND do dmg while in stealth and not even lift a fingher half the time to do so.

Qaelyn.7612:

Travlane.5948:

mmmhmmmm….but i dont believe somebody should be able to do nothing yet do alot you know what i mean? all while stealthed and pretty safe.

Congratulations — you just summarized every post asking for thieves to be nerfed that has ever been made.

undeserving requests as i stated mesmers are the ones that can really abuse it. if a thief goes in stealth and hides nobody is the worse for wear….. but a mesmer is still goig to hammer you and go right back in and hammer you while in stealth. thats the difference.

Bunda.2691:

Travlane.5948:

Bunda.2691:

Travlane.5948:

Bunda.2691:

I play mostly mesmer these days (though not blackwater), so thought I’d weigh in. That build—blackwater, PU/condition—is quite good, but it has a few huge weaknesses, notably conditions and cc. It also has zero chase ability. When I played that build, I could give many thieves a good fight … until they backed off. And this is the thief’s major class-defining quality: the ability to choose and dictate fights. Few other classes have the mobility and escape, save maybe GS warriors and some mesmers (though importantly not blackwater!).

I agree that Prismatic Understanding is powerful—perhaps a bit too powerful. But like all other builds across all characters, it has weaknesses. For example, necros, engis, and, yes, condition thieves can all wreck it. Mesmer invisibility is powerful in short fights, but as the fight goes on and cooldowns catch up with you, stealth is much harder to achieve. Good thieves know this. They hit hard, bait out mesmers’ invisibility, and, most importantly, know the terrain and where the mesmer is likely to go. Save your high-power skills for when our invis is on cooldown, use blind if you see phantasms being summoned (in fact, use blind liberally), but be prepared to pull back if you are getting low on health. Staff/scepter mesmers cannot really chase or cc you, nor do they have anything (except chaos storm, which is on a long cooldown and doesn’t do much damage) to even hurt you in shadow refuge (and they have nothing to knock you out of it).

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

PU power builds, on the other hand, are very phantasm reliant. Dodge and then kill the phantasms, and you’ll find that the mesmer has little else to do significant damage. I agree this can be hard against good mesmers. But good mesmers will kill me too, as good players should.

Last but not least, keep in mind that for mesmers, stealth (and PU) is a crutch. You give up a lot of offense to take it, and it provides high survival in exchange for significant damage output (or, in stealth/condi builds, mobility and cc). The best mesmers use very little stealth, because PU gimps a lot of other builds. This even further allows others—and thieves, above all—to dictate the terms of fights against stealth mesmers.

again…coversation yyou totally missed. its not about thief vs mesmer or mesmer not having or having weaknesses. its about stealth and the fact mesmers AI does the work and can even do dmg themselves while in stealth and never get revealed. thief however can do nothing while in stealth or it reveals him. period. thats not fair. PU is a build for dummies. literally….. heres the ideas……stay invis let the computer do the work mostly….and dodge roll when u need to while stealth isnt up…atleast til you entere stealth again then just continue eating popcorn.

So your complaint is with … the concept of mesmers?? That they cast (mostly) static clones that do a bit of damage?? I may as well condemn thieves guild (how dare you cast AI-controlled minions) or caltrops (How dare you cast a skill that has the audacity to, on its own, harm me if I decide to step in its red circle).

PU may be a bit powerful, I’ll give you that, but it’s still a crutch. You may not kill them, but you shouldn’t die to PU condition builds. Also, remember that revealed is meant primarily to prevent perma-stealth on thieves, not mesmers. I agree that it is a crude solution, but keep in mind that it was designed for thieves, not mesmers.

seems only a few adept players/experienced players get it.

thief AI = follow player while stealthed
mesmer AI= still attack direct and conditions while player stealthed

best AI = mesmer

thief = no dmg while stealthed without causing reveal
mesmer = can do damage while stealthed

best dps in stealth without reveal = mesmer

Thief = has to set up attacks in stealth and atleast 1/2 miss while playing defensively.
mesmer = ranged and don thave to set up but only play defensive/

You’re totally correct. Mesmers, by virtue of the way their profession works, do more damage than thieves while stealthed.

But, conversely, which profession does more damage while not stealthed?

In the end, it’s kind of a wash. As it should be.

mmmhmmmm….but i dont believe somebody should be able to do nothing yet do alot you know what i mean? all while stealthed and pretty safe.

i didnt say in pvp. :P i never said in pvp.

pvp is biased against thief anyway.

i run p/p andlove it for fractals. i still do 10k dmg per attack (unload) and have about 14k hp and lots of dodges etc.

10 30 0 0 30

sleight of hand
ricochet
long reach
mug
exucutioner
pistol mastery (10% extra pistol dmg nice for unload)
practiced tolerance

i use superior sigils of restoration and fire
runes arechoice

skills :

Signet of malice (withdraw for bosses)
roll for initiative (great for unload heals and boss dodges)

signet of agility (more dodges for defense and more dmg)
or
Shadowstep

shadow refuge (great for 2 free sneak attacks and a nice lifesteal for extra dmg/heal)

daggerstorm (thieves guild for bosses)

like i said i could get it around 70k with perfect conditions.

Bunda.2691:

Travlane.5948:

Bunda.2691:

I play mostly mesmer these days (though not blackwater), so thought I’d weigh in. That build—blackwater, PU/condition—is quite good, but it has a few huge weaknesses, notably conditions and cc. It also has zero chase ability. When I played that build, I could give many thieves a good fight … until they backed off. And this is the thief’s major class-defining quality: the ability to choose and dictate fights. Few other classes have the mobility and escape, save maybe GS warriors and some mesmers (though importantly not blackwater!).

I agree that Prismatic Understanding is powerful—perhaps a bit too powerful. But like all other builds across all characters, it has weaknesses. For example, necros, engis, and, yes, condition thieves can all wreck it. Mesmer invisibility is powerful in short fights, but as the fight goes on and cooldowns catch up with you, stealth is much harder to achieve. Good thieves know this. They hit hard, bait out mesmers’ invisibility, and, most importantly, know the terrain and where the mesmer is likely to go. Save your high-power skills for when our invis is on cooldown, use blind if you see phantasms being summoned (in fact, use blind liberally), but be prepared to pull back if you are getting low on health. Staff/scepter mesmers cannot really chase or cc you, nor do they have anything (except chaos storm, which is on a long cooldown and doesn’t do much damage) to even hurt you in shadow refuge (and they have nothing to knock you out of it).

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

PU power builds, on the other hand, are very phantasm reliant. Dodge and then kill the phantasms, and you’ll find that the mesmer has little else to do significant damage. I agree this can be hard against good mesmers. But good mesmers will kill me too, as good players should.

Last but not least, keep in mind that for mesmers, stealth (and PU) is a crutch. You give up a lot of offense to take it, and it provides high survival in exchange for significant damage output (or, in stealth/condi builds, mobility and cc). The best mesmers use very little stealth, because PU gimps a lot of other builds. This even further allows others—and thieves, above all—to dictate the terms of fights against stealth mesmers.

again…coversation yyou totally missed. its not about thief vs mesmer or mesmer not having or having weaknesses. its about stealth and the fact mesmers AI does the work and can even do dmg themselves while in stealth and never get revealed. thief however can do nothing while in stealth or it reveals him. period. thats not fair. PU is a build for dummies. literally….. heres the ideas……stay invis let the computer do the work mostly….and dodge roll when u need to while stealth isnt up…atleast til you entere stealth again then just continue eating popcorn.

So your complaint is with … the concept of mesmers?? That they cast (mostly) static clones that do a bit of damage?? I may as well condemn thieves guild (how dare you cast AI-controlled minions) or caltrops (How dare you cast a skill that has the audacity to, on its own, harm me if I decide to step in its red circle).

PU may be a bit powerful, I’ll give you that, but it’s still a crutch. You may not kill them, but you shouldn’t die to PU condition builds. Also, remember that revealed is meant primarily to prevent perma-stealth on thieves, not mesmers. I agree that it is a crude solution, but keep in mind that it was designed for thieves, not mesmers.

seems only a few adept players/experienced players get it.

thief AI = follow player while stealthed
mesmer AI= still attack direct and conditions while player stealthed

best AI = mesmer

thief = no dmg while stealthed without causing reveal
mesmer = can do damage while stealthed

best dps in stealth without reveal = mesmer

Thief = has to set up attacks in stealth and atleast 1/2 miss while playing defensively.
mesmer = ranged and don thave to set up but only play defensive/

62,398k

Message Body length must at least be 15.

Clumsy.6257:

Travlane.5948:

Clumsy.6257:

Travlane.5948:

Karolis.4261:

Travlane.5948:

Hawkeye.9687:

Travlane.5948:

62.5k backstab here on a lvl 80 warrior. (perfect conditions)

none of these builds are max dmg 0_o not even close.

Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……

dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.

Wow this is new heights of skill right here. 62.5 k backstabs with carrion gear and 0 in crit strikes. Wow, just wow.

where did i say i had carrion gear? obv its zerk

62.5k isnt possible with that build even with absolute max buffs

yes it is. and i did it. it takes absolute perfect conditions. i bet i could reach 70k with a lil more controlled experiment but yeah it is. not gonna lie the warrior was naked….but still 62k. try replicate it. i think it was like 61.5k or something but still almost 62k

edit: miscalculated ill post back once i get home to test actual maxes

or just try it out? thats why i did. :P

caveman.5840:

Brando.1374:

caveman.5840:

Deathspike.1870:

3000 power and hitting 3500~4500? On what? Warriors? Yeah that happens.

Try hitting a thief. It will hit for ~8000-12000. Or maybe a Ranger (the non-bunker ones).

it does not matter what class i am attacking my back stabs r all ways 3500-4500. is that low or is it just me ? again i have 3000power/50precision/50 crit what can i do to get a better back stab ? with almost full zerk armor and weps/ 2ascendent daggers…. i have 30 in crit 30 in stealth & 10 in the last one … and there people running sword dagger and getting huge backstabs . how r that doing this i can only get a 1500 back stab with sword dagger lol ???? any help would be awesome

Please tell me how to backstab with sword dagger?

lol i am asking how to get a better back stab more damage with d/d …… and i don’t under stand how people r getting huge back stabs with sword dagger when my highest back stab with s/d is 1500 ???

you mean tactical strike. most of it is traits. a thieves’dmg or defense is MOSTLY traits….then armor 2ndary. u can have full zerk armor and accs and weapons and all ascended and still not break 3500 backstab. u need the traits.

Bunda.2691:

I play mostly mesmer these days (though not blackwater), so thought I’d weigh in. That build—blackwater, PU/condition—is quite good, but it has a few huge weaknesses, notably conditions and cc. It also has zero chase ability. When I played that build, I could give many thieves a good fight … until they backed off. And this is the thief’s major class-defining quality: the ability to choose and dictate fights. Few other classes have the mobility and escape, save maybe GS warriors and some mesmers (though importantly not blackwater!).

I agree that Prismatic Understanding is powerful—perhaps a bit too powerful. But like all other builds across all characters, it has weaknesses. For example, necros, engis, and, yes, condition thieves can all wreck it. Mesmer invisibility is powerful in short fights, but as the fight goes on and cooldowns catch up with you, stealth is much harder to achieve. Good thieves know this. They hit hard, bait out mesmers’ invisibility, and, most importantly, know the terrain and where the mesmer is likely to go. Save your high-power skills for when our invis is on cooldown, use blind if you see phantasms being summoned (in fact, use blind liberally), but be prepared to pull back if you are getting low on health. Staff/scepter mesmers cannot really chase or cc you, nor do they have anything (except chaos storm, which is on a long cooldown and doesn’t do much damage) to even hurt you in shadow refuge (and they have nothing to knock you out of it).

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

PU power builds, on the other hand, are very phantasm reliant. Dodge and then kill the phantasms, and you’ll find that the mesmer has little else to do significant damage. I agree this can be hard against good mesmers. But good mesmers will kill me too, as good players should.

Last but not least, keep in mind that for mesmers, stealth (and PU) is a crutch. You give up a lot of offense to take it, and it provides high survival in exchange for significant damage output (or, in stealth/condi builds, mobility and cc). The best mesmers use very little stealth, because PU gimps a lot of other builds. This even further allows others—and thieves, above all—to dictate the terms of fights against stealth mesmers.

again…coversation yyou totally missed. its not about thief vs mesmer or mesmer not having or having weaknesses. its about stealth and the fact mesmers AI does the work and can even do dmg themselves while in stealth and never get revealed. thief however can do nothing while in stealth or it reveals him. period. thats not fair. PU is a build for dummies. literally….. heres the ideas……stay invis let the computer do the work mostly….and dodge roll when u need to while stealth isnt up…atleast til you entere stealth again then just continue eating popcorn.

Ironvos.9014:

While people are saying a thief cant do damage while in stealth.
The mesmer can also not do damage to a thief while he is in stealth.
All our skills require a target and we have no aoe, shatters require a target aswell.

So, if both thief and mesmer are stealthed, noone can damage eachother.
If only thief is stealthed, noone can damage eachother.
If only mesmer is stealthed, thief can still damage the mesmer and mesmer can damage the thief.
If none is stealthed, both can damage eachother .

again…another person that this coversation is over your head. its not about thief vs mesmer. its about stealth. and how much dmg each can do while in stealth. mesmer can do lots. thief can do none. problem? yes.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

baylock.1703:

to be fair mesmer has had nerfs patch after patch also and thiefs has alot better dps from mesmers espessaly PU mesmers who usealy have around 2,6k to 2,7k armor (it might be reason why your backstab hits so low) and abouth protection you can just run sword/dagger and rip boons I cant understand what the debate is abouth you compeare bunker build of one class to burst build of another? and let me clear f1 and f2 shatters reveal mesmers so does all aoe skills smart mesmer can stay in stealth for max 14 seconds straight after what they need to w8 for 10 seconds to go in again for 4 seconds than 12 seconds untill you can pop decoy again than another 12 seconds for next 4 seconds so basicly around 25% stealth during battle yea if you kill PU mesmer clones than L2p beacos it will hurt…

general tip stop attacking mesmer clones and you can fight PU mesmers

see its comments like that …that make me laugh. nobody knows what dps is. mesmers have higher dps than thieves…. why you ask ? lol ok …..lets define DPS. D is for damage….. P is for per…..S is for second. DAMAGE PER SECOND. how do we formulate DPS? its damage divided by total number of seconds. now when thieves enter stealth and evade we arent doing any dmg. and we do alot of evades and alot of stealth (both slightly more than a mesmer) …. on the other hand mesmer is doing dmg and conditions the whole time and has the same burst capability as a thief or close enough not to call it a noticeable difference(depending on build). so the entire time a thief is rolling around or walking around invis just so he can get his good hit….hes not doing dmg…which lowers his DPS…. now if he gets a 5k backstab in 10 seconds….thats 500 dmg per second. now the mesmer is constantly attacking for 1400 here 1700 there and every other second or so…. which is still alot higher than thief…bc hes able to do the dmg while in stealth and while evading…..

But does constant dps even matter? My thief has 10k+ dps, but only for 2 seconds. He can also perma stealth. That’s often all I need.

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

Exactly this.

so your thief does 20k dmg in 2 seconds?

baylock.1703:

to be fair mesmer has had nerfs patch after patch also and thiefs has alot better dps from mesmers espessaly PU mesmers who usealy have around 2,6k to 2,7k armor (it might be reason why your backstab hits so low) and abouth protection you can just run sword/dagger and rip boons I cant understand what the debate is abouth you compeare bunker build of one class to burst build of another? and let me clear f1 and f2 shatters reveal mesmers so does all aoe skills smart mesmer can stay in stealth for max 14 seconds straight after what they need to w8 for 10 seconds to go in again for 4 seconds than 12 seconds untill you can pop decoy again than another 12 seconds for next 4 seconds so basicly around 25% stealth during battle yea if you kill PU mesmer clones than L2p beacos it will hurt…

general tip stop attacking mesmer clones and you can fight PU mesmers

see its comments like that …that make me laugh. nobody knows what dps is. mesmers have higher dps than thieves…. why you ask ? lol ok …..lets define DPS. D is for damage….. P is for per…..S is for second. DAMAGE PER SECOND. how do we formulate DPS? its damage divided by total number of seconds. now when thieves enter stealth and evade we arent doing any dmg. and we do alot of evades and alot of stealth (both slightly more than a mesmer) …. on the other hand mesmer is doing dmg and conditions the whole time and has the same burst capability as a thief or close enough not to call it a noticeable difference(depending on build). so the entire time a thief is rolling around or walking around invis just so he can get his good hit….hes not doing dmg…which lowers his DPS…. now if he gets a 5k backstab in 10 seconds….thats 500 dmg per second. now the mesmer is constantly attacking for 1400 here 1700 there and every other second or so…. which is still alot higher than thief…bc hes able to do the dmg while in stealth and while evading…..

Clumsy.6257:

Travlane.5948:

Karolis.4261:

Travlane.5948:

Hawkeye.9687:

Travlane.5948:

62.5k backstab here on a lvl 80 warrior. (perfect conditions)

none of these builds are max dmg 0_o not even close.

Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……

dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.

Wow this is new heights of skill right here. 62.5 k backstabs with carrion gear and 0 in crit strikes. Wow, just wow.

where did i say i had carrion gear? obv its zerk

62.5k isnt possible with that build even with absolute max buffs

yes it is. and i did it. it takes absolute perfect conditions. i bet i could reach 70k with a lil more controlled experiment but yeah it is. not gonna lie the warrior was naked….but still 62k. try replicate it. i think it was like 61.5k or something but still almost 62k

Karolis.4261:

Travlane.5948:

Hawkeye.9687:

Travlane.5948:

62.5k backstab here on a lvl 80 warrior. (perfect conditions)

none of these builds are max dmg 0_o not even close.

Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……

dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.

Wow this is new heights of skill right here. 62.5 k backstabs with carrion gear and 0 in crit strikes. Wow, just wow.

where did i say i had carrion gear? obv its zerk

Hawkeye.9687:

Travlane.5948:

62.5k backstab here on a lvl 80 warrior. (perfect conditions)

none of these builds are max dmg 0_o not even close.

Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……

dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.

messiah.1908:

i have duel in wvw several PU mesmer as p/d with massive venom conditions
i won most of the time but here are the results:

1. the staff is so powerful defensive weapon with bleed and burning – 3 stack of bleed and burning most of the fight if i didnt kill them asap i could end up with 8-10 stacks
2. the mesmer went to stealth as soon as i did with torch and let their illusions to do the dmg
3. protection, aegis and regeneration was almost all the time
4. their tactics is not the be in stealth 30 seconds rather that in and out when needed (like we do). and run back to observe the results and reengage
5. illusionary counter is hard to notice so get prepare for 5 torment stacks
6. prestige is too powerful with blind and burning dmg as on its own but combined with scepter which lack of conditions its ok. so must to dodge after 4 seconds

so we talked after that and we agree that without the illusion that do the dmg the same tactics both classes have.
again the main different is that mesmer have clones which do all the dmg and being able to stay in stealth while we thieves cannot

compare it to ambush and thieves guild – if they didnt follow us while we in stealth and went to attack their target (like illusion) and didnt disengage i am sure so plenty QQ was on each class forum on us

why i think i won – i won in the stealth contest and put lots of pressure with conditions
so every time i saw condition i went stealth to clear it so he wouldnt stack me.

the basic 0,0,30,20,20 with bleeding only wont cut it as the mesmer will cleanse up to 2 conditions easily

why i lost – the mesmer pushed me to fight over 1:30 min so he got his stealth skills again while i was 50% hp or less

here in lies the problem. they should be revealed but almost NEVER are. so they attack to add torment and burning and bleeding and hop back in 1 sec later and are STILL doing dmg in and out of stealth. theres no price to pay for stealth.

Id like somebody to dare try explain to me how its fair shatter which blows up clones with no target wont cause revealed but cluster bomb hitting a round almost 600 range away will.

our thieves guild and ambush should attack just like clones but they dont. we get really short changed while stealthed. i dont mind it… but to give somebody the use of stealth like thief (inherent to class build/mechanic) and not have them pay any real penalty 90% of the time just seems like a gift.

in conclusion:

1) mesmers do dmg and no reveal
2) they have an extremely high uptime on stealth + dodges/regen
3) their AI clones follow and attack while owner in stealth

none of these a thief has. obv the balance/devs/prog teams play mesmer. we thieves get used to it. makes me 2nd guess my purchase. i played monk as primary and assassin as 2ndary in gw1. i loved both classes. they dumbed this game down too much but making every self reliant and losing team atmosphere by doing so. took our build creativity away by 90% from gw1. weapons look like a 5th grader created them…just go look at the lions arch trader up the stairs behind the TP. cmon anet …really? anyway my peace is said.

80% of these arent ladies i bet. lol

less effective yes i totally agree. but i more than get the job done unless its 2 v 1 then i need room to play. its quite viable but there is no thief bunker build better than p/d. there just isnt. but the fact about thief being less effective than EVERY other class to bunker? yep i agree. thief are in bottom 2 classes wanted for tpvp/.

Xaylin.1860:

Wow… there is some biased stuff going on here which in no way is fact based…

Even if the Mesmer specced into Illusions after the incomming patch he won’t exceed a 42.5% uptime (shorter cd on Decoy) but will as well lose DE and other important traits. There also is no Blurred Frenzy in many PU builds.

Furthermore, if you are too “proud” to stealth, it is your own fault. Use CnD on the Illusions and the Mesmer won’t be able to do anything. Any other stealth skill or stealth combo will work aswell. You can also just kill the Phantasms with one or two hits. They won’t proc traits because most on-death traits only proc from Clones. Not Phantasms. There will only be 5-6 Phantasms per minute in this build and when you kill them or stealth the Mesmer won’t deal any damage and just waste his utility skills.

The iMage also reveals the Mesmers position because of the bouncing projectile. Yey.

Boons
Some people constantly mention perma boons. PU builds indeed have a nice time uptime of Protection. However, it is random and in no way permanent. You also lose a quite big amount of Protection uptime while in stealth. Yes, it does mitigate damage while in stealth. But you will need it outside of stealth not while being stealthed. Each boon is very short (3s if no investment was made in boon duration, 4s if using Traveler runes which will result in a damage loss). Aegis is nice but only has a 33% chance to procc which is quite bad considering it only stacks in duration. It might help while being in stealth (area damage or cleave damage). But when you drop out of stealth it is gone quickly anyway. If you are not able to counter-damage Regeneration – which might tick about 110-130 health per second – good lord… There won’t be any help for you anyway. Btw… if you are concerned about healing up in stealth… that’s about 2700 life when chaining stealth. So really no big deal at all.

Since your boons are only applied while in stealth, it is unlikely you will have a higher boon uptime than 50-60% since you can’t stealth more than 40% of the time. Makes sense, right? So no perma-anything.

Vigor
Since the patch announcement people like to stress perma Vigor traits so I want to talk about it seperately. While you are in stealth you won’t deal any damage. Phantasms do not proc the trait. If you assume a 40% stealth up time this also results in a – at best – 60% Vigor uptime. Since this is a condition build you will hit your enemy less often because you do not have a reasonable condition AA. So it is more about 40-50%.

Summary
While PU builds are very good for roaming the scenarios described in this thread are very subjective and simply not true. The PU builds also have several disadvantages like weaknesses to boon stripping, poor condition removal and close to no CC which makes running away very easy for your enemies. Especially S/D can destroy those builds. When using Pistol you can blind the Mesmer which will result in no Phantasm spawning at all. And if you can’t beat him just stealth away. That’s something a Thief is best at.

This might indeed be a L2P issue. Sorry.

i think its more of a learn to read issue. its not not being able to kill/survive. the topic/point went right over your head. maybe thats myfault for insinuating rather than bluntly stating. let me try again

shatter = no reveal
cluster bomb = reveal

both are aoe explosions (shatter has conditions too but w.e.) and no target needed.
why is one have no drawback but the other does. hrmmm.

Stealth on mesmer = doing pretty much the same dmg as not in stealth
Stealth on thief = dealing NO dmg unless you count caltrops?

a mesmer can hide pretty much half the battle and dodge the other half the battle and let the mesmers clones/phants do all the work. this takes no skill and is very formidable. thieves used to be strong with burst but not are kinda of laughable… and our benefits came at the price of being able to use stealth…. we would die. but when we win it was well earned and worked for (last 8 months or so).

Its about taking the control away from the player yet leaving them the same amount of power. like warriors who get amazinghealing for a passive…most amazing.

Hide in shadows is 5500 per 30 seconds which is 183.333 per second.
Healing signet is like 13500 per 30 seconds which is 450 per second PASSIVE.

high reward high power low/none skill needed.

in summary thieves’ stealth = revealed on dmg and so should mesmers. period.

how to fix? just some ideas not saying they are good but its a starting point to talk.

no clonesmade while invis? shorter invis? shatter=revealed? etc etc etc

Walker.3056:

Travlane.5948:

Walker.3056:

Travlane.5948:

Chicago Jack.5647:

Lol, if you play p/d, you’re bound to sit on a person for a long time – this is the reason why you don’t see p/d in high-level play. It’s not a burst spec. It’s a condition spec.

actually i am never invis more than a second at a time. and thats super high lvl play. duel if ud like to learn.

If you really think s/D thief is High level Tpvp and that a duel shows whos better or more experiented in a TPVP you really shouldnt discuss anymore.

What Chicago said is True, s/d isnt a burst spec, doesnt matter if you suas invi a lot or not and thais why it doesnt Help your tem in a Tpvp as much as a burst spec. A cond necro or engi Would Help the team much more than the s/d thief.

S/D is good buy for duels or wvw roaming. It lacks to much when talking team wise thats why nome of the TOP teams use it.

if u think s/d isnt burst setup then idk what to tell u. condis wont work with s/x …. simple as that. not really sure what u were even getting at here.

You totally right I miss spelled it everytime by p/D. Just swap every s/d for p/d
Sorry about the missunderstanding
Edited.

i prefer p/d as im not dodging out of battle and im doing AOE dmg and AOE conditions. im only in stealth for 1 second and have basically the same energy as s/d build…. much more defense….. i work well in tpvp with p/d. i just change around my utilities for the job and 2 traits.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

no…stealth is both the same. enter stealth you are invisible. both stealths can be “revealed” but for thief its any dmg and mesmer only weapons dmg.

It is the same for both: only direct damage breaks stealth. Thief summons or condition fields don’t break stealth. Anyway, what you fought was a silly, cookie cutter duel build called the PU mesmer. The idea of PU mesmer is to spam phantasms (and clones for their traited death effect) and then just try to survive by running away and stealthing as much as possible. It’s both boring to play against and to play as, I don’t know why people bring these to duels.

if shatter doesnt break stealth then neither should cluster bomb. they are both explosions without targets. so…. u were saying? :P

hmm never had a problem with daggers…pretty much only pistol and super super rare sb .

ill have to untag auto attack as “auto” …..sad bc i hate smashing 1 all the time.

Qaelyn.7612:

messiah.1908:

mesmer can be in stealth for 30 seconds

Over what, a 90 second time frame? And that’s if they spec entirely for that, which means they aren’t going to do much of anything useful.

Thieves can be nearly constantly stealthed without crippling their build. The two are not comparable.

Anyway, not sure what the point of complaining about mesmers is. Not like it’s going to accomplish anything.

Thieves should be made flexible and functional irrespective of how much stealth other classes get.

they need to have the same risk as thieves do while invis. no dmg or if u do damage it causes revealed. period. unles syou cast AOE on ground like caltrops or null field etc.

the thread is about stealth and how thieves are punished/held back while using it. we cant do dmg or we get revealed. mesmers need not worry about that. they just do their thing and hide while the computer (AI) does the killing for them pretty much. there is no skill needed.

the other thing i attached in idea to this thread is the fact we are the ones always getting nerfed and our stealth comes at much more of a risk than mesmers.

1200 on cluster is needed. 900 is useless i dont use my dreamer anymore in wvw…..or pve. its so slow and short ranged id rather use p/p. i hate SB bc of cluster bomb and the loss of heat seeker. they need to speed up auto attacks on pistol and sb and make head shot/cluster bomb / body shot 1200 range. period.

ive done about 12500 to players and 16k in pve….but thats with vulnerabilty high dmg build and under 33% etc. etc

messiah.1908:

+1 hihey

just dont use % rather seconds. lets see how long a mesmer can be stealth by skills rotation
1.prestige – 4 seconds + blind + burning+aegis+protection+regeneration
2.decoy – 4 seconds + breakstun+aegis+protection+regeneration
3.veil – 3-6 seconds (can be used twice)+aegis+protection+regeneration
4.mass invi – 6 seconds + aegis+protection+regeneration
5.Desperate Decoy – 4 seconds +aegis+protection+regeneration
and 1 again for 4 more seconds
so total of 30 seconds uptime for stealth while getting aegis+protection+regeneration as defense and getting few offense as blind and burning

and if he use blurring so he is invuln for 3 seconds and distortion for 3 seconds more
so 36 seconds up time (after 40 decoy is up again)

so to say 50% up time its really depends how long you fight the mesmer
if you fight him 1 min so yes 50% and even more with evade (like hihey mention)

so what have we learned from that (or what have i learned from it)
mesmer can attack you for 36 seconds without being seen at all or 44 seconds with 4 seconds to catch them between their clones.

again- mesmer CAN attack you from stealth without being REVEALED!!!

while we theives dont (or wont use it) have the ability to perma stealth that long unless all our utilities are SR (16 s) BP (4 s ) HiS (4 s ) (or use combos) which dont allow you to attack unless you want to get revealed

i try to burst the mesmer first to use his utilities earlier and than try to win the stealth contest by prolonging the fight above 40-60 seconds with cnd. if i manage to do that my odds getting better but so far 50%/50% for me (i dont have utilities to stealth thus only cnd so i must not miss). if i manage to do that and if the mesmer is smart he will disengage the fight or put lots of clones just to get more skills rdy to be used, thus i usually let them run

+1’d you. this is it. i had a longer fight with the mesmer i was sayig in my other forum. people thought i was exxagerating but it was def atleast 50% uptime and i had nobody to attack while i was being attacked and recieveing dmg. its a joke really is. no skill build. let the clones do most the work.

Hype.8032:

Using a PU mesmer in a duel is pure cheese, but you know that already right? As for your question, he was probably using 20/0/30/x/x like messiah said. Really, if it hasn’t sunk in yet…. stop using PU mesmer in duels and learn a real build.

Cheers!

Edit: p/d is a tanky/bunker build but you can’t bunker a point with it. So it’s useless in spvp unless you find a way to make venom share work for your team.

you “can” but it requires a few utitlies like CALTROPS, smokescreen/blinding powder and shadow refuge (heals like 4k with sneak attacks 2x)….

a lil trick i learned is u can get 2 sneak attacks per shadow refuge…. soon as you cast shadow refuge which gives aoe blind heals and removes condis…. mash 1 1 1 1 for sneak attack then stop attacking/drop target and roll in 1 second…. u will enter stealth again at the very last moment and get another free sneak attack if you are using carrion/dire u dont have to stay in stealth. i never do unless its a mesmer using a crappy PU build.

messiah.1908:

Mordecai.6318:

You are clueless.

lets keep it clean

he is not clueless as he has the right for his own opinions

i do disagree as my sneak attack with full dire does 1500 dmg and not 400 as i got 2900 attack

i also used to run carrion but in wvw when you can be burst suddenly by 3 warrior and die instantly i prefer to go dire as now i can soak most of their dmg and run more easily (not if i perma stun). and also i run with group raids mostly where toughness is more needed

bs thieves do 5-7k dmg while in carrion its more like 10-12k
HS thieves do like 0.5-2k dmg while in carrion its more like 2-6k

its not that big of a gap in defense. its like 4500 on HS in dire to 6k on HS in carrion

i drop d/p thieves with my build before they enter stealth for the first time . . half that is bc of build half is bc of carrion giving me more direct dmg. it takes about 5-6 seconds to drop any d/p player. blinding powder is usually the only way they get out. in those 5-6 seconds i get an extra 2500 damage. it really adds up.

messiah.1908:

Travlane.5948:

if u kill anyone in 3 secs its upleveled :P. especially cutting your dmg in half with dire gear.

with dire gear and my build when i am burst on someone i have 2.9k attack with 10 stacks of might so same as carrion and even better as i got more thoughness

also p/d condition ignore armor so uplvled or not is not the issue. and i also kill ppl who are not uplvled in 3 seconds with 11 stacks of torment, 8 stacks of bleeding, poison which do 11k dmg in 3 seconds and while immobilize and stun i do 5-10k direct dmg and steal health from them with leech venom 2k

:)

“with 10 might”
“with 11 stacks of torment”

that literally costs you all of your initiative your steal and atleast 2 of your utilities. hope they dont have a condi cleanse…..then ur sittting nice.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAnnyway….. you plan well for high armor classes but what about high armor AND high condi cleanse? seriously i highly doubt u can 1 v 1 a guardian with a few of their specs with dire armor. the power really makes a big difference.

and i know each person has their own preference. but you are thinking that 2x the dmg isnt needed. which means your reaction time/skills/experience is low? i dont see the need for all that extra armor on the most defensive build a thief has. its like comparing builds…. lets say d/d is 9 rating offense 3 rating defense. now p/d is like 7 rating offense (more like 5 with dire ) and 8 in defense. why would you wanna go from 7 and 8 to 5 and 9 ? thats what im asking. is the 100% extra direct dmg really worth extra toughness in the most defensive buidl we have? oh actually i should have asked you…do you ues blind on stealth? and remove condi onstealth? if you do then my question stands. if u dontthen your argument totally makes more sense. sorry if i assumed u were using blind on stealth/remove condi stealth etc and regen in stealth .

messiah.1908:

mesmer can be in stealth for 30 seconds (mmm… remind you perma something?)
and evade for 6 seconds while having aegis+protection+regeneration so about more 3 seconds to use decoy again so 44 up time almost invulnerable
while his illusion doing dmg (mostly conditions)

so if the fight is 1 min (for a thief its long fight) its almost 50% up time and if the fight is 2 min its 50% up time (prestige, mass invi and veil are up again) and so on

so mesmer have 50% stealth up time while not being revealed
we thieves must play more carefully and smartly to take an average mesmer. (take phantasm first, using cnd a lot and dont miss etc

imo p/d v PU -> 50% to both as who wins the stealth/illusions game
d/x v PU -> thieves have the upper hand with fast burst

you are the only person on this thread that obviously knows what is going on. this is my point…and yes d/x is a better matchup for condi mesmer. but the thing is that everyone points out how our stealth is soo op when ew have no defense and we always get these nerfs. mesmers dont have to be good and dont have to really think like we do in stealth and they dont get pestered by revealed like we do. there is a huge gap in skill lvl needed to play each of these classes and i see more nerfs coming….. im just not understanding why anet is taking the direction it is. its like they want thieves to quit. i play thief bc of teleports and dodges bc they are fun. i do NOT play thief bc it is strong….i can beat pretty much anyone 1 v 1 however that doesnt translate well into winning guild vs guild or wvwvw or spvp/tpvp etc. invis is actually a hinderence in tpvp/spvp….. anyway thtas off topic.

now i dont think mesmers should get revealed from clones/phants blowing up or clone/phant attacks but i do think they should have to put a lil more effort in than just letting AI do 75% of the work and stay invis over half the match. maybe downgrade it harshly like a CD nerf or something then buff a weapon skill(s) to compensate EQUALLY for it. basically make atleast 60% of the dmg coming from the player and 40% from clones. this 75 25 or 80 20 crap is a joke. no talent lazy class :/

protection, invulnerabilty, aegis, invis, clones, phantasmsm, blurr, shall i go on? what is the mesmers price to pay for 50% stealth uptime?

Thief …. none of the above and pays with the worst defense in the game for stealth and one of the higher 3 damage classes. :/

the OP isnt even a thief. seriously. theres no bargaining here. spvp or tpvp or wvw or pve….doesnt matter u take that away nobody is going to play sword anymore. its a shame. stupid shame at that.

muscarine.5136:

Along with the auto attack issue, sometimes you will enter stealth while your pistol projectile is already launch and hasn’t touched your target yet.
Happens in a very short time.

Projectile moving —-> Stealth —-> Projectile hits —-> lose stealth immediately —-> ??? —-> Profit. Wait. No. Revealed.

i know that… especially sux bc i use ricochet. but i already said earlier i ruled that out. not the problem. its a bug. stealth is supposed to stop all attack unless u press it…even if it is on auto use…..and yes even auto attack is SUPPOSED to work that way. this doesnt happen with daggers…..only pistol idk y.

Walker.3056:

Travlane.5948:

Chicago Jack.5647:

Lol, if you play p/d, you’re bound to sit on a person for a long time – this is the reason why you don’t see p/d in high-level play. It’s not a burst spec. It’s a condition spec.

actually i am never invis more than a second at a time. and thats super high lvl play. duel if ud like to learn.

If you really think s/D thief is High level Tpvp and that a duel shows whos better or more experiented in a TPVP you really shouldnt discuss anymore.

What Chicago said is True, s/d isnt a burst spec, doesnt matter if you suas invi a lot or not and thais why it doesnt Help your tem in a Tpvp as much as a burst spec. A cond necro or engi Would Help the team much more than the s/d thief.

S/D is good buy for duels or wvw roaming. It lacks to much when talking team wise thats why nome of the TOP teams use it.

if u think s/d isnt burst setup then idk what to tell u. condis wont work with s/x …. simple as that. not really sure what u were even getting at here.

Kadin.2356:

BladeNinja.4671:

Stop using it… You’re better off using the utility skill then this

That’s the main problem, you can’t “stop using it” as it’s the adept trait in the shadow arts line so as long as you go more than 5 points deep you end up with this Russian roulette of an ability.

Travlane.5948:

make last refuge take precedence over whatever you are doing (interrupt any skill being used) and ignore outgoing damage so it puts a 3 second stealth on you that cannot be removed without another attack.

What so you can just attack from stealth without getting revealed? No it’s much easier just to, as I suggested, make the next stealth last 4 seconds longer so that you can actually stay in stealth and heal up a little (which is the whole point of the shadow arts tree anyway)

u didnt read it correctly so let me try a lil more … simply.

Last refuge should take precedence. interupts any and all activated skills. it blocks all your skills from going off for .5 seconds after. invis for 1.5 secs total so for the last 1 sec you can still get revealed if u so choose to attack. get it now?

duration is different but the definition/mechanic is same on both characters.

no…stealth is both the same. enter stealth you are invisible. both stealths can be “revealed” but for thief its any dmg and mesmer only weapons dmg.

fact is both stealths are the same. thief stealth is more readily available but mesmer stealth is more than useful too. the point ive been making is that they do ALOT of dmg and dont lose stealth into reveal. we do. theres no price to pay for doing dmg in stealth. this means there is no skill involved….well very low skill involved and high reward.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Travlane.5948:

actually i am never invis more than a second at a time.

And that is why I’m saying this is the reason why you’re having trouble – you are tying to fit a square block into a circle hole. The fundamental problem with running P/D as a roamer spec is that it involves sitting on a target for a longer amount of time than a typical thief build (S/D or D/P; to a lesser extent with S/D, but S/D can contest cap points) you would see in upper level play. You need to be able to bop in, take out a target, then bop out as a roamer. If it is attempted to be used as a type of team-fighter, then a necro can do the job better. This is why we don’t see P/D in tournies.

Travlane.5948:

they can invis 50-60% of a 1 v 1 and we can 75%+ but the difference is dmg. they can we cant.

If you used your stealth duration for more than 1 second, your endurance bars will will up and you will have more dodges to use while out of stealth thereby mitigating most of their phantasm damage. This situation is, in fact, about how you use stealth.

quite wrong but u WOULD be right if u were talking cookie cutter crap. my build isnt meant to stay invis….its a p/d pressure condition build. very different.

Ironvos.9014:

Travlane.5948:

its not about whos stealthier….its the fact we keep getting nerfed all the time and we are the ones that have to atually think while stealth…have to actually plan and move to set up attacks. mesmers dont have to dot hat. they dont get revealed…..we do everytime almost. huge difference. we cnat do dmg while invis…they can. they can invis 50-60% of a 1 v 1 and we can 75%+ but the difference is dmg. they can we cant.

Mesmer can at most be in stealth 35% of a fight.
That is with mass invis, veil, decoy, prestige, all with PU and all their cooldown reductions.
Requires a minimum of 20/0/30/0/25 (20/0/30/0/15 after 10th dec)
Many of our stealth attempts also are prone to failing, getting revealed instead of stealth.
Mass invis is easy to get interrupted 1 +3/4s cast time and easily spotted due to how we raise our right arm , and veil is easy to see and can be aoe’ed.
Choosing all those skills uses up 2 utilities, an elite and an offhand weapon.
This leaves us with no room for condi removal and mobility.

As for mesmer being so easy, remember that we have no spammable skills, once we use a skill it’s on a long cooldown.
We can not use the most appropriate skills everytime like a thief can.
Our damage that comes from phantasms is also very random, they usually don’t survive after their initial attack because many classes have access to much aoe that oneshots them, sometimes even before they can even attack once.
Those phantasm skills also have a long casttime that can be interrupted by cc spam.

i sat back and watched. about 12 times stealthed….1 reveal and about half the match was stealthed. 1v1 against a warrior (hammer/LB).

babazhook.6805:

I am curious as to why people prefer shadow rejuv over shadow protector. Protector allows you to keep up regen constantly wherein you get around 190 health per pulse which works in or out of hiding. This is greater then the total health offered by Rejuv on any of the hides outside using refuge and staying in the full duration. It also gets applied top allies you happen to stealth and this really can be useful at keep gates to aid the folk arming the rams and standing in an aoe.

Use them both and you can have constant regen in and out and close to 600 per pulse heal while hid.

Thoughts?

with rejuv…u can get both. if you use hide in shadows you get regen. overlaps :P better to have 3 diff kinds of heals.

1) shadow rejuv (heal in stealth)
2) Hide in shadows (heal in stealth plus regen)
3) Ele regen (blue icon)

thats why plus rejuv is more.

vincecontix.1264:

Travlane.5948:

dire gear is so defensive. the BUILD is overly defensive. why add more defense to a defensive build. you need more dmg. go carrion. period. some players like to go -%condi time. it hurts …with dire you have lik 400-475 ish sneak attack direc dmg…with carrion its 850-1150. and the normal AA is also over 100% more dmg. is it worth trading for the toughness that you already have a lot of form 300 in SA? def not…. AOE blinds….invis…healing while invis…..remove conditions while invis…. Hide in shadows is like 8500 heal. shadow refuge is a FULL heal everytime. but lets take more toughness just incase? i mean if ur a REALLY bad player or REALLY new yes do take dire. but when its time to get exotic and ascended/legendaries go for carrion or u will end up wasting your money.

Enough from you.

OOOOH THE LOGIC! stop with it! IT HUUUUUUUURTS! not to mention the experience.

its not about whos stealthier….its the fact we keep getting nerfed all the time and we are the ones that have to atually think while stealth…have to actually plan and move to set up attacks. mesmers dont have to dot hat. they dont get revealed…..we do everytime almost. huge difference. we cnat do dmg while invis…they can. they can invis 50-60% of a 1 v 1 and we can 75%+ but the difference is dmg. they can we cant.

never run daggerstorm. only reflects about 20% of incoming dmg and ur vulnerable for 8 secs. NEVER run it in a 1 v 1