Guild Wars 2

Jumper.9482:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SgWmA2IIw0

This is an example of what I mean when you should have to play well to do well with S/D.
The point at which you dodge predict and bait each dodge from your opponent.
Don’t get me wrong, Folly is a great player. I just counterplayed his counterplays to near perfection in that instance baiting out every single one of his dodges.
This was when Beastmasters were considered near godmode 1v1.
Given, this was before the +1init and -1Boonsteal nerfs, but still..
At the moment you can get away with random 3 spam without even thinking about what your opponent is doing and reacting. What it should be more about is the above.
S/D does probably deserve more nerfs when played to this degree. But to kill it completely in this way is just sad.

all that fancy work…nice and all but in a 3 v 3 your are dead. u barely won that fight and this was BEFORE the LS nerf. if this ranger had a stun break might have been different. good play and you really have a good point. this video really exemplifies the fact that thief shouldnt be nerfed ever again in any fashion. we barely get by as is.

i hate to admit i have this problem too. i play p/d mainly right now…still win most of the time but i REALLY have to have them 1 v 1 or will prolly die/retreat. 1 set of grenade attack (1 attack aka multiple grenades) added only about 10% of my hp which is like 2k dmg but also added FIRE/POISON/BLEED on the same friggen attack. seems condi engies are a lil op right now. its kinda gross. just my opinion tho. they are solid all around…. but really amazing in adding everything in attack kitten nal.

well i dont think its that good. atleast the rune. if u think about it…. aegis is more for WVW/PVP and in wvw or pvp we dont really use signets much…. sometimes in SPVP we might use infil signet. overall our signets are quite underwhelming. the can add well into builds not dont make a build like shadow refuge or blinding powder or shadowstep. those are TRUE utilities. this will go well for warriors…. as usual :/

“spam it over and over again” …. if it so strong why thieves die about 5x more than other classes :P….. i get what ur saying alot in this video…. but you are looking at it from a nook n cranny perspective. try it from the big picture. other classes run thru aoe an have all these defense. if a thief wantzs to spam somethign let em.

im not saying jumper is a bad player. hes pretty good. but heres the thing. lets see a 30 min video of gameplay in spvp/tpvp and wvw. i think you guys would see a whole different player. and thats not a dig on jumper…thats a dig on the class. u guys and everyone thinks thief needs to be downgraded….they need to be buffed.

CHALLENGE>>>>>>>> make a 30 min video withing 1 day of this challenge of jumper playing in wvw not romaing or in spvp trying to win and or in tpvp playing hard and nto picking off loaners

ur a troll….+2 or +3 init of infil return? ur crazy. its 5 init to remove 1 condi and immob for 1 sec plus move out of dmg 600 range. 5 init. tyhats so much weaker than skill 3 on d/p…… seriously…. 5 init for infil return? its already hard as hell to play bc its so risky

u think IR is strong? lol wtf…how many stuns and blinds guards n warriors have? its impossible to play without it!

kbenton.4915:

No really. Thank you. I see a lot of you in wvw and this helps me realize you know what you are doing in your choices to balance classes. I’ve played a thief since launch, and it is still my only level 80. I absolutely love how it plays.

Thank you for nerfing the cheesy builds, since, well, they all deserved it during their time. D/p perma stealth build is by far the worst of them and you guys decided to finally change it which will cause people to think thieves are bad now (not just thief players). This is incredible because the ceiling to play a thief well has just been raised, and a lot of the people that play d/p will realize their “skill” wasn’t too great after all. Since a lot of people will still undoubtedly see these players still running around on their thieves, and start doing much better against them I thank you. You have opened up my build and people will underestimate the better played thieves., thus creating more victories for them.

To d/p players. All is not lost. Thief is a great class with many more viable specs than you might think. We are not a face roll glass cannon class but more a war of attrition class now, especially with initiative as our source, and not cool downs. We should be able to out last opponents with grace, positioning, and spending unitive wisely. I look forward to the patch, and hope everyone else does too.

so usefull in 1 v 1….oh wait….there is no 1v1 part of the game. its GUILD wars. technically ur right but its useless.

ahh i see what ur saying. have you been playing thief long? unless ur 3v1 or more should still be a VERY forgiving build. guardian builds are very hard if its a good player but still very beatable. just make sure you drop aegis b4 you get CND off.

go go to mists with crap armor and show you if u dont believe me. or just go check yourself. i mgith go in a min and try the difference between dire and carrion on incoming dmg. i wont use auto attacks and i wont use backstabs to gauge…. i use something with roughly 1 for a coeficcient when ill try.

ok just did the math. on the strongest dmg character (supposedly) thief iwth FULL ZERKER and ALL ASCENDEDS …INCLUDING weapons (legendary) the dmg difference was a little over 300 on a clusterbomb between the sets.

incoming dmg on dire set = 1125

incoming dmg on carr set = 1450

Base HP same for both (granted same builds) so 325 dmg less on a cluster bomb. a powerful skill. Now nobody really goes zerker in WVW or even spvp. so lets look at it from a PVT set and then average both to get a general idea of what its going to save.

on a power guardian with all exotics its about 230damage difference. i chose 2 powerful attacks for both. now not EVERY attack is powerful …some are glances … some are auto attacks and not everyone is running full power builds. so guestimate how much AVERAGE dmg per hit is lowerd. id go about 150ish. still way more than i first guessed.

the difference in dmg dealt is 550-850 per sneak attack and not sure about CND as i havent tried yet yet. 550 is the low end on heavy full 2600 armors. and 850 more is on the medium to lights.

so only average its about 700 dmg extra per Sneack per CND etc .

so the question is which do you prefer…..dealing over double direct dmg? or more toughness to shave off 150ish dmg per hit. both are nice but the question is which does the build need more? well direct dmg is OBVIOUSLY the weakness of the build. and defense is its toughness. p/d playd right is the most defensive build thief has.

Fade.7658:

Travlane.5948:

Fade.7658:

The Dire vs. Carrion argument really boils down to your playstyle and number of opponents. I’ve found Carrion is a little better in a 1 on 1, and Dire works better against 2 or more opponents.

Edit: I run 3044 Armor, which equates to 39.68% reduction in damage. That results in a bit more than 30 per hit, especially if it’s a special attack like backstab.

ummm how much dmg reduction is the difference of power from dire to carrion. im guessing about 30 per hit. guessing. could be far off i dont know. havent played with the formula since like march.

tell me how much 718 is. i just added up full carrion on me. thats what i have. dire has 0 power. but lets now look at dire. full dire which gives toughness instead of power…. so 718 toughness

very little difference….. not worth losing double your direct dmg from CND and SNEAK ATTACK and AUTO ATTACK

I think it also depends what tier you’re in for WvW, which I’m assuming is the test bed for this conversation. I’m on tier 1, and it’s a zerg fest everywhere you go. You rarely get just 1 opponent and that’s where the extra defense helps imo.

Don’t get me wrong, I used Carrion for the longest time, and it does have it’s uses. If I merely swapped my Dire armor out for Carrion, it would net me 224 power. I’d have to make more changes to really make a difference in direct damage. That wouldn’t net me twice the direct damage I have now. I could make changes to get power to the point where I’m near 3K attack, but then you start losing condition damage.

There’s a new Sigil coming out that boosts toughness on every kill, like the corruption sigil, so you can likely have your cake and eat it too using that (swap Dire for Carrion, and use that to offset the toughness loss).

full carrion out for full dire = 718 power loss

i consider TPVP/SPVP/WVW when i make comments. i mean i guess if ur in zerg style you COULD use dire and it wouldnt be bad. but if ur in a zerg as a thief ur hurting your team. u are better of rerolling to a diff class to go zerging :P i dont mean that in a bad way….just any other class is more productive in huge zergs. thieves are more of a cap camper , havoc squads and roamers. Not only that tpvp/spvp is never zerging. seriously do the math….its MINUTE. like if u had 50k hp then id say yeah its worth it bc u could take enough hits for it to really add up. but with 18k hp or so….. :P you wont notice enough HP saved from that bitty toughness. i used rabid and apothecaries to test it out. bleh the direct dmg loss was noticeable and so obvious. i could make a video but i sold my crappy toughness armor.

30 seconds makes it useless. literally…well almsot literally. 30 secs for 2 stacks? its gotta be atleast 8 stacks if 30 secs. i could live with that.

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

irishking.8956:

Travlane.5948:

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

p/d with the rights runes and sigils is an amazing build to play. its easy but hard to master/play well in a competitive setting.

P/D P/D Sigil of Energy on Pistols. Sigil of Corruption. Sigil of Agony.

10 0 30 0 30

Mug
Cloaked in Shadow, Shadows Embrace, Shadow’s Rejuvenation
Long Reach, Ricochet/Bountiful Theft, Sleight of Hand

2 Krait 2 Centaur 2 Afflicted (runes) or 6 Torment runes

Full carrion armor and full carrion weapons.

Hide in Shadow
Scorpion Wire/Shadow Step/Caltrops (depends on situation)
Blinding Powder
Shadows refuge
Daggerstorm/Thieves Guild

Rock n Roll have fun! this build can beat anything including d/p and pesky warrior guard builds. high healing is important to keep up that poison so make sure those steals hit and not get blocked/dodged. torment on melee…its pretty strait forward. you average 6 stuns a minute…not as high as a warrior but time it forheals andbig moves.

IMO carrion isnt as useful now that dire is available since power doesn’t scale your condi damage. Better off having higher armor because the direct damage is more or less laughable.

dire is better defense. but the defense is already superb. dont need more. need power for poison dmg. and direct dmg. some classes have -65% condi removal time so youneed to have 1100 dmg on sneak attacks etc. it really adds up! even burst thieves dont make me fret. takes 3-4 good crit backstabs to take down this build.

Power doesn’t make poison damage any better. Might is the only thing that effects your condi damage that also adds power. Power is a wasted stat. Most dont run -65% condi duration and thats limited to certain classes/builds. Toughness on the other hand is absolutely not a wasted stat.

went in with testing conditions ….. the difference between direct dmg is 100%. that is carrion deals 100% MORE than dire. guess power isnt as wasted a stat as you claim. now if we dothe math …which i wont bc its 2am now…but i can tommorow if u like. the extra toughness …few hundred or w.e. it is…. only realistically saves you hundreds of hp? 400? 600? 700? over a 1 v 1 fight i mean. 100% dmg or save 3-4% of your HP during a fight from ever being taken. thats the way it should be looked at. no which ever you choose is truly up to you…. and again i can do the exact math using the toughness formula if you TRULY want to know but if u know how toughness works….its never really worth taking over HP stat. its quite minor. trust me i bought rabid and apothecary just to try it out. wasnt impressed. lost way to much attack and fights take too long and didnt really notice much of an HP change. very experienced thief here so if i couldnt tell the hp % change than its just not a stat i found worth taking. hope u found this informative

i also don’t kno the exact numbers right now but it helps with the food! also dire gives u health and toughness with condi dmg so ur just giving ur self more time in a fight to let the condi’s do there job against tanky high health classes

people that drop condis fast or have -% can be tough or a draw for dire. You do 100% more dmg at least….using carrion over dire. it really adds up. and extra 500-600 dmg per unload is much better than extra toughness which drops about 30 hp per hit incoming :P

There isnt a single build type out there that I struggle with while using dire. I’m sorry, but your direct damage is lackluster with carrion. Period. 30hp per hit? Quit using made up numbers as a source of validity.

point taken. so why use dire then ? lol if you dont struggle…why so much defense? you have so much defense you need to drop dmg for more? eh ?

you cannot possibly be serious…..

quite. why lose the offensive dmg on up to 6 people when you are only saving minute amounts of dmg? seriously. answer that. its ok if u prefer the minute amount of dmg saving vs dealing ALOT more outgoing…. i prefer doign more dmg bc im content with the amount of toughness i already ahve for that build.

Fade.7658:

The Dire vs. Carrion argument really boils down to your playstyle and number of opponents. I’ve found Carrion is a little better in a 1 on 1, and Dire works better against 2 or more opponents.

Edit: I run 3044 Armor, which equates to 39.68% reduction in damage. That results in a bit more than 30 per hit, especially if it’s a special attack like backstab.

ummm how much dmg reduction is the difference of power from dire to carrion. im guessing about 30 per hit. guessing. could be far off i dont know. havent played with the formula since like march.

tell me how much 718 is. i just added up full carrion on me. thats what i have. dire has 0 power. but lets now look at dire. full dire which gives toughness instead of power…. so 718 toughness

very little difference….. not worth losing double your direct dmg from CND and SNEAK ATTACK and AUTO ATTACK

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

irishking.8956:

Travlane.5948:

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

p/d with the rights runes and sigils is an amazing build to play. its easy but hard to master/play well in a competitive setting.

P/D P/D Sigil of Energy on Pistols. Sigil of Corruption. Sigil of Agony.

10 0 30 0 30

Mug
Cloaked in Shadow, Shadows Embrace, Shadow’s Rejuvenation
Long Reach, Ricochet/Bountiful Theft, Sleight of Hand

2 Krait 2 Centaur 2 Afflicted (runes) or 6 Torment runes

Full carrion armor and full carrion weapons.

Hide in Shadow
Scorpion Wire/Shadow Step/Caltrops (depends on situation)
Blinding Powder
Shadows refuge
Daggerstorm/Thieves Guild

Rock n Roll have fun! this build can beat anything including d/p and pesky warrior guard builds. high healing is important to keep up that poison so make sure those steals hit and not get blocked/dodged. torment on melee…its pretty strait forward. you average 6 stuns a minute…not as high as a warrior but time it forheals andbig moves.

IMO carrion isnt as useful now that dire is available since power doesn’t scale your condi damage. Better off having higher armor because the direct damage is more or less laughable.

dire is better defense. but the defense is already superb. dont need more. need power for poison dmg. and direct dmg. some classes have -65% condi removal time so youneed to have 1100 dmg on sneak attacks etc. it really adds up! even burst thieves dont make me fret. takes 3-4 good crit backstabs to take down this build.

Power doesn’t make poison damage any better. Might is the only thing that effects your condi damage that also adds power. Power is a wasted stat. Most dont run -65% condi duration and thats limited to certain classes/builds. Toughness on the other hand is absolutely not a wasted stat.

went in with testing conditions ….. the difference between direct dmg is 100%. that is carrion deals 100% MORE than dire. guess power isnt as wasted a stat as you claim. now if we dothe math …which i wont bc its 2am now…but i can tommorow if u like. the extra toughness …few hundred or w.e. it is…. only realistically saves you hundreds of hp? 400? 600? 700? over a 1 v 1 fight i mean. 100% dmg or save 3-4% of your HP during a fight from ever being taken. thats the way it should be looked at. no which ever you choose is truly up to you…. and again i can do the exact math using the toughness formula if you TRULY want to know but if u know how toughness works….its never really worth taking over HP stat. its quite minor. trust me i bought rabid and apothecary just to try it out. wasnt impressed. lost way to much attack and fights take too long and didnt really notice much of an HP change. very experienced thief here so if i couldnt tell the hp % change than its just not a stat i found worth taking. hope u found this informative

i also don’t kno the exact numbers right now but it helps with the food! also dire gives u health and toughness with condi dmg so ur just giving ur self more time in a fight to let the condi’s do there job against tanky high health classes

people that drop condis fast or have -% can be tough or a draw for dire. You do 100% more dmg at least….using carrion over dire. it really adds up. and extra 500-600 dmg per unload is much better than extra toughness which drops about 30 hp per hit incoming :P

There isnt a single build type out there that I struggle with while using dire. I’m sorry, but your direct damage is lackluster with carrion. Period. 30hp per hit? Quit using made up numbers as a source of validity.

point taken. so why use dire then ? lol if you dont struggle…why so much defense? you have so much defense you need to drop dmg for more? eh ?

so they go from OP to unusable? :P if its 30 secs….it better add 8 stacks.

even so its why power is important.

frans.8092:

Travlane.5948:

right. but dire runes? u mean gear i think right? dire issuch a hit to your power. its basically cutting direct dmg in half or more. …

Sneak Attack is doing most of the damage with bleeds. Power will fuel C&D’s direct damage (which incidentally is used almost as often as Sneak Attack) so you’ll have to weigh that against the extra toughness.

Still, P/D works with Power-Crit in PvE – at least for playing around with the playstyle – so maybe a Power/Condi build works in PvE. Would at least give a decent Cluster Bomb.

right. between CND and SNEAK ATTACK there is an extra 1200 dmg roughly. i cant see trading 1200 dmg every 5 seconds for -30 dmg from opponents incoming per hit. just doesnt seem worth it to me when defense is already super high.

irishking.8956:

Travlane.5948:

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

p/d with the rights runes and sigils is an amazing build to play. its easy but hard to master/play well in a competitive setting.

P/D P/D Sigil of Energy on Pistols. Sigil of Corruption. Sigil of Agony.

10 0 30 0 30

Mug
Cloaked in Shadow, Shadows Embrace, Shadow’s Rejuvenation
Long Reach, Ricochet/Bountiful Theft, Sleight of Hand

2 Krait 2 Centaur 2 Afflicted (runes) or 6 Torment runes

Full carrion armor and full carrion weapons.

Hide in Shadow
Scorpion Wire/Shadow Step/Caltrops (depends on situation)
Blinding Powder
Shadows refuge
Daggerstorm/Thieves Guild

Rock n Roll have fun! this build can beat anything including d/p and pesky warrior guard builds. high healing is important to keep up that poison so make sure those steals hit and not get blocked/dodged. torment on melee…its pretty strait forward. you average 6 stuns a minute…not as high as a warrior but time it forheals andbig moves.

IMO carrion isnt as useful now that dire is available since power doesn’t scale your condi damage. Better off having higher armor because the direct damage is more or less laughable.

dire is better defense. but the defense is already superb. dont need more. need power for poison dmg. and direct dmg. some classes have -65% condi removal time so youneed to have 1100 dmg on sneak attacks etc. it really adds up! even burst thieves dont make me fret. takes 3-4 good crit backstabs to take down this build.

Power doesn’t make poison damage any better. Might is the only thing that effects your condi damage that also adds power. Power is a wasted stat. Most dont run -65% condi duration and thats limited to certain classes/builds. Toughness on the other hand is absolutely not a wasted stat.

went in with testing conditions ….. the difference between direct dmg is 100%. that is carrion deals 100% MORE than dire. guess power isnt as wasted a stat as you claim. now if we dothe math …which i wont bc its 2am now…but i can tommorow if u like. the extra toughness …few hundred or w.e. it is…. only realistically saves you hundreds of hp? 400? 600? 700? over a 1 v 1 fight i mean. 100% dmg or save 3-4% of your HP during a fight from ever being taken. thats the way it should be looked at. no which ever you choose is truly up to you…. and again i can do the exact math using the toughness formula if you TRULY want to know but if u know how toughness works….its never really worth taking over HP stat. its quite minor. trust me i bought rabid and apothecary just to try it out. wasnt impressed. lost way to much attack and fights take too long and didnt really notice much of an HP change. very experienced thief here so if i couldnt tell the hp % change than its just not a stat i found worth taking. hope u found this informative

i also don’t kno the exact numbers right now but it helps with the food! also dire gives u health and toughness with condi dmg so ur just giving ur self more time in a fight to let the condi’s do there job against tanky high health classes

people that drop condis fast or have -% can be tough or a draw for dire. You do 100% more dmg at least….using carrion over dire. it really adds up. and extra 500-600 dmg per unload is much better than extra toughness which drops about 30 hp per hit incoming :P

where can we see a list of all this? new runes etc.

daendur. only 2 traits were guessed on from above. the rest are accurate. andthe ones that WERE guessed on were close to realistic and doesnt matter bc they are even number hit on both

Maesk.8753:

Travlane.5948:

Maesk.8753:

Travlane.5948:

Maesk.8753:

insaneseagull.7063:

Mesmer,I’m just as squishy or even as squishy as you guys It just really bugs me that he did it 6 times, 6 kittening times. @Travlane,I can’t walk through AOE either,I can’t take as many as 2-3 hits either,I don’t have high armor or high toughness or high HP. (No 2nd weapon set? BS.)

I feel your pain. And I play a thief, it happens to me a lot. You’ll fight a thief, get them low and they’ll run to reset.
Unfortunately there’s not much you can do. :c

stun. push. pull. stone. knock back. daze. every class has something. thing is …these arent worth taking unless you are roaming or 1v1ing…. wait what? lol yes that means that 1v1/roaming arent a real part of this game. in the sense of scoring/looting tactical points or attacks. its all group play mostly.

Not sure what you’re trying to imply??? Or even what you meant by your post?

any of those skills can stop a thief from using stealth to reset a fight. theres only 2 reall ways a thief will stealth …. reset…..and re attack. thats using shadow refuge (which is a free chance to do thousands of FREE DAMAGE) and if he uses blackpowder and heartseeker combo to enter stealth (another chance to mess him up/do dmg). either way shadow refuge is on a 1 min timer and keeps the thief still for 4 seconds while black powder shot also keeps him still for 4 seconds he must keep doing it every 6 seconds or so to keep stealthed. all you have to do is run away rather than wait like a $#(@$ . when u see a thief stand still…. one of a few things is about to happen. black powder shot to heartseeker…….shadow refuge….or something like heartseeker. stun…pull…knockback….leap….daze. something to stop them. if u stun a thief after he uses blackpowder shot. hes in DEEP. you just wasted most of his initiative he had left and MAY only get one HS for a 1.5 sec stealth. useless for 9 initiative and no dmg or real heal or stealth uptime and minus alot of init he would have gained back.

Im completely aware of how to stop a thief stealthing, but when thieves reset with SR and you’re not running any/much AOE or any knock backs there’s not much you can do.

Its just annoying is all.

and if thief doesnt run defensive skills he cant fight anythign larger than 3 v 3. so its not only on one side but both that have these problems to deal with. youhave to pick a playstyle and know that it has disadvantages. unless you want a “beat all”?

Sanduskel.1850:

Travlane.5948:

THEIF HAS NEVER HAD ANY BUFFS ……. that didnt have a nerf to go along with it that still made it overall a WORSE weapon/trait/skills/utility. PERIOD. you name one and ill eat my shoe

steal? srry mug got nerfed to oblivion . -6k dmg doesnt really account for -10 secs

Fs/Ls? srry but nerf on auto attack and tactical strike and LS to 1 boon..doesnt cover it

shadow trap? lol….thats all i;ll say. LOL LAWL ROFLMAO AHHAHAH fun to useless

can go on for days. all thief class gets is nerfed. we suck at everythign but still hang in there on 1 v 1’ing.

punch us in the face and tell us it gives us character. sorry but the “buffs” arent really buffs…they just maket he nerfs hurt a lil less. is this where we say thanks? …… nah probably goodbye. have to wait til dec 10th. game keeps getting dumbed down. i wonder if the casual players buy more gems or harder players. hmmm they cater to the casuals who QQ bc they have L2P issues…… so it must be them? some how doesnt make sense tho.

Well thieves aren’t for everyone, you know. Either work harder or play another class.

i dont mind hard work. but thieves are def underwhelming under the concept of guild wars. also i have to say that the hard work is much more rewarding than using a class like warrior which is 8 year old friendly. nothing against warrior players but its true. the real problem is that nerfs have no ending in sight. they havent slowed down and dare i say have been steadily increasing over the past year. its weird if u think about it. the kinds of changes have been getting more and MORE dramatic as time has passed. some hurt more than others in the past but still…they never would have messed with base concepts like init regen before. this is getting crazy and overly dumbed down, not to mention ruining the class even more.

DeceiverX.8361:

Regarding the discussion about the change to Infusion of Shadows…

What exactly am I missing here? Spend 6 to regain 2 is the current situation… and the notes dictate that you gain initiative now only when you enter stealth versus using a skill that simply would put you in stealth.

Okay, I get that, but then why are people complaining? If you spam CnD, you net loss 4, and if you bust out tons of stealth skills whille you’re revealed in order to gain initiative, you end up blowing cooldowns for seemingly no reason.

Granted, I do not play D/P thief, however I see no problems with this for D/D or anyone simply running a build based on chaining stealth post-reveal. Seeing as I don’t play perma-stealth just fine (even with P/P alternative), why is this such a big deal?

I totally disagree with a lot of the other changes made, such as Shadow Return’s cast time, but I don’t quite get the QQ about making the class non-viable with this change. Thief isn’t in the best spot, but even then it can excel without perma-stealth builds, and I see no real issues changing the skill to only go into effect when simply entering stealth.

Anyone mind to explain the reasoning?

the problem was D/P abusing it with 5 2 2 2 combo. the problem we have is we still want our init from using CND then using hide in shadows. so now it makes more sense to lose stealth and reenter with hide in shadows (makes us more vulnerable to attacks and showslocation) same with blinding powder shadow refuge and etc. i think the best way to do this make it so that ONLY WEAPON SKILLS gain init once to enter stealth….rather than utilities too. u know what i mean?

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

p/d with the rights runes and sigils is an amazing build to play. its easy but hard to master/play well in a competitive setting.

P/D P/D Sigil of Energy on Pistols. Sigil of Corruption. Sigil of Agony.

10 0 30 0 30

Mug
Cloaked in Shadow, Shadows Embrace, Shadow’s Rejuvenation
Long Reach, Ricochet/Bountiful Theft, Sleight of Hand

2 Krait 2 Centaur 2 Afflicted (runes) or 6 Torment runes

Full carrion armor and full carrion weapons.

Hide in Shadow
Scorpion Wire/Shadow Step/Caltrops (depends on situation)
Blinding Powder
Shadows refuge
Daggerstorm/Thieves Guild

Rock n Roll have fun! this build can beat anything including d/p and pesky warrior guard builds. high healing is important to keep up that poison so make sure those steals hit and not get blocked/dodged. torment on melee…its pretty strait forward. you average 6 stuns a minute…not as high as a warrior but time it forheals andbig moves.

IMO carrion isnt as useful now that dire is available since power doesn’t scale your condi damage. Better off having higher armor because the direct damage is more or less laughable.

dire is better defense. but the defense is already superb. dont need more. need power for poison dmg. and direct dmg. some classes have -65% condi removal time so youneed to have 1100 dmg on sneak attacks etc. it really adds up! even burst thieves dont make me fret. takes 3-4 good crit backstabs to take down this build.

Power doesn’t make poison damage any better. Might is the only thing that effects your condi damage that also adds power. Power is a wasted stat. Most dont run -65% condi duration and thats limited to certain classes/builds. Toughness on the other hand is absolutely not a wasted stat.

went in with testing conditions ….. the difference between direct dmg is 100%. that is carrion deals 100% MORE than dire. guess power isnt as wasted a stat as you claim. now if we dothe math …which i wont bc its 2am now…but i can tommorow if u like. the extra toughness …few hundred or w.e. it is…. only realistically saves you hundreds of hp? 400? 600? 700? over a 1 v 1 fight i mean. 100% dmg or save 3-4% of your HP during a fight from ever being taken. thats the way it should be looked at. no which ever you choose is truly up to you…. and again i can do the exact math using the toughness formula if you TRULY want to know but if u know how toughness works….its never really worth taking over HP stat. its quite minor. trust me i bought rabid and apothecary just to try it out. wasnt impressed. lost way to much attack and fights take too long and didnt really notice much of an HP change. very experienced thief here so if i couldnt tell the hp % change than its just not a stat i found worth taking. hope u found this informative

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

p/d with the rights runes and sigils is an amazing build to play. its easy but hard to master/play well in a competitive setting.

P/D P/D Sigil of Energy on Pistols. Sigil of Corruption. Sigil of Agony.

10 0 30 0 30

Mug
Cloaked in Shadow, Shadows Embrace, Shadow’s Rejuvenation
Long Reach, Ricochet/Bountiful Theft, Sleight of Hand

2 Krait 2 Centaur 2 Afflicted (runes) or 6 Torment runes

Full carrion armor and full carrion weapons.

Hide in Shadow
Scorpion Wire/Shadow Step/Caltrops (depends on situation)
Blinding Powder
Shadows refuge
Daggerstorm/Thieves Guild

Rock n Roll have fun! this build can beat anything including d/p and pesky warrior guard builds. high healing is important to keep up that poison so make sure those steals hit and not get blocked/dodged. torment on melee…its pretty strait forward. you average 6 stuns a minute…not as high as a warrior but time it forheals andbig moves.

IMO carrion isnt as useful now that dire is available since power doesn’t scale your condi damage. Better off having higher armor because the direct damage is more or less laughable.

dire is better defense. but the defense is already superb. dont need more. need power for poison dmg. and direct dmg. some classes have -65% condi removal time so youneed to have 1100 dmg on sneak attacks etc. it really adds up! even burst thieves dont make me fret. takes 3-4 good crit backstabs to take down this build.

Power doesn’t make poison damage any better. Might is the only thing that effects your condi damage that also adds power. Power is a wasted stat. Most dont run -65% condi duration and thats limited to certain classes/builds. Toughness on the other hand is absolutely not a wasted stat.

yeah was writing 2 threads at same time. i mean direct dmg bc too much defense is no good. theres already a defense heavy setup with the traits alone. you need direct dmg to mix in with the condi bc alot of heavies out there run minus condi time. its important. power is MUCH more important than toughnesson armor here. you use about 7-12 sneak attacks per duel. thats about the difference of 4500 – 7500 damage you lose to gain extra toughness? :P eh….. dont be a 1 trick pony. seriously ive run both. dire is no good. that extra dmg makes the world of difference. you can run 0 toughness if u like. the real defense is in the blinds and evades. i run double evades and lots of blinds. also in gap creaters and stealth. if you are in tpvp and wvw run ricochet which makes power even more important.

lets say 80% of your dmg is from conditions. 20 % is from direct dmg with my build.

your build is 90% and 10%. and you save yourself about 1000 hp in a fight with the extra toughness in your build using dire.

many thousands in extra dmg OR 1k extra HP saved? hrm…since i really dont go below 40% in MOST of my fights….. id say the dmg is most important and can put more pressure on heavier fighters to play slightly more defensive and blow that heal early…then….FWAP! stunned….and good game. pressure is vital.

Zacchary.6183:

Sanduskel.1850:

swinsk.6410:

Blah blah, I hate arenanet and their balance of thief.

What? Sword/Dagger has tons of evades/jukes and kills people? NERF INTO OBLIVION!
What? D/P has lots of stealth allowing removal of condis and healing? NERF INTO OBLIVION!
What? Dancing Dagger has amazing dps and kills people? NERF INTO OBLIVION!
What? Thieves stealth every 3s? NERF TO 4s!

We have never received a “real” buff to this class ever and if those kittens at arenanet think increased init regen is such a huge buff to cover all the incredibly huge nerfs this patch they are on some serious drugs.

I’m having fun until dec 10 on thief, after that, bye bye gw2 probably.

I am sorry that you seem to be struggling with your thief. Spec something other than D/P. I prefer D/D but others will do. Why don’t you wait to see the patch results vs insulting anet?

d/d conditions isn’t that great.

i agree. i took a several weeks break about 2 weeks ago and i came back and noticed that deathblossom was all funked up. i mean it seems really slow reactive and feels like it has a delay betweenthem. i dont think its playable in a competitive fashion anymore.

THEIF HAS NEVER HAD ANY BUFFS ……. that didnt have a nerf to go along with it that still made it overall a WORSE weapon/trait/skills/utility. PERIOD. you name one and ill eat my shoe

steal? srry mug got nerfed to oblivion . -6k dmg doesnt really account for -10 secs

Fs/Ls? srry but nerf on auto attack and tactical strike and LS to 1 boon..doesnt cover it

shadow trap? lol….thats all i;ll say. LOL LAWL ROFLMAO AHHAHAH fun to useless

can go on for days. all thief class gets is nerfed. we suck at everythign but still hang in there on 1 v 1’ing.

punch us in the face and tell us it gives us character. sorry but the “buffs” arent really buffs…they just maket he nerfs hurt a lil less. is this where we say thanks? …… nah probably goodbye. have to wait til dec 10th. game keeps getting dumbed down. i wonder if the casual players buy more gems or harder players. hmmm they cater to the casuals who QQ bc they have L2P issues…… so it must be them? some how doesnt make sense tho.

irishking.8956:

Travlane.5948:

irishking.8956:

Ive found that going with Dire runes and getting ur duration from food alone (which i get 40-50%) is enough to keep guardians down; longer fight but with flawless game play u always win in the end. With warriors ur gonna need a lot of poison because they shed it off like a boss! You need it to stop there healing signet or else u will lose against an experienced warrior in the long run.

right. but dire runes? u mean gear i think right? dire issuch a hit to your power. its basically cutting direct dmg in half or more. thats many thousands of HP per duel. you need more than bleeds to win a fight against a good player. i run carrion. between by blinds , invis , healing , condi removal, and +300 toughness and healing power, and 19k hp, do you really need to drop power on your gear to get extra toughness?

True i have thought about this for a while now and i have not tried carrion yet. With the points into toughness it does help with the food i use (Potent Master tuning crystals condi dmg = to 6% toughness and condi dmg = to 4% vit) because i figure if ur gonna go condi might as well go all in lol. Im running with 2,064 condi dmg thats with 25 stacks from sigil of corruption and 40% duration from veggie pizza. The toughness helps though especially when u run into a group of ele’s and warriors all trying to kill you with aoe and burning everywhere lol

P.S. I would have gone for more condi duration but everyone runes with set ups to shed them like nothing thing so i also took that into account.

ive run into these -% condi players. annoying but i still win. i have about 900-1200 direct dmg on sneak attack. its not much and even if the bleeds only last 4 secs thats still 3500 total dmg between both or whatever. it really adds up. especially between auto attacks and shadow strike torment…. there are so many condis on a person that they just cant target them all. in the first 1 second of combat…my opponent has this on him…

IN THIS ORDER——-

poison 1 stack (20 seconds or so)
stun 1.25 seconds
vulnerability 3 stacks
blindness 1 stack
bleeding 7 stacks
torment 2 stacks

i run about 90% additional condition time and have about 4 initiative left after this combo hits from 1500 range away and in only about 1 second. after that a few auto attacks…dodges…..if he gets too close shadow strike again or body shot for an ADDITIONAL condition (immobilize)

now you say the 2 damaging conditions are added last so they will get removed first. well thats fine bc they are also the easiest to add back on …. Hide in shadows, shadow refuge, blinding powder, scorp wire etc. its the POISON that you really want to keep on the enemy. i have sleight of hand for extra coodlown….heals with mug…dmg with mug… and most importantly 100% uptime on poison every 20 secs renewed if they dont remove it. its alot to keep up with for an opponent.

Maesk.8753:

Travlane.5948:

Maesk.8753:

insaneseagull.7063:

Mesmer,I’m just as squishy or even as squishy as you guys It just really bugs me that he did it 6 times, 6 kittening times. @Travlane,I can’t walk through AOE either,I can’t take as many as 2-3 hits either,I don’t have high armor or high toughness or high HP. (No 2nd weapon set? BS.)

I feel your pain. And I play a thief, it happens to me a lot. You’ll fight a thief, get them low and they’ll run to reset.
Unfortunately there’s not much you can do. :c

stun. push. pull. stone. knock back. daze. every class has something. thing is …these arent worth taking unless you are roaming or 1v1ing…. wait what? lol yes that means that 1v1/roaming arent a real part of this game. in the sense of scoring/looting tactical points or attacks. its all group play mostly.

Not sure what you’re trying to imply??? Or even what you meant by your post?

any of those skills can stop a thief from using stealth to reset a fight. theres only 2 reall ways a thief will stealth …. reset…..and re attack. thats using shadow refuge (which is a free chance to do thousands of FREE DAMAGE) and if he uses blackpowder and heartseeker combo to enter stealth (another chance to mess him up/do dmg). either way shadow refuge is on a 1 min timer and keeps the thief still for 4 seconds while black powder shot also keeps him still for 4 seconds he must keep doing it every 6 seconds or so to keep stealthed. all you have to do is run away rather than wait like a $#(@$ . when u see a thief stand still…. one of a few things is about to happen. black powder shot to heartseeker…….shadow refuge….or something like heartseeker. stun…pull…knockback….leap….daze. something to stop them. if u stun a thief after he uses blackpowder shot. hes in DEEP. you just wasted most of his initiative he had left and MAY only get one HS for a 1.5 sec stealth. useless for 9 initiative and no dmg or real heal or stealth uptime and minus alot of init he would have gained back.

yeah…… PVE is the ONLY time where the opportunist really can POTENTIALLY give you 1 init per second. in wvw id say its more like 1 init per 5 seconds as is. we are not attacking in wvw all the time. and our shortbow alone has about 2-3 seconds (depends on distance) between first arrow hitting and the 2nd arrow hitting the same target. pfft. its sooo slooow. 1 sec internal cooldown is fine.

would rather see 0 init given on signets and have them give a diff effect

evilapprentice.6379:

Travlane.5948:

Zero Day.2594:

Travlane.5948:

salty. if you think regen is better than init traits/skills than you really should think a lil harder. even if you had 1.5 init per second its not as useful as having initiative gain skills/traits bc u need them on command to finish enemies or escape or to go stealthed. having initiative on command is a NECCESSITY for thief. not a luxury.

Isn’t that one of their reasons for nerfing, the fact that it’s a “necessity” to be using skills/traits that give init. You know if they nerf them so much that it’s relatively useless to take those skills/traits… then we don’t have to, and that promotes build diversity! So, if any of our skills/trait’s become another necessity, that’s when they become targets for a nerf (buffing/fixing other skills/traits? lol good one)…

u missed the point. its a neccesity bc we need to have a FAST gain. not a fast regen. for emergencies and finishing. low hp low armor no block no invuln no protection no aegis …. its a neccessity. this init nerf is making it worse. its taking the control from the players and making it passive not to mention for an overall loss.

The problem is they think they’ve increased thief survivability.

If we pretend thief is survivable, then the new init changes make sense. You don’t blow all your initiative at the start of the fight, you whittle your opponent down, and burst them at the end, with all this lovely initiative you’ve got from the increased regen and from not having to go nuts spending init throughout the fight.

Unfortunately, Anets thoughts on “Survivable thief” is hard to catch and assassins reward, nerfing vigor uptime, and ruining sword on the competitive level.

i get what you are saying and agree. but making regen higher and bursts of init lower…. it hurts our survivability. how? well lets see… if ur low on init and NEED MORE INIT NOW….not in 6 seconds later….. skills you would use….are…

Cloak and Dagger (blinds heals removes condis and stealths)
Disabling shot (evades and creates space)
Shadow Strike ( torment to keep them still and creates 600 gap)
Black Powder Shot (AOE blind to give u a chance to think/heal/defend)
FS/LS (obvious dodging)
Inf Return (removes condi and makes gap)
head shot (stuns a heal or w.e. you need)
body shot (immobs 1-2 secs)
Inf Arrow (900 gap giver)

Maesk.8753:

insaneseagull.7063:

Mesmer,I’m just as squishy or even as squishy as you guys It just really bugs me that he did it 6 times, 6 kittening times. @Travlane,I can’t walk through AOE either,I can’t take as many as 2-3 hits either,I don’t have high armor or high toughness or high HP. (No 2nd weapon set? BS.)

I feel your pain. And I play a thief, it happens to me a lot. You’ll fight a thief, get them low and they’ll run to reset.
Unfortunately there’s not much you can do. :c

stun. push. pull. stone. knock back. daze. every class has something. thing is …these arent worth taking unless you are roaming or 1v1ing…. wait what? lol yes that means that 1v1/roaming arent a real part of this game. in the sense of scoring/looting tactical points or attacks. its all group play mostly.

pantsforbirds.9032:

Travlane.5948:

Narcarsis.5739:

Use Ogre runes. Rock dog will keep the other player in combat. If you do it properly you can stealth out, reset, and reenter before they get ooc as well. Sneaky sneaky.

pets keep you in combat. unless theres a bug i dnot know about.

I’m not sure the rock dog is a pet?

not sure ill test tommorow. i know my summons do it. fire ele summon. ogre pet summon. etc.n they keep me in combat

Narcarsis.5739:

Use Ogre runes. Rock dog will keep the other player in combat. If you do it properly you can stealth out, reset, and reenter before they get ooc as well. Sneaky sneaky.

pets keep you in combat. unless theres a bug i dnot know about.

memsers have alot of hp more and better defense….. but that aside….. clones/phantasms do 75% of the dmg…… we could complain that we want more dmg control from the AI to player on your side. i mean good mesmers really just have to train on dodging and tricking. their copies do most the work. mesmers go invis all the time and hide :P they are pretty classic for it. most classes use some sort of baiting/running in their fights. resetting is more warrior and thief style…but thieves really dont have a choice. u should try play thief. highest skill threshhold in game. go ahead and then you will notice the price you pay for even 1 mistake.

Oghier.7419:

Narcarsis.5739:

If you find yourself to be a decent player P/D with full berserker is a pretty strong set and fun to play. Also means you don’t have to find new gear. I hit people for about 6-7k on Shadow Strike 2.

Pew pew (Use a super pistol for max fun).

Again though, it’s pretty unforgiving depending on the traits you run.

But.. Pistol/* is mostly condition damage. Zerk gear has none. That really works?

it can but not super competitive. shadow strike is a hard hitter but torment is almost useless other than a distraction for the opponent

irishking.8956:

Ive found that going with Dire runes and getting ur duration from food alone (which i get 40-50%) is enough to keep guardians down; longer fight but with flawless game play u always win in the end. With warriors ur gonna need a lot of poison because they shed it off like a boss! You need it to stop there healing signet or else u will lose against an experienced warrior in the long run.

right. but dire runes? u mean gear i think right? dire issuch a hit to your power. its basically cutting direct dmg in half or more. thats many thousands of HP per duel. you need more than bleeds to win a fight against a good player. i run carrion. between by blinds , invis , healing , condi removal, and +300 toughness and healing power, and 19k hp, do you really need to drop power on your gear to get extra toughness?

Oghier.7419:

Travlane.5948:

i compared what is TAKEN with what is GIVEN to us by anet. jon peters said it was a buff and that other skills/traits were a “small change” so i wanted to point out quite the contrary.

I think your comparison doesn’t stand up to how most specs actually play. We’re not fighting a stationary target dummy, stealthing and hitting regen signets every single cooldown. The objective of thief play is to not to maximize initiative regeneration, but to kill things and take their stuff. The initiative is a tool, not the actual goal.

When I look at the specs I run (usually D/D, sometimes S/D and occasionally P/D condition build), every one of these will have slightly more initiative after 12/10 than now. Only D/P permastealth builds really take an initiative hit. Well, P/P gets nerfed too, but that’s just beating a dead horse at this point.

p/d and d/d bleeds will. not the others.

and yes i think the example i gave is quite realistic. even if u dont i used the same numbers hits targets blah blah blah for each. so go ahead and cut each in half it doesnt matter. the before is still more init than after the dec 10th patch. no matter how you look at it (unless you are d/p or d/d bleeds) its a pretty big nerf.

If you think this isnt a nerf…than do the math and pretend you have 0 init gain but have 1.25 initiative per second regen. thats about the trade off if u dropped all init gain traits. now having 1.25 init per sec (lets pretend its equal) is dangerous bc if you usetoo much initiative you still have to wait. you have no way of boosting extra initiativewhen you need it. you need to boost init on command bc certain occaisons call for it. if you have 1.25 int per sec regen and no boost…u will win VERY VERY few fights. this turns a thief into a very robotic character where you know 1 big attack is coming every 6-7 seconds and after that you know he has to wait bc he cant go low on init. taking the control away from a thief is bad news for the players andclass.

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

regardless p/d is still inefficiant when up against d/p, even with the nerf, only way you can get a hit in is if you use cnd and get a hit off when hes done using his BP(skill 5), even then your still crappy and theyll just remove your conditions…again by popping outta stealth. if they want to perma stealth theyd be eating initiative….so lets hope p/d is getting a buff by making others get a nerf…i still say venomshare builds should give not only counters of our venoms to others, but copy our condition based stats + condition duration to the people we gave em to…i mean why kill with my venoms and when i give MY venoms to an ally should they only make what they hit SNEEZE!?

not true. i win about 85% of all p/d vs d/p matches excluding draws from the hiding type.

ill agree if u r talking about that weak cookie cutter build you see all over. but real p/d players are much better than that trash

Carob.6789:

I run a 30/10/30/0/0 full rabid set and lyssa runes. I have p/d (giver) in both sets with sigil of doom, sigil of ice and sigil of corruption. With rare veggie pizza i have +100 condition duration.

i like 100% condition duration. but i went more for condition dmg.

Why? well think about this. if you ahve 100% condition time. so lets say each bleed is 10 secs and now is 20 secs with your gear. the opponent has -90% condition time. so you figure eh its only 11 secs now right?….. nope. its 2 secs of condition time. the – % is always twice as strong as the + % due to the – being applied AFTER. i think the -% should be applied first as it almost entirely negates the +% AND does its normal job as well.

Kaon.7192:

These P/D condi attrition builds will probably become the new most hated Thief build post Dec 10 (a spot that used to belong to D/P permastealth).

They’re easier to play and even more frustrating to play against because they slowly outlast you from range rather than relying on melee bursts. And when played well they’re just as difficult to kill.

easier to play yes. harder to master i think. without having the right version and tactics you wont do enough dmg for many warriors/guards. and using the 2 stuns i run in my build are VERY important as they are the true killers.

Mordecai.6318:

Travlane.5948:

p/d with the rights runes and sigils is an amazing build to play. its easy but hard to master/play well in a competitive setting.

P/D P/D Sigil of Energy on Pistols. Sigil of Corruption. Sigil of Agony.

10 0 30 0 30

Mug
Cloaked in Shadow, Shadows Embrace, Shadow’s Rejuvenation
Long Reach, Ricochet/Bountiful Theft, Sleight of Hand

2 Krait 2 Centaur 2 Afflicted (runes) or 6 Torment runes

Full carrion armor and full carrion weapons.

Hide in Shadow
Scorpion Wire/Shadow Step/Caltrops (depends on situation)
Blinding Powder
Shadows refuge
Daggerstorm/Thieves Guild

Rock n Roll have fun! this build can beat anything including d/p and pesky warrior guard builds. high healing is important to keep up that poison so make sure those steals hit and not get blocked/dodged. torment on melee…its pretty strait forward. you average 6 stuns a minute…not as high as a warrior but time it forheals andbig moves.

IMO carrion isnt as useful now that dire is available since power doesn’t scale your condi damage. Better off having higher armor because the direct damage is more or less laughable.

dire is better defense. but the defense is already superb. dont need more. need power for poison dmg. and direct dmg. some classes have -65% condi removal time so youneed to have 1100 dmg on sneak attacks etc. it really adds up! even burst thieves dont make me fret. takes 3-4 good crit backstabs to take down this build.

+1 for VJ. warriors DO do it also. what class are you insane?

what IS the point…..

(plz excuse my answer if you dont like it but its the only one there is)

You QQ’ers are the ones that get us nerfed for L2P problems and complain about things like this. we thieves do not have much of a choice. 1 v 1 is all we have left. tpvp/spvp/wvw/dungeons/bosses and even pve we arent really welcome in groups.

Lets keep this in persective….months ago QQ’ers complain about damage and skills and abilities. now its that we run away? would u like us to play dead? we cant really take dmg or fight in anything but small groups. no we dont feel pride in running. do you feel pride in crying to anet that you dont know how to play a beginners class?

thieves cant walk thru AOE, or be in big fights, or do bosses, or take more than 2-3 hits, or be able to fight PVE without using a heal. we dont block or use protection or have aegis or pop invulnerability and we dont have high armor and high hp and high toughness or a 2nd weaponset. the one few small things we have is gap closers, stealth, 2nd highest dmg (5th/6th if we count single target and multiple targets), and the ability to use the same attack multiple times if the time calls for it. noting in that list keeps us alive. stealthhelps us attack or get away. we still recieve dmg tho. perhaps ask anet to buff thieves to be able to stay in combat. thieves dont like resetting. we dont like HAVING to go stealth every 3-4 secs. we would rather use stealth for big attacks and be fancy dodging/evading and fun attacks. thats what we prefer. but everything gets nerfed.

again keep it in perspective.

Every patch thief gets 5+ more nerfs. and its always atleast 5x the nerfs any other class gets. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm games been out a year. thats alotta nerfs bud

Suggestion:

Make proc on heal balthazar runes of torment runes work at the beginning of withdraw rather than the end or make it so they leave an AOE at the start point and not activate until the end of withdraw.

Incurafy.6329:

Ignore the troll, with the exception of the crap about Anet bias, what Excalibur said is right.

have to agree and disagree here bro. ummm…. the whole bias thing is right. hard to imagine it being an oversight. if u think its not a bias or preferential tuning…what could it be. how is thief bad in every aspect other than 1v1 (which has no real spot/purpose in game) and guardian/warrior is not just good but leading in ALL categories. seems a lil outside the realm of coincidence no?

p/d with the rights runes and sigils is an amazing build to play. its easy but hard to master/play well in a competitive setting.

P/D P/D Sigil of Energy on Pistols. Sigil of Corruption. Sigil of Agony.

10 0 30 0 30

Mug
Cloaked in Shadow, Shadows Embrace, Shadow’s Rejuvenation
Long Reach, Ricochet/Bountiful Theft, Sleight of Hand

2 Krait 2 Centaur 2 Afflicted (runes) or 6 Torment runes

Full carrion armor and full carrion weapons.

Hide in Shadow
Scorpion Wire/Shadow Step/Caltrops (depends on situation)
Blinding Powder
Shadows refuge
Daggerstorm/Thieves Guild

Rock n Roll have fun! this build can beat anything including d/p and pesky warrior guard builds. high healing is important to keep up that poison so make sure those steals hit and not get blocked/dodged. torment on melee…its pretty strait forward. you average 6 stuns a minute…not as high as a warrior but time it forheals andbig moves.

Clumsy.6257:

tattoohead.3217:

LOL warrior as 4th highest and thf as 2nd highest… That was cute. Warrior is in fact indisputably #1 dps in all circumstances and they can pull it off with 3 different specs.

please refer to this video to see why your a moron if you think warrior is highest http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dTmq9GPN3M, please note the 25k HS, 60k CnD+BS, also do you even play pve? even with our insane damage ele still blows us out of the water with fgs

warrior then ele/thief.

im of course going by WVW/SPVP/TPVP