Guild Wars 2

favoritism ? really? interesting as nobody in the developement (in game) plays a thief. unless thats changed. or should i say mains a thief.

yeah cc is game over for thieves. i think it goes without saying that we arent talking 1 v 1. when 3-6 people come up on a 1 guardian they dont go for immobs….they go for highest dmg skills….when you go against an engineer…same thing …..when they roll up on a single thief they do immob/ice/stun/root skills first them move to dmg. there is a reason for this. …. CC is thieves’ worst nightmare.

no cooldown? hows that basharic?

retal doesnt bother my p/d build at all…or engineers for that matter. unless 409 is a power crit build? p/d = 22.5k hp

yeah….considering the net range is about 600…..it also makes heartseeker twice as productive for distance vs init costs.

d/p is a draw or counter. a few phant/clone builds are tough if the p/d player isnt good/patient. any some ele builds too.

d/p is useless in zergs and in anything larger than prolly 4 v 4. . . if small scale combat is so important than yes i suppose d/p is amazing. but for now its only hard to kill in roamin sense and since roaming is really nothing. why would they nerf it? they wont nerf LS bc its the ONLY thing making s/d playable. if u disagree with that tell me how TS is going to do enough dmg to kill ….or the insanely slow auto attack. AA is so slow that is why people go 3 3 3 3 3 bc its just as fast if not sometimes faster and about the same dmg basically so you get evade + boons for using 3 rather than AA. dancing dagger? AHAHHAH nuff said. CnD good but in situationally only. IS? i love this but would rather see it +1 init and hit harder.

Wiser with Age.3714:

I use the Ambush trap on my 2nd PvE Thief. Using it basically gives you 50% of an Elite skill, which is really powerful. Against stationary foes, you can run up and immediately spin your facing 90 degrees. When you drop a trap like that, the trap’s trigger line will go through the stationary mob in front of you and it will immediately summon the NPC pet.

Between a late triggered Ambush trap, a new Ambush trap, and the Thieves Guild elite, it’s possible to run around with a zerg of x4 NPC pets. The extra dps is really nice, they can help tank trash mobs that you’re not attacking, and you’ll be hiding in Black Powder (AoE Blind) fields that are being created from your P/P pets.

bestway is to run thru them AS you are casting it i find.

DanH.5879:

condi thief sux…imo
unless pvp/wvw with p/d

d/d condi is actually good …..but only under 2 conditions. (no pun intended) you ahve to have theright build and play it to perfection. there is a draw match when facing d/p if they are good tho.

Excalibur.9748:

condition damage is pretty gimp, especially for a thief.

d/p cant beat my non invis build thats condi based. there are great builds for condi. melee classes have no chance against my bleed build. 0. :P

theres one part in COF path 2 i think with the shaman where you need to immobilize alot so i use them there. other than that i on a rare occaison use ambush

all stupid ideas. they force us to play non invis in pvp then force us back to invis? god im so sick of my thief if they do this.

DanH.5879:

i want to be able to see the thieves in stealth too !
all they do is spam 2-2-2-2, 3-3-3-3,
or 5-1-1-1-5-1-1-5-1-1
they are like robots/bots !

are there other skills? lol. head shot. 400 dmg for 1/4 sec daze and 4 init? dancing daggers 4 initiative for 600 dmg? both of these are 33% of our attack pool initiative :P dagger auto attack is horrendous…literally . not only this thieves are made to be able to choose which is best for the situation. nobody really spams hs anyway. if they do u should thank them for wasting their intiative. if u low on health and one meets u…then its just bad luck for you. if they get you low on HP then they are low on init. simple as that. you are tired of 5 1 1 5 1 1 or 3 3 3 3 3 or 5 1 2 5 1 2 etc? let me tell you what a guardian or another class does. 5 3 2 4 1 swap 5 4 2 3 1 swap. rins repeat. every class has a rotation :P so whats the difference? there is none other than a thief can make his using 1 attack. even if a guardian used his 2 attack 3 times over then waited 15 secs to do it again….that would help me out when fighting one really to be honest. keep things in perspective too when u dig at a class. thieves are mediocre. if u other guys think stealth is easy mode….. try getting your brains out of the 1 v 1 sense bc 1 v 1 has NO place in this game….yet. laterz

sostronk.8167:

How can you get 17k? I have a full zerker build and can barely hit 10k.

a thief can almsot instantly stack 22 mights and if u kill coyotes before you go out you also have 25 bloodlust. i do that almost everytime i go out as a roamer…regardless of class…

Lenn.6347:

AikijinX.6258:

Lenn.6347:

AikijinX.6258:

Lenn.6347:

Helcor.9527:

15k+ hit using one button push with full zerkers and traited for damage is still over powered for any profession. Theres no logical argument against this.

these are obviously upleveled targets, with garbage armor. those numbers never realistically happen, and stupid threads like these only propagate such stupid rumors.

So basically what you’re telling me is. you don’t know how to play thief? I keep telling people to transfer to kaineng, or be crystal desert or yaks bend. I’ll gladly show the non-believers. As for recording, as i said. My laptop cant handle it.

calling your BS doesn’t have anything to do with my “knowledge or skill” of a fully geared thief of my own that never hits anywhere near that hard except on underleveled, low hp, jello shot builds.

a “normal” bs will hit anywhere from 3-7 depending on the target at 80. 16 on a full fledged, properly geared 80 is physically impossible without rigging the shot; which youve conveniently left your target out of.

dont insult people who call BS just because you have no real proof to back up your kitten thread

I don’t say this often.. Well quite frankly you will be the first I say this to. L2P.

the first sentence of this quote just goes to show how much you lack in the department of intelligence. physically impossible numbers have nothing to do with “skill,” “class knowledge,” or “learning how to play,” and you’d have to be a dolt to think it does.

the fact of the matter is, extremely rigged screenshots without your target, their conditions, your boons, and just a flat out number does not prove:

A. the target wasn’t upleveled
B. a low armor class to begin with
C. max might stacks
D. any form of vulnerability

i’ve been hit by many a number of fully geared thieves, none hitting any higher than 7, i’m one myself, i rarely see over 10, and if i do, it’s on targets that shouldn’t be in wvw to begin with.

your ego is appalling and unsightly, i’d suggest losing it, until you have a reason to have one; rather than just spilling random terminology that still doesnt add up to proper numbers on a real 80 target without rigging the shot.

there ya go buddy thats against a full exotic lvl 80 engineer with a toughness healing condi build i believe. nothing rigged as u will see. magic right? against a non toughness build im doing over 20k. oh not just that i dont have full zerk gear. i run vitality on alot of it . bleh bleh bleh . hot air to shoot this down now? care to try sit there and let me take a hit?

EDIT: (before you say it) yes i do realize hes standign there and i can go make a video of doing the same in a duel….just steal and BV is still game over.

ps to all the thieves. if u run this build u can mow down mesmers FAST lol i challenged a guild mesmer who is rather good in dueling to a fight. i said ill only use auto attack…:) i won so fast but only had 30% hp left. each clone/phant was a 1 hit kill and once those were dead there wasnt much he could do….just auto attack mind you. once CND +HS is good game.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

swinsk.6410:

This is not DAOC and that is exactly how DAOC stealth worked.

I much prefer stealth the way it is now. It’s WAY more engaging and it feels WAY more thief/assassin to me.

This is would be literally useless in spvp and practically kill the class in spvp.

The hell it is. No Thief/Assassin would do what a Thief does in this game. If you feel this is a correct feeling of a Thief, then maybe we should rename the class to “Dodgy Stealthy Spammer”

The hell it would. The ability to delay an entire enemy team with a well-constructed ambush? In it’s current state, Thief is already pretty much useless in sPvP. It’s nothing more than an annoying scavenger. It’d atleast be able to give Thieves some sort of purpose rather than the annoying thing that Mesmers replicate far better.

your insight comes short my friend. you are missing facts and have no idea the implications of your suggestions. with what ur saying u might as well take backstab/TS out of the game. BS already has a successful hit rate of less than 50% …..no with the low speed u can drop that to around 2% considering they will be moving something like 2-3 times faster than you …i mean 33% of what battle speed is? wow :P ouch not just that but it also going to kill all thieves by going stealth just bc they cant move out of reach of opponents attacks. i mean if i was a warrior and see a thief going stealth im going to swing wildly knowing that most of them are going to hit and kill him or if a necro/aoe character just drops aoe theres no chance to get out of the way… cmon man your are waaaaaaaaaaay off base here. learn the class before you clutter up the forums with this garbage. if its not a L2P issue then L2Think intelligently.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Honestly, stealth in it’s current state is dumb. Alot of the people that use it are dumb. The dumb capability allows for dumb usage.

I feel like Thief should take a considerable amount of skill, but be very deadly to compensate, which at the moment, is absolutely the opposite.

Here’s how I believe Stealth/Thief should have been implemented: Stealth on a Thief should be a toggle, not a skill/boon. It should be a permanent stealth switch. However, you would not have the ability to enter stealth in combat, and if you are hit while in stealth, you lose it. They would also have to move at 33% less speed while in stealth. Thieves would still have their escape tools, if not more of them, however their Stealth would be used as you would expect an actual stealth based class to use it.

Thieves would be used for interrupting/annoying/trapping opponents, creating massive ambushes when an enemy player walks into them, but once they lose the element of surprise, they cannot win a sustained fight.

Honestly at the moment, when I see the stealth in this game I can’t compare it to anything else. It’s like Sam Fisher just decided to murder every single person in a level in under 12 seconds. It’s not stealthy at all, nor does it make any sort of sense. It’s just plain stupid, unskillful, and lazy. They made Thief a spamming class, period. I was/am severely disappointed in their ‘ideas’ for it.

Alot of potential was lost, potential for tricks like disguising yourself as an enemy player to gain the element of surprise, or being able to steal an opponent’s rune set for 6-10 seconds.

Anyone else still as disappointed as I am?

your thief vs my thief. since its so easy to play it should be close. ill use a non stealth build or stealth build your choice. nub

style.6173:

Stealth won’t get nerfed. The thief is already an average class at best.

this is accurate. although slightly optimistic. i could be said we are quite subpar in areas too. mostly PVE PVP and in WVW in the focus of whakittens meant to do……win and zerg v zerg. if gw2 was about roamign yes we would be in the top 2.

Vortex.3712:

as a fellow i thief i feel like the reason why people say thief are op is not because of back stab or stealth but heart seeker strike being able to be spammed…as a thief i feel like we do not need to spam HS for our dps so i think raising the initiative cost will stop a majority of the whining. what do you guys think i don’t want the skill to be changed like its function because i need that for my d/p build but i also think i don’t need to spam that skill. Thoughts?..

anyone else get the vibe this is a thief hater in disguise? i mean its pretty common knowledge that A) HS is less dmg than auto attack at higher HP amounts , andby the time target has under 50% hp we are pretty much close if not out of initiative and cant spam anything. :P seriously cmon

Lenn.6347:

AikijinX.6258:

Lenn.6347:

Helcor.9527:

15k+ hit using one button push with full zerkers and traited for damage is still over powered for any profession. Theres no logical argument against this.

these are obviously upleveled targets, with garbage armor. those numbers never realistically happen, and stupid threads like these only propagate such stupid rumors.

So basically what you’re telling me is. you don’t know how to play thief? I keep telling people to transfer to kaineng, or be crystal desert or yaks bend. I’ll gladly show the non-believers. As for recording, as i said. My laptop cant handle it.

calling your BS doesn’t have anything to do with my “knowledge or skill” of a fully geared thief of my own that never hits anywhere near that hard except on underleveled, low hp, jello shot builds.

a “normal” bs will hit anywhere from 3-7 depending on the target at 80. 16 on a full fledged, properly geared 80 is physically impossible without rigging the shot; which youve conveniently left your target out of.

dont insult people who call BS just because you have no real proof to back up your kitten thread

would u like me to show you some video ? ive gotten 18k on toughness engineers.
i run 16k hp backstab and still get over 20k on reg builds. if u like i can set up to do 30k ish? problem is that if i get a zerk build my CND usually kills them ive done 20k heartseekers too.

AikijinX.6258:

You guys make me lol. Especially you swinsk. I know I can produce much higher backstabs on a full glass cannon build nor did I have any scholar or ogre or ruby orbs, so hitting much higher is obviously possible due to good circumstances. Unfortunately I was not full glass. And nor do I need any negative feedback , Just wanted to show non believers from my last backstab thread.

aik is right here. i run beryl orbs and half valkyrie gear and i get over 20k backstabs easily. 30k is realistic i believe. run 30 30 0 0 10 dagger 5% dmg 5 might per sig 20% dmg under 50% hp 5% dmg from rear/side all zerk gear/accs with scholar runes sigil of night 25 stacks of bloodlust 22 stacks of might (max for thief) mast main oil and curry food. (opponent is also under 50% for BS strike) and wearing non toughness armor. and its a given around 30k

idk if its just dragonbrand….but the shark is dead…..floating on its side near the Skill Point challenge origin point. CANNOT TALK TO HIM! which means i cannot get the skill point….which means i cannot finish the map….which means i dont get the rewards i just busted butt for please fix this its been like this for a while now and kinda figured you guys would have done it so i am coming here now. thank you!!! anyone else on other servers have this problem?

s/p is ONLY for pve. :P

bobross.5034:

the thing about cooldowns vs initiative, is other classes wind up having “rotations” of skills, rather than spamming one skill. While this can pass as “skill” it still amounts to making sure you used all your skills on one weapon, then switching to another. There are of course more and less skillful ways of accomplishing this.

With initiative, the designed intent was to allow thieves to always have access to the best tools for a given situation. So no cooldowns means we can spam skills. Having the ability to spam skills also encourages us to do so, when one particular skill is the best for a given situation.

People complained about heartseeker spam, for example, but when an opponent is swifted, running away and low on health, heartseeker is the best tool (for d/d; as long as it doesn’t leave the thief overextended with no initiative), and spamming it makes sense.

spamming generally means one of four things,
1) there are no better uses for initiative in this moment, and there are no reasons to save it.
2) one skill is so much better than the others, that there is no reason to use them (one could make the argument that fs/ls fit this bill).
3) The other skills are so much worse, that it is not worth using them (one could also make an argument for why s/d should rarely use 4 and 5 skills).
4) The player is not thinking, and wasting initiative on the easy approach, rather than the right appraoch.

That 4th one is a dangerous trap for thieves, and it allows other players to exploit our mindless spamming by changing the situation so that continuing to spam is the wrong approach. Confusion vs s/d would be a good example of this (though, I think it was excessively nerfed, any other cc, like immobilize would also work well). Kiting and avoiding attacks while responding with ranged may also force the s/d thief to adapt or perish. Also consider that this gives Necros a much needed counter to at least one brand of thief…as they can turn boons into conditions.

i dont think anyone with a brain could counter argue this. the only counter argument is that other classes might have access to spam choice. for a thief….with no boons no blocks no invulner and 90% reliant on dmg……its a good fit.

in my opinion theres not enough intiative regen or heal or defense to run this build in tpvp. too risky…. u shoot black powder then get blasted back or KD or STunned…then ur out of invis unlessu have utility…even then ur stuck in defense/heal mode. too risky. i run s/d with a dabble of invis. then again i dont play tpvp with thief much bc of its lack of well…..umpfh

if by viable you mean you can kill another class….yes it is viable in pvp. if you mean kill another class and live with more than 2 people around? nope :P not at all. d/d is usually a highly offensive based build and sacrifices alot of defense bc the weapon skills dont give you anything but damage. you only really use 5 1 and 2. or 3 and 1 depending on your build. dont plan on fighting 2-3 people and staying alive often. u might get away with it here n there but to do what d/p or p/d or s/d does…… i just cant say its doable. yes youcan go watch yishis’ video on d/d but any good player can put together a weeks worth of single fights and make it look dominant. just go try it. the same armor will be used in other builds so the best knowledge is always the knowledge you learn yourself get out there and mix it up

variety is what keeps the game fresh. any class CAN do 1 v 1….but some are just better than others. its just as in any game. i get what you mean as some are just horrid at 1 v 1 and some are just horrid at large group play. thieves are good at 1 v 1 but pretty horrid at large group play as there is no synergy or group support other than venom share. necros are great at large group play but their 1 v 1 is lacking. really depends what u wanna do or what you find most interesting/fun in the game. everyone wants thieves nerfed bc they are decent at 1 v 1 (not as good as mesmers and tied or just barely better than eles) but no real place in dungeons or large groups.

@jportell….only 2….and thats if the opponent cooperates

they just need last refuge to overpower reveal and not give reveal. like make it a separate kind of elite invis. just an idea

Levitas.1953:

Travlane.5948:

i guess its my fault for assuming that targets wore armor in spvp :P silly me lol. anyway just tested it. nowheres near.unless naked. it got close

I just finished to read the thread and i must say you are right. you are rather silly.
Next time think twice before tossing out assumptions that only give people a bad idea about your knowledge. Read the title and wave at the 1m backstab on a rabbit.
Signed, that naked guy.

sorry what the heck are you trying to say?

yeah. i get the feeling it was a tooltip error. i mean the way coding and programming goes…. just doesnt make sense.

if ur a warrior/guardian u can just run by and ignore them…granted ur in the right build/good player. i just ignore them usually. even on my necro i just drop marks and stuff usually does it. the foolish thing to do is fight a good 1 v 1 class when ur not a good 1 v 1 class. just keep it moving.

d/d is one of the top single target outputs yep. and p/d used to be thieves best dmg. the only reason its nerfed was bc of haste….now that haste was nerfed….. well that i just dont get why they cant refix PW now

lvis.3824:

this is just plain WRONG !

S/P and D/D both were and are >> than any P/P spec.
If you really really think otherwise you have absolutely no clue about thief !

ummm …what? no idea what ur saying here man :P

so answer this anyone : why would they purposely program “the same” shadow returns with different coding? it wasnt a bug. it was in the coding. i understand what it says. but if it was a bug….then shadow step would have worked the same way…but it didnt. therefor the coding wasnt the same.

thieves already are in the lowest tier in alot of peoples ranks. i put them around 6th place
my rating is based on overall defense/offense mesh and group support plust sustainability in large fights and overall dmg going out in all fights plus small skirmish fights and also spvp/tpvp and a touch of pve ability. thief is prolly the worst in pve…..so 8th place….one of the two last place in tpvp….but in the top 2 for 1 v 1 or 1 v xing…..defense offense mesh is somewhere in the middle….group support is in bottom 2 and perhaps the worst…the only saving grace is group fury and group venoms.

Mackapacka.9462:

…. have u seen mesmer? do u know how long it takes for a s/d thief to kill a backpaddling noob mesmer? thief is not even close to broken as mesmers, why do u think all top teams play without thief,warr and necro? Because the other professions are stronger. Why do u think the mesmers, engis and eles won in the 1 v1 tourny? becasue they are better. All i have to say is that other thief builds needs a buff and s/d should stay as it is. L2p mesmers…. i know u are used to insta win and as soon as u have to do more then 1shatter and 1 blurred u whine.

well summed up. good points. used real facts. i like to see these comments …… not just for but against too. both sides of each argument should come like this. well said sir.

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

Real quick!
Since you’re obviously intimately experienced with thief mechanics!
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides KB/KD/Blowout
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides daze over .5s
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides fear
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides Daze over .5
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides immobilize over 1s.

That list looking a little light? I wonder why?.

Because having easy to access CC on initiative would be incredibly broken, I just imagine all thieves running CC spamming with high initiative regen builds… Then I immagine people complaining about that and Thieves answering “Just dodge it” (realistic, don’t you say?).

Obviously that doesn’t mean that you have no access to CC at all.

- When you steal from Guardian, you get 4s of Daze. No other profession in this game have such an high daze duration.
- When you steal from Necro you have up to 3s fear.
- You have Tactical Strike from Sword that Daze for 1.5s, which isn’t that bad considering that it can be potentially used every kitten .
- You have 4s of immobilization from Devourer Venom.
- You have 1.5s of stun from Basilisk Venom

Not to say how crucial can be a CC in the right time considering how much damage a Thief is capable to do in a couple of seconds.

Anyway, I don’t know why you posted that list as an answer to what Atherakhia said.
Initiative system encourage mindless spamming and unskilled play as it is now.
Giving too much utility on a single skill and on low initiative cost of course will encourage everyone to use that skill over and over and to use the whole initiative pool on that skill. FS has everything in it. Boon stealing, evade and damage. Why everyone would bother to use any other skill in the bar if everything is on FS?
This is the design flaws people are talking about.

I also don’t understand people saying that Thieves are easy to control through CC, specially S/D thieves. They have a stunbreaker on initiative, plus they have the most reliable set of stunbreakers in the game (somebody said Shadowstep with 2 stunbreaks in 50s?). I think Thief is the profession which suffer from stuns the least.

you cant relate utility skills bc they have 0 to do with initiative. his point is you cant spam anything with initiative skills. also your cumulative math is wrong. they only add up to that on venom and other skills if ur hitting them once…then waiting….once it expires you hit them again…then wait…. nobody does this…they just hit hit hit hit hit hit and hit again all as fast as they can bc as a thief its a race to get their hp down before they can recover….if they can recover with heals etc fast enough you have 0 chance of killing.

devourer venom is more like 2.3 seconds instead of your suggested 4.

Fear is only 2 seconds instead of your 3 suggested.

i get ur point…our stolen daze is really nice….buty its totally circumstantial too…we dont have this or fear or any stolen skill on demand. and i usually end up missing daze steal about 2/3 times bc its soooooo slow you have to walk up and basically ask permisssion to use it lol. i mean its like ATLEAST a 1 sec activation.

CC is more than just stuns….so controling a thief by stacking Chill….cripple….stun…..daze….immobilize…..root….stone….KD…KB…blowout….pull/push and all the guardian/mesmer skills. a thief is quite easy to control. thats why thieves roam in fact. too much cc = no chance = death in 2-3 seconds. on my guardian…when people gang up 6 or 7 at a time. i can still survive 20-30 seconds. compared to 1-2 against the same amount. i know its bc of the class differences but if its 6-7 attacking my thief and they DONT use CC skills….they have a slim to none chance of stopping/killing me. i would probably kill all 7 if they didnt have CC’s.

[quote=2139696;sorrow.2364:]

idk it really depends on PW…if ur running a 15k hp 60% crit 100% crit dmg 3200 attack build…..and you attack a warrior u can do a total of 4500-6500 dmg depending on a few variables…..can go up MUUUUCH higher against a thief with 0 in SA and no toughness armor obviously. but would have to hear what the circumstances are adn what you were personally running.

hard maybe ill agree. but i can stop them from geting a 2nd round of invis from BPS abuot 60% of the time ….and i say that conservatively. the reason nobody uses DD over DP ….and same reason i dont….is bc DP has blind…blind is just boss when stomping or dealing with guards….warriors….rangers….thieves….. and a few other classes but build specific. the blind that pulses is actually almost as strong as invis if not stronger atleast in a 1 v 1 with a melee type. if i have to fight a melee type and had a choice of invis or blind id choose blind pulses everytime. i can beat any of them with just BPS. its really strong.

sorrow.2364:

Dahkeus.8243:

Can you explain the math on that? I don’t follow.

He’s right in some aspects.

Protection is 1/3 damage reduction, that means that you deal 2/3 of the damage. If you consider 2/3 of your damage as base, without protection you deal 2/3 + 1/3 damage, and 1/3 damage is actually 50% of 2/3.
It is quite of a trick to say things, but it is mathematically correct.

right in a way wrong in a way…actually…this is some hillbilly math. if you do 50 % more of what you are dealing…. well lets say the first hit is 90…..now ur doing 60….50% more dmg is 90 right? but dealing 50% more dmg still gets 33% taken off due to protection…so you now still only doing 80 dmg instead of the full 90. you WANT to be dealing a TOTAL of 33% more which is .66x=90 or 90/.66 = 135 and 135-90 =45 and 45/90 = .5 and hence is where he got his 50% more TOTAL dmg.

Sunflowers.1729:

Arganthium.5638:

These are some of the worst suggestions I have ever seen.

Stealth is not OP, especially in PvP. In both PvP and WvW, all you really have to do to counter stealth is swing your sword around and spam AoE. Usually results in a “frontstab” (that’s how I dub it), which sucks and means that you’re winning.

That’s all that it takes.

I…what? Any Thief knows that the easiest people to counter are those who do just that. If you swing your sword around I just run through you, and spamming AoE is kind of a waste unless I’m immobilized (I can dodge out of it, then you will just be wasting those AoEs on nothing).

Standing in Black Powder is an even worse idea – if the Thief is running away you are rooting yourself (and you can still use HS twice anyway – use it once, run back inside, then use it again), and if the Thief is trying to kill you it’s even worse because you are standing right there for him to backstab.

Those aren’t actual ways to counter stealth! Maybe if the Thief is completely terrible they might work, but against better players they lose most of their effectiveness.

Atherakhia.4086:

The only reason D/P is so powerful is because initiative regen is so high that you don’t lose that much damage from using the defense oriented pistol offhand. The main detractor from Thieves in WvW zerg fights is that you can always see them coming.

While I agree with the overall sentiment of your post (maybe not the degree), these aren’t exactly true.

D/P uses a large amount of initiative to sustain the combo. It’s not so restrictive that you can’t use any other skills, but it’s still quite a lot.

Why D/P is so strong is that it gives impossible to fail, on-demand access to stealth, and Backstab gives massive damage (especially if you build for it, in WvW) without having any initiative cost. Most other builds have to have some kind of trade-off. To do more damage, you use initiative. To survive more, you also use initiative. D/P does both at the same time.

Edit: D/D obviously does the same thing, but CnD is much harder to land, is risky if you fail, and doesn’t have Blind/Interrupt/Gap Closer (you made good points about these too). Also D/P #3 lets you land Backstab so it’s even more easy!

The main detractor from Thieves in WvW isn’t really that you can see them coming. In the cluster of random red/green nameplates and lag, nobody can tell if you’re a Thief or not. In fact, it’s even better than a 1v1 situation – the lag makes it almost impossible to react to anything that I do.

What is actually bad about Thieves in larger fights is that stealth doesn’t stop any damage. Picking off squishy targets at the side/rear of a zerg is actually very easy to do, however if you adopt the common zerg-ball-of-death tactic then stealth does nothing.

Make no mistake – Thieves are still very, very good at large fights, just not in the ‘I make giant red circles of damage everywhere’ way.

impossible to fail invis? wow thats one heck of a statement. i make people fail invis all the time. i just stand near the black powder shot….after 2 secs they either hit me with HS and reveal or i dodge and they reveal anyway for not being able to stack it. thats not even mentioning push/pull/KB/KD/traps/lines/fears/daze/stuns ….. do u just have a personally hard time dealing with it? i mean if u give them room of course its easy access but not fool proof. i mean i guess they are all bad thieves i fight….it might seem to nto work if u try it…but thats either bc ur not doing it right or they are using HIS or Blind powder or etc to stack it. they get 2.5 secs of invis or 2 secs of invis after jumping thru first….then u stand next and they cant stack bc HS hits anyone NEAR it…not on or very close ….HS is very forgiving as far as distance and direction goes…u can miss and overshoot and it will still hit and reveal.

[quote=2126198;Piola.3782:]

i think he means PRE nerf mug. and yes we were the top dmg class which is supposed to be normal but now are a close 3rd.

evilapprentice.6379:

Atherakhia.4086:

evilapprentice.6379:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Larcenous strike should put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain new boons for 4 seconds. Then we wouldn’t need to spam it so often.

But you are right about one thing… the only legitimate complaint about thieves is how initiative regen is not balanced.

No.

Calculate the numbers for how much initiative we gain per second, and how much that benefits us, then compare with what other classes gain per second on their skills. Then tell me that it “isn’t balanced”.

The amount of time a thief can be stealthed and access to stealth isn’t balanced. Doesn’t mean the class has the tools to survive if it’s changed, because it doesn’t. But stealth in this game has got to be the dumbest implementation of it I’ve ever seen.

Just stop. Your post was about initiative regeneration, not stealth, and that’s what I replied to. Furthermore, stealth is almost detrimental to teams in PvP, and is easily countered in both WvW and PvP by practically just swinging your sword around and spamming AoE while running in random directions. It works.

The problem with stealth is the initiative regen you [censored].

So…you’re kittening about patience? The SA trait no thief takes because it’s kittening awful, pointless, and clearly inferior to any player who’s ever spent an hour on a thief in PvP?

I mean…that’s the only thing you could possibly be kittening about, because otherwise you’re kittening about the initiative system in general, which is an old, tired, debunked argument to begin with.

Debunked? Since when… it’s plain as day that the initiative system isn’t designed well and the fact that there are a dozen different skills and traits to regen initiative is the main issue behind the whole class. The simple fact is there probably shouldn’t be any.

Real quick!
Since you’re obviously intimately experienced with thief mechanics!
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides KB/KD/Blowout
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides daze over .5s
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides fear
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides Daze over .5
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides immobilize over 1s.

That list looking a little light? I wonder why?.

we only have 1 daze skill thats over .5 (tac strike) we can sometimes steal a fear…..we dont have any CLASS skills that immob that long…maybe surprise shot is 1 sec or maybe sligbhtly more…. we have dont have any blow outs or etc…closest we have really is a KD trap which is obviously garbage :P

s/d is fine :P is only great against bunker guards / bunker eles…u know the type of builds that rely almost soley on boons and such. if u want to nerf LS then you are asking for a counter to the thieves counter to bunker. thieves were giving this bc they have 0 defensinve boons…0blocks…0invulnerability…. and are squishy as heck. they needed a way to play agiainst these builds and also a reason to not play stealth. i notice people complain about thieves no matter what happens….. shadowstep… stealth….. FS/LS….. BS…CND…. its always just another FOTM/FOTW. if i go all condition dmg and run into an anti condition biuld…. i cant expect to go on a forum and ask for a nerf….. the only time something really needs a nerf is when a build is in the top tier of dmg/defense/mobility and has no real drawback or risk. the old ele build before the 2 nerfs was like that…and guardian bunker was kinda like that in spvp. thief 7-8 months ago was like that too. u can still hit a thief whil he is using FS/LS… its only a .5 sec evade on a 1 sec or slightly more animation. if it was a 3/4 or 1 sec evade i would totally agree with you. aoe…..burst…..CC… is all bad for this type of thief…..

ps…..a thief can spam any one skill until he is out of initiative….that comes at a cost though. he loses his defense and access to other skills. so saying that a thief spams anything just shouldnt be in the argument. i understand the effect adds up…but then so does any skill.

i believe that shadow return shouldnt have a distance limitation….. its the non stealth version of escape. stealth uses shadow refuge. both shadow returns ….IF they were supposed to be the same….would have used the same coding…. since they didnt it was obviously on purpose so it got nerfed. they def do push thieves into certain builds lately. idk why….if thieves dont have the escapes they die…everytime. imagine if we couldnt get away at will……nobody would play thief….its kind of the saving grace of the class. do people hate it? absolutely!! do thieves hate how fast we die jsut as much? def!

RFI is ROLL FOR INITIATIVE
DB is DEATHBLOSSOM
PVE is PLAYER VS EVERYONE/ENVIRONMENT

randomfightfan.4091:

Look up the perma dodging s/d build. It doesn’t take much skill to use and doesn’t do much damage as you will be spending the majority of the time just dodging. You will, however, be taking 0 damage so you will win any fight. It feels like cheesing as you will be 100% visible but “evaded” is the only messages your enemies will see

usually you and me agree on here…..but this is generall not true….i mean perhaps close in PVE….but playing against 3+ mobs….or a real player…. its far from it. death blossom is a 1.25 sec animation skill and it only gives you a 1/4 sec dodge consequently leaving you open to hits for 1 sec without any way to dodge move etc. most of the skills are like this. RFI is the only skill that really has a decent evade time (.75secs) although usually reacts slow to when u click it. theres a few tricks you will learn along the way.