Cause it’s fun killing people? If you really are wondering scroll forums a little and see countless other threads about this
didn’t you hear, World vs World isn’t about PvP, its only about taking objectives according to some players on this forum.
ESO is having the 1 Mega Server for PVE, and you can separate out the PVE in instances based on who you want to play with.
However its PvP system is similar to TSW, as in you pick a “Campaign” kind of like picking say JQ as a server…in that Campaign you’ll fight the the opposing realms who also picked that Campaign.
The map however for ESO makes this game look small though… It’s about 4x the size of all 3 Servers Maps combined.
By the way, I’m currently recording video for my Next video.
They only reason I didn’t wait on the video i had early was because its 8 minutes long, and I can only do 15 minute videos…
If i get any more long video like that though i’ll make separate videos of it.
SPvP thieves are different from WvW thieves, they nerf their damage and certain specs are more limited (See Condition Thieves, where you don’t have access to Rare Veggie Pizza for example)
its why the title of my thread is Stealth in World vs World needs a nerf
It also why the very first sentence in my OP is
PVE it’s fine, even in structured it’s fine to some extent.
The fact that some Thieves in this thread want to use SPvP now and PVE now is kind hilarious when talking about WvW
Now I seen some posts on here about taking an S/D thief to TA or Orr was it?
What exactly are you wanting the S/D rogue to do..cause if you give me a specific cause I’ll try and film me killing mobs in Orr on an S/D thief without stealth..Though not really sure why that’d matter
TA would be a bit different as Tactical Strike isn’t going to make a big difference as you think in a Dungeon.
I don’t think many people realize how Anet’s class system works.
If you think it’s about balance for each and every individual area, you are wrong. Each class has a strong area, and a weak area.
Thieves perform exceptionally well in 1v1 combat. Make a new character, click on thief profession. Now read the description
“They’re deadly in one-on-one combat”
Now if any of you played thief extensively(not just wvw), you will know that
A) They are powerful 1v1ist and even powerful in 1v2/3
B) They are exceptionally weak in ZergvZerg compared to pretty much every other class
C) They are exceptionally weak in PvE^This, is the whole design between Anet’s balancing. It is NOT a like Call of Duty where everything needs to be on par. This is the whole point of professions and classes. They perform DIFFERENT abilities, and hence have DIFFERENT strengths, which is why people say nerfing stealth will destroy the thief. If you make their ability to 1v1 on par with every other class, then they are every other class minus the fact that they completely suck in PvE and zergvzerg. If all classes were even on the 1v1 front, why roll a thief? When you can roll a ele? I mean, every class is par 1v1, except eles perform better in zvz, perform better in dungeons, perform better as support. This is the purpose behind roles. Thieves are duelists, 1v1ers and solo roamers, hard to catch, sneaky and elusive, and thus pay by being weak in zergvzerg, and PvE.
If you run a necro and run into a thief in wvw with nobody around, you’re fighting an uphill battle in which if you both have equal skill and luck, he will win, but in a zerg fight, you will beat the living crap out of the enemy zerg, compared to that thief, who you just ran into, melting at the sight of AoE spam, or if he runs tanky, desperately trying to squeeze out those 1K clusterbombs and dagger storms while you run around in 50K HP plague form.
I think a lot of posters should review what professions and classes are and the roles they play in this game. This is not CoD, this is not BF3. Classes should have the advantage in the role that they were designed for.
This is all fun and games as long as every single class gets a niche where they can excel. And I mean a viable niche which is often demanded. Like a WvW/sPvP roamer for thieves, sPvP point guard for elems and guardians or PvE dungeon steamrollers for warriors. If thieves were designed to wtfpwn people in small skirmishes in PvP, what was is the design principle behind engineers or rangers for example?
Specific class roles can be fun if it works well for everyone (an example of Team Fortress 2 comes to mind). But current class “balance” in GW2 is not good and the thief issue discussion is part of the debate concerning it.
My main is an engineer becouse I liked the concept of the class. But atm it serves me as just that. A “main” which waits for better times. Meanwhile I use my warrior to run dungeons, I use my guardian to farm PvE and I am leveling more classes, cant yet decide which one will be my pick for WvW but it will be either thief for stomping “noobs” or mesmer for group utility. So far I submit to this flawed design but it does not change the fact that it is flawed.
the game isn’t really designed like the way he’s suggesting, Its an excuse used in every game that’s had stealthers
“Well, Such and Such stealther is meant to be amazing in 1v1”
Completely ignoring that my Stealth can do 1vsX and do much better then other classes as well
Is that your final argument? I guess it is. I’m the sterotypical excuse guy who makes the excuse people do in other mmos. Logic.
I’ll tell you what. I’m in the process of leveling and gearing a guardian. When I’m done, how about you, versus me and my buddy, since thieves excel at 1vX, right? So surely you should have no problem against a 1v2?
Here’s a preparation tip for you: We aren’t trash pugs.
If you want to transfer over to Devona’s or IoJ i have zero problem with you and your buddy fighting me in a 1v2
I don’t think many people realize how Anet’s class system works.
If you think it’s about balance for each and every individual area, you are wrong. Each class has a strong area, and a weak area.
Thieves perform exceptionally well in 1v1 combat. Make a new character, click on thief profession. Now read the description
“They’re deadly in one-on-one combat”
Now if any of you played thief extensively(not just wvw), you will know that
A) They are powerful 1v1ist and even powerful in 1v2/3
B) They are exceptionally weak in ZergvZerg compared to pretty much every other class
C) They are exceptionally weak in PvE^This, is the whole design between Anet’s balancing. It is NOT a like Call of Duty where everything needs to be on par. This is the whole point of professions and classes. They perform DIFFERENT abilities, and hence have DIFFERENT strengths, which is why people say nerfing stealth will destroy the thief. If you make their ability to 1v1 on par with every other class, then they are every other class minus the fact that they completely suck in PvE and zergvzerg. If all classes were even on the 1v1 front, why roll a thief? When you can roll a ele? I mean, every class is par 1v1, except eles perform better in zvz, perform better in dungeons, perform better as support. This is the purpose behind roles. Thieves are duelists, 1v1ers and solo roamers, hard to catch, sneaky and elusive, and thus pay by being weak in zergvzerg, and PvE.
If you run a necro and run into a thief in wvw with nobody around, you’re fighting an uphill battle in which if you both have equal skill and luck, he will win, but in a zerg fight, you will beat the living crap out of the enemy zerg, compared to that thief, who you just ran into, melting at the sight of AoE spam, or if he runs tanky, desperately trying to squeeze out those 1K clusterbombs and dagger storms while you run around in 50K HP plague form.
I think a lot of posters should review what professions and classes are and the roles they play in this game. This is not CoD, this is not BF3. Classes should have the advantage in the role that they were designed for.
This is all fun and games as long as every single class gets a niche where they can excel. And I mean a viable niche which is often demanded. Like a WvW/sPvP roamer for thieves, sPvP point guard for elems and guardians or PvE dungeon steamrollers for warriors. If thieves were designed to wtfpwn people in small skirmishes in PvP, what was is the design principle behind engineers or rangers for example?
Specific class roles can be fun if it works well for everyone (an example of Team Fortress 2 comes to mind). But current class “balance” in GW2 is not good and the thief issue discussion is part of the debate concerning it.
My main is an engineer becouse I liked the concept of the class. But atm it serves me as just that. A “main” which waits for better times. Meanwhile I use my warrior to run dungeons, I use my guardian to farm PvE and I am leveling more classes, cant yet decide which one will be my pick for WvW but it will be either thief for stomping “noobs” or mesmer for group utility. So far I submit to this flawed design but it does not change the fact that it is flawed.
the game isn’t really designed like the way he’s suggesting, Its an excuse used in every game that’s had stealthers
“Well, Such and Such stealther is meant to be amazing in 1v1”
Completely ignoring that my Stealth can do 1vsX and do much better then other classes as well
I don’t think many people realize how Anet’s class system works.
If you think it’s about balance for each and every individual area, you are wrong. Each class has a strong area, and a weak area.
Thieves perform exceptionally well in 1v1 combat. Make a new character, click on thief profession. Now read the description
“They’re deadly in one-on-one combat”
Now if any of you played thief extensively(not just wvw), you will know that
A) They are powerful 1v1ist and even powerful in 1v2/3
B) They are exceptionally weak in ZergvZerg compared to pretty much every other class
C) They are exceptionally weak in PvE^This, is the whole design between Anet’s balancing. It is NOT a like Call of Duty where everything needs to be on par. This is the whole point of professions and classes. They perform DIFFERENT abilities, and hence have DIFFERENT strengths, which is why people say nerfing stealth will destroy the thief. If you make their ability to 1v1 on par with every other class, then they are every other class minus the fact that they completely suck in PvE and zergvzerg. If all classes were even on the 1v1 front, why roll a thief? When you can roll a ele? I mean, every class is par 1v1, except eles perform better in zvz, perform better in dungeons, perform better as support. This is the purpose behind roles. Thieves are duelists, 1v1ers and solo roamers, hard to catch, sneaky and elusive, and thus pay by being weak in zergvzerg, and PvE.
If you run a necro and run into a thief in wvw with nobody around, you’re fighting an uphill battle in which if you both have equal skill and luck, he will win, but in a zerg fight, you will beat the living crap out of the enemy zerg, compared to that thief, who you just ran into, melting at the sight of AoE spam, or if he runs tanky, desperately trying to squeeze out those 1K clusterbombs and dagger storms while you run around in 50K HP plague form.
I think a lot of posters should review what professions and classes are and the roles they play in this game. This is not CoD, this is not BF3. Classes should have the advantage in the role that they were designed for. If you are suggesting thieves be nerfed in 1v1s to be brought on par with every other class, then I better be seeing guardians/necro/ele/hammer warrior/confusion mesmer be brought to the same level as every other class in zerg v zerg. Then I want to see warrior be drastically nerfed in PvE to be brought on par with the other classes, which would all need balancing changes in order to be on par. Hell, lets just make a new game.
Certain specs of thieves are weak in Zerg Fighting..
Condition Spec Thieves are not…
I can spread Minute Long Poison and 30 second Long Weakness Around like its going out of style.
I can Apply Multiple Bleeds across a large area with Daggerstorm + Caltrops.
In fact when I’ve come across Stand Off Zerg vs Zerg fights, I’m usually the first person to rush in because I know I can easily break the line in a fight..and take advantage of the Zerg Mentality.
Now you’re probably asking yourself why would breaking the line be so important?
Because if you force large numbers of people to turn and move back (and they will cause they dont’ want to stand in bleeds and poison fields) you usually end up causing them to get run over.
Cause you don’t wanna be the side retreating in a Zerg Fight, cause that’s the side who usually ends up dying.
Which ever side ends up pushing is usually the one that lives, Because they surround people, Other people run, and flee leaving friends behind which causes even more Deaths.
That’s not to say you can’t do that with other classes…but a Thief is able to do it just as easily as anyone else.
PVE I won’t answer, cause I don’t really PVE on my Thief.
Yea, not sure why they added this back in.
Most likely they forgot why they changed it in the first place.
No, the primary mechanic of thief is stealth, the primary mechanic of ranger is not dps
No it isn’t stealth. Stealth was meant to be a secondary attribute. All the chicken little behavior claiming that ANY change to stealth ruins the class is just melodrama. What is the primary mechanic of rangers? Lol.
rangers have good acces to stability, protection , regeneration , invulnerability vs psihical damage
Double knockback (weapon skill +pet). They can CC a lot and counter CC.thieves got – no direct acces to stability/protection/ invulnerability . poor acces to regeneration
They can stun you for 1.5 seconds ?(With elite)
They got stealth only
Thieves can’t get protection/invuln/stability (except from Mesmer’s) however poor access to regeneration? ehh no….
My thief can maintain almost Perma Regen on himself, we get 5 Seconds of Regen every time we stealth + multiple talents that give Regen.
The Ranger Health Regens (Not the actual Regen Boon) will heal for 300 combine with 1200 Healing Power
My Stealth Health Regen (again not the boon) Heals for 400 with 800 Healing Power….
Everytime I stealth, I’m getting that + 5 seconds of the Regen boon, right now with 800 HP that’s 600HP Per second while in Stealth.
It’s a nice excuse to claim that thieves aren’t overpowered by stating that WvWvW is only about taking objectives. If this were true, why do we get badges for killing other players? So now those who cling to the current overpowered stealth mechanic have argued: 1. Permastealth is impossible; 2. Ok it’s possible but useless; 3. Ok it’s useful but it only works against bad players; 4. Ok it works against all players but WvWvW is only about taking objectives so it doesn’t matter that thieves are overpowered in 1 v 1 fights.
Most of us, and most thieves agree that stealth in its current incarnation is highly imbalancing in WvWvW. Why else did anet nerf the heck out of thief dps in Spvp if thieves were considered balanced? It just doesn’t hang together.
So your post here opens with the highly imbalance of stealth and then you make 4 bullet points about what you feel is a “highly imbalanced mechanic”.
Then you make a reference to thieves dps being nerfed in sPvP. Something just doesn’t hang together.
Also @xsorus
I just looked at the change to guard that you spoke of in the patch notes.
I don’t know alot about rangers but my guess they made that change because rangers could kill siege on top of keeps with their pets using guard.
That change has more to do with killing siege solo than killing players. Which tells me they don’t want the objectives that nobody cares about(as you stated) to be destroyed by a lone ranger.
It wasn’t nerfed for that reason, It was nerfed for an entirely different reason (If Mesmer was dead on a keep wall, you could send your pet in and pop search and rescue and he’d res the mesmer)
I’m sorry, i can’t take anyone seriously who thinks Class balance isn’t important in a PvP game because you get points from taking Objectives.
I imagine it’ll be quite amusing when you realize next month that a Realm Rank system is coming into the game and the way you get points is from taking objectives and killing people
But hey, Killing people in PvP isn’t important at all….Its only about that little score a the top grin
No l2 read one of the ways you get World XP is by killing people. You don’t get points. (guess your gonna flip that part and say points on your WorldXP bar is what you meant lol)
You get abilities like do more damage to NPC, take less damage from siege, take less damage from NPC, do more damage from siege. Since you find fun in roaming around killing people none of this means jack to you cause your not about to man siege right? Thats zerging and xsorus doesn’t do zerging neither do other people that play WvW.
So you will be roaming around with a title that says Siegemaster, or NPC Killa and John the Mesmer who zergs it up daily will probably have the same title as you. So nobody is gonna know if you or John the Mesmer is the leet roamer!
The difference is John the Mesmer will be doing more damage on the the arrow cart killing people and having fun, probably be asked specifically to get on the arrow cart since he does more damage heck he might even feel wanted or needed more. You will be roaming around having fun with a title not doing more damage on a arrow cart. You can always make a video of you roaming though for views. I’ll go subscribe to your youtube now k.
Kills = points rofl. That was a good one made me chuckle. Comprehension skills are in full display in this thread.
Rofl, You seriously have no clue what I meant by points do you?
Wow…just Wow..
Realm Rank system = DAOC
Realm Points = What you got for killing players in DAOC
Realm abilities = What you spent points on
The World XP you’re talking about, That’s Realm Points in this game.
Bloody hell man….
Before you post, At least know what you’re talking about.
edit
Also you don’t know all the abilities that are coming with the Realm Rank system. Though a pretty title would be nice rofl.
(edited by Xsorus.2507)
Xsorus what you are pointing out is that the Thief is one of the best, probably the best prof at killing hordes of bads. That’s all there is to it. I can beat any P/D thief on my Mesmer 1 on 1. No chance for them. If there are 10 bads around me giving them free C&D then it’s more of a pain in the kitten but still. No one is knocking you down. No one is even using a knockback or swinging around the downed players. You are fighting terribles and you know it.
Changes I’d agree with are initial damage from Poison Arrow and the Utility version of trops breaks stealth but subsequent ticks and traited dodge trops would not.
There is no initial damage from Poison Arrow, it creates a field basically.
Same with Caltrops.
Mesmer’s i don’t generally have trouble with by the way….They’re actually one of the easier classes to kill for P/D cause you have lots of free clones to CnD off of.
Granted that doesn’t mean I couldn’t die to one.
I think I was knocked back a few times in that video, I’d have to rewatch it… The very beginning though didn’t really have a mesmer.
you’re right about them not doing damage though at that spot..But really only the Necro could do anything as the Ele died multiple times.
When I played P/D, Mesmers were really easy too but it’s because they don’t know how to fight. My Mesmer uses condition swap sigils on each weapon-set and food that clears condition each heal. The heal itself reflects projectiles. I don’t even use clones/phants just stand there and auto attack with GS and dodge C&D when you get close. Every clone is instantly popped with something. It’s laughable really how easy it is. If they refuge I with focus pull or GS push them out after a couple seconds for them to blow dodges.
I don’t use all the condition swap/clear stuff just to fight P/D either, it’s just because it’s a hole in any shatter build that I wanted to fill.
I played a P/D thief at 80 for a solid 2 months so that of course helps a lot. I don’t think people not fully understanding what they are fighting is cause for a nerf.
As far as initial damage I meant the first tick, they would need to change those two skills specifically.
i don’t see how that build can kill a P/D thief, granted i’ve not played Mesmer since beta so I don’t have a huge amount of knowledge on them.
edit
They could add a small initial hit DD to both effects and that would fix that problem
It’s really simple. Zerk Mesmer auto vs P/D thief’s auto. Without stealth P/D doesn’t clear conditions nor heal well. They get maybe 2-3 free stealths depending on build, BP, the heal and maybe a steal+C&D combo. Openers are countered by reflect/distortion or decoy/MassInvis stealth. Refuge counted by GS push or focus pull. All this while every 10 sec whatever bleeds I have clear off me and swap to them and every heal/reflect I clear the entire bleed stack every 15 if needed.
The key is to not use clones and kite/avoid C&D. I’ll throw out a Bersker when it’s up and instantly shatter it. Stuff like that.
you realize i can apply that 5 stack of bleeds close to every 4 seconds right?
you’re also not guaranteed to swap that bleed as well….Since i’ll be doing Weakness/Poison/Vul as well.
you do have the right idea though, Avoid sending your pets so they can’t do C&D
so it might possibly work.
I’m sorry, i can’t take anyone seriously who thinks Class balance isn’t important in a PvP game because you get points from taking Objectives.
I imagine it’ll be quite amusing when you realize next month that a Realm Rank system is coming into the game and the way you get points is from taking objectives and killing people
But hey, Killing people in PvP isn’t important at all….Its only about that little score a the top grin
edit
By the way, telling someone not to queue for World vs World because you think World vs World is only about how much you can zerg the opposing side down is hilarious….
I personally blame it on the WoW generation…If you had the gaul to come out with something like that while playing DAOC you’d be laughed off your respective realm.
I’ve never played WoW. -_- Nor will I ever. I play mostly fighting games, and trust me when I say, I know what freaking balance is. Stealth is not a big issue. And the only thing I’m trying to convey is that WvW is not catered for PvPers so don’t expect it to be totally PvP balanced. Apparently, all you care about is trying to see WvW as a DAOC potential or whatever the heck that is. It’s not, killing people does matter, but not the way you are describing, which is small petty fights.
And quit twisting my words around. Balance is important, but stealth is not imbalanced. It’s more potent due to culling which will be attempted to be addressed in March. You are directing balance towards a huge nerf to theives when it isn’t even a class issue.
WvW is designed after DAOC, and in DAOC class balance was just as important as it is here…Cause Class Balance is always important when you consider PvP in a game.
If I could one shot people, and escape freely, You’d consider that a problem…Because it would be broken…
Also this culling excuse you guys keep using it, Let me just say, That’s not going to fly in a month when they remove Culling, so i suggest you start working up another excuse..Because I have a thief, I fight thieves….I know what BS that excuse is..
By the way, I love that you believe WvW is not catered to PvPers
They should advertise that
Rofl..
They took the idea of DAOC, but obviously it has it’s own unique qualities, in so many ways. I’ve never played DAOC, but I am just going to jump the gun and say that GW2’s gameplay is different so the PvP balancing in DAOC can’t apply to GW2, unless you literally had all the GW2 mechanics point by point in that game. Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges when talking about solutions.
My view is anything goes in open world, so don’t be off guard or don’t be so down when it happens. If you get one-shotted, you have to figure out why. Was it because your traits/equipment were low or all zerk? Was it because the class was in fact overpowered? Was it avoidable? Could you have stunbroken or invulnerable or distort out? Can you do anything about it? —- You aren’t asking those questions first nor do you give examples so I find your passion for thief nerfing moot. But seriously what are we talking about here? Stealth or being one-shotted or both? Make your point clear and quiting bringing other possible issues into it.
I am not making an excuse when I mention culling. Obviously it’s an issue. If you want to say culling isn’t an issue then come guest to SBI and let’s duke it out in the Mists where it isn’t. Choose a thief, and I will do my best to show you how any class other than thief can still handle them with whatever game tactic you choose with him. And if I beat you with at least one of them consistently, go to a corner and starting using your brain before coming here with sarcastic/know-it-all/inconsistent comments.
A. they copied most of DAOC, DAOC’s Relics were basically the “Winning” of that game vs match points. They’re copying it even more by doing the Realm Rank system next patch.
B. I’m not sure you’re understanding what i’m saying..I play a thief….I think Stealth is overpowered….I’m commenting on the fact if I could one shot people it would be overpowered, and thus should be changed… just like Stealth should be changed….Even though it has nothing to do with “points” in world vs world. I’m thinking you think I’m complaining about thieves because I died to one or something..which isn’t the case.
C. I’m on SBI mate….As for your post about beating a Thief? I’m sure there are specs out there that can kill most thieves 1v1 (I know i can kill them on my Ranger 1v1 if they’re certain specs and they decide to stay and fight) hell.. the spec i’m using P/D is countered by other thieves using D/P… So not really sure what you’re saying there…If a Thief generally dies in a 1v1 he dies because he screwed up..or because he just didn’t want to run away.
A. Classes balances happens for who knows what reason, sPvP, PvE, maybe WvW but doubt that WvW 1v1s is where they make their real decisions. The only major thing that really did for WvW was take out annoying consumables and put a CD on crit chance consumables.
B. If you play poker, and you made a meta-game where whoever had the most 7s that game was the victor, you’d still lose because that’s not what the game is about. If you play a tower defense game and all you cared about was getting kills and not protecting the towers, you would lose the game. If you hop onto WvW and kill people and fail to take camps, you lost the game. Class balance or not, it doesn’t affect the type of game at hand.
C. Have you not considered that most people who WvW considers taking keeps, getting points as having fun? There are quite a number of people/guilds who actually take it seriously. I still see zergs or mini groups of them roaming about trying to take points because they still care to fight. I’m sorry that you don’t feel that way—but seriously don’t queue up for WvW if you aren’t going to actually play the WvW game. Commanders would hate people like you unless you are scouting at the least.
You would probably see more posters in this thread if it actually mattered, but it’s just you and few others really complaining, while oZii and I are at least trying to aid you if coming to this easy reckoning that maybe class balance doesn’t matter when
1. You can use food buffs
2. There is no lvl req to enter WvW
3. You can run into any x number of people at anytime. 1v1s are not a gurantee
4. Killing people does not add to points
5. There is not equipment req to enter Wvw (you can run in all whites) heck, as a thief, even if you wreck 10 people and get away with it, you don’t even know if they have any exotic gear whatsoever.
6. Escaping a battle does nothing in WvW, it just doesn’t satisfy your own self-fish desire to kill them
7. You have access to banner buffs/outmanned buffs/gem buffsWhen did class balance = thieves nerfed. I agree with buffing other classes maybe. But it seems very childish to say “Oh yeah, I run x/x and trait x/x/x/x/x and can pwn class y with y/y even if he’s bunker”—-“Nuh uh, I can beat you blah blah blah” We will never know unless they open up a real deathmatch pvp realm which WvW is NOT. No matter what you say, that’s not what it is. Anet doesn’t have to cater to people who seriously needs to just L2P or man up.
I’m sorry, i can’t take anyone seriously who thinks Class balance isn’t important in a PvP game because you get points from taking Objectives.
I imagine it’ll be quite amusing when you realize next month that a Realm Rank system is coming into the game and the way you get points is from taking objectives and killing people
But hey, Killing people in PvP isn’t important at all….Its only about that little score a the top grin
edit
By the way, telling someone not to queue for World vs World because you think World vs World is only about how much you can zerg the opposing side down is hilarious….
I personally blame it on the WoW generation…If you had the gaul to come out with something like that while playing DAOC you’d be laughed off your respective realm.
I’ve never played WoW. -_- Nor will I ever. I play mostly fighting games, and trust me when I say, I know what freaking balance is. Stealth is not a big issue. And the only thing I’m trying to convey is that WvW is not catered for PvPers so don’t expect it to be totally PvP balanced. Apparently, all you care about is trying to see WvW as a DAOC potential or whatever the heck that is. It’s not, killing people does matter, but not the way you are describing, which is small petty fights.
And quit twisting my words around. Balance is important, but stealth is not imbalanced. It’s more potent due to culling which will be attempted to be addressed in March. You are directing balance towards a huge nerf to theives when it isn’t even a class issue.
WvW is designed after DAOC, and in DAOC class balance was just as important as it is here…Cause Class Balance is always important when you consider PvP in a game.
If I could one shot people, and escape freely, You’d consider that a problem…Because it would be broken…
Also this culling excuse you guys keep using it, Let me just say, That’s not going to fly in a month when they remove Culling, so i suggest you start working up another excuse..Because I have a thief, I fight thieves….I know what BS that excuse is..
By the way, I love that you believe WvW is not catered to PvPers
They should advertise that
Rofl..
Xsorus what you are pointing out is that the Thief is one of the best, probably the best prof at killing hordes of bads. That’s all there is to it. I can beat any P/D thief on my Mesmer 1 on 1. No chance for them. If there are 10 bads around me giving them free C&D then it’s more of a pain in the kitten but still. No one is knocking you down. No one is even using a knockback or swinging around the downed players. You are fighting terribles and you know it.
Changes I’d agree with are initial damage from Poison Arrow and the Utility version of trops breaks stealth but subsequent ticks and traited dodge trops would not.
There is no initial damage from Poison Arrow, it creates a field basically.
Same with Caltrops.
Mesmer’s i don’t generally have trouble with by the way….They’re actually one of the easier classes to kill for P/D cause you have lots of free clones to CnD off of.
Granted that doesn’t mean I couldn’t die to one.
I think I was knocked back a few times in that video, I’d have to rewatch it… The very beginning though didn’t really have a mesmer.
you’re right about them not doing damage though at that spot..But really only the Necro could do anything as the Ele died multiple times.
When I played P/D, Mesmers were really easy too but it’s because they don’t know how to fight. My Mesmer uses condition swap sigils on each weapon-set and food that clears condition each heal. The heal itself reflects projectiles. I don’t even use clones/phants just stand there and auto attack with GS and dodge C&D when you get close. Every clone is instantly popped with something. It’s laughable really how easy it is. If they refuge I with focus pull or GS push them out after a couple seconds for them to blow dodges.
I don’t use all the condition swap/clear stuff just to fight P/D either, it’s just because it’s a hole in any shatter build that I wanted to fill.
I played a P/D thief at 80 for a solid 2 months so that of course helps a lot. I don’t think people not fully understanding what they are fighting is cause for a nerf.
As far as initial damage I meant the first tick, they would need to change those two skills specifically.
i don’t see how that build can kill a P/D thief, granted i’ve not played Mesmer since beta so I don’t have a huge amount of knowledge on them.
edit
They could add a small initial hit DD to both effects and that would fix that problem
IF you are a mesmer beating a P/D thief please give me tips because these guys stack so many bleeds…. And mesmers condi removal sucks… Worse than a warrior. :/ But if the march fix is going to permanently solve culling lets see what happens there… But if the thief complaints still continue then it means that the devs need to take a much harder look at stealth and all the perks that a thief gets with stealth.. I know it is the mechanic of the class. But i don’t think any class can get as high damage buffs/boons/defensive options rolled into one with their class mechanics.
He could be using a build besides the current ones I see (that Sword one where they teleport to you and do that silly channel) and the Confusion ones.
The sword one is a joke to kill, cause they are predictable and have no condition removal really of note..
The Confusion ones can be dangerous, But are fairly easy to kill, They just take a while cause you’re having to constantly stop attacking cause of Confusion.
no sir, really important to turn that off. sometimes i forget to deselect before Monarch’s Leap, which gets me killed.
I have that happen to me all the time.
Bloody hate that..
It wasn’t buffed….
If you used Offhand training, which you should have been doing if you used Axe Offhand (Damage increase + Range + Cooldown decrease) you didn’t see a damage upgrade.
It only people who didn’t use that talent that will see it, and very few people did this…Because it blows horribly.
Xsorus what you are pointing out is that the Thief is one of the best, probably the best prof at killing hordes of bads. That’s all there is to it. I can beat any P/D thief on my Mesmer 1 on 1. No chance for them. If there are 10 bads around me giving them free C&D then it’s more of a pain in the kitten but still. No one is knocking you down. No one is even using a knockback or swinging around the downed players. You are fighting terribles and you know it.
Changes I’d agree with are initial damage from Poison Arrow and the Utility version of trops breaks stealth but subsequent ticks and traited dodge trops would not.
There is no initial damage from Poison Arrow, it creates a field basically.
Same with Caltrops.
Mesmer’s i don’t generally have trouble with by the way….They’re actually one of the easier classes to kill for P/D cause you have lots of free clones to CnD off of.
Granted that doesn’t mean I couldn’t die to one.
I think I was knocked back a few times in that video, I’d have to rewatch it… The very beginning though didn’t really have a mesmer.
you’re right about them not doing damage though at that spot..But really only the Necro could do anything as the Ele died multiple times.
A. Classes aren’t balanced in WvW, that’s why they continue to change them..even as recently as 2 days ago.
B. The scenario presented in this thread? What scenario? you made the video about me not defending the camp from being taken…You made the video about me not asking people to come zerg the already out gunned side..I never said anything about the Supply camp up until that point..I made the video to show how I can bloody stealth over and over again and kill multiple enemies while escaping..Just because your argument didn’t hold wait about Class balance, you can’t go back and change your original complaint on the video. You entire excuse for that has been “Well Class balance doesn’t matter cause you couldn’t stop them from taking a camp”
C. The Goal of the game? The Goal of the Game Mode is to have fun….We were going to make it about points then the people on TC/Devona’s shouldn’t even both playing right now because they’re to far behind to catch up in points…So I guess they wont’ be out there when I log in.
D. The fact that you don’t understand why most people got upset is rather funny..People didn’t get upset because they were losing their rankings..They got upset because the matches were almost balanced out, and all the ranking reset would of done would be putting high population servers against low population servers for a good ole thrashing…If they’d done it at the start..It would of been fine, but they were waiting till the last minute to do it when the issue was almost fixed.
A. Classes balances happens for who knows what reason, sPvP, PvE, maybe WvW but doubt that WvW 1v1s is where they make their real decisions. The only major thing that really did for WvW was take out annoying consumables and put a CD on crit chance consumables.
B. If you play poker, and you made a meta-game where whoever had the most 7s that game was the victor, you’d still lose because that’s not what the game is about. If you play a tower defense game and all you cared about was getting kills and not protecting the towers, you would lose the game. If you hop onto WvW and kill people and fail to take camps, you lost the game. Class balance or not, it doesn’t affect the type of game at hand.
C. Have you not considered that most people who WvW considers taking keeps, getting points as having fun? There are quite a number of people/guilds who actually take it seriously. I still see zergs or mini groups of them roaming about trying to take points because they still care to fight. I’m sorry that you don’t feel that way—but seriously don’t queue up for WvW if you aren’t going to actually play the WvW game. Commanders would hate people like you unless you are scouting at the least.
You would probably see more posters in this thread if it actually mattered, but it’s just you and few others really complaining, while oZii and I are at least trying to aid you if coming to this easy reckoning that maybe class balance doesn’t matter when
1. You can use food buffs
2. There is no lvl req to enter WvW
3. You can run into any x number of people at anytime. 1v1s are not a gurantee
4. Killing people does not add to points
5. There is not equipment req to enter Wvw (you can run in all whites) heck, as a thief, even if you wreck 10 people and get away with it, you don’t even know if they have any exotic gear whatsoever.
6. Escaping a battle does nothing in WvW, it just doesn’t satisfy your own self-fish desire to kill them
7. You have access to banner buffs/outmanned buffs/gem buffsWhen did class balance = thieves nerfed. I agree with buffing other classes maybe. But it seems very childish to say “Oh yeah, I run x/x and trait x/x/x/x/x and can pwn class y with y/y even if he’s bunker”—-“Nuh uh, I can beat you blah blah blah” We will never know unless they open up a real deathmatch pvp realm which WvW is NOT. No matter what you say, that’s not what it is. Anet doesn’t have to cater to people who seriously needs to just L2P or man up.
I’m sorry, i can’t take anyone seriously who thinks Class balance isn’t important in a PvP game because you get points from taking Objectives.
I imagine it’ll be quite amusing when you realize next month that a Realm Rank system is coming into the game and the way you get points is from taking objectives and killing people
But hey, Killing people in PvP isn’t important at all….Its only about that little score a the top grin
edit
By the way, telling someone not to queue for World vs World because you think World vs World is only about how much you can zerg the opposing side down is hilarious….
I personally blame it on the WoW generation…If you had the gaul to come out with something like that while playing DAOC you’d be laughed off your respective realm.
(edited by Xsorus.2507)
If you come across a D/D ele, switch to venoms
D/D ele’s aren’t hard to kill on a thief..
Both my Ranger and Thief mow through them rather easily.
Expert advice here if your running S/D, D/D, S/P, D/P, P/P and your a burst thief. Traits are 30/30/30/30/30 You see RTL quickly switch to quick venoms for the cooldown reduction. Also swap into the carrion gear you have in your inventory and swap your trinkets and sigils.
Switch to venoms guys to kill d/d elementalists.
My Bunker Thief can kill d/d Elementalists, there is no reason the other builds can’t. Hell, I beat D/D Elementalists on my Ranger easier than I kill Warriors.
Some D/D ele’s can be tough, I know I’ve fought them kitten D and could kill some of them, Some of them though were frankly impossible to bring down, and while they couldn’t kill me, I couldn’t kill them.
P/D though i’ve not ran into that though, I’ve walked over all the D/D ele’s ive come across, It could also be because i’ve not ran into a large amount of good ones either, They’re a bit more FOTM now so with more numbers of them out, the more often you’ll run into crappier ones.
It’s funny to see Thieves complain about the D/D Elementalist, as if they’re OP considering.
As a Bunker Thief I can’t kill a P/D Thief, but he can’t kill me either, and I generally force D/D Thieves to run, though I’ve had a few take my 22k HP, and 3300 Armor down to below 1k health in a short amount of time. I absolutely dominate D/D Elementalists, though I’ve had a few who were extremely hard to kill, or they ran.
As a Ranger, a P/D Thief is unkillable, and he can kill me. Because I’m also bunker build, if I time my dodges correctly, my pet eats up D/D Thieves, but a smart one isn’t going to stick around to die. I litterally eat D/D Elementalists with Shortbow, even though some fights can be long.
My Mesmer… Some days I feel invulnerable, other days I feel like I can’t stay alive. The only Thief that gives me trouble the most are P/D Thieves, and the occasional 20k in 2 second Thieves.
My Warrior… I blow people up in seconds, or they blow me up in seconds. I absolutely dominate bunker builds with this guy, especially D/D Elementalists.
My Guardian… I havn’t played since my builds have felt the nerfs to Guardian the most.
Some P/D thieves i can kill on my Ranger, some will kill me though…I imagine after the patch I probably wouldn’t win this fight.
Need to run ranged pets to really have a chance vs P/D thief…. and i don’t usually.
What is annoying is it got nerfed because another class is overpowered with Portal.
It probably has more of an effect on bow users then people who are in melee range more often.
Bow users generally kite, and their pet has to kite with them…so Chills and such will hurt your pet a lot.
if you’re in the targets face, Your pet has to move less.
I still can’t see giving it up though.
Personally I find that P/D’s only as effective as how little condition removal the target has. I find that S/D gets caught in the crossfire of the D/D hate, a lot.
S/D isn’t nearly as powerful as D/D and P/D are..
My first thief video was me doing S/D…I know what that build can and cannot do.
In fact I used D/D as a secondary set based on what S/D can’t do.
If you come across a D/D ele, switch to venoms
D/D ele’s aren’t hard to kill on a thief..
Both my Ranger and Thief mow through them rather easily.
Expert advice here if your running S/D, D/D, S/P, D/P, P/P and your a burst thief. Traits are 30/30/30/30/30 You see RTL quickly switch to quick venoms for the cooldown reduction. Also swap into the carrion gear you have in your inventory and swap your trinkets and sigils.
Switch to venoms guys to kill d/d elementalists.
My Bunker Thief can kill d/d Elementalists, there is no reason the other builds can’t. Hell, I beat D/D Elementalists on my Ranger easier than I kill Warriors.
Some D/D ele’s can be tough, I know I’ve fought them kitten D and could kill some of them, Some of them though were frankly impossible to bring down, and while they couldn’t kill me, I couldn’t kill them.
P/D though i’ve not ran into that though, I’ve walked over all the D/D ele’s ive come across, It could also be because i’ve not ran into a large amount of good ones either, They’re a bit more FOTM now so with more numbers of them out, the more often you’ll run into crappier ones.
This thread is basically 3 people talking to each other…
kittening back and forwth without really suggesting anything.
For me, I personally feel that stealth is a problem but it only needs minor tweaking.
Mesmer –
Veil – Only affect 5 players max (inline with thief’s SF)
Mass stealth – No change since this is an elite.Thief –
Infusion of shadow – Reduce to 1 init regen instead of 2
Infitrator Signat – Init regen remove and replace
Quick recovery – Remove and replace
Patience – Remove and replace
Quick Pockets – Remove and replace
Hastened Replenishment – Remove and replace
Kleptomaniac – Remove and replaceHow will these changes affect thieves gameplay in general?
Burst D/D – No change. They will still kill and be killed as fast as before.
Balance BS D/D – Slight nerf to init regen but not much. They can still CnD and restealth but you will see fewer of those.
S/D – Slight nerf in init regen. They can’t spam infil strike like before. More careful timing of skill use.
P/D – Med nerf to init regen thus toning down the amount of sneak attack.
D/P – Stealth via combo field with almost instant init regen got to go. This build will feel the nurf bat. This will end infinite stealth build.
What do you guys think?
I don’t use any init regens or talents that give init in my build or in that video.
You want to fix Stealth, you have to go to the source of the problem…CND..
Though i think you’re probably right about D/P though with the infinite stealth..If that wasn’t addressed you’d probably end up with most Stealthers switching to that build.
How about you don’t kitten Sword/Dagger over just to bring kittening Dagger/Dagger in line!?
How are the proposed change going to kitten over S/D??
He’s talking to me about changing CnD, not your post.
edit though having re-read his post, I’m not even going to say he was wrong now..
Since he said the following
“interesting, as most of the bigger and considered best guilds run wvw mostly for the fights, not the scenarios. They even transfer servers to find those fights…”
Most implies some…It doesn’t imply all.
Hell most don’t care frankly about the WvW system at all besides actually fighting other players
Good thing we agree on the definition of most. Rofl I see we are getting somewhere. lol
So you agree what Most doesn’t imply all, Yet you still continue to argue that Class balance doesn’t matter in World vs World because its all about “points” and nothing else
Interesting idea you got there
grin
What does the definition of most have to do with any my posts about stealth or thieves? Your all over the place rofl.
You can’t take a post and then apply it to another post without seeing the context of that post you do this alot.
Lets continue though..
I have never said class balance doesn’t matter in WvW not once have I said that. I said class balance doesn’t matter in the scenarios presented in this thread. Your video with the camp (doesn’t matter) for example.
If WvW was all about just fighting players as you believe most players care about then you would have some valid arguments. That is not what the goal of the game mode is. No matter how many ways you slice the bread.
My point is simple that maybe the classes are balanced how Anet thinks they should be in the WvW setting. That is the side of the fence that I am on. I know what WvW is I may not play the goals or build trebs or zerg all the time but I still know what the goal of the game mode is. It doesn’t matter what you think it is or your assumption that the player base only cares about killing people. The intent of WvW is objectives and points.
Go back a few weeks when they said they would do a ratings reset. Why did so many people get upset about that if most of the WvW players don’t care about the WvW system?
A. Classes aren’t balanced in WvW, that’s why they continue to change them..even as recently as 2 days ago.
B. The scenario presented in this thread? What scenario? you made the video about me not defending the camp from being taken…You made the video about me not asking people to come zerg the already out gunned side..I never said anything about the Supply camp up until that point..I made the video to show how I can bloody stealth over and over again and kill multiple enemies while escaping..Just because your argument didn’t hold wait about Class balance, you can’t go back and change your original complaint on the video. You entire excuse for that has been “Well Class balance doesn’t matter cause you couldn’t stop them from taking a camp”
C. The Goal of the game? The Goal of the Game Mode is to have fun….We were going to make it about points then the people on TC/Devona’s shouldn’t even both playing right now because they’re to far behind to catch up in points…So I guess they wont’ be out there when I log in.
D. The fact that you don’t understand why most people got upset is rather funny..People didn’t get upset because they were losing their rankings..They got upset because the matches were almost balanced out, and all the ranking reset would of done would be putting high population servers against low population servers for a good ole thrashing…If they’d done it at the start..It would of been fine, but they were waiting till the last minute to do it when the issue was almost fixed.
This thread is basically 3 people talking to each other…
kittening back and forwth without really suggesting anything.
For me, I personally feel that stealth is a problem but it only needs minor tweaking.
Mesmer –
Veil – Only affect 5 players max (inline with thief’s SF)
Mass stealth – No change since this is an elite.Thief –
Infusion of shadow – Reduce to 1 init regen instead of 2
Infitrator Signat – Init regen remove and replace
Quick recovery – Remove and replace
Patience – Remove and replace
Quick Pockets – Remove and replace
Hastened Replenishment – Remove and replace
Kleptomaniac – Remove and replaceHow will these changes affect thieves gameplay in general?
Burst D/D – No change. They will still kill and be killed as fast as before.
Balance BS D/D – Slight nerf to init regen but not much. They can still CnD and restealth but you will see fewer of those.
S/D – Slight nerf in init regen. They can’t spam infil strike like before. More careful timing of skill use.
P/D – Med nerf to init regen thus toning down the amount of sneak attack.
D/P – Stealth via combo field with almost instant init regen got to go. This build will feel the nurf bat. This will end infinite stealth build.
What do you guys think?
I don’t use any init regens or talents that give init in my build or in that video.
You want to fix Stealth, you have to go to the source of the problem…CND..
Though i think you’re probably right about D/P though with the infinite stealth..If that wasn’t addressed you’d probably end up with most Stealthers switching to that build.
How about you don’t kitten Sword/Dagger over just to bring kittening Dagger/Dagger in line!?
D/D actually isn’t a huge CnD user compared to S/D and P/D…
P/D abused CnD the most, followed by S/D (though S/D isn’t nearly as oped as P/D)
If they were going to work on stealth, They’d have to be very careful on how they handle things.
I still think the Phase idea is the best one i’ve seen.
edit though having re-read his post, I’m not even going to say he was wrong now..
Since he said the following
“interesting, as most of the bigger and considered best guilds run wvw mostly for the fights, not the scenarios. They even transfer servers to find those fights…”
Most implies some…It doesn’t imply all.
Hell most don’t care frankly about the WvW system at all besides actually fighting other players
Good thing we agree on the definition of most. Rofl I see we are getting somewhere. lol
So you agree what Most doesn’t imply all, Yet you still continue to argue that Class balance doesn’t matter in World vs World because its all about “points” and nothing else
Interesting idea you got there
grin
This thread is basically 3 people talking to each other…
kittening back and forwth without really suggesting anything.
For me, I personally feel that stealth is a problem but it only needs minor tweaking.
Mesmer –
Veil – Only affect 5 players max (inline with thief’s SF)
Mass stealth – No change since this is an elite.Thief –
Infusion of shadow – Reduce to 1 init regen instead of 2
Infitrator Signat – Init regen remove and replace
Quick recovery – Remove and replace
Patience – Remove and replace
Quick Pockets – Remove and replace
Hastened Replenishment – Remove and replace
Kleptomaniac – Remove and replaceHow will these changes affect thieves gameplay in general?
Burst D/D – No change. They will still kill and be killed as fast as before.
Balance BS D/D – Slight nerf to init regen but not much. They can still CnD and restealth but you will see fewer of those.
S/D – Slight nerf in init regen. They can’t spam infil strike like before. More careful timing of skill use.
P/D – Med nerf to init regen thus toning down the amount of sneak attack.
D/P – Stealth via combo field with almost instant init regen got to go. This build will feel the nurf bat. This will end infinite stealth build.
What do you guys think?
I don’t use any init regens or talents that give init in my build or in that video.
You want to fix Stealth, you have to go to the source of the problem…CND..
Though i think you’re probably right about D/P though with the infinite stealth..If that wasn’t addressed you’d probably end up with most Stealthers switching to that build.
During the fight on the build, they had a good chance to kill you when you missed 2 CnD. Too bad they didn’t know what they were doing and 1 or 2 were uplevel.
Sorry but if I saw you in WvW with that build of yours, you will either die in 10 sec or will be running for the hills.
D/P is too cheesy for me and I’m Back Stab build…
Yeap, I missed CnD multiple times… and used teleport (since I think my stealth’s were down)
Backstab builds it depends… if it’s a 1v1..You won’t win..I’ll kill you and move along, However if you jump me while i’m fighting a large group of people..I’m pretty much screwed (along with most people)..
If you were D/P though you’d crap on me..that build eats P/D builds up very easily.
I’m D/D S/D.
Want to duel? If I win, you pay me the gem I paid to get there and pay me gems to get back to my server. If you win, I’ll give you 25 gold.
That depends, what server you on?
Its highly possible if you did win i couldn’t actually pay you at all.
edit
i checked the prices, I couldn’t actually pay you to get back, its 45 Gold to transfer back to the higher population servers, Though if you wait till night time I might be able to depending on server population.
(edited by Xsorus.2507)
They found a fight fairly quickly…as they were murdering their way up through the ranks.
however the reason they left SBI had zero to do with World vs World matches
They left cause they didn’t like the cheating that was happening.
Huh?!? Don’t those contradict each other?
They must have left cause they didn’t like people cheating and skipping mobs in CoF? People using orbs of power in Twilight Arbor? Spying during dungeon runs? This is unprecedented news those crazy PvE players!!!
They didn’t leave SBI cause of cheating in World vs World matches according to you. Yea totally seperate.
This is hilarious lol continue please
That didn’t like the cheating like i said, They didn’t transfer cause they though the World vs World matches would matter more.
They left cause the cheating was rampant and there was no point in playing on that tier.
Why you’re trying to bring cheating in PVE into a PvP topic i don’t know…This is looking like one of those applies and oranges things again you like to bring up.
people were cheating in PvP, it had nothing to do with World vs World..Why you’re trying to compare the two i don’t know..
This thread is basically 3 people talking to each other…
kittening back and forwth without really suggesting anything.
For me, I personally feel that stealth is a problem but it only needs minor tweaking.
Mesmer –
Veil – Only affect 5 players max (inline with thief’s SF)
Mass stealth – No change since this is an elite.Thief –
Infusion of shadow – Reduce to 1 init regen instead of 2
Infitrator Signat – Init regen remove and replace
Quick recovery – Remove and replace
Patience – Remove and replace
Quick Pockets – Remove and replace
Hastened Replenishment – Remove and replace
Kleptomaniac – Remove and replaceHow will these changes affect thieves gameplay in general?
Burst D/D – No change. They will still kill and be killed as fast as before.
Balance BS D/D – Slight nerf to init regen but not much. They can still CnD and restealth but you will see fewer of those.
S/D – Slight nerf in init regen. They can’t spam infil strike like before. More careful timing of skill use.
P/D – Med nerf to init regen thus toning down the amount of sneak attack.
D/P – Stealth via combo field with almost instant init regen got to go. This build will feel the nurf bat. This will end infinite stealth build.
What do you guys think?
I don’t use any init regens or talents that give init in my build or in that video.
You want to fix Stealth, you have to go to the source of the problem…CND..
Though i think you’re probably right about D/P though with the infinite stealth..If that wasn’t addressed you’d probably end up with most Stealthers switching to that build.
During the fight on the build, they had a good chance to kill you when you missed 2 CnD. Too bad they didn’t know what they were doing and 1 or 2 were uplevel.
Sorry but if I saw you in WvW with that build of yours, you will either die in 10 sec or will be running for the hills.
D/P is too cheesy for me and I’m Back Stab build…
Yeap, I missed CnD multiple times… and used teleport (since I think my stealth’s were down)
Backstab builds it depends… if it’s a 1v1..You won’t win..I’ll kill you and move along, However if you jump me while i’m fighting a large group of people..I’m pretty much screwed (along with most people)..
If you were D/P though you’d crap on me..that build eats P/D builds up very easily.
you’re trying to do apples and oranges again.
interesting, as most of the bigger and considered best guilds run wvw mostly for the fights, not the scenarios. They even transfer servers to find those fights…
my reply
Yea War Machine totally transferred to Kaineng to go meet up in WvW just to find fights.
Your not reading again
Barney style: Killmandro says the large/best known guilds transfer for those fights.
I respond with an example of War Machine transferring to Kaineng not because they are looking for fights.
Looks like apples and apples to me.
They found a fight fairly quickly…as they were murdering their way up through the ranks.
however the reason they left SBI had zero to do with World vs World matches, Nor with finding a fight..
They left cause they didn’t like the cheating that was happening.
You basically found a guild that left based on neither of the examples you guys used.
and tried to play it off like they left that server because they were looking for a better Match. When I called you out on that, you’re now trying to claim you were only offering an example as to why big guild leave servers.
You being wrong along with him doesn’t make your argument better..It just means you were both wrong on that one example.
Apples and Oranges my friend..Apples and Oranges.
edit though having re-read his post, I’m not even going to say he was wrong now..
Since he said the following
“interesting, as most of the bigger and considered best guilds run wvw mostly for the fights, not the scenarios. They even transfer servers to find those fights…”
Most implies some…It doesn’t imply all.
So i’m afraid the only one wrong in this case was you..Better luck next time.
This thread is basically 3 people talking to each other…
kittening back and forwth without really suggesting anything.
For me, I personally feel that stealth is a problem but it only needs minor tweaking.
Mesmer –
Veil – Only affect 5 players max (inline with thief’s SF)
Mass stealth – No change since this is an elite.Thief –
Infusion of shadow – Reduce to 1 init regen instead of 2
Infitrator Signat – Init regen remove and replace
Quick recovery – Remove and replace
Patience – Remove and replace
Quick Pockets – Remove and replace
Hastened Replenishment – Remove and replace
Kleptomaniac – Remove and replaceHow will these changes affect thieves gameplay in general?
Burst D/D – No change. They will still kill and be killed as fast as before.
Balance BS D/D – Slight nerf to init regen but not much. They can still CnD and restealth but you will see fewer of those.
S/D – Slight nerf in init regen. They can’t spam infil strike like before. More careful timing of skill use.
P/D – Med nerf to init regen thus toning down the amount of sneak attack.
D/P – Stealth via combo field with almost instant init regen got to go. This build will feel the nurf bat. This will end infinite stealth build.
What do you guys think?
I don’t use any init regens or talents that give init in my build or in that video.
You want to fix Stealth, you have to go to the source of the problem…CND..
Though i think you’re probably right about D/P though with the infinite stealth..If that wasn’t addressed you’d probably end up with most Stealthers switching to that build.
All of this supports that you know WvW might actually balanced already which is why Elementalists haven’t been nerfed hard and thieves havent been nerfed in 5 months.
Every class since launch has received Nerfs…I don’t know who you’re kidding..
rofl…
I don’t even know where the comprehension. From my statement of elementalists havent been nerfed hard and thieves haven’t been nerfed in about 5 months. You got that I think no classes have been nerfed ever. Rofl
Elementalist have received multiple nerfs, Hell some this patch.
So have Thieves…
I also pointed out Rangers received a Nerf this patch based entirely on World Vs World (Unless you think Guard was nerfed because of SPvP)
Yea I know sherlock thats why I said thieves haven’t been nerfed in 5 months. Elementalists haven’t been nerfed hard.
Haven’t been nerfed hard does not equal never been nerfed lol.
Elementalist received a fairly hefty nerf this patch.
It’s not the AOE changes (i’m willing to bet that’s coming next patch)
But it’s fairly major.
Thieves has received some nerfs, usually designed around slowing their burst down.
not that it has any major effect on the class.
I think Guardians and Engineer’s have taken more nerfs to be honest.
Hopefully they will make an official announcement about the upcoming patch or atleast give us confirmation that its true.
I’m pretty sure its true, since it’s in an interview of them talking about it.
War Machine obviously left for that server because they thought the World vs World match would matter more boggle
Yea they obviously didn’t move just to find fights like killmandro suggested
Oh thats what you got from that post. I got that they moved cause they didn’t like the underhanded tactics being used in tier 1. Jang must have made a mistake in his post probably a typo.
He didn’t like people cheating… that’s why he moved.
He certainly didn’t move cause he thought the World vs World match would matter more.
you’re trying to do apples and oranges again.
All of this supports that you know WvW might actually balanced already which is why Elementalists haven’t been nerfed hard and thieves havent been nerfed in 5 months.
Every class since launch has received Nerfs…I don’t know who you’re kidding..
rofl…
I don’t even know where the comprehension. From my statement of elementalists havent been nerfed hard and thieves haven’t been nerfed in about 5 months. You got that I think no classes have been nerfed ever. Rofl
Elementalist have received multiple nerfs, Hell some this patch.
So have Thieves…
I also pointed out Rangers received a Nerf this patch based entirely on World Vs World (Unless you think Guard was nerfed because of SPvP)
I’ll believe it when I see it!! (pun intended)
lol
interesting, as most of the bigger and considered best guilds run wvw mostly for the fights, not the scenarios. They even transfer servers to find those fights…
Yea War Machine totally transferred to Kaineng to go meet up in WvW just to find fights.
Jang Gun
I am War Machine’s GW2 lead officer Jang Gun.
I am deeply disillusioned about the current NA T1 match up.
People currently do all sorts of things to win: play the game in a wrong way, plant spies in the the other servers’ guild and/or commanders, pm spamming all kinds of abusive words and making cynical remarks.
I, even until just now, received a lot of those pm spamming from unspecified persons from SoS. Looking at these people who apologize and pretend to be gentle on the forums while using abusive words and lying from behind, I ask myself if there has been any enemy that have been uncivilized and low leveled as them in the past gaming experience.
On the other hand, I am very disappointed by Arena Net who have been neglecting WvW and focusing PvE more and developers who cannot react to such a small bug fast enough.
I can say for sure that during the past 5 months from August to December, War Machine and I have never played the game in a unintended or wrong way. Enemies who fly around with the orb, jump over the wall to break the altar, and laying dead for several hours to be resurrected to take the same keep over and over. While I look at these enemies who think them as tactics to be proud of, I ask myself if I am not thinking correctly.
Earlier today I was thinking, “if you play dirty, I will react the same way.” Then we jumped over the cliff of the garrison and took two of them pretty fast. Then I also thought WM should now focus on finding every possible bug and exploit that exist in the game like everyone else is doing then make fun of the enemies.
For the past hours I haven’t been in WvW and thought about a lot of things.
Then I came to a conclusion. We don’t want to play dirty. We don’t want to play with/like low leveled players and pretend to be the king on top proud of ourselves.War Machine and I will leave this disgusting T1 match up and will be heading to Kaineng, where we occasionally trained. A place where we give away all the benefits and advantages and only focus on fighting skills. We will not be like some others who bandwagons to another strong server and pretend to be the kings. It will be a tough and long journey, but in order to help a bit in saving the dying WvW and lower tiers, we are leaving T1.
If you want to join the trip to hell come join.
P.S. We will miss SBI.
War Machine obviously left for that server because they thought the World vs World match would matter more boggle
interesting, as most of the bigger and considered best guilds run wvw mostly for the fights, not the scenarios. They even transfer servers to find those fights…
It’s because most of the big guild figured out long ago that WvW Matches themselves are decided entirely on population…..There is no skill involved…..Take X keep for the 20th time became mundane months ago..It’s why people have wrote off the game already… If it wasn’t f2p it would already be experiencing the massive population drops the previous MMO’s to come out have experienced…Though since its F2P its population drop is probably less pronounced then those games…
However because its f2p they’re not getting money in they hoped…..That’s why the development process has slowed to a crawl…It’s why things like Culling exist…or Bleed Caps..
The whole notion that Class Balance shouldn’t be a concern in a point based PvP system is also frankly the dumbest thing i’ve heard in my entire 15 years of MMO gaming.
Not everyone is playing World vs World for the point based system, As soon as you get that into that thick head of yours, the better off you will be.
I repeat, Not everyone cares what tier you are, Hell most don’t care frankly about the WvW system at all besides actually fighting other players…Because all the hype around the best server went away last year.
All of this supports that you know WvW might actually balanced already which is why Elementalists haven’t been nerfed hard and thieves havent been nerfed in 5 months.
I have already stated before that I know people play WvW how they want and I do the same. That doesn’t change the fact of what WvW is about does it? Not in the slightest.
I beg to differ about people not caring about WvW you think everyone thinks like you which is why your arguments don’t hold any weight. I am voicing my opinion but I know other people don’t feel the same as I do. I also am not diluted into thinking that most people playing WvW think its some free for all Call of Duty death match.
The first page of WvW has 27 topics on it
This thread has 325 replies right now.
There are 3 other threads with more replies on the first page than this one. The threads that usually have the most replies are the matchup threads. Tier 6, tier 4, tier 2 have the most views in it. BG, Kain, TC has over 1000 replies in it alone.
This is not some big issue that you think it is cause most people and Anet get it. WvW is about points and server vs server not about your fantasy Deathmatch balance.
Every class since launch has received Nerfs…I don’t know who you’re kidding..
Hell I’ll point out a Class Balance/Mechanic issue right now related to World vs World that was changed…
Guard from Rangers was nerfed this patch..Why? Because it had a Adverse effect it seems during World vs World.
The cap on Heals compared to AOE’s, that was changed based entirely on World vs World and affected multiple classes…
As for your silly statement of “Look at these threads talking about World vs World” Please son….None of them care about WvW….most of them are just kitten talking one another because that’s really the only thing you can do in World vs World that’s interesting.
Most of everyone knows why a team wins in World vs World….and it has zero to do with skill….and everything to do with population.
That’s why no one takes it seriously anymore.
and the fact you think class balance isn’t an issue because you think thats only important in Death Matches cracks me up..
rofl…
I dont believe you were being sarcastic. I believe youve just read it or been explained it. Sorry. Shame the reading or explanation didnt fully explain how an ele works, and why venoms. Leaving you with a big 0 (nothing) look in your eyes from this post. Now, stealth and culling abuse. Thats what I was discussing. Btw, you dont need more than 1 stealth to take on an ele. Not even a bs from stealth one. Some videos show thiefs doing this with relative ease, and its not a d/d specc.
I highlight stuff when I know I have the tl;dr gang reading. Hence caps. You cant use more than caps 5 max 6 times anyway, as 7 words become meaningless to them. And if you watched the video, he uses his p/d about half of the fight. WHat does he use the rest of the fight?What are you talking about referring to what I bolded in your quote . Get some context please.
Someone said they had trouble fighting D/D elementalists they rely on melee. Right under that post xsorus says D/D elementalists aren’t hard to kill on his thief “Switch to venoms”
Why would a melee thief “switch to venoms” lol. You have to read the posts first before getting all excited and responding come on man. You gotta do better than that.
Venoms might work alright with Power builds, The main thing you want is the Immobilize though the Poison isn’t bad either (those are the two I use) I never really tried that setup though kitten D so I wouldn’t know if they’d work any better then anything else.
If I was going to run one though it’d be the Immobilize.
Though it won’t be nearly as powerful without condition duration.
lol you didnt know you can switch to venoms on the run? I suddenly understand why you dont want culling/stealth bug abuse to be fixed….you know, you switch BACK.
Down under, another pro-hero, who doesnt know how to swich abilities on the run. Well done sir, well done.So sad this post is, but continue to show you lack of knowledge about a thief you and xsorus. Your caps indicate that your post was written quickly and you were excited to jump all over my response thats how I view it and its a good laugh.
I was being sarcastic but I’ll school you on something you could easily search before coming to save your friend who pretty much showed how deep his knowledge of a thief is or he didn’t read at all and replied quickly (hope its the latter)
1) You don’t need any trait to run venoms the cd reduction trait is 20 points into DA. Venoms are a utility.
2) If your running a burst thief build why would you run venoms? At best you would run devourer for the immobilize even still why would you take the cd reduction on 1 venom in a burst build? I am sure you don’t know so you don’t have to bother answering.
Not every thief is running P/D condition spec like xsorus is in his video. Sorry to disappoint you. I use to run it and pretty much know it inside and out. Most people aren’t even running venoms on P/D anyway to begin.
I also didn’t imply that you can’t beat a d/d ele 1v1 but you sure aren’t going to “switch to venom” running s/d and d/p thats you know dumb!
I play a condition based thief, i’m commenting on how you can kill a Ele with conditions via Venoms (hence why I run venom based talents)
If you’re a burst based thief, You can easily burst an ele down…. You of course don’t need Venoms for this.
That only spec I find that has real trouble with ele’s on a thief is Sword/Dagger… Just because it’s a little slower on the burst..I mean it can be done…But its much harder then D/D Burst builds or P/D Builds
Granted those are the only ones i’ve played, I imagine P/P wouldn’t do so great…though Dagger/Pistol might work.
I’ve not only soloed Supply camps on my thief, but Towers…
If you think Thieves are somehow weak in this department, you’re mistaken
Give it a bit, and it’ll pop up.
This is me solo killing the champion at the keep, I’d already killed the guards before I bothered to record.
It’s not very hard to do this either….Same method as players, Poison field the mobs and drop caltrops…
I mean…no one was there. I don’t see your point.
I think Xsorus is using this thread to promote his youtube cause these videos don’t prove anything.
Hey everyone subscribe to Xsorus youtube to watch videos of the obvious, thief is the only class in the game that can solo a keep and solo camps!!!
My point is arguing that a Thief who’s running around stealth killing people can’t contribute is silly.
If I come across an undefended keep on my thief I can easily take it, Just like Warcamps..
Pretty much all classes can do that I’m pretty sure with little trouble.
Difference of course being if i’m attacked on my thief i’ll escape while the other classes will probably die.
I never said that you aren’t contributing what I said is that you running around killing people has a small effect on the overall game mode that is WvW.
Your video example didn’t show anything that upset the balance of WvW. Your trolling of those people that took the camp didn’t do anything they still took the camp.
You solo’d a keep I don’t understand what so upsetting to WvW balance in that video either. I still don’t see any good arguments that any of this throws the balance of WvW off in the slightest.
Maybe that is why elementalists didn’t get huge nerfs in WvW and thieves didn’t get nerfed (5 months running) because all these complaints people are making aren’t game breaking. Its not like all the servers in Tier 1 have more thieves and elementalists than the servers below them. If that was the case then I can get behind the complaints but that isn’t why they are in Tier 1.
Most of the these complaints could be valid if it was 5v5 or 3v3 or a duel. Its not any of those things. You could have solo’d on another class the keep and probably more likely to die on another class but the same could have been said about a glass cannon thief. Whats he gonna do go respec to condition and then solo. You also said you got inside because of a hole in the wall that a treb made lol. How does this even prove anything about a thief and or stealth.
Respec your thief to damage with 13-17k hp or whatever you like and lets say 15 points in trick then show me you solo a keep. That is why someone above said 30/30/30/30/30 thief spec. A condition thief has a much easier time soloing a keep than a burst damage thief you should know that.
If you got inside by a hole in the wall that a treb made you didn’t need stealth anyway. I am sure I can find a video of another class soloing a keep that had a big hole in the wall.
What determines the Tier’s has zero to do with the issue at hand, Tier’s are decided based solely on population…T1 Has large population that can cover the maps 24/7, While T8 does not.
That doesn’t mean classes aren’t overpowered in small man fights, Or in large zerg fights, It simply means a Tier has more population then the other.
To even begin to claim that “Well it has nothing to do with why the Tiers are such and such, so they can’t be overpowered” is frankly moronic.
It’s comparing Apples to Oranges.
Hell, Its comparing Apples to a Jet Fighter…Because they’re issues that aren’t remotely related at all.
The whole notion that Class Balance shouldn’t be a concern in a point based PvP system is also frankly the dumbest thing i’ve heard in my entire 15 years of MMO gaming.
Not everyone is playing World vs World for the point based system, As soon as you get that into that thick head of yours, the better off you will be.
I repeat, Not everyone cares what tier you are, Hell most don’t care frankly about the WvW system at all besides actually fighting other players…Because all the hype around the best server went away last year.
Now I realize you’re scared that thieves might be nerfed, and you might actually have to step up your game and learn to play a class that requires at least a small amount of skill. But I have faith in you….It’ll take some time, But you’ll eventually get there.
If you come across a D/D ele, switch to venoms
D/D ele’s aren’t hard to kill on a thief..
Both my Ranger and Thief mow through them rather easily.
The only class that gives me trouble 1v1 is a P/D Thief
I am running PI though, so that will make some classes easier then usual (Elementalist for example).
Engineer’s are kind of a joke to be honest.
Same with Guardians.
I’ve not only soloed Supply camps on my thief, but Towers…
If you think Thieves are somehow weak in this department, you’re mistaken
Give it a bit, and it’ll pop up.
This is me solo killing the champion at the keep, I’d already killed the guards before I bothered to record.
It’s not very hard to do this either….Same method as players, Poison field the mobs and drop caltrops…
I mean…no one was there. I don’t see your point.
I think Xsorus is using this thread to promote his youtube cause these videos don’t prove anything.
Hey everyone subscribe to Xsorus youtube to watch videos of the obvious, thief is the only class in the game that can solo a keep and solo camps!!!
My point is arguing that a Thief who’s running around stealth killing people can’t contribute is silly.
If I come across an undefended keep on my thief I can easily take it, Just like Warcamps..
Pretty much all classes can do that I’m pretty sure with little trouble.
Difference of course being if i’m attacked on my thief i’ll escape while the other classes will probably die.
It’s got zero use now.
Nerf or no nerf, Xsorus, me and my friends in TS had a good laugh watching your thief video. Seriously, you are bloody horrible and your enemies are even worse. How do you even find these people?
They’re pretty bad, Honestly though the worst player’s i’ve come across have been some SoR and JQ players..
I use to kill droves of SoR players like it was going out of style..
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