Guild Wars 2

Don’t forget arcane precision for multiple-attunement procs (it is worthless at the moment, it requires a buff), and evasive arcana for multiple-attunement dodge spells.

I wholeheartedly support this thread and I really hope the devs will read this with a more open mind than “50% damage bonus is OP”.

To the entire elementalist community, please post here to support this idea. We need the devs to understand our concerns and we need them to understand how we play.

For better lingering elements!

Given that the product of all damage is “Offense”

I think you mean the sum of all damage, not product.

Anyway it looks like you are trying to saying something close to this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Build-Analysis/first

While it is helpful, this has very little value in PvP because fights can hardly be modeled on a spreadsheet.

The devs do not understand the elementalist class.

ImProVocateur.5189:

The product of two numbers is always largest if the numbers are equal.
3×3=9
3×2=6
3×1=3

3×4=12 > 9

And I still have no idea what you are talking about because you are not clear and I have no energy to waste on unclear theories when I see they are likely wrong.

Like Sabull said : give us pictures showing that the wiki formula fails, and then we will get interested.

It is almost impossible to understand anything from your posts or your calcs because you are using your own weird terms. If you have a point to make, please make it, but be clear.

I tried in game and I hit the heavy golem for tooltip -1 damage (stable, with/without amulet) wich is perfectly consistent with the damage formula.

I have no idea what you are on, but if there is something we have been doing wrong then you need to explain it clearly and with proof (understandable proof).

JonPeters.5630:

I do agree that the 5 point minors need looking at. I think the Earth and Water ones are in an ok place right now but Fire and Air need work.

Jon

So you are completely discarding the idea of lingering all passive bonuses?
And there goes a huge potential fun factor …

Arcane precision also needs some attention.

haviz.1340:

Olba.5376:

Yeah and the other five professions have nothing like that. At least you have the option for permanent Vigor at all. If a Warrior wants permanent Vigor, they’re going to need 20 points into Tactics, an additional 40% boon duration and a Warhorn offhand. Put that trait of yours for 20 points for Warrior into just about any traitline and people would sing praise.
The December 10th patch is also going to reduce the Vigor access of a Thief to half of what it is right now.

This is actually funny you brought warrior as an counter example. Every decent pve warrior build has 4.5 dodges every 20s, elementalist with perma vigor has 4. Warrior can also spend adrenaline to get another dodge and let’s not mention 8k more hp, more passive damage reduction and more blocks. They don’t need vigor at all.

They also provide more support and require much less attention to play correctly.

So you are telling me that you deal 4% more damage than tooltip on the heavy golem?
Or that damage on the heavy golem is 4% higher than expected with the normal formula (coefficient . power . weapon strength . modifiers) ?

BlackBeard.2873:

\
I have heard it worked like this at some point in alpha/beta and was WAY OP. You could get +26-30% damage very consistently, maybe even +40%, which is absurd.

The build I run (10/30/10/10/10) has +35% “permanent” damage and I still deal less damage than most warriors, I have less health, less armor, I can dodge less and I give less support (compared to banners + FGJ).

Also for those who think 40% (for 3 seconds) is a big boost, you should know that most PvE builds run perma 35% boosts (10/20/10/10/0 +20) and LH builds can get 60% (25/0/25/20/0) on vulnerable foes, and yet the class isn’t considered to be top tier because this comes at high costs and requires very specific conditions.

So no, Jon, I do not think this is overpowered.

JonPeters.5630:

I think this trait needs better wording. I hope you all understand why that trait would be wildly overpowered if it carried over everything particularly all 10% damage bonuses. You could simply slam through all attunements and then get 50% bonus damage. Similarly making other things work with this would requires those traits get lowered in the base case as well. I think this is a fine 15 point minor trait on its own and we can reword it and then discuss the merits of the other traits on their own.

To me, that is a better starting point for discussion than attempting to balance all of these effects with how they might work with a minor trait in Arcana. That would predicate the entire profession around that trait which is not what we want out of our minor traits.

Jon

With 10/20/0/10/15 (+15 points) you would be able to have 40% damage boost on vulnerable targets (not 50%) for less than 5 seconds (swapping cooldown) at the expense of two attunement cooldowns.

This does not seem soo unreasonable to me.

So you are telling me there is a base vulnerability of 4% flat?

Belorn.2659:

Don’t forget One with Fire, even if no one uses it.

read this post:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/all-you-really-need-to-do-for-an-ele/first#post2785590
(Jon if you have a minute you may want to read it too)

JonPeters.5630:

Zelyhn.8069:

JonPeters.5630:

Lingering Elements
All passive bonuses for that attunement should linger. This means Flame Barrier, Stone Flesh, Soothing Mist, and Zephyr’s Speed.

These are not all passive bonuses.

But thank you for taking the time to reply.

Edit: and thank you for making a trait that could be the highlight of the class be so pathetic.

Give me a list of what else you think might be considered a passive benefit of these attunements, and I am happy to discuss the merits of this stuff working with this trait. However, posts that say things like “this isn’t everything” are just not constructive.

Thank you for your attention and pardon my mood. Here is a list of some passive bonuses that should benefit from lingering elements:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Internal_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Air_Training
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strength_of_Stone
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Piercing_Shards
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Precision (to double proc if two attunements are active)

The potential of this trait has been discussed many many times in several thread over the past year. Many elementalists agree that it could the highlight of this class, and that it could bring fun as well as diversity.

Kaleban.9834:

Ryld.1340:

Ele’s can already do a ton, if not the most, damage. We’re just squisher then any other class if we do.

I don’t really consider having three other players dedicating their builds to support just so one Ele can LH for at most 30 seconds out of every 60 a viable build, seeing as how it ignores our core profession mechanic of attunement switching and locks us out of all of our weapons.

Even with a 30 Fire/30 Air build we’re still easily outpaced in the DPS race by most of the other professions who also possess much more inherent survivability. What is it about this that people fail to grasp?

You forgot to mention that we fail in support: a warrior with banners and FGJ buffs the group much more than an ele with persisting flames and elemental attunement.

rizzo.1079:

Xae Isareth.1364:

At least it had a point. Traits like that Guradian trait that halves falling damage just had no purpose to begin with

All classes have a trait that halves falling damage.

And lingering elements is a minor master trait (compulsory) in an almost compulsory trait line.

But Hey! they are destroying the trait line, so no worries right?? Yahoo!

The devs do not understand eles.

Gorni.1764:

Zelyhn.8069:

Can you please tell us how Lingering Elements will be fixed on 26/11?
Thanks.

would be nice if a DEV could answer that

They eventually did:

JonPeters.5630:

Lingering Elements
All passive bonuses for that attunement should linger. This means Flame Barrier, Stone Flesh, Soothing Mist, and Zephyr’s Speed.

Yep. You are reading correctly.
Then cannot even understand that minor adept traits are far from being all attunement passive bonuses.

This trait is going to be so useless, but at least it will be bugfixed, yay!

I am making a warrior, any ideas for color of the eyes ?

What is armor vulnerability?

I got a reply from Jon:

JonPeters.5630:

Lingering Elements
All passive bonuses for that attunement should linger. This means Flame Barrier, Stone Flesh, Soothing Mist, and Zephyr’s Speed.

Well, they can’t even word what they mean. I am amazed.

What they mean is that all minor adept traits’ effects will linger for 5 seconds on attunement swap.

These are far from being all attunement passive bonuses.

Since zephyr’s speed and flame barrier are so useless, basically they are making this work for Rock Barrier.

Yay!

This is how you make a trait that could be the highlight of the class be so complete rubbish.

Actual damage on a 2600 armor target is the same as that of the tooltip.

(Before damage modifiers)

JonPeters.5630:

Lingering Elements
All passive bonuses for that attunement should linger. This means Flame Barrier, Stone Flesh, Soothing Mist, and Zephyr’s Speed.

These are not all passive bonuses.

But thank you for taking the time to reply.

Edit: and thank you for making a trait that could be the highlight of the class be so pathetic.

JonPeters.5630:

Sorry I got to you guys last, I truly did just go through these in alphabetical order.

The letter L, is not in the alphabet for you?

Lingering Elements !!

We want to know how this trait is going to be bugfixed (after being bugged since release). Is this too much to ask for?

No one understands what you are doing, sorry!

I just want to know whaaaaat ….!!

garethh.3518:

Belorn.2659:

Zelyhn.8069:

Burning stacks in duration.

This only gets into effect if the target is kept burning and if you trigger Burning Precision and Flame Barrier 4 times to get the 328 synergy damage from this trait. Seems lackluster to me.

Bonus 25% burn duration is a pain in the kitten to actually make good use of (if you stack tons of burning in an attempt to stop the rounding, it will get cleansed), and the rewards for the effort just aren’t even remotely worth it.
It’s a bad trait idea.

Ah yes, we can discuss the strength of the idea. But it does synergize, that is my point.

Belorn.2659:

Zelyhn.8069:

Burning stacks in duration.

This only gets into effect if the target is kept burning and if you trigger Burning Precision and Flame Barrier 4 times to get the 328 synergy damage from this trait. Seems lackluster to me.

Dagger: drake’s breath gives long duration burning
Scepter: auto attacks + dragon tooth allow you to maintain long burning
Staff: long duration burning spell

So you can benefit from the extra 25% easily, and procs will benefit from it.

Burning stacks in duration.

Can you please tell you how Lingering Elements will be fixed on 26/11?

I am tired of waiting and asking, just give us the information or tell us you don’t know yet.

Belorn.2659:

Zelyhn.8069:

Belorn.2659:

Ember’s Might: 25% increased burning duration looks uninteresting both by the math, and as a choice. It for example do not synergies at all with other burning traits like Burning Precision and Flame Barrier. It would make more sense to add a secondary effect when burning is applied (Torment?), so it would synergies with Elementalist many skills that do apply burning but for a very short duration.

How does it not synergizes with these traits?

Because burning cause damage per second. 1 second of burning or 1.25 seconds of burning cause the same amount of damage.

Ok so you mean “because they round-down”.
You argument is not valid: it does synergize, actually it cannot synergize more.
There is a chance that this trait will have little effect if you apply little burn, but if you apply a lot then its affect is definitely noticeable.

Belorn.2659:

Ember’s Might: 25% increased burning duration looks uninteresting both by the math, and as a choice. It for example do not synergies at all with other burning traits like Burning Precision and Flame Barrier. It would make more sense to add a secondary effect when burning is applied (Torment?), so it would synergies with Elementalist many skills that do apply burning but for a very short duration.

How does it not synergizes with these traits?

Jon if you are still reading this thread would you please care to tell us how Lingering Elements will be fixed ??

Should we really have to wait 22 more days until we know how Lingering Elements will be bugfixed?

How can we evaluate the significant arcana nerfs coming for December 10 if we have no information on Lingering Elements?

But Guang said staff is godly for godly men ??

Jon can you please let us know how the bugfixed Lingering Elements trait is going to work?
- only with adpet minors?
- with all attunement specific traits?
- will arcane precision be able to proc two effects if you have two attunements active?

Until we know how Lingering Elements are going to be fixed there is no way to evaluate the arcana changes.

Can we get more information on the bugfix of Lingering Elements please?

Neko.9021:

Put it ANYWHERE in the Air Tree short of being a Major Grandmaster Trait. But locking it so deep into the Arcane tree makes it very difficult for glass Ele builds to gain access to it.

Pleaaase do this!!

Haha it took you a long time guys!

I am in a trip by the way, but next week I will be able to work on finishing the re-writing of my guide, do some more data-mining and progress on my rotation calculator. On this topic I have a question and I would like the opinion of the community. It is easily doable for me to make a rotation calculator if I use the (unrealistic) assumption that no attunement swap may occur mid-cast. This would tend to result in slightly pessimistic figures. However it would make this tool bery simple to use: you will just have to input the succession of skills included in your rotation. Is this assumption acceptable for a first version of my totation calculator? Please let me know.
Also I am wondering about the level of freedom I should give to the users:for example if they input skills with mechanical errors (such as cooldown not valid or wrong attunement etc) should I give a warning message?
Let me know what you think

Jarek.2430:

0 Attunement CD

go high boon duration

15/15/20/15/15

No need for a weapon; be the attuning Ele and rotate through the attunements as quickly as possible.

Fire (15)
Sunspot – inflict damage at your location when you attuen to fire

Air(15):
One with air: superspeed when attuning to air
Eletric Discharge: strike target bolt of lightning when attune to air

Earth (20):
Stone Flesh: Gain tougness when attuned to earth
Earthen Balst – damage and cripple (3secs) when attuning to earth
Rock solid – grant stability to nearby allies when attuning to earth

Water (15)
Soothing Mist – regenerate health
Healing Ripple – heal nearby allies when attuning to water
Cleansing wave – remove condition to yourselve and allie when attuning to water

Arcane (15)
Arcane Fury – gain fury when you switch attunements
Lingering Elements – attunement bonues linger after leaving that attunement
Elemental Attunement – when attuning to an elmeent (might, regen, swiftness, protection)

Constant – stability, might, regen, swiftness, protection, superspeed, fury, toughness to self
Continuous – stability, might, regent, swiftness, protection, condition removal, and heals to allies
Continuous PBAOE ( Fire and earth damage – with constant cripple) to enemies.

Yes please.

See you at level 90!

I heard someone developed an excel tool to compute dps

For as long as it pleasures me to slay wild rabbits with the lightning whip my elem casts I should be fine

oZii.2864:

LordByron.8369:

P.S. 10% difference (or more) is not an extremely small boost…

The weapon damage is where the damage is at so it looks like 1.10 and the Normal exotic damage looks like 1.0.

It’s more like exotics are 1.0 and ascended are 1.05

Hey you should submit your bugs in the appropriate thread

haviz.1340:

DEKeyzToChaos.7381:

For suboptimal groups, 30/30/0/10/0 is okay damage and Zel and I think it’s a lot of fun to play (though he’ll toss that /10/ into earth or arcane). T

He’d toss that into arcane after he was struck by cupid.

The things love makes me do!

Am I the only one here to have seen a Dolyak solo Lupi almost to phase 3 ?

Yes I have already made a calculator for direct damage, and I am working on a rotation calculator. You will hear from this soon enough

As for arc lightning, there is a cast time, a channeling time and an aftercast time. I will refine this information in the thread as soon as possible.
Ability queuing has no effect here: we recorded all times with auto attacks as a reference. Auto attacks are not client-side generated.
The maximum error you may encounter here is by 0.05 seconds (due to our frame counting method).

Cast: time during which the casting bar of the skill is filling up. At the end of the casting time the spell is in effect.

Aftercast: taking place at the end of a cast, it is the time during which your character cannot cast anything.

Can you tell me which scepter skill you are talking about?

I like two things in this game: elementalists and fractals.
Both are dead and dead.
Meanwhile, we get living story. The contrast is astonishing
“Collaborative development” gives me nausea, it’s so cheap …

The masses have spoken, what they care about is living story.
The devs are incredibly slow at fixing and polishing stuff but the masses don’t care because all they want is shinies.
Somedays it looks like we picked the wrong game to love.