Guild Wars 2

Excalibur.9748:

bhagwad.4281:

Excalibur.9748:

bhagwad.4281:

DarksunG.9537:

bhagwad.4281:

And like I said, this challenge is limited not just by aptitude but by how much gold you can pay out.

That is absolutely not true.. There is no direct causal link between the gold you pay in the tournament & winning. I’m sure there are some people good enough to get it on the 2nd & 1st try, just because they are better players.

I think we also need some perspective on things too. The way people talk about this it’s like they’ll never get to see their son again as he goes off to a Colombian prison.

The mere existence of players who got it in the first or second try does not negate the fact that there’s a connection. If I didn’t have 14g to spare, there’s no way I would have been able to afford the 150 or so tries it took for me to finally beat her.

come on cheer up, you got the mini in the end. isn’t it worth it?

It was a pretty horrible experience and not one that I’m eager to ever repeat again. Two weeks later if Anet brings out more impossible stuff like this, my obsessive need to get loot might just give me a heart attack and die.

I was able to do it this time. What if next time I can’t? Content should be tough in such a way that a dedicated player with time and patience, skill, and the inclination to observe and learn should be able to beat it eventually.

This particular challenge though…seems that some people will never be able to do it no matter what they’re willing to put in.

why do you say that even though you cleared it through patience, skill and inclination to observe and learn eventually? what makes you think others won’t be able to do the same?

1. It’s a time bound event.
2. It costs money – like 13g for me
3. You need top of the line gear. Easy enough for those who’ve been around. But not for others
4. Even if you’re fully geared your build might not be suitable.

Hold this in the heart of the mists and you’ll suddenly see the complaints die out.

Lue.6538:

bhagwad.4281:

Never want content like this in the game again. I just beat her, but that was a harrowing two days. Don’t want to put myself through it again.

Of if you are, then stage it in the heart of the mists without penalties, no armor breakage, and the ability to choose any setup you want.

What, so you can complain about Anet favouring PvPers all of a sudden? No, nay, never.

Wha? How does anyone lose by having it in the heart of the mists. You know all gear and traits are free right?

painHV.3968:

I don’t understand your logic. If it wasn’t fun for you, why did you continue to do it? It seems like your own fault for putting yourself in such stress.

I play the game to do things I enjoy. I don’t enjoy grinding dungeons, nor JP’s. So I don’t do them.

Simple.

That’s the difference. I play for shinies. Fun may be a factor but only when I get shinies as a reward. Fun is a by product. A side effect. It’s never the prime motivation. At least for me.

I’m like a donkey. I need a carrot in front of me to make me do anything.

Excalibur.9748:

bhagwad.4281:

DarksunG.9537:

bhagwad.4281:

And like I said, this challenge is limited not just by aptitude but by how much gold you can pay out.

That is absolutely not true.. There is no direct causal link between the gold you pay in the tournament & winning. I’m sure there are some people good enough to get it on the 2nd & 1st try, just because they are better players.

I think we also need some perspective on things too. The way people talk about this it’s like they’ll never get to see their son again as he goes off to a Colombian prison.

The mere existence of players who got it in the first or second try does not negate the fact that there’s a connection. If I didn’t have 14g to spare, there’s no way I would have been able to afford the 150 or so tries it took for me to finally beat her.

come on cheer up, you got the mini in the end. isn’t it worth it?

It was a pretty horrible experience and not one that I’m eager to ever repeat again. Two weeks later if Anet brings out more impossible stuff like this, my obsessive need to get loot might just give me a heart attack and die.

I was able to do it this time. What if next time I can’t? Content should be tough in such a way that a dedicated player with time and patience, skill, and the inclination to observe and learn should be able to beat it eventually.

This particular challenge though…seems that some people will never be able to do it no matter what they’re willing to put in.

DarksunG.9537:

bhagwad.4281:

And like I said, this challenge is limited not just by aptitude but by how much gold you can pay out.

That is absolutely not true.. There is no direct causal link between the gold you pay in the tournament & winning. I’m sure there are some people good enough to get it on the 2nd & 1st try, just because they are better players.

I think we also need some perspective on things too. The way people talk about this it’s like they’ll never get to see their son again as he goes off to a Colombian prison.

The mere existence of players who got it in the first or second try does not negate the fact that there’s a connection. If I didn’t have 14g to spare, there’s no way I would have been able to afford the 150 or so tries it took for me to finally beat her.

Never want content like this in the game again. I just beat her, but that was a harrowing two days. Don’t want to put myself through it again.

Of if you are, then stage it in the heart of the mists without penalties, no armor breakage, and the ability to choose any setup you want.

Mesmer, berserker with centaur runes and mirror for heals. sc+p/sw+focus.

Armor is low so I took mango pies to regenetate to counter her auto attac in phase 1.

In phase 2, just constantly run around the rooms spawning iberserker and duelist whenever you can. Don’t stop, don’t look around. Use Veil to get swiftness and follow that with mirror heal to proc swiftness from centaurs. Perma swiftness cancels out crippled, and weakness doesn’t matter since your phantasms are doing the damage.

You don’t need line of sight to cast phantasms and you can do it while running. Don’t ever stop. After some close calls, when I finally beat her I realized I didn’t have to dodge even once while running around the room. Save your dodges for when you get pulled and need an escape.

Utilities, feedback, decoy and blink though I never used decoy and used feeback whenever I can to reflect her projectiles back at her. If she’s whirling around the veil, phantasm and feedback all send her damage back to her.

Bottom line. Just run. Never stop, don’t look back. Dodge to create clones and Liadri will stay off your back. After using Veil, you can detonate it to pull her back if she’s just behind you.

After trying on warriors and guardians for two days I never thought I’d be able to do it with my mes. Strange how things turn out.

Somoe.3621:

Sorry, but the idea of “I should be able to get something if I throw enough of my time at it” doesn’t apply here. Anet intentionally designed the Queen’s Gauntlet as a measure of player skill, not time or effort.

It’s just a couple achievement points and a mini pet, so what if you’re not skilled enough to get it? You have just as much of a chance to get the mini as all of the other people that have earned it, it’s a level playing field. It’s actually quite silly that you made this post because there need to be more skill-gated items like this. VERY few rewards in the game currently require a noticeable amount of skill or finesse to obtain.

I’m not trying to be a jerk or anything, but your post honestly just made you come across as really selfish. :/

It would be a level playing field if it was done in the heart of the mists where anyone can choose any armor/build they want. And no entry fees that favor the rich.

If that happens, we can talk about “level playing field”.

So…I finally managed to kill her. With phantasms and perma swiftness and lots of clones to distract and veil to pull back. My hands are still shaking. Now I can eat. I can sleep. I can make sweet love to my wife!

But….

I don’t want to go through this nonsense again. It’s too stressful. Every two weeks if Anet comes up with challenges like this I’ll die of a heart attack and stress. And as a mesmer I have non direct damage abilities that most other classes can only dream of. So it’s not fair. Not one whit.

Content should be accessible to all (or most) players given enough time and patience. This kind of stuff is just…absurd.

Lord Erik.6903:

bhagwad.4281:

Navzar.2938:

So then they’re the middle ground between childishly easy and not possible that you were saying doesn’t exist?

“Middle ground” isn’t one monolithic level of difficulty. What you want to aim for is content that most people can do if they work really hard at it.

Precisely. It’s somewhere between people who have the attention span of a rodent who aren’t willing to give it a few try’s, and people who want it to an unhealthy extreme.

So….I shouldn’t want the rewards? Why play then?

Navzar.2938:

So then they’re the middle ground between childishly easy and not possible that you were saying doesn’t exist?

“Middle ground” isn’t one monolithic level of difficulty. What you want to aim for is content that most people can do if they work really hard at it.

Navzar.2938:

You’re complaining about there being no middle ground. What are the other bosses then?

The bosses are challenging, but there could certainly be something after that. Not a sudden exponential leap that puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.

Finally with the latest patch where players have to get into arenas solo with bosses Anet has acknowledged that team play is not the be all and end all of competitive play. Going solo and relying entirely on your own skills definitely has a place. Just look at the amount of experimentation and new builds that are coming out to beat Liadri.

Is this a prelude to dueling in the mists? God I hope so!

Navzar.2938:

bhagwad.4281:

Navzar.2938:

So you’re saying you consider the other bosses to be childishly easy, yet Liadri to be impossibly difficult?

I did?

bhagwad.4281:

Like I said above, it’s not a choice between no poss and childishly easy.

I’m missing the part where I said the bosses were childishly easy. Could you please point that out?

Bovinity.8610:

There’s a clear order of magnitude of difference between Liadri and the others with gambits.

That was kinda the point. There’s 11 bosses that get a little harder and harder and then one that’s really hard at the end. That’s the design. Not really sure what about this is posing such a challenge of comprehension.

Are you seriously saying that the imagination of the developers is so poor that they were unable to come up with anything harder than the other bosses with gambits and Liadri?

That’s a pile of words that barely makes sense in the context. The gauntlet scaling difficulty is exactly as the developers intended.

Of course that’s what the developers intended. My point is to try and convince them to change their philosophy for next time.

Like I said, I wouldn’t have a problem if this challenge was in the mists.

Navzar.2938:

So you’re saying you consider the other bosses to be childishly easy, yet Liadri to be impossibly difficult?

I did?

Bovinity.8610:

Like I said above, it’s not a choice between no poss and childishly easy.

Just gonna keep repeating that and pretending the other 11 bosses and the gambits don’t exist at all, aren’t you?

There’s a clear order of magnitude of difference between Liadri and the others with gambits. And btw, gambits only speed the process up. They don’t reward you with anything other than time.

Are you seriously saying that the imagination of the developers is so poor that they were unable to come up with anything harder than the other bosses with gambits and less difficult than Liadri?

PvP for example is content that is by definition competitive. And I love playing that. It’s a fair match up…my only regret is that there’s no dueling. But there are no repair costs, no “tokens”…nothing but your skill.

It’s not as if GW2 doesn’t have truly difficult content. PvP is the real combat endgame. But PvE should be a matter of hard work, skill, and patience. Yes…skill. Like I said above, it’s not a choice between no poss and childishly easy.

An example of how to make Liadri challenging instead of impossible for most is to remove the orbs in phase 2. They introduce an element of luck that’s out of place with “it’s just skill” since a random spawn can down you instantly.

There’s plenty that the imagination can come up with. It’s not a false dichotomy between impossible and lol faceroll!

Navzar.2938:

This is a different kind of work to earn this one. Rather directly making progress at the task itself, you have to make progress towards making yourself better. It’s a learning experience.

1. If they really wanted it to be only about skill and improving yourself, they would have put it in the heart of the mists. No armor repair, no tokens costing money.

2. Suppose they designed content so that exactly one person in the entire GW2 playerbase was good enough to do it after a lot of effort. It that reasonable? Probably not. So once we’ve established a limit, the philosophical question comes into play again.

Strangely everyone here seems to think that there are only two options – insanely difficult and impossible to beat for most people….or faceroll. Why have so many completely ignored the middle ground? Requires skilled play…but no such skilled play that most people simply can’t do it regardless of how hard they try to improve?

Bovinity.8610:

Then let Anet openly come out and say it. Say “This reward is only for an elite few. It doesn’t matter how patient you are or how hard you work”. At least then I’ll know where I stand.

Really? Do they really need to come out and personally put a label on every single thing that gets produced? You’re a human being, you don’t need to be told things that are self-evident, like a boss being difficult.

“WARNING: Fire may be hot”

It’s also possible that they made a philosophical mistake with this design. By drawing their attention to it, I’m giving them the chance to correct it.

They’re free to ignore it if they want. So are you. What are you getting so worked up about?

Bovinity.8610:

My question again – who do you design your content for?

I answered that already. Is 99.99% of the content not enough for you, you have to try to paint the entire game design in a negative light simply because there’s one thing you can’t do?

Then let Anet openly come out and say it. Say “This reward is only for an elite few. It doesn’t matter how patient you are or how hard you work”. At least then I’ll know where I stand.

Lord Erik.6903:

I completely agree with you man. I have bad OCD. I literally have serious OCD, and my life revolves around this game. I’ve had that exact same thought cross my mind that this is made for someone better than me that I physically cannot get which is such a wonderful thing to think about it, or not. I never finished the Mad Kings Clock Tower in time, and it was a horrid pill to swallow. Sure it’s coming again, but my mind goes to “yea, but that achievement bar probably won’t count for this year.”

I also didn’t do enough snowball fights in Winters Day so I got an unfilled blemish in my achievement tab. A lot of that was in part, because I was bummed about Winter Wonder Land which I didn’t even bother with ‘cause Mad Kings Clock Tower was still bothering me. I gave Winter Wonder Land one shot, and turned away. A lot of times I feel why even bother playing if I can’t get everything? Looking at an account that has everything is very satisfying, and it in no way means most players will leave especially if there’s content always being added.

I actually get anxiety when a lot of these new events pop up ‘cause of a mini I’ll never have, or a title that came and went. Especially with things like Sanctum Sprint where you’ve got to beat so many other players who don’t have a programed difficulty. After I get the achievement, and go back I do great. I own it like a checkmate against a lone king, but the stress beforehand really impairs my playing ability.

Agreed. I too often dread new content because there may be something that is beyond me and that I’ll waste my time getting. But you just gotta have.

I don’t mind putting in the work and even honing my skills. Just that there are some things…beyond me.

Bovinity.8610:

It’s a question of whose aptitude? Do you design content so that the majority of players find it really hard or so that only a few can complete it? Who are you designing for? Not passing judgement. Just want to know.

99.99% of GW2 is designed such that you can literally just turn on auto attack, get up, go make a sandwich, check your e-mail, feed the cat, come back, and collect a gold medal and treasure chest. There is absolutely no doubt that the game is designed almost entirely with absolutely no significant level of aptitude required whatsoever.

So to point at this one boss and claim that it’s somehow indicative of an unfair or exclusionary attitude in the game as a whole is clearly folly.

A legendary is also supposed to be a rare item. But I can get it if I put in insane amounts of hard work.

You mean insane amounts of farming. Not “hard work”. Again, we’re back to this idea that “time spent” is somehow analogous to something other than simply time spent.

I’ve spent my time learning exactly how to get liadri down to phase 2. I can dodge to the second. What is beyond me is killing her after that with her conditions, and the orbs.

So I have no hesitation in admitting that there are those who are gifted. My question again – who do you design your content for?

No one is saying the boss should not be challenging. Did I say that? Cause I don’t remember saying that. I’m saying it should be very hard for most people. Not impossible for most and very hard for just a few.

Zantetsuken.9051:

So you miss out on a minipet, it’s no big deal. It’s supposed to be a rare item, not something everyone can obtain after a few goes.

That being said, it sucks if you can’t complete it because of PC performance issues, I feel sorry for people that are struggling to beat her because ArenaNet decided not to make it an instanced fight.

A legendary is also supposed to be a rare item. But I can get it if I put in insane amounts of hard work.

Bovinity.8610:

Always thought that hard work and perseverance will pay off. But not now…

Not to be a jerk, but the idea that “Time Spent” somehow equals – or should be a substitute for – aptitude is an annoyingly common thought process both in gaming and in real life.

It’s a question of whose aptitude? Do you design content so that the majority of players find it really hard or so that only a few can complete it? Who are you designing for? Not passing judgement. Just want to know.

And like I said, this challenge is limited not just by aptitude but by how much gold you can pay out.

So far I’ve always known that if I work hard enough, I can get any item in the game no matter how high end. Either a matter of patience, or hard work like laurels and gold. There are some items I don’t care to take the trouble to get like the mini moa, but I know they’re not out of my reach if I put in the effort. Not everything is easy. I’ve slowly been saving up for my legendary and it’s still months away. But I know I can get it given enough time. Hard work…and patience.

With the Liadri min though, I think this might just be out of my reach. I’m around 150 tries, and spent 10g and haven’t been able to beat her. I’ve hardly slept, risked the wrath of my uncomprehending wife and am pretty stressed out. Because I’m beginning to suspect that it takes a little more skill than I currently possess.

Now of course not all players in GW2 have equal skill. But for something like this, I believe such content should be extremely hard for most and normal for some. Not extremely hard for a few and impossible for the rest.

Add to this the fact that it costs money and I can’t keep trying forever. I would be happier if it was done in the mists with no gear breakage and no costs for entry. Then I could actually keep trying. But I’m starting to feel the monetary pinch here.

I’m just sad. For the first time there’s content in the game I can’t achieve merely through hard work even after learning the patters, timing dodges etc because one slip up or bad luck with an orb spawn and you’re dad. Impossible for most. Really hard for a gifted few.

Never before felt like an undercaste. Always thought that hard work and perseverance will pay off. But not now…

:(

Edit: I managed to kill her. But the fact remains that there will be many many more for whom this will be out of reach in terms of skill. At least don’t give something like a mini which is an in game item that people feel they need to have as a collector.

Tharium.7325:

Crazylegsmurphy you make the point about this game being stylised and that’s true but why does that simple fact make it ok to basically have female characters running around in lingerie while male characters get some actual armour? I think a good example is the heavy armour I use on my warrior. On a male it covers him head to toe in plate and chainmail but if I stick that exact same armour on a female character she will have more flesh visible on her legs and chest than actual steel. And ther are multiple other pieces of armour in this game that behave in the same way. Stylised or not the only purpose this divide serves is to offer up digital eye candy for the segment of the male audience who like women that way. I just think it’s rather immature to want all your female characters in video games to show more skin than actual clothing while the men dress in completely normal attire.

And yes you’re right I have a rather low view of men who choose to play female characters in video games, but I should clear up that I was referring only to the men who do this and then only dress their characters in the skimpiest and most impractical armours they can find. And I’ve even had these men literally say that they want their characters to look like prostitutes. So yes I take a dim view on these people, I hope you can understand why. On the other hand I’ve known men who play female game characters that actually take them seriously and kit them out in a believable way. This I’m fine with because it’s not at all disrespectful. I once asked one of these men about why he didn’t dress his female characters up in the skimpiest armours around and he told me that he thought that would be childish and he wanted his characters to look like they would be taken seriously.

I just think that if video games are to be taken more seriously as a form of art like books and movies are then developers should move away from these obvious attempts at titillating the younger male demographic with unrealistic childish depictions of women. While this does can happen in movies it’s much less frequent and far less over the top. Am I so wrong for wanting women in video games to be actual believable characters like Alyx from Half Life or Faith from Mirror’s Edge or Anya Stroud from Gears of War? Or should they all be like Ivy from Soul Calibur because it’s a stylised video game?

When I made my engi I gave her as tough a look at the game would allow. I would have preferred a body type with smaller breasts though, but they weren’t available. Take a look.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

bhagwad.4281:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

kimeekat.2548:

But, you’re right: David is beautiful! Let’s get some David-looking partial-nudes up in the watchknights or the next mechanical mob, with some testicle-bolts Then this design would be closer to equal (though his kitten is still mighty modest compared to this design’s breast size).

Just so I understand what you’re saying. Are you saying that because the Watchknight has implied areola and nakedness, that to be equal a male robot would have to have it’s genitals exposed?

Yep.

Well, that’s just ridiculous.

Like it or not, female chests exposed is not the same as a male chest being exposed. We’re not speaking from a mechanical or a technical point of view, but from a cultural perspective obviously.

Don’t believe me? Take off all the clothes from your GW2 character. Males will have chests exposed. Females will have a covering. Even Anet themselves believe this.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

kimeekat.2548:

But, you’re right: David is beautiful! Let’s get some David-looking partial-nudes up in the watchknights or the next mechanical mob, with some testicle-bolts Then this design would be closer to equal (though his kitten is still mighty modest compared to this design’s breast size).

Just so I understand what you’re saying. Are you saying that because the Watchknight has implied areola and nakedness, that to be equal a male robot would have to have it’s genitals exposed?

Yep.

Talissa Chan.7208:

8 pages. 8! all because someone couldn’t see the beauty of making something in an ideal image. Take david, was the statue a fat balding middleaged guy with gout? no, it was the ideal form of a male in his prime. If you look at david and think “pfft, unrealistic i don’t look like that” then you’re missing the point. If i had the ability to sculpt or create an awesome figure in metal i’d kitten well make a woman i could fall in love with. If you look at that same woman and go “my boobs are’nt that pert, my butts not that perfect…unrealistic..pffft” then its YOUR self worth issue destroying a masterpiece. To then come online and try and have it abused, degraded and removed from the game? just sad. Get off the computer chair, go exercise and read a book on art. Grow up a little.

Wake me up when Anet designers create a male nude character with a prick. A big one – not like David’s little appendage. Actually, let them make a small one first. I’ll go with that

Had to happen huh? Glad I got my farming done today. 20g profit.

Good bye 7. Was nice knowing you.

For me, I have a problem with the forms. But it’s NOT about the following.

1. It’s NOT about feminism or objectifying women
2. It’s not about sexuality or nudity
3. It’s not about getting offended. I’m somehow missing that bone

It’s about a machine – and a very obvious machine at that – having completely extraneous parts that serve no function. Mind you, these machines are NOT being made to look human ala terminator. No skin, no hair, no lips, no eyes. But they have boobs. And bums. And high heels! And that too not normal boobs, bums and heels. Huge, massive ones!

So my problem is this…what are the developers trying to achieve? Are they trying to make them look like women? Obviously not. Are they trying to make them feminine? Possibly. But then they would have had just normal curves, normal waists, and if necessary (though I don’t see how), normal heels.

So I’m left with no conclusion other than the fact that the developers just wanted to put in those parts for kicks to pander to the male player base.

DarksunG.9537:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Shiren.9532:

The audience of the game isn’t you and your personal tastes. Some people might like to see something sexualised. Judging from all the human females running around in skimpy armour I’d say a large number of players care a great deal about that. Are they all people who should grow up because they want something from their fantasy MMO that’s different to what you want?

I don’t think the number of players running around in skimpy outfits, is a good excuse to justify objectification of women in games as a whole. MMO’s especially have a tendency for immature designs, that over-sexualize women. I personally don’t think that’s tasteful, or healthy.

Except there is no factual evidence that this is harmful at all. If it were, people would have equal reaction to ALL the “objectification” in games. It’s really about what you don’t like & other people are ok with. People call it immature because it makes them sound right.

I agree with the person who made this thread. I was actually offended by their design when I first saw them, being a female myself. The reason: Why do they have high heels and huge breasts? The breasts of these “warriors” are function-less, just filled with gears.

Why is the David, the Thinker & Allegory of Sculpture naked? it’s art. you didn’t ask why it has a face or a hat. how are breast any less functional? For all intents & purposes it should be like a Golem.

This is a huge fuss about nothing.

I’ll agree when Anet brings out nude models of men with pricks. But I’m guessing they won’t do that. Hmm….I wonder why.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

bhagwad.4281:

When we talk about practicality we are doing so in the context of the game. So in-game, it’s the Norn’s nature to go shirtles, and asuras are these super tech science dudes so that’s internally consistent. It would weird for example if the Norn’s were to suddenly build a floating city.

You’re not talking about the same thing. What you’ve done is used the appeal to antiquity fallacy. You’re basically saying that because one set of established rules have been around longer, they are therefore true/accepted/good.

bhagwad.4281:

So we’re talking about internal consistence – what we call willing suspension of disbelief as long as the fantasy world plays by its own crazy rules whatever they are.

Exaclty. We agree.

bhagwad.4281:

High heels are not consistent with a scenario of an engineer building robots for defence. The boobs, heels and butts had to be deliberate design choices. As in someone had to sit down and say “Hmm…I’m going to put these in even though they serve no purpose whatsoever”. Since it’s a fact that by default no one starts out thinking in terms of high heels and extra wide hips.

And here is where I disagree.

Again, there is no difference between this design choice, and the choice for Norn to go topless in freezing temperatures. It is no different from Asura creating floating platforms that require crazy jumps to move around cities. It is no different than wearing a dress to fight a dragon.

bhagwad.4281:

So it’s perfectly valid to raise questions. It seems a lot of people here are eager to stifle this whole discussion. Just to be clear – no one is complaining about nudity, sexuality as such. The problem for me is that these are being used to specifically target young male gamers and I find that just a bit insulting that Anet thinks I’m that shallow.

It’ll be nice if we also had bots with sizeable pricks as well. Then I don’t think anyone would object. But we only get female nudes and not males. Why?

Your conclusions are unsupported. You are making assumptions and generalizations.

I find it a bit insulting that you would assume that young male gamers are so out of control and immature that they “get off” on feminine robots. I find it insulting that you assume that the designers created this robot for the purpose of praying off the hormones of young males.

Let me spin this another way. I applaud ANet for including designs that treat me like an adult. Amongst the plethora of cutesy, fuzzy, sanitized designs in this game, ANet finally included a mature design. I thank ANet for assuming that I am mature enough to view the design without getting all bent out of shape at the implied areola, or the shape of it’s robot butt.

Huh? I think you misunderstand what the fallacy means. Please show me where I’ve said or implied that “It’s always been done this way, therefore it’s correct”. In the very next paragraph you say you agree with me. So…you agree with a fallacy now?

Norns going topless fits in with lore. Asura’s building floating cities fits with the game designer’s own explanations of their world. Internal consistency. For example, just because star wars and star trek are fantasy worlds with their own crazy rules doesn’t mean that Kirk can one day start using the Force…because well…it’s fantasy right?

Internal consistency. So Asuras and floating cities – ok. Norns topless – ok. High heels on robots…? Not ok. No consistency. Wearing a dress to fight a dragon is fine if you’re a spellcaster. But if you shout “For Great Justice!” in light armor, that’s stupid.

Internal consistency.

Actually I’m giving young games more credit than you think I am. I’m saying that even though game designers are trying these tactics, they don’t work. So there’s nothing insulting there. And unless you’re a game designer, I don’t see how you can find it insulting.

And finally, by all means create naked robots. Male and female. Also, I would like to know the thought process that went into designing a killer robot with high heels.

I mean…was it random?

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

bhagwad.4281:

Lol. What? I have no objections to nudity male and female. But when there’s only female nudity, I question the motives of the designers.

Fair example. Though they should have put him in high heels (that’s a joke btw). Or if not, with a massive erection just to balance things out. But if I remember correctly, he doesn’t have anything between his legs. So not really a male after all.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

I also wanted to add a thought regarding this “how practical are these robots” discussion.

I have no problem discussing this, but if we’re going to discuss how practical, or impractical these robots are, then we must do so in the context of the game.

In a game where Norns go shirtless, Asura build floating platforms in cities, towns are built in volcanoes, laboratories that require jumping to get through, sharks live under your workspace, etc….it seems a little strange to suddenly be focusing on high heels.

Thats not to say we shouldn’t have a fun discussion about these things, but we need to be very careful to not cross the line and start claiming sexism. These are not practical robots anymore than Robocop, C-3P0, or the many other humanoid robots in media.

They are robots designed with the intention to be interesting to look at. As well, if we want to talk about impractical robots, we really should be discussing the Golems….when has one of those not malfunctioned?

When we talk about practicality we are doing so in the context of the game. So in-game, it’s the Norn’s nature to go shirtles, and asuras are these super tech science dudes so that’s internally consistent. It would weird for example if the Norns were to suddenly build a floating city.

So we’re talking about internal consistency – what we call willing suspension of disbelief as long as the fantasy world plays by its own crazy rules whatever they are.

High heels are not consistent with a scenario of an engineer building robots for defence. The boobs, heels and butts had to be deliberate design choices. As in someone had to sit down and say “Hmm…I’m going to put these in even though they serve no purpose whatsoever”. Since it’s a fact that by default no one starts out thinking in terms of high heels and extra wide hips.

So it’s perfectly valid to raise questions. It seems a lot of people here are eager to stifle this whole discussion. Just to be clear – no one is complaining about nudity, sexuality as such. The problem for me is that these are being used to specifically target young male gamers and I find that just a bit insulting that Anet thinks I’m that shallow.

It’ll be nice if we also had bots with sizeable pricks as well. Then I don’t think anyone would object. But we only get female nudes and not males. Why?

Onshidesigns.1069:

bhagwad.4281:

Onshidesigns.1069:

What is a nipple anyways? How are they a bad thing? If God created them, they can only be good! If evolution created nipples, it just basic anatomy! Since when is sexulzed art bad?

What is a prick anyways? How are they a bad thing? If God created them, they can only be good! If evolution created pricks , it just basic anatomy! Since when is sexulzed art bad?

See what I did there? And it’s not bad. If it’s indeed sexualized, let them admit it instead of pretending it’s consistent with the story or some such other nonsense.

You clearly have no answers to my questions. Because your views are rooted in extreme beliefs that have no place in modern society.

The ideal female and male forms should not be something people should be embarrassed about. It’s represents humanity at it’s best.

Some say not everyone looks that way. I say you don’t know what your spirit looks like after you die.

Lol. What? I have no objections to nudity male and female. But when there’s only female nudity, I question the motives of the designers. That’s obvious. How does the “no place in a modern society” stuff come in?

I think you just projected your attitudes onto me.

Onshidesigns.1069:

What is a nipple anyways? How are they a bad thing? If God created them, they can only be good! If evolution created nipples, it just basic anatomy! Since when is sexulzed art bad?

What is a prick anyways? How are they a bad thing? If God created them, they can only be good! If evolution created pricks , it just basic anatomy! Since when is sexulzed art bad?

See what I did there? And it’s not bad. If it’s indeed sexualized, let them admit it instead of pretending it’s consistent with the story or some such other nonsense.

Brutalistik.6473:

For people arguing about this issue makes me think how they would react in a art museum.

An art museum would have a good mix of male and female nudity. I’d like to see Anet give us robots with a prick. If they do that, we’ll call it art.

I waited 15 minutes just to get in today and then gave up out of frustration. I don’t see how I make any gold at all by just sitting around.

I have yet to play even one round.

neon.4863:

bhagwad.4281:

Bovinity.8610:

I just feel kind of of irritated that Anet thinks I’m so shallow as to care about a robot’s shape.

The bad news is that you’re posting about it, so you must care in some way.

The other bad news is that no one at ANet sat down and said, “Lets make something to turn the male players on.” or “Lets make something to offend female players”

So ultimately you do care, but no one at ANet set out to make you care.

I don’t care about the female figures. I care about the attitude that prompted Anet to create them. It’s like if I don’t care about apple juice, but someone keeps showing me pictures of apple juice thinking I’ll like it, I’ll obviously notice that they’re trying no?

And I’m willing to bet that someone at Anet did sit down and say “Let’s make something to turn the male players on”. What, you think those huge boobs on every female character are a coincidence?

I disagree here. I actually do believe that most of the time the intent is not “let’s come up with something to turn the male players on”. I think most of the time it is to make something attractive, aesthetically pleasing, what have you – not necessarily in a sexual way. But female forms being sexualized in some way or another is so common we, as a collective, regardless of gender, end up playing into the trope without even trying to. It’s internalized more often than not.

This is actually an interesting thing to find out. I wish we could corner a designer and ask:

“If you were developing this game for women and women were your only audience, would your character designs change in general”.

I say yes, they would. Others think it would be exactly the same. It’ll be interesting to find out which is which.

Bovinity.8610:

I just feel kind of of irritated that Anet thinks I’m so shallow as to care about a robot’s shape.

The bad news is that you’re posting about it, so you must care in some way.

The other bad news is that no one at ANet sat down and said, “Lets make something to turn the male players on.” or “Lets make something to offend female players”

So ultimately you do care, but no one at ANet set out to make you care.

I don’t care about the female figures. I care about the attitude that prompted Anet to create them. It’s like if I don’t care about apple juice, but someone keeps showing me pictures of apple juice thinking I’ll like it, I’ll obviously notice that they’re trying no?

And I’m willing to bet that someone at Anet did sit down and say “Let’s make something to turn the male players on”. What, you think those huge boobs on every female character are a coincidence?

Bovinity.8610:

It’s much, much, much easier to just produce some outrage

It’s not outrage. It’s just an observation that it’s blatantly to evoke a sexualized image. I don’t care. I just feel kind of of irritated that Anet thinks I’m so shallow as to care about a robot’s shape.

BrandonBandicoot.3968:

I don’t know how anyone can see these things as sexualized, first time I saw them I though ‘Hey cool shapeshifting robot’.

Then you’re not thinking like a robot engineer. The first thing I thought of was…What kind of kittened design is this. Robots having boobs? Why? What’s the functionality? I mean someone had to actually sit down and think "Hmm…let me put this completely useless appendage on a killer robot.

And while I’m at it, let me also expand their hips thereby making it even less efficient with the boobs already shifting its center of gravity.

So no…looking at those robots and ignoring their form is NOT logical. The form is in place for a very specific purpose that has nothing to do with function.

Dahkeus.8243:

@ Kalathra: This is where the cultural context comes in. Yes, calling something “sexualized” is subjective in that there are no measures for sexual vs nonsexual in the sense that we can’t measure it with a ruler or a scale. However, there are measures of this that are commonly accepted, such as movie ratings. If you put a topless woman in a movie, even if she’s just walking across the street, the movie automatically gets an adult rating. If you don’t show the nipples while this same scene occurs, you can show it to a much younger audience. Because of that, we are all trained, to some degree, to see the revealing of this body part as something tied to a much more adult and erotic situation, hence why “sexualization” comes into play.

I should pause here and say, that if humanity were in a different place, there would be absolutely nothing problematic with putting watchbots like this into GW2. The problem is inherently culture itself.

So, why then, am I criticizing the watchbots? This is because as much as we all like to think that we are immune to the subtle inferences that media and culture make about certain things, we are still human beings and the way we see our world is shaped by them. Even if everyone here in this thread is perfectly able to overcome these inferences and to see these NPCs only as what they are and what they were intended to be, we don’t live in a vacuum.

There will be people who see these NPCs and understand the message that was intended (you can have feminine qualities and kick butt) and there will be people who see them and think “Ooooh, fem bots! I totally want to do one of those!”

I’m not arguing that we need to live on some sterilized society where nothing that can be misinterpreted or taken the wrong way, but as self-critical intelligent people, we need to be aware of the effects that occur when we set up situations that encourage such thinking, even if we don’t intend it to happen.

This is true.

However I’m also willing to bet my left nut that the developers fully knew what they were doing when they put in the big tatas, high heels, and hips.

And since when did “feminine power” necessarily be the perfect figure? Haven’t we all read fantasy novels where the woman didn’t adhere to the stereotype?

Min in wheel of time
Vin in Mistborn trilogy
Paksenarrion in Deeds of Paksenarrion
Malazan books where the soldiers are male and female
etc etc…

Be imaginative folks. If you’re trying to demonstrate women’s power, we don’t need such blatant visual cues shoved down our throats. We’re not idiots.

Slayer Lord.5023:

Alleluia.1320:

Slayer Lord.5023:

Dahkeus.8243:

Slayer Lord.5023:

Why must topics like this happen? Is this what our society has been reduced to? The constant struggle not for equality, but for demands being placed on art. We all have our values, but no one cause should define your life. If your really passionate about your morality then there are so many real life causes you can get involved in.

Perhaps the whole “it’s a video game or it’s art” arguments are overdone, yet they are the most constant and logical ones to make. Even if female body image was on the creators’ brain, does not you noticing it make it on yours as well? That is perspective. Step outside of yourselves from time to time.

Art without criticism isn’t art.

Criticize art about its content and meanings not just " I see metal chests ". That’s all I ask. Some maturity and not just juvenile critiques.

The content and meaning is exactly what’s being debated….

What a double standard put on the female image. What about guys like Superman? Tall, dark, in perfect shape and fearlessly brave. How does that effect my male body image? No, I’m told I have to be that guy.

Yet somehow when the same thing is applied to the female form, this is up for mature debate. It’s just not logical.

Women are less “visual” than men:

Hamann, Stephan, et al. “Men and women differ in amygdala response to visual sexual stimuli.” Nature neuroscience 7.4 (2004): 411-416.
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v7/n4/abs/nn1208.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739403/

Making Superman for women just wouldn’t have the same impact. Now if they had a hot romance going with lots of steamy sex being described, that would turn women on.

But for us guys? Even the most crude visual stimuli can do it.

BrandonBandicoot.3968:

bhagwad.4281:

BrandonBandicoot.3968:

If the mechapricks on the robots were done artistically like the Statue of David and went well with the style of Divinity’s Reach, then why not? The Watchknights are doing that fine with their roboboobs.

Why not indeed. But we don’t see it happening. Don’t you wonder why? Btw, this is the equivalent not just of having a prick, but one that is fully erect and throbbing

Why would it be erect? That would ACTUALLY be implying something sexual, unlike the Watchknights.

And we probably don’t see it happening because it’d lead to a possible M rating unless artistic integrity could be argued well enough. But I wouldn’t be complaining if they could get away with it.

If you notice, the David’s umm…package…is quite small. Extremely tiny in fact in proportion to his body. Video game developers however always make their characters have huge boobs. It’s not random. There’s no getting around the fact that they’re sexualized. Not all women have massive protruberances, but women in this game always do.

Hey, I’m not disputing it’s art. I just want people to admit that it’s not just art. It’s art with a very specific gender based consideration in mind.

Who are we kidding? It may be art, but it’s a very specific kind of art meant to cater to gamers who’re mainly guys. As a gamer myself I like to think I have a bit more depth than that which is what really irritates me.

If it was “just art”, then we’d also have male nude watchknights complete with accessories.

BrandonBandicoot.3968:

If the mechapricks on the robots were done artistically like the Statue of David and went well with the style of Divinity’s Reach, then why not? The Watchknights are doing that fine with their roboboobs.

Why not indeed. But we don’t see it happening. Don’t you wonder why? Btw, this is the equivalent not just of having a prick, but one that is fully erect and throbbing