Guild Wars 2

I have yet to find any single Guardian challenging using a shout-heal condition build. However any thing + a guardian, you can forget about it.

As a power build warrior, you have absolutely no chance against a guardian.

Run as

shout heal conditional, or Hybrid.
Celestrial axe bow

You should not lost to anything 1v1, 1v2 is more of a problem.

Hammer + GS have a good chance against power based LB builds.

However, with conditional or hybrid conditional builds, power based anything would have no chance.

So no, you didn’t loose to a LB build, you lost to the conditions.

I am going to have to say Hammer is much better than Mace. Hammer F1 is 100 times easier to hit than Mace. That alone is enough reason as CI is the only source of condi cleanse. Hammer 4 is AOE, much easier to hit. Hammer 2 does weakness, hammer 3 is an AOE cripple, this build lacks mobility, any chance of keeping the enemy closer is very important.

With that said, I don’t think this build would be that great especially for roaming. Your standard condition build still give you mobility. Even if you don’t care for mobility, celestial AXE bow, would still be more powerful in general since the sudden burst from AXE catch a lot of people by surprise.

Yes, you will just do 5% less damage.

If you prefer more WvW roaming over PvE, then just use Hoelbrak for both. If you prefer PvE more then use strength for both.

combo of Dogged March and Lemon grass is absolutely not enough.

BurrTheKing.8571:

bigmonto.4215:

IMO shout-heal is better than all pure condi builds. Since you got 30% boon duration as part of the build, the might stack is always between 10 to 20 stacks (around 2k condi damage) you are of course still very much unkillable.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTnMdQlHWKIeeAnIGoKoQu4Bgye4GSfCddKA-TFTAABYoEEkDBAFmgMSVFF1HAwJAwMlZh8AAQVtCOOCAjp0on9HIFgiSjA-w

Additionally you can try full celetrial hybrid.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTnMdQlHWKIeeAnIGoKowu4BgueI9J01pAA-TVSAABgcIAiUJ4pq/AwJAIkHAQaK/6Z/BC1HwxRAgUAKKNC-w

80% fury uptime, with 10 to 20 stack of might = 2.2k power with 1700 condi with the same tankiness.

Something I’ve been debating. With the adrenaline changes do you think it might be better to sacrifice the power from Armored Attack and take Inspiring Shots so that you have better burst uptime? It’s a hard choice to make.

For pure condi shout-heal I would say Inspiring Shots for sure. It is basically the same as Burst mastery: combustive shot → weapon switch →shout → flurry works just fine.

As for hybrid, Armored Attack would worth more weight, it is 200 power + 50 healing + 50 toughness. Celestial gear would give you less healing and toughness, Armored Attack make up some of that plus the power.

IMO shout-heal is better than all pure condi builds. Since you got 30% boon duration as part of the build, the might stack is always between 10 to 20 stacks (around 2k condi damage) you are of course still very much unkillable.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTnMdQlHWKIeeAnIGoKoQu4Bgye4GSfCddKA-TFTAABYoEEkDBAFmgMSVFF1HAwJAwMlZh8AAQVtCOOCAjp0on9HIFgiSjA-w

Additionally you can try full celetrial hybrid.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTnMdQlHWKIeeAnIGoKowu4BgueI9J01pAA-TVSAABgcIAiUJ4pq/AwJAIkHAQaK/6Z/BC1HwxRAgUAKKNC-w

80% fury uptime, with 10 to 20 stack of might = 2.2k power with 1700 condi with the same tankiness.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

bigmonto.4215:

I just want to point out that these are the same few guys on this forum to be against any measure on curbing condition builds. To say they are not biased, is a lie.

It is impossible to tell whether it is OPed if toughness affect conditions without knowing how much affect it is going to be.

With that said, conditional meta is not so much of an issue now, as Anet buffed some of power build to be even more OPed.

We’re not against the curbing of condition builds; we just don’t believe there is a problem with them that requires curbing. Many players (including all of them that compete in tourneys) deal with condition builds just fine. I’ve never had issues dealing with condition builds, and I’ll readily admit to not being that great. The fact you bring up “the condition meta” means you are probably one of those players who hasn’t figured this out, because the condition meta never existed.

I don’t know what game you are playing. But condition bunker meta exists, and I use one myself. Yes it is not much of meta in PvE, tPvP, or Wvw zerg, but any type of pvp solo play or roaming, it does exist, and it is very unbalanced.

Now you can argue that the game isn’t balanced on these modes, but some people only enjoying playing these modes, and condition meta is very game breaking. But these days most of the fotm players move to Power Ranger, you have fewer conditional users around, and the condition meta is less of an issue after the patch.

I just want to point out that these are the same few guys on this forum to be against any measure on curbing condition builds. To say they are not biased, is a lie.

It is impossible to tell whether it is OPed if toughness affect conditions without knowing how much affect it is going to be.

With that said, conditional meta is not so much of an issue now, as Anet buffed some of power build to be even more OPed.

Sebrent, I think more than one of us feel that your posts are decisively bias against warriors. Other than seeing your posts pop up every where there is “warrior” in the title, most of us actually don’t take your argument too seriously.

Just so you know comparing mechanics with complete different utility, traits, and functionality around it is just … pointless.

Flitzie.6082:

So, where are all the well-known players that made a name for themselves? I havent seen a word from most of them since patch.
I’ve been sitting on my materials to build an ascended armor set for well over a month now still I have not been able to find the perfect min maxed setup.
I want to see more builds please!

Everyone show us what you run so we can help each other out!

They are all playing ranger of course.

If you are looking for Power based builds, zerker weapon + trinket cannot go wrong. As for armor knight + soldier probably is your best bet. Especially WvW, soldier chest + legging + helm, is your best bet, and don’t even bother with ascended glove, shoulder + boots. If you are really not sure then try Celestrial chest + legging + helm, you can reuse them for hybrid power + condition builds.

But don’t worry about min-max too much, things always change after each patch.

While I still believe GS is better, have you try sw+sw instead of sw+sh?

sw5 block is 15 sec cooldown, with 2.5 sec range block, and a bleed melee counter. These days you are more in danger of from a ranged attack, so sw5 is not a bad choice.

Now you are trading sh4 with sw4, while sh4 is nice, its on a 25 sec cooldown.
sw4’s rip also does decent damage, not to mention the condition on it.

xbutcherx.3861:

bigmonto.4215:

It is amazing how many of you take things so literally.

It is called sarcasm, look it up.

It is not so much 100 b needs buffing (it wouldn’t hurt), but Rapid fire was way over buffed. Given the amount of QQ on the threads, it will get nerfed. The question is when. I am just amazed that it passed QA, or if there is actually a QA in Anet. Judging from the quality of release of late, it certainly doesn’t seem like it.

How is Rapid Fire buffed? I don’t get it. The skills is 7 sec cool down and 2.5 casting time, before it was 7 sec cool down and 5 sec casting time with the same damage.
So please explain how is this buffed up? I’m don’t even play a ranger but numbers does not add up, casting time does not make the skill hit harder, actually you need to wait longer to channel the skill again.

If you don’t think it is a buff, then consider this: what would happen if warrior 100b get 2 sec casting time? It is not always about the total damage.

It is amazing how many of you take things so literally.

It is called sarcasm, look it up.

It is not so much 100 b needs buffing (it wouldn’t hurt), but Rapid fire was way over buffed. Given the amount of QQ on the threads, it will get nerfed. The question is when. I am just amazed that it passed QA, or if there is actually a QA in Anet. Judging from the quality of release of late, it certainly doesn’t seem like it.

If you use any sigil with a charge like intelligence, or doom, if that charge is not used before the mob dies, you will get stuck in combat for a while. I have gotten stuck in combat in pvp a lot because of this, perhaps we can use to our advantage to carry on the adrenaline.

Yeah they should both be master.

CI cannot and should not be grandmaster. Please stop asking for huge nerf in build diversity for no reason.

Furthermore CI’s adrenaline when hit should be based line.

All build are still viable, just that anything with single target burst got nerf harder than others.

IMO hammer + GS is actually better now with xx6x6 build, shout heal condition is still as powerful as ever, same goes with condi bunker. Of course Ham-bow is still just as powerful. Celestial Axe-bow got hit a bit harder though.

The real nerf of this patch comes from the buff of other classes.

BR will never replace CI unless Anet make Adrenaline gain when hit based line. Now that Adrenaline is lost on burst miss, Anet really should make that a based line.

However, BR is extremely powerful IMO. Additional 1 condition per 5 sec on top of CI is really hard to make condition stick.

But Warlord is right BR is optional, where as CI is necessary.

Personally I find that the nerf was not a big deal. However I do think Ranger’s Rapid fire was over buffed. If you find that you are somehow dying more than usual in pvp games, this is probably the reason. After all at least half of the player are rangers now.

AS is a bit weak on damage, somewhat of a disappointment, but it is easy to connect, and very useful. Brawler’s Recovery is very nice, basically warrior are very good a dealing with conditions, cripped, immob, or fear? no problem just switch weapon.

These are the same few condition build defenders I see all the time. I honestly do not know where you guys get the idea that full solider can dish out the same damage as a full dire. Since I play warrior as you all know, I’ll use warrior as the example

Consider the following:

Soldier:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJMQJARSjMdUFahHOewJagqgC9iHAPwprW9Q0DxAA-TVyFABJcIAK4IAckyvqUCOo6PLcBAA4BAoy+DnpLQUQZE-w

Dire
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTjMdU4ZrHeewJagkgC9onBz9pAQdV8ERBA-TlSAABYoEEkDBgi6DA4EAEyDAAV1fewEEHHBgxU+1z+DiCSjA-w

Notice I take out food, so I am not counting the +- 40% condition dur

for solider, a GS auto does 750 on armor of 2600 (a full dire gets 3500)
for dire, a sword auto does 20 sec bleed for 2258 damage that ignore armor

The disadvantage of the bleed is that it can be cleansed, and it takes time. Cleanse means nothing when reapplication greatly out number the number of cleanse available, not to mention cover conditions. Taking longer time also means nothing when these condition can be stacked.

Maybe if the opponent is afk, with optimal rotation, a soldier warrior can put out more dps than a full dire warrior. Otherwise I find it really hard to believe what your claim is true.

I play both power + condition based warrior, I know how easy it is in a condition setup in a small group setting. So please don’t lie to yourselves.

killahmayne.9518:

bigmonto.4215:

Is the new GS going to replace Ham/Bow….. nope. The patch did nothing to Ham/Bow, it will still be as powerful as it is.

But I think AS is a pretty big buff for any build that uses GS. GS is primarily a utility weapon. So far the only way for it to do damage is to pair it with some sort of CC weapon. The introduction of new AS changes that. How this will affect the warrior’s standing will be hard to measure before actually trying it out.

I don’t think a new AS changes that GS needs to be paired with a CC weapon to deal damage. The only thing that changed was that it is now a small AoE around you, and a extra damage above 50% HP threshold. It still seems to need to be paired with CC for a decent chance to land. It’ll only see it’s true effectiveness in certain situations, which means in many situations it will still be a normal Arcing Slice.

I think the damage nerf to whirlwind and hundred blades offsets this new revamp

I just watch the video, it might root you or might not, but I felt that the activation is really fast. So I doubt the target really can see it coming. I am welling to bet you can land it more often than not. Probably easier than Flurry, which I don’t have that much issue landing. Since AS doesn’t have a lead-in like a leap from earth shaker or evis, I think it will be a game changer for GS especially we have many gap closer for the GS. The troubling fact is that above 50%, AS doesn’t do a huge damage, but at least we can use it to proc CI. Of course we will see how well it actually works after the patch release. It is unlikely Anet will change its mind anyways.

Is the new GS going to replace Ham/Bow….. nope. The patch did nothing to Ham/Bow, it will still be as powerful as it is.

But I think AS is a pretty big buff for any build that uses GS. GS is primarily a utility weapon. So far the only way for it to do damage is to pair it with some sort of CC weapon. The introduction of new AS changes that. How this will affect the warrior’s standing will be hard to measure before actually trying it out.

Juba.8406:

bigmonto.4215:

So Sw2 close the gap wait out any potential dodges, then Sw f1

the thing about Savage Leap is, like it got some huge aftercast, it never been a reliable setup for Flurry and then you have to add the 0.5s activation time for Flurry too, making it a no go skill unless you trait Leg Specialist.

and on top of that in my experience almost 90% of my opponents will dodge after you hit em with Savage Leap, moving them 300 range from you which means you are not in melee range any more.

Sw2 → sw f1 will hit the target if they don’t dodge. If they do after sw2, dodge with them if you really have to land your f1, if not do something else. Don’t tell me you can’t close the gap with your warrior. I don’t often use sw2 as the setup, but you know its a great way to bait dodges.

Personally I had easier time to land sw f1 than axe f1.

Warlord.9074:

Things we dont agree on.
Needing to stow weapon. Yes in fact you do need to do this if you land the burst skill then want to use final thrust while the target is immobilized.

How much damage it does. Lets be pretty clear that the majority of swords damage is located on final thrust. Not the burst skill and certainly bleeds on their own are not viable in competitive levels of PVP. The physical part of flurry is crap. It not only grants zero adrenaline but and auto attack does more damage. Since you are stowing weapon to use final thrust the bleeds are inconsequential further more you can do just as much bleeding damage with auto attacks in roughly the same amount of time for a full channel. If your bleeds get condi cleared like you know how good players play especially since thats what we are talking about then ya. Point made here. Flurry is crap becasue you have to use tricks in game just to get good use out of it.

No, in fact you don’t need to stow weapon, I just reconfirm it in game. Any root channel including 100b, just move, it will stop the channeling. Either way is an extra key press I guess.

Yes we do agree on the fact that the direct dam is crap. But the long immb has its uses, FS or100b, the trick is to have some sort of condition on hit/crit/switch weapon to provide cover so they don’t cleanse the immb. Its not as direct as the other weapons but god forbid we have to use some strategy on the already single class.

Regarding the bleed….. it is not that easy to cleanse actually. its high stack short duration + continuous channel. When you land you have immb → bleed → bleed → …… If the target has 1 condi cleanse when is he going to hit that, The best is right after immb, but the time between immb and 1st bleed is short. he can wait until all the bleed stacks, then my bleed has already done decent damage. Since the immb last 5 1/2 sec, I have a lot of time adding torment, or switch weapons which add other conditions. More often than not the bleed from Furry does more damage than you think.

Warlord.9074:

bigmonto.4215:

Flurry is not hard to land, it cleaves, with very unnoticeable animation. Even at 1 or 2 bar, you get really good bleed damage out of it. Every conditional warrior uses it.

I said the same thing but that isn’t the point. The point is Flurry its like 100b and roots you. You have to stow weapon just to use it and the melee hits don’t grant adrenaline. Point is, that its a bad burst skill in terms of how well it works. It is basically trash if didn’t have any redeeming qualities hence the immobilize.

Edit also melee/or condition it makes u vulnerable while channeling you are basically a sitting duck. That being said the amount of bleed stacks it gives is not fantastic you get just as many from a few auto attacks it doesn’t do that much damage.

It does root you only when the attack lands. While the attack is activating, it does not root you. And once it root you, all you have to do is move to break it, no need for stow weapon. It doesn’t make you sitting duck if you cancel it. If its 1v1 its not a problem, if another melee try to hit you, they will get hit as well by bleed or 100b.

It is a bit harder to land since you do have to close the gap, but the activation to immob is pretty fast. So Sw2 close the gap wait out any potential dodges, then Sw f1, its not hard to land, often you can hit more than 1 target too.

Edit: the damage is actually very good. My shout-heal condition build does around 5 to 6k bleed plus 1k of physical damage. It is fast high stack bleed hence it often doesn’t get cleansed. Kind of a burst damage on the conditional build. Definitely has its use. I am not going to say no to a buff, but frankly I don’t think there is a need.

On a Power side, sw-sh/GS will be viable. We will have quiet a few cc then with Sh4, bull charge, furry, with FS, AS and Furry -> FS or 100b not to mention brawler’s recovery will make warrior’s very resilient against conditions.

I think we will be fine. Yeah its a overall nerf to warrior diversity, since any non-aoe burst got a hit. But if you are getting hit + switching weapons + doing some hitting, you should have 2 to 3 bars of adren when the burst come off of cooldown. It is not that bad. Cele axe bow probably got the biggest nerf here. Otherwise anything uses GS (Skull-cracker, axe GS, hammer GS, sw GS) might actually be a bit of buff, since AS buff we basically get a new skill to use, a powerful one, with 360 degree aoe.

Flurry is not hard to land, it cleaves, with very unnoticeable animation. Even at 1 or 2 bar, you get really good bleed damage out of it. Every conditional warrior uses it.

Khenzy.9348:

Burst skills such as Eviscerate, Kill Shot or Skull Crack will never be on a meta build with these changes. A random blind, block or dodge will negate the burst skill effect, put it on CD, lose the Adrenal Health trait effect and negate any condition cleansing with CI, way too much punishment imo.

Warriors are going to be condi food now just like when they were trash tier.

Every Warrior uses Longbow not becouse it makes Warriors immune to conditions, but becouse it’s madatory to withstand condi preassure at all.

Actually no, your meta build GS + Hammer with Brawler’s recovery is going to be pretty good with conditions. AS is easier to hit with pretty high damage + 1 condition cleanse every 5 sec.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJMQJARSjMdUFaZIehwJagfgC9t3C7gpAQ9bkGdPA-TlCBABQ8AAwS5HAXAAPOCA5pLIBTQToEMT1f6Z/hNOEAkBgZBA-w

fellyn.5083:

Sarrs.4831:

Good changes, IMO.

The one thing I may have expected on top of it would be for LB F1 to receive a similar treatment to Choking Gas; have one initial tick (for the purposes of Cleansing Ire), but overall I’m fairly happy. Interesting that a dodged adrenaline ability is now so punishing; we might see people running things to try to do a better job of insuring them. We might even see bolas :O

Also, with new Brawler’s Recovery, I think that might actually pose a viable alternative to Cleansing Ire. Could possibly move to a style that thieves have with their two identical weapon sets. Maybe something like AM/AS with Warrior runes, Brawler’s Recovery, grab some other goodies. Could be fun.

It’s not just a dodge. It’s also miss. Like if you’re blinded mid super telegraphed earthshaker then you’re out of luck there, too. Or if your target runs out of range. No other class has such harsh penalties attached to the use of their class mechanic.

The worst part is that it’s easier to reply a condition and/or dodge than it is to build another full bar of adrenaline, especially in pvp.

With CI, getting hit a few times + switch weapon a couple of times + doing some hitting, you should have 2 to 3 bars when your burst come off of cooldown. So I say its not going to make much difference.

Well, IMO Adrenaline changes is not going to make much difference for weapons with AOE burst. Currently with number of adds, pets, clones, I always end-up hitting something. For weapons with single target burst like axe, mace, and rifle, that is a huge nerf. So no more complaining about evis I guess.

However, GS + Hammer will now be much stronger. Power sw+sh/GS and sw+sw/GS hybrid will be viable, there will definitely be more mobility complains. Condition warriors will still be strong that’s not going to change. Shout-heal conditional might start to be popular as inspiring shouts will negate some of the Adrenaline limitation.

Loading.4503:

Irrelevant but…
On my warrior I just stand there with my healing sig and adren health and autoattack… If the bleeding gets overwhelming I just clear it with my warhorn

Just another thief trying to divert the attention away from the OPness of the thief…. Move along don’t take the bait.

I would recommend using knights armor + zerker everything else if you think they are way too squishy. You definitely want 6 in strength line, to get that 25% damage boost.

Warrior doesn’t have low skill ceiling. It has low skill floor. #skill != better or harder to play.

You are playing this game like a turn based RPG, where you see 1 skill and try to counter with another skill. Playing warrior is much more like a fighting or an action game where timing, positioning, baiting, chaining are more important.

while I believe warrior is not OPed, it is definitely not weak against any profession including ele and engineer.

silentnight warrior.2714:

As a necro / mesmer you can give the conditions back to the thief. Let them put some good conditions, transfer them and heal yourself.
I also do that against condition warriors.

P/D Thief can also cleanse condition whenever they go into stealth (1 at start, 1 more 3 sec later). So returning the bleed stack is not enough you also need to put a few cover conditions before they go back to stealth.

alchemyst.2165:

Predict when they will use Shadow Strike (They hit you and shadowstep away and shoot you for 2 torment stacks) and dodge it. Just be very aggressive and try not to get hit by that or CnD. If you can prevent those abilities it’s pretty easy to kill them.

Predict when they will use Shadow Strike….. lol.
Whenever I heard anything relating to prediction, its an automatic fail as a strategy. You want to be rich, just predict the stock market. Yeah tell me how well that works out for ya.

PLus such Thief has 3k health + 2k armor. You won’t kill him even if you can read his mind.

But you can spec conditional bunker yourself, and not die to such thief.

Another one of those that try to explain an in-game mechanism using some sort of real-life parity.

Wait…. how exactly do you explain the following

Thief turning invisible right in front of your eyes? Elementalist shooting fire, ice, electricity, and stone? Necro summoning dead creatures? Engineer having infinite grenades + turrets? Guardian teleports? Mesmer generating illusion of itself?

Let look at warrior:

Wait I hit you with a huge sword and you don’t die? Make all weapon hit 1 or 2 shot kills

What do you mean my Rifle only has max 1500 range…… I should be able to hit you across the map, with 1 shot kills.

If you want base everything in reality warrior needs a huge buff, and everything else should be deleted.

Zacchary.6183:

bigmonto.4215:

I have more issue with thief go into stealth.

That right there shows how experienced you are with a thief. If you actually understood the profession’s capabilities you’de realize stealth doesn’t mean much, even if it was heavily traited. But you apparently don’t since I can safely assume you only got a thief to lvl 80 in order to have leverage in these kinds of debates, which doesn’t work. At least you aren’t Sandy. >.<

Also p/d might be top roaming but d/d hybrid is anti-thief. Again if you actually had experience you’de know that cripple and immobilize will screw a thief over if not removed quickly and this build can apply it often. But relying on stealth cleanse vs. condition spam will only hurt your DPS and make you burn up your stealth trying to keep it off of you.

If you end up running away anyway, then you’ve lost. That isn’t forgiving. Its just unrewarding.

You are right I don’t have a lot of experience as a thief, I never said I do. But I have a lot of experience vs a thief or with anything else as a warrior both as power and as conditional. And you can’t argue with how well warrior can cripple. Once again I have no issue with other warrior using CI, but a lot of issue with thief going into stealth. The biggest problem is once thief go into stealth, its difficult to add more condition onto him. The only possible way is AOE conditions, the problem with that is AOE conditions doesn’t add too many stacks, and if a thief were to dodge/tele out of range that’s it. If I face a warrior using CI, I just continue applying conditional pressure, CI only delay his death.

“If you end up running away anyway, then you’ve lost.” doesn’t seems to work for most people. Otherwise people won’t have that much QQ with GS warrior mobility.

OK so “p/d might be top roaming” You do agree p/d is king of roaming. So your claim of thief is weak is what? Just because your “d/d hybrid” can kill it? Lol…… King of roaming can only be kill by its own kind…… that’s why its weak…. wait what?

Yeah, I don’t think warrior mobility would be nerf much if at all. Most of the QQ are direct at warrior running away in roaming. That particular game mode gather the most opinion, but probably receive the least balance work. And if they do want to balance this mode, they might also look at condition bunkers + food, or even stealth which are all good things for warriors.

Also most of the complain seems to be GS. Outside of mobility, it isn’t a particularly strong weapon, as a result the complain is on warrior running away instead of being OPed. I would say the most nerf might be decrease the range of rush. Or give it the same treatment as ele. Perhaps Anet will also do a bit of rework on GS burst, which I am hoping.

Regarding CI, once again its more of an issue for LB. I don’t think Anet would change this trait, as it will affect every single warrior pvp/wvw builds, most of which are not OPed.

They might do something to Zerker stance though, decrease the duration maybe, as they mention something about not liking a immunity.

Terrible….

1. Cleansing Ire – Remove Adrenaline Gain.

Yes CI did too much by combining 2 thing to 1, but Adrenaline Gain on hit should be based line. If Anet is trying to mimic burst moves to that of fighting games, every single fighting game gain power charges on hit. To get a full bar on getting hit alone warrior will get hit 30 times. This is not OPed at all.

Requires Burst to hit with LB to actually cleanse conditions is a more reasonable change.

2. GS changes……

Your friend removes all the movement from it. So in WoW roaming power warriors are limited to GS + SW, from a lot of build possibility we have. There I thought build diversity is what Anet is trying to achieve. This is a giant step backward.

Zacchary.6183:

I’m just trying to clear up a bit of misconception both with me and my favorite profession.

For example, if you are constantly in stealth to cleanse conditions then you aren’t doing much damage. The people who should really care about it are those who have no experience with stealth at all.

Another thing, I have a d/d hybrid build that would melt your build due to the fact that it’s AoE bleeding and cripples will render most condition cleanse and mobility useless. So not only will it be very hard to run away but you will be bleeding heavily in the process.

But let me ask you this… can you do all that without stealth? I am pretty sure a warrior of the same skill can.

Really… I would like to see your build then. And do you speak that base on experience or theory crafting? P/D conditional bunker is generally consider the top roaming + dueling build some even consider it more OP than that of PU Mesmer. I am not saying its unbeatable, but it is definitely durable, easy to play, and can take on almost all builds with little risk. Its better than almost every warrior builds.

Also being in stealth to cleanse condition is an option. Sometimes you are not facing a condition build hence you don’t need it. Plus once you are in stealth your chances of get more condition bomb is lower. Unlike warrior, right after CI, it can be condition bombed again. As a condition build I have no issue with warrior’s CI at all. I have more issue with thief go into stealth. In addition, after 2 condition cleanse on the 4th sec of Stealth you can also only for a big attack, in the case of p/d its ranged with little risk.

I play a condition warrior with cripple + bleed as well, and no I cannot kill a p/d thief. And this is based on experience. If I go full condition dire, I will die eventually to such thief, if I go shout heal I won’t die, but I can’t kill such thief either, even if they are low, just stealth hide, and reset.

In fact fight with a thief of any kind, thief always control the fight, because they get to choose when to engage + disengage. Cripple does nothing, as a thief always have ways to teleport out. The only way to kill is maybe Evis, but only for thief that’s way too aggressive in attacking. In my experience as a thief or fighting one, it is by far the most “forgiving” profession of all. And if you don’t think that way, perhaps you should play a little more, and theorycraft a little less.

Zacchary.6183:

There is a difference between “effective” and “forgiving”. “Forgiving” builds are builds that allow you to make mistakes while still being “effective”. Every thief build is more or less “effective” but the class as a whole is unforgiving because:

1.) The thief profession has arguably the worst condition removal, stun breaks and healing (unless you are a kitten with SoM). The profession doesn’t have very much cushioning when they take a hit, unlike warrior that can dance around banners in zerker armor and heal conditions when they slap F1. Onto #2…

2.) Since a thief’s damage mitigation is complete crap, it forces the profession to concentrate more on avoidance. For example blinds, dropping target and visuals via stealth and by timing evasion whereas the warrior can just scream his head off and get back health or wtfbbq their enemy and remove conditions. Thief’s damage avoidance can only last so long and do so much because #3…

3.) Thieves have a resource pool that allows everything aside from the auto attack to be usable. Most of the on-demand damage avoidance is tied to these skills and the rest are on moderate cooldowns. Not only that, the thief can’t just switch to the other weaponset and keep going when their initiative dries out because guess what… those skills use initiative aswell. No initiative = no on-demand avoidance = meat popcicle. Is a warrior screwed when he runs out of adrenaline? No, and even then they can get it back before the burst goes off cooldown.

Do you even play the Thief? Here is the stats on my Thief

3k armor
18k health
1.8k conditional damage

4 sec stealth, 1 condition cleanse going into stealth, 1 more 3 sec later
323 per sec healing in stealth (this is in addition to the healing skill, and shadow refuge)

Can go into stealth every 4 sec, which means I can hide in stealth forever, and can cleanse 2 conditions per stealth.

Can do a burst of 5k bleed from range every 4 sec in additon to 1 to 2k torment (spammable) and 1.3k confusion.

Yeah you can say conditional bunker is OPed. This build can cleanse condition better than LB warrior. It gets almost as much armor, and can disengage at will. I cannot die 1v1, even in 1v5 I can always get away. You think this build is not “Forgiving”? You think warrior is more “Forgiving” than this build?

Easy + OP build is everywhere.

But seriously this is about Eviscerate and the OP is playing a mesmer. Why are you thief main come here to complain? Last I check there are just as many if not more threads about thief being OPed. And guess what you guys get to choose the fight, and there is ZERO risk for you to engage, after all you can always disengage. This is what I call truly “forgiving”.

what about something like this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTjMdUFalHeewJagqgC7iHA66h0nQXnCA-T1yCABxp+jFHCAAOABHqE8iHAwXK/ERDiEHBAKOBAzs/ge6DCAgAQZe0jOzZWKAImDA-w

Yes this is sw+sw, but once you see an opponent, you have the option to hot swap a zerker axe. And even if you got jumped, that final strike on the sword is not weak.

With 30% boon duration you have 90% up time on fury + with 10 to 20 stacks of might always.

nearlight.3064:

2 things about this:
1. the perma stealth condition theives/mesmers can hardly kill anything, much less keep a point from being decapped, unless your enemy is too stupid to entertain your jumping around and never dying. Warriors on the other hand can both do damage and keep on a capture point and dominate said capture point all with a very low skill floor.

I am going to have to completely disagree with you on that one. Both of these build are quite capable on killing. Yes they don’t have big attacks that does a lot of dam, but over time, they so really well. As for capture point, this once again you are thinking about warriors in general, and not based on builds. Take Axe + GS, how does it capture point really well? You can run around him in circles on the point. And when he is faced with 2, he melt. If you are talking about ham-bow, how does it do huge damage? In fact his advantage is completely lost if you don’t stay on point. You don’t see these around in wvw do you? Each of these two build are completely different have different strength and weaknesses.

nearlight.3064:

2. While its true that different warrior builds have different weaknesses, none of you are questioning whether or not that is fair or healthy. Most other classes have one universal weakness across all viable builds, like necros are always weak to focus fire/CC and engis are always weak to conditions/CC and mesmers are always weak to AoE, and Guardians and Eles are always weak to boon stripping/stealing/corruption. They can make certain choices and sacrifices to minimize or lessen some of those weaknesses but they cannot fully remove that universal class weakness. Warriors on the other hand can remove that universal class weakness so that its different from build to build, but theres no consistent weakness across each different viable build in the class.

I hope you understand my point because I’ve made it several times on thesee warrior threads, but NO ONE ever comments on it or responds or even tries to prove me wrong. They just ignore me, because they don’t want to give in to the argument of myself and others, not even a little bit.

In terms of warrior’s general weakness, conditions, obvious animations, and susceptible to burst are probably his universal ones. Condition issue is less of a weakness for Long bow. You can argue all you want this one, the truth is we spend more than half of our utilities + major traits selection to lessen this weakness. But this is a whole other thread.

As for fairness, I cannot comment whether its fair, but I can say it is certainly good to have options. I would say its better for other classes to have more options then for warrior to have less options. I believe Anet believe in it as well, and they are trying to add more options. Having options however does not mean a class is OPed. I hope you understand my point as well.

Zacchary.6183:

I don’t need to be on the warrior forums. In fact, I don’t want to go on the warrior forums because there is little to nothing that forum will do for me. It is filled with people crying for highly undeserved buffs (moar deeps), poor reasons to divert QQ away from the profession and players telling newbies that specific builds are the only viable ones available.

Now I am a theorycrafter by nature, I like to explore certain things instead of going off of people’s word and sticking with metas. I’ve already theorycrafted thief to hell and decided to expand on other professions. Warrior and mesmer happened to be the first candidates. Since then, I have yet to find any weakness a warrior may have that can not be easily covered through personal skill, skills or traits.

Comparing thief to the war, a thief can’t simply deal craploads of damage all of the time or simply recover mid combat or simply remove conditions or simply do whatever they feel like doing. Playing a thief is like solving a 3D puzzle and then playing Operation with it. You mess up a few times and you are dead.

With a war, its like all I really need to is gear glassy, spec tanky and then make sure I keep up the pressure. And that has quickly gotten boring. At least with a mesmer, I have some form of challenge trying to make certain builds work.

So do you actually play enough to actually verify your theorycrafting? What’s on paper != actually what happens in the game.

The biggest misconception about warriors is that it has no weakness. There has been many discussion on this topic. But in truth warrior has access to a lot of builds, and each build actually have different weakness. Take Warrior Axe for example, is a rather limited weapon in terms of utility, its only damaging attack in pvp is evis. As it is a leap, it has its issues with any movement conditions. Warrior also dependent on it for conditional removal. It is also very susceptible to blind, and blocks. Even with GS, all you really have to watch out for is evis, shield bash, and bull charge. And the latter 2 is on long cooldowns. Yes not all build can counter it, but it can be counter by many in most situations. If you actually play one is sPvP or WvW, you will realize its not a easy build to play at all.

There are builds with thief and mesmer that are just as forgiving. The immortal p/d build or the infamous PU build to name a couple. There are also warrior builds that are tricky to pull off a win. AXE + GS actually is not a noob friendly build in most game modes. Unless against someone who doesn’t even build their character for pvp then yeah I guess 1-shot-kill could be a problem. I don’t know what you would call these, pve noobs?

Dahir.4158:

killahmayne.9518:

Really??? Don’t like 12K Eviscerates? Then stop running around with 1800 armor seriously. It is kind of funny that these are the kind of people that are complaining. Don’t run glass then, or if you do, don’t complain if you get hit that hard.

What if they have 2500+ armor and still get hit with numbers close to that?

And so what if that’s the case? To get that number with 2.5k armor warrior will probably need to be in full pve build. Do you not think he will have other weaknesses? Do people expect PvP in this game to be like “rock’em sock’em robots” now? I am going to tell you, if you are going to trade hits with a warrior in a melee range, you are not going to come out on top.

Carighan.6758:

bigmonto.4215:

See this is a typical problem with the average player. They expect an win without effort.

Yes ofc they do.
Warriors, that is. :P

I don’t disagree, and perhaps that’s the reason why there are a lot of warriors out there. But there are build from many classes that are also very noob friendly, and a noob warrior will likely loose to a noob player of these builds.

Zacchary.6183:

I’ve been on a warrior for the past 7.5 months and I fail to see these weaknesses, unless we are talking about the inability to excel by slapping the keyboard.

That’s funny I have never seem you in the warrior forum. So I ask you what are you doing with the warrior in the past 7.5 month. Oh yeah you were playing a Thief. Lol.

By that logic, I can say I have been an Elementalist for the past year, that doesn’t mean I know much about them. Even then I can think of several things they can do to stop an axe warrior. The same goes for Thief, Guardian, Mesmer which I also play.

See this is a typical problem with the average player. They expect an win without effort.

Instead of cry OPed how about go on your class forum and ask for the strategy to beat such warrior in either your class forum or warrior forum. By crying here you are basically inviting trolls, and at the end of the day, you will still loose to such warriors.

If you actually do that you will know such warrior has some very glaring weaknesses. And are very easily countered. Of course you might have to work a bit to learn the fight, or change a few things in your build.

A while ago I was completely shutdown by Mesmer, so I ask for strategy on Mesmer in the warrior’s forum. I got some awesome info on Mesmer class in general, and generally have no issue with them in any game mode now.

Well, I would assume “full Apothecary armor” means WvW as these are not available in sPvP.

But either sPvP or WvW a shout-heal conditional build is better served using Krait, which allows him to use fast-hand.

Unless he is not shout-heal….. which then I would recommend lose the “Apothecary armor” and go full dire.

Krait period. I assume you do shout-heal. You can loose the 2 in arms, and instead use fast hands with Krait.

Narkodx.1472:

As a corrupto-mancer main for a long time most of this is actually true.. warriors are still weak to conditions.

It is just not as easy as before. You tank until zerk stance runs out then fear chain them corrupt the stability and its over pretty soon.

Warr v Necro is one of the best matchups IMO. A true skill matchup. Can the necro survive 15+ sec for zerk stance and initial stuns to end. Can the warr take advantage of this time to destroy the necro? Bad necro does not dodge earth shaker gets stunned for 10 sec then gets zerk stance rekt and its GG. Good necro dodges earthshaker tanks in DS while getting hit during zerk stance. Transfers when hit with pin down or fire field. Brings corrupt boon for stability and starts the chain of fear to death.

In the end though noob warr > noob XXX

That is why most people cry

I agree…. Finally some Necro is making sense.

It seems for noob XXX here weakness means being instagib by something.