Guild Wars 2

You mean to create a account on Blackgate?

I am from Blackgate, I never had problem logging in every night.
WvWvW is only ever full on Friday night, or possibly Sat nights. Plus it does have a queue system.

So these “several thousand” people complaining about warriors and yet have no issues with warriors are good players? And all these warriors are so bad that despite having equal to 6/6/6/6/6 of other classes, they still loose? They can beat warriors left and right but demand a nerf. And yet when good players (who can beat anybody anywhere as any profession) choose a profession they choose a warrior and they somehow loose to these “several thousand” people who have no issues with warriors.

And yet for some reason I see more thief and mesmers. And all the warrior in sPvP seem to be hambow (where there is no mobility) I wonder why that is? If there is no trade-off why isn’t all warrior using a GS (with S+S lol) everywhere?

Seriously guys this sounds more and more like a rant and less and less like a logical discussion. As soon as you start to mention high armor plus high health, all your credibility are lost.

It always comes to that same argument ….

So every single warriors are smacking your kitten then? After all our 14-point-build is == to your 6/6/6/6/6 build.

coglin.1867:

bigmonto.4215:

dancingmonkey.4902:

So you entire logic cycle here is that warriors mobility is not OP because the thiefs mobility + stealth is more OP ?

Got to love the logic of a warrior main defending the illogical to the death.

Lets face it logic is not exactly your strong suit. And no, I never said whether warrior’s current mobility is OPed or not. In fact I would agreed that a GS warrior’s mobility is better than some others. I did say GS as a whole is not OPed though.

My logic however is that if people are that focused on the ability for a class to disengage combat, they should more focus on thief and mesmer and possibly ele. Warrior is at best 4th out of 8, and he has to equips GS. Your focus on warrior seems illogical while there are much bigger issues in the wvw roaming mode.

Whether or not you personally feel the ability to disengage or display high mobility is an issue on other professions, with lower armor and health, does not justify the warriors having obvious over powering factors.

If you take issue with thieves, ele’s, or mesmers, then bring them up in the appropriate threads.

As i see it, the mobility is one of the factors that compounds with too many others, that cause the profession to be OP. It does not appear to me to be thematically in line with the profession. As well, it does not seem reasonable to me that the warrior should have access to such mobility in a build that offers as much as many many builds can do.

As I mentioned in previous post, if you ask anyone in this post they will say they have no problem with warriors. I do agree that in low level play, warrior is powerful, but in any level higher, it is simply decent. If you do have problem with them, maybe the issue is between your screen and your chair.

Warrior mobility comes from GS. GS is not a powerful weapon to begin with. It has issues. By choosing GS, warrior specifically spec mobility and make trade-off with damage and control not to mention its completely useless burst, and give up large chunk of his ability to cleanse conditions. By choosing GS the warrior is trying to be like a thief, he is not trying to stick it out. He wants to get in and get out. You have to keep in mind Warrior is just a fighter. In this game you can choose how you want to fight.

And the argument regarding mesmer + thief + ele is to question the validity of complain. Base on what I gather people mostly have problem with warrior’s ability to disengage. There are at least 2 more powerful class with ease of disengage than a warrior, and at least 3 classes that can disengage easier. A focus on warrior does not make sense.

Read what you pasted again. How did you equate issue with over powered?

For conditional bunker, and PU mesmer being over powered is probably the issue.
Thief, OPness isn’t necessarily the issue. As far as I am concerned, Thief can disengaged too easily. It all comes down to stealth has no counter. Rush at least can be slowed. If thief goes to stealth, that’s it. This is not to say thief should be nerfed. If stealth is nerf, thief should get a buff in its sustain.

Brutal Augus.5917:

bigmonto.4215:

Brutal Augus.5917:

AoE’s. Nuff said. If you can’t kill the thief as is, Its a l2p issue. If you don’t have AoE’s you’re probably playing a warrior, and if a thief kills your warrior under the current conditions of the warriors build capabilities…you seriously need to revisit your traits/ armor and weapons load out.

Wait you are actually serious about this?

With 4 sec stealth, I can be very very far away in every direction. What AOEs can you target things you can’t see. This is not to mention the 350 heals per sec in-stealth and conditional clear. If you can’t get away as thief, that’s more of a l2p issue for you.

you can very visibly see SR. So that is easily AoE’d. If the thief uses a non AoE stealth then lay an AoE under yourself. If the thief is running you need not worry unless they are pistol/dagger or short bow. I f they are indeed pistol/dagger or short bow then apply retaliation and back up out of their range until they start to follow, at that moment move forward and either cc/interrupt/immobolize them then DPS. If they stealth again just repeat the process. Yes, I am completely serious about this. Thats why I never get rolled by thieves unless they outnumber me(thats on my necro, guardian, warrior, thief and engi). If a thief can kill you using stealth alone it is still a l2p issue. I’m sorry, but the thief just doesn’t need nerfing. I’m not trying to flame you or inspire any rage, I’m just stating my opinions as this forum permits.

Well you are missing the point aren’t you? Here people are complaining about warrior because its ability to run away. And not so much about getting killed by a warrior. Would you not say thief can run better than warrior?

If you ask anyone here they will say: ha I have no problem with warriors or I eat hambow for lunch. So yeah it seems what kittened them off is the ability to stick it to the warriors before they run away with their awesome mobility that can be crippled, chilled, immb. But thief and mesmer stealth, nahhhh, we give up on killing these long ago.

Brutal Augus.5917:

AoE’s. Nuff said. If you can’t kill the thief as is, Its a l2p issue. If you don’t have AoE’s you’re probably playing a warrior, and if a thief kills your warrior under the current conditions of the warriors build capabilities…you seriously need to revisit your traits/ armor and weapons load out.

Wait you are actually serious about this?

With 4 sec stealth, I can be very very far away in every direction. What AOEs can you target things you can’t see. This is not to mention the 350 heals per sec in-stealth and conditional clear. If you can’t get away as thief, that’s more of a l2p issue for you.

dancingmonkey.4902:

you mean you much rather they spend time not toning down your ability to be OP?

At least everyone is suggesting reasons it is a problem, yet your demanding they make changes to 3 separate things that are not broken, and to make it worse, you do not even suggest what might be wrong with anything on your list at all.

The only reason you don’t think Conditional Bunker is OPed is because you play one. So the same back at you. By the way I play two, and I can see that its kitten OPed. One of which is a Thief, and am also leveling up a Mesmer. To me, warrior’s GS mobility has enough trade-offs that it really isn’t too much of an issue. And without GS, warrior’s mobility is around average.

As for what might be wrong? you know you have visited this forum enough and listening to enough reasons of why these might be OPed.

An example: my Thief has 3k armor + 20k health + 1.5k condi, and can perma stealth.

Aza.2105:

Warriors being able to disengage similar to a thief isn’t a intended part of their class design according to devs. They said specifically that warrior has a little bit to mobility at this time. So I expect sometime down the line their gap closers will be changed.

Warrior is suppose to be like guardian in the sense that they have health sustain, damage sustain, heavy armor and forms of mitigation to keep them in your face for the fight. Meaning they are designed to charge into a fight and only leave when the fight is over.

Right now this statement isn’t really true. With GS and other warrior gap closers such as savage leap, bulls charge and shield bash they can disengage fairly quickly. In some instances it may be greater than thief’s escape abilities due to their high health sustain. And that just isn’t right.

So when the time comes and you guys see skills like rush nerfed, don’t make complaints on the forum. Since you should know its coming.

When the time comes…… when is that time? In which game mode does rush affected anything? The only thing I can think of is WvW roaming. Is Anet really balancing this mode? Even if they are I would say in that mode there are at least 3 much bigger issues.

1. Conditional bunkers
2. Thief’s stealth
3. PU Mesmer

GS Warrior isn’t particularly OPed. Sure it allows the warrior to disengage easier than most classes, but its offensive ability is limited not to mention the terrible burst. If they run, you win! Does not able to make the killing blow matter to you that much? I mean most fights, it is unlikily you can kill a Guardian, or a bunker of any type, is fighting 30 min with no winner any better than a running warrior? And should Anet even care? I would much rather they spend the time on something more important.

Agreed. either switch the weapon or switch the gear to go conditional or hybrid.

Power based:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJIQJARSjMdUGalHeewJagqgC7iHA66h0nQXnCA-T1SDABHpE7hjAQqKBnR9nDuAAPp8oiHAAT7PAnuAAMxJxhAgQA6GDA-w

Condition based:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTjMdU5ZrHeewJagqgC7iHA66h0nQXnCA-TFTAABYoEEkDBAFmgMSVFF1HAwJAwMlZh8AAITpBqqVwxRAon9HIFwiSjA-w

Hybrid based:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTjMdU5ZrHeewJagqgC7iHA66h0nQXnCA-TVSAABgcIAiUJ4pq/AwJAIkHAQaK/6Z/BC1HwxRAgUALKNC-w

So you just argue for the sake of arguing?

You know full well that just because you can sit in stealth for 4 sec, it does not mean you have to every single time. You might not get 2 conditions you have to remove. You can always Stealth → backstab → stealth a few sec later.

This renders your argument on being “easily countered” or not removing blind moot.

The only thing warrior has more than thief in terms of – duration is -33% on these 3 conditions. Both runes and food are available to thief. And -98% is not -98% if the opponent uses +40% food + rune. Its more like -50%. Trust me -50% is still a long enough time and many cases worth a cleanse.

I play both a condition warrior with +duration food and a power based warrior with Hoelbrak rune + -duration food to know that Dogged march doesn’t do too much.

Yes LB is better with might stack, but stop mentioning ham-bow. We all know its good build to fight on point but not good anywhere else. The LB is used for CI + cover the point with Fire field. The slowness of Arcing Arrow is more used as a blast finisher for the Fire field than anything else. ham-bow in tPvP aren’t damage dealers. And if you play solo, you are better off playing shout heal conditional or cele-axe bow. LB is much better for conditional warriors though.

But that’s not the issue we are discussing. Even if CI hits every single time it still not nearly as good as thiet’s 4 sec stealth with Shadow’s Embrace. And Artaz.3819 is right if stealth is cap at 3 sec, where if you want the 2nd condi-cleanse you cannot attack out of stealth, this sound much more reasonable.

Olba.5376:

bigmonto.4215:

Its funny people still think CI is OPed. I used to think CI is pretty decent. Until I play a thief. The “Adept” trait: “Shadow’s Embrace”. Coupled with how often I go in stealth, this is the best condition removal trait in the game. No wonder thief doesn’t bother with any other condition removal skills.

Shadow’s Embrace, remove 1 condition when the thief go into stealth, another one 3 sec later. So 2 every 3 sec, this rate is much better than the CI. The best part is, when thief is in stealth its unlikely to get new conditions and can open with a devastating attack.

That’s 2 conditions every 3 seconds if you are not attacking your enemy.

And unless you’re lucky, that might just result in your spending 3 seconds taking damage from 20+ stacks of bleed.

I wonder why people don’t complain about that?

Because Thieves don’t get to reduce the duration of Chill, Crippled and Immobilize by an amount that almost makes them irrelevant? You can easily get around Shadow’s Embrace by forcing it to cleanse a non-damaging condition.

But I can open with a big attack on the 4th sec right? A 9k backstab, or 5k bleed every 4 sec is not bad even if I am not attacking during stealth.

Regarding the reduction on condition duration, most condition build get at least +36% duration food (~ 1.5s a piece on tp). Plus Cover condition also works for CI.

And once you are in stealth you are less likely to get more cover conditions.

The bottom line is after seeing what the thief can do, I don’t even think CI with compulsive shot is OPed. After all you are making certain trade-offs by going to LB especially for power builds.

MarauderShields.6830:

bigmonto.4215:

If you really want to talk about stats here is my stats on my thief (with no food):

3k armor
1.8k health
1562 condi
Cleanse 2 conditions every 3 sec.
Go into stealth every 4 sec, and stay in there for 4 sec (perma stealth).

And the next piece of BS. Yes, condi bunkers are OP, we had this established. But here’s the deal: Warrs can also join the condi crowd. I’m also interested in how you go perma stealth with your p/d thief. With well timed tickling with CnD that does nothing?

It is funny you call it BS, and yet you agreed with me that the stats is a bit OPed. (this is not to say the class is) Yes I tickle with CnD, but every 4th sec I can do a 7 sec bleed that does 5k damage, every 25 sec I can do 6 sec confusion with 1k dam on skill use. There also other opportunity of torment and bleed I can do. My damage potential is not bad even staying perma stealth.

You also conveniently left out my first paragraph. Which I am sure you and others with experience on this game would know that stats is just part of the class, alone does not decide whether the class is OPed.

Warrior always has those stats, but for the first year warrior is at the bottom of pvp. And an elementalist who has the lowest base stats is arguably one of the strongest class.

MarauderShields.6830:

bigmonto.4215:

What exactly are you disagreeing on. My statement is: “a army guy can out run me”. How well do you know me to disagree on that? Sure an athletic guy wears nothing can out run an athletic guys that wears a lot, but what about an non-athletic guy? Are you assuming the mages, and the mesmers are athletic enough to out run a very athletic guy wearing a lot?

Your argument is BS because

A: you try to justify the current state of Warrior with fluff

B: you assume that every class other than Warrior is an untrained internet-user with no relevant skills whatsoever.

Actually that’s exactly my point.

Since you cannot assuming anything relating to the state of people of classes in game., you cannot assume warrior should or should not run faster based on you experience in reality. Heck we don’t even know if physics works the same way in game vs real world or if heavy armor is as heavy as it is in the real world.

But I will say a person train in heavy weight can perform better than many not-so-athletic person. Of course this is not a justification that warrior automatically should be faster, but you cannot say warrior shouldn’t be either.

MidoriMarch.8067:

I cant believe there are people who are actually saying warriors are balanced..

my warrior has
-24k hp
-2.9k armor
-2.3k power
-44% crit chance
-crazy mobility
-many -condi durations along with condi clears
-some crazy cc’s with variety weapon choices
-8 second condi immune / 4 seconds invincible mode + more if traited
-free 25% movement speed without traveler or speed runes that makes me use more powerful runes without sacrificing any movement speed that are essential for wvw

and all those stats are without any kind of food buffs and all my items are full zerker.

still not op? show me which classess can have those stats + mobility and condi clears invicible and with FULL ZERKER GEAR????

I wouldnt cry about warrior having high hp/tough and attack but with crazy burst mobile too.. really? Warrior doesnt lack of anything they dont need sacrifice anything to have both offensive and defensive stats and they are easy to play as well lol still not op? at least warrior’s mobile should get nerfed

Then why is that my similarly geared Guardian (zerker mix) can tank much better than my warrior, despite with only 2.6k armor and 16k health? Or have you met with a Ele that you just can’t kill even though he/she got the lowest armor + health in the game.

If you really want to talk about stats here is my stats on my thief (with no food):

3k armor
1.8k health
1562 condi
Cleanse 2 conditions every 3 sec.
Go into stealth every 4 sec, and stay in there for 4 sec (perma stealth).

I play a thief as well, I know full well their mobility. And yes I can catch up to a warior with dagger 2, and yes you need to use up initiative, and possibly utility. But warrior need to used up cooldowns, and traits as well.

Also there are quiet a few ways for a theft to gain perma swiftness (centaur for example), and lets not forget “Fleet Shadow” and “expeditious dodger”.

All these are not even talking about stealth.

I hope you are not trying to argue warrior can get away better than thief.

But you guys have to remember, without active heal, the only option is for the warrior to run. This is probably why you see a warrior running so often. 5 sec into fight I got nuked with 1/3 health left, of course I will pop my stance and run, it is not like I can hit a button and heal back up.

dancingmonkey.4902:

My military service experience disagrees with you completely. But I was Air force Para rescue/Combat Control and not in the Army. Perhaps you should watch “Lone Survivor”. Armor/Gear compared to cloth wearer is actually a oft mentioned factor in that movie in a very relevant fashion, compared to how you mention it.

But do you really feel making a real world comparison of the military then turn around and go completely fictional to the fireball comment does much for your argument? Should a heavy armor wearer(in this context it seems to me to be a suit of metal armor) should outrun an engineer wearing rocket boots, a mesmer who can teleport, a ele that can turn to lightening, or a thief that can teleport with its arrow?

What exactly are you disagreeing on. My statement is: “a army guy can out run me”. How well do you know me to disagree on that? Sure an athletic guy wears nothing can out run an athletic guys that wears a lot, but what about an non-athletic guy? Are you assuming the mages, and the mesmers are athletic enough to out run a very athletic guy wearing a lot?

And what kind of argument are you trying to make? I did mention balance wise right? A primarily melee character needs to be able to out run a primarily ranged character. Its not that hard to figure out.

Also you are assuming that engineer wearing rocket boots, a mesmer who can teleport, and ele that can turn to lightening make sense. Fictional is by default not real. You can argue however you want. I can just as easy to say a rocket boot gets over heated with prolong use thus requires cooling. or teleportation requires huge amount of strain on ones psyche that only limit distance or frequency can be used….. with these limitation its not hard to argue that warrior can run faster as he is just stronger than the rest.

Ok then why shouldn’t warrior be faster than other classes? Warrior is by default athletic and used to the heavy armor.

I bet the army guys can out run me with all their gears on even if I just wear cloth and carry nothing.

And this is only if you argue in terms of reality.

In terms of game balance:

Why can’t warrior run faster if the opponent can shoot fireballs out of their hands?

So we give up on complaining on Thief’s mobility?

The truth is Thief has the most mobility by far. The spam-able dagger 2 alone out run warriors except maybe GS + SW warriors. Your average GS warrior is more mobile than some other classes, but they are quiet kite-able. And your SW warrior is only about average. Everything else basically has no mobility.

Heavy armor or not makes no difference. Or should I be complain about how could people shoot fire and lighting out of their hands? Or people create minions out of thin air?

Its funny people still think CI is OPed. I used to think CI is pretty decent. Until I play a thief. The “Adept” trait: “Shadow’s Embrace”. Coupled with how often I go in stealth, this is the best condition removal trait in the game. No wonder thief doesn’t bother with any other condition removal skills.

Shadow’s Embrace, remove 1 condition when the thief go into stealth, another one 3 sec later. So 2 every 3 sec, this rate is much better than the CI. The best part is, when thief is in stealth its unlikely to get new conditions and can open with a devastating attack.

I wonder why people don’t complain about that?

1. Get the Asc zerker ammy from wvw first with 20 Laurels + 250 badge
2. Join Eotm train to get 350 more badge (it will be pretty fast)
3. Get zerker rings from wvw with 25 Laurels + 250 badge each
4. Join COF p1 + p2 for the zerker armors. (Personally I would get couple of soldier pieces from temple for added survival first, they look pretty good as well)
5. Get weaponsmith crafting to 500
6. craft ascended weapons (weapons are much better investment, armors, not so much)
7. Do guild missions for asc trinket (will take a while, 4 weeks at the fastest)

Bran.7425:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

nope. warrior’s optional mobility is fine and balanced.
further adjustments no necessary.

The developer disagree with you there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD9Tvfk1pjk&list=UUP_FgMqOxp_VsM0UfrL-DxA
1:12 ish for the exact “little too much mobility now”

This is an example of taking things out of context. The devs are saying players think warrior have too much mobility.

Prysin.8542:

bigmonto.4215:

nerf warrior, nerf CI, nerf HS, nerf LB, nerf GS, nerf hammer, nerf Dogged March, nerf stances, nerf……

yeah, that would fix the issues with warrior all right… Good list you got there sir

You do realized that you just proved my point, right?

This is the typical response from this forum…. hmm warrior got a lot of versatility, but few others has it…… wouldn’t it be better in the long run if everyone has it? Nah, let kill the warrior class instead, so no one has any options.

dancingmonkey.4902:

The problem with that, is that it is ecaxtly what everyone has been doing. Yet it appears they only did it for the warrior professions. Which is probably why you see threads with titles exclaiming a belief of Anet having a bias in favor of the profession.

Hmmm I must be reading everything wrong, since all I see is nerf warrior, nerf CI, nerf HS, nerf LB, nerf GS, nerf hammer, nerf Dogged March, nerf stances, nerf……

TyPin.9860:

As far as I can see it, one complaint can not be easily ignored. The Warrior profession has no trade offs inherent in it’s nature, as I have earlier argued here.

So to counter a warrior, you have to examine the build they use. Hint: Weapons are a good tell already^^ It is true that warriors can build for many things and are probably one of the most versatile professions in the game. Versatile not in role diversity, but in practicality for the different game modes. They are equally versatile as guardians in that sense. However, while in PvP guardians are for example always weak to boon stripping, stealing or even corrupting, a warrior has his weakness in the build that is used.

Hambow or Hammer/GS (as I have experienced today) are horrible fighting thieves with pistol in the off hand. However, with a fast hitting weapon that issue doesn’t become such a problem any more, but you lose the advantages of GS and/or Hammer making you for example loose mobility and very weak against any profession, that can hold you on distance.

The thing is, while this might seem a bit unbalanced on the first glance, it is very easy to see through and doesn’t throw anyone off, who is informed about the most common builds or willing to inform himself. In the end: on equal skill and knowledge level, warriors are very well balanced imho, even without a clear weakness common to all builds.

I respect you for making this post. You don’t stick to the stereotypical argument and welling to give Warrior a try. And after a bit, their weakness is apparent.

IMO this versatility should be exemplified, and not beaten down. So I ask those who calls for nerf or weakness or whatever, instead of asking Anet to limit warrior’s versatility, ask Anet to improve versatility for every profession.

Try might striping.

Lishtenbird.2814:

RyuDragnier.9476:

IMO they should just make it like Signet of Vampirism, where you get healed whenever you’re hit. Maybe have it start off as a percentage of damage taken or a set amount that scales well with healing power. But it should NOT be happening all the time without any specific criteria for it to turn on, because it isn’t a condition cleansing signet or a boon giving one.

Get healing effect every 2 seconds if you’ve dealt direct damage during the previous 2 seconds.

Works when you’re fighting, shuts down when you’re running away.

Whatever the Mechanism of HS, it is still mostly the amount of heals and not how it heals. If every 2 sec you get 2k heal (enough to negate an auto crit) but you get it only being attacked, people would still cry. If you get much less, no warrior will use it, and warrior goes back to the poor state we were in 1 year ago. All the suggestion of how to should work is largely meaningless.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Strawman logic, that is.

I’m pretty sure what he meant by passive is that you just need it on, you don’t have to do anything to proc the heal. Compare this to the other Signets that actively heal in the healing slot, where you have to do SOMETHING to get it to activate. Whether it’s attacking (Signet of Malice on Thief, Signet of Restoration on Elementalists), keeping your class mechanic up and going (Signet of the Ether on Mesmer), or just getting hit (Signet of Vampirism), all of them require some active effect to happen, they just don’t happen automatically.

IMO they should just make it like Signet of Vampirism, where you get healed whenever you’re hit. Maybe have it start off as a percentage of damage taken or a set amount that scales well with healing power. But it should NOT be happening all the time without any specific criteria for it to turn on, because it isn’t a condition cleansing signet or a boon giving one.

I am confused, how does Strawman logic even apply here?

1. So far I don’t know anyone made any mention of whether healing signet should be compare to other signets or to all heals. Generally the complain of warrior being too passive implies its comparison to all heals for all classes.

2. Why would you consider that have to do SOMETHING to receive the heal more active, when that something is what you would normally do anyways?

3. Active play means different things to different people. To some reactive play is more active, to other preemptive play is more active. HS lacks a decent active heal. We take actions to prevent our self from needing one. And if the situation does arrive, make no mistake, we will take active action like every other class out there whether it is to run, or to activate HS, stances, or kite, or stun.

To say warrior is passive compare to other classes is….. well, simple minded. And just because HS seems passive it does not mean HS promotes passive play.

But who are we kidding. HS’s mechanism never really changed. It got all these complain only after Anet buff the amount it heals. In reality people have problem with how much it heals and not how it heals. All the talks about active or passive are just excuses.

Harper.4173:

dancingmonkey.4902:

because passive anything in a game designs to be active and reactive is a bad idea.

Passive healing in this game is an even worse idea.

And why is that exactly?
Care to improve on your point?

Agreed, sounds like someone is trying to impose his or her own play style to others.

In a game, there should variety style to choose from. If you don’t like a style just choose another.

I also won’t consider warrior passive at all. Yes we don’t have to press extra button to heal. But you know what we have to do when our health gets low? We run, lol. That’s a lot more button to press you know.

So perhaps other classes are more passive, since they only have to press 1 button. Ever think about that?

Cover conditions, problem solved. While I am not against combustive shot need to hit proc CI. That’s not going to help Necros, period. And this is what this thread is really about isn’kitten necro vs warrior.

Necro is pretty much the only class that has to face tank warrior, when we cleanse their condition or when Zerker stance comes up. Every other class has other defensive mechanism, either through boon, stealth, mobility + kiting.

The real complain about warrior is not weak against condition is really only apply to necros.

TyPin.9860:

Silent Shino.7239:

As we all know, conditions in wvw are out of control and horrendously difficult to counter.

Nope, they are fairly simple to counter, really

I main a guardian, guardians have the best condition removal in the game, if I can’t counter them with a full anti condition build; something is seriously wrong.

Or you are simply not good enough. Not meant as an insult. For your defense: When I run my condition necro, I usually have no issues against guardians. Having many cleanses doesn’t equal a good condition cleansing.

You cannot dodge most conditions and there’s only so many times you can dodge in a certain space of time.

You can not dodge all of the physical damage and hard CCs either.

I main a guardian, the class which has the best anti-conditions in the game. There is no counter for conditions apart from horribly expensive food + runes.

Simply wrong. I also would argue that Warriors have better condition cleanses than guardians. At least for themselves.

Yes, I’ve been forced to use a PU mesmer in certain scenarios and it’s just about impossible to be killed as one.

Funny, I main Mesmer and I was never forced to run PU. And I have killed plenty PU Mesmers myself, with condition damage and physical damage and hybrid damage.

Now to your suggestions. You want to remove so many conditions, that several professions would be broken. This can go either way for them. Also the reduction of bleeding to 5 stacks is ridiculous as well as the confusion suggestion. Your posts seems like you want an easy win mode.

I can’t help it….. TyPin, now I get it, no wonder all the warrior hate. Cause you play a condition Necro. Yeah warrior kinda hard counters Necro most of the time. I can’t think of a case I lost to one.

But as a condition warrior, yeah condition need to be look at, but not quiet as drastic as the OP suggests.

Prysin.8542:

if any warrior player thinks its sad that they do not have pets. My ranger is willing to share her’s. You can pick my bear up at any moment. I’ll even trade all the pet related traits for well, any trait you do not want.

In return i want;
Ill take Warriors Sprint, Restorative Strength, Blademaster, Armored Attack, Deep Cuts, Opportunist.
Sword Offhand with all skills related to it
Warhorn skillset
Dolyak Signet Utility Skill
Stomp Utility skill

Wanna complete the transaction?? You can have a bear today, at a bargain price!!!!

My question for you is…. why don’t you just play a warrior. Surely you can’t be that lazy to level one?

Or are you trying to take all of warrior’s strength, and all of ranger’s strength, and leave all of their weakness out of the door? Kind of a childish post here.

IMO cripple is bigger issue than immobile. Immobile is powerful but rather short lasting. Cripple on the other hand are more often applied and lasts longer.

But the issue with warrior is that if he is a melee build (that’s most of the weapon choices). He will need to get to the target to do anything. So even if warriors get more access to removal, they still need to remove it and get to the target, hence he is more kitable.

Most ranged based warrior won’t even bother with Mobile strikes.

TyPin.9860:

• what I don’t accept:
  Blocks, smart play and disengaging of opponent is no real weakness for it concerns every class without exception.
• Blinds:
  also concern everybody, however I’d agree that due to their nature as mostly melee it concerns warriors more (against thieves for example – just saying blinding powder). Also blinded warriors shouldn’t be able to clear conditions via F1 (correct me, if I am wrong).
• Boons:
  I wasn’t aware that warrior also is very boon reliant. If so, I’d understand this as a potential weakness much like guardian and elementalist
• Soft crowd control:
  Mobile strikes and dogged march can easily deal with soft CC. But maybe I misunderstand what soft CC is…
• Telegraphing:
  This argument is repeated. However other professions have also telegraphing. I personally meet so many hammer warriors that I only look out for the hammer movement (100b is neither a problem on necro [death shroud + fear], nor mesmer [blink, decoy, F4 shatter, blurred frenzy, phase retreat], other than that I don’t see really more telegraphing compared to other professions. I could be wrong though…

Concluding to the discussion until now I would alter my initial statement about warrior as follows:

Warrior

• high HP pool, high armor, high single target and AoE DPS, good crowd control, high mobility, frequent condition removal, frequent stun breakers, high evasion
• weak to blind (blocks part of condition cleanse), highly telegraphed attacks, relies on boons, which could be corrupted, ripped or stolen

I have created a warrior some hours ago and I will try to sPvP with her… and eventually level her up… my Mesmer just tags nothing in Zerg fights So I can test the claims about boon reliance and telegraphing myself.
However, instead of arguing your position (and with me you can argue your position, I am not blindly claiming facts out of the air and defend them to the last breath) you say figuratively: “Not played warrior yourself? You know nothing John Snow!” ^^

I do not need to play every profession in order to discuss my impressions of the professions I meet. This is why a forum is there for, so we can discuss issues and come to a conclusion.

EDIT:

bobomb.5209:

I’m sorry but this post is incredibly biased. What you forget to mention is that all those traits that a warrior can have are separate. You cannot have all those perks in one build, therefore there is always a weakness. Post a build that has all that is listed above and then we can start talking about nerfing anything in particular.

A thief also doesn’t have boon steal, high single target dps, high evasion and stealth at the same time, a Mesmer doesn’t have high long range DPS and high short range burst at the same time, though you are not complaining about that lists. I didn’t say that this is all in one build (if I it sounded like that, than I didn’t mean it that way). I was talking about the trade off of the profession. And I had the impression warriors have too much potential advantages but not enough disadvantages.

Warrior is only boon reliant on celestrial hybrid build, a celestrial is really very devastating when you have 15 to 20+ stacks of might.

In general much of warrior’s damage potential are due to might + fury, but I would not consider it to be “reliant”

I also won’t consider boon reliant too much of a weakness either. Since few class + build does boon striping. Its like saying condition build are a weakness due to condition transfer or conversion.

Lets take a look at some of the another class you mentioned:

Guardian: I can see you don’t Guardian either.

low HP (not an issue, enough healing + boon to mitigate this problem, they are the de facto bunker after all)
low/no long range DPS (somewhat true, they still have scepter)
low mobility (not true, depends on build, shout builds can have perma swiftness + 1 gap closer, meditation build have 3 gap closer)
and less frequent stun breakers (not true, they have 7, most among all classes)
relies on boons (depends on build, meditation build does not depends on boon at all)

This is the problem when people don’t play warrior and talk about warrior has no weakness.

Warrior has a lot of weapon choices and builds, each one has its own weakness. However they don’t share the same weaknesses. So to a non-warrior player the perception is that warrior has no weakness.

For example:

Hambow: low mobility, not much control burst. Great at fighting on-point, won’t take anyone down in the open world.

Hammer + GS: weak against conditions. 1-hit pony, the only thing it got is stun+100b. And if you dodge their Hammer F1, they can’t cleanse conditions.

Celestial: very boon dependent.

In general If you don’t take SW or GS, you have low mobility.
If you don’t take LB, you are weak against conditions + kiting.
If you don’t do shout heal you are weak against burst
Lack other defensive options, it is mitigated by high armor + high health.
Very obvious animation.

a t s e.9614:

bigmonto.4215:

By the way this warrior is not a power based build. He is using celestial stats for sure. And 1100 condition sounds about right as this is with a lot of might stacks.

Axe/sword is a power build. A celestial warrior crits for 5-9k eviscerate depending on the target. You gonna tell me 9k crit is a condi build lol.

Axe/Bow warr is one of the most broken 1v1 builds right now. Not many things can beat it 1v1. It has the condi damage of a carrion and direct damage of a zerker.

I am here to point out that this warrior uses celestial stats, not a strictly power build. I am not here to argue whether it is OPed.

Notice in the picture eviscerate isn’t even mentioned.

Perhaps it should be nerfed, who knows. But a fight that last that long and does that much damage and not kill the target faster seems ok.

I can say as a pure conditional warrior I can kill a target way faster, of course I will do less damage than shown.

By the way this warrior is not a power based build. He is using celestial stats for sure. And 1100 condition sounds about right as this is with a lot of might stacks.

Phadde.7362:

I’ve mained an Elementalist and a Warrior since the 1st beta event. I build them both to be effective, but mainly hard to play. I can say for sure that once you’ve grasped both professions (and are rolling a build as described), the Elementalist is a lot easier to play; It’s all a matter of cycling through skills in different orders, while in the Warrior’s case, it’s much more a matter of timing the correct skills in order to stay effective w/o dying on the spot.

This is funny, I totally agree on your experience. This is the same story for me as well. Few people can use the exact skill at the exact most optimal moment. Usually with elementalist is that you have a few sets of rotation that you do. However as a warrior, timing, comboing, canceling, and the ability to bait dodges becomes more of a center stage of play.

To give a extremely simplfied example:
A does 100 damage with 10 hits, and B does 100 damage with 1 hits. Which one is simpler? Well A has to use 10 attacks and B use only 1 attack. But if the target avoid a few hits from A, no big deal, A can just continue to use more attacks, as some will hit. But if the target avoid a hit from B, B is screwed. So what B has to do is try to his best to make sure the target does not or cannot avoid the hit.

In the case of low skill players, they are targets never avoid hits. So B is easier by far.

This is exactly the reason I find elementalist boring to play.

Warrior is not OPed, but lets still nerf them anyways. Oh by the way this is targeted towards strength runes.

How about nerf strength runes?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Not so much a necro’s gripe. Cleansing Ire is objectively better than most cleansing skills out there (only exception being Consume Conditions, a total cleanse on 25 second cooldown with better rewards for the more you cleansed). Even with no other traiting, it’s a 3 condition cleanse on a 10 second cooldown. No other cleanse in the game works that fast. With further traiting, it’s a 3 condition cleanse on a 7 second cooldown, or a 3, then 1 or 2 on a 7 second cooldown.

It’s strong enough that many Warriors get along just fine without taking a single cleanse skill, despite that being an intended weakness of the profession. The closest anyone else gets to that is Rangers with a Grandmaster trait that transfers 3 conditions to the pet every 10 seconds. Higher investment for a cleanse that literally screws the pooch, and conditions are not supposed to be a major weakness of Rangers.

I am not asking for CI to lose one bit of functionality it currently has. I’m asking for it to not be able to totally replace cleanse skills by being available less often. If it got an ICD and did not go on cooldown if you used a burst skill with no conditions, fine. I’m not averse to that, as it would function similarly to the sigils that cleanse on hit/crit and still be guaranteed to be removing conditions when it went off.

Clearly you have some misconception of a warrior. And I am tired of repeating myself. Once again: Warrior don’t just only take CI to deal with conditions. We use Runes, food, zerker stands, signet of sta, Shake it off, often war horn, and other traits. Unless in your mind none of these counts.

In sPvP why don’t you take a warrior with only CI and see how long you last.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

No, CC works against any cleanse ability outside of those that also are stunbreakers.

“evade the burst, or block it, or blind it, or kite it” doesn’t, am I right?

alamore.1974:

Landing. a burst is a lot harder then you think it is. Most classes have.ample.defensive capabilities to deal with warriors burst, you issue with CI is starting to sound more and more like an issue with necro defenses instead. As some one who plays necro(as much as I play my war) I know it can be frustrating with our lack of defensive capabilities making hitting a necro with a wars burst verry easy.

I do notice that as well. This thread is really about Necro’s gripe against a warrior and not so much about OPness of CI.

Most condition builds don’t have much problem with it. Of course condition builds are often so much stronger in solo settings that they really don’t care. I would say definitely tune down condition builds in general first. Then work on group conditional cleanse so condition builds are more represented in higher tier team games, even CI if it become too much. Currently CI is absolutely necessary for any non-pve warrior, and more-often-than-not not enough.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why was I so particular on control with Fear? Because it’s the only way a necro can stop a Warrior from using their burst skill and thus keep them from just cleanisng everything. If there were options for stun instead of Fear, you can bet I’d use them too!

Ahha, so CI is not OPed. You just control him so he can’t hit with burst or you can evade the burst, or block it, or blind it, or….. As powerful as it sounds, this is the intended weakness with CI. In fact CI is not enough, this scenario is precisely the reason why we don’t just run CI + zerker stands as you claimed.

Just because a profession is weak against conditions does not, and should not be completed destroy by it. As it stands now, warrior is still weak against conditions.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

bigmonto.4215:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Without knowing anything about what you’re already running, it’s impossible to give suggestions (I can guess Dogged March, since you mentioned reduction). Given that conditions are intended to be a Warrior’s weakness, however, you really should never be great at dealing with them. Sufficient, perhaps, but not “great”.

I am not asking for suggestion. And if you are as knowledgeable as you claim about on warriors, you should absolutely know exactly what build I am using, since there really isn’t much options of traits and utilities.

Either way, NO warrior only run CI + zerker stands, they are not enough, no where near enough.

Saying “I run shouts” is like a necro saying “I run spectrals.” All that means usually is that you have two skills in a category equipped.

When you said 2/3 of your utilities are there for conditions and only one shout does anything regarding conditions, I assume Shake it Off (which is a good skill because it’s a short cooldown stunbreak) and Berserker’s Stance, plus FGJ as your third utility, given On My Mark kinda sucks and Fear Me is incredibly rarely used. That leaves your Elite (which is Signet of Rage or Warbanner, as nobody uses Juggernaut) and Healing skill (Assumed Healing Signet). Weapons for condition warrior are always Sword/Sword and Longbow. With only one active cleanse skill, and one that only removes a single condition at that, it’s no wonder you’re having issues with conditions.

Although, that does bring up the question of your chosen traits. If you’re running Dogged March (known) and Cleansing Ire (most likely) plus Shrug it Off, you shouldn’t be having issues unless your cleanse timing just sucks. Other professions get by with less in the way of cleanses and do just fine because they know when to use those cleanses.

And yes, Berserker’s Stance+Cleansing Ire is enough. If it weren’t, then the top tier Warriors would be having a lot more difficulties with conditions than they are. The Hambow build is incredibly well known and Cleansing Ire is the only cleanse in the entire build.

Where do you see top tier warriors? from team games? Their condition clear comes from the groups. Solo hambow were not that great, even if they are good, they are still only good at capping a point. In wvw, every single power build use -condition rune + food + usually 2 out of 3 utilities dedicated to deal with conditions.

Why do I have more issue with conditions? Cover conditions. You can say timing all you want, but you know as well as I do a good conditional build have a lot of cover conditions put on almost all the time. This is why I never have problems against other power warriors with CI.

As you mentioned “Other professions get by with less in the way of cleanses” I don’t doubt that is true. Because other profession has other ways to deal with conditions or damage in general. Cleanse is not necessarily the only way to deal with conditions. For example: if you have a good way of avoid getting hit by condition based attacks, or some profession have naturally good healing ability to heal through them.

What I am saying is, you cannot simply see a profession’s cleanse abilities, and determine whether it is a weakness for that profession. You have to judge base on the overall mechanism of that profession.

If you play a warrior you will know that condition is indeed a weakness for warrior currently. Many of us make a lot of investment try mitigate it, but often its still not enough.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Without knowing anything about what you’re already running, it’s impossible to give suggestions (I can guess Dogged March, since you mentioned reduction). Given that conditions are intended to be a Warrior’s weakness, however, you really should never be great at dealing with them. Sufficient, perhaps, but not “great”.

I am not asking for suggestion. And if you are as knowledgeable as you claim about on warriors, you should absolutely know exactly what build I am using, since there really isn’t much options of traits and utilities.

Either way, NO warrior only run CI + zerker stands, they are not enough, no where near enough.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If Warriors had strong condition cleansing ability with heavy investment, I’d be fine with it. If you spec heavily into doing something, you should be good at it. The issue is that they need 4 points in Defense (Dogged March and Cleansing Ire) and they’re set. They have great condition resistance without using a single cleanse skill.

As a conditional warrior I run a shout heal conditional build 0/0/5/6/3

3 out of 6 of my major traits are focus on condition removal + reduction
2 out 3 utility I slot are dealing with conditions applied to me

Do you not consider this heavy investment? Yet my weakness is still conditions. What do you expect people to trait or build in order to be strong against conditions?

Also I am going to give you example of my power based GS + Hammer warrior:

2 out 7 major traits are focus on condition removal + reduction
2 out of 3 utilities I slot are dealing with conditions applied to me
6 out of 6 rune are dealing with condition reduction
1 out 1 food is dealing with condition reduction

This is kind of a free kill for any decently played condition build by the way. I know my condition warrior can eat it for lunch.

Do you not consider this heavy investment?

What exactly do you expect? press a button and win?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

But, given that the following exist for Warrior condition cleansing, but are never used because CI makes them unnecessary, saying “no other options” is flat-out false.

Charge: removes Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize
Mending (3 conditions removed, 20 second cooldown)
Signet of Stamina (all conditions removed, 45 second cooldown, useful passive to let you avoid applications more often)
“Shake it Off!” (1 condition removed AoE, stunbreak, 20 second cooldown, will remove Fear+1 condition)
Restorative Strength (activating a heal skill removes cripple, chill, immobilize, and weakness, applies before healing skill’s effects, so Mending removes those 4 plus 3 others)
Shrug it Off (automatic “Shake it Off!” when affected by 2 or more conditions)
Quick Breathing (Warhorn skills convert a condition to a boon)

If you’re that worried about conditions, you have options aplenty. Heck, 2 points in the Power line + Mending gives you a potential 7 condition cleanse on a 20 second cooldown. That’s insanely efficient.

Seriously don’t act like you know what you are talking about.

Every single one are commonly used by warriors other than Mending, and Restorative Strength. Why? because the raw heal from Mending really sucks. In fact the condition build I used also uses “Shrug it Off” + “Shake it Off!”, and often warrior will use trooper rune just for that additional conditional clear on shout. Our biggest threat is still conditions even with all these. So yeah conditions seems like our weakness based on my play experience.

You can say that warrior have better condition removal options due to CI compare to other classes, but that doesn’t mean our weakness is not conditions. It just means we are a lot more dependent on being able to remove these conditions to get to the enemy to attack them.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Because the “healing signet buff” also came alongside Berserker’s Stance getting changed to be immunity to conditions and Cleansing Ire’s current functionality. Three massive improvements, only one of which had any relation to a healing skill which wasn’t taken before because it was just so much worse than Healing Surge.

You say this because you are a Necro, a condition heavy Necro. Before the “healing signet buff”, there isn’t a huge amount of conditional users like it is today. Warrior lack sustain against other power builds, in which neither Berserker’s Stance change or CI change really enters the argument here. Both of these changes were more for the soft CC done to the warriors. This didn’t change the fact that Healing Surge heals were not enough.

With that said, why are you complaining about CI. There is no way CI can cleanse more conditions than any respectable conditional user can apply. I say that as a condition warrior. Yes I mainly play one in pvp and wvw. CI never ever bothers me. And guess who I am weak against? Yes other conditional users (warriors, necro, ranger, eng, Mesmer), not any power users with CI, and Berserker’s Stance. And yes I have CI + LB + Berserker’s Stance, and nope I cannot cleanse the amount of conditions put onto me.

If you actually have problem with CI, maybe just maybe you sure look at your play style, and your build, or even your own class. It seems only Necro has problem with CI as well.

If you want to change CI, change the conditional damage output first. I say that as a condition warrior.

Here is another one:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTjMdU5ZVIeewJagqgC7iHA66h0nQXnCA-TVSHABEcIAqTJ4iq/UwDAoJlfhs/Aa6DE4EAAwRAgUALKNC-w

This is more of might stacking build. Take a few sec to ramp up, but once up, you will be set.