Guild Wars 2

I really love the engineer. but If you want us to be a mid range class you had better do another buff to the flamethrower, i posted a modest suggestion thread on this myself a week or so ago. Eg also. I know they where recently buffed, but its still insufficient.

Right now, 90% of pvp engy builds revolve around greande, which additimately is most effective at mid range.

SmoothHussler.6387:

Harrier.9380:

Kultas Sunstrider.9218:

Harrier.9380:

Well, OP got some point…

Wow, so many high ranks, it’s impressive. Thief is really overpowered, and this screenshot just proved it.

It’s not a discussion whether thief is op or not. Can’t deny there’s a kittenload of thieves and mesmers in hotjoins though.

Talking about mesmers, here’s another one:

So much for the constant excuses that people in tournaments never run thieves or mesmers…

That isnt whats claimed at all. The claim is mesmers and thiefs arent disproportinally represented in tournies , as they are in hotjoins. Which is true. i do 10 tournies a day, the most common classes are eles and guardians. Third is probably mesmer/ranger.

The positive.

-This was more organized than the sotg before it. And actually had some information that was new. On the whole it was a good and useful SOTG. Thanks to you guys and the devs.

BUT-I think major issues should come first. Whatever the relevant big talking points are. IN this case, custom arenas, visible rankings and the huge issue of incentives to brin gmore players into spvp. Then move down the ladder to more trivial things. For example there was some discussion about mesmers/ele early on. That can be saved for the class rundown.

Something id like to know more about is how they review classes for rebalancing. Given they have gone the slow and steady approach, they need to have frequent balance tweaks. Every month or 2. Im glad they want to add more utilities that are viable, i just hope they dont allow specs that are already powerful to become even more powerful.

Also, the mesmer and thief changes discussed where confusing, cant tell if buff/nerf or playstyle change. Of course -law of unintended consequences means that whatever they intend it might end up as a buff or nerf.
Also most people watching sotg know the classes, theres no need for the devs to give us the overview of the class philosophy.

But, again, thank you to the devs for doing these sotg, i saw over 1500 viewers at one point checking this one out.

80/20. You learn the first 80% really fast, the rest comes at a crawl pace.
One thing is joining a team, because figuring things like rotations out and teamwork out gives you a higher level of insight. Theres only so much progress you can make as an individual. Also post your spec/class and get feedback, and watch good players on twitch.tv streaming.
Especially players who play your class in tournies. Not many high level players stream anymore, but a few still do.

I thought the SOTG was decent. I dont know about the mes changes that sounded …unusual. It might amount to a buff or nerf.
Thief im not sure about it was very vague, like how long after coming out of stealth will a thief need b4 he goes back in. and what do they mean by additional mobility.

Thanks again to the devs for staying in touch w the community.

The most famous/popular engy is Teldoo from EU.

Im curious what kinda crits you get. your not might stacking , and your not up power. so you can crit alot but they dont hit that hard? maybe im missing something?

also, you have nearly no cleasning , other than the #4 on medkit. I guess you do have 2 heals though.
Youve had success with this build in tourny play? Maybe ill give it a whirl. Seems for 1on1 than say, mid team fight.

Go to youtube. Type d/d spellbook zoose.
The first video will probalby be gw2 : elementalist spellbook. Its a guide video by a good elementalist named zoose, and has detailed information on how to play that spec. Its like 19 mins long.

Zoose is slacking on making the s/d video.

xiv.7136:

Well this is coming up today.

Remember guys:

- Keep the answers short, no speeches, no marketing crap

- No “soon, we’re thinking about it, when it’s ready, our plan is to…” – stick to facts, and actual dates of deliverables, the time for optimistic promises is past

- Class balance, e-sports features and competitive mists PVP – no talk about PVE, WvW or anything else apart from mists PVP

- Again, short answers, no speeches, no marketing crap

They cant give hard dates man, they just cant. things can get delayed, be buggy, take longer than expected and this happens ALL the time in game development. I wish they could give fuzzy dates with the caveat that its a current best estimation.

And i wish the community would be realistic if they annouce something isnt ready, if its not ready , its not ready.
But approximate timelines would be better than ‘soon’.

Darnis.4056:

It’s today whoooo.. gonna try to tune in..
I’m still surprised the devs actually do these…

Im glad they do. If i didnt get feedback from devs directly id assume spvp wasnt on there radar and shop for another product.

Add it to the long list of problems with hotjoins.

This has more to do with a hotjoin issue than thief issue. IF you brough a 4 thief group to a tourny game where the skill cap on players is higher and you run into premades fairly frequently said 4 thief group would be in for being farmed.

Single target rangeD? coudl well be rifle warriors. Though i dont know that its very viable man.

Paulytnz.7619:

Fix for the flamethrower missing – Stop moving before attacking stationary targets. There done. It only misses if you are MOVING and trying to target a stationary target. Dunno why this happens but it does.

Try not moving in pvp=dead.

Yap heres a good build for mesmers.
30/0/0/30/10.
Typically gren traits up the power tree. Flame on crit etc.

You want to use something like rabid amulet for the condition and toughness. By going up alcemy you get life.

If your facing a shatter mesmer, you want to elixir s if he stuns you with gun and goes in for the shatter. Not before. If hes a phanthasm mesmer, you want to dodge the greatsword spinning clone, its where alot of his damage comes from. THen hit it w grens, then focus the real mesmer.

If vs shatter mesmer, after the initial stun break, hes on a 26 second cd b4 he can stun you again, but only 11 seconds before he can shatter again, you want to look for a clone that speed runs to you, soon as you see you see a super fast clone coming at you, dodge TOWARDS the mesmer, this triggers the shatters and they wont hurt you.

Mesmers have like NO condition removal, so using pistol/grens is good vs them, you can wear em down pretty solidly.

You do need to be fairly accurate with your gren toss’s. And if your using p/s you can use block for 1 more shatter dodge. Or even better p/p and the #5 when hes going ot shatter (if you see three cloens up its a good bet). By putting that down round yourself as he goes for the shatte r they get immobilized and blow up before hitting you.

This class match up actually favors the engy-ONCE you get enough experience. I win over 90% of my 1vs1 with mesmers. Alot of that has to do w knowning the class and getting crucial dodges.

Some additional buffs to flamethrower /eg they are super close to being viable right now.

A little bit more and they are good to go.

hey im curious as to what experienced tournament players have found to be useful in 5vs5 tournament play.
I mean tournament play specifically because alot of specs hold up in hotjoins but border on useless vs organized competition and teamplay.

So far , i have found only 3 specs.
1. Standard 100 nades.
2. Power exlir grenade/condition. By might stacking, you build up both power and condition damage for your pistol/grens 30/0/0/30/10.
3. Some variety of bunker build (only seems to really cut the mustard on legacy of the foefire since lack of stability wont hurt you that much on this map. )
Ive found #2 to be the best overall, and a fully viable spec that holds its own no matter the level of play.

Ive seen bomb side point holders do ok, but not really well enough to be truly viable.

Im wondering if anyone else out there is a hardcore tourny player and found any other viable specs? i cant find a way to make flamethrower viable ( though it can be ok). I cant find a way to make turrets useful at all.
So once again based of proven experience in tournament play, not hotjoin.
Any ideas for something new to try?

Valkyriez.6578:

We are all guessing whether there is even a rating system in the first place.

There no evidence of this mythical rating anywhere, oh the joys of a supposedly hidden MMR.

The devs announced it, they arent lying.

It would be nice to have more info on how this mmr works. Also it is limited in its potency by the limited population playing tournis.

sorrow.2364:

Archaon.6245:

Sadly everyone else don’t give a kitten about 1vs1 here…this is a team based game you know and it will never be balanced for 1vs1, try metin2 next time..if ppl don’t pvp because they want a 1vs1 balanced game no problem for me, it’s like saying i want to play wow but i don’t want to farm stuff so ppl must change all mechanics because of me….lol….don’t think so…if you want to play a team based game you’re welcome…otherwise metin2 that way —>

Where exactly is team based balance if almost every situation in tPvP is 1vs1?
Guild Wars was team based, where you have to fight with your team in every situation. This game is just imbalanced. Period.

theres plenty of tteam fights or 2on2’s in games, and sometimes 1on1. Some classes/specs are better at 1on1, others in teamfights. Also, 1vs1 balance ISNT possible. If you allow build diversity players find ways to specalize, giving up 1vs1 power for team utility (ie mesmers who run illusion of life, portal, timewarp-3 of the 4 utilties geared towards team play).
Additionaly , no game in HISTORY with diverse classes has 1on 1 balance. Not wow, not league of legends, not dota.
Its not even a reasonable request, its literally impossible to do.
Team balance is more managable because alot of variables washout.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

daydream.2938:

No they are not. My god some top teams (the few that are left) dont even run thiefs.

U discarb that easily Jumper and other thieves that left of the lack or ladder etc , from ur usa servers ? :P

Point is, its not like ele, where close to 100% of top teams ran one. Im not claiming thiefs are weak, they arent. Im saying they are not OP.

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

For credibility sake,please post proof of more than 200 tournaments wins at least before telling others to “learn to play” 200 is not a big number anyways,maybe for hotjoin fanboys it is too much :X

200 tourny wins is when you START to stop being a noob. Not when you become good.
So this as a minimun threshold yes.

SmoothHussler.6387:

Jax.5261:

IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE BURST, LEARN TO DODGE.
If you don’t know how to dodge properly you deserve to have a hard time. If there was no dodging in this game it would be completely different, but there is, so it isn’t.

Whoa there partner. Thieves are the only class which can spam their highest dps attacks more than once every so often. There are only 2 dodges. You’re angry post has a problem of economy here do you see it?

As for me, either Anet will fix this problem, or pvp will die on the vine in this game. There are simply 2 classes which dominate the landscape (yes hotjoin, what the majority of people are playing…dont act all elitist as tournament games are ghost towns moreso than hotjoin).

People can defend decisions till their blue in the face, it wont change the fact that mesmers and thieves are horribly balanced vis a vis other classes in pvp.

No they are not. My god some top teams (the few that are left) dont even run thiefs. And mesmers while more common and useful are hardly OP , ESPECIALLY 1on1. Most mesmers spec with illllusion of life, portal and timewarp for tournies, so 3 out of the 4 utilities are for group fights making them average at 1on1 at best. (assuming vs equally skilled player).
If the mesmer speced more for 1on1 his overall contribution would drop enough that youd be better off bringing a ranger or something else.

Im sorry you have trouble with these classes, but dont speak for all of us ( i main engy).
I wonder, do you do alot of tournies or mostly hotjoin?

Right, well the point stands, rng is annoying. And engies have like 5 or 6 rng abilities (counting the tooltip versions).

Vuh.1328:

If engineers could put out the same amount of crying as thieves did with the rng skills from steal they would probably change something..

Steal isnt rng. it varies based on the class you steal from. But its always the same thing for each class.

Jackalrat.5493:

I am really tired of these, “Here’s a strategy to beat Mesmers/Thieves – therefore they are not OP!”

Does it occur to these posters that those are the only two classes that are so difficult to counter? And that they’re -all- difficult to counter, not just you Mr. Elite Ninja? You’re not a special snowflake, thieves and mesmers kick the crap out of SPvP all day.

How do you counter the other classes in the game? You have a lot of options! Like you should. They’re straight forward, fun fights. Doesn’t mean you can ignore counter play. You still have to dodge, control, buff, and debuff appropriately, and misplays will still get you killed.

The point is to fight those TWO classes only, players have to play at a higher level than is required to fight the other classes, even if the thief/mesmer are of equal skill to them.

Plus, who hasn’t walked into a massive crowd of enemies only to realize 2/3rds of them are Mesmer clones (or more) and just thought, “Wow…this is kind of stupid.”

They arent difficult to counter, thats the piont. They are difficult for NEW players to counter.

mbh.8301:

Should the toss effect for elixers be something you can choose between before the match starts? I envisioned each batman belt skill being changeable.

Maybe?
Best I could come up with.

Idk sounds like a huge mechanic overall.
Just making it something reliable and not RNG would be good enough.

Yes the rngs can be quite annoying.
Exlir h, exlirs s on the toss, exlir U.
Heck, even our ultimate-elixir X.

I like the combat/not combat split.
I wish exlir S just granted 1 or the other reliably on its toss.
I wish exlir U was just ‘you cant be healed’. And had a reliable toss effect.

I wish exlir X did something unique, but atm i wish it just turned you into the tornado reliably.

New map and class changes. Alas the changes where underwhelming, and didnt address the main desires for developing a competitive scene.

Visionary.5681:

New players join Spvp.

Get owned on their warrior , engi , necro , ranger, guardian, by a 3 Thief 2 Mesmer team.

They then think , why should i bother spending weeks learning this class , when i can insta-roll a theif or Mes, then start owning ?

They reroll to Thief or Mes.

New players join Spvp on their warrior , engi , necro , ranger, guardian.

You own them easilly with your 2minutes Thief/Mesmer experience.

Guess what class they go and reroll?

This is essentially Spvp. In an ideal world, you wouldnt need to nerf thief or mesmer, just actually make them harder to play somehow.

Thief and mesmer are not OP, they are just the first class thats easy to kill things with and tricky to fight against. Once you learn em you beat em. I hotjoin rarely, but ill win 95% vs thiefs or mesmres in hotjoin, sometimes even winning 2on1. I play an engy.

IN tournies i win my fair share with them. THiefs/mesy’s are not Op. They are just skillcurve unfriendly.

Kwll.1468:

The main problem is a lot of these people don’t want to learn or seem incapable of learning even the basics let alone the finer points. Its not even a skill issue its more of a commons sense issue. I expect to lose a lot when I solo queue what I do not expect is people not knowing how to finish off downed players ( I mean the actual mechanic of stomping they stand there and dps randomly even when there is no one else around), people attacking 3 points at a time, and multiple people capping empty points to kitten points because of A-nets crappy scoring system. Those three are rampant in your average solo que game. Even when corrected in a non hostile tone during the matches people often continue to do the same things over and over again. It takes a modicum of effort to learn the basics and believe it or not that is too much for a lot of people.

alot of this is bad habits picked up from hotjoin, thats why hotjoins are such kitten. they literally dont teach ppl how to play the game. LIke, 3 ppl standing on an empty point to cap it.

Info on your spec would help us provide better advice. Also, for predicting thief backstab look for basilisk venom buff, not all thiefs in hotjoin run it, but 90% of thiefs in tourny do. YOu see basilisk, backstab is probably coming.

But, ya dodge,dodge, shield5, 4 double tap, grenades. If your bomb kit use a smoke bomb and stand in it. If you want to be really fancy drop smoke bomb, switch to regular weapons double tap shield 4, its a blast finisher, with the combo field you will stealth yourself.

LOTS of things you can do.

Here are some basic tips.

1. Go up alchemy tree. grab iv and II. Run exlir s in ur ultities thats 2 skills u can use to protect yourself, one on a reduced timer.

2. use a shield. Shield 5 will stun them when they hit you. Double tapping 4 will knock them away from you.
3. use toughness and a weapon like flamethower blind, or bomb blind and stand in the aoe from the bomb blindness.
Thats a start. Also remember after hes done spamming a few heartseekers, hes dead on his feet and you got him.

But seriously smoke bomb and stand in it, a thief will just spam and miss miss miss, its perma blind if hes a hs spamming noob.

dropping your ult on them (supply crate) will usually destory them, remember to circle around and nab those heal packs.

The Op has a good point, if only there was some better tools or ways to help new players learn how to really play. instead of the clustermuffin that is hotjoin.

Oni.5429:

Two Mesmers is an absolutely rubbish composition once you hit a half decent level of play.

Oh, you’re talking about hotjoin, yes?

Then why does it matter? Nobody plays to win in hotjoin. Why on earth should they change the game in a mode where for example on capricon the entire team caps their close and zergs to far together?

Just scrap hotjoin and let people learn how to play the game. It would fix so many of the issues people have with multiple Mesmers.

ps: theoretically the best class for hotjoin should be ele/ranger, considering their roaming ability+being the strongest 1v1ers. Phantasmal, while a strong 1v1build (not as good as ranger though!) is absolutely rubbish for everything else.

Doesnt team paradigm EU run double mesmer? Tbh 2 mesmer isnt rubbish, but it isnt great. 2 thiefs is probably rubbish however.
Most classes in fact dont stack well. Ranger, ele, and suprisingly engy stack fairly well.
(engy can play different roles).

Of course, people do this in hotjoins because hotjoins player skill is way lower.

If you tried thief thief, mes , mes , etc vs good players, you would lose, and lose bad.

Just pratice till you can do tournies, then you will stop seeing groups like this, or if you see them ( and your playing with good players and are good yourself), you will stomp them.

Yet again, another hotjoin player complaining bout thiefs/mesmers. While more experienced players just kill them and move on.

I wonder what the percentage of people who think mesmers/thiefs are so OP being hotjoin players is. Im guessing high.

Tellah.8073:

whenever i feel like roflstomping people in spvp i jump on my mesmer and proceed to destroy faces at will. its just too easy. i feel bad for the newer players who cant even target me to get off one measly attack as i bury them in a mountain of dps. its definitely an unpleasant experience. to me the target scrambling together with stealth is the thing that puts mesmers over the top. everyone can dish out high dps cycles but being able to drop target and stealth as their pets continue to deal damage and the opponent has to spend 1-5+ seconds trying to find the target (effectively a daze) is a huge advantage, especially if its a group fight and you either have to sit there and tab 5 or 6 times or find your arrow in the chaos and click on a midget the size of a millimeter on your screen whos running around like a decapitated chicken.

You must be playing against bad people. I roll most mesmers easily.

Wanderer.5471:

Davinci.8027:

If you are saying that mesmer is the best 1v1 class, then it’s a L2 kitten ue. They are hardly the best 1v1 class, and really only excel in a team setting with time warp and good portal usage.

In any MMO, 1v1s are NOT balanced. They shouldn’t be. This would create dynamics in a team setting.
I thought the OP was trolling when making this thread and his post, however I was surprised when I saw how many people agreed with him.

Hotjoins are not the end game of GW2 PvP. Tournaments and 5v5s are.
Hotjoins are only there to help you learn your class, and learn rotations, etc.
The fact that you haven’t discovered how bad mesmers are in 1v1s shows just how much you don’t know about PvP.

Another example: Necromancers are probably the worst 1v1 class. In a team setting, though, they are sometimes invaluable.

just curious what class you play? as a ranger i can 1v1 any other class, but v.good mesmer players seem to have a huge advantage over me – i know all their attacks etc, but you can only dodge so many times/have so many stunbreaks etc lol

A ranger generally should beat a mesmer 1on1. Are you playing a trap ranger?

League of legends is NOT balanced for 1vs1.

Some heros are much stronger early game, others much stronger late game. Some will wipe the floor with others 1vs1 consistantly.

tic.7425:

I’ve actually semi-retired my mesmer. For the most part its not really challenging at all.

The hardest class for me is a necro, because of my (really) limited condition removal. Other than that, a lot of it is just (too) easy, not all mind you, but a lot of it.. I’m no elite PvPer by any stretch, but mesmers sure do make it pretty easy. A lot of times, when i see a 2 on 1, i feel like im going to get a really good challenge.

Been playing MMOs for a long time, the only thing to me more discouraging than playing an "underpowered " class, is playing the fotm “overpowered” one. Hard to believe, but when you see certain classes representation dominating the PvP landscape, there maybe a reason why..

/shrug

hotjoin player? bc mesmers dont dominate the 1vs1 tounry landscape. Nor are they underrepresented.

bhagwad.4281:

Shukran.4851:

balance me some guardian bunker with burst thief.
then the same 2 classes after the balance with a romaing ele, then with a mesmer and ranger….explain me how to do that kind of 1v1 balance

Why do you think it’s difficult? Or even impossible? All we’re saying is that it should be a fair and entertaining 1v1 fight with equal chances for either side to win. That’s not a hard concept to grasp.

It shouldn’t be a faceroll one way or the other.

Its not difficult. its impossible. No game, with any meaningful class variety has EVER in the history of gaming succesfully balanced for 1vs1.

Thats why you do 5vs5 balance because its achievable. 1vs1 balance is a pipe dream.

Aslo, its not always relevant. someone who specs for support might be bad at 1on1, but dominant in team fights. Why cant players make trade offs like that.

But mostly its about the fact that the OP is asking the devs to do something that has NEVER been done EVER by anyone , in any game, in the history of gaming. Balance diverse classes and roles all for 1on1.

Fighting mesmers is all about doding at the right time. (the sword three ability that sends a clone running at you super fast.).

If you dodge the shatters you can get the mesy. I play an engy, i beat maybe 85% of the mesmers i run into 1on1.
The ones i lose to are good mesy’s, and usually get me because i made a mistake.

If you look at people complaining about thief/mesmer. you will find the vast majority of them are hotjoin players. And very few, if any are top players.
I can kinda agree that hotjoin experience is effected by these class’s, but that isnt a balance issue.

The only thing about these classes remotely op is timewarp on the mesmer.

Balancing for 1on1 WOULD be the way to go, if it was remotely possible.

No game, with different class diversity has EVER balanced succesfully for 1on1.

Not world of warcraft, not league of legends, not dota2.

None of them. 5vs5 balance is managable as individual class issues wash out more and more in team games. 5vs5 balance is what shoudl be aimed for because 5v5 balance IS POSSIBLE.

Thats one of the reasons its crude, it doesnt have enough material to work with

Hidden rank definately exists, but its crude, and often doesnt give you good matchsups.

only 1 in 5?
quitters, afkers, bugs. when i solo q about 25% of my games arent evenly matched, if not more.

Thiefs are unkillable? When did that happen? ive killed like 50 today.

1vs1 balance is bsaically impossible.

5vs5 is more reasonable goal. Besides rock paper scissors prevents this.

Ie, a bunker will beat a power dps in 1on1, all things being equal.
A condition necro will beat a bunker all things equal, in the long run.

A condition necro will (more often than 50%) lose to a power dps 1on1. ( minus power warrior who will die face flat to the necro).

there has never, in the history of any game , ever, been a game that managed 1vs1 balance with class diversity. yes it would be ideal, the problem is, its not possible.
Team balance is managable.

Hotjoins are just a bad experience overall. All theif/mesmer groups lose badly in tournament play. But in hotjoins where the skillcap is alot lower i can imagine that would be frustrating.