Guild Wars 2

Behellagh.1468:

Elonian Leather Square via Spool of Thick Elonian Cord requires 50 Cured Thick Leather Squares, needing 3 Thick Leather Sections per Square.

So it’s not just Silk that required 3. If anything they matched the the Silk Bolt requirements to the Cured Thick Leather Square which always needed 3.

So what you are saying is that changing from 3 scraps to 2 wouldnt have much of an impact considering the leather is in the toilet and that the amount of silk/bolt is mostly superfluous? Considering leather has been 3 sections/square since release and the price is still bottomed out since demand isn’t as high for it based on use?

Ohoni.6057:

profit =/= reward. Just because you say it isn’t so, doesn’t make what you are saying true.

So, you internally concede that I’m right, but can’t fit that into your ideology so you refuse to admit to it?

No, and I really have no idea how you came to that assumption but I added a comma for you.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

eithinan.9841:

You should have stayed and trolled the maize farm and messed it up for them. blocking anyone who whispered or complained.

And then gotten a 72 hour suspension when they reported you with the proof you were griefing them. Yah, excellent plan. (Rolls eyes).

The person who got grief from players and abused would get a 72 hour suspension? That seems like very bad policy on anets part. I would hope that when it was addressed in review the actual bad seeds would get suspended instead. You know, all the people who reported this hypothetical person. Do you think those screen shots would have the verbal abuse on them? I bet a bunch of them would.

I also like how messed up this place is where no one is calling on anet to clean up these toxic players. Kinda like suggesting to people to just roll over and take it because the police wont do anything. If anet gets screen shots of abusive actions and words they really need to respond to it if there is proof.

You should have stayed and trolled the maize farm and messed it up for them. blocking anyone who whispered or complained.

Ohoni.6057:

[snip]

Ohoni.6057:

[snip]

No, your wrong . No matter how many words you use you are wrong about rewards and profit…

TP profits =/= participation rewards (dungeon rewards)

Your analogies and examples are bad. They are completely off base and have nothing to do with reality. I even fixed you analogy because it was wrong. Your analogy had 2 sources for wealth going into the River(economy) and that isn’t how it works.

profit =/= reward. Just because you say it isn’t so doesn’t make what you are saying true.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s like you keep shouting “If you can’t accept that carrots grow in the ground, and therefore cannot be compared to lettuce, then we have nothing to discuss,” while I keep saying “I understand that one grows below ground and one above, and there are reasonable discussions to be had about different cultivation methods, but that are both also still vegetables, and both can be compared for relative nutritional value.”

But that isnt what I or you are saying. I am saying there is a difference between newly created rewards and TP profits with the multitude of reasons WHY they are different, and you are covering your ears and going “LALALALALALALA, I cant hear you, Here’s an irrelevant analogy”

This is why I hate analogies and don’t like to deal with them.

Behellagh.1468:

Again the thread turns. Now it’s about the those devilish TP flippers.

Notice how any complaints involving the BLTP and economy turn towards the “flippers” “TP barons” or “speculators”. The issue is, for some who feel Entitled, they let their envy override their common sense when it comes to the subject on the TP.

The wheels on the bus go round and round…..

Rauderi.8706:

My actual point is, silk acquisition isn’t terrible. The actual material amount is where the imbalance sits. So, in a basic adjustment formula, what would the thought/impact be on making the relevant recipes 2 per bolt/square/ingot and 100 per intermediate ascended material? Still doesn’t solve the cloth-insignia balance, but making thick leather and mithril more in line with silk would promote more trading between them.

Take a little from this and take a little from that to balance. This seems like a good balanced suggestion to even out the disparity between weight classes with regards to ascended armor.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s like if you have two pipes pouring sludge into a river, and one comes from a factory, and one comes from some magical hole in space that nobody can explain, ok, very different sources, but what matters is the sludge pouring into the river, and ideally both sources could be plugged up.

This analogy is wrong and Ill tell you why. The River(economy) is not fed by both the “factory”(TP profits) and “magic hole in space”(rewards). Instead rewards are like precipitation that fills the river and TP profits are more like a waterwheel. This water wheel in the analogy only impacts the river by taking about 15% of the water from it.

I find it interesting that your view on the gold in the economy is analogous to sludge but that isn’t what it is.

Ohoni.6057:

A real world analogy would be if you saw $50 on the ground, and you just stare at it, refusing to touch it. Another person comes along 5 minutes later and picks up the $50, and you complain that it isn’t fair he’s $50 richer.

No. . .that analogy has absolutely no relevance to the discussion at hand.

With regards to TP flipping and the profits from it this is a perfect analogy for those who complain about the TP flipping.

Ohoni.6057:

The only difference is that I understand that profit IS also reward.

No it isnt. Profit is gold returned from invested gold that was already a reward. A reward is items/gold created from nothing. TP profits =/= dungeon rewards.

If you cant acknowledge that one has a positive impact on gold inflation and one has a negative impact on it and the ramification of these two different sources of wealth in the macro economy then there is no reason to continue any discussion with you. You are simply ignoring what you do not want to hear which is a waste of everyone’s time.

Ohoni.6057:

Here’s the rest of the quote. Care to address it?

Yes, I did, several pages ago. We’ve already addressed all the potential problems with making this sort of change and come up with solutions to them, so what we’re left with is the “pro: we want this,” vs. “con: . . .”

Maybe your quote style has made it so you missed a few of the cons brought up. I would reread the thread here of I were you. There are plenty.

Mojo Gris Gris.5941:

This is good stuff. Tell me more about this. I read somewhere in this thread that leather has a salvage item of each tier more than cloth. Does anyone think that adding one additional for cloth would help bring the two into a better equilibrium?

From the drop research I have read on this which is a bit outdated and could use a larger sample size, you are correct.

Ohoni.6057:

This is where we disagree. The reason “because I want it” is only a compelling pro if backed up with some reason it will benefit the whole with minimal negative impact.

Ah, ok. So the problem is that you don’t know what the word “pro” means. [Snip cheap shot}

Here’s the rest of the quote. Care to address it?

eithinan.9841:

The reason it is incumbent on the person who “wants it” to prove their change would be a positive one is because it would require the reallocation of resources to achieve the desired outcome when there is a working system in place already.

This goes back to, you still haven’t proven there is a problem outside of unintentionally pointing out how leather and other mats are under performing.

Ohoni.6057:

Because if you keep those comments in context, the logic is simple. Every outcome is decided by weighing the pros and the cons. What they “should do” is the outcome of that consideration, so while “because we want it” is a compelling “pro,” it only becomes what they “should do” if it outweighs any competing “cons.” I believe in this case it does, but in facetious situations like the “give everyone everything right away” example, the cons would outweigh the pros.

This is where we disagree. The reason “because I want it” is only a compelling pro if backed up with some reason it will benefit the whole with minimal negative impact. THEN you need to weigh those pros and cons. The reason it is incumbent on the person who “wants it” to prove their change would be a positive one is because it would require the reallocation of resources to achieve the desired outcome when there is a working system in place already.

This goes back to, you still haven’t proven there is a problem outside of unintentionally pointing out how leather and other mats are under performing.

Bernie.8674:

eithinan.9841:

Since you don’t do fractals why do you feel you need ascended armor?

Need is irrelevant. Colin explicitly stated that ArenaNet categorizes ascended armor as gear that was never intended to be a grind. Furthermore, why would anyone be happy being at 3% less stats than everyone else? Finally, when did I ever say I don’t do fractals?

My mistake, I thought you had given a run down of the content you participated in from the post I quoted. Ascended armor isn’t a grind unless you make it one. A grind is being required to run the same content over and over again for the next carrot.

For instance, if you had to run COF for a small chance at ascended gloves and that was the ONLY way to get ascended gloves, that would be a grind. Going out and finding/farming mats specifically for certain items is not a grind, Not when Everything in the WORLD has a chance to help you progress towards your goal. Again, there is a difference between something that you need to GRIND out and a long term goal that does not affect your ability to do any content available.

Ohoni.6057:

No one has made any compelling reasons to change things either.

Because we want it. That’s a compelling reason.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, which is why I never said that they should give us everything that we want

Well?? How can anyone discuss your points when you contradict yourself.

If something has a compelling reason to do something then it should be done, right?

Ohoni.6057:

You do know that cutting sentences in half to remove their context is the weakest form of discourse, right?

So is editing out who you are quoting and cherry picking from different posters to muddy the discussion. Cutting out 1 sentence from a full paragraph is just as bad about losing the context of something, even worse when you lump it in with other people quotes. You are then creating your own context for the quotes which is disingenuous at best or malicious at worst.

Ohoni.6057:

the market still needs some fundamental changes made to it because this is a game and players are entitled

all I did to this was cut out a comma.

Ohoni.6057:

No, but efforts should be taken to balance out their rewards with everyone else so that things don’t become too stratified, and that is not a “punishment.” The more the make, the less of it you need, and the more of it should go to the public good.

I believe this indicates you have a more socialist POV on life? Nothing wrong with that but it isn’t how Evon Gnashblade works.

Rauderi.8706:

none of it makes a difference in the fact that Ascended cloth crafting is imbalanced with the rest of the system. The silk market is just a symptom of that.

I’m not sure what other good ideas will come with reintroducing a more positive take on Ascended crafting, but changing insignia seems like a solid one with at least a little support from ‘both sides’.

I like the idea of opening all the T7 mats for insignia use. I suggested it around page 4.

Ohoni.6057:

I do not believe anyone has yet made a compelling reason why they shouldn’t give the players what they want here.

No one has made any compelling reasons to change things either.

Ohoni.6057:

the market still needs some fundamental changes made to it because this is a game and players are entitled

Well, I cant really say that’s a compelling reason but “thumbs up” for the honesty.

Bernie.8674:

The old fashioned way was that I played through the entire story, completing every mission (including bonus objectives) along the way. When I reached Granite Citadel I dumped a good portion of the mats and gold I had acquired along the way into the best set of armor available in the game (stat-wise), and I was done. The old fashioned way isn’t available any more. I still play the game. I get my daily completionist achievement almost every day. The difference is that I’m going on 10 months with only 3/6 pieces of ascended armor. The weapon I have came out of a weapons chest that I lucked into during guild missions.

Since you don’t do fractals why do you feel you need ascended armor?

Ohoni.6057:

Of course part of this is that they need to better communicate these changes. They can’t just slip a new faucet in under the radar and hope players notice it fast enough to offset the new sink they announce, they need to announce both at once.“We added a new recipe for a backpack. . .” and elsewhere in the notes “we upped the drop rate for silk scraps in Silverwastes by 2%” or something. Really they only need to say enough to communicate to the savvy speculators “there will be no supply/demand changes here, do not waste your time.” The regular players will just do their thing and the economy will balance out as a result.

I can see why some would object to this, it would cut into their phat, phat economic PvPing, but it’s for the good of the game as a whole.

This isn’t the worst idea when you clarified what you meant. The issue I see happening is that with clearly announced mat faucets it would end up pushing the price lower during the “faucet opening” and then higher afterwards. Savvy market speculators would pull most of their buy orders that make the buy order walls and crash the price during this time, then just buyout all the under priced items afterwards. For better or worse those giant price walls are necessary for items to have value over vendor+1.

Here is something that i think annoys a lot of people out there. The prices of everything on the TP is set by other players. At this point in the games life there are some very wealthy players having a small impact on some things on the market. BUT the majority of common items like silk and other key things cant be manipulated to such a degree. They are too high of a volume in trades and in the end the market comes into balance between supply/demand.

I am not against faucets being opened, but they also need to be closed. When a faucet opens and the material loses its value because of that, people leave that farm when it hits bottom. Then the faucet closes, and demand starts to eat away at the lower priced supply. If you announce any faucet openings or closings you just help out anyone trying to manipulate those markets.

The reality is I know a few people who have 100’s of thousands of silk bolts from when they went from 2 scraps ->3. They quit the game a year ago but may come back for the xpac.

tigirius.9014:

RNG gold TP DRRNG it’s RNG plus DRgold cloth that was only available from Karma vendors,karma TP vendors in towns, a Karma DR everything in game that is a reward. CAN get these with gold for the TP loot, DR, RNG.

That argument to me is no less irrelevant than someone saying world poverty doesn’t exist because I got a paycheck today.

You can get karma armor from temples in orr that can serve you for any content available. I also convert my karma to linen with the mystic forge which isnt really behind a RNG wall.

Ohoni.6057:

it’s just to control the natural balance points around which the daily price fluctuates, so that maybe it’s a little high one day or a little low the next, but the month-to-month average falls within the intended range.

So you want anet to manipulate the faucets for materials BEFORE they see the impact of new content? No. That is a terrible idea. There would be a much greater possibility of making the markets less stable doing this or even wipe the market out if they misjudge the adjustment.

What they are doing now by opening the faucets and closing them keeps things in balance without too heavy a hand on the economy. The bold part of the quote is what they are doing now with regards to silk. Only anet lets it fluctuate between 1.5s and 2.5sish seasonally based on demand. When it went higher wintersday came along with its silk faucet and a 1 time adjustment. No player can singularly determine what the “intended range” of cost is for any item in game. That is for the entire populace to choose with their ability to buy from sell listing or to place a buy order at what they are willing to pay.

I have a lot of buy orders for things that may or may not ever get filled. I just recently finished mjolnir when charged cores and lodes dropped in price because I had orders for a couple hundred of each at what I was willing to pay for them. but I didnt follow the market trend for that, and I was happy to wait. Same with silk. When it dropped recently I got a lot around 1.3s because I had decided a long time ago that was what I was willing to pay for it and placed orders at that price. For a long time others were willing to pay more than that so I had to wait.

laokoko.7403:

My suggestion is if you care to ask that question. You might as well buy cheap blue and green to salvage since 1-150 take very short time and you dont’ need to spend much if any that way.

This. Dont spend gold for mf%

Ayrilana.1396:

micro managing.

phys.7689:

one off corrections, not micro managing

Bernie.8674:

If you don’t micromanage markets …..

Shiyo.3578:

John Smith.4610:

You don’t micromanage markets to maintain equilibrium. Not only is it an incredible amount of work you can never be wrong in, it’s not physically possible inside a live game environment.

You assume that absolute parity is required inside of tiers, I don’t necessarily agree.

Except this is LITERALLY what you did,

Astraea.6075:

one-off corrections =/= micro-management

Everyone is throwing around accusation about micro managing the TP and market. I brought up the term earlier in THIS thread in reference to the t6>t5>t4>t3>t2>t1 price lock subject. Not everything suggested would be micro managing. the Silk change was a well thought out, intentional market shift by the devs to bring value to a core material in the game. Now that the material has value they can do adjustments to the market without destroying it through rewards. Also the “use elonian leather/deld steel for insignias/inscriptions” suggestion wouldn’t be micromanaging.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Just give us the option to downscale our loot level to match the map level and this is solved. The change pre megaserver may have been wanted but now it isn’t by those of us who craft what we kill not what we buy.

A level 80 with downleveled loot could grab linen cloth or wool quite easily and prices would fall.

I agree, This would make farming the t2-4 mats a lot easier and it would have an effect on undervalued t5 mats as well by shutting down the extra t5 salvage rewards.

tigirius.9014:

The frustration comes from the game going from an all currency (karma) system of buying gear which was way easier and more satisfying because that wasn’t designed as a tide me over in place of the lack of new content that they had (and allowed players to quickly gear up without using that as a crutch to keep people which is far superior to) [as opposed to] the grind they have now for gold for each character for each account across the board instead of simply making karma viable again as a currency.

You can get lvl 80 exotic Karma armor from the temples in a variety of stat choices, this satisfies the gear needs for any content.

Nike.2631:

I think any impulse to create a “T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1” set of values for materials is fatally flawed, leaving out the effects on supply created by the distribution of player character levels across the 1-80 spectrum.

If anything its entirely deliberate that lower level character have an easier time generating some highly prized materials – allowing them to get a toe-hold in the economy selling off their drops as they are leveling up.

I agree and would say that it is working as intended, and in my opinion good design.

Ohoni.6057:

Each time they make a change to the game that would significantly alter that relationship again, they would need to also make a counterbalancing change. Long story short, they would not need to micromanage anything unless they were already making a change that would shift the markets, and when they do, they only need to correct for the change they’re already making. It’s sort of a “you break it, you buy it” situation.

I got lost at straight curve.

[Snip, misplaced superiority]

So everytime they would make a change they would need to “make a counterbalancing change” to every other mat to keep it balanced? That is micromanaging. What you are saying contradicts itself, just like “straight curve”.

Ohoni.6057:

[Snip]

I could not care even slightly less about material promotion, but if ANet views it as a problem, they can just adjust the recipes accordingly to provide/require more/less mats. It’s not rocket surgery.

[Snip]

Everything I [Snipped] leads down the path of Anet having to micromanage just about everything to satisfy(impossible) your desire for price control and what YOU feel is the proper price.

As to what I left. Whether you care about it or not, material promotion is a system in place in the game that has influence on the cost of materials. This is just another example from you that shows, no matter how many words you type, how narrow your understanding is. And of course, your solution to any foreseeable/unforeseeable issue with material promotion is more micromanagement.

Argon.1563:

Obtena.7952:

Other people that sleep, eat food, etc… have more ascended armor than you. If there is a break in logic here, it’s showing.

If you say so, dear. Last time I checked, CasualWars2 was the game branded as being “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.”.

I think I might just switch mains to a light or heavy character, because they take ~a third less Damask to make their armour sets, so that might be a bit closer to the realm of reality.

and the wheels on the bus go round again to “You don’t need Damask or ascended armor to play any of the content” Since this statement is true, the “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.” remain true. Just because someone feels Entitled to BIS armor doesn’t mean they need or deserve it.

Then are they removing the requirement of WvW map comps from the whole 100% map completion?

Ohoni.6057:

like 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2.

Also, Silk is the only t5 mat that is even close to that 1.5s mark. it has been around 1.8-2.0 for a little while which is a lot closer than the 44c mithril has been hanging around at.

Anything about this?

Ohoni.6057:

As I noted up thread, I’d be looking for something in this range: The current progression, from T1 up, is 1.9, 2.9, 3.9, 4.9, 2.4, 0.5. It should probably be more like 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2. The prices should not be at vendor, but they shouldn’t be so far from vendor either. Anything above vendor*2 is bonus.

You are Entitled to your opinion, I disagree with it. I think the prices should not be so constrained and that the prices should be based on supply/demand principles. Your 0.5->2s progression is not possible without an enormous amount of micro managing. It is also impossible with the economics of material promotion where you get about 1/3 of T+1 mats from the previous. the promotion recipes cost 250 t? mats and on average you receive 80ish T?+1.

Ohoni.6057:

T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1

Ohoni.6057:

But again, my preference would be to lower the cost of all of them to at most the cost of Leather, if not lower.

So you want to crash ALL the ore,wood,cloth,leather markets to vendor+1.

Obtena.7952:

Who’s not reading posts?

Me, I tune out when some people post. I find a single quote and work off that. At this point the same arguments keep coming up. some of them are valid, and some of them are counter to the way the economy works, and some are just absurd.

OT: leather dropped a little in price. It really needs to have a material sink that isn’t the zephyrites.

Which is it? Do you want the clear and simple progression of prices based off tier of mat or do you want lower silk prices?

Ideally? Both. Why not? If forced to choose, I think a clear progression from T1->T6 is more important, but silk could be cheaper too.

By the first quote you think silk should be priced higher considering the prices of other cloth mats, the second crashes the prices of all cloth following your logic.

I’m not sure that you understand how math works, but the expression: T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1 can also mean that the prices of items in T4 and below should be lower than they are. The current progression, from T1 up, is 1.9, 2.9, 3.9, 4.9, 2.4, 0.5. It should probably be more like 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2.
[/quote]

So you don’t want to take the cost/benefit of upgrading materials into account at all? That is a big mechanic to ignore.

Ohoni.6057:

Like I said, nobody is expecting them to be micromanaged to the point that they retain an absolute fixed price, but would it be too much to ask that a system be maintained in which the following is always true (aside from brief corrective swings):

Within a single material type: T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1

Ohoni.6057:

The argument isn’t one of ignorance of this fact, but rather of a difference of opinion between those that believe that the current natural level is acceptable, and those who do not. We would like to see changes made that would lower the natural level.

Which is it? Do you want the clear and simple progression of prices based off tier of mat or do you want lower silk prices. By the first quote you think silk should be priced higher considering the prices of other cloth mats, the second crashes the prices of all cloth following your logic. It is impossible to have both.

Ohoni.6057:

he just has the option of having more. No character in the game needs more than two one-handers or one two-hander,

No character in the game needs Ascended armor. They have the option of getting them.

Red Queen.7915:

Isn’kitten I could’ve sworn it said something like “time is running out” on it, so I thought it was today’s item…
Eh, my bad. It’s still in the shop, though^^

i really love the language filter.

Ensign.2189:

If you want to make the argument for 3), asymmetry in material requirements, argue for increasing the requirements of mithril ore, elder wood, and thick leather to 300 as well so it isn’t easy to dismiss as another flavor of argument 1).

This is what I have been saying. The people who are arguing for logical pricing for the different tiers of mats are calling for it too. I know ohoni has mentioned he wanted t5 mats to cost more than t4 mats earlier.

Ohoni.6057:

Like I said, nobody is expecting them to be micromanaged to the point that they retain an absolute fixed price, but would it be too much to ask that a system be maintained in which the following is always true (aside from brief corrective swings):

Within a single material type: T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1

The real problem is leather. It is way under valued and underutilized

Ohoni.6057:

I only salvage Cloth armor from my SW bags. Metal and Leather armors get forged until they are Cloth armor.

Is that really efficient? I salvage cloth and just vendor metal/leather. The odds of getting more silk than the vendor value of 4+greens seems risky to me.

yes. it also good for the rares that come.

maddoctor.2738:

So everyone has to pay 336.276g for their insignia, which means the non-insignia parts of the armors are:

Light: 261
Medium: 118
Heavy: 164

Which means Light armors cost more than double of the Medium armor if you exclude the insignia which are common for all weights.

This as well as the price of leather on the TP tells me there is a problem with the leather markets, not the cloth ones.

phys.7689:

Unfortunately the game cannot simulate the opportunity created by a design that isnt quite hitting the mark.

You are not the one who determines whether the game design is “hitting the mark” or not.

Wanze.8410:

Ohoni.6057:

That’s almost exponentially more expensive!

Can one of you economy buffs tell me what this means?

Hey look who popped his head up still quoting people without their names. I have no idea what hes saying here.

Ahem

dietzero.3514:

SilverThorn.5047:

So I finished crafting all 3 sets to share across my characters. I used 3 scraps per bolt recipe. If it reverts back to two bolts…. who’s gonna compensate me??? just saying

No one. That is how patches and balancing works.

Lets balance it the other way. Double the requirements for t5 leather and ore.

Otherwise its a big Kitten you to everyone who has already made their gear.

phys.7689:

Nike.2631:

I spent some more time looking over the recipes and thinking after removing a hasty response earlier and I think I have my ducks in order this time ((quack!))

If I were king I would be looking at two changes to shift some of the emphasis off of cloth and onto the other time-gated materials~

• Reduce the cloth required by 1 and increase the leather required by 1 for Ascended light armor Coats and Pants. This will slightly reduce the minimum number of days a Tailor needs to produce the time-gated materials for a complete set of light armor.

• Allow Leatherworkers to use 3 Elonian Leather Squares instead of 3 Bolts of Damask when making Insignia. Likewise allow Armorsmith’s to use 3 Deldrimor Steel instead of 3 Bolts of Damask when making Insignia. This will reduce some of the (intense) competition Tailors face from other crafters for the Bolts of Damask that are available and would make the other two classes more able to sell their material and/or finished insignia.

why not have an insignia formula that uses elonian leather and another one that uses deldrimor steel give all of jobs access to any of them.1

i would also reduce the amount of silk required to 50, 2 but i doubt they would do that unless they had a lot of new sinks they thought would be effective.(this would be more ideal, because silk could retain value, while ascended can be less grindy)

1. Too big of a change, That would be adding a whole new line of material refinement to the different professions and make them too homogenized. Nike’s suggestion on the insignias does the same thing on a macro scale your idea does but without the muddling of materials.

2. Please just let this drop. It really shouldn’t happen especially when there are other suggestions on the table that would do good things for the whole TP. The only thing cutting the req. for silk in damask would do is crash that market to nothing. I do not want to go back to the days when I would vendor my silk like I am my leather now.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

[SNIP]
to me, none of these are good reasons to keep a flawed system.

I dont agree at all that its a flawed system because its working as intended.

agree wanze.

MithranArkanere.8957:

1. This one is just a result of sources of silk not compensating consumption in relation to other basic materials. So people see the other basic materials having prices more or less within reasoable ranges, then they look at cloth and go “Woah. Something’s definitely wrong here!”.

I would argue there is something wrong with the other “basic materials” on the market. You can’t say there isn’t something wrong with leather…

…and the wheels on the bus go round and round….

To Paraphrase:

Gene Archer.8560:

Just a quick heads up to people in this thread:

“Low Priced” =/= “Thriving, Healthy Market”

Please stop confusing the two.

gumoor.5674:

Oh wait…I’m not killing enough grawl! Lol…it’s kinda’ hard to play every aspect of the game like I do and not kill your fair share of grawls. Ok, I don’t play the grawl fractal. So, are you saying that the vast majority of large skulls drop there? I’m just saying that if it takes three large skulls to craft one, and I’ve only obtained enough for one in two years…then either something is broken or the TP is flooded with duped god skull weapons, or the TP cost of both skulls and weapons should be much higher. Any other possibilities…constructive ones?

Punctuation fixed for you. The truth is until I tried my hand at farming grawl solely for the skulls I had gotten maybe 3-5 since release. when I went to the different farming locations I easily finished the collection. It took a couple days. The difference in skulls you get between farming grawl and killing the ones you randomly come across is very large.

DakotaCoty.5721:

eithinan.9841:

LOL, he’s complaining about 30 gold. Spend 2 casual playing sessions running dungeons and you got your gold back.

Could quite easily get 30g back in a single day.
AC 1-3 = 4.5g
CoF 1-2 = 2.5g (I think)
TA – 3g (?)
CM 1-3 = 4g

etc…

I’m more shocked that he feels cheated because he knew what his reward was but instead decided to carry on with the collection and then complain about it. Seems… odd.

Yeah, that too. I figured 3 paths/day was casual based on my playing. I could grind out a bunch of dungeons but only do a couple paths a week in order to do other things.

LOL, he’s complaining about 30 gold. Spend 2 casual playing sessions running dungeons and you got your gold back.

phys.7689:

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

No man, I’m against it because it will invalidate all the effort I have put into getting ascended gear for all my weight classes. I also don’t want the rest of the players who have put in that effort to feel burned either. Phys, you are not taking into account the silent/vocal backlash Anet would get for making silk changes from people who have already finished or are most of the way through the ascended grind.

edit:

Aberrant.6749:

Seems more like you’ve already made up your mind about what you want and won’t listen to anyone else and just toss aside what they have to say by trying to attack their character instead of the argument itself.

well said.

Add in check points through out the puzzle you need to channel with f for a half a second for a hard mode you activate with the earlier mentioned npc. Mesmers can keep their ports with the token.

Keep chest the same for mesmer ports without the token.

eithinan.9841:

If you could make insignias with elonian squares it would be a step towards fixing the leather problem significantly and take pressure off the silk market.

phys.7689:

i think allowing you to make insignias with leather or metals, would be a big balancer, it would also unify the time requirement a lot more.

Wanze.8410:

Thats a good suggestion. I also think the best way to fix the imbalance between crafting costs of asc cloth/leather/metal is to take off some demand for damask and put it on leather.
Personally i would prefer to use leather to pad out heavy armor, instead of damask.

But both of our suggestions recquire either all armor professions to be able to refine leather or adding it to heavy armorsmith. That change doesnt seem as simple as it looks because it will affect way more crafting recipes down the line.

Im gonna pat my self on the back for a good idea that literally brought the 2 people on opposite ends of this thread discussion into agreement. Thanks guys, this actually made my day. And I agree of course that its easier said than done.

phys.7689:

Kal Spiro.9745:

I agree. Silk should not be so misrepresented. They should boost the requirements of everything to match silk.

this wouldnt really solve the imbalance completely, because mithril is farmable, and leather is still used less in ascended recipes.
it would have an effect.

But if your goal is to have balance, the question becomes which is better balanced in terms of how much grinding it should take to get best in slot.`

I dont think it should take 4-5 hours a day for 36 days to get best in slot for armor alone

If you could make insignias with elonian squares it would be a step towards fixing the leather problem significantly and take pressure off the silk market.

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

This is definitely a point for Wanze.

It also shows his comprehensive knowledge about the different facets of the economy and currencies. This whole discussion on ascended and I never even thought about the laurels associated with it.

Correct me if I’m wrong but with this new daily system it would take 3-4 weeks to gather those additional laurels for weapons. Since you also need the laurels for the armor recipes that is additional time to what other classes would need for full ascended.

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

You say you play a warrior. Is it your main-character? I’ll assume it is, since you aligned yourself personally with that class (“I, as a warrior,…”).

So tell me: How is the status quo not a handicap for everyone with a light-armor profession as his/her main-character?

You seem to have checked if heavy exotic is more expensive, so I guess you ran into a similar situation of being unhappy in that regard.

Its not a handicap for the player with a light armor main because when he started the game, he had the same choices as me.

His ascended gear might be more expensive than mine, my exotic gear might be more expensive than his. I might have to craft 11 asc weapons for a full set, he might only have to craft 5 weapons. The sigils and runes for his metabuild in wvw might cost 4 times more than mine.

There are economic pros and cons for every class but it doesnt put individual players at a disadvantage because they are all available for everybody.

I think its unfair that staff ele’s only need to make 1 weapon while my other classes need to make more, 3-4 in some cases. This is unbalanced and unfair. I think for a staff ele to work they need to slot 2 of the same weapon…..

#sarcasm

Jim Hunter.6821:

Yup but when the change goes through and ranged combat becomes the new meta everyone can stack on the ground target pulsing skills and pew pew each other without moving. As long as you have the bigger group you will win!

NO!!!!!! I remember before there were target limits on aoe and boons in WvW… They fixed that for a reason…

If WvW combat reverts back to this I am done.

Somehow I manage to survive in full dps gear and I’m pretty bad. If you are not in zerker for PvE it is a L2P issue.

1 click = 1 action. key binding 1 action to 1 mouse button is fine.

I would also assume that since some mice have buttons in different groupings you could essentially make a “physical macro” by aligning sequential skills in a rotation to buttons that work for that as long as the 1 click rule is there.

for example: mouse X has 3 different thumb buttons on the side and a thief bound 5,f1,1 he would essentially have the d/d opening salvo from behind ready at all times and he would “just faceroll these buttons,” but its still 1 click 1 action just in a more convenient set up.

phys.7689:

silk already reached the 2 silver price mark before those recipes were released,
they hit that because they released the 2-3 silk scrap change and ascended armors were already out. it is the continued additions to the demand for damask. Again just like the bum with elonian leathers for spinal blade backpieces.

the problem with your perspective, is it is looking only at the value of one material, and not at the world that they had to create to give it that value.
dumb statement is dumb when I am discussing both other t7 mats and components that make them.

hypothetical……[SNIP]
I don’t do hypothetical
[SNIP]
whining about how refinement works