Guild Wars 2

Smiley.5376:

This is a great idea. But at the end i think it would still promote a burst meta. In the sense that well-timed team-bursts can take down anyone in a matter of seconds.

That’s why i think along with this kind of huge change you should also normalize the amulets. I’m talking about everyone wearing celestial amulets.

It would pretty much shift the meta from bunker/burst/condi to interrupter/support/DPS/CC/… and allow for a whole new “level” of playing and of coarse introduce build diversity !

That’s the goal, but I doubt that a burst dps meta would come about after.
The change to crit dmg, it not scaling with power, is a big hit to burst potential which means you won’t be able to spike people down as easily.
(a good thing imo, burst is a big perc, being able to take off large chuncks of a lifebar quickly is a massive perc in a team’ish game, burst specs shouldn’t also be great at solo’ing)

Normalizing amulets, it could work well, I’m honestly not sure.

Blackjack.2083:

If I had to pick the single biggest error that Anet made regarding PvP, in any form, it would definitely be conditions.

So many people hate GW2’s condi setup.
Yeah, they definitely should have been debuff based, near entirely, that would have made the game play so much better, teamwork might actually exist (if they made blind and weakness better)

Lordrosicky.5813:

If you have such a fabulously busy life and still care about your gw2 rating then wow.

Leaderboard rankings, they exist so someone can see how good they are compared to others.
So because that, anyone who takes the time to go legitimate look at their ranking, they show at least a drop of care about ranks.
And so, as you say, anyone who has a life yet shows care about rankings… they don’t have a grip on reality…

So your saying the vast majority of a playerbase can’t take a serious look at their game’s leaderboards or make suggestions that will only improve quality in every way… (since their not demented).
Nice.

Lordrosicky.5813:

And man get a grip. If you dont have time to play your rank will drop. Get over it. Why should you keep your position blocking the way for those who ACTUALLY play the game.

You may feel fine since you do have such a casual life that you can spend time every day playing a game, but that is far from the average person.
People who can are hardcore PvP’ers.
GW2 has like a no hardcore PvP’ers.

That’s a terribly made concept if I’ve ever heard of one.
Leaderboards, at least good ones, are based on skill, not whether you have such a lack of commitments that you can spend each day playing a game… a game that next to no one takes seriously.

I updated my first post to hopefully help clarify.
I started with the goal and moved down, that might make the steps of my reasoning a bit more clearer.

Cynz.9437:

if anything this game needs DR on CCs….badly

A whole nother issue, but ehh.
The issue with CC’s are when they end with rediculous durationa, there are 2? ways to solve that.

1
Cut down the duration of full CC’s (stun/knockdown) to 1/2->1s at most. That’d stop CC from being more than a 1~ ability setup or interrupt. None-full lockdowns (daze) can be 2~ secs at most, since you can still dodge during them.

2
DR. It’s sloppy and obnoxious, but can be slapped into a patch within a few days.

I direly prefer the first option.
The second, I don’t think CC is in such a bad situation that such a drastic measure is necessary (but that’s just me).
I think immobilize needs more attention than stability based CCs.

I’ve said it again and again.
The game is built around extremes.
It is always and forever burst verse condi verse bunker.

If it leans towards burst, allot of casuals get frustrated.
If the meta leans towards condi, everyone suffers.
If it leans towards bunker, everyone leaves.

It is a ‘lose’ – ‘lose worse’ – ‘lose them all’ scenario and Anet does not really even seem to notice…
Kinda have to fix the forced structure around extremes before the game will ever have a chance of having a respectable meta, one that isn’t kicked around like a stray dog after patches, one that people can actually talk about and be happy…

Decay should just be based on matches/7~ days.
If you don’t hit a quota (off the top of my head, 20~ matches) you start decaying for each mach under that quota.

The major issue in the old system only was that people would play 1~ match occasionally to counter decay… they’re sitting on top of the leaderboard as a 10-1.

You beat that issue, but completely reversed the problem…
With decay starting after a few hours and progressively building, that means the leaderboards would lean more towards ‘how consistently you play’ instead of the original intention of ‘how good you are’.

God forbid you can’t log on for a weekend since you have an actual life… well, with this sort of deal you lose a few dozen (if not hundred) ranks… that’s silly.
You didn’t get worse than those people, you weren’t playing the game way too little… you just don’t live in your mothers basement so have everything handed to you on a silver platter.

Fight the issue, not some random one that doesn’t exist. Force so much gameplay each reasonable time period (a week or two is good) for people to maintain leaderboard statuses…
That is practical.
Anyone who wants to take the game seriously can manage that.
They can’t manage logging in each day or seeing their rank (their online show of skill) get artificially beaten up.
That is frustrating.

Don’t do something crazy that vears rank away from how well the person plays.
(unless you’re fine with leaderboards remaining the joke they have always been)

@Silferas.3841

Here, lets start a bit simpler.
I’ll get back to that blarb in a sec.
(it seems really sensible)

What is the point that you think I was making?

kito.1827:

Collaborative Development Topic: Game-Modes

you are welcome

Well, it’s locked.
But it was a comical thread anyways.

They seem dumbstruck on where to go with new game modes.
Everything they said was either…

‘we tried that, it did not work for… [reasons]’
or
‘we can internally test some super vague concept in the game’
(along with a bunch of corporate milk and honey)

That’s like as bad as ‘on the horizon’ speak.
The thread got nothing no-where, unless they were being serious with the ‘more MOBA’ idea. Then well, I hope you devs had fun dev’ing GW2.
No matter what they did they couldn’t MOBA a tenth as well as LoL or DOTA or SMITE so at best GW2 PvP becomes a super pale immitation…
Before it loses all the rest of it’s PvP’ers…
Since the devs spent, probly, the better part of a year making a concept work that others have perfected...

Kinda silly.

There are so many issues with conditions…
So many other things I’d like to see happen so condi’s fall more towards medium (at best!!) dmg but mainly debuffs…

Anyways, since Anet has shown no will to do that…
This is a lil nifty, it’d be a nudge towards helping out ‘coping with crap condis’

Whether or not its worth doing really depends on how Anet has their cleansing coded, it could be obscenely easy, could be a pain in the kitten .

Seems like these guys don’t have some of the sharpest coders, so they probly didn’t set it up very mutably…. so it’s probably a pain in the kitten and not much worth doing.

@Chicago Jack.5647
You seem to be dead set on nitpicking for conflict.
Yes there are cons in GW2 8v8s that, for most people, largely outweigh the pros… but that doesn’t mean those pros don’t exist.

And in my opinion, failure is the best learning experience. People will fail a lot less often when they are being carried.

Different ways to learn.
More ways the more people your game appeals to.
Dueling, 5v5s, and 8v8s give different playstyles.
Differing playstyles makes a different gamemode.
Pro.

They can’t -learn- the fundamentals because of so many crutches they have and the amount of chaos that ensues….

Read my last paragraph last post.
Yes the chaos slaughters allot of things 8v8s could have given GW2.
CON

The crutches… their a staple of MMOs, their called teammates. MMOs are social games.
Look at any trinity MMO, saying ‘having tons of crutches stops you from learning’ is like saying ‘you cant get good at an MMO until you play without healers and tanks’.
Makes no sense.
Teammates make a game more social.
Teammates don’t tend to largely stop you from learning your part.
Chaos and complexity will (and do in GW2)… but teammates… ehh.
Pro.

Don’t get me wrong, people won’t learn how to play TPvP after playing 8v8s (cap/uncap BOs, not zerg, exc.) but that’s fine. A detriment, but that’s what comes with different play-modes.

@Chicago Jack.5647
I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. Most of the time, a player is ether getting carried in an 8v8…

An option to be carried is (imo) a good thing when you are learning the basics of a game.
People learn differently and want to play different gamestyles.

…So most of the time it just becomes a spam-autoattack fest on the nearest downed opponent or blowing the cooldowns of all skills on said downed opponent….

Ok, sounds like an issue with the chaos of it all, but short of that, live and learn?

…It is far more beneficial to strip away all the noise and focus on what a character can do/bring in a fight….

You aren’t maximizing builds, you’re learning fundamentals. 8v8s are never the ideal place to work the kinks out of builds and get a good hand for the finesse of it all , but I never really said that it was, did I?

Less noise is good.
Chaos is the main draw back of 8v8 and what takes any perc GW2 could have gotten from them and turned it on its head (most other games manage larger fights much better).
That’s not entirely an issue with these conquest 8v8s, but also with overloaded devs or bad company structure, exc. not getting around to fixing the mess.

Justin ODell.9517:

Actually, half our hot joins are setup to be 5v5, but due to a bug discovered today the 8v8 matches are being preferred incorrectly.

We’re talking about this internally, and we may be able to get this changed as soon as the 26th.

If only passion could be straight up turned into code, then this game would be updated twice daily and be esports yesterday.
If only…

Phantom Master.9582:

I’m grateful for your rage-less and rational answer.

NPs

Locuz.2651:

What does that even mean “gave no support”? Youre incredibly vague. Do you mean lack of development (new modes etc)?

Locuz.2651:

Due to the lack of a holy trinity in this game larger scale fights become a clusterkitten, unless you run with an organized group (but this is never the case in hotjoins).

Locuz.2651:

While this klusterkitten might seem enjoyable for some guys that see spvp in the same light as crabtoss (a minigame/achievement farming area). For pvpplayers who actually like to pvp this is literally a nightmare.

Sure
GW2 hasn’t tried to make 8v8s work, like at all, and it needed allot of work to actually make them worth playing.

Locuz.2651:

Dont get me wrong im not saying it is the only reason why GW2 pvp failed to deliver so far. Im just saying it might be an idea to change the standard hotjoin format in to 5v5. So that people who join pvp for the first time get thrown in to 5v5 first.

That’s the easiest fix.

TooBz.3065:

garethh.3518:

TooBz.3065:

There is never a justification for uttering an obscenity to a team mate or opposing player.

There’s all the justification anyone needs for anything.
Because they want to.

Yes, and I would be justified in reporting them for verbal abuse.

hahahahahahaha.
That’s hilarious.
I love how people just toss out reason as long as it leads them to the end they want.

Anyways, have a good day!

Phantom Master.9582:

What backs up what you say as a fact?

Sigh…
Nothing.
The point, if you actually are interested in knowing instead of fighting, was that the guy was so set on the idea that ‘hotjoin is bad’ that he didn’t seem to care to listen to anything that wasn’t also bashing it.

A reminder that opinions are just opinions seemed like it could help bring him out of it.

Phantom Master.9582:

The 8v8 Hotjoin is the reason my guild members don’t even touch guild wars 2 PvP with a 10 foot pole.

And there you go too…

The man asked if there are merits to 8v8, I explained them.
So because I explained them I am suddenly a hotjoin enthusiast??!?
:P

??!?!
Hotjoin was a massive failure.
8v8 couldn’t work without allot of support from Anet.
Anet gave no support.
The mode failed.

There were reasons to choose 8v8 for SPvP.
Having a few valid reasons doesn’t mean it will work.
Explaining those reasons doesn’t mean I think hotjoin worked.

Locuz.2651:

garethh.3518:

But people do… because they find it fun….

You mightve missed it but pvp in this game flopped a bit. Especially if you compare the numbers of people playing it to the total population.

Sigh…
So many extremes.

Anyways, lets take a step back…
You wanted to know the merits of 8v8.
I explained them.

It’s not like 8v8 can’t work in GW2, just the devs aren’t willing to take a single step to make it work. Overall it’s a fine concept, actually a good one, many casuals love to just constantly fight people and larger group v group engagements tend to be more enjoyable than not.
BUT the devs never gave the game any help in fitting into an 8v8 mode…
That slaughtered the game.

Locuz.2651:

Thats the entire point. You can do “well” in 8v8 by just using autoattack. No need to play your class well in zergy playmodes. So its probably better to practice your pvpgame by fighting random PvE mobs over fighting in zergs.

Sure you can win an 8v8 by just auto-attacking, but you are probably being a relative burdon (unless your playing a super meta spec, in which case, welcome to the world of MMOs)

But you can win, there’s no need to do more than auto attack to win a few, but there is also no need to play the game…
But people do… because they find it fun…

Yeah you are probably better off doing other things to practice if you want to play conquest competitively…
ALLOT of people don’t.
They just want to play what’s fun.
(it is a game)

Locuz.2651:

much all of them quit since their first impression off GW2 pvp was “a clusterkitten”.

That’s GW2’s issue, entirely irrelevant from 8v8s.
Many games manage full on 8v8s with some semblance of order, you can for the most part see what’s happening. In GW2, 3v3s are hell to watch.

Everyone has an opinion, they are called opinions because they aren’t facts.

TooBz.3065:

There is never a justification for uttering an obscenity to a team mate or opposing player.

There’s all the justification anyone needs for anything.
Because they want to.

It’s a zergy playmode.
Many people like just hacking and slashing through people.
8v8 gives much more constant conflict.

Yes it is a different playstyle.
Worse is an opinion.

Uhm, being with more teammates is better when learning a class than with less.
You learn a different playstyle, sure, but you also learn your class more easily.
In small fights the focus is entirely on you, in larger there is much more leeway to miss a skill or even get downed… because you have 3~ allies nearby.

If people get kitten ed because they go into a fight that and ignore more enemies on the way…
L2P??

DuoMaxwell.8019:

just seems like every game there’s some kitten who is calling someone out.

welcome to the world of online gameplay?
Go QQ at genetics if you want some outlet.

It’s like a small dog barking behind a fence, as long as there is something between him and you, he’ll go bad chit insane, but if you go inside the fence most of their personalities will take a 180.
People aren’t near as evolved as they like to think they are.

MonMalthias.4763:

I will say this: I agree with your assessment that the game is already busy enough with particle effects but your reply kind of says to me that you missed the “after using a toolbelt skill” trigger.

That being said, one can also rework Engineer traits to focus around Fields and Finishers,

And?
If you want to counterplay it?

It seems like you’re trying to make the skill more engaging, I like the effort.
But just know that those added proc ideas are, individually, fine ideas they add a bit to gameplay and more is more, but in GW2… they are hurting the game something terrible. It’s piling complexity and a little depth onto a system drowning in complexity (with little to no depth).

Anyways.
What I’m saying won’t fix the game in a day but is pretty necessary for GW2 to have PvP’ers in a year.

mini.6018:

Maul.3284:

[Dry Ice] – Causes chill for 5 seconds on crit (10sec ICD).

hahah .I always like to see reasonable sugestions.

I laughed too.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Engineer-responses-to-the-Dec-10-changes/first#post3183123

For the most part relates.
Stay away from the idea of ‘new effects to watch out for from traits’ and instead use traits to just put more focus on existing effects/skills/exc.
This game is clusterkittened with things to look out for already, improve gameplay by cutting back, not supporting this trash.

Dirame.8521:

If the use a certain skill procs the burning then people will learn to look out for those particular skills not necessarily the buff bar.

It’s a trait, there is no guarantee the person took it so has that effect after the skill.. well I mean, short of staring at their buff bar.

And even if every engi took it so you knew the guy had it, it adds ANOTHER thing to watch out for on a class with 16+ skills, in a game with terrible animations and horrendous particle effects.

In ever way that is just compounding issues.
If the game wasn’t clusterfuzed with shoddy ‘solutions’ like this… this would be fine, the concept is fine, a burning proc after a certain action is a workable addition to gameplay… but that is so far from GW2 it’s not even funny.

MonMalthias.4763:

If Incendiary Powder were instead nerfed to:

• “For the next 2 seconds after activating a Toolbelt skill, your next critical hit has a 100% chance to cause Burning for 4 seconds (Cooldown 15 seconds)

Uhm.

Valentin.2073:

this is the reason why pvp is dying little by little.

So…
You think the game is dying… because some players are kittens…
Man, League of Legends must be a ghost town.. oh wait.

Players being nice is nice and is it’s own end; it barely, if at all, relates to a game’s success.

Barradin.3164:

‘’They are very bad and incapable’’ isn’t exactly constructive.

What?
And you seriously think this thread, no, the entire forums, are more than ‘PR by Anet’?
lolol

Anyways, if you want to take this seriously, the first step to fixing any problem is realizing what the problem is…
We could, and there have been, long well dicussed threads detailing major issues, but they mean nothing if the issue doesn’t know how to listen to the forums.
They mean nothing if the issue is Anet.
The issue is Anet.

Barradin.3164:

You’re right, except for all the condi atm the classes ARE very well balanced and the combat IS very engaging.

Next to every competitive player didn’t leave just because of conquest.
You may think that the combat is engaging, but just know, you’re not in the majority by any stretch of the imagination.

Barradin.3164:

I think it was a push toward MOBA that crippled the game at launch, and wholeheartedly want to see Gw2 return to the philosophies that once made the franchise so strong.

It’s the company, they are very bad.
They are incapable of tweaking a game to be more enjoyable.
They can only balance.

That will sink any game short of one lucky enough to be all but balanced, out of the block.

GW2 is already past launch and leaps and bounds from anything like a MOBA.

It would take them a year~ to get the game to be more MOBA-like… and no matter how well they do it, MOBAs would have done it better.

By then everyone would have left to some other game.

Hype.8032:

AI’ll still melt face with d/p but where the hell is the build diversity?

I couldn’t care less, if gameplay was going in the right direction.
Meaning Anet could toss all specs but a handful, I mean, make every other spec non-existant, and then work on getting those few specs to a place of dynamic, engaging gameplay that can fit multiple map styles…
And I would be happy.

So many specs, so many top tier specs are utter trash to play and so many things in this game kitten on new map ideas; yet Anet seems soo focused on balancing everything out that they can’t even start to fix it.
To fix the only issue that matters…
Gameplay.

MMOs have been half (if that!!) as balanced as GW2 and done fine… because among their shenanigans they had solid gameplay and a team based focus. GW2 is drowning in top tier cheese, bad animations, bad maps and a crappy, crappy meta setup (burst vs condi vs bunker, always and forever) It means Anet has to spoon feed the game, to get the meta to even mildly shift… to some other set of extremes, and if the meta even starts to lean towards condi or bunker… everyone loses.

Javonovich.5280:

PLEASE, ANET—I and other Mesmers BEG you to do something with these two skills. At the very least, share your thoughts with us on this, because I think most Mesmer players see these as the two biggest problems with Mesmers.

There are hundreds of dead skills in this game and that is just the tip of the iceburg of GW2’s issues.
If you ever want to complain about misc weapons, go look at ele offhands, I mean the one no one uses.
Ever.

If it mattered (or if you think this does), focus on improving what already exists. When that is in a great state, work on expanding it to other setups.
There is so much cheese/shenanigans and just straight up badly designed stuff in this game that diversity is the least of it’s issues.

Silentshoes.1805:

People haven’t “quit”…there is no subscription to cancel. They are just sitting out.

Running has no subscription, yet I haven’t thought of doing cross-country in the past 7? years.

It’s not a massive conflict, the vast majority of people who aren’t GW2’ing don’t sit around waiting on the words of the devs, they aren’t constantly checking for patch notes and updates and praying for a certain small fix or change (all Anet seems capable of) so they can get a part of their life back…
People got frustrated, and left.
They do (and probably enjoy) other things now.
GW2 is but a memory to them.

The worst part is, new MMOs are right around the corner and they will sweep up the vast majority of the remaining TPvP’ers, and well, that’d be the end of that.
(I mean short of a miracle, on the level of ’new company or devs ’ )

PsyOnic.3108:

I’m actually excited to see how the devs want to make this game skillful.

They have been trying.
The game has only gotten less skillful.
That doesn’t seem to be soon-to-change as Anet attempts to solve more problems with passive traits.

lilz shorty.1879:

A moba kind of style would work well with gw2 lol. Extremely well imo

It wouldn’t.
MOBA maps work because there is a constant risk, reward and focus on leveling.
GW2 literally cannot have a situation like that.

At best it can try to simulate the creep wave, but without xp/gold keeping people in lanes…
Without that legitimate lane’ing doesn’t exist, the map will just be chaos… bunkers and mini zergs.
Unless they pull out a miracle, it seems like it could be an interesting changeup but not lastingly much better than conquest (and conquest is bad).

Dardamaniac.1295:

Some conditions have secondary effects..Poison, weakness, vuln…Thats what cond should do….A 800 tick burning is crazy.Conditions should be feared not for the dmg but for the debuffs they bring..Thats pressure….A 600-800 ticking burning combined with some stacks of bleed is totally bursting you down

I completely agree.
But a condi-effect overhaul is even less likely than tweaks to two stats so I kinda veared away from it.

Rieselle.5079:

Sure, to make builds interesting we need trade offs, but stat tradeoffs are boring – they make the game hard to balance without making it much deeper or more fun.

This is why the op wants to reduce the extremes of stats to promote more balanced builds. But that’s just half baked band aid solution. A better game wouldnt have stats in the first place. Instead we would have much more interesting traits and skills that can totally change the way the game is played.

Whilst i don’t agree with gw1 having a billion skills, mostly identical and redundant, i do think a lot can be learned from Magic and other card games, in that they have very interesting cards with unique mechanics that interact with each other. (and note that Magic doesn’t have stats either).

If a game had devs that were extremely cognitive.
I’d love that.

But stats are an easy way to cause the appearance of dynamic gameplay.
You have to fight different specs differently or even just see fights play out differently because they have innate strengths/weaknesses based of off easy to balance stats.

The main (and truly only) percs to it are that it is has a decent sized fallowing, it is extremely casual? friendly (people love winning even if it isn’t truly their fault), it’s easy to setup, and commonly known to create at very least, decent gameplay.

Anyways, help for GW2 is help for GW2, tossing stats isn’t even remotaly possible so, as nice as it is in theory, is tragically irrelevant.
What I posted is decently possible and would improve gameplay.
A better game is a better game.

NevirSayDie.6235:

garethh.3518:

It’d make a situation where condi specs couldn’t throw everything into bunkering after they get their 700-1k condi dmg, they would need to take a more offensive amulet to really get all the dmg they can get.

There currently aren’t any meta builds that use settler’s amulet except maybe spirit ranger. Necro will always use either rabid or carrion, and condition engineers will almost always use rabid. Necro generally has zero points in defensive traitlines and engineers are usually about half and half.

Yeah, that should be clarified.
Thanks for the reminder
In those cases, since condi dmg would be globally cut back, the physical dmg from crit or power would try to fill the gap. To keep up with the same sort of dps they are doing now it might be a good idea to push them towards rampager.

Anyways, all in all, this wouldn’t end up killing those builds or even largely switch up whether or not they are viable, but it would largely change how you can fight them and most likely change how dynamic the spec is to play (since now every weapon ability is worth using)
(that’s why I thought this was a great idea worthy of a thread)

Since condi’s won’t be the main and only source of dmg, toughness would give notable mitigation, cleansing wouldn’t be downright necessary to have stacked to have a chance, exc. exc.

a t s e.9614:

I would like condi and bunkers to befixed. Burst dmg never was a problem . And as other people said , self healing ability should be greatly reduced to fix bunker.

One of the major things I was geting at was that if crit dmg didn’t scale much with power (mainly be based off of base ability dmg), then condi specs could use rabid or carrion and get viable amounts of bonus physical dmg (nothing crazy, but notable instead of the negligible 569 power or crit gives right now), which would let condi dmg be widely nerfed. It’d make a situation where condi specs couldn’t throw everything into bunkering after they get their 700-1k condi dmg, it’d lower the insane need for everyone to stack cleansing, it’d cause condi specs to need to take a more offensive amulet to really get all the dmg they can get.

(if that isn’t all just repeating myself to you)

Dardamaniac.1295:

Condi should be pressure dmg and Power should be burst-more fast damage…

Period

Clarify?
A difference between the two is cool, a difference is good. Cleansing assures that a difference is there and will be to stay.
But zoning out entire playstyles…
ehh.

It’s not like you can choose to focus on condi dmg or power in the middle of a match so any and all difference in roles doesn’t make depth, if you could, then what you’re saying would make great gameplay, but that’s not really the case.

That just means, (if it’s even your point) if pressure is limited to condi dmg and burst is all power can do, the game will stay with the same stale meta filled with MANY mindnuming specs.

a t s e.9614:

Dude I don’t agree 100% with you

care to talk it out?

Jackums.3496:

garethh.3518:

If you just nerf conditions, we’ll end in another power/burst meta.

No. You’re assuming that by toning them down we’ll be nerfing them into the ground. They can be made more reasonable without being completely invalidated.

I wrote that badly didn’t I?
What I should have said is…. either way, with condi’s nerfed or not, you’re going to end with many mindless condi-spam bunkers (just a lil less OP, balance and balance alone will leave anyone that wants to play a condi spec forced to go condi/bunk) and a notable number of mindnuming physical dmg builds.

Kinda trying to address that..

Yeah, physical dmg doesn’t seem like much of an issue, on the surface, but from what I’ve seen it was the kickstarter to get all these massively inflated condi dmg numbers rolling (right now going ‘part physical’ on a condi build isn’t remotely viable short of building glass/might-stack on kitten like engi. That means you have to go all condi dmg or none, so that 798~ condi dmg has to give a spec all the +dmg it needs to be viable… so condi specs are forced into pure condi-bunker situations since they have extra stats and no offense to gain from them, that is one of the major issues this whole thing was getting at)

NevirSayDie.6235:

garethh.3518:

NevirSayDie.6235:

My opinion is that build diversity should stay. The extremes were a bit much at launch, but have been toned down a lot since then.

Ideally this wouldn’t lessen diversity at all.
Burst builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t be every spec that wants to deal viable physical dmg.
Condi builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t be, next to always, extremely bunkery.
Bunker builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t need meta specs or 3+ people on them to die in a reasonable time.

The idea is only to open up the meta and stop massive spasms.

I meant build diversity as in the extent to which builds are different. Of course there will always be different builds. Basically the suggestion is that damage and bunker builds get pushed toward each other, so that burst is less bursty and tank is less tanky. I agree that can sometimes be necessary (as at launch) but I think that we’re past that and that the diversity can stay.

Here, i’ll just throw out topics-> pro’s verse cons.

Bunkers
No one likes beating up on a brick wall, that happens sometimes, especially if you’re not using meta dps. It’s not a major issue, but could be improved, this would improve that.

ronpierce.2760:

That’s not to say further balancing may be needed, but it’d be a real step in the right direction if you ever want true balance and less gimmicks.

Off the top of my head, not a big fan, but when I’ve actually gotten some sleep and can think better I’ll get back to you on that.
:)

aaron.7850:

conditions should never have been worked as a primary source of damage, it lets these classes have tanky stats while doing insane damage. conditions should always have been a secondary source of damage.

A large reason why I posted this.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Easy-solution-to-fix-the-meta/

Anet seems like they could, possibly, maybe listen to good advice right now, so I decided to throw it out there and see where it falls.

The main result would be a large global nerf to condition dmg.
The first step is to adjust how physical dmg scales so that power alone or crit dmg alone give viable (not great) but viable amounts of dmg, making condi specs that want to deal great dmg get that dmg through the combination of physical and condition dmg (from carrion/rabid/rampager amulets) instead of just lol-stacking defense since right now the miscelaneous power/crit on rabid/carrion give negligble physical dmg.

It’d clean up this game’s meta extroadinarily and make the game’s condi dmg more match its cleansing (a nice addition to a spec, but not a downright necessity to stack as much as possible)

ahuba.6430:

Thedenofsin.7340:

ronpierce.2760:

Remove useless statistics and add “damage done” “healing done” “killing blows” “stomps” that’d keep me going! Show all player’s statistics so we can compare. Its a competitive game, these things help drive people to be better. :P

Those are not the statistics that matter in this game, and that’s the problem. It’s team-based game, not Call of Duty.

damage done wouldnt be that good either, because it would drive people away from bunker specs

People who get off on game-chart numbers also typically like to play dps, so the problem tends to work itself out.
People played tanks in like every MMOs even though they had the kitteniest numbers.

A dmg done/taken/healing chart is like a necessity in MMOs.

Shinoobi.1259:

I know it’s not a stun or even close, but I really wish they’d allow stun breakers to cure it.

It’s extremely close.
Much closer than a condition ever should be, at least with how Anet setup cleansing.

Sol.4310:

Our counter’s got nerft and we got given even more passive/tanky build with just as much damage.

Boy oh boy, sounds like a ranger patch through and through.
When we’re not ignored were given passive/bunker buffs.
(main’ed a trap ranger for the first few months of this game)

Jackums.3496:

They shouldn’t even think about touching power damage until they fix the state of conditions.

If you read the post, I’m saying ‘the best way to fix condis is to fix power alongside it’.
If you just nerf conditions, we’ll end in another power/burst meta.

The only way to avoid that is to lower the scaling from crit, then power specs wouldn’t be forced to go burst (if not they are subpar), then condi dmg can be globally nerfed (pretty hard) since the dmg won’t need to be as high to stay relevant exc. exc.

It’s a wee bit roundabout but hits on the issue you seem to have with the game, and many, many more.

NevirSayDie.6235:

My opinion is that build diversity should stay. The extremes were a bit much at launch, but have been toned down a lot since then.

Ideally this wouldn’t lessen diversity at all.
Burst builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t be every spec that wants to deal viable physical dmg.
Condi builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t be, next to always, extremely bunkery.
Bunker builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t need meta specs or 3+ people on them to die in a reasonable time.

The idea is only to open up the meta and stop massive spasms. It’s not what you seem to be leading on to, it’s not aiming for normalizing. From how I see it, bunkers would still deal that much less dmg than burst. The most notable change, after everything mellows out, would ideally be that physical dmg and condi specs won’t be forced into the static roles that rule this game’s meta, that and bunker self healing will be lessened.

All I can see happening from this is a much wider meta that actually can live and breath a bit since all those dozens of middle of the line builds are playable, meaning there are dozens of new ways to play out team comps.
But I am really tired, so could be missing things.
It could just lead to more normalized builds where people do end up abandoning all of pure bunk/burst for more mixed, exc.
Lol.

@Silferas

Sigh…
Are you willing to listen if I explained how we could both be right?
Or do you want to just let it be? or take more time to calm down?

This can’t go anywhere if you’re not willing to listen or furious over some point you want to think I said.

NevirSayDie.6235:

I just don’t see the connection between that and weekly esports threads that supposedly shame the devs into trying harder.

People buy a game based off of expectation.
GW1 was a major PvP based success and was close to esports quality.
Next to every article/blog/post by devs about PvP before release and during beta talked about GW2 and high hopes for esports if not ‘it is our main focus’.

Surprise, surprise; many, many, many people bought GW2 because they thought it would be esports quality.
The game is the furthest thing from it.

IMO posts chastising the devs seems to be brought up pretty regularly because Anet hasn’t tossed out the idea that GW2 can be an esport… it’s a claim so far fetched to some that it actually insults them, especially when kitten like ‘the game is building towards it’ is said, GW2 being a game that those posters clearly see is in not even in a place to bandy around the word… even with an ‘on the horizon’ tagged on…

I’m not saying I know all, but there’s a glaring issue in GW2 that I think needs to be discussed.

OVERVIEW
GW2 has always be burst verse bunk verse condi.

The game is balanced around extremes, so has massive meta shifts with minor changes. It leads to more (casual fustrating) burst centric or (generally annoying) condi centric or (god forbid) bunker centric metas… it leads to physical dps classes forced to pay burst and burst allone, it leads to condi classes outputting rediculous pure condition dmg and/or being very survivable… any spec that can’t do that is just subpar or bunker.
Allot of people hate allot about that, so that’s what I’d like to address.

HOW IT STARTED
With power/crit/critdmg scaling so well together, you tend to end up netting much more dmg by going burst than the survivability you lose through a more balanced physical dmg build (with the hard CC in this game, it’s not hard at all to get a working burst combo into a spec).

It means physical dmg classes are innately pigeon-holed into burst.

THE PROBLEMS CREATED
-inflated Condi dmg.
-extremely tanky bunkers, short of fighting with a very meta spec
-extremely spastic meta that revolves around bad extremes (condi and bunk mainly)

Physical dmg being burst or bunk creates an EXTREMELY high baseline to balance dmg around, condi dmg (with one stat) has to deal competitive dmg with only condi’s (since anything but stacked power/crit/critdmg is useless) compared to top tier burst (which is very high dmg that you have to spec very nichely to be able to mitigate), bunkers need to have REALLY high survivability to keep up with the top tier burst and of course also the inflated dmg from condi classes.

That leaves it as a ‘burst or condi or bunk’ deal… balanced around extremes, little if any room for middle ground.
Making a game like that, it makes it very hard to stop the game from tilting harshly to one meta or another causing massive fluctuations with minor changes.

Anyways, discuss.