Guild Wars 2

Nix.3152:

also engis has bad condi clear and stunbreaks. easy to focus down. why noone plays engi on top teams? because it is easy to counter. facerolling warriors is way better. you can play that stupid turret build but it is not viable at high lvl of play. for some reason anet like npc builds and keep buffing them.

Maybe if we reduce Engineers access to unavoidable RNG burn they can get condi clear and better stunbreaks.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Larynx.2453:

Aberrant.6749:

Flumek.9043:

Liewec.2896:

meanwhile warriors are spamming perma aoe burning and causing burning with every auto attack.

suddenly one 4 second burn to a single target on a 10 second cooldown seems trivial.

cough… 7s ….. cough

Even with 30 in power + runes of balth on the eng it’s still in the war’s favor…

Hambow also isn’t known for being a condi build.

which is funny because hambows do nearly equivalent burning damage with a 100% burning uptime when fighting on point. Whenever I die with a hambow around the top damage is always burning, usually over 10k.

Anyways, you need to work around incendiary powder. I very rarely see a player actively take into consideration what the trait implies.

I will admit that balthazar is a joke and incredibly broken. I was the first to say so. Incendiary is hardly broken, however. It’s also one of the better designed passives given its short CD and requirement of the player to keep in mind the timing to avoid proccing it on random bullkitten in teamfights.

Yeah Incendiary Powder requires a lot of skill cause you have to avoid proccing it on random fights, just like Sun Spirit or Dhuumfire, which you’ve never complained about, right OE?

Fact is Incendiary Powder is a horribly designed trait which should be handled the same way Dhuumfire was.

The simple answer: I’m not going to pay money so that some guy can run a skill-less troll 1v1 build and get $500, if the tournament was 2v2 or 3v3, things might be different.

Legendary Reaper

BOOM

What exactly is a soothsayer

ThatShortGuy.4672:

It’s a good idea, but how does Anet give these definitions (in an easy to understand mannor) to new people to the game/pvp?

Well, in my original post I started giving basic definitions of each role, I’m sure they could be clearly defined.

If you give me any commonly seen build, I can probably tell you which category it fits into and why.

Decap engineer is a build which shouldn’t exist, and would unfortunately be classed as a Duelist build, because it aims to assault and win far point 1v1, or waste a lot of the enemy’s time 1v2.

Scyrka.1356:

Even easier roles: Defender, Assaulter, Support.

1) Defender -> Defends Points (No way, how intuitive!)

2) Assaulter -> Caps Points (Still going with that intuitive idea? Sweet!)

3) Support -> Pairs up with Defenders or Assaulters to support them (Oh my God, he’s three for three!)

Your ‘roles’ are completely abstract and don’t really mean anything, thanks. All players play an active role in assaulting, defending, and supporting.

My roles point are specifically meant to show who goes where, and what a build intends to do.

To make outcomes in Solo queue less comp based, I suggest that Arenanet implement a system where people define their role when they queue from a selection of 5 basic types:

1. Bunker: Attempts to stay on the mid point and cap it while supporting team mates. Examples: Bunker Warrior, Bunker Guardian

2. Brawler: A build intended for team fighting. Examples: Hambow, Condi Necro

3. Support: A build which brings teamwide power ups or healing. Example: Cleric Staff Ele, Spirit Ranger

4. Duelist: A build intended to win far point, or defend home node. Examples: Axe/Sword Warrior, Beastmaster Ranger, Minion Necro

5. Roamer: A high mobility burst build intended to finish fights with unpredictable spike. Examples: Thief, Portal Mesmer

Solo Queue matchmaking could be changed so that a team requires a Bunker, Support, and Brawler (the teamfighting core), and then a mix of Duelist, Brawler, and Roamer builds. These roles could all be marked by an icon in the party UI so that teams could just look and understand who intends to go where at the beginning of the fight.

Not only would this create more even matches which aren’t decided based on comp alone, it would allow more people to play the way they want to in each match. For example, you wouldn’t have games with 3 far point pushers or 4 bunkers or 5 roamers. If you queued with a particular role set, you would be able to perform that role in general. This would also make solo queue better practice for those looking to perform seriously in team queue.

The company that made this game doesn’t care about what you, or the majority of the Solo Queue player base says.

Skyhammer stays, because they made it and they think it’s cool. They won’t even give you a mapvote option.

Deathmatch arenas, a real scoreboard, real leaderboards that show class type and MMR, real matchmaking that doesn’t start players with absurdly high MMR

Evan Lesh.3295:

@infantrydiv, we could list individual stats for days, but what kind of features would you like on the scoreboard? Sorting? Comparisons? Histories? Live updates for spectators?

I think one of the biggest things you could do from a spectator perspective is to change Kills to be assigned to the player who did the most damage on the killed player. This is good from a viewer perspective because it allows people to see who is really “on a rampage”.

I think even a featureless scoreboard with stats for each player would be much better than what we have currently.

A simple start would be a chart with damage done, damage taken, healing given, kills, assists, etc where you could sort by which ever category you were most interested in.

Evan Lesh.3295:

We agree the scoreboard needs an overhaul at some point. What kind of functionality would you want to see on the scoreboard? Stat comparison between teams? Between players? What you scored best in?

Please remove the personal point system in the score board. It only fuels ignorance.
Remove it and put something useful like actual stats.
Physical Damage Done
Condition Damage Done
Overall Damage Done
Healing Done
Healing Received
Interrupts
Resurrections
Damage Received
Damage Blocked
Damage Dodged
Damage Evaded
Dodges
Damage Reflected
Deaths
Points Neutralized
Points Capped
Decaps Prevented
…
Just to name a few.
Currently the point system accomplishes nothing but cultivating foolish behavior.

MMR definitely should be tied to classes and they should also show class played on the leaderboards.

Here’s an example of a proper leaderboard:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3#page=1

You can search by class, the type of specific build, and the MMR is visible.

I cannot understand Arenanet’s logic leaving conquest as the only game mode.

What exactly would they have to lose by adding a 3v3 arena?

The only excuse I’ve heard is that “they don’t want to split the community”, and that’s a total kitten, lame argument.

The fact is that there are lots of pvpers playing the game who want a pure deathmatch style mode and that there are lots of people currently PvEing and WvWing who would also PvP more if there was a mode that was about more than standing in a circle and soaking up AoE as effectively as possible.

For one thing, adding different types of modes would instantly increase build diversity, without having to do a single balance change to the game. This adds more variety and gives people the feeling that their class is more complete.

And secondly, almost all games have more than one type of mode. People get bored playing the same kitten thing all day. Especially conquest.

A rated 3v3 arena would instantly be more competitive than Solo queue due to the horrible maps Arenanet lets remain in the rotation.

3v3 arena would also be more fun to watch for new players and people interested in the game who do not necessarily appreciate the rotational skill needed for conquest, but like seeing small scale fights.

The final thing is… adding a 3v3 arena would be really, really easy. In fact, they could probably do it in a week or less if they really tried.

And what would be a downside to adding arenas? Oh no, the arenas turned out to be more popular and fun than conquest and now people play that instead of conquest mode! That’s the only one I can think of.

Prysin, get a clue.

Clerics BM bunker? Talk about a selfish, bad build.

Traps? What would be the reason to take a ranger with no stunbreaks over a necro/engineer which has more repeatable AoE damage and utility?

By the way, neither traps nor BM take more skill than spirits, so hop down off your high horse. In fact, BM ranger is one of the most mechanically easy builds in the game to play, either clerics or settlers.

Traps = lay them down on point, reapply immediately after enemy steps in them. Such skill. Wow.

Please head back to the WvW forums

This sounds good. PvErs could have a niche roll as junglers with the ultra fast mob kills

Rage.9723:

You sure do like to look at things as pessimistically as possible don’t you? The guy I played with sucked and was whiny.

That may be so, but again, personal score has a potential to be hugely misleading.

Rage.9723:

In your opinion and play style. Show me regression analysis if you want to talk in bold letters.

I’ve had plenty of games where I was fighting outnumbered fights while my team ran around in a blob killing people off point.

Guess who had more points?

There might be a correlation between personal score and effectiveness, but, in the end, just because you had triple his personal score means absolutely nothing without extra context.

He could have been fighting 1v3 for ages while you and the rest of your team roflstomped 2 players 4v2. And of course, you would then have more personal score than he did, even though you were misrotating horribly. In fact, the guy fighting 1v3 for an extended length of time and then dying would have been being extremely effective, even though he is awarded zero personal score

Rage.9723:

Because triple personal score of someone else is not an indicator of anything? Strong logic.

No, triple personal score is not an indicator of anything.

Many of the elite skills are extremely gimmicky or easy to use…take necro plague form (3 buttons, wow!) or thieve’s guild… I like your idea a lot

Can you fix the bug where matches start 4v5?

Conquest is a good mode and it is fine, but I would like to see new game modes that do not need to have an emphasis on point control abilities… aka AoE spam

It’s a tax on NA for being less esports

Jae.5138:

they are. you’re just bad.

…

what

Kagamiku.9731:

Who cares? If strength runes are your excuse for why warriors are OP, then you nerf the runes, not the warrior. Pigeonhole warriors even more into being forced to take a certain build. You’re so smart!

As for 2-handers, so? There was no issue back when 2-handers only allowed one sigil slot. The only fair thing to do would be to revert that change, or make it so that 2-handers can’t use two in pvp. Leave warrior traits as they are. They’re not whats making them “OP”. It’s so cruel of them to have two-handed weapons that are actually useful, is it not?

Are you deliberately avoiding confronting the logic behind my posts? Do I need to spell it out in simpler words for you?

Warriors (in particular Hambow) benefited more from the sigil changes than other classes because:

A. They use two twohanded weapons = two extra sigils, compared with 1 for most other classes
B. They have extremely fast weapon swapping meaning that they can might stack extremely easily as well

As for strength runes, they are helping ele out in the meta a lot. But, warrior did not need strength runes so be viable. In fact, warrior was still top tier right before the patch hit.

Combustive Shot has been a problem from the first patch in which Warrior saw the addition of Cleansing Ire. Why? Because Combustive Shot, on a 7 second cooldown, became extremely powerful guaranteed condition removal. All other warrior burst skills are able to be blinded or dodged. For this reason alone, until something is done about Combustive Shot, warriors will be forced to run longbow to compete.

Warriors’ weakness, when the game was released, was supposed to be conditions. Now, equipped with cleansing ire, berserker’s stance, and a massive starting health pool, warriors are juggernauts.

Kagamiku.9731:

Strength runes and extra sigil slots for 2-handers does not relate solely to the warrior. You don’t nerf a class based on something any class can use. You nerf the runes or you nerf the extra sigil slot, this is common sense…

Otherwise, every warrior will need to take strength runes to be even somewhat viable, and it’s dangerously close to that point already.

No, you’re right, strength runes relate to warrior and elementalist, one of which was top tier before the patch, and one which was bottom tier before the patch.

Please also feel free to name any other meta spec using two two-handed weapons. The only one I can think of is hammer/staff guardian, and that’s not played very frequently

^

SgtJanitor.3164:

xantosnightwish.5438:

This sort of thinking can only improve the quality of matches. I love Guild Wars 2 pvp because it allows for this kind of “game planning” and adjustments between each game of a set. I hope to see teams trying to out scheme each other, much like in real sports. Personally, I think the decap engy may be a counter to Apex. Tho I’d love to hear Apex’s thoughts on that :P. If you add a decap engy to KPz’s comp tho, what would you drop?

Decap engi can go either way to be honest. The decap engi simply will not have the damage output to singlehandedly take out Chubbs Z / Day 1v1. There is far too much condi clear, burst heal and impromptu repositions / low cd stun breakers in the build for it to be taken down without mechanical errors on the elementalist’s part or a pretty kitten talented engineer.
The decap engi would thrive in the 1v1, but the point of the APeX comp is not “1v1s”. In the end, a rotation would be called after all personal sustain on that point has been relinquished and, without reliable stability, that engi would, in most cases, be trained down unfortunately.

A decap engi could, however, be an interesting beginning to an approach of several changes that could potentially counter this composition. I implore everyone to queue up and try new things to find what works best for them! As I stated before, there is a counter to everything, you just have to be willing to find it.

Regards,
Heurix – APeX Prime Leader

Err…the point of a decap engi wouldn’t be to kill chubbs, it would be to toss him off point until the engi full capped the point, which would be pretty easy to do…. however, apex could just outfit a warrior capable of killing a decap engi 1v1 on node with lots of stability…

a t s e.9614:

And warrior’s longbow is what keeps them alive in a 1v1 situation. Without longbow warriors would be free kills for any thief/mesmer/engi and even necro with minions.

Thanks for admitting that warrior relies on combustive shot spam to win 1v1s against a variety of classes.

How about, we shave some of longbows power, and add it to other weapon sets for warrior, huh? Maybe this is what balancing is about, yeah? That way warriors are not pidgeonholed into running longbow to be viable.

Rom.4536:

To be frank, it is a reason why us in TCG does not run double hambow. 1, it is cheesy. But 2, it is not OP. It is surely counterable. I read a few comments here about “because that class or spec didnt reach finals obviously it needs buff or what not” or “look at final teams obviously WAR needs nerf”.

I bet they could have pracced with only 1 WAR also and probably hit the finals anyways.

People seem to be so harsh at judging a mere 10days since a huge patch that made a lot of impact on both gameplay such as theorycraft.

I can tell you already that I didnt see anybody using the most “OP” things yet on ToL NA. We The Civilized Gentlemen didnt find our complete perfected line-up with builds yet. We already noticed a lot of other things that we didnt even use in the EU ToL just a few days after.

I’m simply stating, stop being so drastic in judgement and basing all of your ideas off of this ToL in NA. Some talk about buffs and nerfs like thats the answer to your issues. Its fun how people just cant stand maybe not being as superior as you they think they are. Simply train with mates and become better instead of shoving the NERF-towel into the winners face.

The title of this thread is Double Warrior Cheese, not double hambow cheese. You had no problem trashing the EU scene with double warrior for months in Cheese Mode, right? And, if Ele wasn’t able to run celestial/might stacking, I’d suspect Denshee probably would have ran warrior in the ToL.

Until something is done about Warrior longbow in particular, all warrior meta builds will be tied to longbow, because combustive shot is too good.

I think the tournaments really kinda had different moods… ToL EU twitch chat was probably the most positive twitch chat I’ve ever seen… then ToL NA everyone is bored or complaining because bunker wars 2….

It felt like GW2 could go somewhere during ToL EU, during ToL NA i realized we are still in the same hole.

ceol.9175:

infantrydiv.1620:

My argument has never been that elementalist was underpowered… holy kitten… the only thing i was saying is that currently, playing elementalist is at least more complicated than warrior, so it isn’t as bad.

Your argument was that elementalists don’t have the ability to do the things warriors do. They do. It just takes a little bit more coordination.

The problem with elementalist is its really high skill floor (meaning it’s too much work to get proficient) compared to warrior. Meanwhile, hambow warrior is much easier to get into, but its skill ceiling is low, so there isn’t a lot of room to grow. It’s kind of almost balanced out. A little bit. Maybe.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that. D/D ele and Hambow are playing similar roles in the current meta, and what I said was that D/D ele is at least a bit more complicated to learn, so the fact that it is able to might stack while being tanky isn’t as bad as warrior which is literally faceroll

ceol.9175:

infantrydiv.1620:

How about water 3? You don’t know that’s a blast finisher? I guess you never played the class. Not to mention the fact that different attunements on Ele do much different things. Hambow = spam

Also, Elementalist sure as hell does not need a buff. I dunno where you got that idea from.

…what? We’re talking about might stacking. There isn’t a lot of time to fit Water #3 in, especially since the enemy will rarely give you the opportunity to get the base rotation off. You don’t want to switch into a whole separate attunement just for a single blast finisher. Save water attunement for when you need condition cleansing or to back off and give yourself some breathing room. And even then, that point would only help me! Since one more blast finisher means more might stacks, which your argument seems to be that elementalist lacks.

See, these are things you would know if you played the class. Do you see me on here speaking out of my kitten about necro or thief? No? Then don’t come in here spouting nonsense about classes you don’t play.

My argument has never been that elementalist was underpowered… holy kitten… the only thing i was saying is that currently, playing elementalist is at least more complicated than warrior, so it isn’t as bad.

Lopez.7369:

Zero condition builds, unless you count spirit ranger, in the finals.

Yep, and the spirit ranger that Nnight runs is condi-lite with shortbow sword/dagger, more of a defensive support oriented build

ceol.9175:

manveruppd.7601:

snip

If you stay in longbow the entire time, you’re gimping yourself in the fight, and that’s the only way you’re going to keep Combustive Shot up 100% of the time.

The fact that elementalist needs to be buffed doesn’t mean warrior needs to be nerfed.

And I’m not sure what you’re talking about with elementalists not getting the same benefit from strength runes. Rarely will a warrior or an ele be able to keep 25 stacks of might up by themselves in a fight, but they will be able to have some sort of might from their combos and weapon/attunement swapping.

infantrydiv.1620:

Elementalist rotations are obviously more complex…if you can’t grasp the fact that they have 4 attunements on ~10 second cooldowns while warrior has two weapons with 5 second cooldowns and exceedingly simple skills…I don’t know what to say. And of course you are leaving out the fact that warrior healing is completely passive unlike eles which is tied to rotations. You are also leaving out the fact that warrior is naturally far more tanky than elementalist… so, what, again, is your point?

Yeah, their rotations are more complex. They also offer a bit more utility. The basic hambow build doesn’t have any mobility and barely has any sort of conditions. It’s kitten-easy to dodge out of Combustive Shot and Arcing Arrow as well as half the kitten hammer skills. “B-B-But the capture point!!” Yeah? Every class has AoE skills to force people off-point.

Elementalists also has passive healing in the form of Signet of Healing, which combined with 6 in water gives a lot of condition removal and regen as well. They’re also going to be getting a lot more dodges than a hambow warrior with their almost-perma Vigor uptime.

infantrydiv.1620:

Warrior spams combustive shot completely covering the entire point and then uses Arcing Arrow and Earthshaker on the field the size of the moon… that’s some really complicated rotation right there, folks!

It’s the exact same complexity as D/D elementalist: Fire #3, Fire #4, switch to Earth, Earth #4, dodge. Judging by your signature, you’ve never actually played the class, so I can’t blame you for not knowing that. What I can blame you for is getting your butt handed to you by a hambow warrior and coming on the forums to complain and beg for nerfs instead of examining why you were having trouble.

Warrior doesn’t need a nerf. Elementalist needs a buff.

How about water 3? You don’t know that’s a blast finisher? I guess you never played the class. Not to mention the fact that different attunements on Ele do much different things. Hambow = spam

Also, Elementalist sure as hell does not need a buff. I dunno where you got that idea from.

Yeah, conditions so overpowered

Meanwhile check out my thread where everyone is clamoring to defend the fact that might stacking hambow is an intelligent and balanced playstyle. LOL

ceol.9175:

infantrydiv.1620:

Elementalists also have to rotate properly, and dont have complete immunity to damage periodically.

What… are you talking about? Warriors have to do just as much rotation on a hambow build to get might stacks, and Elementalists get Mist Form and Obsidian Flesh which are truly complete immunity and not just immune from direct damage or conditions — not to mention Swirling Winds and Magnetic Wave, which reflect projectiles. Oh, and Fire Shield, which grants Might on hit.

I wasn’t even talking about focus elementalist, which probably takes even more skill than d/d.

Elementalist rotations are obviously more complex…if you can’t grasp the fact that they have 4 attunements on ~10 second cooldowns while warrior has two weapons with 5 second cooldowns and exceedingly simple skills…I don’t know what to say. And of course you are leaving out the fact that warrior healing is completely passive unlike eles which is tied to rotations. You are also leaving out the fact that warrior is naturally far more tanky than elementalist… so, what, again, is your point?

Warrior spams combustive shot completely covering the entire point and then uses Arcing Arrow and Earthshaker on the field the size of the moon… that’s some really complicated rotation right there, folks!

Darek.1836:

people don’t realize just how strong the double warrior is.
Don’t forget that APeX beat 55HP 2-1 in a scrimm (on NA servers), including a game on legacy that was 70-500.

I’m aware, the differences between team power level on NA/EU aren’t as big as the Twitch EU fanboys would have you think.

Double warrior is going to be one of the best options until might stacking gets nerfed, because you can’t really beat:

-3800 power
-3000+ toughness
-800 condi damage
-AoE CC
-AoE burn
-Great condi clear
-Personal stability
-Endure Pain/Berserker’s stance

a t s e.9614:

Eu is bursty, NA is tanky

/thread

Again, misinformation from a t s e.

EU started the double warrior comp with Cheese Mode (the top team in EU for a really long time, that would usually wreck 55 HP monks). EU players have usually stayed away from bursty varieties of thief like D/P. EU warriors also do not run berserker amulet, like Apex warriors do (at least last I saw). NA also plays Engineer which is riskier in team fights.

Phaeton.9582:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

It’s not OP, just very easy to play.

infantrydiv.1620:

vincecontix.1264:

Yes its a viable build for wars but its not really over the top. Other classes can bring just as much to the table and strength runes are available to all classes.

No, strength runes are not ‘available’ to other classes since they don’t have firefields and blast finishers on a 7 second cooldown.

Elementalists have waaaaay more than soldiers axe, which is a better build IMO.

Elementalists also have to rotate properly, and dont have complete immunity to damage periodically.

vincecontix.1264:

Yes its a viable build for wars but its not really over the top. Other classes can bring just as much to the table and strength runes are available to all classes.

No, strength runes are not ‘available’ to other classes since they don’t have firefields and blast finishers on a 7 second cooldown.

So, NA Tournament of Legends: 3 of the top 4 teams are running double warrior.

Why is this? You take the easiest class in the game to play. You introduce strength runes. You slap on a Soldier’s amulet and run around all game with 20 stacks of might dealing 500 perma burn ticks and more damage than almost a GC.

Combustive shot is an embarrassment to this game; the antithesis of a skillshot. Reduce the radius, make it actually have to touch something to clear conditions.

Warriors are running around with 3000 toughness, effective 3800 power and 800 condition damage. They also have access to the most powerful CC in the game. This spec is absurd, and is obviously forcing other classes out of the team fighter role.

What’s the purpose of this thread? Learn to dodge Maul and not attack while the Ranger uses the GS block so that you don’t get counterstriked. Both of these attacks are far easier to avoid than backstab or pistolwhip, which do more damage.

The Ranger would have had to be incredibly glassy himself to do that sort of damage.

I think also a 3-4 second blind at the beginning of the skill would be in order. Birds swarming around your head tends to inhibit vision, at least momentarily.

Right now Hunter’s call is only decent in niche crit-bleeder builds and also for procing sun spirit burn on specific target. It’s kinda bad for a power build.

Looks like I overestimated Outplayed by children

Lux.7169:

Interrupting lord heal 2 complicated for NA.

I predict: Apex v Outplayed by children in the final with Apex winning in 4 games

@ Forzani…You can see the link on the second page when Arenanet makes you look at the link before heading there.

@OP, This is a strong build. Not sure if I agree with poison master (although I haven’t experimented much with that trait yet), but everything else looks very good