Guild Wars 2

+1 muramasa
there are 2 camps: those who think game should play like fps and those that think it should play like an rpg. gw1 was (probably) the best “rpg” pvp ever. gw2 is heading in the direction of fps. i think this is a real shame.

i don’t like conquest because it splits team

no

cuge.5398:

milo.6942:

they need to step away from trying to make each class viable at every role — this is a recipe for homogenization, not exciting pvp.

Actually i stated quite the opposite. But this wasnt the main point; the core was on how to improve the teamwork to an higher level and not just be a (focus dps -> down -> stomp -> next target ) play.

i’m a big boy, i can make my own points.

horizon is pretty far away man

Krilce.7864:

The problem is not in warrior itself, rather in inconsistent game design. Warriors and necros are the only professions that are designed in RPG manner, rather than FPS. They both clearly have their weaknesses(eg. necro mobility, and lack of stun breakers, warrior’s vulnerability to conditions, especially chill and cripple, and so on). Both of these professions have problems with survivability when focused, because of their weaknesses.

This is a typical RPG design, where you can’t excel in everything, and have to have a number of weaknesses covered by your team mates. On the other hand, we got professions which can put huge amount of damage, both condition and physical, while having good survivability, AND team utility. Tell me, why would you take a profession that excels in one thing, but lacks in several, over a profession that could put almost the same amount of damage in reasonable amount of time, and provide your team with much needed utilities, or healing. So, you got two professions which need to be babysitted in order to be effective, which is fine, and common in every game using RPG mechanics, and 6 others that can hold on their own, which would be FPS mechanic, and be as effective, if not more, than those 2.

You can’t find a simple solution. Either you buff these 2 professions, and stick to the FPS mechanic, which I don’t personally like, since I think this should be a team based game, and not full of solo players playing together, or nerf some aspects of other professions, like condi vulnerability, vulnerability to burst damage, mobility, team utility. Teams should be made so that each profession covers weaknesses of other ones, and vice versa, instead of a bunch of specs that are pretty much good at most of the things you can do.

wow today is lucky day for anet. they got so many great feedbacks. i have no faith left in anet to put any of this to good use, but it’s still great to hear we have so many people that understand the game at a fundamental level better than its developers.

yes you are right on the money.
many people don’t want to hear this because they think “i don’t want my class nerfed” but that is the difference between a player and a person that thinks about the whole game.

there isn’t too much else to be said. each class needs to have a substantial weakness that another class can fill. they need to step away from trying to make each class viable at every role — this is a recipe for homogenization, not exciting pvp.

SPESHAL.9106:

The problem with warriors and necros isn’t that they NEED more strengths per se.

The problem is that they need less severe weaknesses.

They’ve basically allowed other professions to have builds with virtually no weaknesses AND a very easy skill cap.

Playing a warrior or necro COULD be fun. However, they are now extinct because people quickly realize there are much better options. Other professions can be godlike (or at least viable) without having anywhere near the amount of tradeoffs as a necro/warrior.

Much of it has to do with so many talents/utilities being REQUIRED for these professions, which makes viable options harder to achieve.

They either need to nerf all the godlike builds of other professions or mitigate some of the weaknesses of warriors/necros.

In my case…I played a necro to rank 49 then switched to a ranger. I’m not even close to maximizing my skill yet for a ranger, yet I already feel 10 times more powerful and haven’t made it to rank 50 yet.

and here we go, someone else that gets it. i’m surprised there is actually a consensus on these forums. maybe devs should listen.

kostbabis.8791:

The idea is that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.Warrior could actually be the class that needs babysitting but at the same time could be one of the most important parts of the team.They dont need more sustain imo ..or boons ,or anything.What they need is mechanics that are reliable enough to become a destructive force as long as they have their weaknesses being taken care of by teammates..We dont need a second guard or elementalist or ranger.Just make them the ultimate teams weapon.
Idk i just think that would be better for the game overall than just going ahead and increasing warrios 1vs1 abilities through sustain.Cause damage reduction and more defence would achieve just that..another 1vs1 class ..like gw2 meta isnt already ruled by 1vs1 builds

thank you for another person that gets it.
however here is the question: would you rather take 2 rangers/eles/thiefs/mesmers or would you want to take a warrior and a babysitter? clearly the team that has half their people (2/5) that must stay together to be effective is going to be less competitive than the one with more versatile classes. so there are 3 solutions: add gametype that demands team fights to win, or nerf other classes to make warrior viable, or make warrior into a guardian. i pick option 2. remove all the regen and protection spam, tone down condition spam & condition removals, make interrupts an important factor again, and boom we’re cooking.

XII.9401:

lupercaleb.6041:

warriors are for team players
like in guild wars

useless when shut down by blind and melee hate
awesome when supported by others

give a warrior your boons
and strip the boons of his targets

So let me get this straight..on top of any other class performing better than the warrior..we need a baby sitter to be valid? I dunno..but it sounds like when they removed the healers every class was more or less independent except us.

I doubt the devs planned for warriors to tag along with another player and otherwise be useless..somehow I don’t think that’s how it works..

The fact that people are actually believing that the intention was for warriors to be appendages is just plain silly.

Current state..yes..intentiona? No.. I have a better..how about not having other classes fight two people off at the same time like a mesmer or a bunker guardian? Maybe then things will be a tad bit more balanced.

Warriors need a serious look into. There are many suggestions on the warrior forums that are ignored. The holy trinity: Guardians/mesmers/thieves need to be balanced.

i can only assume you didn’t play gw1 pvp. no melee class could do much of anything without support from healer to remove conditions and hexes (to say nothing of heals and prots). every class should lack something important so they can’t handle every situation. the difference is gw2 wants to be an fps where everyone is running around trying to solo everyone else. if the devs want to foster great pvp like they had in the original, they should remove access to self-support skills from those that deal lots of damage (like warrior is) and give classes with fewer damage opportunities the chance to support their teammates (and get rid of conquest). on the other hand, if anet wishes to continue this gameplay where it’s every man for himself, then they will turn warrior into either a guardian or a character no one takes.

lupercaleb.6041:

warriors are for team players
like in guild wars

useless when shut down by blind and melee hate
awesome when supported by others

give a warrior your boons
and strip the boons of his targets

finally someone that gets it.
but here is the problem: other classes do warrior job without needing support.
plus conquest is only game mode in entire world that actively tries to discourage teamplay.

edit: it’s like pvp dev team are scared. they’re scared their game mechanics can’t hold up in team fights; they’re scared they don’t have the population to support separate solo and team queues; they’re scared to give pvpers any gold or exp for their time spent; they’re scared to host a real-money tournament. complete disappointment.

the server lists the max ppl that can be in the server, but it also has a max # of player that can play. so you will see 12/20 which may mean there are 8 slots to play in, or it may mean the server is full and there are 8 spectator slots. it is a bad system.

i really don’t get why alcopaul keeps posting. he just keeps pounding at the argument that games get popular because people watch them. which is an amazingly vapid thought. games get popular because people like the gameplay. people watch the game because they enjoy it and it’s exciting to them. excitement comes from having a skill cap that allows for interesting and unexpected turn arounds. pro players make interesting things happen, which makes people want to watch them.

if the game is not interesting to competitive players, then there is no one interesting to watch.

i would argue that everything else needs to be brought to the warriors level. in fact, all these posts here describe how a warrior is basically what other classes should have been: good telegraphing moves, good damage, lacking some important aspect (such as cc or condi remove) that another class could provide for it. you know, teamplay. istead of each class being sulf-sufficient and completely removing any need to coordinate with your team during a fight.

I’d like to see the removal of the trait system, and its effects added to skills as conditional/situational effects.

all hail gw2!
game where you can jump and your character doesn’t look “extremely weird” when moving!
what innovation!
what incredible advances in gaming technology!

I’d like to see some other company capitalize on this situation & produce a quality pvp-only product similar to gw series to force anet to put up or shut up.

garethh.3518:

Conditions and cleansing was made badly and will take months if not years more balance to reach a respectable place.

/endthread

samo.1054:

it was made as a PvE game, and then they tossed whatever they had to the small understaffed and under-budged pvp team and told them to make some decent pvp out of it. Of course it doesn’t work that way…

Hugs.1856:

My guess is that the devs are very aware of what made GvG amazing but they thought it would be incompatible with an esport game.

And I absolutely despise that kind of thinking. They are willingly and purposefully taking the fun out 90% of the players to give it to shout casters, pro teams and the players who prefer watching streams than playing.

Designing a game to be esport introduces a gigantic bias in every single design decision. The priority is not the fun and the depth but the accessibility and how exciting it is to watch.

you think gw2 was designed to be esport? really?

because the game lacks teamplay, anything more than 3 players can be objectively considered a zerg. also, it is exactly the mechanics of teamplay & tactics that were what made gvg what it was. you can’t just take gw2 and expect to achieve the same thing by increasing team size. what kind of logic is that

that is ZvZ

alcopaul that has nothing to do with topic.

then you should put that key word “downed” in your title or even first post. also it’s not too bad but like everything in this game it needs heavy adjustment for pvp

what
………..

hi motoko
i don’t think this is a good use of anet’s time.
i too want to see gvg like in gw1, but i would not want to see a copypasta version of it and gw1’s professions in gw2.

instead, i’d like to see them take the fundamentals of gw1 & 2 and strip away all the casual pve mechanics. i’d like to see no dedicated support classes, but instead each class having viable support mechanics that are necessary to combat. currently, the best classes are self-sufficient — this is why teamplay doesn’t exist. i’d also like to see damage toned down across the board, as well as the removal of traits, the removal of stacking conditions, the removal of many gap closers & teleports, and the removal of the current attribute system and the re-introduction of the gw1 attribute system. combat pace should be identical to gw1. 6v6 combat with guild lords and flag stand and possibility to split/gank or stay together.

however, this is never going to happen, so i now still play gw1 gvg on quest days.

edit: also remove all the stupid ai-controlled clones/pets/minions/whatever, a great reduction & simplification of visual effects in fights, and re-introduction of meaningful interrupts. greatly simplify boon system to make each boon non-stackable, significant, and situational. i’m not sure if weapon-tied-skill system is good or not, i think it is interesting. however there need to be at least twice as many for each profession & elite skills need to be more interesting. also need energy back & all the energy management & denial tactics.

the absolute best thing the devs could possibly do would be to completely separate the pvp game into an actual other game so pve design choices don’t influence it. redo conditions, boons, traits, and heal skills to fit pvp needs. then we will have best pvp game ever.

Blackhat.4016:

I would add 2 more things to make the matches easier to watch for viewers:

• Cast bars: The viewers want to know which skill was used. Just looking at the animations is not enough.

• “Reduced effects option”: The spell animations are way to flashy. Even in a 1v1s it’s not that easy to see what’s going on. This is especially bad for new viewers.

these should be standard for all players

i made a comment about this already, but i make topic now to increase visibility

everyone already suggesting to split solo/team queue
so then, we would need solo & team leaderboard, but how do you add entry into leaderboard for random teams? solution: make only guilds able to enter tournament team queue. it seems restricting, but i think it would help give people a reason to stick together and give pvpers a reason to care about guilds. also it neatly solves the team queue potential leaderboard problem.

I don’t expect many players will like this change because they see it as restricting, but it is good.

i will bill anet 100 gems for this post.

no
/15characters

Dirame.8521:

milo.6942:

here anet, i spend 3 min for you to solve your queue problems:
separate solo q and team q tournies w/ independant leaderboards
only join team tourny with a guild, team leaderboard == guild rank leaderboard

probably everyone here will hate this because it seems restrictive, but it will help create “team” atmosphere and gives a reason to be in a guild.

you’re welcome

Yea, because just typing words creates the patch and applies it to the server.

hi and thanks for your input
i am basing my post on presupposition that pvp dev team doesn’t know what they want to do, because they’ve not given us any indication that they do.

here anet, i spend 3 min for you to solve your queue problems:
separate solo q and team q tournies w/ independant leaderboards
only join team tourny with a guild, team leaderboard == guild rank leaderboard

probably everyone here will hate this because it seems restrictive, but it will help create “team” atmosphere and gives a reason to be in a guild.

you’re welcome

MarkedOne.1309:

Leaderboards will have to be reset when Guild Wars 2 Beta is over.

eta 2015

this is nice suggestion, maybe we see it in 2015

Wizzlock.3492:

Agree and all, but You know. Guild Wars is name taken from wars of guilds – moment in history from before first campaign in GW1 and have nothing to do with player guilds or GvG (not even PvP). It was more about ascalonians fighting with krytans and so on. Lore stuff.

where’s the downvote button….

I went back to gw1 and played a gvg match. Games were popping pretty quickly. I found some pug team and it went badly, but was still better than conquest.

SuperHaze.4210:

milo.6942:

By the way, I always held out hope that pvp would become fun like I remember it from gw1. I’ve now realized that there are multiple, fundamental, conflicting reasons why it can’t ever be as good as its predecessor. I’m just going to look for a better game that’s serious about pvp. Later all.

+1

After this patch, I have no hope of this game being anything similar to GW1 (which is why I bought it in the first place and waited patiently for updates that can somehow make this a possibility).

I’m in gw1 now, standing in ra. Man this game is awesome, even the music and the ambient sounds bring back such good memories. Still enough people around for some good old ra, and from what I can see GvG is still happening (had 1 friend on list and he was in a match!). I’ll probably start gvging again in gw1. My old guild still plays, like holy kitten! Gonna RA a bit now, anyone want to gvg in future add me I’m G8 “I Was Milo”

By the way, I always held out hope that pvp would become fun like I remember it from gw1. I’ve now realized that there are multiple, fundamental, conflicting reasons why it can’t ever be as good as its predecessor. I’m just going to look for a better game that’s serious about pvp. Later all.

Parisalchuk.9230:

milo.6942:

ensoriki.5789:

Its the format. When you fight as a team in one area points are ticking every second elsewhere.

Yes but it’s the other way around: we have this format because sustained teamfights aren’t possible.

Thats not true, this format was used in GW1’s alliance battles and hero battles, and that had the precious trinity. This is the format because, aside of GvG which requires more pregame preparation and thus has less overall players at a given time vs arenas, capture point games are much more strategic then classic fight till you die arenas.

The developers have said time and time again that Conquest is the game mode we have because other formats don’t work well within gw2’s combat system. Point capture games are not “more strategic” — there is a problem with the basic game design that forces devs to try and split teams up.

ensoriki.5789:

Its the format. When you fight as a team in one area points are ticking every second elsewhere.

Yes but it’s the other way around: we have this format because sustained teamfights aren’t possible.

Parisalchuk.9230:

milo.6942:

I mean you can’t have more than 3 people having a fight in a spot for very long. If they focus 1 player at a time it’s just a race to downed state.

I think they should boost healing in general. The game is mainly focused around dodging to survive over healing to survive. Water eles, shout warriors would make good builds to boost to improve survivability. So I can agree with your opinion.

Actually I think they need to bring back protection prayers skills from gw1 monk and distribute them to all the classes. The real issue is dog piling multiple people on 1 person, so you’d need some kinda boon that prevents someone from taking damage over a certain threshold in a small timeframe. would be interesting to see how they work in gw2 (can’t target, must use aoe basically).

even as I write this I just sigh. it’s not going to happen so why am I still here typing.

I mean you can’t have more than 3 people having a fight in a spot for very long. If they focus 1 player at a time it’s just a race to downed state.

This game lacks the ability to have sustained teamfights. Why is that? Is it even true (I’m comparing with gw1)? Obviously we can say the major difference is not having dedicated healers, but what kinds of things are we missing specifically? Are there any plans to fix this?

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Allrdy mentioned 100 times by the community and hopefully recognized and considered to implement in the future.

it can’t be said enough
main problem is the teamfights that gw2 system can’t handle
everything else is drop-in from existing features & mechanics

There is no such thing as “no capture” setting. You can’t turn the nodes off.

Sprawl.3891:

IMO the only people who are going to pay are a few top teams and huge guild leaders that will just leave them open for 10v10 no cap glory farming as an advertisement for their guilds

90% large pvx (though really they’re pve) guild advertising
good prediction
who else is gonna want to pay money to keep these things open?
if you think about it, pvers have tons of gold they can use to get gems for it
pvpers have to spend cash
and if I do remember correctly, we have a ton of hotjoin servers already, why do we have to pay money to choose who we fight?

I’m getting really tired of all the downgrades we’re getting from gw1

Firebaall.5127:

Pyriall.5027:

Who is going to actually pay for those?

Glory/Rank farmers.

Already saw 1 in within 5 minutes.

Parisalchuk.9230:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyriall.5027:

Parisalchuk.9230:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyriall.5027:

Evan Lesh.3295:

… which is better than nothing at all…

Ahh the new found mantra of A-net. If you continue down this path, all of these little choices of “better than nothing” will lead inevitably to people taking the choice of nothing and moving on.

Like I said, we needed this technology anyways. It’s great that it can fill some of the roles of observer mode before we actually have observer mode

So is this then confirmation that a full observer mode with a higher limit of concurrent viewers is actively being designed/developed/tested?

It must be a disconnect in communication. I assumed, his original comment meant that there were technical limitations preventing observer mode. Now it sounds like it is something they are working on…Clarification please.

There are definitely technical limitations we have not solved.

I understand that, my question is still there though – is the plan TO solve them and release a full observer mode?

They got lots of plans man. 8 month long plan to release 10 person obs mode and password protected hotjoin. What more do you want?

it’s not esports because the pvp is not too interesting.
what would make it interesting: longer, sustained fights.
support classes & skills that can keep a team alive.
they don’t need to add “healers”, they just need to give professions support skills that are actually useful. think “spirit bond” from gw1, guardian, aegis, shielding hands. All the support skills they have now are boring and ineffective at stopping spikes. conquest is terrible because it’s the only game mode in existence for any pvp game that tries so hard to prevent team fights.

They said you can opt out of showing your build.
Everyone stop posting about your build insecurities.