Guild Wars 2

0 20 20 30 0 warrior, Inspiring banner, settler jewel, undead rune outheals p/p thief unload without doing anything, don’t even have to drop the banner and not even using the doyak rune, just sit and watch the thief unload on you. Oh don’t forget to laugh.
Anyone want to feel the joy, can test it on the pvp arena dummy thief. That dummy dummy hits really hard even on a guardian. This is so hilarious.

Rednik.3809:

noobftw.9654:

War > dd ele pre nerf.
More hp armor
More dps
More cc and immo. (DD ele has 2 cc 1 immo, hambow Warr for instance has at least 3 cc 2 immo)
More mobile.
Longer blocking invul vs shocking aura no ele uses arcane shield then
Ele only outshines Warr on healing and teleport.
Both are kinda spammy, Warr is more forgiving and less buttons.

Double ele teams was tPvP standard, some teams tried even triple ele comps. Now can you show me numerous double war tPvP teams, pretty please?

Now you are saying you don’t see double warrior teams?
And if I recall single ele far point was the standard when they were still viable, since when triple ele was ever in meta?

I’d like this too. Too much ress war in serious games

Archaon.6245:

OP warrior opening threads to explain why war is not op.

Reminds me crazy op eles months ago trying to explain how ele was fine because they wanted to continue “hurr durr i do what i want and you can’t stop me even if i’m bad as kitten”

War atm is almost as stupid as ele was months ago…and looking at casuals straight from pve rocking around facerolling ppl just spamming stuff not even knowing what are they doing is more than enough to invalidate every possible point defending wars..

War > dd ele pre nerf.
More hp armor
More dps
More cc and immo. (DD ele has 2 cc 1 immo, hambow Warr for instance has at least 3 cc 2 immo)
More mobile.
Longer blocking invul vs shocking aura no ele uses arcane shield then
Ele only outshines Warr on healing and teleport.
Both are kinda spammy, Warr is more forgiving and less buttons.

Anet has already give up esport. Look at all the new passive skills n traits and casual players giving serious talk on balance.
Following the trend in jan 10 patch you will see
1. Lyssa nerf
2. Thief new trait invisible nurse, immune to Condi in stealth.
3. Ranger new trait Pokemon power, immune to Condi when pet has 80% hp
4. Mesmer new skill Imaginary chuck Norris, summon chuck Norris who is just gonna be totally awesome, in the meantime immune to Condi for 10 sec.
In feb 10 patch, imaginary chuck Norris will be replaced by signet of chuck Norris, for casual player complains it’s to hard to time the skill.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i speak for myself, as a casual sPvP player, who enjoys using warrior in anet’s public 8 vs 8 hotjoin servers, and wvw

This speaks for itself.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Zenith.7301:

Yeah, like endure pain, shield stance, zerker stance, balanced stance, greatsword evade+4k crit (on the same skill plus being a mobility tool).

By all means keep buying into your little myth of light armored targets having more avoidance.

when one profession is balanced, it does not mean that balanced profession is overpowered. it usually means the other professions are not that balanced and require some upward adjustments to be on more par with other professions.

warriors
- can be tough, can tank damage
- can do lots of damage

if they trait / spec themselves for that purpose.
they cannot do everything.

+10000
Warrior is totally fine, op nub l2p qq thread. Warrior is not op , all other profs too weak. HS is more than fine, all other healing too weak. Warrior is only stronk when traited. If no trait warrior can’t do everything. Op needs to learn how to dodge. Dodge all warrior attacks op l2p. Op need to keep warrior poisoned 100%. Op need to learn bringing friends to fight warrior, when facing 3 players warrior goes down fast or runs away fast. Warriors is balanced its op doen’t know teamwork. Whoever says warrior can do everything is nub. Warr can dps tank cc sustain support run but Warr can’t steal, can’t clone, can’t invis, can’t haz pet, can’t summons spirits, can’t rtl, can’t backstab, can’t sanctuary, can’t haz z axis teleport…. 100b worst dps skills no one uses it. Kills shot can be dodged reflected. Hammer f1 predictable. 5 is too slow. Wtf warrior can’t even use short bow how can warrior be op?

You can’t use for example signets, shadow step in mid-air. Make some sense while you were jumping but would srsly kitten you up otherwise. For example when you are falling and got immo, if you are relying on signet or shadow step to cleanse then you dead.

Inverted.7439:

Yet another QQ thread because you dont know how to play, Anet should seriously just delete these or just get a bot to do it, seriously. You dont see top players making these threads or even commenting on them. Maybe that’s for a reason? Everything has a counter and it’s not hard to figure out what it is. Just takes some patience & skill. “omg spirit rangerzz so op they spam de 1” “omg warriors kill da op spirit rangerz they must be moaaar op as ever” is all i hear these days

Time to bring out the QQ gun huh?

The OP ‘s post is quite legit, it’s not about warrior but passive plays. Unless in your mind warrior=passive play. See, that’s exactly the problem.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

nah, warriors are balanced. just the other professions are weak.

Don’t mean to intrude, but that statement doesn’t exactly make sense. When every prof else is weak compared to you, it’s unbalanced.

bal·ance
noun \?ba-l?n(t)s\

: the state of having your profession compared equally to the others in guild war2

tbh I can’t really think of any other match up have gameplay. It’s all pretty much press the buttons when they get available. Care to enlighten me?

D/P thief vs hambow GS/LB warrior or GS/rifle warrior.
As a thief I really enjoyed playing against one of these warriors. The outcome is highly depended on the skill/timing/positioning. On the squishy thief side, every blackpowder, forward dodge roll, hearseeker, backstab, steal and axe swirl if timed right makes a big difference. Kudos to ANET. However needless to say the scale is a little skewed in favor of warrior in such matchup as they are more forgiving and more mobile to disengage. But still very good design, enjoyable gameplay. Probably the only thing keeps me playing.
Out of all 1v1 matchup, I would say sadly this is the only match that actually requires skills and timing. Why don’t anet take this as an example and design the rest of the game like it. And mostly importantly make results of such fight matter as much as possible?

ahuba.6430:

Tell me a build that takes support skills in this meta. Do you remember the power meta? IoL? Portal? In the power meta there was team play and support skills meant something. All your points are just wrong.

this, power meta is 100 times more cooperative than current meta. People actually bring portal, blast water finisher, time warp, and people actually bring support builds such as auramancer, venomshare and etc.
IMHO the first step anet needs to do of fixing everything to rollback everything prior to dhuumfire. It will make a lot of people happy.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Ezrael.6859:

…

As my OP outlines, I’m mainly against the idea that condition builds are inherently overpowered because you only need “1 stat,” which is why I asked for settler’s builds. Or that they lower the skill floor/cap because they feel “spammy,” when in reality they add complexity to the game (and there’s no difference between spamming conditions and spamming direct damage, either).

Lets please also not forget power dmg can be mitigated by toughness, vitality, blocking, blind, weakness, cripple and chilled. Condition damage ignores toughness and even if you are blinding, weakened, immo you can still lay lame condi circles with staff or longbow like nothing got you. And what’s more? It’s unblockable.
The past 4 month of condi meta is the worst gaming experience and exact the reason why many people no longer play including me.
Necro dumbfire was a dumb idea in the first place, and buff the captain-do-it all to counter it make it even worse. I still remember how it feels when I landed all smoke field, steal backstab combo perfectly to beat a warrior on point, he just launch up like a rocket and take mid point fight 4v3 with full hp 4 sec later while I had to sit on the far point decap it for the point lost in stealth.

Flamfloz.6732:

noobftw.9654:

Flamfloz.6732:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Mrbig.8019:

The point is not if you enjoy it or not.

yes, it matters. i play a game to enjoy.

I don’t mind HotJoin (actually plays it), however yes I have a problem when people are getting in the way of “my enjoyment” of SoloQ by being terrible players.

This is where I see the point made by some posters that “HotJoin” teaches you some bad habits.

But that’s the nature of the beast I suppose…

Lol, again the self righteousness of a soloQ’er.
First of all, wth are you worrying about carrying hj nub? If a hj nub happens to join up soloQ 5 out of 10 times hes gonna be you opponent and work in you favor to help u get higher in the leader board(thats why most u play soloQ not? ) Only the other 4 out of 10 times u will have to carry him. Ofc it would be statistically unfavor for you if u yourself is a nub.
Secondly, please stop all the nonsense of hj is the wrong way to play conquest. As a matter of fact, arena is the wrong way to play this game since there is nothing to ‘arena’ about. Just stop pretending this game is competitive and you will suddenly have the best casual pvp game ever.
Lastly, I started this game since beta and still stayed and enjoyed this game till this moment. And now you are telling me I should just ‘pro’ the game up, and then quit it like jumper, xphe did? Thx but no thx. You are the ppl who is playing this game wrong, not me.

And you are? Since you seem to have quite a strong opinion about me and know me “so well”, I’d assume we’ve met in game…

An 8v8 spamfest on the middle point is – believe it or not – the wrong way to play conquest if you are trying to win.

I didn’t tell you to “pro” the game up, merely that “your enjoyment”, as important as it may be to me (and you can rest assured that your enjoyment of GW2 is my primary concern whenever I connect to the game!) can sometimes get in the way of the enjoyment of the game of other people who – because they chose to enjoy the game in a different manner than yours – would be affected by your possible “lack of competitiveness” in game. And I am specifically talking about people in soloQ here.

After all, someone might enjoy sitting during the PvP game (it is the way they enjoy the game), yet someone has to give in if their “enjoyment” gets in the way of the enjoyment of other people.
So no, I don’t think the good solution is necessarily for everyone to lower their standard of “enjoyment of the game” to the lowest common denominator (which would be the person who sits through the entire game of SoloQ).

The only tangible way of stopping running into nub in you precious soloQ is to close up the queue for now and only allow whoever is on the leader board to play. Happy?
Apart from all the other problem the soloQ has, the community is also confusing as hell. Peeps whining about not enough player do solo and in the meantime wants to kick the newbs out. Just what will make u guys happy already?

Flamfloz.6732:

noobftw.9654:

Flamfloz.6732:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Mrbig.8019:

The point is not if you enjoy it or not.

yes, it matters. i play a game to enjoy.

I don’t mind HotJoin (actually plays it), however yes I have a problem when people are getting in the way of “my enjoyment” of SoloQ by being terrible players.

This is where I see the point made by some posters that “HotJoin” teaches you some bad habits.

But that’s the nature of the beast I suppose…

Lol, again the self righteousness of a soloQ’er.
First of all, wth are you worrying about carrying hj nub? If a hj nub happens to join up soloQ 5 out of 10 times hes gonna be you opponent and work in you favor to help u get higher in the leader board(thats why most u play soloQ not? ) Only the other 4 out of 10 times u will have to carry him. Ofc it would be statistically unfavor for you if u yourself is a nub.
Secondly, please stop all the nonsense of hj is the wrong way to play conquest. As a matter of fact, arena is the wrong way to play this game since there is nothing to ‘arena’ about. Just stop pretending this game is competitive and you will suddenly have the best casual pvp game ever.
Lastly, I started this game since beta and still stayed and enjoyed this game till this moment. And now you are telling me I should just ‘pro’ the game up, and then quit it like jumper, xphe did? Thx but no thx. You are the ppl who is playing this game wrong, not me.

And you are? Since you seem to have quite a strong opinion about me and know me “so well”, I’d assume we’ve met in game…

An 8v8 spamfest on the middle point is – believe it or not – the wrong way to play conquest if you are trying to win.

I didn’t tell you to “pro” the game up, merely that “your enjoyment”, as important as it may be to me (and you can rest assured that your enjoyment of GW2 is my primary concern whenever I connect to the game!) can sometimes get in the way of the enjoyment of the game of other people who – because they chose to enjoy the game in a different manner than yours – would be affected by your possible “lack of competitiveness” in game. And I am specifically talking about people in soloQ here.

After all, someone might enjoy sitting during the PvP game (it is the way they enjoy the game), yet someone has to give in if their “enjoyment” gets in the way of the enjoyment of other people.
So no, I don’t think the good solution is necessarily for everyone to lower their standard of “enjoyment of the game” to the lowest common denominator (which would be the person who sits through the entire game of SoloQ).

Lol stop all the ppl getting in your way trash talk like u gonna steam roll man of steal without the dead weights. It’s just a game and no one is gonna stop u having fun but if u goal of gaming is to be top of the leader board there’s gonna be 17000 soloQer stopping u. And you can candi spam, aoe spam, ai spam, evade spam ur way up there but in the end I bet u will quit just like jumper helseth xepth and etc.
I don’t play 8v8 myself and absolutely hate running into the train when I’m not on my thief. But if others like it whatha kidden am I to stop em.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i don’t think the problem is “is it going to be an esport or not”. it could surely be.

the problem is trying to force your way into it. when you go in with the mentality that you’re going to turn something into something it is not (an esport, a new “classic”, or “the new star wars” as bungie is doing with destiny), you’ll likely fail.

GW2 has more chance of becoming an e-sport if ANet focuses on GW2 as the game than if they focus on GW2 as the sport. once it becomes a sport, then you worry about sport stuff.

^
Anet, please listen to this dude, and the community. Stop trying to force your way into esport. A bad game in esport is worse than a bad game clear of any fancy. Instead just focus on the gameplay, lets have more builds, more weapons, more game modes and more ways to have fun. If u put you energy into the game itself, u will have a esport game b4 u notice.

Flamfloz.6732:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Mrbig.8019:

The point is not if you enjoy it or not.

yes, it matters. i play a game to enjoy.

I don’t mind HotJoin (actually plays it), however yes I have a problem when people are getting in the way of “my enjoyment” of SoloQ by being terrible players.

This is where I see the point made by some posters that “HotJoin” teaches you some bad habits.

But that’s the nature of the beast I suppose…

Lol, again the self righteousness of a soloQ’er.
First of all, wth are you worrying about carrying hj nub? If a hj nub happens to join up soloQ 5 out of 10 times hes gonna be you opponent and work in you favor to help u get higher in the leader board(thats why most u play soloQ not? ) Only the other 4 out of 10 times u will have to carry him. Ofc it would be statistically unfavor for you if u yourself is a nub.
Secondly, please stop all the nonsense of hj is the wrong way to play conquest. As a matter of fact, arena is the wrong way to play this game since there is nothing to ‘arena’ about. Just stop pretending this game is competitive and you will suddenly have the best casual pvp game ever.
Lastly, I started this game since beta and still stayed and enjoyed this game till this moment. And now you are telling me I should just ‘pro’ the game up, and then quit it like jumper, xphe did? Thx but no thx. You are the ppl who is playing this game wrong, not me.

Mrbig.8019:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

@Jack,

the beauty of hot join is casual spvp, which cannot be found in solo arena or team arena.

people simply wants a place to fight, to run, etc.

they want to be able to join in anytime and leave anytime.
if they stay until the end, they earn some extra glory and rank points.
flexibility. freedom.

you cannot get any of those in solo or team arena.

and now you want to take these freedom away from us.
what do you expect us to feel when you say that?

The point is not if you enjoy it or not.

Hotjoin teaches bad habits, and doesn’t make you to learn the game HOW IT SHOULD BE PLAYED.

Hotjoin should be what the name says: join whenever you want, leave whenver you want, with no penalties ( aka HOTJOIN).

But you need to not be rewarded for playing bad.

8vs8 should not exist, since maps are not designed for such high number of players.

You should not gain glory if you lose, because you should play to win.

Only if this gets fixed we can hope for the reward overhaul PvP desperately needs.

Period.

Lol, you have the OP preaching us to find 3v3, gvg or even look for a fight in soloQ and turn around to tell us we doing conquest wrong?

Geeze, what’s up with this soloQ pride. Just assuming everyone in hotjoin is of lower breeed? What did this healthy attitude come from?

Chicago Jack.5647:

No CnD sucks because of wind-up time. The only other option to quicken that is through quickness, which ether is an rng proc or a skill on a 60 second recharge time. This is offtopic though.

Lol, you are the first person to tell me quickness should be used on CnD. Just LOL. CnD has no cast time, it cloaks you on the first target you hit, what frustrates you is probably the swing motion. Psst, turn your character anti-clockwise while in animation, it fastens the motion and hits 360 degrees instead of 180-. Don’t thank me, this trick wont help you much in soloQ. coz the only reason thief is a must there is boon strip on s/d 3 and CnD is just in the way. But if you want to use quickness your way, be my guest.

I am not gonna preach you how to play so please don’t preach me how to play either. And don’t even think about I need your help to counter meta build just because I rather play hotjoin than arena. And I am not even going to point out how you fail at conquest since you ‘look for a fight’.

Let’s leave it at that but one thing I can promise you is, once hot join is removed, it’s the death of gw2 pvp. At least in current conquest era. But who cares.

Chicago Jack.5647:

@noobftw,

Do you honestly think I play solo que because i think video gams are serious business? Hell no. I don’t cap worth crap in solo que. I look for the fights because they’re fun. “serious business” is team tpvp to me. Who says that you have to play meta? You won’t see many new players play meta – which is great because that means they are LEARNING HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. Do you even solo que bro?

For example, they might use dagger offhand on thief and realize that it’s crap because of the cast time on CnD. They will realize that any good player will ether dodge roll, blind, or aegis it. Then they learn the power of dodging, blinding, or aegis’ing (I realize that isn’t a word). No meta builds needed to tell them that.

Hotjoin is the very thing that is suffocating the spvp of this game.

dude, what are you talking about. Hotjoin is suffocating the pvp? In which way? By entertaining a hug portion of pvp’er?

Hotjoin is easy in and out fun if you know how to have fun. Plus it offers the gameplay closest to GVG, death match, 3v3, 2v2. Now you want to remove that and make everyone commit 15mins to SYG spam, condi spam, aoe spam, evasion spam, ress spam … all the nonsense on the point, and now I need to get on mic every time I want to be taken seriously. SRSLY, What about just having fun?
You soloQer really need to understand how to have fun instead of caring about the leaderboard.
I do play soloQ and tourny too but it’s just not right for me there. It’s not a serious game so stop pretending to be serious pros. And CnD is crap not because the slow animation (many ways to make it work), its because the conquest game mode. If you ever come to hotjoin or wvw you might see some good pd or even dd thief once a while coz in hotjoin majority doesn’t care about the points, which is where the game needs to be IMHO.

Chicago Jack.5647:

You go to solo que. Why is everyone afraid of solo que? The rating system puts you in matches with people who are of similar skill as you.

Please, don’t force everyone into something that can’t be taken serious at all but still has a rating system. The queue aside, solo and dead tpvp just reinforce meta builds over and over again but in hotjoin you see new builds once in a while, and once in a while there is serious game play. And hotjoin doesn’t require ress utilities to play and no one there would suggest me reroll if I were on my mesmer or ele.

Time to wake up, competitive game play is not realistic. Once you take the blue pill and try to enjoy the pvp as causal you actually end up having fun.

please don’t. ATM hotjoin is the best of pvp. Easy daily and no queue.

Any known plan to fix it? Removing drown state underwater is not hard. There might be implication that I don’t see, but it’s been a long time since release, they must have thought about it and there must have been plans.

Any suggestions how to cap underwater ruin from ranger? The drown 3 skill is a joke and the pet is tankie and even after you killed the pet, well, it is still ressing.

lynnhood.8270:

To stay with the enjoyment of watching and playing games, claims have been made that continuous rezzing takes away from enjoyment, implicitly because it is preferable to see or have players die rather than enjoying a long fight where the possible outcome is always kept unpredictable because the upper hand continuously shifts from one team gaining the upper hand to the other.

Here again some quotes:

Static.9841
“I’m kind of tired of killing the same person over and again in a heated group fight only to see them get raised 4-5 times before someone can actually land a stomp, though also, to be fair, kudos to the team actually bothering to help their own team mate that many times!”
KrisHQ.4719
“In PvP and WvW you should only have one downed state before getting defeated. It’s not exciting to see the same guy rally 4 times, It’s getting rather lame instead actually. The first rally/ress however is always exciting.”

Again I think this boils to the wish to play a game where killing other players should be the focus (i.e. besting other players) rather than fighting continuously over achieving goals as a team and strategizing and moving appropriately as a team for that. Note that this seems to be a question of where a game focuses on, of course, often games have a little bit of both as does GW2. It seems to be a bone of contention where the focus lies. Some people like the former and other people like the other, but there are no ‘objective’ arguments for either preference and basing claims on a narrow understanding of competition is not helpful. It obfuscates the subjectivity behind the claims made. (Also note the use of the verb “killing” for “downing a player”. This ties the comment made by static to the discussion about viewing downed state as an integral part of the fight rather than actually having achieved the goal of killing someone. The use of the verb killing provides a false idea of what getting somebody into downed state is, i.e. downing equals killing. For a counterview see above.)

Finally, there some of the posts above imply that there are instarezzes out there, where with a quick push of a button players are rezzed. Most rezzes take time and to land “Signet of Undeath”, for example, after you realize a player has been downed, not shortly before, is difficult in a fast paced game, i.e. it takes skill to land it before a stomp starts and decide not to use it if the stomp started already (i.e. skill and management of resources). Also players with rezz utilities can be interrupted or cced once a teammate goes down to prevent them from using rez utilities (adding strategy, skill, and team coordination). Quick rezzes (or so called insta rezzes) come about from a concerted effort by a team to rezz a teammate (I view rez here as opposed to rally for this argument). Players can like that or not, but there are no insta rez utilities out there.
Note:
Stomp: 2 seconds to cast
Signet of Undeath: 2 seconds to cast
Battle Standard: 2 seconds to cast
Illusion of Life: 1 1/4 seconds, have to kill an opponent (as argued by opponents of downed state too difficult).
Glyph of Renewal: 3 ½ seconds to cast
I probably forgot something, but this is just to give you an idea.

I am not saying to remove it as a whole, but its currently state is uninviting IMO. Say a newbie came stumbles into a tourny with builds and tips from forum and only to find out he can’t finish anyone no matter how unless there is a team backing him with stomp person and downstate strategy. I wouldn’t bet on him staying.
I have been in matches that team won by not defeating opponent but staying in mid point and spam SYG, sanctuary, scepter 5, shield 5, toolkit 4. There is no need to ever attack, just push/knockback opponent from the point and then the rest is ress.
The wvw community has learned to counter down-state gaming by running only PVT gears and go full bunker traits, and I am seeing this trend spreading into PVP. There is hardly any reason not doing so. After all, you win by holding two points, and it only requires a ress feast at min point or knockback spammer at far point to win it. Anything else is trivia. In other words, even if you’ve mastered the combo 100% and mad skill daze burst 3142152131 your target into pieces, don’t feel good about it, it has nothing to do winning the game, in fact you should be ashamed since you’ve contributed no stability, no knockback, no ress to the fight and team will be much better off replacing you with a macro bot that does above-mentioned thing on point repeatably.

It’s a depressing game to play.

IMHO how the team handles downed state affects the score too much. I’ve been in matches when you can’t kill an afker in mid point fight. You can burst him down for sure, but he get ressed in 2 sec by mates with ress traits, that’s way faster than the stomp animation. Even when you got 2 or 3 down, they get ressed by Mesmer, ranger or engi utility skills. Sure there are ways to stomp lock such as thief shadow return, stealth, steal, blind, Mesmer distortion, mist form,engi elixir s. but the stomp animation is way slower than ress with trait. The fact that you have so many skills for stomp and antistomp tells you this game is way too much about downed state, IMHO it’s more important than anything else.
It’s a fun idea to begin with, however now it has taken over the whole game. Most of recent serious games I have played turned to a ress feast at mid point.
The current state of the game is really sad, and the worse part is I don’t know how they can fix it without completely redo the whole game.

Add more gameplay in PVP. IMHO we only have below things to do in pvp.
1. press the buttons that spams AOE.
2. press the buttons that spams AI
3. Apply stability to yourself and knock the other team off the point.
4. Analyze the situation when there is downed and play it correctly.
The only thing that’s competitive atm is the handling of downed state. Don’t get me wrong, there are other competitive aspects of GW2 but in pvp they don’t matter a penny.

Reevz.2617:

any well coordinated balanced team comp

any well coordinated team only plays certain comp. pretty sure 5x jumper thief synced as one won’t has any chance in that mid point.

Im start to get the feeling that the dev is giving up pvp altogether now. There is too many problems inherited from fundamentals of the game that are unfun and quite unfixable unless redo it from scratch. I don’t even want to mention the condition meta now, but when can we fix the AI overflow and poor targeting system on top of that?

Mammoth.1975:

Mace/GS warrior
GS shatter mes
S/D ele
Guard who doesn’t autopilot SYG
Backpoint bunker

Troll necro all day with mace and aoe spike when the warriors try to peel. If they don’t lineback your warrior the necro is dying long before anything on your team (because warrior vs ele or mesmer looks like a benny hill episode) and if they do they get blown up by 100b/shatter/airspike while staring forlornly at their zerker stance buttons, cleansing ire traits, and heal sig passives. Just SYG spikes and let your warrior balanced or dolyak stomp.

O ya return of the 100b!

half of SYG can be countered by corrupt boon. with so much aoe cc I dont think even the guard cant have too much standonground time. But I guess you are right, 3 guardian team might be able to do it. They just need to hold the mid long enough or just use sanctuary to neutralize/cap it.

Endless aoe stun, fear, condition. Yeah I know I need to kill ranger elite spirit, and I seriously tried lol. It seems there is no way possible can cap mid point when facing team comp like such. Any counters?

Pendleton.6385:

I’m biased to ranger … I won’t go over all the differences because others have already done it.

For me, the best part of playing a ranger is being considered an easy target. If you’re a decent player, it will work to your advantage.

A typical scenario:

Player will see a ranger and think of him as an easy kill or a quick bag. I find they run at you in a half hazard manner without the caution they would give another class. When you survive their assault and stack bleeds, conditions, and other steady damage … they usually panic and this leads to their death.

Personally, I find delight in this. It’s like debating a topic and using someone’s point against them.

This isn’t always the case but I find it happens a lot.

Some players seem to attach a stigma to being downed by a ranger (like embarrassed or something) … use it to your advantage : )

My two cents about roaming with a ranger and why it’s fun.

^ Ranger is and was the top tier PVP class now and before the patch. Only difference is the skill cap is lowered even more (I am looking at you, spirit ranger). As long as you have the right build and can master sword #2 as gap opener/closer or apply leap on healing spring if you ever use em ,you are a good ranger.

tarcheg.4872:

Now let’s have a look at cond classes. One might argue that you can do the same with cond classes. Dodge the confusion bomb, dodge in necro marks etc. But:
first – cond classes in general do not rely on one heavy burst like a bs thief, 100b warrior, ele, mesmer – they are able to have a much higher sustain dmg output to melt targets over a couple second rather than killing it in half a second.
second – and this is the really broken aspect imo: Engis and Necros (the two used cond classes atm) have a trait which gives them their most dmg on a proc. It’s like a thief trait which gives him every 10s a bs on a proc. Burning is the one condition a class needs to have an effective condition spec. Burning is where most of the dmg comes from. And there srsly is a trait which gives you 60% burning up time (4s + cond duration / every nec/engi has at least 50% burning duration) on a proc.
Let me explain why it is op to have your main dmg coming from a proc. It’s pretty simple. Did you ever try to dodge a proc? Or to blind it? Or evade it with anything else??? It’s just not possible. Let’s say you know that the icd of his burning trait is off so you dodge his next attack to avoid the burning application. What does this do? You get no dmg during the time you evade, BUT his main dmg source did not go on a cd and most likely you will be burned for 6s with his next attack. There just is no way to effectively evade the burning. This is a huge different when compared to how power classes do their main dmg and to be honest – this is intolerable in a game in which “skill” is evading the attacks which hurt you the most.
Ofc all necros and engis will say now, that we have cond removal to counter them. But what many people forget is, that some classes just simply have no access to cond removal like mesmer and others just don’t pay off.
Let’s look at the current meta in which cond removal plays a huge part. We pretty much always have a mesmer with 0 cond removal. Than there is most likely an ele with very limited cond removal (see my statement at the top about ele and cond removal) we got an engi with limited cond removal (2 every ~17s ae) and a necro who has 0 cond removal but cond transferring – but transferring does not take conds out of the game. The general feeling of how conds rule the game atm is not reduced by transferring them to the enemy team. On the opposite – the other team will feel even more screwed by conds. Only the guard has atm reasonable access to cond removal with his shout build.
In addition there are very few runes with -cond duration which are almost not used in the current meta.
As it seems, the last patches have shifted the meta in the condition direction a huge step. The contras for pwer classes outshine the contras for cond classes – which is pretty much only cond removal – by far and the meta is representing that fact by team comp consisting of 1 bunker guard, 2 necro, 1 engi and a mesmer (mostly because portal and iol are still just a must have).

I wanna say at the end, that this is not a necro op thread. Or an engi op thread. This thread just wants to outline the general disadvantages of any power class compared to cond applying classes.

Good post. Let just added a couple of more things.

1. Chill, cripple are perfect counter to melee power attacks, but does not counter cond attack at all. Reflection counters rifle burst but not to grenade or mark spam. Blindness counters all power attacks but nope to marks or wells. Blocking doesn’t counter marks. Cond ticks under invul and distortion….. In general there are more counters to direct dmg than to cond dmg. Only reliable counter to cond is dodge the source or cleanse. When u have to rely on utility skill cleanse, I never could understand how cleanse can be op against cond spam.

2. The major condition source in meta are ranged aoe, which is already a big advantage meaning you don’t have to take as much risk melee players takes but the reward is significantly bigger.

3. IMHO giving a aoe cond heavy, cc heavy class ability to burst is outright cirminal. It skews the balance even further till the end. When u under cc’ed cond burst, you are in the need for big amount of cleanse from utility skills, none class not even guardian in shout spec can pop out enough cleanse for that.

Why does op want the chaos armor in certain way just to counter thief? If a staff mes vs a thief 1 v1 for a point the mes has already won.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Lordrosicky.5813:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Wait, people can actually play bomb engies successfully now? I need to stop ghosting the forums and play a few rounds, sounds like the game is getting better.

Yeh its very strong going far point in stealth and beating all but necros in a 1v1. 1v2 = np – stealth and run off

That’s great news. A couple months ago, engineers had probably four of the top five most fun non-viable builds. It’s great to hear that they are becoming usable.

Guess you gave up pvp too soon. Engy has a couple meta builds now. Condy pp build used to be the king of far point also does great in mid point. Bomb engi nullifies any melee power builds, a great home point stealer. recently 30 30 10 necro has raised up to the top and beats anyone at mid, home or far point. Before that it was pretty much engi.

Is this another invention of anet? DOT=damage over time, let’s be clear on that. C’mon, condition build only need to invest in one stat and rest can go to defensive and it ignores toughness while dps has to invest in 3 and is countered by both toughness and vitality. Not to mention ,blocking, blind, weakness, chill, cripple , static aura, static charge, reflection, protection, distortion, stability poorly counters condition attack (mark and bomb kit) while very effective against power attacks, heck condition even affects you in invulnerability.
Is gw2 intended to be played by standing at 1200 range and tossing marks and bombs? Burst was the last only advantage power builds have against condi builds, please keep it that way.

Renxian.6982:

To OP. A s/p thief does not have access to perma stealth alone. If 20 of you are letting a two man thief team stand around combo fielding you are all in need of some serious pvp experience.

Kicast.1459:

This thread is a wonder:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Level-80-D-P-in-WvW-Where-am-I-going-wrong

If you want to hear from a thief that
- thieves are OP
- perma-stealth exists and that it makes you unkillable
- perma-stealth thieves have still hudge damage

you’d better present yourself as a thief.

Some delicious parts:

“Standard perma-stealth build of 0/30/30/10/0 outputs enough damage. Heavies will take time to kill but you should be completely unkillable using perma-stealth.”

“On a better note I did manage to engage in and win a 2v1 against a Mesmer and Ranger. It wasn’t the most spectacular of fights but I was quite pleased considering my inexperience so it was a morale victory to say the least.”

And top of the top, they feel that not being able to kill someone while more numerous is “incredibly frustrating” :

“A similar thing happened with an Elementalist, only it was myself and 2 others versus her and despite a good minute of combat she must have got bored and decided to retreat to a Keep with a sizeable amount of health still intact. I have to admit, that fight was incredibly frustrating.”

Well that is exactly what thieves do to all other classes in a much bigger ratio.

But ok, it is just a
-L2P issue
-You just have to know where thief is and what he will do
-If he let you, you win

It seems Thief community feets perfectly well with profession mentality.

I like the part where you paraphrase that link in a way totally different than the content warrants. That player was frustrated because, as a thief, he was struggling to kill anything, even in 1v1s. The comment about an ele was stating that even with a numbers advantage he couldn’t kill the ele (because good ele’s are fuggin unkillable) and the person who said “you’ll be invincible with your perma stealth” is a well known thief forum troll.

Nice try though.

s/p thief actually has perma stealth, but its tricky.

Anyway, the inability of OP to tell if thief is sp or dp pretty much answers his own frustration.

Aberrant.6749:

Just play whatever class you find fun. All classes other than thief can play important roles in larger group battles when built properly.

If you’re looking to do some 15v15 GvG or something akin to that… then anything Necro and above on that list can easily take a spot.

Eng/Ranger can as well but they are more niche.

If you find everything fun… and have a specific guild in mind you should just want to ask them what they need most in what role. Guards and mesmers might be great… but not so great if the guild you want to get into has an abundance of them.

thief can’t be important? lol, don’t be mad at troll thieves. Even a thief trolling 10+ zerg is contributing way more than any ranger in wvw. And thief brings dark field, posion field, blast and dagger storm in zerg fight, the support ranger can bring into zerg fight is next to zero. Rangers do need some ANET love (OK, ranger is good at single target, but needs more AOE and fields).

But back to your point. Any class/build is playable in wvw, below is a list that I knew:
D/D or S/D ele, dueling, roamer, small group fight
staff ele, zerg fight
condi engi, dueling, roaming, small group fight, zerg fight
rifle engi, dueling, small group fight.
staff necro, small group, zerg fight, not bad at all in roaming too.
staff guardian, zerg fight, small group fight.
GS shield scepter hammer guardian, roamer or small group fight.
longbow rifle warrior, zerg fight
GS axe shield warrior, roamer.
sb thieves, roamer, small group, zerg fight.
There are too many viable thief builds for wvw. But thieves are exceptionally good as scout or roamer, way better than what they can do in zergs
sb sword/dagger-torch-warhorn gw ranger, roamer, small group fight
longbow ranger, supposed to be zerg build but still really bad at everything atm, best role is to sit in tower and shoot from 1500 ranger.

EllieHXO.6854:

I have an 80 necro and back when gw2 first started all necros could do was stand on a wall and spam runes or spread conditions , and with all the condition removal flaying around and such long rune cd’s they where not exactly usefull. Has all that changed ? If so could you please explain there group and solo versatillity . Thanks

condition removal has been nerfed , i.e. engi elixir only removes one condition now instead of all. And what’s worse is when you are feared, you have to use utility to break it (all weapon skills in cooldown when feared) or otherwise the fear will be chained and 30k hp will be gone in less than 6 secs. There is only weak condition builds but condition is nowhere near UP since release.
Necro has been brought up from bottom to top in popularity since 625 patch. Even before patch necro was nowhere near weak. The blind, terror fear, AOE condition, plauge it brings to zerg fight would melt full pvt warriors in seconds. Necro is the META class atm. I would understand if someone puts guardian on top of necro but warrior over necro??? that’s beyond me.

Atherakhia.4086:

Guardian, Mesmer, or Elementalist are the top 3 all around classes. Rangers and Thieves round out the top classes in this game overall, but neither the Thief or Ranger is all that valuable to larger group/zerg play. One brings a single field, the other brings the ability to blast said field. That’s where their worth in a zerg ends. One could argue the benefit zergs elsewhere by scouting out enemies (Eles can do it just as well) or by killing Dolyaks and attacking doors to throw up false swords (lol, do you really want to do this as your intended role?).

But yea, can’t go wrong with Guardian, Mesmer, or Elementalist as each are quite powerful and valuable in any situation (zerg, small group, roaming, solo).

for the complete list in my order I’d go:

Guardian
Mesmer
Elementalist
Warrior
Necromancer
Engineer
Ranger
Thief

^^ ignore that list, it lost credibility once I saw necro is not TOP 2.

Atherakhia.4086:

PinCushion.7390:

Atherakhia.4086:

For as powerful as you all make stealth appear to be, you’d expect the thief to be some kind of unstoppable juggernaut in this game. It’s not. In any capacity. Want to talk about good roamers? Thieves, Eles, Guardians, Mesmers, and Rangers are each equally viable despit stealth the way it is now. Want to talk about zergs? Thieves are functionally useless. Want to talk about burst? Mesmers, Warriors, and Elementalists are capable of more. Want to talk about mitigating damage? The thief can’t… it has only avoidance. Want to talk about avoidance? Elementalists and Mesmers regain vigor faster, and Thieves have less health.

So yes, stealth is powerful. But the thief class apparently isn’t gaining so much of an advantage to put it above more than half the classes out there. And you all are here thinking you’d get away with adjusting stealth in some fashion without dramatic improvements elsewhere?

The only thing that could possibly even be considered at this point is an adjustment to the leap finisher to smoke field from granting stealth to instead provide protection or aegis. I’d argue this isn’t even the problem as I see nothing wrong with perma-stealth in theory. I only see a problem with not seeing a noticeable damage reduction in exchange for the added utility being provided. And this is an issue with initiative regen (the root of all your complaints if only you all played thieves to the same level you’re playing forum warriors).

Initiative regen is my only complaint. I don’t have a problem with Thieves having permastealth as long as it’s the focus of their build. I don’t have a problem with Thieves having insane burst, as long as they’ll run out of steam at some point. I have a problem with Thieves that get effectively perma-stealth AND great burst AND great sustain at the cost of low HP/Armor. I wouldn’t mind seeing Thieves get a damage increase, as long as it was for higher burst and way worse Initiative regen.

And, honestly, if they never changed that stuff I wouldn’t even care. The Thief issue isn’t that big a deal. They gank me now and again. Sometimes they try and run away. Most of the time I’m near group members and they stay away.

And as a Thief, that is my complaint too. The only legitimate complaint people can raise about the Thief class is initiative regen is not properly balanced. Of course you can’t change it without redesigning the class from the ground up either so it’s really going to be up to ANet to dedicate the time and resources to make sure they do it right and don’t end up leaving this game with 7 classes.

whoa, you complaining about having too much initiative?

Here is an easy solution, just imagine you only have 8 initiative instead of 12 or 15. Every time you used more than 9 initiatives you can jump off a cliff. There, that should make you happy for a while.

Lets make this very clear. Thief is underpowered in spvp and tourny, underpowered in wvw zerg fight. Only has some up-hand as scout, roamer or troll in wvw.

roamer give eyes to the zerg. Any zerg without roamer is a wiped zerg.

Fenrir.6183:

noobftw.9654:

Straegen.2938:

Even a ranger can get better condition removal if traited for it.

Ranger’s cleanse is highly unreliable, being cleanse from the bear (if anyone still runs bear), or signet of renewal or the 30 major WS trait, all depends on the pet being alive some even depends the pet being close. Ranger don’t have any counter to condition burst and is really weak against immobilize.

You forgot about healing spring.

true healing spring is the only reliable cleanse ranger has. IMO troll unguent works better than it in wvw but you are right, ranger do have one on-demand cleanse , with 30s CD. It still takes no more than 2-3 timed and undodged immobilize to make BM ranger cry.

Riko.9214:

@noobftw
1)“noob for the whine” suits you perfectly, nice name.
2)Thief needs to attack from stealth and far not all builds have 4 s of it, so if thief waits for 3 s in stealth then he miss bs. So in reality it’s only 1 cond per kitten (don’t forget about reveal).

1) you are calling others noob and you can’t do a good perma stealth chain? lol. Count 3 sec in your mind and use CnD or smoke at 2.5. You will get out of stealth for only 0.x sec then enter stealth again. You can do that on a wall, on a siege, on the dolyak or wild animal even when you sip on beer. Heck you can even macro this and both your hands can be on something else.
2) why do you want to get yourself revealed when you got a whole bunch of condition to cleanse say from a condi engi? And you dps is probably better than a BM ranger without pets even if you are only doing CnD or smoke+leap attack every 3.x secs. (shrug)
3) even for a noob like you 2 cleanse in every 4 secs and occasionally revealing yourself, you got a pretty decent condition removal there. And that’s exactly the point of my argument against ‘Thief lacks condition removal’.
3)

any class is good for pve/map completion. ele moves faster could be helpful when completing maps tho.

Atherakhia.4086:

noobftw.9654:

Rising Dusk.2408:

This thread, instead, should be titled:

Not a Thief? Whine About Them

I am a thief. I play a incredible cheap one wvw roamer for a long time. I also play a dd ele roamer, Condi engi Zerg fighter, a BM ranger roamer and other all 8 profs. I started as a thief and spent 5 month exclusively on her. It’s not until any thief player start to main other prof so they can admit thief is ridiculously op in wvw roaming. What make the community more frustrated is while anet nerfs down the pillar mechanism of other profs such as cantrip for ele and pet for ranger, it intends to keep the most abused stealth where it is while adding more mobility to the class. It’s funny 1 year after launch the CnD on wall still works while rangers still don’t have a single reliable counter to immobilize.

Oh , but let me be clear, thief is not op in pvp and wvw Zerg fight.

What’s funny is I can say the exact opposite about Rangers, Eles, and Mesmers as I consider each to be far more faceroll than the Thief is and no less powerful in roaming scenarios.

Stealth is very clearly a powerful mechanic. Probably the most powerful skill for roaming in general. But do I consider the Thief to be on a different playing field than half the other classes in the game? Absolutely not. Or at least not before this patch as I haven’t played anything but my Thief since the last patch.

I do feel that the implemenetation of the thief class in this game is the worst implementation of the thief/rogue/assassin type class I’ve ever seen in any MMO, but I don’t consider stealth in general to be overpowered. What’s overpowered is the initiative system behind it. But I’m also not an idiot… I know that the Thief class would be completely unplayable if the system was adjusted and I have such a low opinion of ANet that I don’t think they’ll be able to change it and rebalance the class to the point where it would even be playable for at least 6 months.

But yea, I’m sorry… if you play an Elementalist, Mesmer, Guardian, or Ranger you really shouldn’t be in this thread complaining about anything because even though stealth is very powerful, the thief class as a whole is no better or worse off than the above. And if we talk about class vs class comparisons and not just roaming in general, I’d add Warriors and Necromancers to the list as well.

If class A beats thief so class > thief? Again, a thief doesn’t need to win a single duel to be the most OP class in wvw roaming.
It boils down to which game you want to play and what do you want to do in that game. GW2 is really 3 different games in one, pve, pvp and wvw. You can not just generally say some mechanism is not op or op. You gotta be specific to the context. Lets say if you have a skill that grants you perma invulnerability but in the meantime you can not do anything and lose all your dps and mob aggro. Is it op in pve? not really since the goal of pve is to kill the mobs , and kill em fast. But it breaks the game in pvp (if it caps) and wvw. Fortunately there is not such thing as perma invulnerable, But there is perma stealth. I will be quiet if perma stealth is hard to achieve, but the thing is it’s incredible easy. You can even get perma stealth from stationary targets at critical location (such as enemy keeps). It really doesn’t take even a first-grader to think of the stuffs you can do with that in wvw.

yes and no.

There are conceptually pvp as in player vs player, but it’s vastly different from pvp as in spvp or tourny. The fact is the less spvp type of dueling the server has, the better. In a most organized server, only two types of players exist, zerglings and thief roamers.

It seems like anet wants to make spvp esport quality. But until there is a good replacement for perma stealth, no one is ever gonna watch a game that one player just CnD Cnd or 6222 6222 forever.