Guild Wars 2

Cygnus.6903:

Longtime hoelbrak user. Funny how it used to be that hoelbrak was the offensive version of melandru, now it’s the defensive version of strength.

Yea the runes might duration was buffed I think people just focus on the might stacking of strength when the difference is tiny. I used both sets pre-patch thought they where both great back then(when they finally fixed strength runes after 1.5 years).

My apologies for the counter comment I removed that part of my post.

Sample size is to small still but I think all classes have a place with Necromancers on the outside looking in to find a place now.

Just looking at ToL EU mesmer must work just that NA teams might not be trying them atm but look at TCG’s results and see how well it works.

Arken.3725:

Harbinger.8637:

Selfless Daring is one of the few skills that scales very well with healing power.

I love many don’t read that i’m coming from an spvp PoV where Selfless Daring got nerfed significantly. Revolving ones build around this trait is also mindless in the fact that you’re promoting random dodges in the hopes that it keeps your health up.

Promotion doesn’t mean you have to do it, especially for a trait is a master minor you have to take anyway if you went 4 in honor.

Not a Guardian expert by any stretch but that is the risk/reward. Do I blow a dodge for healing or do I save it to avoid the attack. If nobody is fighting me I can dodge to heal up incase I take damage I didn’t see coming.

EU winner won with a Mesmer.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2471ry/tourney_of_legends_tcg_builds/

Heard some people wondering what the team comp/builds were for the winners of the European TOL, so I went through the vod, and scribbled down what I saw in their games vs CarCrash.

Helseth – Mesmer http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQJAWRlknpWtlpxUNcrNipxg6yObOSGQDlMkxB-TJBFwAl2fYxlAoaZAAPBAA

Denshee – Elementalist http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhcMKc25wxBd0AiAB5ukqRBlfHTB-TJhIwAAOBAX2f47DAQYZAA

Rom – Warrior http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAT3cjMdUFahHmhwJaghgC9KUCxgpAQ9ZE7dBA-TpBFwAIOCAOuAAl2fwaZgFPAAAHEAA (sometimes axe/sword, sometimes axe/shield, he alters the build).

Sizer – Thief http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAsYVl0MpwpVOx7J8PNBNB5dY+SZ0KAdfko0XA-TZBFwACeAAl2fYxRAoaZAAnCAA

Tage – Guardian http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNApeWlsApVo1CxeI8DNhDBldKq/9xuCd4DXFAA-TJBHwALLDA4JA0b/hBnCAA

An interesting thing to note, at least for me, the winning team did not use spirit rangers, condi engineers, minionmancers, or hambow warriors; all of which are generally thought of (at least when I play and read the forums) as cheese or lame builds.

I don’t think it says anything just based off either it means there are possibilities for more changes. Mesmer shatters would be effective to knock might stacks off opponents you can build the mesmer to rip boons that’s another possibility.

Need more time and tournaments to get a really good assessment of every class maybe except Guardian.

0/2/0/6/6 for mobility or 0/0/4/4/6 if you want to try and frontline with the warriors and guardians, melandru runes for beef or hoelbrak for damage. The condi reduction is important so you can stay moving while mixing it up.

Possible 0/0/6/4/4 might be good also. Just look to earth and water for survivability then move points around those.

Rom.4536:

To be frank, it is a reason why us in TCG does not run double hambow. 1, it is cheesy. But 2, it is not OP. It is surely counterable. I read a few comments here about “because that class or spec didnt reach finals obviously it needs buff or what not” or “look at final teams obviously WAR needs nerf”.

I bet they could have pracced with only 1 WAR also and probably hit the finals anyways.

People seem to be so harsh at judging a mere 10days since a huge patch that made a lot of impact on both gameplay such as theorycraft.

I can tell you already that I didnt see anybody using the most “OP” things yet on ToL NA. We The Civilized Gentlemen didnt find our complete perfected line-up with builds yet. We already noticed a lot of other things that we didnt even use in the EU ToL just a few days after.

I’m simply stating, stop being so drastic in judgement and basing all of your ideas off of this ToL in NA. Some talk about buffs and nerfs like thats the answer to your issues. Its fun how people just cant stand maybe not being as superior as you they think they are. Simply train with mates and become better instead of shoving the NERF-towel into the winners face.

Best post in this thread!

Since my opinion is that this is the best post we should discuss if this is “OP” . It’s possible that this post needs to be nerfed and brought in line with other posts because there must not be counters since it’s obviously the best post.

Seriously not everything needs to nerfed because it appears wrong. The key word is appears!

This really isn’t news imo thief has never been a particularly difficult class to fight when your a D/D Ele except maybe P/D power or P/D condi thieves. You have aoe they use stealth to get close, you lay aoe they take damage even in stealth.

The fight is different if your a S/x Ele or D/F.

P/D helps alot against the Ele even in power build because you can range kite. Just be ready for the burning speed lightning flash combo. It’s not instant but quick.

Other then that S/D does well but D/D ele always did well against thief because of the AOE like Reikou said same concept with med guardians but it’s more AOE.

The above is just a copy and paste of the thread I made on the Ele forums as I like to post different build ideas just to consider even if I might not run that setup.

The might stacking difference between the 2 runes is very minor and that is what many people first talk about when they bring up strength runes the might stacking and not so much the damage modifier.

Hoelbrak is a good rune it isn’t strength but it’s good in a different way.

This is a copy and paste of something I put together on the Ele forums just to show the difference between Strength and Hoelbrak.

This is WvW with the -40% food to go with it.

So there has been some talk about Strength Runes they are expensive right now mostly because they are good in WvW and PvE. Hoelbrak is a very very good option I wouldn’t say it’s worse then Strength but it’s different. Against a condition build you could potentially put on more pressure since you could stay on the enemy longer before being forced to back off.

First lets look at might stacking effectiveness

• Sigil of battle w/ Hoelbrak+30 arcana = 32 seconds of might
• Sigil of battle w/ Strength+30 arcana -= 35 seconds of might

Fire Field blast finisher(might from elemental attunement is the same)
15 seconds base

• Hoelbrak+30 arcana = 24 seconds of might
• Strenghth+30 arcana = 26 seconds of might

So lets look at 2 builds

Rune of Strength build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhcM6c2zwwBd0APAC5fv2JKQ5qJfC-TFCFABls/AWKBB4EA4kSqkUu4wDAIR1fUTPApA0TZE-w

This is a typical build you would see in WvW standard D/D setup.
2272 Power
30% crit chance pre fury,
2575 Armor
179 crit dmg

75% might duration
7% damage while under might

Here you would see battle sigil w/ air or strength or energy.

Now what if we a few sacrifices but also add the ability to deal with conditions

Hoelbrak build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhcM6c2zwwBd0APAC5fv2JKQ5qJfC-TVCFABAcCAuSJISKHcSJVSKRc4BAko6Pts/ga6BIFATKjA-w

2170 Power
31 Crit chance pre fury
2540 Armor
182 Crit damage

60% might duration
-60% condition duration

So the Effective Power difference in these 2 builds assuming 25 might stacks and 100% fury uptime.

Effective Power: 4727.77 Strength @ 25 stacks of might

Effective Power: 4321.99 for Hoelbrak @ 25 stacks of might

Both builds can stack 25 stacks of might Hoelbrak will have -60% condition duration. Assuming with food Food buff: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Lemongrass_Poultry_Soup

In WvW sacrificing some damage for condition management isn’t unheard of. Eles wouldn’t even put points into water for cleansing water or cleansing wave. We would just take the 3 water and be done with it.

Do you do less dps then strength? Yes but you do much better against conditions reducing their potential damage by 60%. Warriors are running -65% with melandru -98% to cripple chill and immobilize.

A Elementalist can get -93% cripple, chill, and immobilize with Hoelbrak runes sacrifice some water points go into Earth for Stone Splinters get geomancers freedom. Just something to think about if you are looking for possible points to move.

TL:DR So in summary will you hit less then Strength users? Yes, but you will be much stronger against condition builds, and soft cc of power builds by far. The immobilze from the mesmer ileap may wear off before he can even blurred frenzy the strength user might be forced to get hit by it.

This is all assuming with food Food buff: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Lemongrass_Poultry_Soup

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Abrilete.1439:

My problem with conditions is the combat log.
Seriously, as I don’t know all the skills of every profession and what conditions they apply many times I don’t know what killed me.

The combat log is unfortunately rather unhelpful for a lot of things. I’d love to see improvements showing condition damage ticks, hits on stealthed targets, etc.

If IIIRC the combat log USE to show your damage to someone stealth. I’m not sure when it changed though.

T raw.4658:

The ONLY reason ToL wasn’t swimming in Condi builds is because of 1 rune

Strength Runes

In fact the NA final was a complete snooze where 2 teams full of bunkers dukes it out.

Heck I’d even argue that the patch was still too fresh to have it included for this tournament. 2 warrior teams…..

You do know your basically saying that condition builds can’t keep up with the dps of a power build with Strength Runes?

Also…

Rune of the Aristocracy is a condition rune that gives the same might duration as runes of Strength.

The slowness of guardians are kind of the weakness of meditation builds but it is extremely strong. The speed runes or traveler helps just be on the look out for mobs I usually don’t have alot of issues roaming with my med build.

Also if sPvP wasn’t as affected by the ferocity change(it was because you still can’t get 30 critical damage from your ferocity tree) but the condition runes all where buffed like they where in WvW wouldn’t that mean it would be just as prevalent? Condi durations are up in sPvP, condi damage was buffed in sPvP, the amount of procs for condi sigils is up all from the patch while crit damage was nerfed in sPvP slightly.

There is no condi meta at the top of sPvP because teams are organized and there have been nerfs to condi builds like necro traits in previous patches.

When there are organized groups in WvW conditions are also not a problem that is why they aren’t used in GvG’s or organized guild raids in WvW. It’s just solo roaming small man havok players that usually complain about conditions in WvW.

DeceiverX.8361:

oZii.2864:

T raw.4658:

There is no explanation needed tbh

Well the whole condi meta argument is dead the Tournament of Legends EU and NA showed there is no condi meta. We know there is not one in PvE. So that leaves dueling/WvW roaming definitely not zergs.

If conditions met the criteria you say then all the teams in the ToL EU and NA would have ran condi obviously there is a counter to make it not worth going conditions. Despite the “easy” to play of conditions they aren’t being used in high level competitive play with rewards on the line. So maybe they are “easy” but not effective?

Anyway the condi threads are about to die lets make way for the new era of “nerf bunkers” threads along with “we need to nerf hambow again”.

This isn’t a good way of analyzing balance, though.

Balance should be considered at all skill levels and under all circumstances.

The condition meta is more prevalent in WvW because sPvP did not get affected by the ferocity change values, and there was always a pre-existing cap on critical damage which is approximately half of what it is in other game modes.

I’m sure balance is considered at all levels thats why they nerfed quickness and that was the reason they gave to the nerf of quickness. However, quickness isn’t something deeply built into every class. The condition meta in WvW isn’t prevalent unless your a dueler or roamer and there are still power builds and condtion builds that roam not exclusive to conditions for roaming.

Organized Zergs that are taking objectives in WvW, aren’t stacking condis they are clearing them rapidly, they are running guards and warriors, it’s basically what the TOL showed x10. GvG’s(not supported gametype) is direct damage. Dueling is well dueling(not supported) and the game isn’t balanced around that because if it was then there wouldn’t be a need to have teammates or use teamwork you could self sustain against any threat.

I roam and duel alot but I realize how the game is balanced. Do I get frustrated at certain builds? Sure depends on what I’m playing the PU mesmer frustrates my Elementalist but I eat them for breakfast on my Meditation Guardian. I don’t think my D/D elementalist should be balanced like my Meditation Guardian because they don’t have the same strengths and weaknesses and I’m ok with that and it would be boring if my Ele played like my Guard. Otherwise I would pick 1 class play just that because it can beat everything.

T raw.4658:

There is no explanation needed tbh

Well the whole condi meta argument is dead the Tournament of Legends EU and NA showed there is no condi meta. We know there is not one in PvE. So that leaves hotjoins/dueling/WvW roaming definitely not zergs.

If conditions met the criteria you say then all the teams in the ToL EU and NA would have ran condi obviously there is a counter to make it not worth going conditions. Despite the “easy” to play of conditions they aren’t being used in high level competitive play with rewards on the line. So maybe they are “easy” but not effective?

Anyway the condi threads are about to die lets make way for the new era of “nerf bunkers” threads along with “we need to nerf hambow again”.

@ P Fun Daddy Necro staff is just as good in a power build as it is in a condition build. Check the necro forums look at Leeto V’s post should be on the first page with alot of views for an example of power necro with staff. There is trait for an extra 10% damage for staff marks because staff can do good damage as direct. There aren’t alot of weapons in GW2 that are great as a condi weapon but horrendous in a power build. Mesmer Scepter confusion images does more damage then blurred frenzy as an example and the auto attack while slow and telegraphed does comparable damage to sword auto attack except for the last hit with sword.

Anyway the whole condition argument is kind of moot more evidence by the recent TOL tournaments in EU and NA supporting that conditions are indeed fine unless your on some dueling server, in the obsidian sanctum dueling or solo roaming looking for 1vXs against power builds, or hotjoining.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Me and my guild were messing around with a burst comp and we had some success vs bunker comps. We were mostly messing around but when we got serious we won most of our games. I was running what I’m calling The Bunker Buster which is essentially a new version of what Warriors ran at the start of the game. You can only use the big burst once every minute but it can instantly kill squishy targets and get bunkers down to below 25%. We also had a Meditation guard and a Warrior running something similar to me.

So long as we were smart with our rotations 2 of us were able to blow up any tough target very quickly. It’s not an easy team to run and you probably noticed my build is really vulnerable after the initial burst but I could see running a support Ele and a bunker guard with it being really solid. Of course I have no idea how this would work at “high level” play.

Soo are you still thinking about quitting? Are warriors still in a bad place in this “Condi-Meta”? Just looking for hyperbolic advice I just see people talking about double War comps so I am confused by your previous expert warrior perspective.

Domzz.1260:

So you would say — current state of game..
WvW / PvP: Classes who maximize conditions (E.G. engineer, necro, thief)
PvE: Classes who maximize damage output (E.G. warrior, ranger, ele)

Well WvW is about objectives so you would usually associate that with Zerging so that would be Direct Damage/Power.

Roaming/Dueling in WvW is a mix of power and direct damage but alot of people complain about conditions it all depends on the person and server density of their opponent on how often you see condi builds.

WvW is the mix bagged because it’s a sandbox with an objective. So many people look at balanced based on what they find fun and do the most and not the overall picture of the game. Warriors, Guardians, and Thieves are probably the class I see the most but those are also good at roaming too (meditation guard or dps shouts to a lesser extent).

PvE is all about direct damage and dps.

Dee Jay.2460:

Lopez.7369:

And there are barely any condition builds in any of the teams.

Condition meta indeed.

Maybe you should watch the Tournament of Legends then because I see nothing but…

You obviously aren’t paying close enough attention to the matches the 2 most complained about condition classes are Engi and Necro with Necro barely even being used the Engi’s are running either power or condi and not everyone is using Engi’s.

There might be a hybrid ranger, maybe a engi but that is 1 person per team alot of the engi’s are running power nade builds. So you have 10 total players and MAYBE 2 condition builds.

This is for EU and NA not sure what your watching.

Yes the power builds get conditions on their skills but if a Warrior is guilty of being Condi with a bow then a Ele is guilty of being condi for using Fire attunement.

It depends on your game mode you look at this forum you see condition whining all the time despite that condi builds aren’t used in PvE and as evidence by the EU and NA Tournament of Legends there isn’t much condi setups being used in s/tPvP either at least at the top level.

So that leaves WvW where zerging is still direct damage, solo roaming is a mix with people complaining about conditions because they can’t 1vX when a condi build is around and dueling who’s group you can put with solo roaming.

So glad the ToL showed there is no condi meta at top level play, and that most of these balance whines against conditions are WvW solo roamers, duelers, and spvp duel server players riding the coattail of what USE to be the tPvP meta.

As soon as the condi meta hit s/tPvP back in the day WvW roamers and duelers jumped on condi meta quickly now they have to stand on their own argument about balance in their “user-generated” activities that the game isn’t balanced around.

jlneedham.8219:

K thanks for the clarification. I normally don’t run condi builds. I think I’ve opted for more condition damage stat over duration. Like I said with so many sources for burns it’s incredibly easy to apply plus I rather like having 2100 condi damage before sigil stacks.

Usually the sweet spot is around 70% duration for condition engi. You want them to be meaning full with warriors running reduction and melandru they will kite to heal but if your burns are ticking they can’t heal that damage back.

I experienced this bug today also so I want to bump this. Sometimes it just stops working even if you don’t die its odd behavior but definitely a bug.

Carighan.6758:

So wait, now we have conditions being sub-par in PvE, WvW and the tournament? And people want them nerfed? As in, instead of buffed?

Obviously you forgot Doolz, Dooling Server, and Solo Roaming in WvW balance. Core gameplay features, as advertised by GW2 commercials, the hard copy box, the digital edition, the Heroic Edition, and Anet.

Carpboy.7145:

The thing is a 0/10/0/30/30 already has tons of condi clear, and if you take ether renewal your almost immune to them. I think orrian truffle & meat stew is actually an awesome food for d/d eles (~10sec of might on dodge)

That is a good food but I think it’s overkill if your going to run either strength or hoelbrak. The wiki says its 5 seconds of might. I havent used that food in a long time so I don’t remember. Hoelbrak setup isn’t for condition clearing it’s for the conditions you can’t clear because of cooldowns or the ones you didn’t dodge.

Don’t sweat it Holy some of it is just critique I don’t know if I ever actually seen Pyro bash anyone he just gives his opinion bluntly with no sugar. Hotjoin videos don’t get much love anywhere on the forums so that and it’s a PU build. Those 2 points just don’t help on the forums.

dancingmonkey.4902:

oZii.2864:

If every team in a tourney brings 1 engineer that doesn’t make it condition wars.

Especially if 18 out of 21 were running power variant builds.

Yea I’m watching a TOL NA right now and I just don’t see this condition wars that people are talking about. TOL EU was the same NOT condition heavy.

I think all these claims stem from old meta’s, hot joins where you can’t pick your team, duels because this game is balanced around duels, and I can’t 1vX if there is a condition build around because the game is also balanced around 1vX.

If conditions where the end all be all these TOL matches would show it. It’s totally the opposite it’s mostly power/direct damage.

Anti-condition camp you lost this battle. The more tournaments that happen like TOL the less leg you have to stand on with a already weak argument. Spam the forums make 50 threads perception vs reality and no GW2 is not balanced around 1v1’s sorry to disappoint.

Seriously if it was so easy to bring a Condi Engi to auto win by killing the other teams Thief or Warrior teams would do that. That’s not whats happening instead they are bringing Power Engi’s obviously there is a reason for it.

I liked the way immobilize use to work other then that I think CC is fine.

They must be 1v1 duel server champs. Hoopa dismiss NA competitive scene when the EU TOL Winner wasn’t even a condition team. The tournament wasn’t even condition heavy.

There was a post with a break down by class and mesmer and ele and necromancer where the lowest represented classes, engineer where middle of the pack in representation. Guardian and Warriors where the most popular.

If every team in a tourney brings 1 engineer that doesn’t make it condition wars.

Prysin.8542:

well, thats my point… warrior CC outside hammer is really really really really bad….
Necro has chill and fear spam, but thats about it…

Then again, i play a ranger. CC is one of the few things no other profession comes close to competing with me at.

Oh I thought you where joking.

Warrior has good CC with mace/sword, Sword provides good CC,

Necro has cripple with scepter and its on a low short CD, chill is powerful and nobody does chill as good as a necro then add in fear, Also axe has cripple, dagger with a long immobilze, cripple in melee with warhorn and a Daze from warhorn(wonky to land but it’s strong).

Prysin.8542:

oZii.2864:

Sounds like your friend isn’t familiar with engineers, warriors, necros, or any class with cripple. Was he a thief?

warrior and necro has cripple?

Very little cripple, and it’s only available in very few viable builds that are only support focused.

Sounds like your friend isn’t familiar with engineers, warriors, necros, or any class with cripple. Was he a thief?

BlackBeard.2873:

Hoelbrak is a very good rune-set choice for D/D eles who want to build for a bruiser/attrition playstyle. I would just say, however, that usually getting into a battle of attrition with a condi class will end up with a loss. Against condi-tanks, your best chance is to burst them and the fight fast before they can weigh you down with their millions of extra-condi procs and overwhelm you.

I think, as with many things, any offensive play-style gains more from going more offensive and letting how you play cover up the weaknesses, as opposed to diluting your build and reducing your strengths in order to shore up your weaknesses.

This is how you fight a condition class!!! I tell people all the time that is what the condi class want’s you to do. Great comment here BB.

Hoelbrak isn’t going to a big drop in damage from strength in PvP and is good alternative if you don’t want to spend the gold on strength.

a t s e.9614:

It still funny to see people who think PU is balanced.

A) go to a dueling server
B) say you are a PU mesmer
C) see how many people will fight you

Yea nobody . You think you’re good using PU? lol this fail trait will get nerfed once they start going a bit seriously into dueling. Enjoy while it lasts.

TCG that just Won the EU TOL brings up dueling and good points in the video from Ready Up yesterday. Even the TOP Teams realize that the game isn’t about dueling and 1v1’s. Your PU Mesmer even comes up in the conversation.

Dueling helps with your mechanics and learning other classes but you will not beat everything. Honestly you look rather foolish because you really think something is broken because of 1v1’s and dueling servers. If your class could beat everything then there would be no need for support or teammates at all. Everyone would be self-sufficient which is what most duelers want to only have to worry about themselves. Why do I need the Guardians Shouts I should be able to handle all the conditions myself. That’s the kind of thing many Roamers/Duelers focus on. Remove the team aspect give me self sustain and self containment.

Fighting Games don’t even have every character balanced so that they can win 50% of their fights against the other characters given equal skill. A tier list always develops for every fighting game since the beginning of time and that’s a genre designed around 1v1’s.

T raw.4658:

Terrahero.9358:

T raw.4658:

Had to edit that for you to bring it more inline with what’s really happening in the game and what this thread is about.

Lot’s of players prefer less faceroll gameplay of AoE condi spam or just flat out condi spam.

Let’s put skill back in the game mmkay?

Yes, kitten condition spam, more power-spam!

Or did you really think power-damage was this epitome of skill? Because its really not. Its even more spammy then conditions.

Ok what takes more skill

Condi Engi or Power?
Condi Necro or Power?
Condi Thief or Power?
Condi Ranger or Power?
Condi Warrior or Power?

The only classes Condi isn’t always the easiest is Ele and Guard, but we haven’t seen any viable builds hit the public yet tho

What is your definition of skill in GW2? That is what has to be determined first.

By the looks of it you would say skill is killing people with direct damage instead of conditions and for you that’s all that’s all you need to determine skill.

Really you would need ranking system, skilled opponents, tournaments results. Not “I Feelz” so it is determined by my own experience that this is skill. Need game mode specifics definitely not Doolz. So conquest where most top players play Power. So the game is balanced then right? K

It also looks like you assume people play conditions have never touched a power build on this game.

Soldiers knights or cav/valk

It has to be a full set of 1 type? Soldiers

Mbelch.9028:

I personally don’t like using the build with -60% with condi duration, only because you’re factoring in food.. And food can be applied to anything. Because even with strength, you have that jump in EP and still have 40% condi dura (which is arguably more effective). So the question really is where do you want to put a 20% modifier. To stats (basically) or -condi.

It’ll come down to flavor.

(I don’t use either rune but have tested both.)

Not necessarily I find the food lackluster on it’s own that’s my opinion.

You have 1 stack of bleed for 10 seconds, you reduce the bleed to 6 seconds with just food.

Holebrak reduces that bleed to to 4 seconds. If the bleed is 100 damage that’s 200 hp difference you saved. Now if that was 8 stacks of bleed the hoelbrak setup has 1600 more HP then you do this gap becomes larger the more damaging conditions you have on you.

Say your fighting a build with 1500 condition damage

7 second Burn is 703
10 stacks @ 5 seconds Bleed is 118
9 second poison 230

So you just have on food you would take: 7502 damage or 46% HP of a 16k Ele

Now same scenario but you have hoelbrak and the food: 5389 or 33% HP of a 16k Ele.

Hoelbrak comes out on top even further the less points you put into water. If you only want to go 1-3 points in water and say move to 4 fire or 6 Air the damage difference will be much less.

For food I always factor in food into my build I never factor guard stacks or assume full bloodlusts but food is always factored in.

Hvaran.6327:

perplx is an easy OP mode what no skill engis playing.

Class is not easy to play good.

Perplexity is fine if the person died because you interrupted them then thats their fault. You would have interrupted them anyway if you run shield off-hand here you get some confusion with it. When you don’t have a “proc” ticking on your enemy they are all equal damage except undead and scavenging have the edge there.

If skill was based on runes that do the least for you then the “skilled engis” would all run carrion orbs or no runes at all.

LLaG.9218:

Srly this cheesy build just apply tons of kitten and run away till im out of condi cleanse.

It’s a pattern they open with a condition spike. Usually steal with a shadow strike (where they phase away and you have torment).

Or they will cloak and dagger then come out of stealth with sneak attack. The spike is when you are hit with the confusion from steal (trait) or interrupted by a steal and have confusion(perplexity). That is the part when you want to cleanse asap. They will start to move toward you for a cnd or shadow strike probably cnd to wipe your condis off. You want to stay away or knock them back, if they do stealth then prepare shield 4 for reflect.

Its a hard fight but doable it’s difficult just because they have range to match your range. If it was a fight where you both stay there and shoot each other you will win because you have burning but they have better condition removal if they can get in stealth.

Best solution for all thieves is a flame thrower because of shadow refuge they can get a soft reset to heal up hoping you blow cooldown especially your heal. Flamethrowers knockback is so good. I almost always knock them out of it go in with the auto attack like your channeling hit FT3 and it will cancel the auto and do the knockback the auto is just bait the dodge in refuge smart thieves will dodge inside if you move toward it.

Like forest said pry bar is good for confusion because they spam 1 alot.

Caom.9251:

I thought hoelbrak runes only reduced condition duration by 20%.

Do you mind if I ask where you got that 60% condition duration decrease from?

Sorry with food I assume with food thats the one thing about – duration runes is that without the food the decrease isn’t substantial. So -40% condition duration food and -20% condition duration with hoelbrak runes.

Both build links are using standard food choices but added it to the OP for those that don’t know.

This is a WvW focused post

So there has been some talk about Strength Runes they are expensive right now mostly because they are good in WvW and PvE. Hoelbrak is a very very good option I wouldn’t say it’s worse then Strength but it’s different. Against a condition build you could potentially put on more pressure since you could stay on the enemy longer before being forced to back off.

First lets look at might stacking effectiveness

• Sigil of battle w/ Hoelbrak+30 arcana = 32 seconds of might
• Sigil of battle w/ Strength+30 arcana -= 35 seconds of might

Fire Field blast finisher(might from elemental attunement is the same)
15 seconds base

• Hoelbrak+30 arcana = 24 seconds of might
• Strenghth+30 arcana = 26 seconds of might

So lets look at 2 builds

Rune of Strength build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhcM6c2zwwBd0APAC5fv2JKQ5qJfC-TFCFABls/AWKBB4EA4kSqkUu4wDAIR1fUTPApA0TZE-w

This is a typical build you would see in WvW standard D/D setup.
2272 Power
30% crit chance pre fury,
2575 Armor
179 crit dmg

75% might duration
7% damage while under might

Here you would see battle sigil w/ air or strength or energy.

Now what if we a few sacrifices but also add the ability to deal with conditions

Hoelbrak build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhcM6c2zwwBd0APAC5fv2JKQ5qJfC-TVCFABAcCAuSJISKHcSJVSKRc4BAko6Pts/ga6BIFATKjA-w

2170 Power
31 Crit chance pre fury
2540 Armor
182 Crit damage

60% might duration
-60% condition duration

So the Effective Power difference in these 2 builds assuming 25 might stacks and 100% fury uptime.

Effective Power: 4727.77 Strength @ 25 stacks of might

Effective Power: 4321.99 for Hoelbrak @ 25 stacks of might

Both builds can stack 25 stacks of might Hoelbrak will have -60% condition duration. Assuming with food Food buff: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Lemongrass_Poultry_Soup

In WvW sacrificing some damage for condition management isn’t unheard of. Eles wouldn’t even put points into water for cleansing water or cleansing wave. We would just take the 3 water and be done with it.

Do you do less dps then strength? Yes but you do much better against conditions reducing their potential damage by 60%. Warriors are running -65% with melandru -98% to cripple chill and immobilize.

A Elementalist can get -93% cripple, chill, and immobilize with strength runes sacrifice some water points go into Earth for Stone Splinters get geomancers freedom. Just something to think about if you are looking for possible points to move.

TL:DR So in summary will you hit less then Strength users? Yes, but you will be much stronger against condition builds, and soft cc of power builds by far. The immobilze from the mesmer ileap may wear off before he can even blurred frenzy the strength user might be forced to get hit by it.

This is all assuming with food Food buff: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Lemongrass_Poultry_Soup

People in WvW will fight you in your bombs even if you had a big sign that said “Please fight in my bombs while I block”.

It’s ignorance and people don’t know how to fight engineers, people are impatient and get tunnel vision. That’s all it is and you probably are taking advantage of players blood thirst.

I have found that majority of the time no matter what you play you can beat most people if you just slow down and fight with patience. Most people fight at 100 mph as if they have to get everything out as fast as possible when slowing down is usually better.

See another enemy player walk towards them press no buttons watch them attempt a attack then dodge roll immediately after or vice versa and you didn’t press a single button except “W”.

Many people in WvW are predictable that Pistol whip thief thinks your slow and will trying hitting him during his obvious evade frames, the S/D thief wants you to be mesmerized by his flipping, flanking strike and porting so you waste skills even though he is going to come to you 9/10 anyway.

The warrior expects you to to dump condis during his zerker stance, he is also going to attack you with everything he has while its up. If he didn’t do enough damage he is prepared to run/kite.

The mesmer will 9/10 dodge roll after blurred frenzy, dodge roll after iZerker is summoned, attempt iLeap after magic bullet, etc…..

This isn’t everyone but many people in WvW are predictable engineers adapt well especially if you are familair with the other classes and builds. Half the time you can just run around and people will just go through as you lay bombs down and die.

It doesn’t matter the runes tbh. I use to run perplexity, I’ve used grenth, balthazar, undead since the patch and it’s the same deal. When you come across a enemy you should assume he is running the “best” setup. Perplexity is considered “cheese” for engi so assume the engi is running perplexity, just like when you see a warrior using condition food you should assume he is running S/S + ? usually a Bow, not GS + Mace/Axe.

Same thing you would do for a engineer you see a rifle engi you don’t assume condi once you identify weapons/food you should have a good idea what your fighting.

I been tweaking my Guardian build again it’s meditation

2,0,6,6,0 it has 700 healing power thanks to full zealots armor and weapons, trinkets are mix of precision main stat rings, zerker, still fiddling with 1 trinket. I guess you can say I slightly cheat on toughness since I run strength in numbers to get me close to 2.9k.

So far I feel it’s pretty strong I am wondering about sustain options particularly Sigil of Blood, Omnomberry Ghosts, or Mango pie.

I know sigil of blood is a dps option to go with life steal and I currently sit at 50% crit chance do any guards feel that Air or another sigil is much better to take? I have energy on both sets so that is taken care of.

Omnombery Ghosts/Pie vs Mango Pie? This one I struggle with Mango has the advantage of when it’s kiting time your getting your heals you don’t need to connect with anything and the extra vitality helps against conditions.

Potentially Omnomberry Ghosts blow Mango Pie out of the water.

I looked at sigil of water or renewal but they just don’t compare to blood for some outside healing. What are you guys running out there and what do you like?

I would take roll to remove confusion and drop burning or chill for stop drop and roll. If you add all 3 of those then you effectively given dodge roll the ability to remove the 3 worst condis a ele can have.

Berengar.6951:

For WvW I really like Scavenger Runes, the lifesteals help your sustain quite a bit and add damage. Undead are also an option, but I think the lifesteals are much better than the small toughness boost.

If you prefer might stacking Runes of the Noble (I think they got renamed, the ones that give might duration and might on heal +condi damage) are very good.

With the improved proc chance, Nightmare runes are also a possibility.

Perplexity works as well, but I think they’re cheese.

I never been a fan of scavenging 975 life steal after you heal and a chance to proc after your hit then attack is so low not saying it should be more of a life steal. It’s just that I think people go scavenging mostly because of the 7% conversion.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Cygnus.6903:

dancingmonkey.4902:

@Cygnus
Then why did you make an effort to differentiate what you feel power vs condition builds can do on a profession if it is off topic?

Because conditions are easier to play, and that is on topic.

How so? I would like a detailed explanation on this if you can. Conditions still require the same button press to act, and the same need to land the skill to apply them, that a direct damage skill does. Only the direct damage skill has the advantage of being instantly applied. The condition attack runs the risk of being cleansed and negated fully or only applying half damage in the case of something like melandru+lemongrass comb. With those facts in mind, I find it diffucult to see merit in your claim.

In the scope of skill, neither power or condition damage is more or less conducive to skill then the other as a whole. Personally I feel specific builds and the weapons/utilities in said build much more skill related then a specif damage type. As well, I feel the skill level varies with in a profession, based on the type of build set up.

Conditions are higher damage per attack (not second, don’t get confused there), which puts greater pressure on enemies, have greater access to control condis, and are somewhat easier to land in general (read: marks are really, really easy to land, being essentially non-projectile 1200-range AoEs with very similar appearances to each other that can additionally be unblockable, and hit instantly after cast).

Your necro marks example isn’t exclusive to conditions builds. Power necros can use staff very well Leeto V has good videos showing what staff does in a power build and still gets good use of the conditions it applies.

I would say that in general power builds benefit better from “extra” damage they get from conditions then condition builds get from any little bit of power they have.

@Sabull It is black box theorycrafting the creator stated it as such I just didn’t quote it. I assume most people read the actual link, he stated it isn’t a end all be all just some interesting observations post patch comparing full armor and not mix and match. No need to apologize I understand your point.

Overkillengine.6084:

It absolutely has worth; because your argument subscribes to the fallacy that since perfect balance does not exist, there should be no attempt at analysis to determine why certain runes are outliers and potentially figure out what can be done to bring them in line with or at least closer to the baseline of the other runes.

Which is inane. Handle it.

Your argument assumes that all anyone wants to do is kill something as fast as possible which is not the case. Sure in PvE but in PvP Lyssa runes was a prime example of utility over damage.

In PvE you might as well assume full buffs so 25 stacks of might. Then the difference is the damage modifier so the gap isn’t that big if you assume 25 stacks of might.

Ogre use to be better then old strength even when it had it’s 5% modifier ogre was still better with it’s 4% but ferocity change hurt it.

Rune of Privateer summon a Parrot how is the parrot suppose to compete with the damage of raw stats unless you make the parrot OP(I’ve heard it hits hard though). It would need to attack often, not die easily, and then it’s ranged also so it has an advantage. Still how is a parrot suppose to be balanced against 7% damage?

There are more examples but create a death nova when down how is that suppose to complete with even a 2% damage modifier. Some runes though they are bad from a DPS standpoint exist for utility and niche uses.

Really what is needed is a separate thread with Rune Rework suggestions for bad runes.

There still will be a top dps rune no matter what condition damage runes are actually pretty good imo now. The direct damage runes need some love and support/healing runes need love.

If I wanted to be the best healer I could the choice is easy it’s monk and it gives me +25% healing effectiveness out going it’s not a selfish rune but it is the best healing rune in the game by far. We aren’t trying to nerf that though because it’s healing I guess. It’s ok to have a best power rune, best precision rune, best condition rune, etc… if all you focus on is dps.

While I agree the runes are fine. You could have wrote your opinion in the other thread. This isn’t even that big a issue tbh. I doubt they change these.

Eviscera.9703:

A necro puts signet of spite or corrupt boon on you, an engi that spams grenades and bombs on the point, P/D thiefs with permanents torment and kittenloads of confusion and condi mesmers with perma stealthing with every condition in the game.

Are these fun mechanics?

Fun is subjective so you should ask yourself unless your taking a poll or something.

Is driving at 200 MPH fun? Depends on the person.
Is watching reality shows fun? Same answer.