Guild Wars 2

Cogbyrn.7283:

If SR is a non-issue in sPvP and PvE, and it’s only causing a problem in WvW roaming/1on1 fights, and WvW roaming/1on1s aren’t a real game mode, then why such staunch opposition to tweaking it?

What if a class had an ability that let them go invulnerable for 3 seconds, then ported them to the nearest uncontested Waypoint. While invulnerable, they did not contribute to point cap/decap.

It isn’t a problem in PvE because it either resets the fight or locks them out of the fight if they port out. In sPvP it isn’t a problem because they don’t contribute to the objective then get sent to the beginning. It would really only be annoyance in WvW Roaming/1on1, and in that arena, it would be the absolutely dumbest thing ever that everyone would hate.

Is that fact that an ability is used mostly to troll small-scale WvW encounters justification for its existence? Is that good game design?

It sounds like people are just so accustomed to having their easy out that they can’t accept potentially getting caught by those they are trying to troll.

Does it need to be tweaked at all just because a few people don’t like it? Nothing that I have seen in this game has been tweaked or changed simply because of 1v1 duels and WvW roaming why start now.

I don’t main thief but thief is my favorite class to kill because many builds have all the tools to escape yet you still kill them which is probably why warriors are my second favorite to kill depending on what I am playing though if I am on my Ele then warriors are frustrating.

So for me prey list favorites are

Thief – another Thief or PU Mesmer
Mesmer – Warriors
Ele – Thief
Guardian (meds) – most certainly Thieves
Warrior – Necromancers and Engineers
Engi – Warriors
Necromancer – PU mesmers and Thieves

killahmayne.9518:

^ This exactly

I hate when people say you can ignore PU Condi builds. You can’t. Scepter #3 is putting confusion on you, staff clones is putting a lot of bleeds and burns on you. Throw in a tormenting sigil in there. Maybe they are using perplexity runes. Maybe iDuelist is putting a ton more bleeds on you as well. And if you kill the clones that’s more bleeds on you, plus weakness. That’s any build that isnt a bunker build.

It’s probably better not to focus a PU Condi Mesmer, because of the torment on block, phase retreat, chaos armor, etc. And pretty how how tanky they are. But to say they do no damage if you aren’t attacking them is a myth. They might not have the highest DPS but the array of conditions that they can put on you is certainly deadly and over time the continuous pressure they can put on you because it is hard to pressure one of these mesmers wins out over time.

The best solution if possible is just to avoid the encounter altogether if you can, but in a group scenario you are seriously going to leave your servermates to die because there is a PU Condi Mesmer?

When they say ignore the PU mesmer people are saying you an engage in the fight and leave as long as you got a decent cleanse available to wipe any condis on you and the pu mesmer can’t really stop you especially the condition version.

Nobody used strength runes because they where bugged for 1.5 years. The warrior and ele could have done this before with a 2/2/2 build remember hgh engi? I don’t see a problem this was always possible just nobody did it on warrior and ele wasn’t viable but could always do this.

I tested these on my S/D 6 trick thief and steal daze is 1.33 seconds and tactical strike is 2.66 seconds. I recorded and timed. Tried with both no change. Runes seem to set the duraton. With sigil of para was 1.3 and 2.6. From my tests on my thief no stacking.

LordByron.8369:

No the issue is Killing something without being full dps.

Once you burnt RTL you are done.
Now achieving permaswiftness requires to put half of your skills on cooldown.

You can t say that fire 2 + rtl is mobility.
You can be outrun by a mesmer with no effort.

Zergs are not an issue.
If they follow you, you already won.

? I run 4 in air and the only thing I need for permaswiftness is shocking aura and swap to air. I don’t mind using the shocking aura since I use aeromancer alacrity and it’s ready every 15 seconds.

Personally I made a engineer since it I like to press alot of buttons to do something simple which is why I main elementalist. After going through all the other classes at 80 and making my last character engineer at 80 it is now my second favorite class.

Was a good video enjoyed.

LightningBlaze.4913:

Perpl was and still is known by the majority of players (including those that use it like me) as cheesy. Of course it is better… what cheesy aspect isn’t better? The primarily reason is because of its simplicity to spam confusion and of course do its high damage. Other professions can spam and even stack more easily. There will always be a few that support this rune while there are many others that don’t.

The interpretation of “spam” is highly exaggerated. A elementalist doesn’t spam confusion you are “spamming” fire and burning more then you are spamming confusion from these runes, You are “spamming” on swap sigils more then proccing these runes. Everyone has their own definition of cheese. Just running conditions can get you labeled cheese. If spam is doing something over and over again repeatedly for a positive effect you are spamming other things far more frequently then proccing the 6/6 on these runes every 15 seconds especially after your interrupts on on CD.

If we literally are examining spamming the 6/6 on these and you have everything off cd then you are hurting your damage output. Long interrupt cd’s so you save them to proc every 15 seconds would that be spam? Every 1-3 on a D/x has a cd of 15 secs or less besides shocking aura. On S/x phoenix and water trident only exceed 15 seconds on the 1-3. So using 1-3 on D/x and S/x is spam therefore can be classified as cheese since it aligns with spamming confusion on the 6/6 interrupt proc?

So it looks like anyone running D/x or S/x is cheese if they ever use the majority of the 1-3. So if they want to showcase skill only use skills that have cd’s over 15 seconds. It just comes off kind of silly when you frame cheese as proccing a rune set bonus that has a 15 second cd even more if you label is as spam.

I disagree that it is cheesy on any class it is just better on a warrior and engineer. If better = cheese then everyone is running cheese. Perplexity runes being better on classes that already have access to confusion is kind of a “no duh”.

Thats like saying balthazaar or flame legion runes are cheese on a Guardian and Elementalist.

There are many examples across gw2 where something is better on one class then the other we shouldn’t call it cheesy or OP even though that tends to be the norm.

Zephyrus.9680:

Try using either windborne dagger or zephyr’s boon. Only some warriors and SB thieves have higher mobility. Usually it’s only the troll warrior builds that are able to run.

Maybe I’m in the minority for preferring windborne dagger for mobility that will always be useful, over renewing stamina, for a few extra dodges that I probably won’t even use in a fight.

You can get by without renewing stamina using energy sigils, soothing disruption, or even zephyr’s focus.

LordByron.8369:

As i said a D/D ele needs to stay in opponent range.
D/D has what i’d call a small mobility burst.

After last runes change, ele mobility got a huge hit (to achieve permaswiftness we need to burn really important spells on long CD).

Guardian can just CC ele (lack of stability) or ignore it if not dps since won t be able to kill it.

Only exception could be a necro.

Assumes Guardian is bunker not dps. Guardian quick CC is from Scepter on a low CD, ring of warding is on a 40 sec cd, line of warding is on a 40 sec cd, that you can just lightning flash or pop armor of earth. A guardian can’t keep an elementalist off of them trust me.

Liewec.2896:

balance IS NOT subjective.
pre-nerf “Automated Response” for example which made an engie completely immune to conditions when they hit 25% hp was not subjectively OP. it meant the engie was practically unkillable for condition builds.

i’m not a fan of these thread that attempt to defend the dire state of balance by claiming that balance cannot be achieved,
i’m not sure how many MMOs you’ve played, but i’ve played plenty (including the first GW) which have had pretty great balance.
i’ll just add that of all of the MMOs i’ve played GW2 is both the least balanced and least updated of them all.

Like Carighan is pointing out in your “unbalanced situation” a direct damage (insert class) makes AR useless and far from as effective.

Let’s say we use a Elementalist running bolt to the heart getting the +20% damage on opponent at 33% health. He wants the engineer to reach 33% health in that “unbalanced situation”. In that situation specifically the 33% threshold or anything below favors the direct damage Elementalist not the engineer.

I look at that situation in favor of the elementalist. If I was on a condition necro then I would think otherwise. That is why it is subjective because for you AR is unbalanced because you are countered on your condition build. Some other person that knows only direct damage/burst is hardly impacted by AR therefore sees no problem with it’s impact on his fight with a engineer. So should it then be considered OP by your situation or his?

Achieving balance by community standards means the majority agrees the game is balanced(it should be 100% agreement). That isn’t going to happen even in the games you played previously if you named them I am sure someone would disagree that perfect balanced was achieved.

Scrye.9278:

Hello all,

I am unsure if a post like this has been made before or not, so I’m just creating a new topic.

I, along with my friends whom I play with, feel that conditions are overwhelming; not necessarily that they are overpowered, just that there is little counterplay to them.

We feel that conditions are in a nice place; however, there is no stat that mitigates condition damage/duration except for vitality…

A simple way for me to explain what I’m thinking is as follows:

For power builds to work, players invest in Power, Precision, Ferocity (3 stats)
Where as, condition builds focus on Condition Damage and Duration (2 stats)
> Condition builds only have 2 stats to worry about and can invest in another stat…

Countering a power build, players can invest in toughness, vitality, and/or healing power (3 stats)
For a condition build, players only have vitality and/or healing power to focus on (2 stats)
> There are 2 stats that work against a power build, while only vitality works to against conditions

I guess what I want to say is: when building for a condition build, there isn’t as many stats to invest in which allows for the build to focus on survivability; where as in a power build, players don’t have as many stats free to invest towards survivability because of how many stats they should invest offensively…

Please let me hear your thoughts

To simplistic a view, you take evades, blocks, blinds, invulns, heal, teleports, stun breaks to deal with incoming damage that can be both condition damage and direct since those help against both types. Then you take toughness, vitality, and healing power to go also deal with direct damage with vitality and healing overlapping defenses to condition damage. Then on top of that you have cleanses which specifically target conditions.

You can’t have everything in your build but that is where choice and sacrifice come in. If you are getting overwhelmed by conditions then you need to take more condition management same goes for direct damage.

TL&DR GW2 combat has many layers. You don’t stand there and chop at each other trading auto attacks otherwise everyone would be in Soldiers gear.

LordByron.8369:

oZii.2864:

LordByron.8369:

Check any competitive fighting games framelist and properties and you will see.
There is a reason why most mmorpgs are not esports.

They are different genre’s but fighting games have intended imbalances such as health and the character Tier list a few months after release is usually different.

Many FG has no health differences and Tiers are dictated by a matchup comparison.
Resulting in some 6:4 and really few 7:3 matchup.

If we had a 1vs1 matchup chart in gw2 we would see 9:1 everywhere.

Using SF4 as comparison won t work since is mostly execution oriented…
MvsCapcom was never a balanced game and infact had a huge scandal with some button mashers placing well in tournaments.

But where GW2 fails, is that there “reaction” and active playing has a too small role in the gameplay due to unbalanced skills, mechanics and traits.

I don’t think GW2 would get 9:1 you could can counter build pick just about everything in GW2 because of your customization ability in GW2 I think 9:1 is a far stretch. If you are in a 6:4 matchup on a fighting game usually that is what you are stuck with you can’t change the character to 8:2.

Many current fighting games have health differences MvC3, SF IV, SxT. If characters don’t have health weight in a fighting game then they have damage differences. The Jab/light punch on 1 character will do more damage then another in many cases with different frame data. 3D games like tekken and virtua fighter don’t have health weights but it isn’t universal across the genre.

Most competitive tournaments don’t lock you into one character if we use that in GW2 it would be allowing you to customize your build on the fly and chose a different profession entirely. If GW2 was a 1v1 focused game allowing the same customization I think you would see that it is balanced because you could counter pick your builds. If I was fighting a 1v1 vs a necro and can put on hoelbrak runes on the fly, take all my condition management traits say 6 water 6 arcana then I give myself a much greater chance in that fight. If the next fight was a thief direct damage thief then I would pull 2-4 points from water place them in Air for more damage since conditions aren’t as much of a threat and change to strength runes.

LordByron.8369:

Before patch everyone agreed ele was too easy to kite.

Suddenly we became mobile ._. with no change in mobility.
Interesting.

Ele is mobile only if he wants to flee with a fgs, that won t work btw to follow your target..

Depends on weapon set/build vs what you are fighting.

If Warrior using GS+ SW/X and Thief carrying Shadow step are the gold standards for mobility then a D/D ele is behind those surely and those 2 examples can out kite a Elementalist with D/D builds. If your fighting a guardian then it is reversed and you can’t keep the ele off of you or stop him from getting away.

TLDR: situation specific

QQing.3089:

The key is, how much crit is needed to constantly proc IP? I’ve never tested that myself ..

Constantly as in as soon as it is off cooldown? More then 20% is needed for that in most cases probably closer to 50% crit chance. If your shooting for it to proc within the 10 second icd window then you can go lower. That has alot of variables like kits, range, proximity to target, multi hit attack, groups, I rolled with 25 on my necro pre-patch dhummfire since I get fury going into DS. With my engi I roll 20% currently.

BlackDevil.9268:

You asume the thief has full endurance and/or initive points. I, however, disagree. Most of the times the moment a thief goes into SR he’s out of any survivability, so he can sit in stealth for a while to reset the fight a bit. It doesnt take 5 seconds for a mesmer to blink to the the SR and use iwave on it. Hell it only takes 0.5 escond to do that. It, however, takes a bit longer than 0.5 seconds to restore his endurance.

I disagree as been stated by others dodging inside of SR is something that thieves do often. With nothing to back this up except my own experience dodging in SR is something I do often even if there is no class nearby that can knock me out of it but it is a better safe then sorry move.

LordByron.8369:

Check any competitive fighting games framelist and properties and you will see.
There is a reason why most mmorpgs are not esports.

They are different genre’s but fighting games have intended imbalances such as health and the character Tier list a few months after release is usually different later in the games life cycle. This doesn’t even need to be from patches or balance changes just players discovering new tech. GW2 has been out for 2 years if you look at SF IV after 2 years what was effective at release changed after 2 years. Using SF IV as another example I don’t know of any iteration when Dan was considered S-Tier but you will find many iterations of the entire SF series where Sagat has been highly considered S-Tier. Still they include Dan and haven’t buffed him to be S-Tier.

GW2 does very well IMO though because many builds and professions have a chance against many other builds and professions. Your chance rises if you where to counter pick your build (something that happens frequently in fighting games).

Also take MvC3 and one combo can lead to a full character kill with no counter only hoping your opponent drops the combos. Then you have a 50/50 when your next character comes to not get him wiped also. MvC3 is highly competitive and popular but anyone on the outside looking in on the MvC3 scene with just very basic knowledge of fighting games would think it is extremely imbalanced.

Still different genre’s there are something’s comparable and some that are not. You just have to consider the foundation that each is built on. The Top S-Tier fighting game character has the best chance against the field a D-Tier character has a chance against a S-Tier character but not as good as an A-Tier.

Anyway intended imbalances happen even in fighting games otherwise SF would be nothing but Ken’s and Ryu and there would be no variety which means interest dies quickly.

I think what get’s lost in the shuffle in regards to GW2 is the team aspect and hotjoins where you didn’t decide your team or opponents. So people end up fighting a team of 4 necromancers and 1 warrior and come to the forums to say “look at how OP necros are”.

BlackDevil.9268:

When 2 equal skilled players are fighting eachother, than short answer: yes, to the SR part.
I’m not saying the thief should insta-lose the moment he gets knocked out of SR. I’m just saying a thief shouldn’t have such easy access to such powerfull skill. Instead of dodging a combo that requires the mesmer to hold on certain skills to knock out the thief who clearly wasn’t able to put his SR against a wall, he can just klick F1 and pretty much /sit in his SR cause the mesmer can’t do anything to him.
Another thing is, a thief can’t get interrupted easily already. Giving stability to thief makes it impossible to interrupt. Sometimes it’s just crucial to do so, while a thief can just go like ‘’f1 lolol no interrupt for you!’’ and then just goes on with his 2/3 spam till the mesmer is dead.
’’very’’ skillfull, but very effective.

What attacks do you have that are a threat to a thief in SR? i-wave and mind stab. When you pop refuge you want to stay in refuge at all costs you don’t care about your endurance. If you already have your GS out then maybe you have a chance with your technique but thieves are dodging yes even randomly in SR because by time the stealth is up you have your endurance back.

It seems like your angle is counter play but a thief can’t counter play distortion + anything you decide to do. Somethings just have no or very little counter play. Also not everyone is running a GS on their mesmer. Consume plasma souldn’t be change just because of your preferred play style.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I have to agree with you TC, I do dislike the D/P spam for the reasons you listed. If you fight any D/P thief, it makes the fight last longer than it should. I also agree that the change to the Black Powder should be done (preferably for WvW alone), since not only does this get rid of a really irritating setup in WvW, it also gets rid of stealth spamming thieves to a degree unless there’s a zerg to coast on using CnD.

For the class to become better at surviving, we need to show to Anet how well thieves survive out of stealth (meaning not that well unless specced for it). Such a change could even lead to them boosting our base stats.

If something annoys you it doesn’t mean it needs to be changed because you don’t like it. Annoyance =/= unbalanced.

Anet knows how thieves survive out of stealth it’s called S/P with Pistol whip and S/D with Flanking strike and evades. Martyring to get base stats improved not many people will hop on that train.

Your balance perspective just kind of struck me as odd.

luckyny.7468:

oZii.2864:

Don’t use double tap to dodge.

What do you use instead?

A side mouse button. When you double tap to dodge in s/tPvP and WvW you many times guess when a big attack is coming when you have a mouse button ready you can dodge on demand when you see the actual attack coming like an eviscerate or burning speed. I used double tap for a long time probably up until december of last year for some reason when I made my engineer I was able to drop the habit. I still played decently with double tap dodges but you notice a big difference when you finally break the habit.

Gokil.2543:

I am referring to 1v1 scenarios in both roaming and the sanctum (just because that is the simplest case to consider). I very much agree that the skill level on average roamers is leagues below what you tend to find in the os. I play T2 EU and have an amazing time there. Ofcourse these numbers I mention are extremely rough estimates. It’s not really about the numbers, more about the huge swing in our 1v1 potential. I feel quite bad when I start beating the people I used to lose to because of a lucky burning speed evade and what not. I guess that’s the main point I was trying to bring across. Having spent as many hours there as I have, I would say I have become quite adept at assessing a matchup disregarding player skill.

You really should just take 1v1 duels with a grain of salt. Meditation Guard is one of the strongest 1v1 builds in the game with it’s weakness being Elementalist and Necromancers while being very strong against mesmers, and almost hard countering a thief, and Warriors really need a mace/shield+GS to beat medi guard, people don’t complain about it because out roaming it lacks mobility unless you put on traveler runes which also lowers your dps. So since it’s slow it doesn’t get complained about on gw2 forums but if it did have mobility it would probably be complained about as much as warriors do.

kRAVen.4195:

Totally agreeing with Straegen on this one. Condi clears and big burst condi clears are on a much longer cooldown than the condi applying builds that are currently part of the condi meta.

How is it different? Stability. Many classes can apply it to themselves and a few can provide it for others. Everybody is well aware of the exceptions, warriors have beserkers stance andeles diamond skin, but there is no “Condi Stance Stability” effect that allows all not to be conditioned the way stability works on CCs.

The most upsetting thing about the current condi meta is how it rewards the run in your own aoe circle while staying away from the opponent playstyle . Some of these classes (mesmer, engi) even attack while running away, something a pure melee can never do.

The point that can’t be overlooked is that direct damage and condition damage have similarities and differences. They have some defenses against both damage types overlap and some don’t.

You can block, dodge, blind, etc… both but you can’t cleanse the direct damage. You can cleanse the and therefore prevent expected damage of the condition. You can heal back the direct damage but you can also heal back lost hp from condition damage. It isn’t cut and dry they both do damage but the differences need to be acknowledge also.

Direct damage is upfront condition damage is backloaded.

When you look at the tooltip for a eviscerate and it says 4,000 damage you know it is instant. The burn has to have time and isn’t guaranteed to maybe even do 20% of it’s listed tooltips damage.

When your running direct damage your trying to overload the other persons defenses/healing and sustain. Sometimes you an do this in less then 5 seconds if they are unsuspecting. When you run condition damage you are doing the same thing you are trying to overload those same defenses that work against direct damage and the condition specific defenses. Even if you catch someone unsuspecting you still need longer then you would if you would be running power for the dot’s to do their damage before the enemy is dead.

Saying there aren’t enough cleanses to handle application is the same as there not being enough defenses to heal through direct damage.

On the flip side it would be like someone complaining that a full clerics doesn’t heal through full zerker’s damage.

That is always the case with Guardians. Has always been because we have soft CC and they don’t. Meditation guard is their best chance but it is still a extremely difficult fight. I have a guard and ele is difficult to beat has always been.

I never said that Strength runes aren’t that great on Ele I was saying that if you used another setup or strength runes or even a more dps rune setup pre-patch the damage increase is small if you ran boon duration setup then you will see a big difference in damage. Also remember ferocity nerf hurt crit damage rune sets.

My comment about the extra duration is when you hit 25 stacks of might how long can you maintain that with normal play before stacks fall off. Sigil of battle is 30 seconds with 50% duration and blast finisher is 22.5 secs. That is plenty of time to go through your attunements with normal play and maintain 25 stacks of might. The extra 25% post patch gives you an additional 11 seconds on blast finisher and 15 on battle. I’ll admit going from 1 fight to the next if it is close by then having stacks ready is great I can’t disagree with that. My point was more on a 1v1 scenario.

Overkillengine.6084:

Krait is better for bleed centric builds because the +bleed duration with the poison and torment as cover conditions happen to dovetail well.

Unfortunately the trigger condition on Perplexity is silly easy to spam on more than a couple builds making the set way more powerful in practice than it probably was intended to be. Multiple things count as an interrupt.

I’ve seen this before mentioned but spamming interrupts for the 6/6 is greatly counter productive. Say on engi you can shield 4 + shield 5, flame thrower 3 and for your efforts you received 5 stacks of confusion and all those skills on cooldown. Now your without 3 interrupts 2 of which are on long 30 and 40 sec. CD’s.

Not disagreeing with your assessment that perplexity still is the strongest condition rune I agree. To be fair though if you have no confusion on your enemy scavenging and undead are out dpsing perplexity until confusion is applied again.

I disagree with your WvW roaming assessment and it sounds like you where a 2/2/2 or divinity Rune user (I ran those setups before on different armor sets). I don’t know for sure if you just ran nothing but general boon duration pre-patch but Rune of Strength has little to do with Ele being better at WvW roaming.

Rune of strength in regards to Elementalist gives us a big whopping +2% damage, 10 power, and +25% might duration compared to pre-patch. Of course it’s more damage if all you knew was divinity runes and a lot more you where 2 monk/ 2 water/ 2 traveler user.

We only need 20% for 25 stacks of might anyway with d/d if you run 6 arcana. I ran rune of strength pre patch and pulled 20+ stacks of might easily. Honestly the extra 25% duration is largely wasted on a 6 arcana Elementalist and better for other classes. If you where fighting a sustain fight maintaining the peak 20+ stacks is better for long fights (guardians and other elementalists) but usually when you hit 20 the fight is usually close to over. Anyone that ran strength runes or hoelbrak pre-patch can probably attest to 20+ stacks with ease.

The general boon duration setup was also missing +155 power pre-patch now that you can’t run +75% boon duration the natural move was toward damage/might stacking.

So pre-patch if you ran 2/2/2 post patch you migrated to +165 power +7% damage your might duration didnt change (assuming 6 arcana). That is kind of self explanatory why your damage is “on a whole other level”.

TL&DR on Strength Runes 2/2/2 general boon duration was the popular setup for many people. Of course your going to see a lot more damage if you inject +165 power and 7% damage mod into your build if all you ran was general boon duration.

I started running Strength Runes a while back so for me it’s hardly noticeable. I probably have a thread posted somewhere on these forums advocating Rune of Strength pre-patch since they competed with even Ruby Orbs back then.

EDIT My old posts on these Runes
Just for reference I have always been a fan of Runes of Strength pre-patch and had a lot of time using them while many where doing 2/2/2

5 months ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Rune-of-strength-is-fixed-tested/first#post3388360

Almost a year ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Recommended-Runes-for-Elementalist-Builds/first#post2147410

As far as your specific 1v1’s – Many necros dropped dhuumfire and are trying to adjust , since that is a big loss of dps, I don’t main necromancer but I am pretty confident that my new necromancer build, wouldn’t lose to any standard D/D Ele build it’s that strong (it’s also not perplexity).

Your experience sounds different then mine which is probably how everyone’s will be. My personal experience is Necro, Engi, are still strong vs Ele. S/D 6 trick thief is 50/50 but it has been ever since they nerfed larcenous strike about 3 patches ago. A Mace/Shield + GS warrior will eat your lunch no matter how many stacks of might you have. Glass PU mesmers always 50/50 for me pre/post patch. Condi PU mesmer in the mesmers favor pre/post patch unless they are bad and you are forced to run ether renewal anyway just to stand a chance.

It’s all personal experience I don’t think d/d ele got easier to win with and lyssa nerf was big for S/D thieves since that was a very very popular rune for thieves giving them a free chance to spike you. Dhuumfire nerf is also huge and can’t be discounted either.

gennyt.3428:

@ oZii

If you’re asking if I’ve run into many condi Eles then that’s a no but I kinda feel like this is going in a circle. Saying you post a lot on the profession boards means just that, you post a lot on the boards, that’s it. There are many players who do not, so let’s not use this as yet another gauge. Small bands with condi Necros, Mesmers, Engineers and or Thieves tossed in aren’t uncommon in my experience. Now, if looking into how condition spam is leveraged in small fights means certain classes/runes/sigils/whatever come under scrutiny then so be it, I think we at least agree on that.

Then dismiss that part and let’s look at the classes. Small scale/solo and bring the classes under scrutiny. So instead of casting the wide net on “condi” what are the majority of the classes that you take issue with in how they use “condi spam”. A necro and thief do conditions totally differently as an example.

NinjaEd.3946:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Fire

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Hoelbrak

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Pirate

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Strength

I reckon the latest patch was rushed and they just ended up copy pasting a bunch of runes.

Anywho, strength runes may need a nerf, may need to buff other runes to be closer on par with what they offer. Hoelbrak does this well by providing a defensive form of strength runes, but still some runes need to be further distinguished and worked on. Too many runes still just full out suck, and sigils.

Also “when hit” rune effects are terrible. Too much gameplay is passively done with no thought, and many of those effects are have terrible duration settings (perma might, but ~22% uptime on regen from dwayna as if regen is that strong).

Yea I had high hopes for dwayna runes but they made the CD higher since the proc chance went up.

Arius.7031:

oZii.2864:

For what purpose?

He’s saying since eles have a lot of natural access to condis, one need not even spec for condis to do significant condi damage with a set like rampagers. I don’t think it’d be stronger than berserker’s mind you, just that’s what he’s saying I believe.

Yea I was just trying to get a idea of game mode it’s possible it could work in WvW you would be super squish though. throw some cav/soldiers trinkets could come up with something decent. Rampers dps is actually pretty good even if you ignore the condition damage it’s not zerk or assassins but could make a interesting set.

For what purpose?

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

that one rune alone has made ele one of the harder classes to beat if that doesn’t show that it is op then I don’t know what does

Then you don’t know much about elementalist. It is the **new**celestial amulet not the runes.

Previously strength runes would give a Ele using current meta build 45% might duration that is more then enough for a Elementalist to get to 20 stacks of might, add extra blast finisher on frozen burst, standard battle sigils and there you go.

I used the runes before the patch with 6 arcana and could get 20 stacks of might in my sleep. A ele could put on Runes of Water and do the same thing get 20 stacks of might sneezing. A 6 arcana Ele only needs an additional 15% might/boon duration to get 20 stacks of might without much effort just normal play.

Strength runes have always been a good candidate for Elementalist but it took them just up until 6 months ago to fix the 6/6 on the Runes that is why no one ever ran a full set of them. Instead you would see 2/2/2 fire, strength, hoelbrak.

A understanding of simple mechanics like blast finishers having a 15 second base duration with no boon investment goes a long way.

People aren’t running perma-fury now? What game have I been playing cause just about everyone has fury. SOR, Thrill of the crime, furious retaliation, zephyr’s boon + arcane fury, focused mind, phantasmal fury, furious demise. Fury comes out of many builds like it’s candy. Fury is what keeps many builds viable it’s more important to many of the games current builds then protection is.

frans.8092:

Well, runes sit on armor and they proc when you get hit, sigils sit in weapons and proc when the weapon hits, or crits. That makes sense to me.

That does make sense I don’t know why I ever thought of that. That is probably the reasoning behind it.

Carighan.6758:

Maybe runes in general should never be “overspecializing”?

That is, runes giving offensive stats – like Power – require getting hit to proc effects, and their setbonuses are of a defensive ~ semi-defensive nature. On the flipside, runes with defensive stats or support stats have offensive setbonuses?

I always thought that was odd.

I feel like for examples:

Strength 4/6 = might when you strike
Rage 4/6 = when you strike
Ogre 4/6 = summon rock dog when you strike.
Air 6/6 = lightning strike when you strike

Defense

Earth= prot when struck
Water = chance to remove condition when struck

The defense makes sense but when struck might or fury always seemed odd. I think a simple change like that would be much better and open up more variety. I was always a fan of how perplexity’s 4/6 was a bit more controllable and that is how direct damage runes procs should be. If I can get Air’s lightning strike on my hit it is better then getting hit to proc it.

Nike.2631:

Look at your Rune of Rage.
Now look at my Rune of Strength.
Now look back at your Rune of Rage.
Now back at my Rune of Strength.

Is there any question that the Rune of Strength (6/6) bonus should be 5%?

Not a difficult fix.

Look at the Rune of Rage
Look at the Rune of Strength

What is Rune of Rage missing? 175 Power

Is there any question why rune of rage never has been or never was close to the best dps runes even pre-patch? Rage has never been a good dps rune compared to power alternatives like Ogre because it is missing POWER.

That is simple maybe not widely known damage basics of GW2. Eagle is an exception as precision main-stat rune because it gives you 3 offensive stats and a multiplier that don’t require you to be hit to take advantage of. Most offensive builds have fury in them.

Rage requires you to get hit for the fury and if you have fury already it isn’t adding much to your base crit chance. Eagle will net you 7 critical damage looking at them all by themselves while Rage nets you 12 or Eagle gives you 58% of the critical damage of Rage, on top of 8 critical chance and a damage multiplier where 6%>5%. If the enemy spends 50% of the fight at 50% health then you could make the case for 5%>3%.

Rage needs a higher multiplier to complete with Ogre and Eagle or some power or precision added to it.

@LightningBlaze the food is for all your conditions if you are running a condi build. Fire magic isn’t a spot many ele builds go into so duration would be where you lack in your condition build. Condition damage isn’t a area a ele lacks because of our might stacking ability and attrition play style makes that even better. You would still take proper condition runes and possibly throw points into earth magic. You grab food to have more uptime on your doom sigil, torment sigil, your water chill, etc. The main reason for duration increase is Warriors or melandru users to offset there -durations. I agree that perplexity helps the build do damage there isn’t any denying that, but the reason I mentioned the food is that it gives you less time on target either because of an incoming attack, stun, or because you need to get out of fire faster so for example. You may only need 3 strikes of drakes to hit the same duration as someone who channels fully.

gennyt.3428:

@ oZii

Tossing up a listing weapon of combinations isn’t proof of what people are indeed running, you nor I have the numbers on that, and it’s still not the point. In my experience, condi can smother small fights on the cheap(risk/reward ratio), I think there is something wrong with that and that was my original point.

Those are the popular roaming builds/setups for all the classes I listed. I have 7 professions at 80 and I post on these forums alot and I’m in those profession forums all the time. There are probably people that have seen me in their class forums except rangers. I stay up to date on builds for all my classes. Sure there might be a special snowflake thief running S/P with perplexity in a condi build(lolwut). Still that isn’t common.

The question which I posed is what professions are you coming across? If you are running into all these conditions builds how many are thieves and mesmers and engi’s.

I am willing to bet money the majority of the professions you run across small scale that are conditions are mesmers, thieves, and engineers. If that is indeed the case why point the finger at conditions as the problem if you are coming across 5/10 thieves and 5/10 mesmers running conditions.

I am not even saying those professions are even a problem but I have been in tier 5 as low as tier 7 up to tier 1 and now tier 2 and mesmers and thieves are the most common roaming professions that will be running conditions solo/small scale. A lone necro all by himself isn’t unheard of but it isn’t by any stretch common like thieves and mesmers. Instead we make a thread about condi spam with out looking at the professions you see the most in small scale fights.

Organized guilds run guards and warriors, with power thieves and staff eles in 5-10 scale with maybe 1-2 necros.

Let’s be really honest here if we are truly singling out conditions then the classes running those have to be singled out also. Perhaps it might even be your class but solo to small scale is thief and mesmer heavy we can even throw engi in there. Calling conditions out of hand and not looking at the classes running them isn’t putting the picture in perspective. Anet will nerf the class before they nerf the main damage type. You have to ask yourself the honest question what are the majority of actual professions that are running these condi builds in solo/small scale.

It’s 1 for 4/6 and 1 stack of each for 6/6

Jeknar.6184:

bob.8632:

He was probably only mistaken about the “auto attack” comment (also possible the burn was stacked/stacking), the duration’s are easily achieved.

I don’t know but i heard that some engineers are running Runes of Balthazar for some crazy burn… I’m no expert tho.

He said no duration investment we don’t know what his “test” was so hard to say.

Balthazar is over investment in WvW with 30 explosives and food you can hit 125% burn duration which is only useful against melandru and lemongrass warriors and wasted on eveyone else.

@LightningBlaze Dolores has a point all you need is food for a Ele and you can get long burns then you just need to cover them up. A full wipe will hurt the damage output but not many classes run that much condi cleanse except maybe thieves, guards, and ele.

Then you have onswap geomancy and doom sigils to keep poison up 100%. The poison is probably 1 of the main strengths as long as another melee class is locked in fighting you then you will apply it constantly.

I haven’t ran condi on ele but I studied how it works which is why it’s not my flavor since it’s not as inherent as other classes but it does work if you cover correctly. Only Engi’s and Guards can rival ele burning output.

Lettuce.2945:

Sheppy.9306:

So you would rather run into a zerker with access to stability passive heal and all amounts of invulnerabilities, blocks and dodges that runs strength runes and sigil of intelligence (amounting to a 200% increase to dps on weapon swap on 3 attacks) compared to classes with conditions that run no stun breakers, no stability, and no passive heals? Don’t make me lol hard please. I didn’t think anybody considered condition classes to be along the meta anymore.

Are you a PvEr? It’s starting to show through a lot. You seem to think that necros are the only condition spammers lol. No passive heals? Oh, so there’s no condition warriors either? There’s a lot of cheese condi builds across all classes (not ele in spvp, rare to see a condi ele) especially engi, warriors, mesmer, guards, necros, etc. And most of them have a lot of stun breakers, stability….Are you just trolling for the sake of trolling? I would rather run into a wall of zerkers. I main an ele. I have a lot of cleanse but all the cleanse in the world can’t save me against a wall of condis. Only thing I can do is run.

As I already mentioned before and you seemed to tip toe around that. A zerker build misses his burst, it’s a problem. A condi misses his condi skill, it’s not a problem. He has more up his sleeves. Thusly answering the question, which is more skilled and which is cheese.

This seems the misconception that a condition build doesn’t have a spike setup. It does and the fight lasts longer if he misses that spike continuously just like a power build.

If all zerker builds only have a spike and only built for that one spike they would usually be classified as gimicky all in 1 trick ponies which is far from the case. A D/D ele isn’t dead if he misses updraft, burning speed and fire grab he isn’t even in big trouble. That is what utilities are for and get out of jail skills if you want to call them that.

Thief misses a back stab he isn’t in trouble he as a freaking refuge and probably a shadow step. on hand. Not sure what game your playing if you miss your burst as a zerk/direct damage build it makes the fight last longer if you die because you missed that burst then you have all damage oriented setups with no survivability built in. You went all-in by choice.

A condi build has a optimal condi spike setup you can’t win just by auto attacking with a pistol you bait dodge with that for the setup. Something power builds should also do I hope you don’t go in assuming every enemy is fully out of endurance and might not have a energy sigil on a weapon.

Shocking aura is ready every 21 seconds if you use it off cooldown that isn’t really that long and probably where you get most of the 6/6 procs from. Thats faster then any of the engineers interrupts in a traditional nade/bomb build.

It doesn’t really matter what you change to. I don’t really pay attention to that kind of talk it’s best not to.

Run what you like running. I use to run perplexity on my engi but now I run grenth if I thought perplexity was better for my build I would run it. I have 7 classes I play with Ele as my main.

Just run what you like and don’t pay attention to what someone else says. Many people are hypocrites honestly complaining about passive procs for conditions but forget they are getting a % damage boost for playing the way they normally would. Forgetting that fury is also a DPS increase along with might but it’s not ok for a condition build to get procs but it’s ok for a direct damage build to get X% modifier for doing something simple.

I won’t ever run condi on my Ele, Warrior, or Guardian. I do run condi on my Engi, Necro, occasionally Thief, and Mesmer. I would say that I am not biased to either direct damage or condition builds.

The problem is it’s WvW there are no points you have to fight over can kite to your liking or abilities allow and even CnD off chickens.

Someone else will point out I’m sure how you mention you find them predictable in PvP but in your story you are getting hit with Eviscerate and Earthshaker 2 high damage but telegraphed skills.

Anyway it was a duel or 1v1 encounter there are no points PvP =/= WvW. WvW is a sandbox.

So your suggestion here is to essentially nerf the warrior base damage and health in WvW so you can kill them with a 6 SA D/P thief build in a 1v1. Does that really sound like a good reason to adjust warriors health and damage? Your 1v1 experience?

I run 6 SA and 6 trickery with S/D and if the warrior stays and fights I find it personally even the warrior can leave the fight when he wants but I can do the same on my thief.

scerevisiae.1972:

Whenever there’s a massive swing towards one rune set, it’s pretty obvious there’s a problem.

Conversely, there are just as many crappy runes around as before the revamp, so am left wondering what was the point?

Whenever there is a massive swing toward something that means there was a shake up and change on a massive scale. Ferocity and rune/sigil rework. This is new territory so I don’t understand where the “whenever” came from since this is unprecedented in GW2 life cycle.

Let me put this list here again in one of these threads.

Popular WvW Roaming setups

Warrior:
Sw/Sh+GS = Power because lol GS in a condi build
S/S+LB = Condi
Mace/Sh+GS Power
Hammer + GS = Power
Axe/Mace+GS= Power

Thief:
P/D = Condi
P/D = Power
D/P= Power
S/D = Power
S/P = Power
You have a bow your probably = Power

Mesmer:
PU hybrid = Power/Condi
PU condi = Condi
PU hybrid = Power
Shatter = Power
Phantasm = Power
Phantasm = Condi

Guardian:
Some new niche condi/hybrid = only seen 1 or 2 guards running this
Meditation= Power
Shouts = Power

Engineer:
Nades = Condi
Nades = Power
Bombs = Condi
Rifle = Power

Necromancer:
Lifeblast build = power
Terrormancer = condi
MM = is this sPvP?

Elementalist:
D/D standard = Power
S/D Fresh air = Power
Diamond skin = power
Diamond skin = condi
Diamond skin = hybrid
Staff = Who roams on staff?

I don’t know much about rangers

LB = Glass
Traps = Condi

Don’t know the other ranger setups

There are far more power/direct damage builds running around then condi builds since each class only has 1-2 condition builds because they are limited to only a few weapons in most cases. It is impossible for there to be more condition builds then direct damage builds unless your class has more condi focus weapons then direct damage weapons which isn’t the case for even Necromancers.

As far as what you actually see roaming. What is usually needed to have a successful roaming build?

Mobility/escapability and adaptability for more then 1 enemy or in other words the ability to possibly 1vX.

What classes have builds that CAN meet the above criteria? Warriors, Mesmers, Engineers and Thief, Elementalist. So that means many warriors, mesmers, engineers, thieves, and elementalist.

So it’s condi meta because those are the best classes to roam on? Engi is probably the most consistent condi build you will come across of those classes.

If you come across 10 thieves and 15 mesmers in 1 night of roaming and they happen to be all conditions that doesn’t mean it is a condi meta lol. Even in the player created game of “roaming” then it means it is a thief and mesmer meta.

I would need some video unedited roaming for somone to convince me that the majority of Warriors are running condi, same for Guardians, and Elementalist.

Thieves and Mesmers dominate roaming they set this “meta”. Instead of pointing the finger at what type of damage they are running count how many professions types you come across. *

Stack defense = no skill
Stack offense = skill

Just making sure I got this right.

Yea probably because you have perplexity on.

The OP plays Engi and if the OP understood his class and traits then it should be easy to realize it is an uphill fight.

Either way this thread is just carrying on and the OP hasn’t been back with any type of input just stating Necro is Noob Click class and he has trouble with them. We don’t know his build, playstyle, or even exactly what he has trouble with against the necro.

Looks like a fire and forget thread to me.