Guild Wars 2

The alternatives to signet received buffs and use to be the go to heal when signet was trash. Every warrior used mending or surge before. Signet is just the best heal that’s all there is to it and other classes are in the same boat.

Most guards run shelter in PvP, most mesmers run ether feast, most necromancers take consume conditions etc…

I see your aim to make the other heals better though. I don’t have a problem with signet personally and think its fine, that said the other heals could be looked at but I don’t know if that will make people move away from signet. Elementalist run signet or ether but glyph doesn’t see a lot of use but it isn’t a bad heal by any stretch as a more explained example.

Just throwing my 2 cent in the ring not disagreeing with the purpose of your thread.

^^ it was probably a signets of power 6/6/0/0/2 build. That’s the all-in thief build from launch. It’s rare because you die so fast but some people still run it.

Most people that have been playing for a while have seen it, died to it, and killed a thief running it. I don’t think it’s a problem it’s all in, usually only room for just shadowstep or SR everything else is signets.

jportell.2197:

oZii.2864:

jportell.2197:

I remember when zelulose was griping about how mesmers were OP and he had the absolute best mesmer build in the game and that his build is why mesmers should be nerfed. IIRC he 1v1’d one of the more prominent mesmers in the community, (mesmer community not the self proclaimed pvp mesmer gods.) and he got absolutely destroyed with in a few seconds….. So anything that he gripes about take it with a grain of salt because well it seems that he just doesn’t know how to deal with some of the weaker builds or a class that has no stability outside of lich form on one of the classes best equipped to strip said stability. Baddies gonbe bad.

Was that Pyro with his phantasm build he fought? If so I remember reading that.

YUP! LOL the video was hilarious. But given that experience this doesn’t surprise me that he has found something else to be upset about.

I didn’t know there was a video I’ll have to look for that. I had just skimmed over that thread but thought it was pretty funny.

jportell.2197:

I remember when zelulose was griping about how mesmers were OP and he had the absolute best mesmer build in the game and that his build is why mesmers should be nerfed. IIRC he 1v1’d one of the more prominent mesmers in the community, (mesmer community not the self proclaimed pvp mesmer gods.) and he got absolutely destroyed with in a few seconds….. So anything that he gripes about take it with a grain of salt because well it seems that he just doesn’t know how to deal with some of the weaker builds or a class that has no stability outside of lich form on one of the classes best equipped to strip said stability. Baddies gonbe bad.

Was that Pyro with his phantasm build he fought? If so I remember reading that.

I use air alacrity trait because having shocking aura ready every 15 seconds after use is good. It’s the main reason I don’t run 2 earth anymore if I need some emergency defense swap to air for shocking. Also RTL on 15 sec cd on hit is good also.

It’s the only one I found worthwhile for me since air is the attunement I spend time in for extended periods. I also think the damage loss from stone splinters and 4 air is minimal. I haven’t done any math on it to confirm but 5 crit chance, 7 critical damage, and electric discharge I think keep me close in damage to stone splinters.

frans.8092:

oZii.2864:

frans.8092:

oZii.2864:

The op is complaining that his toughness isn’t enough the op thinks 2.6k armor is enough.

It’s the amount of armor you can expect from going full Soldier’s, Knight’s will get you more armor, but with the reduced Vitality you’ll be more vulnerable to burst. The difference between Soldier’s and Knight’s in damage reduction is about …. 12%

I am not defending the OP, but claiming that 2600 armor is not enough, or that it “isn’t a lot”, is absurd.

We don’t know what gear he was wearing and 2.6k obviously isn’t enough for the op.

We know he had 2,6k armor and we know several reactions suggested 2,6k armor is insufficient (in general), which is a … remarkable suggestion when you consider that full Soldiers will get you about 2.6k armor.

… I bet whatever his number is would mean it would tickle 2.9k armor

i wouldn’t be surprised if that number would ‘tickle’ 3.9k armor.

I know he was using a engineer but how many points in inventions also if he had stabilized armor he could have reduced the damage by 20% assuming he was basilisk prior since basilisk is a regular stun now.

NinjaEd.3946:

phaeris.7604:

So the counter to initiative is…..

Oh that’s right, nothing.

There is a laundry list of things that justify initiative not being affected by chill, and it isn’t just feelings. Also a lack of cd doesn’t mean our weapon skills are superior, there are drawbacks to it but you wouldn’t understand.

He didn’t say they where superior.

frans.8092:

oZii.2864:

The op is complaining that his toughness isn’t enough the op thinks 2.6k armor is enough.

It’s the amount of armor you can expect from going full Soldier’s, Knight’s will get you more armor, but with the reduced Vitality you’ll be more vulnerable to burst. The difference between Soldier’s and Knight’s in damage reduction is about …. 12%

I am not defending the OP, but claiming that 2600 armor is not enough, or that it “isn’t a lot”, is absurd.

We don’t know what gear he was wearing and 2.6k obviously isn’t enough for the op. Like you said burst if he is getting multi-hit then ok but a big attack like backstab is different. Honestly the question is what is enough or what would the OP find as acceptable damage for 2.6k armor. I bet whatever his number is would mean it would tickle 2.9k armor.

Lol I PvE? Say what you will but you are in the minority on that necro logic. We can all continue to dismiss your posts as per usual. Yup, Spam condi’s on the Necro not the Mesmer we all must be doing it wrong.

I’m not a fan of hydro because of warriors hardly noticing it, thieves hardly noticing it. I think doom is good but same concept with hydro it does give good cover for burns though.

I like energy myself though we can get perma vigor thieves with s/d can apply weakness and still the vigor, necro’s and pu mesmers have a lot of weakness uptime. Those are some of our worst enemies. The on death trait pu mesmers run is almost perma weakness

NinjaEd.3946:

Counterplay against signet of restoration is needed. Even if I get chill on them, it doesn’t last all that long and they just cycle 1-5. Its very pathetic. That signet should be changed to a bigger heal but when you proc a combo effect or something, because pressing 1-5 and swapping attunement is kitten. I don’t see them bursting anything, as much as just tiring you out because something is gana hit you.

Also idk their exact trait set up but having perma ~20 stacks of might effectively negating the need for heavy power investment is pretty kitten to me but I guess ele spent such a long time on that dirt nap I’ll let em be gods for a lil. Boon strip? Next rotation they get it back. Then the fresh air ele who could not be anymore obnoxious. “Ha, I’m smacking you for 10k, oh you come after me? I’ll just run away. I really should locate the attunement swap button”. Wish we all had fly swatters to get rid of these pests from pvp.

@Andele

I knew it wasn’t long before this petty argument turned on thief. Feel free to join the millions of other kittens who have no basis for changing the initiative system other than that they don’t like it.

Your obvious thief bias and lack of knowledge shines through in this post. How can you claim ele is face roll when you don’t even know how a ele stacks might that’s like basic.

Your thief isn’t some over complex class nothing in gw2 really is. Most people that have been playing this game long enough can pick out what utilities you probably will pick and what you will do when you get low health. You probably think you should burst a ele when it is in water instead of after water. At least learn what your fighting before calling it face roll.

You are the same person that said you should condi burst a Necro before a Mesmer so your class ignorance is documented.

Terrahero.9358:

People will defend losing 10.000 health in an instance with “get more armor, l2p, l2dodge”etcetc. Anything that basicly means YOU need to get more defensive.

And then they complain there are so many Bunkers. Go figure huh… Maybe if absurd burst like this wasnt so common, other people wouldnt feel pressured into super tanky builds.

Also, love how people put the blame on the defender when it comes to power-damage burst. But if this was conditions, ho boy…

The op is complaining that his toughness isn’t enough the op thinks 2.6k armor is enough. People go bunker because they can just like people go full burst because they can. It’s fine there are 2 extremes at play here and those in the middle that is fine. People in the middle die fast to burst and can’t kill bunkers. These complaints pop up when people that relate to burst complain about bunkers and vice versa for people that play tank specs.

Here is the problem with the OP. You died and see that as a balance issue because it was fast. You are going to die in WvW just because you die doesn’t mean there is a problem because of how you died.

There are 2 sides to this story the victim and the attacker. Everything in life has multiple sides to a story.

All you are telling us is basically you died fast and so there must be an imbalance. The other side of the story is how fast that thief dies too. Anyone that has played a thief build that puts out that kind of damage is telling you that the thief dies just as fast as you do.

You and that thief can both make a thread saying the same thing “I died to fast” he went all in for that damage you didn’t go all in on defense because 2600 armor isn’t a lot. That kind of thief is a asset and liability because it’s a bunker buster he might not kill a guardian or warrior bunker in 1 shot but it will definitely force them to blow important cooldowns. It’s a liability of it doesn’t know how to play that spec on the edge it is rally bait.

The old popular setup was 0/6/0/2/6 or 0/6/0/4/4 valk was main armor with zerk/valk maybe throw in cav.

Good presentation then I saw elementalist as insanely OP in WvW.

I main elementalist and to say it’s insanely op in WvW screams “I have trouble with Eles in duels”. That’s being honest knowing the class this is only duel focused. When there are higher numbers or a necromancers around reduces the effectiveness of a ele. If your selling this then at least present on more the duels and 1v1.

Anyway I think this is intended otherwise why give runes of earth, strength, speed, pack. If they didn’t want people to augment their boons they could have easily not put them on runes it’s pretty simple.

Start bs cast lightning flash on target. It just helps guarantee you hit with the flame blast at the end. The fire trail damage isn’t that good it it’s extra

This won’t get much agreement here just because of warrior healing signet. Ether renewal can be interrupted it isn’t the same. You can trait signet to give the passive even if you use the active something no other similar heal can do. Like has been stated don’t compare in a void. We have heals on our weapons how
can you dismiss that.

You can actually use the signets active and stay alive on a ele on a warrior it is certain death.

Hey nerf a whole trait line because I don’t like it. Seriously where is the logic!

This is a good solid idea

Looking again at your screenshot you ate high damaging attacks. They have cooldowns.

Focus water skills are great it’s fire that are weak

20 water 30 arcana is the core. You can try different thing from there. Really grab a celestial ammy then strength runes or hoelbrak then experiment.

Here is a tip: go to the wiki look at how damage works. Look at how armor works.

Toughness is great against little hits it isn’t so great for big hits.

Class specific thread should ask warrior forums and mesmers

Andele.1306:

oZii.2864:

Elites vs short cooldown class mechanic they aren’t exactly the same. Blowing an elite to stomp or long cooldown utility isn’t the same as a 10 second transform class mechanic. The class mechanic doesn’t offer invulnerability but neither does stability. You could compare it to mist form but that is a utility on a long cooldown. Even distortion is on a long cooldown. A foot in the grave necromancer would be the best stomper in the game. I have no feelings either way just pointing out that it isn’t the same. Though it is possible as been stated just requires timing.

You mean its not like Ele and thief have stability on higher total uptime with master+ traits now, its not like you got active multi blocks on under a 30s cooldowns and its not like devs confirmed ages ago that DS stomping right now is a exploit not for its strength, but because you are abusing ping/lag for it (being impossible on private servers you own for example too).

Oh hey Andele attempting to argue as usual. Active multi-blocks on less then 30s cds? I’m lost on that one but anyways…

The post I was replying to was in response to comparing DS to elites and utilities. Guess you missed that part but continue as usual…

I’m sure Darox/Zelyhn can help you with the math.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/Darox-8069

He is the author of 2 of our great stickies at the top of the forum. He put together all the cast times/aftercast list for elementalist.

I’m surprised he hasn’t chimed in to this thread. Maybe give him a PM for help.

Muchacho.2390:

I find it more annyoing that it is inconsistent. DS and plague are both instant casts and both transformations yet in order to DS stomp you have to hit f and f1 at the same time, while with plague you still can cast plague when you already channeling the stomp.

Actually i would even say that a big problem this game has, is that many mechanics are inconsistent…

Elites vs short cooldown class mechanic they aren’t exactly the same. Blowing an elite to stomp or long cooldown utility isn’t the same as a 10 second transform class mechanic. The class mechanic doesn’t offer invulnerability but neither does stability. You could compare it to mist form but that is a utility on a long cooldown. Even distortion is on a long cooldown. A foot in the grave necromancer would be the best stomper in the game. I have no feelings either way just pointing out that it isn’t the same. Though it is possible as been stated just requires timing.

NinjaEd.3946:

I’d focus Mesmer over necro because I’d be chasing a Mesmer, necro isn’t dodging or blocking nearly as much or using stealth to recover and avoid. Mesmer doesn’t have terrible condition clearing, mix that with their ability to avoid things altogether versus taking it and potentially sending it back yeah, I’d focus necro first. Condition transfer only works if they don’t dodge or block it, otherwise it doesn’t remove them. Mesmer is below necro as far as removing conditions, assuming perfect conditions are set which is rarely ever.

Though like I stated the Necromancer doesn’t need you to drop the conditions he can give them to anything targetable. You can go full burst and if you are playing a good necro and he can’t give them to you then he will give it to your teammate, a pet, or clone. A necro well a good one will fear you to try and guarantee the transfer especially if he is counting dodges, that doesn’t work he still have tainted shackles to set up a transfer, that doesn’t work flesh golem charge. It’s not like the necro can’t almost guarantee a transfer and plague signet is instant cast stun break. Though many necros don’t run plague signet because fears, tainted shackles, and flesh golem are usually enough to get off a transfer.

Yea no dodges in that video.

It looks very strong I still think element of surprise is working in your favor as nobody expects a condition elementalist but it is strong nonetheless. Still not my cup for a Ele I don’t think I will ever go conditions on my Ele but it looks strong. I fought frowny’s 4 earth before stone heart and it was strong then.

I can see this catching on especially after this last video. Good job on the build Ash. I think every build has it’s place and every style also. I am not anti-condi I just wouldn’t run condi on my ele I use my necro and engi for that but still great job putting together a solid build alternative for Elementalist.

You might as well give it some snazzy name so people can quickly reference it.

NinjaEd.3946:

I have in the past run condi thief, never in tpvp though. I’ve run in overall game modes (wvw, spvp, tpvp) condi engineer, thief, and ranger, and I do play a necro just not condi spec’ed. Granted I can stay in DS a LONG time and have hoelbrak runes + unholy martyr I can get loaded with conditions pretty quickly forcing me to back off, use [Consume conditions], or combo something to make sure deathly swarm makes contact because it clears 0 conditions if it misses.

In a normal situation, my target focus depends on the build. Most of my builds, I’m on the side lines picking off ranged or support classes. With a condi build, I’ve found it much easier to lay pressure on a necro than a ranger because I always see them running empathic bond + renewal signet which is 4 conditions removed every 10 seconds. Guardian, warrior, conditions are meaningless unless you have a ton of sources that are quick to apply and reapply, elemenatlists don’t seem to have troubles with it either.

I apologize if I made it sound like necromancer has terrible condition clearing, I meant to say they are better targets than most, while some are even better targets. I look at necro condition clearing like how TC used to be in wvw (I think SoS took that spot for now). They aren’t quite Tier 1, but they are better than tier 2 if that makes sense. I’d still focus a necro with conditions over a Mesmer even if Mesmer isn’t superb at clearing conditions.

I just cant follow this line of thinking tbh. It makes no sense to throw condis on a necro before a mesmer even if you don’t get hit by the transfer your teammates. I do it all the time on my necro if I fight a condi pu mesmer if I need a transfer and the mesmer is stalling I just give them to the phantasm or clone, or a team mate, a pet from a ranger there are plenty of things around to dump conditions on it doesn’t just have to be you. I am just not following this, really nobody would agree with this line of thinking and I don’t think you know something we all don’t.

NinjaEd.3946:

Yet I constantly see them putting marks at their feet, which means you can run up and dodge through them and waste it. Only necro’s I see using staff are MM or fear spam, neither of which are very thoughtful and are played by pretty kitten people.

Tossing a care package worth of conditions isn’t difficult, you can often force them into using it without having put out your full condition burst. If they enter DS its even easier to unload, and it gets that much easier.

I was just wondering about your views as they are against the norm with Necro’s being a person you should target with conditions. It looks like you main thief looking at your post history, so I am guessing you run your thief with conditions probably 2/0/6/0/6? That is the one condition build that has the best chance against a condition Necro, but every other class running conditions isn’t a condi thief and it is far in the condition Necro’s favor.

Condi thief in s/tPvP? That is the only condition build I can even think of that can live through a condition transfer and really the only one that would maybe make a condition necro place putrid at their feet. A condition engi stands no chance especially if supply crate is not up. Five Guage has even said he won’t engage necro’s by himself unless there is help or the necro is extremely bad. So you have to be talking about condi p/d thief in s/tPvP. Any good necro will doom and flash out of DS place Putrid Mark if they really need to get the transfer off.

Arganthium.5638:

Nobody owns builds
I’d love to live in a world where that was the case, but unfortunately most of the GW2 community seems to disagree.

People relate the build to (insert popular player). When they say Sizer’s build they are literally it as if he created the build when in fact they are just relating it to Sizer in many cases.

People come to my house and see a Pitcher filled with Red drink they are probably going to call it Kool-Aid even though it might be called Fruity Powder drink with a stick of butter added to make it taste richer therefore it literally isn’t Kool-Aid.

In your case you may have created the build and it should probably be referred to as Arganthium’s build – Popularized by Sizer but do you think anyone will go through the trouble of that on this or any other forum?

Check the mesmer forums there are probably 50 PU variations with different names and maybe a trait changed(if that) sometimes it is only just some sigils or runes but same concept. Most will call the build PU anyway unless it’s something Osicat made.

yanniell.1236:

Thanks for the suggestions! I put some soldier equip, and now my build looks like THIS. Is it ok for roaming? Also, i’m having trouble choosing Renewing Stamina over Windborne Dagger. It just feels too slow without it.

Looks fine just see how it plays out if you feel you lack damage add more critical damage power levels look good. You take renewing stamina for swiftness just swap to air and out of air, use shocking aura if you don’t think you will get in a fight.

NinjaEd.3946:

Traits like cleansing ire and empathic bond are an awful method to dealing with conditions, because they are almost essential by doing the job almost far to well to pass up. It isn’t really build diversity if there is a best in slot solution to deal with vulnerability.

Also few professions have effective means to deal with condition overload, and many professions lack sufficient condition clearing period. If I play a condi build and I see a thief or engineer or necro I focus them, because they don’t deal with them too well. There are a good chunk of builds that have well known vulnerabilities that even if they try to spec to deal with it, it just doesn’t quite work. Ever cc a thief and pour liquid conditions on them? It’s quite tasty.

That doesn’t make sense how they are awful for dealing with conditions but are to good at dealing with conditions. Also BIS slow condition traits are all through many builds thieves taking shadows embrace, eles taking cleansing water, guardians taking absolute resolution. Every class has a BIS trait as in clearly the best one they have.

Also necros don’t deal with conditions to well? Since? Engineers I can agree with but I don’t know of to many necro’s that would agree with that. What thieves are you CCing that don’t have shadow step ready or even just lay refuge on top of themselves to cleanse? You are fighting some odd people.

Every class I play can make conditions hardly a issue if they wanted to build that way. That doesn’t mean you will kill many things but you can build that way. Mesmer considered to have poor condition management actually have pretty decent management but they would have to give up their popular traits. Ele is self explanatory, guardian, thieves with shadow embrace, fleet foot and pain response etc… The popular builds don’t take those traits but they can deal with a overload. It’s the same concept if you wanted to tank direct damage you take every trait that helps you do so.

Kharr.5746:

It’s almost like you didn’t read anything I said nor do you understand how toughness works. Condi damage is the most effective type of damage vs high toughness builds since it ignores 100% of toughness. A Knights-geared player will always lose to a Rabid-geared player if they’re of equal skill.

The problem is that the only counter to rabid-condi builds are condi builds since all that power/precision/crit damage is greatly reduced in effectiveness by the toughness of Rabid-condi builds.

In terms of people defending condis and saying “oh, if you nerf them, it will kill build diversity.” In PVE this might be true, and I think condis need a buff in PVE. Condis are definitely a bit less desirable in PVE. I’d like to see condi damage increased in PVE.

However, in PVP condis have been dominant for about a year now. If nearly everyone is running a condi build (bunker or dps) that’s not build diversity. Condis might be “close” to being balanced, but they’re definitely stronger than power damage. If we were seeing 50/50 split in terms of power and condi builds, sure, this thread would be pointless. I’d like to see that happen one day. Until that happens, condis are objectively OP.

Disclosure: I play all 8 classes with condi builds (most rabid, some carrion). This is not because I like condis, but because it’s much easier to win with them in the current balance of the game.

Edit: I also only use the bunny finisher, because I want my opponents to know that I’m a noob that only won because of condi spam.

You don’t have any metrics to show that it isn’t a 50/50 split you are basing all of this from your experience. Going by your expertise you run nothing but conditions on all 8 professions and never die to a power build which I’m sure isn’t the case at all.

It sounds like you are also giving toughness just a little to much credit in what it does. The popular condition builds sit around 2.7k armor – 2.8k armor. Going from 2.6k armor to 2.8k is probably 5% damage reduction at most so around a 400-500 hp loss difference on a 8k backstab. Many direct damage builds hit 2.6k armor pretty easily with thief and mesmer getting away with zerker a bit better then everyone else.

Nobody is really running conditions at top meta in s/tPvP so this must be about WvW/roaming/dueling. Just running knights doesn’t guarantee a auto loss to rabid user a knights user with no points in vit tree, no condition cleanses, no idea what that condition build is capable of is a different story.

All condition builds are different just like direct damage a mesmer condi build, thief condi build, engi condi build, necromancer condition build all perform differently. It’s obvious with in seconds that playing a engi condi build is totally different then playing a necromancer condition build.

A direct damage build might have 1 attack that does 5k and another doing 3k while another has an attack that does 6k and 2k. They are both using direct damage stats and their 1-5 are putting out different numbers. We don’t lump all direct damage builds together for some strange reason. A necromancer has a fear doing 1k a tick a mesmer doesn’t have this or any other condi build. The Mesmer is putting out burns with staff auto the Thief isn’t putting out burns unless he has on balthazaar runes. The list goes on and on in the differences in builds but some how condition builds are 1 in the same but direct damage builds are not.

That is why this argument is rather amusing.

The question really is will the devs look at condition damage and tinker with burns, bleeds, torment, terror, chill, etc in a blanket against that damage type or would they just tinker with the class/classes that people claim to be overperforming with that damage type? The more likely scenario is that class will be affected. The anti-condition side appears to just clump all the condition builds together so there is no identifying which condition build on which class they think is overperforming. So this anti-condition argument is basically going no where.

To many generalities and not enough specifics pointing what build on what class. Calling out condition builds ability to sustain means you think the traits need to be adjusted which in turn means direct damage build will be affected too as an example.

If you have a problem with a specific build and think it needs to be changed in some way call out that build on that class. Generalizing all condition builds under 1 umbrella doesn’t really do anything except make it appear as if you don’t know what the problem is or if there is even one to begin with.

frans.8092:

NinjaEd.3946:

I don’t agree with Kharr but the fact that we have a 5% direct damage sigil bonus kinda speaks for itself that power needs some bonuses to do anything worth mentioning.

There’s a +6% condition damage sigil, that suggests condition damage needs +6% where power damage can do with +5% …

Obviously precision is the winner here since it gets 7%

NinjaEd.3946:

Except button smashing on a power build doesn’t amount to much excluding the few builds that are plaguing all of pvp partly due to strength runes being far to easy of a solution. Power builds pack a big kick and then it’s just tap dancing with them till it reoccurs, condition builds you put on some conditions and just use the aa to sit back and play it safe. Button smashing on a glass build is light years from button smashing a condi build.

If you button smash on all builds then stay in 8v8 hot join matches, but don’t take that mentality elsewhere especially if you’re going to argue balance. Condition builds are easier to run than power builds in general as far as offense goes. There are a small few exceptions but that’s mostly due to strength runes and the ferocity change which unfortunately made critical damage traits and runes less relevant when the zerker amulet got a buff (went from 20% critical damage to 30% since 300 ferocity didn’t equal 30% critical damage like it used to)

This assumes the power user is doing nothing but trying to blow everything then twiddle thumbs until he can blow everything again. That is bad and that is burst and works on bad people, totally forgetting about sustained damage, which is where the weaker attacks come into play aka auto attacks.

Thieves with a bow are notorious for doing this they soften the target with bow auto attacks pressure you from afar and then when you blow dodges, important cooldowns or are low enough they weapon swap and open kitten you. This can and should be used by every direct damage build just in different ways mesmers with a GS do the same thing, .. If you don’t use auto attacks for pressure and only rely on the heavy hitting skills and that works then you aren’t playing very good players or you are a ele or power engi with alot of skills to go through.

Thieves definitely can make use of auto pressure probably better then anyone since it does damage and saves ini, and probably keeps their damage high with traits for extra damage over X ini or deal 1% damage per ini.

babazhook.6805:

>>You ever press deathly swarm on a necro just because? If so I don’t value your opinion.

I personally do not care whose opinion you value. It does not take anymore skill to press buttons on a power build then on a condition build.

My thief has ZERO invested in power line. His autoattack from his pistol does 1.4k damage. How is this considered skillful if pressed over and over again while pressing an autoattack for the bleeds on a condition build is “just button mashing”.?

My warrior has zero invested in Strength and has an attack of 2200. He gets 340 power just based on a trait called “Armored Attack” . How is choosing that trait more skillful then wearing dire and traiting in shadow arts?

There are warrior builds galore that do not even trait for strength or Critical strikes yet are still very effective. Why is that “skillful” ? they still press buttons when they fight, Just because they are different buttons does not mean it more “complicated”.

Pressing buttons is pressing buttons . it is not harder because one does condition damage and one does power damage.

Ones timing and when to do what might take a bit of practice but it no different in a condition build then in a power build. Condition builds still have to dodge. They still have to time their stealths if a thief. They still have to use all of their skills to maximize the chances of survival.

If they have more armor it more forgiving but wearing more armor does not preclude one from doing damage And a warrior with nothing in the strength trait line can still lay out a lot of damage even without going conditions. As can a lot of other classes.

No point skill in GW2 is >2.5k armor that is all you need to be considered skillful basically be a thief. Everything else isn’t skill so basically any build that has more then 2.5k armor. If you bunker your obviously not skilled you need to be pushing almost full zerker and who gets away with zerker better then anyone? Thieves and mesmers. So if you want to be skilled and still do condis you need to put on rampagers.

Skill is determined by how fast you can possibly die and if you don’t and kill then you have skill. That is how we measure skill in GW2.

Saturn.6591:

I’m currently leveling my Elementalist again, and was (also inspired by this thread) tinkering around on a roaming-build. That’s what I came up with:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFQQJAoYhcMaZ25wwBf0AdAB5xzvRBlzbnB-TlCFwANOgAOOBAsUPIjeiUq4Ub/hmKNIcgAlgKVmB4BAQGg8tA-w

What do you think about it?

Hmm it looks pretty good crit damage is a low for my taste. I have 190 critical damage with 10 air so 184 would be possible with your build. You have more power then I do though. Give it a test run and see how it plays but looks pretty solid.

For WvW

I prefer D/D but D/F is a good setup I find it good with a 6 earth build taking diamond skin. D/F is good with 6 Air also.

My main issue with D/F in WvW is the lack of burst abilities in PvE as other pointed out the damage difference is minimal in WvW not having fire grab and earthquake you notice a difference. I may need to play it again I did so for about a week and felt I relied on lightning whip much more with D/F and no ring of fire damage really hurt the pressure I could put on, Ring of fire is really good damage at in melee range.

I like focus it’s different but I really wish the fire abilities where better the rest of the set I like. Fire Aura is ok but long cd and the 3 skill is bad maybe up the burn duration to 2 second burst perhaps would help.

Aphrodesiac.2913:

sorrychief.2563:

tldr

OP stating what he sees different in spvp/wvw with ele since the update. One guy complaining about ele’s more or less, people pointing out flaws in his argument, then he brushes them off and still says everyone is wrong. Seems to be a common trend with said guy (not OP) in other threads. ._.

Pretty much this ^^ everyone has their own opinion but me and tormentum pretty much disagree with Byron’s assertions. He can’t be referring to sPvP because we know ele is used there now and is a stable class for top teams now. So if it isn’t dueling and just actually roaming chance encounters then I disagree with him completely. I think he is giving to much credit to thieves and mesmers and his reasons for thieves being strong is going all out offense and being able to escape is the same thing a Ele can do to a PU mesmer. A PU mesmer cannot stop anyone from leaving a fight any mesmer not in denial will tell you that. I have a mesmer and run it PU occasionally even in full zerk people can get away. Create thread in Mesmer Forums asking how you stop people from gettng away as PU and they will tell you that you can’t. I’m in all the forums for classes except rangers, mostly in the Ele and profession balance but I can give a pretty good perspective on each sub-forum.

killahmayne.9518:

oZii.2864:

killahmayne.9518:

^ This exactly

I hate when people say you can ignore PU Condi builds. You can’t. Scepter #3 is putting confusion on you, staff clones is putting a lot of bleeds and burns on you. Throw in a tormenting sigil in there. Maybe they are using perplexity runes. Maybe iDuelist is putting a ton more bleeds on you as well. And if you kill the clones that’s more bleeds on you, plus weakness. That’s any build that isnt a bunker build.

It’s probably better not to focus a PU Condi Mesmer, because of the torment on block, phase retreat, chaos armor, etc. And pretty how how tanky they are. But to say they do no damage if you aren’t attacking them is a myth. They might not have the highest DPS but the array of conditions that they can put on you is certainly deadly and over time the continuous pressure they can put on you because it is hard to pressure one of these mesmers wins out over time.

The best solution if possible is just to avoid the encounter altogether if you can, but in a group scenario you are seriously going to leave your servermates to die because there is a PU Condi Mesmer?

When they say ignore the PU mesmer people are saying you an engage in the fight and leave as long as you got a decent cleanse available to wipe any condis on you and the pu mesmer can’t really stop you especially the condition version.

You missed the point of my argument. My point was more so even if you are not attacking the PU Condi Mesmer it can still put out a lot of damage through staff clones, confusion, etc and if you do kill the clones it is counter-productive as well because you are just inflicting conditions on yourself. It doesn’t rely solely on clone deaths for DPS output as many people say because it has plenty of other damage sources. And people underestimate those damage sources. Yes if it is a 1v1 situation you can simply disengage from them if your class/build can do so I don’t deny that. But in a group fight you are seriously just going to run away and disengage because there is a PU Condi Mesmer, that is if other classes don’t catch up to you?

My point is. They still DO damage. And in many situations, it is more consistent and reliable then power builds and with more survivability.

I understand your point just stating when people say ignore the mesmer they are usually referring to 1v1’s.

In groups PU mesmers damage is diluted your clones are exploding on people that you don’t intend for them to blow up on. People are clumped AOE cleanses going off and usually the PU mesmer is one of the surviving classes while everyone else dies because it’s easier to kill everyone else.

From my experience when we go up against a 5-10 sized group unless the PU mesmer is over agressive and makes a big mistake where we can blow it up we just kill everyone else. Thieves and mesmers usually are the surviving classes from a group wipe in my experience. Why go after the stealth build when we can kill the ele’s, necros, guards, and warriors. I don’t think it happens on purpose it’s just the way it happens if I am fighting a PU mesmer in a group setting and he stealths to drop target I just go kill something else and his phantasm will probably just blow up in the aoe going off around us. There is no real point to wait till the mesmer reappears and find him when my dps is better spent on something I can see for the entire fight. It’s the same concept if you are duo roaming. If I am on my Ele and a friend is on his PU mesmer I know who will get most of the focus fire.

LordByron.8369:

Well i written another page to explain in detail why you are justjumping on the pvp bandwagon without considering differences between pvp and www.

But since you didn t read a word i wrote…i won t discuss this again.

Lets wait season 2 finish and you will see where you are wrong (and don t consider DUELING that is not WWW for a reason…its more pvp).

Just a final thing:
If you argue you can beat what have been considered the 2-3 most OP builds of a gamemode, you either gives detail or don t write it at all.

Ex how do you deal with phantams + conditions from a stealthed enemy that will heal as fast as you stop focusing?

How you prevent the profession with the best mobility and stealth to escape?
“pride” is not even Worth discussing….

Also you might want to read that link i posted some detailed posts about www mechanics will easily answer your points.

You are contradicting yourself if you consider a thief is so strong because it can always get away and if you kill one then he is bad then a PU mesmer is the weakest roaming class because it can’t stop anyone else from getting away.

That thread you linked is basically dueling 1v1 builds because roaming builds are 1v1 oriented.

Here is another link

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvX-Best-of-1V1/first#post4072844

Watch this thread for a few days and see how that thread and the one you link will almost look identical.

I don’t understand how you can say a Ele is weak and thief is strong because the Ele can’t stop the thief from getting away when a PU mesmer(from you linked thread) can’t stop anyone from getting away.

I can escape PU mesmers on my condi necro and guardian.

Depends on what classes/builds are there to duel and how goo the people playing them are.

Thorp.7982:

Use Hoelbrak or Pack for an alternative rune set. I believe oZii has shown the math somewhere between the difference of Pack and Strength.

I have a post on Reddit

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/24tzjz/a_look_at_runes_of_the_pack/

For a build like the OP’s I would recommend pack over strength for utility with fury and swiftness since he doesn’t have 2 in air for zephyr’s boon. You can maintain 100% swiftness uptime with pack and 6 arcana and you can even reach 30+ seconds if you are in a long enough fight.

I would even take the OP’s build with pack and go 4 earth for rock solid with ether, or you can take protection on aura and stone splinters.

I wouldn’t take pack over hoelbrak if I had zephyr’s boon but if I don’t have zephyr’s I would always chose pack. Fury can account for a 10%-15% dps increase depending on your fury uptime which with no zephyr’s boon is minimal.

yanniell.1236:

New ele in da room!

I’ll borrow this thread and ask about my D/D ele setup for WvW Roaming. I’ve just hit 80 yestarday and I’m having a blast with this class (4th toon), but being new to it, I’m having a hard time to find out the middle ground between survivability and good DPS.

Anyway, THIS is what I’m running right now. I’ve got to this setup after reading a lot of threads here, and I’d like to know if it’s acceptable for roaming, what can I do to improve it, changes, etc. Take into account that I have both guard stacks.

For exemple, I’m having doubts about 2 points in Water for Zephyr’s Boon or 2 points in Earth for Stone Splinters. Would love to hear which you guys think fits the build better and why.

About the runes, I know that Strength is the way to go, but I don’t have the money right now to get it, so, is Hoelbrak a good choice? Is there a better alternative?

I really appreciate the help! Thanks =)

Hoelbrak works here but if it where me I would run leek soup or lemongrass if you have the gold. That really makes the reduction shine and Hoelbrak can still push 20+ stacks of might easily I have them on my Sw/Shield + GS warrior build with sigil of strength on my sword and I get 10+ stacks from flurry and usually sit with 20+ with a 100 blades and the forceful gs trait though for not very long.

On ele hoelbrak are great. Your thresholds aren’t my flavor in your build hp is low for a 6 water ele. Throw some soldiers in your armor or soldier weapons, maybe drop sigil of fire for accuracy(it’s more dps) unless you hit multiple people often. I always have to have 30% chance to crit unless it just isn’t possible. Some of my beef armor sets have low crit chance but those are for tanking.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoIG4BQI/L2ORBKXN5TA-TFDBwA4VPgnKKpVCC4BA4VpjnTAQWlBq0C0SHgZlQ92fQnKEBAQA45C35K352sUALpMC-w

Here is a shell not what I run but similar to something I would put together with hoelbrak

LordByron.8369:

That proves my point.
You are Killing pve players.

Killing a thief only suggests the thief is bad.
Same for mesmers.

They are hardcounters to DD.

Try again in few weeks with season over (maybe some roamer with high www rank).

P.S: losing is a thing… Killing is another.
If you duel your opponent:
-Won t attack by surprise
-Won t flee
-you won t be interrupted
-etc etc.

Killing doesn’t suggest the thief is bad in the slightest some thieves get thirsty and stay because they think they can win. Lets call that ego something many players have. If the thief doesn’t leave and you kill him it doesn’t mean he was bad just that he decided to not run.

Also it is very possible to kill thieves with D/D. I fight amonatory often on my D/D ele and we usually Split our duels and if you go on the thief forums consensus is that Amon is a very good thief. Make a post titled “Is Amonatory a good thief” most of the thief forums know who he is. I don’t know if you just have troubles with thieves but for me the hardest fights are S/D w/ 6 trick (which amonatory runs) and a P/D condi thief only if they use body shot correctly but most don’t and try to 1 and 5 spam.

A PU power mesmer doesn’t hard counter a Ele because it is a attrition fight on both sides. It’s annoying and the mesmer might win most of the fights but it’s not like we are talking condi necro with a dagger and staff vs condi engi here. That is borderline hard counter for profession v profession. Shatter mesmer is really the only hard counter Mesmer has for D/D as in they should win 90% of the fights.

So what is your definition of hard condition use and easy condition use?

Here is a nice fact if I go full glass on my guardian I’m a healway build I’ll still crap damage compared to a guard with 6 valor.

A 6/6/2 does more damage then a 2/6/6 thief

Apply to elementalist same logic. So you either need a lot of might, move points or both.

Cogbyrn.7283:

oZii.2864:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If SR is a non-issue in sPvP and PvE, and it’s only causing a problem in WvW roaming/1on1 fights, and WvW roaming/1on1s aren’t a real game mode, then why such staunch opposition to tweaking it?

What if a class had an ability that let them go invulnerable for 3 seconds, then ported them to the nearest uncontested Waypoint. While invulnerable, they did not contribute to point cap/decap.

It isn’t a problem in PvE because it either resets the fight or locks them out of the fight if they port out. In sPvP it isn’t a problem because they don’t contribute to the objective then get sent to the beginning. It would really only be annoyance in WvW Roaming/1on1, and in that arena, it would be the absolutely dumbest thing ever that everyone would hate.

Is that fact that an ability is used mostly to troll small-scale WvW encounters justification for its existence? Is that good game design?

It sounds like people are just so accustomed to having their easy out that they can’t accept potentially getting caught by those they are trying to troll.

Does it need to be tweaked at all just because a few people don’t like it? Nothing that I have seen in this game has been tweaked or changed simply because of 1v1 duels and WvW roaming why start now.

With that attitude, all feedback on the forums is void, because a few people don’t like it. I’m assuming that’s the metric you’re going by, number of complaints on the forum, in which case everyone here is a vocal minority.

Otherwise, do you think the majority of people like how SR is designed and enjoy fighting against it? If so, you’re entitled to that opinion, but I wouldn’t personally think so.

Also, I feel like you’re limiting the skill’s potential by stubbornly trying to defend it without questioning what else it could be.

What if it was a smoke field of the same size that pulses blinds and blocks projectiles? It allows you to stay in melee against most classes that aren’t immune to condis at the time, it gives you protection against many ranged attacks, can be used on an sPvP point for utility, would be potentially useful to mitigate incoming damage in PvE, etc. It can be countered somewhat by abilities that aren’t projectiles but still can land in range, or having condi immunity in some fashion, etc.

Do we have to leave it as a troll 1v1 roaming ability?

It already is a aoe blind if you use a blast finisher in it and a life steal if you projectile finisher through it. A smoke field that pulses and blocks projectiles is already covered by Smoke Screen which can also give stealth with a leap finisher. I don’t see a reason to make Shadow Refuge do what Smoke Screen already does. Smoke screen is a very powerful utility even if alot of thieves don’t use it probably because refuge is better since you drop target and can get rez allies in stealth.