I honestly think the worst thing that happened to gwscr was when people started doing that map cross and jumping puzzle thing. Id prefer we stay strictly to dungeons and fractals. And dungeon/fractal bosses for solos. The plan is to use this subforum for submissions so lets avoid expanding to non dungeon/fractal related stuff.
Well with with 2 staff eles and 4 icebows its not needed to melee it for the full duration anyway. So it makes sense. Surprised you took the mesmer and only used 1 portal. Pretty nice run overall though.
a meeting was held. people decided about the rules and people made restricted rules. thats enough proof. the interest in restricted runs is/was obviously bigger. you cannot deny that. the amount of restricted records is all we need to look at.
if you want unrestricted runs to become a thing then organize a meeting, change the timer, and see how it turns out. gl with that.
Besides i really dont give a crap what the average player thinks.
how can you be so sure that people give a crap about what you think?
and how do you know that you arent an average player?
arrogance is not going to help you or anyone else.
Thats not proof. Unrestricted did have some interest but it never took off because of the timer rule. I feel like im talking to a brick wall. Obviously there was a preference for restricted. But if we had just introduced a ban on gemstore stuff and changed the timer rule i bet the result would of been the same. There were a few french guilds that did unrestricted but it never took off because of the timer and the split rulesets. You dont know for sure what would of happened because we didnt even get a chance to test the waters with just a small change.
ps. Trying to insult me doesnt exactly do your arguement any good.
You dont know that. Because like ive said several times already. The timer rules were not changed for unrestricted. That was the biggest problem before we changed the rulesets. So please dont assume it was the exploits that were the main reason. You have no proof.
Besides i really dont give a crap what the average player thinks. When i speedrun i do it for the competition and the only people i care about seeing it are those who also compete. Its not a spectator sport.
The reason for its failure was the stupid timer rules. It wasnt the exploits used. Remember when people started fully glitching arah p3? Yeah it was kind of lame. But it was funny and it was probably the most active competition weve ever had.
the competition was the most active after the restricted ruleset was done.
Long term activity maybe. But in the short term no. There was a huge surge of records right before the restricted ruleset. The rulesets were introduced because most of those records involved tactics that people deemed cheesy so a bunch of people complained. And the biggest reason for complaints was things like doing the jumping puzzle in arah, unlocking waypoints before starting the timer or having inconsistant start points for each path.
The timer rule was pretty stupid before and the new timing rules fixed all of those issues on their own. I still maintain the opinion that the only necessary change was the timer. Because that change would’ve cut out most of the jumping anyway apart from the small ones.
Back when fractals just started if you dc’ed you couldnt rejoin. That was fixed a long time ago. And there is no longer a set host. So as long as someone remains inside the fractal at all times. Everyone else can go to character select, repair and come back in. You can even change class if you want. Everyone can change if they want, just make sure you dont all do it at the same time.
Here is the thing. I wouldn’t mind seeing no-rule speedruns with everything allowed, like its the norm in other games.
We had that. It was a complete failure.
Just FYI if you want to do a run like that and record it you’re free to. Keep Running did it several times.
The reason for its failure was the stupid timer rules. It wasnt the exploits used. Remember when people started fully glitching arah p3? Yeah it was kind of lame. But it was funny and it was probably the most active competition weve ever had.
And i agree with Molch and Dub on this. Its stupidly inconsistent. But rather than asking for consistency and causing everything to be banned and ruining it further id rather just have inconsistant semi cheesed runs (what we have now). Still the ideal for me would be consistant and fun no rules. The only rules id agree with are no gemstore items and consumables because obviously not everyone has executioner axes (except rT).
For deciding when something gets contested i think its really just up to the approvers to take notice of it. And obviously they might miss something so if someone else spots an issue they can bring it up in the thread or in private. I dont think we need to plan this particular issue in too much detail as i dont imagine it will happen often and it should be pretty clear what happens when it happens.
For rule changes i think its probably best to just discuss rules when there has been significant changes. If there has been nothing for a long time. Then i think every 4-6 months should be sufficient. Obviously if there is sudden outcry for rule changes then a meeting should probably be held.
I think for resets a small meeting should be held or simply a discussion on the forums might be enough. A meeting if its not clear what should be done in all cases. But i dont think this should be held exclusively to approvers. In terms of what demands resets i think the current idea of if it can still be beaten then there is not much need for a reset unless there was a major change to game balance.
That’s a possible 15 seconds save for extremely bad players but a 5-10 second loss for good players. I don’t even see it being used in any serious speedrun and if, just to get a safe kill done and not to go for the quickest time possible. You’ve got two elementalists which both hit for more damage in the open, just like the thief – even on moving targets.
without a mesmer? k
You’d need a guardian anyway?!?
warrior “Magically” appearing on top of the wall and traiting for blocks reflect Kappa…..oh wait, this is not twitch
Well people were still submitting records before the rulesets changed and there was still some really cheesy stuff going on. Things only got changed because it suddenly went out of hand with harpy feathers and intentionally bugging p3 ritual. Ironically those few weeks before the rules got changed were the most active and competitive weeks weve ever had. Isnt that kind of funny?
And i dont see people boycotting records while its pretty clear they dislike 1 shotting lupi.
Its a competition. If you dont want to put the effort into being the best you dont deserve to win. If jumping puzzles were a requirement to win then i see no problem. If you look for excuses and call things lame then i dont consider you much different from PHIW’s. Its hypocritical no matter how justified you may be in saying something is lame. We are not showcasing skill, we are showcasing speed. Even if skill does come into it its not like we should go slower just to show off more skill. Thats something you would do for challenges not speedruns.
The thing with jumping puzzles is that you have to show how they are done in the record. That removes some of the barrier to entry as they can be copied from the videos. And there are a lot of really simply easy small ones. Like arah p3 over the wall at hunter crusher. And then theres ones which dont even go out of bounds of the map like the CoE doors and TA fw archer door.
Also the thing with records. I dont get why people would refuse to do something because a tactic involves something they hate. The whole idea of records is to play to win. You can avoid your 1 shotting of lupi and cheesy skips in your casual runs. The fun from a record comes from beating the previous record and going as fast as you can. The tactics used barely cross my mind in terms of enjoyment. Especially as even the most interesting tactics become boring after 5 hours of attempts. But the actual push for perfection is what keeps you going and makes it fun.
Any start time you decided was valid as long as it was before a major event was triggered (path select for example). So you could go unlock waypoints in arah and then start the time when you have the group ready to portal the path select guy up to lupi doors (arah p3). This was the reason the restricted ruleset was created and had its timing rules revised. It was changed so that the timer starts at the beginning of the instance so you cant prepare waypoints and do jumping puzzles beforehand etc. But people decided to not implement it on the unrestricted ruleset at the same time. And I still cannot understand why.
Looking back on it. It seems the main reason for the restricted ruleset being created was just because of arah p3 and arah p4 (along with some amusing harpy feather spam by LoD). The timer change should of been enough to improve the competition. But we will never know for sure. :P
Yes but the same cant be said about the rules defined in the unrestricted ruleset. I remember argueing for the same timing rules along with a few others. But because most people wanted to use restricted they decided to make the opposite so unrestricted that it had absolutely no potential for competition. Basically those of us who cared about unrestricted didnt exactly get the category we wanted.
Most of the people labelling it cheating are the ones that already call restricted runs exploit fests.
The unrestricted ruleset could have been fun if it had timing rules which matched restricted and gw1. But dividing the community between different rulesets doesnt help. Its just a shame the community is so full of BHB’s.
We would have done unrestricted if we had people to compete with. But there was a fault with the unrestricted ruleset. It didnt have the same starting rules as restricted (time starts when you move). Which kind of killed any hope for it. So we just went with where the timing rules made sense and where there was competition.
That wasnt because of rules that was because of a change in balance. There would be so many more portal tricks we could do if the rules were revised. People were stuck with an fgs mindset so they didnt think to try portals in the places that are currently being done.
And i agree hylek poison and harpy feathers arent creative. Harpy feathers got nerfed anyway so that wont ever be a major problem ever again. I dont mind the consumable rule. Thats a case of improving the competition for the public and so on. Its the restrictions on minor jumps and door skips that annoys me.
I doubt it. Noone was banned when people were doing that for records before the rules changed. And noone was banned for doing the much more obvious arah jumping puzzles in records. Besides the doors are not even an exploit as such. You simply run up the sloped wall and use a leap to get through the gap in the top. You still have to open the door to trigger the next event so its not like anyone has skipped an event. Its purely used for portals and such to shorten the next run for the rest of the group etc.
You can disagree with it all you like. But being like this makes the gw2 speedclear community a bit of a joke compared to every other game. And as i said some stuff has gotten boring since the restrictive rules. Rules limit innovation. Sometimes they are necessary to foster competition but i really do think people go a bit too far in gw2.
For example there are several portal tactics that i have thought of that would make pretty linear dungeons a lot more exciting. But we cant do them because someone has to jump over a closed door (CoE and TA reference here) before it opens. Because we cant do that the portal is completely useless and tactics are a lot more stale.
Terror is not better than the extra might up time from BiP in a PvE setting. If i was going to try terror i would swap lingering curse for it. Im not sure terror works on new bosses with indomitable. Its supposed to proc on bosses that have defiant even if it doesnt CC. But it doesnt proc on lupi who is immune for example.
Exactly. I think people worry far too much about whats intended or not. If somethings unintended the devs should fix it. If they dont then we should be free to use it. After all a speedrun isnt “go as fast as you can within these constraints”. Its simply “go as fast as you can”. The only thing i am against is using third party programs and hacks for obvious reasons. We made compromises with rules because of the publicity we get and we thought it would be better to not have such controversial records. Unfortunately some paths like CoE have become quite boring because of that.
Well thats kind of a waste of time. As has been said its really only a matter of checking no rules are broken. If something is missed then it can be disputed and then multiple should check. But for standard entries 1 person approving should be enough.
And as lame as copying tactics with no new innovations is. Its completely fair. I dont think we should say you cant take a record by a few seconds just from doing a slightly smoother run.
This is why you leave solos up to the players discretion. There are only a few bosses that people actually compete on with solos. The rest are done purely for self gratification, showcasing etc. Anyway i think we should discuss after the baseline of restricted dungeon runs is sorted and we have a better idea of how to implement extra categories on the site.
Most solo’ers tend to not care about rules as much. Proof is in all the consumables and extra gambits they sometimes use. The way it was on gwscr was that a player could post a solo and define the rules he made for himself. Someone else could try and beat it or they could do a new one with different rules. Because of this a lot of the stuff was a bit messy and was mostly forum based. Im not really sure how you would go about this. If you make restrictive set rules the chances are many solo’ers would just keep doing solos but not post them as records.
The attacks are triggered at certain ranges. You simply need to control where you are standing in correspondance with lupi to manipulate what attacks he can and cant do. However doing an offwall solo and preventing rapid fires will mean you will push him around the arena a bit. Which can be a dps loss for some classes.
You can see here in Dubs last guardian solo that he controlled when lupi used rapid fire by adjusting his position. And he did this on the wall. Basically moving away slightly when WoR was off cooldown and then moving in closer while it was on cooldown. A prime example of fully manipulating the boss to the players advantage.
I just had a thought regarding approval forums. As i said i dont think its necessary it can be done in this subforum. But I believe you have a comment section on the about page of your site. Would it be possible to do the same for the records page or maybe even a separate page? Just so we have a place to post a comment directly to the site incase it gets missed here. Im unsure if that would be favourable though. It might make the page look a bit cluttered.
Sounds good. Obviously we should start by moving the current records over. Do you have any idea when you would have the table done? Do you need any help with it or copying entries over?
Also keep in mind being on wall has nothing to do with it. You can trigger rapid fires on the wall aswell. And you can do no rapidfire offwall solos aswell.
I dont think having an approval forum is necessary. This subforum isnt exactly bursting with new topics everyday. Assuming we have sufficient helpers records should get approved quite quickly. If a guilds record gets overlooked and forgotten im sure they can bump the thread or contact someone directly to get it sorted. Its also good to have them posted here as its a good place to show off each record and get exposure.
Everything else i agree with. But rather than nomination i think people should just volunteer and then the community can post if they have an objection. Because i really wouldnt have the first clue who to nominate even from my own guild.
In the case of approvers we may have to compromise and allow even people who are involved in records to do the job. Obviously they shouldnt approve records for their own guild if it can be avoided.
Im happy to help with approving. But i have no experience using svn. Is it fairly easy to grasp?
I think its fine. I also think 1 shotting is fine. Adding pointless rules because something is considered lame defeats the whole point of a record.
I can understand gemstore consumables because they may not be available to everyone. And map glitching like hell would cause controversy. Im still of the opinion that the current rules are a bit too restrictive. They stopped the jumping over CoE doors and other similar tactics which actually made things quite interesting.
As already said proper management of dodges + shelter should be enough. You have renewed focus for emergencies and gs3 to escape aoe life drain. Also dont waste a dodge when you are using WoR (i assume thats obvious though).
Hope for something new. Otherwise community and friends is the only thing keeping me here. So currently i only really log on for daily or crafting some damask. If a friend invites me to a fractal or dungeon will im on i might tag along for a bit.
Most people would probably only settle on a nice number like +10 or +5 for personal use (Thats what i do but maybe im just a bit anal). So be careful when trying to sell. I was saving them originally and sold mine when i got to +10. It sold pretty fast. But if I had sold at +9 or +11 i probably would of had to wait much longer. Now i just sell the +1’s in bulk.
