Guild Wars 2

dancingmonkey.4902:

xDudisx.5914:

coglin.1867:

xDudisx.5914:

That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.

How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?

Where did I say that the amulet is defining the CC? I just compared the celestial engi with d/d ele and war which are the other 2 classes that use celestial. Pay more attention when reading.

What makes a PvP build celestial then?

jportell.2197:

Bolded part would be mesmers. Thanks and have a great day!

Why would you wanna bold something only to make an incorrect statement about it?

Anyone that plays this game knows that when people say celestial users or celestial builds it is reffering to d/d ele rifle engi and war.They are the only 3 classes that use celestial in the meta. If you are new to the game I understand your lack of knowledge about it.

coglin.1867:

xDudisx.5914:

That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.

How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?

Where did I say that the amulet is defining the CC? I just compared the celestial engi with d/d ele and war which are the other 2 classes that use celestial. Pay more attention when reading.

coglin.1867:

Amazing condition damage? You must be extremely easy to amaze. The build has mediocre direct damage + mediocre condition damage, that combine for “solid” damage out put. Not even remotely amazing damage out put.

LOL at the mediocre condition dmg. IP by itself is already a strong source of condi.

1)IP: 5.25 seconds of burning on a 10s cd
2)Pry bar: 6.5 seconds of 5stacks of confusion on a 12s cd
3)Poison Grenades: 4s poison per grenade (*3) pulsing on a 25s cd
4)Shrapnel Grenade: 13s of bleeding 1 stack per grenade 5s cd
5)Box of nails: pulsing low duration bleeding+ cripple stacks
6)Blunderbus: from 1 to 4 stacks of bleeding for 5.25s on a 10s cd

Non damaging conditions that help cover the other ones making hard/impossible for some builds to clear them:

1)Steel-Packed Powder: Vulnerability everytime a grenade hits. No internal coodlwon
2)Throw Wrench: vul+cripple on a 16.75s cd
3)Net Shot: 2.5s immob on a 10s cd
4)Some extra condi like immob from supply crate turret

More LOL at “mediocre direct dmg” pry bar easily hitting more than 4k. Jump shot has one of the best scaling coeficients with power in the entire game. Is almost an eviscerate.

Hard cc
Magnet traited = 1 pull on 20s cd
Suppy crate = 2s aoe stun on 180s cd also drops a net turret that will imobilize
Slick Shoes = knockdown ring of death on a 45 secons cd

Soft cc
Net shot = 2.5 s immob on a 10s cd
Freeze grenade = 2.5s each grenade (*3) on a 20s cd

Bonus: 1 blink every 10s

Engi has ranged atks and the best block uptime in the game. That means that when not ccing the enemy their are blocking

That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.

Leodon.1564:

xDudisx.5914:

What mesmer is not running full illusion traitline nowadays? It’s like find an ele without 6 points in arcane or an engi without supply crate.

As I said before, there are PLENTY of specs/mesmers that don’t have the illusion CD trait since its deep in the Illusions traitline. The only specs I know offhand that go that deep into Illusions is Shatter (obviously since the traitline is for shattering) and some phantasm spec variants.

Just look at at the first few pages of the Mesmer forums to see all the different builds being run by mesmers that aren’t shatter; Mantra, several Phantasm specs, PU, Chaotic Interuption lockdown to name a few. Mesmers are not locked into playing shatter only and have many different viable specs available to them.

Do you really believe every mesmer plays Shatter as your last comment implies?

Edit: Sorry to derail the topic and this will be my last post on this subject but it just bothers me when people manipulate words, take things out of context, or flat out lie about things in order to sway the masses.

If you want to count wvw and pve specs then yes. Not every build uses it. See a mesmer not running shatter in pvp is as hard as find a d/d ele that is not celestial.

@The Gates Assassin.9827

If cele is too strong, what part of it is too strong?

I think the 3 different celestial amulet users have different strong points. The problem is on the builds and their associated traits/skills, not on the amulet/stats itself.

Warrior: Overall the most balanced celestial class. High telegraphed skills combined with addrenaline and might nerf made hambow pretty balanced. The problem now is shoutbow. The dmg and support via condi cleanses is ok the problem is that the healing is way too high. Celestial shouts will heal for about 2.1k while a cleric 2.5k. The extra healing you get does not seen significant enough to make someone think in going cleric instead of celestial or soldier. They should reduce the base healing for the trait and encrease the way it scales.

d/d ele: Their condi cleanse, healing and group support is fine. They spend all traits and utilities for that. The biggest problem is the dmg and perma vigor. Celestial d/d does too much dmg for a build with such a high focus in sustain/support. Perma vigor is also bad for a build that gets 1 free evade every 15s.

engi: biggest problems are IP, slicky shoes and gear shield. If the enemy has no stab or blink available slicky shoes = death sentence. Considering cele engi has a 2s aoe stun, 1 pull and 1 short cooldown knockback it is pretty reasonable that someone will have to use the stab/blink before anyway.

Bran.7425:

Boggs.6482:

remove some blast finishers and ele will be balanced. cele warrior does not feel overpowered to me, nor does cele engi.

Funny thing is a think there is a thread going on the Ele subforum asking for another skill to be made into a blast finisher.

They were asking a blast finisher for staff. While d/d has 2 blast fields on weapon skills staff has only 1. If the ele is using staff it also doesn’t have perma vigor as d/d.

The reason you see a lot of celestial is only because the abundance of d/d eles and engis. Those 2 builds happen to be optimal when running celestial. The problem again is not the stats is the d/d and engi skills.

Take a look at the numbers of non ele/engi that used celestial.

Nerf the amulet because of 2 builds and therefore hurting any other class build that try to use celestial is just dumb. Imagine if every time that they have decided to nerf thief they had nerfed zerker amulet instead?

BlazinFyre.2410:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-02-26-guild-wars-2-getting-a-first-person-camera

Guild Wars will apparently be getting a first-person view. sounds harmless right? well I say no just because of the part which lets you use it in any game mode. there are already bads in pvp, now imagine if they had no peripheral vision. It would be soloq hell! in a game with pvp like guild warts, 3rd person is necessary! pls if this is true, rethink the decision to make it enabled in pvp.

If you don’t like the first person camera then just don’t use it.

One positive thing about eles is that they don’t have any cc on fire attunement. If this deffience bar becomes something important we might be able to do something other than lava font+autoatck most of the time and see more usage of all attunements.

Leodon.1564:

xDudisx.5914:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

xDudisx.5914:

I didn’t say they open with that I just listed the simple combo. Decoy+mass invis is a lot of stealth for a class that has a insta cast teleport on a 8s cd and insta cast immune.

Decoy has a 40s cd while mass inv has 90s, a thief can stealth several times in this time frame.
The “insta cast teleport” is a really low range teleport that has absolutely nothing on a thief’s shortbow 5, which is also spammable.
I don’t even know how you can complain about a mesmer having a lot of stealth when thief has more stealth and more ways of kiting around or disengaging from a point.

40s? Every mesmer has the minor trait that reduces illusion cd so it is 32s. Shortobow #5 costs 6 initiative, if they use too much they can’t use other skills. Also why use thief as example if this class in the only natural counter to mes? Comparing mes mobility with everything else it has crazy mobility.

@ xDudisx: Another exaggeration. You have to go 3 pts into Illusions (generally for shatter specs) to get the illusion CD trait. There are PLENTY of specs/mesmers that don’t have this trait.

On the subject of stealth, let’s not forget that Rangers using LB have stealth on 12 second cooldown.

What mesmer is not running full illusion traitline nowadays? It’s like find an ele without 6 points in arcane or an engi without supply crate.

Ranger stealth only procs if the arrow hits the enemy it can be blocked, reflected, LoS, evaded, etc.

serenke.4806:

xDudisx.5914:

Are you saying mesmer has no passive or rng? Tell me more about how you get 1 free clone every dodge with no internal cd or how your ilusions inflict bleeding on crit or about the fire+air sigil, etc..

It’s not a “free” clone because you have to use a trait slot for it.
Also, clones only bleed on crit if you have spent points in dueling.
I know you have no clue about how mesmer works but you should really try to write your comments to at least appear informed.

As for celestial, i think it’s not OP as some say, but looking at PvP lately it should probably be nerfed just for the sake of the game.
Celestials are perfect to queue up alone, self-sufficent, no need to rely on team mates. But if you take the team aspect of it, PvP becomes less interesting.

Oh first you qq about " randoms burns/bleeds/poisons procs everywhere " and passive stuff then after I point out the passive stuff in your class you justify because of traits? Well all other classes have passives because some sigil or trait. A mesmer using air+fire+doom has 3 passive only from the sigils. Mesmer as passive as any other class. Deal with it.

You run a build with no condi clear because you choose to do so. Mesmer have immunes, blinks, stealths, clones and does very easy to land ranged dmg don’t need condi clear.

inhearth.2038:

The issue is passive gameplay.

I play Mes since beta, and have been playing it in PvP too for about 2 years. I’m still learning a lot of things about the class, but I can consider myself a veteran Mes player already (1,6k games). I know how to adapt my rotations, how to burst quickly, how to use every weapon, and most important: how to kite and avoid almost all damage from any enemy.

But when it comes to passive procs its just stupid, and no matter how well I do, there are randoms burns/bleeds/poisons procs everywhere and I just can’t counterplay it or avoid it all, because yeah passive gameplay just happens and I have to deal with it kittenter Mes that has 0 con removal, and in the end of the fight at the log combat after I die there are 1xk burn dmg / 1xk bleed dmg and 0 other sources of dmg.

Then get some passive gameplay and add it to the baby first amulet: Cele, and you will have lot of room for mistakes and incentive to keep being carried by kitten t.h.a.t j.u.s.t h.a.p.p.e.n.s with 0 effort ¯\(?)/¯.

This game is full of passives that save your kitten all the time, and it is just not good for a game that is based on Action Combat. You know why Mes and Thieves are almost non existent in the meta? Yeah, they lack some of the strongest passive gameplay that other classes have. But one of the biggest examples of how a class can be underpowered by not having passive gameplay: Necros, that have 0 vigor, 0 protection, 0 regen, and almost 0 passive con removal (heal, Staff, 4 Scepter and one signet? All skills that require correct usage) or other source of passive gameplay.

Are you saying mesmer has no passive or rng? Tell me more about how you get 1 free clone every dodge with no internal cd or how your ilusions inflict bleeding on crit or about the fire+air sigil, etc..

Bank space is enough because there is the colectible tab.

Knighthonor.4061:

Johje Holan.4607:

Tongku.5326:

Simon.3794:

it will probably take the whole pvp population to join in order to start a match

^^

Yup. I agree, it sure will.

And lack of these and other features go a long way to make sure that population size stays that way.

Now this is interesting. Currently PvP is 5v5. And the population is small.

Yet people claim that more people prefer small matches. How is that?

You would think that if the existing PvP mode is small teams and that is what most people prefer then the PvP population would be large.

The small scale PvP community is the niche in MMOs. Large scale PvP has always been the more popular. Usually people try to debunk this by using the argument of Non-MMOs such as League of Legends, but in most MMOs the more populated form of PvP has always been the bigger battles.
In World of Warcraft for example, AV which is 40vs40 was always the most popular until the developers nerfed it to cores players into Arena 5v5,3v3, 2v2, which they later admitted was a terrible mistake that can’t be undone.

In GW2 the main selling point was WvW and not the 5v5 SPVP that was advertised.

Exactly, low scale pvp been the only option is bad for the mmorpg. Balance almost everything around it is another problem. Sometimes it feels like the huge focus in 5v5 spvp in detriment of other areas like wvw/pve/guildis is like kitten hurting the game as a whole.

The game fails to develop its mmorpg pvp potential because there is always the ghost of wannabe ezport walking around dennying other pvp modes to exist.

I think they have considered it. It is not like they will stun the entire party at the same time anyway. This might encourage less skipping or at least make mistakes less forgiving.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

xDudisx.5914:

I didn’t say they open with that I just listed the simple combo. Decoy+mass invis is a lot of stealth for a class that has a insta cast teleport on a 8s cd and insta cast immune.

Decoy has a 40s cd while mass inv has 90s, a thief can stealth several times in this time frame.
The “insta cast teleport” is a really low range teleport that has absolutely nothing on a thief’s shortbow 5, which is also spammable.
I don’t even know how you can complain about a mesmer having a lot of stealth when thief has more stealth and more ways of kiting around or disengaging from a point.

40s? Every mesmer has the minor trait that reduces illusion cd so it is 32s. Shortobow #5 costs 6 initiative, if they use too much they can’t use other skills. Also why use thief as example if this class in the only natural counter to mes? Comparing mes mobility with everything else it has crazy mobility.

Jerus.4350:

xDudisx.5914:

phys.7689:

xDudisx.5914:

phys.7689:

xDudisx.5914:

Finally a possible nerf to frostbow #5. Good job Anet. A buff to the smart usage of CC and a nerf to open a fight with icebow. Defience bar seems to be one of the best pve changes anet has ever done.

Jon: When we wrote the original combat blog post, a lot of people assumed we didn’t want the trinity. It wasn’t an anti-trinity, it was more of a case of “this is how we want to do this type of combat and we want these roles and we want them to be flexible.

one thing i will say, they seem to be thinking builds has something to do with berzerker.
Unless the amount of break you get scales with duration, you will still be King of CC wearing berzerker.

I wonder if any other conditions are now going to be counted as CC for the break bar
like immobilize or cripple.

Warriors have weapons like main hand mace and hammer that are never used in pve because they don’t have such a good autoatk and don’t focus that much in pure dps.

If they start making people focus more in those weapons will reduce the oveall dps. Making fights take a bit longer will make them a bit harder for people running no defensive stats.

Stats are one of the most important thing in the build. Go with a full nomad and see the dmg difference it makes even using same traits and same skills.

only dps stats have a strong effect on builds
A CC guy will CC virtually the same whether on zerker or any other gear
A support guy will support virtually the same whether on zerker or any other gear except for heals.

Some weapons do provide better CC than others, that much is true, but you still may as well be using zerk hammers and zerk maces

What happens is that the CC traits are not the same as dps traits for most classes. If they reduce the overall dmg it is great. If the meta is not able to use all the traits giving extra percentage of dmg than the dps gap with other builds will be reduced.

They can’t fix everything at once. They are doing small steps in the right direction. Fgs/norna elite nerf, crit dmg->ferocity nerf, might nerf, now defience bar to nerf frost bow at start. The new content like champs with very high armor so people use more condis, bosses that you can’t crit, etc.

You mean the ferocity change that resulted in an increase in DPS when scaled down and a slight decrease at the top… sure…great idea…it’s not like it lead to 8s solo kills of spider queen or anything.

It reduced the dmg at lvl 80 content. All the new content they are adding is lvl 80. Some day they will eventually fix the scaling for old low lvl dungeons too.

rotten.9753:

xDudisx.5914:

Well maybe that way eles would try to spend some traits into offensive traitlines and use offensive amulets?

Offensive eles are thieves/mesmers meat. As long as those two professions reign supreme in zerker department, ele is forced into bunker/bruiser.

But everytime someone asks for a balance/nerf to zerker mesmer and thief a crowd of players come QQing on the forums.

jportell.2197:

xDudisx.5914:

Donkeyhacks.4391:

Anybody explain to me why every mesmer ive met today has been able to blow me up in 2-5seconds today? ive not had any problems with mesmers recently now every mesmer seems to be god tier

It is not recent a buff. It is a problem that hapens for months/years. Stealth>sumon 3 clones-> melee instacast F1-> profit.

And people QQ about ranger been easy to play and bursting too fast. For a zerker build with a lot of offensive traits 2ranged mesmer has way too many immunes/evades and blinks. Luckly thieves are still around to counter their infinity blinks with infinite gap closers.

Lmao the standard shatter mes has one maybe two stealths, and a good one never opens with them. Double ranged shatter exists because mes cannot survive melee right now.

I didn’t say they open with that I just listed the simple combo. Decoy+mass invis is a lot of stealth for a class that has a insta cast teleport on a 8s cd and insta cast immune.

Shiyo.3578:

Nerfing ele’s damage further would make the class really boring to play imo. d/d playstyle is already boring enough as is.

Well maybe that way eles would try to spend some traits into offensive traitlines and use offensive amulets?

phys.7689:

xDudisx.5914:

phys.7689:

xDudisx.5914:

Finally a possible nerf to frostbow #5. Good job Anet. A buff to the smart usage of CC and a nerf to open a fight with icebow. Defience bar seems to be one of the best pve changes anet has ever done.

Jon: When we wrote the original combat blog post, a lot of people assumed we didn’t want the trinity. It wasn’t an anti-trinity, it was more of a case of “this is how we want to do this type of combat and we want these roles and we want them to be flexible.

one thing i will say, they seem to be thinking builds has something to do with berzerker.
Unless the amount of break you get scales with duration, you will still be King of CC wearing berzerker.

I wonder if any other conditions are now going to be counted as CC for the break bar
like immobilize or cripple.

Warriors have weapons like main hand mace and hammer that are never used in pve because they don’t have such a good autoatk and don’t focus that much in pure dps.

If they start making people focus more in those weapons will reduce the oveall dps. Making fights take a bit longer will make them a bit harder for people running no defensive stats.

Stats are one of the most important thing in the build. Go with a full nomad and see the dmg difference it makes even using same traits and same skills.

only dps stats have a strong effect on builds
A CC guy will CC virtually the same whether on zerker or any other gear
A support guy will support virtually the same whether on zerker or any other gear except for heals.

Some weapons do provide better CC than others, that much is true, but you still may as well be using zerk hammers and zerk maces

What happens is that the CC traits are not the same as dps traits for most classes. If they reduce the overall dmg it is great. If the meta is not able to use all the traits giving extra percentage of dmg than the dps gap with other builds will be reduced.

They can’t fix everything at once. They are doing small steps in the right direction. Fgs/norna elite nerf, crit dmg→ferocity nerf, might nerf, now defience bar to nerf frost bow at start. The new content like champs with very high armor so people use more condis, bosses that you can’t crit, etc.

phys.7689:

xDudisx.5914:

Finally a possible nerf to frostbow #5. Good job Anet. A buff to the smart usage of CC and a nerf to open a fight with icebow. Defience bar seems to be one of the best pve changes anet has ever done.

Jon: When we wrote the original combat blog post, a lot of people assumed we didn’t want the trinity. It wasn’t an anti-trinity, it was more of a case of “this is how we want to do this type of combat and we want these roles and we want them to be flexible.

one thing i will say, they seem to be thinking builds has something to do with berzerker.
Unless the amount of break you get scales with duration, you will still be King of CC wearing berzerker.

I wonder if any other conditions are now going to be counted as CC for the break bar
like immobilize or cripple.

Warriors have weapons like main hand mace and hammer that are never used in pve because they don’t have such a good autoatk and don’t focus that much in pure dps.

If they start making people focus more in those weapons will reduce the oveall dps. Making fights take a bit longer will make them a bit harder for people running no defensive stats.

Stats are one of the most important thing in the build. Go with a full nomad and see the dmg difference it makes even using same traits and same skills.

Finally a possible nerf to frostbow #5. Good job Anet. A buff to the smart usage of CC and a nerf to open a fight with icebow. Defience bar seems to be one of the best pve changes anet has ever done.

Jon: When we wrote the original combat blog post, a lot of people assumed we didn’t want the trinity. It wasn’t an anti-trinity, it was more of a case of “this is how we want to do this type of combat and we want these roles and we want them to be flexible.

aspirine.6852:

Lootbags should contain everything in the game. Including tickets for your choice of nourishment.

Or they could sell said tickets with badges of honor.

Donkeyhacks.4391:

Anybody explain to me why every mesmer ive met today has been able to blow me up in 2-5seconds today? ive not had any problems with mesmers recently now every mesmer seems to be god tier

It is not recent a buff. It is a problem that hapens for months/years. Stealth>sumon 3 clones→ melee instacast F1→ profit.

And people QQ about ranger been easy to play and bursting too fast. For a zerker build with a lot of offensive traits 2ranged mesmer has way too many immunes/evades and blinks. Luckly thieves are still around to counter their infinity blinks with infinite gap closers.

BlackBeard.2873:

How about energy is changed to just give vigor for 5s (or 4s to prevent it being too much with boon duration)? This would keep mesmers and necros (and other builds that need the dodges) completely viable (same number of dodges per second) while making them useless in classes that could potentially abuse it (now or in the future) like ele, engie, and warrior?

I like this. And as a boon there is place for counterplay removing it. Best suggestion abaout sigil of energy posted in this topic.

Supreme.3164:

Skills with ample counterplay need no nerfs, I can play any profession you want and will dodge burning speed no problem any time you want( ofc don’t expect me to dodge a burning speed if I’m against 3-4 people or get perma immobilized by a med guardian+ entangle ranger)

Lower the base dmg of LW and make it scale with power? what difference would it make?A celestial ele not only has high base power but also crit chance and crit dmg, other amulets would increase that base power even more, with your suggestion a soldier/zerker/valk ele will end up doing even more dmg on LW

Being able to outrange an ele while he uses shocking aura or similar skills is arguably not difficult at all, being a ranger 2nd main with survival poison master shortbow and being a1st main ele, I find rather easy to predict both if faced as opponents, got a warrior also with which I can win against cele eles as well, and recently started a necro, will use wells builds with time.

Regardless do you really expect the devs to nerf dmg on auto-attacks and main skills( and increase their CD also)?How an ele should win at all? By staring at you?
Sorry to disappoint you….but that will never happen, no matter how many nerf threads you write

1)Celestial has less power than soldier and zerker. Both can might stack. It is possible to tweak base dmg and scaled with power numbers so zerker/soldier keep same dmg but lower power celestial does less dmg

2)Not everyone has a ranged option.

3) You talk like if d/d was weak when it is acutally one of the close to god mode 1v1 builds in the game. Last patch they nerfed drake’s breath, sigil of battle and might for a reason.

Supreme.3164:

1) Considering the build you say? Alltraits are into defensive traitlines, celestial is a hibrid not supposed to hit that hard. Axe is the best dps autoatk for warrior. Almost every autoatk has a lower dps than that. Also the range for axe is 130 and LW is 300.

2) It is a firefield on a very low cd and lasts 6s. Scape skill on very high cooldown? Lightning flash 32, armor of earth 60s, cleansing fire 32s.

3)4s on a 25s cd is equal to 16% of the time that you wont be able to atk. That in the class with the highest protection uptime, perma regen and one of the top healing per second in the game is too much. Stab normally has higher cooldown and only prevent cc not dmg. Reflect only works against projectiles. The aura works against anyone that is not using stab.

6) thief autoatck is one of the strongest in the game but dagger only hits up to 2 targets and is 130 range. LW is 300 range. Warrior axe is also 130 range and is a chain skill. You want to compare LW with a zerker thief and mesmer and say it is ok? No mesmer and thief are doing more dmg because they are zerker not because LW is weak.

1) So now you want to nerf the amulet, you want to nerf dmg on d/d….or simply you want to nerf everything( which is what I believe); the skills by you mentioned deal the highest dmg on d/d regardless of the amulet. I could go soldier or valkrye and you would still be here asking for nerfs on d/d…in all truth you want to nerf any threatening aspect of the D/D spec

2) Ele for starter had always had the best fire fields in the game, others have fire fields too ( ranger, warrior, guardian); and it’s your choice to walk into them, same argument can be made for any aoe ground attack you walk into, like: wells, chaos field, combustive shot and….yeah even turret engy deployement

-Lightning flash is 40s CD, earth of armor is 75s CD and Cleansing fire is 40s Cd, out of all of them only armor of earth is a stunbreaker, no ele takes cantrip mastery I believe as that would reduce your condi clear potential. Mesmer have blink on 30s/stunbreaker for example, thieves have shortbow and there is more.

3) Shocking aura is 1s stun every 2s on mele attacker, again your choice to attack at mele range, all profession save engy ( who has range by default) can switch to range attack and maintain pressure, nobody force to keep a mele offensive. To say shocking aura works against everything is a wicked lie

6) Already said this in point 1, what you’re really asking for is to remove any threat potential from ele and this only for personal reasons it seems

It is possible to nerf LW to hurt more cele than other builds. Just reduce the base dmg and increase the way it scales with power. Where did I say celestial amulet needs a nerf? What needs a nerf is d/d skills.

Most cases you are almost melee dmg because the node is very small, that aura is too strong for such a small coodown.

PopeUrban.2578:

Mega Skeleton.8259:

Simon.3794:

and people saying on crit sigils should be brought down, i mean, it’s not the sigils.
it’s thief and mesmers…

just like it’s not might.
it’s engis and eles

I say just add more on-hit sigils than changing the crit ones. More variety is better and it gives a unique value to precision. (and fury)

Precision and fury already have a unique value in the form of on crit traits and greater DPS. Those are far easier to balance as they sit in a more controlled design space, where as sigils do not. Those sigils don’t add variety at all, and in fact they actively decrease variety by requiring builds that want to utilize them to emphasize critical hits in ways that may not be internally consistant with their class design simply to be able to use a crucial sigil.

Contrast this with all other sigils, which are universally applicable regardless of build. Sure, you might not want to put a + bleed duration sigil on a build without bleeds, but your build does not directly control the access to the sigil’s effects. Crit sigils require, rather than incentivize over-reliance on a particular stat setup because of the double-rolling nature of first having to crit, and then having to roll the dice on the sigil, making them completely unreliable and unusable unless your build includes an inordinately high amount of crit chance.

An on hit sigil is universally accessible to all builds, despite not being overly useful to some and an on-crit build is not. In a combat system which prizes active defenses and a lack of passive defenses, and a lack of randomness influencing the outcome of battles, crit sigils are design anomalies that work against rather than in favor of the overall design of the combat system, and the potential for build variety.

^ THIS

@The Gates Assassin.9827

1) Still think doom needs a smal nerf in duration or make it proc on hit/crit instead of on swap.
2)agreed, they are too strong

3)I think quite the opposite. On very defensive builds it is ok. If they are already defensive 1 extra dodge won’t change much. The problem is the extra survivability it gives to some heavy offensive builds that spec nothing in defense but the sigil +vigor covers that.

Supreme.3164:

1)For a hibrid it does too much direct dmg on that skill
2) 15s is too low. Focus for example has skills with a minimun cooldown of 20s
3)Tell the enemy to stop atacking for 4s is the most stupid “counter play” I have seen in the forums. Lets go ahead and say that any skill is balance because you can always run away.
6) For a hibrid jack of all trades ele is doing way too much direct dmg on lightning whip. It also has a good range and is one of the easiest “melee” #1 skills to land on the game.

The argument that “you can dodge” is not valid. If a skill did 150k dmg applied 25 stacks of vul, gave 25stacks of might and had a 0.75s I could say the same and say it is balanced because you could dodge. Following that logic any skill that is not insta cast is balanced. Looking at the counless changes they to dozens of skills in the past we see that it is not true.

Not all the time people will have endurance to dodge everything, it is not a 1v1 all the time. Not every build has a free dodge from weapons skills like d/d. Also not every build has perma vigor like d/d ele.

1) Too much direct dmg? We should take in consideration your build, and ele stats at the time of the hit, but going by number alone, burning speed can deal as much direct dmg as a warrior axe-autottack full chain
2) Focus flame wall is aoe ground target and deal no dmg, focus is a defensive set up where d/d is a pure pressure set up with escape skills on very high CD….what argument is even that?
3)Being unable to stop attacking for 4s is one of the biggest L2P issues in the game, unless you’re telling me that it’s ok to blow all your CC on somebody that has stability up, it’s ok to blow all your condition on a warrior that uses berserker’s stance, it’s ok to range attack a an engineer that he’s reflecting….etc etc etc etc…the list goes on but the huge L2P issue remains
6)Compared to what? Currently lightning whip deal far less dmg than a thief/warrior/Mesmer auto-attack, thief and Mesmer are zerker ofc….again the numbers are completely ok, there is no argument again

Nobody can dodge everything, and it’s no the game problem if you can’t keep tab of what you’re facing and you don’t need vigor to dodge what needs to be dodged

1) Considering the build you say? Alltraits are into defensive traitlines, celestial is a hibrid not supposed to hit that hard. Axe is the best dps autoatk for warrior. Almost every autoatk has a lower dps than that. Also the range for axe is 130 and LW is 300.

2) It is a firefield on a very low cd and lasts 6s. Scape skill on very high cooldown? Lightning flash 32, armor of earth 60s, cleansing fire 32s.

3)4s on a 25s cd is equal to 16% of the time that you wont be able to atk. That in the class with the highest protection uptime, perma regen and one of the top healing per second in the game is too much. Stab normally has higher cooldown and only prevent cc not dmg. Reflect only works against projectiles. The aura works against anyone that is not using stab.

6) thief autoatck is one of the strongest in the game but dagger only hits up to 2 targets and is 130 range. LW is 300 range. Warrior axe is also 130 range and is a chain skill. You want to compare LW with a zerker thief and mesmer and say it is ok? No mesmer and thief are doing more dmg because they are zerker not because LW is weak.

jportell.2197:

Arken.3725:

Except when you have 65% plus access to protection and arguably the best condition-removal in the game, that weak defense isn’t exactly correct. So if we’re talking about investing everything else into sustain, can you name any other profession that can do it just as well if not better when investing as much?

edit: Again to bring up a prime example would be bunker Guardian. It had decent sustain and superb support with investing as much into self-sustain as elementalists do. That was it. It had very little in the department of CC/Mobility/Burst/Condition dmg. That’s how it should be.

My issue with what is going on with celestial/ele/engi is this.

Elementalists are traited HEAVILY into boon duration uptime and condition removal (that’s great good for them!).

• They take the might stacking runes (hoelbrak), now they have great condi clear on top of reduced condi duration (well now most condi classes can’t face them).

• Then they have the HIGHEST absolute highest protection uptime in this game, which is easily reapplied over, and over, and over. This eliminates any direct damage class that can’t boon strip, and greatly hinders the direct damage classes that can boon strip because of how quickly protection is reapplied through, auras, armor of earth, earth attunement ETC.

• They have very high fury/might uptime between attunement swapping and fire field blasting this gives them the same offensive stats as a player using a berserkers amulet and they still are very hard to kill because of their investment into condi removal and boon duration.

• They never have to worry about managing their heals. Yes the signet of restoration was garbage in PvP before, but now to reset a fight all an ele has to do is RTL (or Fiery rush+whirlwind away) then spam lightning AA for 5 seconds and then they can come back in, if you capped the point in the time they were gone it’s no skin off their nose because they have enough CC to at least get the point decapped again.

So the problem with at least D/D Cele Ele right now isn’t that they are a jack of all trades, they are masters of all trades.

- Highest uptime on most damage condition in the game? Check
- Highest condi clear for themselves and teammates in the game? Check (oh bye bye bunker guards)
- Highest uptime on protection in the game? Check (oh not too mention frost aura reduces damage by even more)
- Ability to maintain all offensive and defensive boons on themselves allowing ridiculous damage output for little to no risk. Check (say good bye burst classes.)

So please stop saying they are the jack of all trades masters of none when they are indeed the masters of all trades. I would go into engi, but that is for another post.

The defensive part is ok because they are traiting everything +utilities into defense.
The problem is one the fact that they can still do very high direct and condi dmg.

A rune like hoelbrak gives too much defensive ability (-20%condi) for a power based rune that already gives might and might duration. No wonder hoelbrak is in the top 3 most expensive runes on the trading post.

Supreme.3164:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

All skills you’ve mentioned have ample counterplay and lightning whip it’s the only decent auto-attack on eles and will remain so. On some points in particular….

1) Dmg happen at the end and there is a clear animation, plenty of time to dodge.. an obvious L2P issue here, I can dodge steal, C&D, overshoot and most attacks that have far less tell
2) And by how much you would increase this CD?
3)The stun happens on attack, again a L2P issue, and daze in this game last 2s at least where stun last 1s every 2s and the aura last 4s, an increased CD would bring more daze to ele and that would be beneficial even more than current stun

1)For a hibrid it does too much direct dmg on that skill
2) 15s is too low. Focus for example has skills with a minimun cooldown of 20s
3)Tell the enemy to stop atacking for 4s is the most stupid “counter play” I have seen in the forums. Lets go ahead and say that any skill is balance because you can always run away.
6) For a hibrid jack of all trades ele is doing way too much direct dmg on lightning whip. It also has a good range and is one of the easiest “melee” #1 skills to land on the game.

The argument that “you can dodge” is not valid. If a skill did 150k dmg applied 25 stacks of vul, gave 25stacks of might and had a 0.75s I could say the same and say it is balanced because you could dodge. Following that logic any skill that is not insta cast is balanced. Looking at the counless changes they to dozens of skills in the past we see that it is not true.

Not all the time people will have endurance to dodge everything, it is not a 1v1 all the time. Not every build has a free dodge from weapons skills like d/d. Also not every build has perma vigor like d/d ele.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

@ TheFamster.7806

I disagree that stability and might are only team based boons. We have builds that can get 20+ stacks by themselves. Most stability sources are caster only skills, like armor of earth, balance stance, lich form, etc.

Might is extremely good even in 1v1. The might nerf was needed because too many classes were stacking it and becoming close to god mode against non meta builds.

For vigor we have the same issue as might had. Look how almost all meta builds have very high vigor uptime from passive minor or adept traits.

meta d/d cele has perma vigor
meta mes has 50%+ vigor uptime
meta engi has 50% vigor uptime
thief has about 50% vigor uptime
medi guard has 50% vigor uptime
shoutbow has perma vigor

Only class that doesn’t have vigor is necro and this forces them to use sigil of energy. The boon itself is so strong that almost all meta builds have it up at least 50% of the time. This is pigeonholing the build variaty. Forcing players to spend traits in te must have trait line to obtain vigor.

TheFamster.7806:

xDudisx.5914:

No because more nerfs will lead to more nerfs on other professions’s skill given Gw2’s very active combat. In current meta we complain about sustains when it is cele vs cele which often happen as part of rotation, but with the added mix of other classes rotating into the node compromises celestial and dps roles. By nerfing things you are in a way encouraging the entire rework of boons/conditions, which is almost impossible given that people have been playing this game over 2+ years and sudden change of the entire system will shake the very foundation of gw2 active combat.
Moreover gw2 pvp is also tied with wvw and pve, and by dictating your position of view you will be responsible for changing the entire Gw2 population just based on your opinion given the synergy of skill balance gw2 has on other modes as well. Instead of nerfing things to ground in order you should be more positive on finding out which skills/utiltiies/boons/conditions aren’t used in ideal situation and try to build upon current meta especially with incoming of new profession.
Unless you can change everything in few weeks in a way and expect everyone in gw2 community to adapt, you should not be proposing such dramatic nerf to any combat related contents in gw2

I don’t understand why you say nerf/rework/buff for a boon or condi is not possible. They just did that last patch. Might went from 35 to 30 a nerf of 14%. In last POI livestream they said the are reworking stability. We are just discussing possible solutions on the forums. Nothing should be out of the table or treated as untouchable.

TheFamster.7806:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Exedore.6320:

Chaith.8256:

Doom is most effective against Eles/Wars/Engineers who have stacked multiple sources of sustain (traits, regen, highly effective healing abilities).

Shaving Doom […] would probably only solidify the status quo more.

But the most prominent users of Sigil of Doom are those same high sustain builds; not the alternate builds, most of which are DPS builds, or other sustain builds outside the meta.

If Sigil of Doom was so crucial to keeping celestial builds in check, wouldn’t we see it being used more by lots of players?

Just taking a look at meta builds:

1. Engineer generally takes it, or intelligence. This is regardless of build besides 100 mines and turret builds.
2. Elementalist takes it.
3. Warrior takes it.
4. Mesmer takes it (generally on staff)
5. Thief doesn’t normally take it, but they always have shortbow’s choking gas, steal and dagger auto attacks.
6. Ranger sometimes takes it, but they also have poison on condi builds.
7. Guardian doesn’t generally take it
8. Necromancer doesn’t usually take it, but they have poison.

So really everyone takes it who doesn’t have a lot of poison in their build.

Dividing them in groups:

3 classes that never take it: necro, guard and thief
3 classes that sometimes use it: engi, mes and ranger
2 classes that always use it: ele and war

37.5% of the classes never use sigil of doom
37.5% sometimes use it (I see most engis with entiligence and hardly see a condi ranger)
25% of the classes always use sigil of doom

From the 25% that always use 2 are celestial users.
From the 37.5% that never uses none are celestial classes.

So how nerfing doom will make celestial more powerfull? Most of the classes that don’t run celestial don’t use doom either because they have other source of poison that would’t be affected by doom nerf or just don’t use poison at all.

Nerfing doom duration will reduce the access to poison for war and ele. Reducing their ability to reduce the enemy healing effects.

The only class that would not be effected much is engi because poison from grenades.

so you are promoting for everlasting healings instead of actually punishing people in pvp match for losing fights? Because that doom sigil was one of the few ways to reduce healing from heavy sustain classes from healing everyone to full health in less than 5 seconds. Nerfing the doom sigil will turn the meta into more sustain fights, which ironically what celestial haters don’t want but somehow advocating for by nerfing such sigils. Also by that logic any chance on critical hit sigils must be removed because they are providing ways for other classes to apply condition that other classes don’t normally get, like sigil of blood, earth, strength, rage, etc.

The only situation where nerfing doom is making people last longer in a fight is if a celestial if fighting another celestial. Right now it is already a very long/endless fight. The other classes as posted above dont use doom because they have other sources of poinson or just don’t feel like using it. So nerfing doom won’t how fast a thief ,guard, etc can burst through celestial’s hp.

Defending doom because celestial classes use it to fight celestial classes is the same logic as defend 25 might stacks because celestial classes use them to fight other celestial classes.

I don’t see why you gave those sigils as example of applying conditions

“Also by that logic any chance on critical hit sigils must be removed because they are providing ways for other classes to apply condition that other classes don’t normally get, like sigil of blood, earth, strength, rage, etc.”

Sigil of blood steals hp it doesnt apply conditions.
Sigil of stengh gives a boon not a condition.
Sigil of rage gives quicknots not a condition.

Sigil of earth applies conditions, but bleeding is one of the most common ones. The only class that has no bleeding source from weapons is guardian.
It is just a small dps increase and if you are not speced for condis it won’t help very much. Not like doom, because no one cares about the condi dmg from poison. People want just to reduce the enemy healing.

IMO doom should be more like sigil of ice. Applys a new condi that most builds don’t have access but has a small duration.

If too high survivability becomes a problem, a good way to reduce survivability would be a nerf to the boon vigor from 100% regen to 50 or 75%.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Exedore.6320:

Chaith.8256:

Doom is most effective against Eles/Wars/Engineers who have stacked multiple sources of sustain (traits, regen, highly effective healing abilities).

Shaving Doom […] would probably only solidify the status quo more.

But the most prominent users of Sigil of Doom are those same high sustain builds; not the alternate builds, most of which are DPS builds, or other sustain builds outside the meta.

If Sigil of Doom was so crucial to keeping celestial builds in check, wouldn’t we see it being used more by lots of players?

Just taking a look at meta builds:

1. Engineer generally takes it, or intelligence. This is regardless of build besides 100 mines and turret builds.
2. Elementalist takes it.
3. Warrior takes it.
4. Mesmer takes it (generally on staff)
5. Thief doesn’t normally take it, but they always have shortbow’s choking gas, steal and dagger auto attacks.
6. Ranger sometimes takes it, but they also have poison on condi builds.
7. Guardian doesn’t generally take it
8. Necromancer doesn’t usually take it, but they have poison.

So really everyone takes it who doesn’t have a lot of poison in their build.

Dividing them in groups:

3 classes that never take it: necro, guard and thief
3 classes that sometimes use it: engi, mes and ranger
2 classes that always use it: ele and war

37.5% of the classes never use sigil of doom
37.5% sometimes use it (I see most engis with entiligence and hardly see a condi ranger)
25% of the classes always use sigil of doom

From the 25% that always use 2 are celestial users.
From the 37.5% that never uses none are celestial classes.

So how nerfing doom will make celestial more powerfull? Most of the classes that don’t run celestial don’t use doom either because they have other source of poison that would’t be affected by doom nerf or just don’t use poison at all.

Nerfing doom duration will reduce the access to poison for war and ele. Reducing their ability to reduce the enemy healing effects.

The only celestial class that would not be effected much is engi because poison from grenades.

Conclusion: the ones who don’t have poison in their builds are mostly the celestial users. And a nerf to doom will nerf them more than anything else.

Supreme.3164:

@xDudisx

Celestial was made for jack of all trades professions, it was not made for profession capable of mastering certain aspects. At this point I’d rather remove the jack of all trades concept from GW2 and allow each profession to be master of something

A long time ago they posted the goal that they try to reach for each class when balancing. They said engi and eles are intended to be jack of all trades.

IMO the only problem right now is that celestial d/d ele does too much dmg and rifle engi has too much cc+condi+block.

I think that their sustain is ok. The problem is not celestial amulet. The last update where they nerfed might stacks, sigil of battle, drake’s breath and greneade kit was good.

What needs a nerf:
sigil of doom,
sigil of inteligence,
runes of hoelbrak (-20% condi might duration source of might+ power based)
runes of nightmare
air+fire combo
d/d skills
tool kit
grenade kit

Novuake.2691:

Remove sigil of doom and celestial becomes a MAJOR problem.

You should not be having issues with Cele users anymore. L2P.

If doom is so strong to counter celestial then why the only ones we see using it are the celestial users?

Do you see a lot of guardians, thieves, mesmers, rangers or necros using sigil of doom to counter d/d ele and rifle engi? I don’t. All I see is d/d ele, engis and warriors using doom.

Nerf doom will nerf the condi pressure the cele classes can do. Specially for ele and war that have no other source of poison.

My suggestion would be make the poison aoe but reduce its duration from 6s to 2s.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

. Do you want celestial builds for all classes so that the role that elementalist/engineer/warrior fill right now could be filled by any class?

Yes I would like to see the other 5 classes been able to play as celestial. Make some changes so mesmer, thief, necro,ranger and guard can make more use of healing power and hybrid dmg at the same time.

Much more enjoyable to play as and against a hybrid celestial than against zerker specs. The spike dmg that some builds get sacrificing almost 0 survivability is insane (hello sigil of air+fire combo).

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, I didn’t wanna get on Cele but come on, if half the meta uses it there’s obviously something wrong.

And the other half classes are zerker. By the same logic let’s first nerf zerkers.

Zerker medi guard
Zerker thief
Zerker mesmer

we also see some zerker bowrangers

He’s mainly talking about high tier Tournament Teams. Not half of the baddies on this game. There’s a reason why these teams have at least three players running Celestials.

Celestial amulet is more than fine. Only 3 classes run that normally engi/war/ele. And you see some warriors with soldiers too. Zerker is more of a problem than celestial after might nerf.

How many teams have Engi/War/Ele in their comp in tournaments? Thanks for valdidating my point

Back on topic
The argument here isn’t Dooms damage but the -33% heal debuff. Whether the duration should be reduced or the healing debuff should be less.

Tank amulet users want a nerf. Dps amulet users are saying no. Condi users are saying, “Don’t nurf Mai dmg kthx!”.

You have problems reading and comprehending. You qq about celestial and say the presence of engi/ele/war as a prof against celestial. Flawed logic

Celestial not working in 5 out of 8 classes is enough evidence to conclude that celestial is not the problem. The problem is on engi/war and dd ele not on the amulet itself.

Luckly anet seems to know this and is nerfing things like might, grenade kit, dreake’s breath and not the celestial amulet itself.

Like Aomine.5012 said, zerkers are present in tournaments.

So quick to assume. 1) I never said Celestial was a problem, nor have I ever said the amulet needed a nerf. 2) You completely overlooked my entire point.

A nerf to Doom and Celestials WILL be a problem. As well as other bunker type classes, they will be more of a hassle to deal with.
Same for Energy. Some builds will simply suck without these Sigils working for them.

Supreme.3164:

Over 70% of the Pvp forum is made up of nerf threads, if the Devs would listen to even half of them….we would be fighting with water guns by now

You said: “He’s mainly talking about high tier Tournament Teams. Not half of the baddies on this game. There’s a reason why these teams have at least three players running Celestials.”

That is implying that celestial is broken.

PopeUrban.2578:

I think all “on crit” sigils should be brought down to
“on hit” and balanced around the more reliable application.

It severely hampers sigil choice for builds that don’t stack crit like mad, which are generally the builds in need of more utility due to less damage output.

This is one of the best suggestions I’ve seen in this forums. Making them have a chance to proc on all atks and not just crits reduces the rng involved a bit. Also makes more viable builds that dont have precision.

You should post this idea as a new thread.

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, I didn’t wanna get on Cele but come on, if half the meta uses it there’s obviously something wrong.

And the other half classes are zerker. By the same logic let’s first nerf zerkers.

Zerker medi guard
Zerker thief
Zerker mesmer

we also see some zerker bowrangers

He’s mainly talking about high tier Tournament Teams. Not half of the baddies on this game. There’s a reason why these teams have at least three players running Celestials.

Celestial amulet is more than fine. Only 3 classes run that normally engi/war/ele. And you see some warriors with soldiers too. Zerker is more of a problem than celestial after might nerf.

How many teams have Engi/War/Ele in their comp in tournaments? Thanks for valdidating my point

Back on topic
The argument here isn’t Dooms damage but the -33% heal debuff. Whether the duration should be reduced or the healing debuff should be less.

Tank amulet users want a nerf. Dps amulet users are saying no. Condi users are saying, “Don’t nurf Mai dmg kthx!”.

You have problems reading and comprehending. You qq about celestial and say the presence of engi/ele/war as a prof against celestial. Flawed logic

Celestial not working in 5 out of 8 classes is enough evidence to conclude that celestial is not the problem. The problem is on engi/war and dd ele not on the amulet itself.

Luckly anet seems to know this and is nerfing things like might, grenade kit, dreake’s breath and not the celestial amulet itself.

Like Aomine.5012 said, zerkers are present in tournaments.

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, I didn’t wanna get on Cele but come on, if half the meta uses it there’s obviously something wrong.

And the other half classes are zerker. By the same logic let’s first nerf zerkers.

Zerker medi guard
Zerker thief
Zerker mesmer

we also see some zerker bowrangers

He’s mainly talking about high tier Tournament Teams. Not half of the baddies on this game. There’s a reason why these teams have at least three players running Celestials.

Your post makes 0 sense. Zerker thieves have been quite abundand in tournaments since ever. Even in finals sometimes you see zerker mesmer. Zerker medi guard and even a bow ranger were present in anets recent tourneys.

Celestial amulet is more than fine. Only 3 classes run that normally engi/war/ele. And you see some warriors with soldiers too. Zerker is more of a problem than celestial after might nerf.

Celestial amulet is fine. It is not even viable for most classes. When was the last time you have seen a celestial mesmer, necro, thief or guard?

They just need to reduce a bit the dmg output from d/d and engi. But without a nerf to air+fire combo first it would be a bad decision to nerf celestial hybrid classes.

I would like to have Power-prec-thoughness with power main stat. For wvw would be able to just mix the new stat+zerker and keep max power and be able to control the thougness lvl without getting useless vitality.

Right now the only power main stat set that has thoughness also has vitality (soldier). You can mix other sets but you lose power doing that.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, I didn’t wanna get on Cele but come on, if half the meta uses it there’s obviously something wrong.

And the other half classes are zerker. By the same logic let’s first nerf zerkers.

Zerker medi guard
Zerker thief
Zerker mesmer

we also see some zerker bowrangers

ArrDee.2573:

The only reason why people use Doom is because of high sustain meta builds! Nerfing Doom is a buff to these classes and a buff to sustain-y builds! Nobody wants that!

None of the S tier classes use Energy sigil! Nerfing Energy Sigil is a buff to the Celestial Amulet builds that you dislike so much!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

How can you tell that nobody likes it? You can’t.

Nerf to doom and energy would be a great change.

Amir.1570:

Neptune.2570:

Thief is the single, undisputed, hardest class to make effective at high tier pvp. Fact.

Fixed.

If by hard you mean baiting dodges with Phantasms and then instant-cast shattering people after they don’t have anymore endurance while spamming evades and invuln as you do so is hard then it just shows how much you know.

Ranger is easier than Mesmer, but Mesmer is still pretty easy. There are harder specs in this game, specs that take real skill. Even Thief is more skill-based than Mesmer really but I guess it’s just hard to understand that just because you play a Mesmer.

The problem is the loud minorty that plays mesmer on the forum and keep repeating “mesmer is hard” in every post. The strategy of repeating lies until everyone believes in it.

Mesmer does not need more vigor access. They get 50% vigor uptime just from 1 minor trait in a traitline that all mesmers run. It is not that necro has too little dodges, the problem is that almost all meta builds have way too much vigor uptime and in most cases it comes from passive adept or minor traits.

I like the way anet is nerfing boons. First might reducing the max dmg output and now incomig stab nerf. Would like to see some nerf to the boon vigor. Maybe go from 100% extra regen to 50-75%

Sorel.4870:

Lordrosicky.5813:

xDudisx.5914:

It will be for all the classes that use the stability buff.

It is a great change. Making pve a bit harder. WvW hammer train will not be imune to ccs anymore. And for spvp stability will have more counters now.

loll no dude. Already one of the most annoyingly OP specs with zero counter play is d/p thief (and s/d thief actually). Those 15k out of stealth instant spikes and then getting immobed for ages on the next attack is already out of hand.

Add the fact that headshot is a spammable and ranged instant interrupt…..and you have issues. 100% this change will just buff the existingly powerful kitten in the game.

I believe that education comes from repetition, so please allow me to be vain and quote myself:

Sorel.4870:

xDudisx.5914:

Mesmer F3 will apply daze 3 times. If it removes 3 stab stacks it will be op.

Hardly, considering that in meta shatter builds it strips boons! You already lose your stability when eating a full shatter. Similarly, if the thief runs bountiful theft (so if he chooses not to specialize), he can rip the stability off! So the only problematic professions already have ways to remove stab (same goes for perma fear necro).

The thing is d/p thief already strips stability on steal! And he doesn’t need to waste his entire initiative on five stacks of stab while being exposed for 5s doing so (which is a death sentence for a thief). So I’m not sure I understand your concern. Can you elaborate?

Meta is passive of changes over time. If eventually people stop running those said traits mesmer/thief will still be imune to stab. The stab nerf will give any mesmer with any build the ability to ignore stability with F3. Same for thief.