Guild Wars 2

Yeah this could give base nec a lot more options. It still needs a bit of a damage boost though. How about deathly chill causing chill to do direct damage initially of say 100 (based on power) and 1 stack of bleed for 7 seconds. This way it works for both power and condi necs. I hate how polarizing some of the traits are. Makes it like we have very few build choices.

Zenith.7301:

Akrasia.5469:

Krysard.1364:

Akrasia.5469:

Krysard.1364:

Akrasia.5469:

I was initially horrified by the change to Deathly Chill and all the chill nerfs in general. But after some playtesting I’m seeing that this isn’t as bad as I thought it would be. Chillomancer isn’t the beast it once was BUT there are several benefits to the new system.

1st if you trait correctly then you hit with 4 conditions each time you apply fear (Fear, Chill, Vuln, Bleed) This is panics most low to mid level players and still mentally messes with experienced players who may pop their condi cleanse too soon. Chill alone applies 3 conditions in this set up. If you pair it up with scepter you can apply poison, cripple, and torment. (I know both on the giving AND receiving end, It’s not fun to instantly see 6-7 conditions hit you at once ack)

2nd You can combo with other Necros and even Eles to apply more bleeds so while individually this may be a nerf, its stronger for team play. Which is the main thing as a class we get complaints about (our strong but selfish abilities).

3rd It’s not as big a nerf as I thought. It’s definitely a bigger nerf if you are not a true chillomancer and wanted a little extra burst damage but for chillomancers and hybrids with lots of chill sources you can easily maintain 3-5 extra stacks of bleed(on top of other sources like scepter) in a sustained fight and possibly burst with your damage chain and apply 5-7 stacks.

4th Cleansing Chill doesn’t remove the damage so people need to remove 2 conditions to stop the pain. I think chill get removed 1st (can someone verify) so in the end you maintain damage longer.

So my opinion on this is it’s not the end for condi reaper. We may just have to tweak it to see what we can really do.

Before you could do dmg with marks, now you dont. No need to reply anthing else.

I’m not really getting your point here. What damage are you talking about? Marks Chilliblans and Reapers mark both spam out 4 conditions per hit. Shout Suffer when someone/something is hit by those 2 marks and you have 3 bleed stacks on them. Yeah we’re nerfed. We all know that but since it’s a mechanics change and not just a pure damage reduction there are ways to take advantage of the new system but you have to be willing to adapt. A 2 man Chillomancer team could spam 6 bleed stacks with the same skills mentioned. and thats only 3 of the 7 sources of chill my current build has.

My point is, before you could use chillblains and hit for 2k+. Now you cant, you just tick one bleed. Chillblains+Reapers+suffer was 10s+ chill, so ~8k. How can you compare 3 extra bleeds to this? Chill nerf was a huge nerf. Two necros using three quite relevant skills just to be able to stack 6 bleeds is ridiculous.

That’s paper logic and not how things work in the middle of a game. I don’t think anyone except for true noobs took the whole 8k damage you’re talking about. I’ve survived other Chillomancers with positioning, cleansing etc. There are a lot of articles and videos explaining why just running the numbers on paper do not equal what goes on in the game.

Yes we were nerfed and yes Chillomancer isn’t the monster it was but it wasn’t a straight damage reduction it was a mechanics change meaning there’s room for adaption.

Also 6 bleeds is more dmg per tick than chill damage. 6 was a very conservative #. My point was that there’s opportunity for team synergy and even higher potential damage with creative builds. We HAVE lost some base damage but not as much as it looked initially and we may have picked up some benefits in the long run. I would like to see the damage buffed a bit like perhaps a 10% condition damage increase vs all chilled opponents added to DC. But the mechanic itself looks like it will work pretty well.

If you’re gonna argue cleansing and positioning for chill damage the same case applies to your bleeds.

It’s a straight up damage loss. It was intended to be a damage loss by the devs’ own words.

Of course it’s a damage loss. No one is arguing that. Individually we can’t destroy foes like we could before but there are mechanics in place that could be better for team synergy. I was mainly arguing that the numbers on paper don’t reflect what actually happens in a fight. Sometimes you can’t calculate the benefit or detriment of a skill change until it’s play tested and people figure out the combos timing etc. Some combos seem great on paper but are not practical and some skills overlooked become great when used correctly. As it is we could possibly do more damage with the mechanic. Not individually but in team fights. I already mentioned I think 1 bleed is a bit weak but the mechanic change itself has a lot of potential for better more useful chillomancers. We shall see.

Anchoku.8142:

Sorry if my rambling looked like a rant. I was responding to a comment about PvE.

My comments assumed players knew to lead with staff and switch back to it when necessary. The weapon swap CD nerfs condition damage dps. It needs a new Sigil that reduces swap CD.

Shroud is very useful but scepter does not generate much LF by itself so I try save shroud for more defensive action.

As Flumek alluded, focus has challenges in PvP because of cast times (5) and projectile speeds (4) but is better in PvE.

I am surprised focus is run on a scepter build, though, because it supports power builds so much better. The only off-hand I consider good for a condition damage build is dagger. I feel like horn is somewhat hybrid with its stun and AoE cripple but it is used on power builds a lot because MH dagger has such short range.

I’ve found focus works well for my build. Focus 4 weak? It spams Vuln and regen to teammates. Focus 5 is a good utility skill. Yes I usually lead with staff 5 or 3 (if on cooldown) when attacking groups and sometimes individuals. I often use scepter in a support role when a teammate is fighting 1 or 2 on a point. The chill from range changes the fight instantly and boon removal to boot. It wasn’t very good with scepter until deathly chill came around but my build is hybrid chillomancer so power&condi (Mercenary). 2 skills on focus cause vuln and I gain crit% by hitting with them.

I’m a support build that combines elements of Celestial Sig with Chillomancer. I draw and redirect conditions and spam conditions by chilling foes. It works really well in team fights. I’m learning that I don’t solo as well since the nerf but I’m way better at support than I used to be. 2v2 2v3 2v4 and we’re doing well I’ve even been in a few 2v5 and we mopped up. All pug fights so it’s not just a certain teammate build that it supports.

Maybe Necros in general should learn more support roles. We have some decent options in that area now and while we’re not the monsters we once were can find some decent niches if we try.

I’m tweaking my cross between Chillomancer and the old Celestial Signet necro. Mercenary amulet, Reaper, Spite Curses. Scepter/focus & Staff. Traited I don’t need anything more than spamming my condis to get a high crit % which I use to redirect condis from teammates to opponents (Plague Signet and Plague Sending) while doing good direct damage when I pop into shroud occasionally. I have Signet of the Locust too for the 25% speed boost and an extra heal. I have my signets traited to remove boons and give me might as well. Suffer and “Chilled to the Bone” round out my skills

I have Grenth runes right now for lots of extra chills and condi dmg but was playing with Lyssa as another condi cleanse. Using “Your Soul is Mine” as my heal I have an extra group chill every 18 seconds or less depending on how many I hit with it.

YSIM is a very underrated heal. It has almost half the recharge time as our other heals and heals for a good amount and does damage and provides LF, but really shines with runes that give it an added effect like Grenth chills. In a full battle it can proc almost every 15 seconds (traited with Augury of Death). Each time I heal I spam Chill, Vuln, and Bleed, do damage, siphon, gain LF.. not bad. It really helps as an escape as I heal and run from chilled foes.

Please show the Bleeding (or Torment if you do listen to the masses) damage on all Chill skills in the blue print as normal. We know it’s there but it should show up when traited like any other bonuses from traits.

Krysard.1364:

Akrasia.5469:

Krysard.1364:

Akrasia.5469:

I was initially horrified by the change to Deathly Chill and all the chill nerfs in general. But after some playtesting I’m seeing that this isn’t as bad as I thought it would be. Chillomancer isn’t the beast it once was BUT there are several benefits to the new system.

1st if you trait correctly then you hit with 4 conditions each time you apply fear (Fear, Chill, Vuln, Bleed) This is panics most low to mid level players and still mentally messes with experienced players who may pop their condi cleanse too soon. Chill alone applies 3 conditions in this set up. If you pair it up with scepter you can apply poison, cripple, and torment. (I know both on the giving AND receiving end, It’s not fun to instantly see 6-7 conditions hit you at once ack)

2nd You can combo with other Necros and even Eles to apply more bleeds so while individually this may be a nerf, its stronger for team play. Which is the main thing as a class we get complaints about (our strong but selfish abilities).

3rd It’s not as big a nerf as I thought. It’s definitely a bigger nerf if you are not a true chillomancer and wanted a little extra burst damage but for chillomancers and hybrids with lots of chill sources you can easily maintain 3-5 extra stacks of bleed(on top of other sources like scepter) in a sustained fight and possibly burst with your damage chain and apply 5-7 stacks.

4th Cleansing Chill doesn’t remove the damage so people need to remove 2 conditions to stop the pain. I think chill get removed 1st (can someone verify) so in the end you maintain damage longer.

So my opinion on this is it’s not the end for condi reaper. We may just have to tweak it to see what we can really do.

Before you could do dmg with marks, now you dont. No need to reply anthing else.

I’m not really getting your point here. What damage are you talking about? Marks Chilliblans and Reapers mark both spam out 4 conditions per hit. Shout Suffer when someone/something is hit by those 2 marks and you have 3 bleed stacks on them. Yeah we’re nerfed. We all know that but since it’s a mechanics change and not just a pure damage reduction there are ways to take advantage of the new system but you have to be willing to adapt. A 2 man Chillomancer team could spam 6 bleed stacks with the same skills mentioned. and thats only 3 of the 7 sources of chill my current build has.

My point is, before you could use chillblains and hit for 2k+. Now you cant, you just tick one bleed. Chillblains+Reapers+suffer was 10s+ chill, so ~8k. How can you compare 3 extra bleeds to this? Chill nerf was a huge nerf. Two necros using three quite relevant skills just to be able to stack 6 bleeds is ridiculous.

That’s paper logic and not how things work in the middle of a game. I don’t think anyone except for true noobs took the whole 8k damage you’re talking about. I’ve survived other Chillomancers with positioning, cleansing etc. There are a lot of articles and videos explaining why just running the numbers on paper do not equal what goes on in the game.

Yes we were nerfed and yes Chillomancer isn’t the monster it was but it wasn’t a straight damage reduction it was a mechanics change meaning there’s room for adaption.

Also 6 bleeds is more dmg per tick than chill damage. 6 was a very conservative #. My point was that there’s opportunity for team synergy and even higher potential damage with creative builds. We HAVE lost some base damage but not as much as it looked initially and we may have picked up some benefits in the long run. I would like to see the damage buffed a bit like perhaps a 10% condition damage increase vs all chilled opponents added to DC. But the mechanic itself looks like it will work pretty well.

Anchoku.8142:

Reh.5986:

Anchoku.8142:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

gavyne.6847:

I must be living on a different planet than those that see the chill nerfs as “buffs”.

Chill applying bleed is indeed a buff in PvE, less so in WvW and PvP I’d argue

Bleed on chill is only a buff in PvE team fights against major bosses when running a condition damage build.

Do pve people actually bother to switch to staff/shroud or do they just camp scepter? Thought most of their bleed came through minions and scepter? I honestly don’t know but curious as I thought about gearing my necro for raids instead of WVW.

Staff and shroud are both for defense and tagging in a PvE condition damage build.

One of the problems with Necro/Reaper is that condition damage is overwhelmingly dependent upon scepter’s auto-attack. If you build and trait for condition damage, you want to avoid using shroud, staff, and any skills that reduce bleed application rate. After all, there was a lot of sacrifice in terms of equipment stats to gain high condition damage. Scepter builds just always seem squishier because so much defensive and offensive utility was lost setting up for condition damage.

The patch attempted to fix that by making bleeding possible on a wider range of weapons and utilities. Skills with chill and short cast times that do not interfere with scepter AA are fine, though dps seems nerfed compared to dps with chill damage.

Using focus 5, now, is close to a wash because it interrupts scepter AA. Staff is a straight dps loss even with Chillblains proc’ing a bleed. Suffer and Chilled to the Bone give a single long bleed but then go on cool-down.

Dhuumfire and Terror do more damage than the bleeds from chill. This drives the build toward Curses for scepter and Terror, Soul Reaping for Dhuumfire and to help shroud. If you want to go Reaper, then you cannot take Blood Magic or Death Magic, both of which are useful in condition damage builds so you should consider whether the better Reaper is worth taking for its Shroud, greatsword, and shouts rather than for the bleeds.

Give up Soul Reaping for another trait line, like Death Magic for exploding minions, and you will find yourself perpetually low on life force unless you run all shouts as a Reaper. Dhuumfire goes away, too.

Give up Reaper and be stuck with basic Necromancer, Death Shroud, and no extra bleeds.

The trades to get a single bleed on chill, and develop a chill build, require a lot of sacrifices I weigh carefully.

This whole rant is for someone analyzing the build on paper and not understanding dynamic combat. In any gamemode you will have to do more than AA. You have to move, dodge, defend, set up and coordinate with teammates. Certain skills have certain situations when to use them. For example you say Focus 5 is a wash for interrupting scepter AA. Well focus has a 1200 range. I usually open with focus when attacking a single opponent at range. Landing 3 conditions, stipping boons and doing damage before I even engage. Reapers Touch and Spinal Shivers nets a ton of vulnerability and 6.5 seconds of chill 10 seconds of bleed before I’m in scepter AA range. “Suffer” and “Chilled to the Bone!” to renew chills and condis that might have been wiped and I have serious pressure on a target. The flaw in your logic is that your numbers are based on an opponent just standing there letting you AA them to stack bleeds. Having options that adapt the situation is what makes a good build. If I’m dealing with a group Staff 5 can land 4 conditions on their entire group. As they cleanse Suffer, CttB, Chilliblians and my other 3 or 4 sources of chill keeps condition pressure up. The thing is everyone wants to be Superman. They want 1st HIGH DAMAGE 2nd HIGH SUSTAIN usually at the expense of their team. If I’m on a decent team with some good DPS teammates my condi cover wrecks the opponents ability to defend against us. I’m not doing the heavy damage I used to but the scramble players do when hit with 3 and 4 conditions at a time is a major difference in a fight. Do I wish I was the powerhouse I was pre patch? Of course but it’s not a complete loss and there’s room to make it work.

We do need to get a little buffed in the next patch though. Our build options are suffering.

bearshaman.3421:

Akrasia.5469:

I was initially horrified by the change to Deathly Chill and all the chill nerfs in general. But after some playtesting I’m seeing that this isn’t as bad as I thought it would be. Chillomancer isn’t the beast it once was BUT there are several benefits to the new system.

1st if you trait correctly then you hit with 4 conditions each time you apply fear (Fear, Chill, Vuln, Bleed) This is panics most low to mid level players and still mentally messes with experienced players who may pop their condi cleanse too soon. Chill alone applies 3 conditions in this set up. If you pair it up with scepter you can apply poison, cripple, and torment. (I know both on the giving AND receiving end, It’s not fun to instantly see 6-7 conditions hit you at once ack)

2nd You can combo with other Necros and even Eles to apply more bleeds so while individually this may be a nerf, its stronger for team play. Which is the main thing as a class we get complaints about (our strong but selfish abilities).

3rd It’s not as big a nerf as I thought. It’s definitely a bigger nerf if you are not a true chillomancer and wanted a little extra burst damage but for chillomancers and hybrids with lots of chill sources you can easily maintain 3-5 extra stacks of bleed(on top of other sources like scepter) in a sustained fight and possibly burst with your damage chain and apply 5-7 stacks.

4th Cleansing Chill doesn’t remove the damage so people need to remove 2 conditions to stop the pain. I think chill get removed 1st (can someone verify) so in the end you maintain damage longer.

So my opinion on this is it’s not the end for condi reaper. We may just have to tweak it to see what we can really do.

Another understands.

Yeah based on several unranked matches it seems a lot of people are catching on. Chillomancers are becoming what Engineers were (are?) as in stacking a ton of different conditions easily and consistently with a few skills.

I do wish they would have made DC apply Torment stacks instead of bleed. Bleed is so boring and we have enough bleed with scepter. We don’t have enough bleed traits to sync it with to make bleed more fun and useful and torment, while not being much different in amount of damage, is much more thematic and it would be nice to have a 2nd consistant damage condition. If they fix some of our traits (BLOOD MAGIC) to compliment bleeds then all will be good but for now bleed is too blah.

All in all I like some of the new changes and I think Chillomancer will still have a place in PvP as well as PvE if teams learn how to play together. God forbid a necro working with others

Krysard.1364:

Akrasia.5469:

I was initially horrified by the change to Deathly Chill and all the chill nerfs in general. But after some playtesting I’m seeing that this isn’t as bad as I thought it would be. Chillomancer isn’t the beast it once was BUT there are several benefits to the new system.

1st if you trait correctly then you hit with 4 conditions each time you apply fear (Fear, Chill, Vuln, Bleed) This is panics most low to mid level players and still mentally messes with experienced players who may pop their condi cleanse too soon. Chill alone applies 3 conditions in this set up. If you pair it up with scepter you can apply poison, cripple, and torment. (I know both on the giving AND receiving end, It’s not fun to instantly see 6-7 conditions hit you at once ack)

2nd You can combo with other Necros and even Eles to apply more bleeds so while individually this may be a nerf, its stronger for team play. Which is the main thing as a class we get complaints about (our strong but selfish abilities).

3rd It’s not as big a nerf as I thought. It’s definitely a bigger nerf if you are not a true chillomancer and wanted a little extra burst damage but for chillomancers and hybrids with lots of chill sources you can easily maintain 3-5 extra stacks of bleed(on top of other sources like scepter) in a sustained fight and possibly burst with your damage chain and apply 5-7 stacks.

4th Cleansing Chill doesn’t remove the damage so people need to remove 2 conditions to stop the pain. I think chill get removed 1st (can someone verify) so in the end you maintain damage longer.

So my opinion on this is it’s not the end for condi reaper. We may just have to tweak it to see what we can really do.

Before you could do dmg with marks, now you dont. No need to reply anthing else.

I’m not really getting your point here. What damage are you talking about? Marks Chilliblans and Reapers mark both spam out 4 conditions per hit. Shout Suffer when someone/something is hit by those 2 marks and you have 3 bleed stacks on them. Yeah we’re nerfed. We all know that but since it’s a mechanics change and not just a pure damage reduction there are ways to take advantage of the new system but you have to be willing to adapt. A 2 man Chillomancer team could spam 6 bleed stacks with the same skills mentioned. and thats only 3 of the 7 sources of chill my current build has.

Krysard.1364:

bearshaman.3421:

ronpierce.2760:

bearshaman.3421:

Flumek.9043:

Krysard.1364:

bearshaman.3421:

Shouakue.5729:

I can understand from a PvE stand point, Yes, it will stack bleeds but even with that, it still doesnt compare to how much condition damage other classes push out. In a realistic fight against other real people, this is a huge nerf. 1 sec of chill duration for 671 damage is better than 1 stack of bleed for 120. With the amount of dodges, invul, blocks, and immune, you are luck to get 4-6 stacks of bleed with a necro. Not to mention that resistance is becoming more available so when someone gets 3 sec of resistance, all my condi damage is useless and with people running -20% condi dur, all you need is 3 sec of resistance to cancel the damage. Also, many other classes now gain regen very easily which counters bleed and poison pretty easy. I agree that it was strong even with the previous nerf but instead of getting rid of its damage they could of toned it down to like 500ish @1700 condition and have the trait remove one or both of the other abilities chill gave. So it would force the player to chose damage over speed and skill reduction.

With the amount of boon corruption we have, other classes melt between the conditions we pump out and the boons they try to use that we corrupt. Even with a decent number of cleanses, it’s pretty much impossible to be condi free with a necro going at you. And that hasn’t changed with the change of one trait.

It has. If you cleanse the bleed, you are gucci to go.

Exactly. And melt is a strong word unless you meant us.

And before they could cleanse the chill. I don’t see how that’s an argument.

Chill wasn’t our “other” primary damage set, was instant (did more damage up front, and didn’t need stacked every time to deal significant damage) pressure. Our chills also last less time making it easier to remove bleeds. I have a hard time seeing how anyone thinks this isn’t a massive nerf… It’s very logical and simple. o.O

But before if they cleansed, they removed the chill AND the damage. Now they have to remove 2 conditions instead of one to get rid of all the suck they are dealing with.

Before they needed to cleanse chill+bleed, now just bleed.

Wrong. Before they just need to cleanse chill to remove chill damage. I think chill gets removed 1st (someone please verify) now if they remove chill bleed still does damage. Now fear hits with 4 conditions to help cover the damage. I still would rather see Torment instead of bleed but it’s not as bad as I initially thought. I think I’m going to make more of a hybrid with some power but chillomancer isn’t dead as far as I’m concerned.

I was initially horrified by the change to Deathly Chill and all the chill nerfs in general. But after some playtesting I’m seeing that this isn’t as bad as I thought it would be. Chillomancer isn’t the beast it once was BUT there are several benefits to the new system.

1st if you trait correctly then you hit with 4 conditions each time you apply fear (Fear, Chill, Vuln, Bleed) This is panics most low to mid level players and still mentally messes with experienced players who may pop their condi cleanse too soon. Chill alone applies 3 conditions in this set up. If you pair it up with scepter you can apply poison, cripple, and torment. (I know both on the giving AND receiving end, It’s not fun to instantly see 6-7 conditions hit you at once ack)

2nd You can combo with other Necros and even Eles to apply more bleeds so while individually this may be a nerf, its stronger for team play. Which is the main thing as a class we get complaints about (our strong but selfish abilities).

3rd It’s not as big a nerf as I thought. It’s definitely a bigger nerf if you are not a true chillomancer and wanted a little extra burst damage but for chillomancers and hybrids with lots of chill sources you can easily maintain 3-5 extra stacks of bleed(on top of other sources like scepter) in a sustained fight and possibly burst with your damage chain and apply 5-7 stacks.

4th Cleansing Chill doesn’t remove the damage so people need to remove 2 conditions to stop the pain. I think chill get removed 1st (can someone verify) so in the end you maintain damage longer.

So my opinion on this is it’s not the end for condi reaper. We may just have to tweak it to see what we can really do.

Aesa.4819:

Bhawb.7408:

2 Torment for roughly 8 seconds is the best solution imo. Torment has the best thematic fit, since Reaper is all about anti-movement, plus it allows for a bit of counterplay and thought behind either running and taking Torment or not moving and taking on Reaper in melee.

I agree with this.
Torment is as close to Weaken Knees we can get, and we should have more of it IMO (I would like to see Death Shroud #5 buffed aswell, in this regard).

I also agree Torment would be the best for both function and theme. Hear that THEME LOVING devs. Torment Please instead of bleeds. Either that of make more bleed combos to support the change. Give us more traits like Blood Bond in Blood Magic and make the trait like more appealing so we have some good combos and you’ll hear less complaints from the necro community.

So now Deathly Chill is bleed 10s. It’s like they hear our complaints and gave us more of the same. Imagine a thisty man. You take away his water bottle and you give him a sandwich and when he asks for some water instead you give him some more bread for his sandwich, which he never wanted. Thats what this patch was for necros.

Anyway to get the Devs to notice this trait for consideration for future updates. This and Unholy Martyr need some love.

Ophidia Moonstone.2587:

I don’t think this person has ever played a necro, to think that we don’t worry about timing is an extremely ignorant comment. Timing is EVERYTHING to a necro. Without good timing you aren’t going to get good benefits from the class. Necros are good at many things, but only really great at one – high survivability, but without great timing you only get moderate survivability. I’ve put over 1500 hours in on my necro and I am still learning how to optimize her. If this is a trolling comment to try to build consensus that necro is OP, anet said they like the way necros are performing and if anything they are going to add healing while in reapershroud. Anet isn’t ignorant about the skillset of their classes. They know what each is capable of, and they know that necro isn’t the most powerful class they’ve developed.

The funny thing is that I’ve been reading the revenant forum because I recently leveled one up for possible raiding and they get the same type of criticism. Part of me thinks that the game was so imbalanced in favor of warriors and guardians for so long that there are people that have those characters that do not like more balance in the game. It isn’t that the other professions are op, it is that they aren’t grossly underpowered anymore.

EXACTLY. No one with a true OP class likes when other classes catch up..

Necro is not OP. But being so easy to go against for so long people are not like WTF I can’t stomp the necro like I did before whaaaaaaa they are OP whaaaaaaa. Please nerf them so we can kill them easy like before whaaaaaaaaa!!!!! I’m gonna sign on and say I play necro so people believe me when I say they are OP WHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

I just felt like putting in some humor into this conversation even those it’s mostly true.

gavyne.6847:

Krysard.1364:

The problem with this trait has been and keeps being the fact that doesnt heal through Shroud, so we have a sustain trait that doesnt work on our “sustain stance”.

+1, biggest downside to this trait. Lots of potential heals wasted because once you pop shroud, the trait becomes 100% useless. It works better in a zerg environment like someone mentioned above. In solo or 5v5’s it doesn’t heal you enough out of shroud, and it’s completely useless in shroud.

Its sucks that its doesn’t heal in shroud. That would make it true Grandmaster level. I guess only Vampires get to heal in shroud. :p

Silverkey.2078:

I think I got OP’s point. This is basically the problem of necro. Necro simply eats open world PvE much easier than anything else. The reason is that while necro DPS in organized content is low, its self-reliance (self-might stack, self-vuln stack, high crit rate in shroud) and its “passive” tankiness is much higher than any other class. This means that in solo content, you can just go head-on a facetank everything while dealing the highest damage of all classes (I believe necro damage has one of the highest if not the highest damage of all when playing solo).

So yes, that makes necro the easiest class in open-world PvE, and this just shows how ill-balanced this class is.

2 things. As was said open world PvE is pretty easy in 95% of the game. I’ve been able to solo most open world content with every class.

Secondly Necros have always been strong in open world PvE since GW1. It’s the Necro’s design and theme that makes it that way. Gaining power from things dying around you is a strong mechanic in PvE. Its what we do. Its not because of reaper.

Does Parasitic Contagion work with traited damage from Chill and Fear? Could be beneficial to Chillomancers.

kornfanxxx.9143:

Akrasia.5469:

(don’t even bring up shroud).

WHAT?!?! Hahahaha

Shoud is the argument people used to say Necros were OP since the game launched but seeing the amount of necros on top teams you can tell we were never OP. Shroud is our only defense but still doesn’t provide the sustain as some other classes who have tons of blocks, invulnerability, mobility an stealth. “OMG Necros have a 2nd life bar so they are OP” is the reason we’ve been kittented on since day 1. Now finally the devs realized that most players can’t fully utilize their lofty design. (and by most only 1 player has ever made it to a top ranking team as a necro) This is because shroud doesn’t make us instantly godly. Necro is fun to play and Shoud is cool as hell (no pun intended) but it has flaws like any other game mechanic.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Akrasia.5469:

We are not best at DPS, We are not best at bunkering, we are not best at boon removal,

I have to nitpick, but Necros are very, very much the best boon removal in the game right now. Mallyx Revenants are second with Mesmers third, but Necros are a level above all other professions on that front.

Necros are the best at boon corruption. This is where they excel in fact, but Mesmers have way more access to boon removal and can steal boons. So in terms of effectiveness this one is debatable. But in shear numbers of boons that can be removed Mesemers have the crown

I see a lot of people complaining that the LFG function for higher level fractals is not working and I never see anything above lvl 20 greyed out. Please check this.

Leinhart.2981:

I’m sorry, currently the necro is OP as f***. This is not a shame, but in my opinion it’s annoying. This is not fun at all to play a god (of death actually).

Power reaper, condition reaper, surviviability… We are too strong. You have to admit it, because it’s obvious that we’ll be nerfed one day.

This is a joke right? I’m not saying we’re as bad as a year ago but in no way is Necro OP. We lack a good way to survive focus fire (don’t even bring up shroud). We are at be a a decent jack of all trades but for everything we have there is a class that does it better with the exception of 1 condition chill. We are not best at DPS, We are not best at bunkering, we are not best at boon removal, We are definitely not best at mobility, not best at healing. How are we overpowered? On top of all that Necro is a difficult class to master. Our survival is dependent on precise timing of entering and leaving our shrouds because we have no blocking, no invulnerability, mediocre heals and no escape (unless maybe you build a chillomancer). Again how are we OP.

I have a lot of fun playing Necro and I’m not saying we suck but we’re not OP.

Amaranthe.3578:

yea its been suggested since launch u can forget about it

Well it took 2 years for them to fix Howler so it may not be a lost cause but it’s certainly slow going.

reikken.4961:

Ascended gear is in a pretty good spot as far as acquisition. There is one problem, though: The only real way to get a weapon is to craft it. You don’t have other alternatives. In a game that’s otherwise as open and freeform as this one, that is not good.

I have 1 word for you Tequatl.. Well I guess that’s a name not a word. I have several Ascended weapons from just doing boss battles every day I have a few Teq hoards and some others. Now that you can change stats in the forge there’s no reason not to have an ascended weapon. It takes some patience and luck to get a drop but it’s not like it never happens. Usually 1 or 2 Ascended drops each Teq fight and that’s only the ones who announce it.

Manasa Devi.7958:

I wish I had something to spend my excess Tyrian mastery points on.

The extra is for 2 reasons.

1. So players can play the way they want and get the points they choose instead of having to get them all. I wish there were even more points so I could just focus on the parts of the game I really like but now I have to do things like jumping puzzles which were never a favorite part of the game for me.
2. I’m sure the extra will be used for future content so getting extra now saves hard working players time later. Look at how having all the hero points unlocked helped you to unlock your elites faster. Probably the same thing will happen with mastery points next time some major content comes out.

zapv.8051:

LOL, unholy martyr is hardly a support trait. In actual pvp you generally won’t be pulling enough condis to make a difference.

I never said it was a good trait, just the opposite, but its technically a support trait. That is party of the reasoning for putting it into blood magic but given a buff (I suggested speeding it up to pull more condis earlier in this thread) and put into another trait line you can get a blood support GM and UMart and maybe make a better support build.

Also not every adjustment is for PvP. Necros are weakest in high level PvE now so bringing up PvP only isn’t necessary.

spoj.9672:

Akrasia.5469:

Necros would be in high demand for PvE if Anet only did 1 thing. Make creatures use boons regularly. If a boss for example constantly stacked might, protection etc you’d need a Necro to debuff for the most efficiency. I really don’t know why mobs don’t apply boons more. That 1 change would make several of our skills that are useless in PvE very important. Also Why do bosses have boons that can’t be removed. Necros don’t need more party support skill and traits. We only need to be able to use the skills we already have.

Not really true. Mesmers have always been better for constant boon removal. Condi necros can now compete to a very decent level. But thats only recently. And Mesmer is still more than adequate, and can be even more effective when using phantasmal disenchanters in addition to sword auto. So improving boons on mobs in PvE wont really change things as much as you might think.

I agree on 2 points that Mesmers have better constant boon removal(because of the auto attack and not by much more) and that Necros have only caught up recently. That being said most of Necro boon removal involves converting boons into conditions and most Mesmer boon removal removes add boons to themselves and possibly allies. Considering most classes have decent condition management and that most of the time offense trumps defense in this game, converting boons may be arguably better than ripping them.

Either way if creatures spammed more boons (and conditions for that matter) Necro would be a much more viable PvE class.

Lahmia.2193:

Akrasia.5469:

Lahmia.2193:

I’d prefer something a bit more unique than a Fire shield. While our standing HoT is so much better than before, Necromancers still lack party support. While I’m not asking for massive buffs in that department, a one off skill like this would help our standing.

Yeah but Necro support should be more than just 1 skill. The problem is not skills it’s that most PvE mobs don’t use boons. Necro is a debuff class so now that we’re good in PvP we suck (from a support stance) in high level PvE. If Anet would make more bosses and Champ lvl creatures really use boons we’d be in high demand.

What I’d like to seen in an elite well is something that gels well with some of our best builds. of course as a PvE WvW Wellomancer any decent elite well would be good for me but I’d like to see a well that MMs and Condi necros can use as well(No pun intended

Oh I would love much more but remember we have 2 life bars. So our options will always be limited unless Shroud receives a big nerf.

The phrase “2nd life bar” is one of the reasons necros were so bad for so long. Please don’t say it again.. shhhhh don’t want the devs hearing that

To address your point seriously though. Necros have no other major defense so if they ever did nerf shrouds lifeforce pool we’d be the most squishy class in the game instantly. Now that many of our major issues have been improved (not fixed but improved) we have 1 main issue left which is synergy with other players. The main thing we have going for us that really sets us apart from other classes is boon and condition manipulation. It turns out that now we have decent use to a party in PvP and WvW but we don’t have as much to contribute in PvE because most mobs don’t use boons. Our last major buff we got a TON of boon removal and hardly any creatures to remove boons from. I really hope they make a few raids and some fractals that have creatures spamming boons. That’s the only way necro will be in high demand for PvE. It’s not to say we can’t hold our own but usually there’s a better option. This is probably why we have threads like this one asking for new Elites. We really want something to contribute. Most of our wells have some decent support feature so an elite well should hopefully help up work with others.

RashanDale.3609:

Ashenvall.1564:

“Criticism is easy

It is, because you guys are making it so easy for me.

And what am i supposed to make suggestions for? The way the current elite spec shroud replaces the default one and requires you to make a decision is good in my opinion. I want it to stay like that, and maybe be changed for the other classes’ elite specs.

In a game like this with thousands of players designing their characters build diversity is a good thing or else this might as well be Call of Duty. It would be boring in an RPG if we all had the same skills. The problem with more build diversity is that it makes it harder for Devs to balance everything. So the more lazy approach is to limit what the players can do. The one of the nicest parts of a game like this is to tinker with your character and find a combo that works for you. It gets harder when our options get taken away. Some of the limitations are obvious like forcing you to get a whole new skill line. The other is to make you choose certain skills and traits because they never work well with things you like. Like Blood being bad for Reapers in general or if I play MM I have to take Death magic or minions suck. I’m not saying you’re wrong that there should be sacrifices but players should develop builds with tools given to us by devs not devs making our minds up for us.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

I think wells are awesome as they are.

But, I mostly do solo pve, and I run a build that seems to be very different from what I read that most others run/prefer.

I run axe/dagger power build with wells of blood, darkness, and suffering. I use bone minions and flesh golem. Most importantly I use traits Vampiric and Vampiric Presence. (go ahead and mock me for this build, flame shield is raised)

With those two traits my wells melt through large groups of mobs… and allow me to go face-to-face with champs. Those are when I use ‘em, and I don’t need ’em any other time…. I rarely take any major hit to my health.

In pve the wells combined with those two traits make me pretty much immortal… and I don’t have to invest a lick of stats into healing power to do it.

As far as the claim of vampiric signet being better than well of blood, they serve two different functions. The passive heal of the signet only works when you’re hit… my minions take a lot of my aggro, so it’s infrequently useful from that aspect. Also, the active effect of the signet affects a single target, where as my well heals and siphons in an area… making it amazing when there are a lot of mobs and/or I want to give a bit of extra health to my minions that currently have mob attention. In my case, the well is definitely preferable to the signet.

All that said, I think an elite well would be really cool… but I don’t know if I could give up the golem. What I’d want to see in an elite well is something that spawns minions the equivalent of those karka hatchlings… with each pulse they pop out of the well, head towards the enemy, and explode in minion-explody-awesomeness.

~EW

I used to run something similar in solo PvE but I got rid of minions a while back when the AI was horrible. Being Sylvari luckily I have take root which adding invuln and plants to shoot helps a lot. Or I sometimes for fun run Lich form (which also has minions). I use blood and vampiric traits and run old school necro not reaper in my solo build. Well of Blood, Suffering, corruption and power, Death and Soul Reaping round me out. I almost never die unless I’m really being stupid. I solo medium level Champs with no problem.

One suggestion is if you’re running a power build as it seems then take Axe/focus as your off hand. You can fill your lifeforce in no time and spam vulnerability at the same time making your minions do more damage. On top of that there are 2 slow down skills which really help you get away from mobs in a jam. Besides running MM there’s no reason to be on the front lines as much as you do with your dagger. I use Dagger/Warhorn for mobility and get in and out plus an extra heal but staying mid is preferred if you’re in a tough fight.

Did you read my suggestion for Well of Bone above?

A small amount of damage should be added to Well of Darkness and Well of Power. Well of darkness should also cripple or chill. Well of Suffering is almost perfect maybe a slight cooldown reduction but not even need. Well of Corruption is ok but should do more damage (25-50% more) to those without boons. Well of Blood should be slightly lowered intial heal and much greater pulse heal and siphon by default

An elite well would be awesome. It should be bigger, 320 radius. It should chill every pulse, be unblockable and do both damage and condition damage. I think Well of Dhuum that burns and blasts and chills with every pulse for 8 pulses.

My solution to this issue would be to give us a choice of which skills from each shroud you bring when you go Reaper. Make the whole bar like a utility that way you can still some choice on your build. I’d love to keep most of the Reaper Shroud skills and just add DS4 instead of RS4. Make it so you can only have a choice of the corresponding skill.

The problem that I’m having with all these improvements and “options” is that for every new set of traits and we (and I mean all classes) get the more we’re pigeon holed into a few core builds. We used to have points and 5 trait lines. Now we gained another Grand Master trait but only have 3 lines. Build diversity lowered. We (now I’m talking about necros) get a new shroud but only in with the Reaper trait line thus limiting our choice of trait lines to 2. So AGAIN we lose build diversity. Some traits and skills are so broken no one uses them and other’s are pretty much forced synergy. I mean if I play Wellomancer without Vampiric Rituals to speed up my cooldown time siphon health and add protection then I’m probably stupid. But then that brings down my real choice of GM traits to 2.

2 things I’d like to see in shrouds in the future is 1) the above mentioned shoud skill swap and 2) shroud skills 7-9. I had a thread where I suggested that they should have traits to unlock new shroud skills. So in order to get a new skill you have to pick a certain trait. For example take a crappy GM trait like Unholy Martyr and you unlock a skill shroud skill 7 that lets you damage a target and apply a stack of bleeding for every condition on you.

Lahmia.2193:

I’d prefer something a bit more unique than a Fire shield. While our standing HoT is so much better than before, Necromancers still lack party support. While I’m not asking for massive buffs in that department, a one off skill like this would help our standing.

Yeah but Necro support should be more than just 1 skill. The problem is not skills it’s that most PvE mobs don’t use boons. Necro is a debuff class so now that we’re good in PvP we suck (from a support stance) in high level PvE. If Anet would make more bosses and Champ lvl creatures really use boons we’d be in high demand.

What I’d like to seen in an elite well is something that gels well with some of our best builds. of course as a PvE WvW Wellomancer any decent elite well would be good for me but I’d like to see a well that MMs and Condi necros can use as well(No pun intended

How about a well that steals a bit from mesmers but thematically is all Necro
Well of Decay:
Recharge: 90
Transforms enemies into Undead (2 sec)
Interrupt
Undead replaces skill bar and reduces movement speed by 50%
Undead have health decay 3% per sec
Weakness (3 sec)
All allies siphon health from Undead with each hit.
Pulses 5
Range 900
Radious 240

Lahmia.2193:

Well of Helfire: Target area pulses damage and burning to foes. Allies in the area gain Helfire.
-Damage: (6x) 738 (same as Well of Corruption)
-Burning (3 seconds)
-Unblockable
-Fire Field
-Number of Pulses: 6
-Cast Time: 1/4s
-Number of Targets: 5
-Radius: 240
-Cooldown: 60s
-Range: 900
Helfire: Allies inflict burning on hit (1s icd) and do +10% damage vs burning foes.
The effect itself would grant a green fire effect to weapons of those it effects.

This would grant Necros a nice party buff which could be useful to both condition and pure damage builds.

I was about to post a very similar well but just call it Well Of Dhuumfire but add chill as well so that it’s hard to leave. Also with a bigger radius
Well of Dhuumfire:
Recharge time: 60s
-Damage: (6x) 738 (same as Well of Corruption)
-Burning (3 seconds)
-Chill(3seconds)
-Unblockable_
-Fire Field
-Number of Pulses: 6
-Cast Time: 1/4s
-Number of Targets: 5
-Radius: 320
-Cooldown: 60s
-Range: 900
Nearby Allies gain Fire Shield (6 seconds)

I just want to be able to see trait/shroud skill interactions when making a build. Is that so much to ask?

Anchoku.8142:

Unholy Martyr and Unholy Sanctuary are o the ‘wrong’ specializations on purpose to ensure there is an opportunity cost to taking them.

Calls to swap them started right after the big trait rework that introduced them.

That’s clearly understood by most I think but it’s a very lazy way to accomplish the same thing at the cost of build diversity. Unholy Martyr at the moment is unusable and by putting all the support traits in the same line it’s hard to be a support specialist. Necros already have a reputation for being a lousy support class and there’s not much we can do about it when builds are handicapping us.

Necros would be in high demand for PvE if Anet only did 1 thing. Make creatures use boons regularly. If a boss for example constantly stacked might, protection etc you’d need a Necro to debuff for the most efficiency. I really don’t know why mobs don’t apply boons more. That 1 change would make several of our skills that are useless in PvE very important. Also Why do bosses have boons that can’t be removed. Necros don’t need more party support skill and traits. We only need to be able to use the skills we already have.

Steelstickfig.9146:

Another big issue I find with Unholy Martyr is it’s lack of synergy (both functionally and thematically) with the rest of the line. The way I see it, before BM can be called a group-support tree it should be called a life siphon and healing tree.

Every single other trait in the line has something to do with healing or sustain (Banshee’s Wail is a bit of an outlier, but not much considering the sustain aspect of warhorn 5).
Unholy Martyr is different. Sure, it’s group support and sustain, but it accomplishes that through condition and life force manipulation – two things that are nowhere else in the line. The trait is just the perfect garbage storm of having no synergy, being overtly situational, and not even that great when the situation calls for it.

My suggestion would be to attach some sort of transfer aspect to it, maybe have the trait cause some shroud ability to auto transfer (maybe even the auto, only with a reasonable ICD). While this certainly doesn’t fit with the rest of BM, neither does Unholy Martyr.

As for swapping it with Unholy Sanctuary… Martyr definitely has way more synergies with Death Magic due to it having more condition manipulation traits. However, it cannot be forgotten that it was nerfed due to these synergies with minion traits that allow for easy condition trading.

Totally agree. I think swapping it into curses would also be better, maybe by combining it with Parasitic Contagion. I’d like to see Unholy Sanctuary in Blood Magic (Maybe rename it Blood Haven) and have some sort of real sustain GM in Death. I’d leave the trait with the name Unholy Sanctuary and have it do something like gain 1 second of invulnerability when entering and leaving shroud.

spoj.9672:

Would be nice. But its not really a priority problem. I will admit it is pretty silly that they add the whole skill display in hero panel but they forget to add certains skills.

That’s all I’m saying. It not a mechanic problem so not a priority but at the same time this won’t effect balance and won’t need to be intensely play tested. Thus it might be easier to implement than other things thus right in line with the changes ANET actually likes to make.

mazut.4296:

Akrasia.5469:

A suggestion to make Unholy Martyr better would be to have it proc For Each Condition gained not just each condition drawn. That way it would be a general anti condition trait and not just something that relies on nearby allies to be useful. Maybe make lifeforce gen a lower say 4-5% but proc every 2sec to draw conditions. It would also sync well with other skills&traits like Corruption where self inflicting conditions would give you LF.

As it is it’s barely Master level useful let alone Grand Master. Grand Master traits should be the backbone of most builds. The way I suggested would would for a lot of condition manipulation builds.

To proc from corruption skills is good idea, but it can’t work at its current state, you cant use utilities in Shroud :/

Yeah that’s the point in it’s current state it just sucks completely as a GMaster trait. To clearify I suggest it procs for every condition you get not just ones drawn from allies and procs from corruption skills. It should work in and out of shroud but just at a lower LF gain per condition.

Here’s what’s wrong with it currently:
Very Situational: as you have to be in shroud & around allies with conditions so you may never use this in a fight. NO GM trait should be used so little.
Completely Passive: It’s not a trait that you can use when you want and doesn’t sync with any of your skills (barely works with Plague signet)
Too Slow: At 3 seconds to proc you might only get a 1 or 2 procs when entering shroud.
In Blood Magic: Going back to the OP suggestion, Yes Blood is the trait line that helps allies the most but putting the only GM traits that support allies in the same line takes away from build diversity. If i wanted to make a true support build I’d want both condi removal and something else like Well protection or extra healing… Now you only get to pick 1.. not cool.

I think Necros need an Elite skill similar to the Sylvari skill Take Root. As a Sylvari Necro as my main I actually use this skill a lot for PvE and WvW. It’s my only source of damage negation.

Perhaps a copycat skill for Necros where were sink into the ground and and Summon 5 Shambling horrors and gain invulnerability & self chill for 3 seconds.

A suggestion to make Unholy Martyr better would be to have it proc For Each Condition gained not just each condition drawn. That way it would be a general anti condition trait and not just something that relies on nearby allies to be useful. Maybe make lifeforce gen a lower say 4-5% but proc every 2sec to draw conditions. It would also sync well with other skills&traits like Corruption where self inflicting conditions would give you LF.

As it is it’s barely Master level useful let alone Grand Master. Grand Master traits should be the backbone of most builds. The way I suggested would would for a lot of condition manipulation builds.

Really am I the only one having an issue with this?

Unholy Martyr needs something like gaining a stack of might for each condition transferred. I do like the swap idea.

Can we PLEASE see our shroud skills in the build panel. This is a pure QoL thing that should have been here a long time ago. I’d like to be able to see ho builds effect teh numbers on my shroud skill without having to memorize them and switch into shroud.

Ok getting our utility skills while in shroud will likely never happen. Also the Quality of Life request of seeing cooldowns in shroud doesn’t seem like it’s going to happen anytime soon or at all. So here’s another idea to give shroud more flexibility without overpowering it.

Have new skills for slots 7-9 but they must be traited to work. For example if a certain Grandmaster trait is picked in Soul Reaping then the 1st available shroud slot will be the new skill it unlocks. Let each trait line have a shroud skill. Certain weak traits that could be prime candidtates for example make Dhummfire when traited add a skill to shroud “attacks inflict burning” duration 5 seconds cooldown 12 seconds. (Don’t kill me on the numbers it’s just an example). This way we can somewhat customize our shoud to suit our play style and it would make balancing the class easier for Devs as all the things we lack can be added in a very select and controlled way.

So anyone like this idea? Also give your odds of something like this being implemented
I say it has a 10,000 to 1 shot of happening.

Thank you for the fixes The moon and moving head look awesome. I’d still like to hear the howl louder but it’s not a deal breaker by any means

I appreciate the work you put into getting this back on track. Thanks again

msquared.3452:

i dont know how to feel about this topic. i can kinda understand ppl’s anger but im lost. i just crafted my howler literally 5mins ago, and i love it. main reason i wanted it was to pair it with frostfang and have the overlapping auras. but at the same time i absolutely love the addition they gave to kudzu. i was overwhelmed with joy with them. i never got to experience the old howler. and i dont know what i missed out on. what i do want is the starie particles that used to exist before

I think I’d be less upset if that was my main reason for crafting Howler. But I took 3 years to finally get a Legendary and its one that is hardly noticeable on it’s own. Yeah pairing it with Frostfang would look fine as Frostfang would be the main look with Howler supplementing it with the fog aura but what about those of us who only have Howler.

On top of that much of the anger was about the lack of communication and now that we are getting some real status updates I’m sure a lot of it will subside. I may even start playing GW2 as my primary game again.

Personally I want to craft Astralaria instead of Frostfang. I think Astralaria will go VERY nicely with Howler if the moon and sparkly effects come back.

Thank you so much for the update. Hopefully the worst is behind us now