Guild Wars 2

I was doing a 5v3, 5 of us vs 3 pu mesmers. Took forever to win. Sometimes i dont even bother fighting them for the simple fact they have to much stealth, gw2 pvp in general annoys me sometimes

Plain and simple, this build is one with far to much survivability and has way to many cards to play in a fight. good thieves and diamond skill eles usually win in a 1v1 situation. But id rather fight a hammer war, a bs thief and a condi engi, than 3 pu mesmers, for the simple fact they are to annoying to fight. Not even fun just annoying. The whole idea of stealth and let your phantasms do all the fighting for you is a boring concept to play and fight imo.

The more support the better the chances…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Ok-downed-state-in-pvp-seriously/page/2#post3393865

You must of been facing a balls to the wall condi necro. To bad an ele with diamond skin wasnt around

There should be something shiny in the middle of ruins. Like orichalcum ore to encourage players to go collect it, while also encouraging small scale fights in those areas

Pinko.2076:

Downed state is a mechanic to help casuals and zerging. Rallying intensifies it and adds a layer of exclusion an insecurity. Both should be gone, but rallying would also be a good candidate to get the boot.

People disagreeing are suffering from the normal side effects of gamers being afraid of any change. The utility and positioning tax on committing to a stake is a straight advantage to the side that has more utilities (aka, more players~!) and can afford to be in more controlling positions (aka, side with more players~!)

OP just take solace in that you’re right, but in this forum you’ll get a LOT of resistance from people that prefer a casual gamestyle because this is ultimately a very low skill cap game. Anet wants it to stay casual friendly, so downed state will stick around.

There’s a higher chance of getting rallying removed, because that can objectively be seen as good for both the people that want a better game and people that just want to play casually.

I’m afraid you’re right but hopefully Anet see’s this and reads through everything. They should at the very least TALK about the state of pvp and how downed-state + rally is effecting competitive play.

When even just the minority of people in support of downed state say something like “skill being the overwhelming determining factor for victory in pvp is a bad thing” it kind of makes me lose hope for the future of gw2’s pvp community. Are these the people Anet listens to when thinking about pvp?

You’re just going to have a pve community that wants to run around and fight keep lords all day at this rate. For what it’s worth I’m glad to the people who support me in the efforts to get downed state removed and i love all of your examples as to why it’s unfair (so similar to my own) and I’m going to continue to try and get my point across while I actively play this game.

Mantheren.5428:

If its not getting removed, how about we just pretend it doesn’t exist.

Start a movement that:

• Don’t use any of the downed skills when killed (no attacking or healing, just bleed out).
• Don’t rez anyone.
• Don’t stomp anyone.

Basically treat it like a rez timer. If you are downed and happen to get hit by AOE you get a slightly shorter rez timer.

We’d kitten outselves in the process btw just did a 2v5 and literally had to drop 1 of them like 3 or 4 times before he actually died. Everytime we downed thief/mesmer would stealth their team mate. Such BS. Instead of dropping him repeatedly he should just die the first time around.

Nothing we can do when 4 people jump on him instantly as soon as hes downed. If this is the type of pvp gw2 promotes i can see why the pvp community is starting to dwindle compared to what it was when the game first came out, which wasnt all that long ago mind you. A game should be able to keep it’s pvp community satisfied but it looks like anet is catering moreso to the pver’s who are like “you know i think ill pvp with my friends today” if you stand there stationary clicking your abilities you deserve to die not be spam ressed by team mates just for the simple fact you have greater numbers.

Again… this is not how pvp works. Reward the skilled, encourage the unskilled to get better. Thats how pvp works, downed state makes them lazy especially zergers.

Aeonblade.8709:

Viking Jorun.5413:

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

I love that down state exists, it adds more elements of play. It brings in more strategy. I’ve often used downed teammates as bait so I can kill the person who downed them. Or I will use a downed enemy to bait his friend into trying to res him, then I beat up the guy ressing and I now have 2 kills!

The only real issue I have with down state is that it’s too easy to rally. In PvE I understand kill 1 mob, rally, ok. But in WvW you should have to meet some more criteria before you are allowed to rally off a certain target. I think either multiple targets should have to die to rally you. Or that you need to reach a higher damage threshold than just “tagging” someone. Possibly a combination of both.

As a WvW and sPvP player, I like that downed-state exists. I feel that the game meta would be so burst focused without it that it would be incredibly boring.

This. The downed state replaces the need for a dedicated healer class, and makes organized team play VERY rewarding, and also allows for organized teams to punish rezzing. It’s an active decision you have to make, and I can’t fathom why these threads still pop up every week. It’s part of the game and is actually one of the KEY things that makes PvP fun to spectate.

Watching someone you just slammed into the ground get back up in 5 seconds is SO rewarding and entertaining, do go on.

This made me see the potential for many good downed state willy wonka memes

style.6173:

Oozo.7856:

DeWolfe.2174:

Far too few have issues with the downed state. I think it’s fine as is.

The only people who don’t have an issue with downed/defeated state are the people who benefit from it which are the zerglings. So, yes… those who have an issue with it are in the minority.

Downed state is here to stay. What really needs to go is being able to revive people who have been spiked.

Not true. Small roaming teams benefit as well. The only people who don’t benefit are solo roamers since there is no one to res them.

Well actually it benefits whoever has superior numbers.

This can be 20 vs 30 or 30 vs 50 Basically downed state in general favors whichever server has more players in wvwvw. A better chance some random thief will come by, shadow refuge you and res you up, or any profession interupt the stomper and pressure them so they have to decide do i stomp or do i live.

As a solo roamer sometimes i am downed and a team mate will show up out of the blue and save me or even a group of people. As much as i dislike that and i now have taken away a rightfully earned kill to someone. I’m not going to get mad at my team mates for doing so, I do feel like i should have already been dead though.

So it’s not just for solo roamers it’s in a way a pestilence to everyone at one time or another. Pvp should be unforgiving, skill should be the determining factor in a fight. that’s why i pvp daily. why is it so care-bearish?

I’m just gonna say im a scepter/focus condi ele and not to long ago i fought a level 80 gs/sw war, a lb/sb ranger and a staff/scepterx necro. Beat them all only falling below 90% for a short while.

Aeonblade.8709:

Senjun.8149:

snacktime.1082:

Erebos.6741:

snacktime.1082:

[1] Down state is a mechanic to cap the power of highly skilled, experienced players. [2] If power scaled with skill, then 10 mans would be wiping 60 man zergs. Ditto for aoe caps. [3] A game that lets experienced/skilled players completely dominate would end up driving most people away, and become a niche game with a much smaller population.

1. Down state isn’t needed to cap player power. Limited player capability already does this
2. Power does scale with skill. But because players have limited capability, skill isn’t the only factor for determining combat and therefore quantity yields an advantage
3. True! However segregating players based on skill directly solves this problem

Power and skill do not scale on the same curve. Outnumbering your opponent gives a huge advantage by design, through mechanics like down state and in combat rezzing.

There have been other games such as Daoc where power and skill scaled much more in line with each other. A 10 man squad could take out a 100 man zerg. Not every day, but I saw it happen more then a few times. Unskilled, inexperienced players were at a huge disadvantage.

Down state plus low damage output/weak healing and high health pools is what makes superior numbers the first order optimal strategy. If you took out the down state, skill would become much more of a factor in most fights.

And in pvp that’s a good thing. That is what brings pvpers from other games that are to care-bearish to games that offer more in terms of skill.

If 10 people are good enough to beat odds even as much as 3 to 1, they deserve to win instead of just going “ok lets down as many people as we can we can’t possibly win this due to downed state” they should be able to go "ok lets try and kill all of them.

Without downed state for example a group of 10 people could charge into a group of 30 and have hope for winning. But with downed state that group of 30 not only has the advantage of superior numbers but also the advantage of more hands to res allies and more numbers to protect downed allies by pressuring stompers,interuptign stompers, stealthing/shielding/ aoeing all over the downed areas. This is unfair.

Why give handicap to those who already outnumber? I wish anet would answer that. THIS IS NOT HOW PVP WORKS

This post is a gem. I remember our well organized 2 group 16 man zerg in DAoC was able to take down 2 to 3 times our numbers because we were in vent together, organized, and played on a superior level.

This game has never given that kind of opportunity, and with downed state active, you have no hope of advancing a horribly outnumbered fight and taking the win.

Having the skill to play and know your class in DAoC made a huge difference, even in zerg fights. It would be nice to have that warm fuzzy feeling of knowing you played your best and won, rather than knowing no matter how well you play you won’t overcome a much a larger force in GW2.

Very well said Senjun. +1.

Thank you btw, replies like this make me feel good

drazzar.3042:

DeWolfe.2174:

Far too few have issues with the downed state. I think it’s fine as is.

It’s just a sign that there are far too few who care about the game anymore.
I can’t believe that there are still discussions about down-state and rally – it’s just too strong. There are a lot of good reasons in this thread why it’s too strong, I don’t see why some of you guys still defend that kitten.

Another thing i don’t get is, why Anet not just gives every class the same downstate skills – autoattack, interrupt, heal – thats it…

Alot of people don’t read through the whole thread thats why, if they did they would see a couple peoples argument for keeping downed state is because in a nutshell… “skill being the overpowering factor in determining the outcome of a fight is a bad thing.” Makes me really sad lol. Are these really the kind of people I’m fighting when I pvp? No wonder the hardest part of most of my fights is actually stomping the player. and Ive been running scepter/focus condi ele for months.

However to the people who argue downed state is ok but rallying in pvp should be gotten rid of. I can agree with that but then the person just kind of lays there and dies slowly lol. If they only kept their 1 and 4 ability i wouldnt see a problem with that, if no one else is allowed to res them and they cant rally off of mobs or people. At least this way they can revive if their enemy runs off or if it’s a duel but still in my opinion i want to see it gone completely. No need to drag out someones death and forestall anothers victory. In pvp you need to stay on your toes, everyone getting a second, third, fourth and fifth chance is not how it should be and tbh this makes most zergers with superior numbers careless and lazy, where did all the intensity go?

snacktime.1082:

Erebos.6741:

snacktime.1082:

[1] Down state is a mechanic to cap the power of highly skilled, experienced players. [2] If power scaled with skill, then 10 mans would be wiping 60 man zergs. Ditto for aoe caps. [3] A game that lets experienced/skilled players completely dominate would end up driving most people away, and become a niche game with a much smaller population.

1. Down state isn’t needed to cap player power. Limited player capability already does this
2. Power does scale with skill. But because players have limited capability, skill isn’t the only factor for determining combat and therefore quantity yields an advantage
3. True! However segregating players based on skill directly solves this problem

Power and skill do not scale on the same curve. Outnumbering your opponent gives a huge advantage by design, through mechanics like down state and in combat rezzing.

There have been other games such as Daoc where power and skill scaled much more in line with each other. A 10 man squad could take out a 100 man zerg. Not every day, but I saw it happen more then a few times. Unskilled, inexperienced players were at a huge disadvantage.

Down state plus low damage output/weak healing and high health pools is what makes superior numbers the first order optimal strategy. If you took out the down state, skill would become much more of a factor in most fights.

And in pvp that’s a good thing. That is what brings pvpers from other games that are to care-bearish to games that offer more in terms of skill.

If 10 people are good enough to beat odds even as much as 3 to 1, they deserve to win instead of just going “ok lets down as many people as we can we can’t possibly win this due to downed state” they should be able to go "ok lets try and kill all of them.

Without downed state for example a group of 10 people could charge into a group of 30 and have hope for winning. But with downed state that group of 30 not only has the advantage of superior numbers but also the advantage of more hands to res allies and more numbers to protect downed allies by pressuring stompers,interuptign stompers, stealthing/shielding/ aoeing all over the downed areas. This is unfair.

Why give handicap to those who already outnumber? I wish anet would answer that. THIS IS NOT HOW PVP WORKS

I just hate all of it lol

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Ok-downed-state-in-pvp-seriously/first#post3379173

I know how you feel

Tibstrike.2974:

Senjun.8149:

Tibstrike.2974:

Rennoko.5731:

Jeydra.4386:

Aberrant.6749:

Yes you should be able to win a 1v3 if you outskill your opponents that much. They already have a number advantage (3x damage, cc, etc.). Why do 3 people need yet another advantage on top of that? Shouldn’t they learn to play instead of relying on a crutch?

Indeed, why should they? In 1v3 cases, let’s restrict the side with 3 to only using autoattacks.

Simply, you didn’t win the 1v3. You downed, but did not kill. What’s so different about that from “I got them to 50%, but not 0%”?

Because at 50percent hp I cannot spam f on my allies to heal them for ludicrous amounts of life.

The 3 players have every right to use any and all skills at their disposal before their hp reaches zero, at which point the downed mechanic is far too forgiving for the downed player and more so for certain downed classes

I don’t understand why people think a 1v3 fight should be handed to them. It’s a completely unbalanced fight. Yes there are people who can handle them, even with downed-state. But in all honesty, most fights should end with the group of three facerolling over the lone person.

If you are good/skilled enough to fight 3 people and win, you should be able to stomp them. If you can’t complete the stomp and kill them, then you are not as good as you think you are. End of story.

Not at all true. Stomping someone doesn’t involve skill. It invovles you being able to take a pounding for like 4-5 seconds straight. or for you to blow a damage reduction/invuln cooldown just to stomp an individual who you already bested in a fight.

The fight to get the person down took skill lol that means you are the superior player, however, the stomping part is what doesn’t take any skill at all. It’s a waste of time, it’s a snowball funfest and its a handicap to those who already have superior numbers (just incase this guy is good enough to take the 3 of us, let’s just keep ressing eachother till we win, he is going to run out of cooldowns eventually)

That’s why this doesn’t belong in pvp.

Your problem is that you don’t seem to include down state as part of the fight for some reason. Everyone has it, and hell, people can trait to due lots of damage in it as well. So when you go into a fight, you have to position yourself with this in mind. This may include dragging the fight away from the downed person and rapidly moving back for the stomp. If you watch people fighting solo in outnumbered fights, they take this state of the game and include it in their playstyle. People wait for people to start ressing and unload on the rezzers. Even if they get their friend up, you now have 2 people with less than 50% health to deal with instead of one down, and one with full health. Keep the pressure on em and they will go down. Then stomp.

I hate to say this, but its a l2p issue. Learn to fight with downed-state in mind and you will have an easier time. If not, go to fight clubs or duel locations and feel free to just down people and back off. Don’t take on 3 people and expect them not to rez eachother. This is not a fair game. Especially WvW.

This isn’t an l2p issue at all. Everything people have suggested in here “do this, do that! Downed state isnt so bad” I do it all the time because I have to. Questioning my common sense as a pvper in these situations is pretty unnecessary and so is giving suggestions, i know what im doing.

I do fight with downed state in mind all the time I have to, it’s like a pair of shackles i can’t remove and meanwhile (since im always fighting against the odds) it’s a pair of crutches to my enemy.

But just because downed mechanic is part of this and im fully aware of it, does not mean i can’t suggest for it to be tweaked or even removed. As a pvper who still usually manages to come out on top in these situations i find it to be a complete inconvenience. It’s not fun, or engaging to then have to stomp my enemy after i worked so hard to knock him down. Especially not when i have a backstab thief on me while he has a friend over there ressing him back up. Then the fight starts all over again and i have to drop him… AGAIN.

If i didn’t know how to pvp, i wouldn’t be complaining about the downed mechanic infact I would love it because that’s mostly who the downed state favors. The lesser pvpers. But as an active pvper i despise everything about it except for the fact i can troll zergs just outside of towers and keeps by going down, doing damage to siege and mist forming back inside when im downed.

Spicyhash.7605:

Downed state used to be an issue for me, now I don’t really care. With all of the stupid interrupts people have I can actually down them enough times to where they just die straight away. Unless you have ez-mode stomping like engi elixir, thief invis, mist form, etc, it’s not even worth it in a 1vX setting.

Rallying is too easy in general and there needs to be a smaller limit. The limit now is like 4 or 5 times before you just die anyway, but it needs to be two or even one rally allowed. There are NPCs almost everywhere in WvW and most downed skills have 900+ range so if you down someone they can constantly rally off of an NPC, and if you try to stomp they will just interrupt/friend will save/they’ll rally off an NPC. It’s total crap. I was 1v2’ing some people earlier and this guy kept rallying on wolves over by umberglade and I was eventually “outplayed” (lol). I don’t expect downed to be removed permanently from WVW because too many people would cry and ANET just doesn’t care in general, so greatly reducing the amount of rallies before death is the only solution.

The real problem is full reviving from death. This should not be possible in WvW. Straight to spawn, or just lay there dead. Idc about spying, but being able to power rez your team mates is just so kitten cheap and it shouldn’t be in WvW. There is literally no point to doing anything not zerg v zerg if people can just come back indefinitely.

I can see your point. If anet is so hellbent on keeping downed state in pvp then they should at the very least increase the amount of time it takes to res someone. (damage interupts the action, healing reduced by 50-80%, downed skills #2 and #3 removed) so much can be done.

If i down someone and immediately go for a stomp. within half a second someone starts to res them, they will res faster than i can stomp. That’s a problem that needs to be looked into at the very least.

Or at the very least give the people who just rallied a debuff called “wounded”

what wounded means is you just got your kitten handed to you and you need to recover. While in wounded state you deal 50% less damage and take 50% extra damage for 10 seconds.

Tibstrike.2974:

Rennoko.5731:

Jeydra.4386:

Aberrant.6749:

Yes you should be able to win a 1v3 if you outskill your opponents that much. They already have a number advantage (3x damage, cc, etc.). Why do 3 people need yet another advantage on top of that? Shouldn’t they learn to play instead of relying on a crutch?

Indeed, why should they? In 1v3 cases, let’s restrict the side with 3 to only using autoattacks.

Simply, you didn’t win the 1v3. You downed, but did not kill. What’s so different about that from “I got them to 50%, but not 0%”?

Because at 50percent hp I cannot spam f on my allies to heal them for ludicrous amounts of life.

The 3 players have every right to use any and all skills at their disposal before their hp reaches zero, at which point the downed mechanic is far too forgiving for the downed player and more so for certain downed classes

I don’t understand why people think a 1v3 fight should be handed to them. It’s a completely unbalanced fight. Yes there are people who can handle them, even with downed-state. But in all honesty, most fights should end with the group of three facerolling over the lone person.

If you are good/skilled enough to fight 3 people and win, you should be able to stomp them. If you can’t complete the stomp and kill them, then you are not as good as you think you are. End of story.

Not at all true. Stomping someone doesn’t involve skill. It invovles you being able to take a pounding for like 4-5 seconds straight. or for you to blow a damage reduction/invuln cooldown just to stomp an individual who you already bested in a fight.

The fight to get the person down took skill lol that means you are the superior player, however, the stomping part is what doesn’t take any skill at all. It’s a waste of time, it’s a snowball funfest and its a handicap to those who already have superior numbers Gw2 logic: “just incase this guy is good enough to take the 3 of us, let’s just keep ressing eachother till we win, he is going to run out of cooldowns eventually”

That’s why this doesn’t belong in pvp.

Tricare.2946:

Jeydra.4386:

Too bad?

That’s like saying Mist Form, Distortion, Death Shroud, etc, are far too forgiving and should be removed.

I have a feeling you go down a lot when you have 2-3 people against 1 person.

Not directing this at anyone but that is unfortunately who the downed state mechanic favors.

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

Alt-F4 does nothing. I still get your bag and wxp. In fact, if you alt-F4, you are giving your opponent something better than killing you… they made you quit. They still got everything they would have if you had died (your loot) but now you also have to either stay offline or reconnect, and possibly re-que. That’s way better than a straight up kill. I love it when people [Alt-F4] against me.

Senjun.8149:

Basically if your build isn’t yours i don’t see you fit for stomping me because its not you who won the fight. It’s whoever made that build for you.

Sorry to tell you, but there’s not really any original builds left. Some people fine tune their builds based on personal preference, but the main elements of each build are still there.

“Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination.” -Jim Jarmusch

“Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren’t very new after all.” -Abraham Lincoln

“Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal.” -T.S. Eliot

Are there builds out there that are possibly too powerful? Yes.

Are there builds that YOUR build won’t be able to counter? Yes.

Are there enemies that are running builds that YOU will counter? Yes.

Are you going to learn anything about the fight if you Alt-F4 from it? No.

Nobody uses what I’m using lol and i seem to manage just fine in even most 2v1 situations.

People who just hop on google and go “best X pvp build” and copy it trait for trait, sigil for sigil, armor for armor, and rune for rune gain no respect.

I always alt-f4 when i die unfairly. If i lose to someone who all they do is slap conditions on you and watch you die as they spam fear, ill alt-f4 or sometimes even stunlock wars but only well geared ones pose a problem.

Basically if your build isn’t yours i don’t see you fit for stomping me because its not you who won the fight. It’s whoever made that build for you. But if it’s not the main meta and you’re using a build that requires skill and actually beat me then sure go ahead and stomp w/e.

If I’m outnumbered, i alt-f4. Usually try to before to many people get to hit me so less people get credit where it isn’t earned.

snacktime.1082:

Down state is a mechanic to cap the power of highly skilled, experienced players. If power scaled with skill, then 10 mans would be wiping 60 man zergs. Ditto for aoe caps. A game that lets experienced/skilled players completely dominate would end up driving most people away, and become a niche game with a much smaller population.

The down state works quite well for what it was intended to do. It’s frustrating at times, but I’d rather see a game where the large majority of people can have fun and get in a win, then a game dominated just by the hardcore players.

What? A game that lets skilled and experienced players hold their own against multiple enemies would be such a travesty!

That’s basically what you’re saying. If I or anyone else am skilled enough to hold my own in a 1v3 then we deserve to win, those 3 deserve to be on the floor deader than roadkill. Even with friends in a 3v 8+ it’s already hard to win against odds like that but when downed state comes into the equation it just complicates things so much more.

We can down someone but when 2-5 people instantly jump on his body they res him faster than i can push F to even start the stomp.

And removing downed state won’t drive people away that’s a ridiculous thought. No body says " I play gw2 because of downed state" thats like saying “i play gw2 because i die all the time” If anything doing this will just bring back the better pvpers that anet chased away.

Aberrant.6749:

ATM it just promotes blobbing too much and needs to be toned down.

Jeydra.4386:

Eh, are you complaining that you can’t win 1v3s because the downed state exists? It’s a 1v3. Are you even supposed to be able to win that?

Yes you should be able to win a 1v3 if you outskill your opponents that much. They already have a number advantage (3x damage, cc, etc.). Why do 3 people need yet another advantage on top of that? Shouldn’t they learn to play instead of relying on a crutch?

My point exactly

kelman.9451:

I was never a big fan of downstate in PvP or WvW either, but I doubt they will ever remove it.

This is how i feel unfortunately anet looks at this as a unique “we thought of it first” sort of thing (call of duty last stand anyone?) but to the other poster, i wouldn’t mind downed state abilities #2 and #3 being removed either. In a fight where im outnumbered i don’t bother trying to stomp thieves because they take to long to stomp.

Teleport away from my stomp last second, then invis for my 2nd stomp. I knocked you into downed state faster than i can stomp you in it. Just sad really this mechanic ruins alot of pvp experiences for me. Meanwhile you’re other 2 teammates are stabbing me in the back while im trying to finish off this person who i already bested in battle.

Don’t get me wrong downed state saves me all the time as an ele, i just mist form into the nearest tower/keep entrance all the time. Impossible to kill me if im near a tower or keep entrance. But im not bias in my decision. I still believe this needs to be gotten rid of in pvp. Downed state is what makes me reconsider going back to other games for pvp.

MiLkZz.4789:

3vs1

I down one and do use my invulnerability to stomp him, now it is 2vs1 and I am still good in health. Play defensively for a bit now till your health is good and your burst is back, down 2nd player. Last one tries to rezz him. No problem, damage him as much as you can. Now you have 2 downed or 2 very weakened players. Finish the job and done.

I don’t really have anything against downed state, sometimes it works against me, sometimes it works in my favor. I don’t think it helps the zerg at all. I love seeing them trying to rezz and bomb on that location just to see the downed die and the rezzers getting downed.

Nope I like downed state.

If i was fighting 3 uplevels then i could do this however vs competent players downed state makes it near impossible for me to win any 2v1 or 3v1 situaiton where i don’t have my invuln up.

Unrelated to the quote, i feel like downed state is really just for all the lesser pvpers in pvp who get dropped to fast to get a second chance. Stomping someone gets me killed more than actually dying fair does. why? Because even if i do stop them using an invuln i now just wasted my invuln killing somebody who should already be dead.

I know there has been alot of threads on this but looks like they are old or I just missed one because my eye sight is bad, judging by older threads most pvpers don’t like downed state its a zerger/pve favored thing.

The one problem I have with gw2 pvp is downed state. I feel like thats something that belongs in PvE becasue for some fights you practically need it. But in pvp it’s just unfair. It’s a handicap to the players who have superior numbers.

Although in some much more rare situaitons where it favors the underdogs, the majority of the time it favors those who outnumber.

Let me give an example, so when I’m roaming alone as a scepter focus ele and I have to put extra effort into my fights, when I fight 3 on 1 and I keep dropping them but they keep rallying and ressing eachother (because what am i gonna do if my invuln is on CD?) I can’t afford to sit there and stomp you, i have 18k hp and I can’t afford to save my invuln for that moment because im fighting 3 on 1.

So when i drop someone in that situation i expect them to stay dead because it’s only fair.

Another example, say 30 people are sieging a tower. You have 8 people inside and most of them are on arrow carts. No matter how many people you down with those AC’s you can expect them to pop back up like daisies because they have a zerg out there. There is no hope in defending it unless u keep destroying their siege because killing the zergers themselves is out of the question due to downed state.

I believe removing downed state from pvp would make pvp more enjoyable. Maybe keep it in the obsidian sanctum because that’s more of a duelers area now but in borderlands/ebg/spvp just remove this pestilence known as downed state.

hyman.7526:

Actually, it was strong against my pure PU mesmer (staff and scetper/torch). There’s no way to break a d/d eles hp with that. A simple fix was just to respec to hybrid variant of condi PU. But, I dont like how I am forced to play hybrid now or stand no chance to diamond skin.

Spam stealth like a good mesmer and run away?

Eles have no tricks up our sleeves. We aren’t going to stealth away we aren’t going to CC you into submission and we aren’t going to dash off in a hurry. We are like necros. We have to stand our ground and fight.

Necros have double our healthpool (4 times as much counting death shroud) and eles have condi immunity above 90% hp? Take this away and we can go back to having nothing so little overpowered google build mesmers, necros and engis can kitten on us again

Because gw2 revolves around 1v1. This trait is rendered useless in group fights. Unless you all happen to be running carrion. In which case condition builds are overpowered and over used and now have a hard counter.

DeckerDontPlay.1639:

Not enough nerf is not enough.

Let me provide some motivation, pretend the rune set is an elementalist.

Are u saying to make it useless and non-threatening?

Sorry you can’t just slap every condition in the game on us in a matter of seconds and watch us slowly die as u spam fear?

This build is great 1v1 but it is strictly for dueling. A scepter/focus ele can only damage 1 person at a time really. So far I’ve been using a similar build and i can 1v2 at most, but 3 overwhelms me and makes the grandmaster trait useless as we don’t have enough healing to get back up to 90%+

But yes this build is almost exactly like mine and in any 1v1 situation u should come out on top if you have the right amount of skill.

Weaknesses found so far- Staff wielding condi cleansing, condi mesmers. Meditation heal specced gs guardians.

juno.1840:

Senjun.8149:

The only time this is any good, is runinng away at 100% hp or if a necro comes up and randomly blows all of his wells on you first thing.

But what he can do is have his golem ram you for like 3k dmg, then blow all of his wells on you and you aren’t recovering from that because u now have a useless GM trait.

Not true — the trait is not suppose to be “god mode”… nor is it “easy mode”. It’s simply another tool available to you as a player (and it’s a good tool).

If you get hit for 3k, then top yourself off so you’re back above 90%.

What did players expect for this trait? Seriously? I think it’s very good, but I see many complaints about the 90% mechanic. I’ll ask you this: What threshold would make this trait “good” for you? Can you provide an answer that doesn’t make people laugh?

85% would be alot better. It is a grandmaster trait John sharp was thinking about lowering it to 85% or heightening the elementalists health pool. It was discussed at their meetings he said.

But ofc being bad at balancing anything anet did what they did best. Nothing.

The only time this is any good, is runinng away at 100% hp or if a necro comes up and randomly blows all of his wells on you first thing.

But what he can do is have his golem ram you for like 3k dmg, then blow all of his wells on you and you aren’t recovering from that because u now have a useless GM trait.

reikken.4961:

EchenSketch.9142:

Am I the only one who sees these changes as a nerf?

yes

No he isn’t lol infact most of the ele community including some of the most well known and esteemed eles, know that this is a nerf.

You can’t take elemental attunement and cleansing wave and move up to master tier without stamping a big NERF sign on this update.

Keep in mind the current master tiers you’re using now will have to be switched out for these 2 abilities in order for you to function properly as an ele. IMO elemental attunement needs to be made as a base ele mechanic rather than a trait. We all use it because we have to.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Why give up on the ele two days before the buffs?

Lol you call those buffs? Go to the mesmer forums and ranger forums and see what they are getting. Now THOSE are buffs and big ones at that.

We are getting nerfed VERY hard because they are moving two essential traits for any decent ele up to master tier which also forces us to remove our current master tier selections for these ones. Major major nerf.

You really have to wonder how difficult it is for people with focusing issues (actual medical issues on focusing on one thing at a time taking into consideration the attention span and their eyesight) to fight mesmers. Automatically the playstyle of a mesmer puts them at near invincibility against players such as this.

oZii.2864:

@ Seraph I enjoyed watching your duels with that build was very different and good. A S/F condi ele smashing the prismatic mesmers was nice to see.

@ Lightning it was some time ago. That wasn’t the same ele though I think this was a male. I don’t think I ever ran into your ele before

Thank you I’m having lots of fun with it glad you like it

oZii.2864:

Senjun.8149:

You might have seen me dueling actually lol i just recently made my own perplexity ele build 3 days ago with scepter/focus i don’t use dagger.

It’s absolutely beast mode 1v1 but lackluster in group battles I have yet to lose a duel against anything that isnt a hammer war

Seraph?

Yeah how did you know it was me! lol oh i just read your comment haha <3333 i remember you

You might have seen me dueling actually lol i just recently made my own perplexity ele build 3 days ago with scepter/focus i don’t use dagger.

It’s absolutely beast mode 1v1 but lackluster in group battles I have yet to lose a duel against anything that isnt a hammer war. Pretty much dominates condi engies/mesmers. Sometimes condi necros give me a problem. Thieves can’t kill me no matter what they try to pull and most classes can’t run with 50% chill/cripple uptime. Comet with water traits being a 20 sec aoe interupt is my main way or getting those confusion stacks.

Durzlla.6295:

Senjun.8149:

Durzlla.6295:

Kamui.3150:

Taldren.7523:

To be honest, I am not sold on trying to shoehorn elementalist into being a condition class. That said, if it were to happen … I would say Poison fits better in the Water line.

If there was a condition ELE you would want one condition type per attunement so you never locked yourself out of your damage output.

Here are the holes that needed to be filled (with Poison included):
Control / Damage / Boon
Fire: (( )) / Burning / Might
Earth: Cripple / Bleed / Protection
Water: Chill / ((Poison)) / Regeneration
Air: Weakness / (( )) / Swiftness

Actually, I’ve been figuring for a while that there should be a Master tier trait that causes Chill to deal damage, similar to how Necros have one that enables Fear to deal damage. It’d work for an Ele, and make it so, if you trait right, you could use that as well as Poison on Burn to make an Ele a viable condition user. It makes it so that an Ele at its base is a jack of all trades, but when traited/geared properly, can focus more on one area at the detriment of others.

I was just talking about that with my friend lol, make a grandmaster water trait called Frost Bite that made chill deal damage.

I wouldn’t mind this, it would make taking traits such as soothing wave alittle bit worth while.

The problem with the frost idea though is that our chill durations are very short lived but on very long cooldowns. The damage would need to be substantial.

Also it doesn’t fix the problem that ele doesn’t have enough conditions. Our conditions are easily cleansed repeatedly because we don’t have access to alot of them. Maybe if chilling your enemy caused a whole new condition to appear called frostbite, that way it applies 2 conditions at once that need to be cleansed, wouldnt be such a problem but i do believe eles need poison for its heal reduction, even though sigil of doom is typically enough for one fight, we are very reliant on it if we want a condition build.

Our issue isn’t a lack of conditions, but a lack of damaging conditions, using the staff I’ve got access to vuln, chill, bleeding, burning, weakness, and blind, and immobile that’s a vast majority of the conditions in the game, could pretty easily add to that, not to mention with frost bite you could just take the glyph that makes all your spells have a 25% chance to apply chill…

A condi ele using staff is far less effective than a power ele using staff i don’t even want to go there. Staff has access to a nice amount of condis but you’re far more useful being a power ele or a heal ele because the condis are typical caused by aoe, in roam/duel situations it is unviable, where as both dd and scepter offer quick more convienient condition applications but again we lack what other classes have.

They have the bulk of their conditions clustered into 1 weapon set because they don’t switch attunes like us obviously. engis, mesmers and necros both have more conditions to apply than us, their conditions are on far shorter cooldowns than ours. Their conditions typically last longer than ours, but i think the only one we got better than everyone else is burning. Which is insignificant because burning alone is to easily cleansed.

You can argue our chills and cripples and vulnerability applications (shatterstone really?) will protect our burns and shortlived bleeds but they will not because they are on long cooldowns with shortlived durations and not only that but most of the times aren’t easy to apply.

As an ele i don’t expect most people to run condition builds very often because plain and simply the other classes are superior to us and the most important condition we lack is poison. Yes you can use doom but everyone else who can effectively run condi on a competetive scale has it on standby with cooldowns, even condi thieves. So it’s understandable alot of people here think its easy as pie till you actually break out that condi gear and try it yourselves. Like i am and have been for a while now and let me tell you it is lackluster compared to what else the ele is capable of and compared to what other people are capable of.

Wars are the best roamers.

Need i remind u guys a GS/hammer warrior can keep up with me while im using a firey gs? And manage to stop me in my tracks with this CC and gs cripple. The only way to outrun this overpowered power house is if i get a good headstart first.

Durzlla.6295:

Kamui.3150:

Taldren.7523:

To be honest, I am not sold on trying to shoehorn elementalist into being a condition class. That said, if it were to happen … I would say Poison fits better in the Water line.

If there was a condition ELE you would want one condition type per attunement so you never locked yourself out of your damage output.

Here are the holes that needed to be filled (with Poison included):
Control / Damage / Boon
Fire: (( )) / Burning / Might
Earth: Cripple / Bleed / Protection
Water: Chill / ((Poison)) / Regeneration
Air: Weakness / (( )) / Swiftness

Actually, I’ve been figuring for a while that there should be a Master tier trait that causes Chill to deal damage, similar to how Necros have one that enables Fear to deal damage. It’d work for an Ele, and make it so, if you trait right, you could use that as well as Poison on Burn to make an Ele a viable condition user. It makes it so that an Ele at its base is a jack of all trades, but when traited/geared properly, can focus more on one area at the detriment of others.

I was just talking about that with my friend lol, make a grandmaster water trait called Frost Bite that made chill deal damage.

I wouldn’t mind this, it would make taking traits such as soothing wave alittle bit worth while.

The problem with the frost idea though is that our chill durations are very short lived but on very long cooldowns. The damage would need to be substantial.

Also it doesn’t fix the problem that ele doesn’t have enough conditions. Our conditions are easily cleansed repeatedly because we don’t have access to alot of them. Maybe if chilling your enemy caused a whole new condition to appear called frostbite, that way it applies 2 conditions at once that need to be cleansed, wouldnt be such a problem but i do believe eles need poison for its heal reduction, even though sigil of doom is typically enough for one fight, we are very reliant on it if we want a condition build.

Chaosky.5276:

“In the context of biology, poisons are substances that cause disturbances to organisms, usually by chemical reaction or other activity on the molecular scale, when a sufficient quantity is absorbed by an organism.”

A poison can exist in any state of matter, and in other forms as well – radiation poisoning is the result of damage done to your cells by radiation.

People, please do not argue about a topic you are not well versed in. It’s not even that hard, just search “poison” and you’ll probably find solid info on the first page that comes up.

Basically this arguing about realism on a subject that doesn’t go against the laws of physics in a game where we shoot fire at eachother out of our hands is alittle unnecessary.

This is realistic to those who are unaware, breathing in to much fumes is toxic and depending on what type of fire it is it can be even more toxic, thus producing toxic fumes which u dont want to inhale even the slightest amount.

Now that that’s out of the way the reason i want this trait in fire is because fire is basically about conditions. It’s the traitline we get condition duration increased. Nobody ever uses it so if we were to put a poison proc trait in the fire traitline than we would see people coming up with all sorts of builds that involve them investing enough in fire to obtain the poison for various amounts of ideas for new builds. That’s the whole point of this. To add diversity to the elementalist profession because we are not seeing that anywhere.

He’s right actually maybe even being alittle nice with that 3/4 estimate its prob 4/5

Healing signet and control is the main reason people are running wars, they are heavy duty tank and damage deals with insane mobility, great control and very good condi immunity uptime who don’t even have to worry about hitting the heal button because its always ticking insanely high.

so yeah I’d expect to see alot of them

ThiBash.5634:

If you really want poison, you can use the weapon swap sigil that causes poison…and have 50% uptime without gear or traits.

The main thing however is that eles aren’t supposed to be condition spammers. They’re doing a bit of everything, and if you specialize them, they become less powerful overall. That’s the design philosophy and I doubt it’ll change. IMHO of course.

Ele’s lack diversity, you’re either a water field spammer or a power house with small amounts of condition damage. We can also do minimal condition stacking with a small amount of power damage to back it up. You really don’t see many diverse builds of ele although i understand your point of view of course! but although eles do a bit of everything you specialize in something.

Whether it be power, healing or condi dmg you are stronger in 1 of those areas. Eles who choose to be stronger in the condition area, are lackluster, we are the “Jack of all trades” but you really only see very limited builds of ele since our fire traitline and earth traitline are so under-rated

The Earth traitline isn’t bad in my opinion, people just tend not to use it because it passively boosts your condition damage, they usually take it for the toughness and has several good traits. Nobody take’s fire because its traits are very lackluster, fire is supposedly moreso about conditions but it doesn’t give us enough to work with.

This is all of course coming from personal opinion and observation

At least when i get jumped by 3 hammer wars next time, i might live for an extra second, and there’s nothing you hammer wars can do about it.

Kamui.3150:

If it were a guaranteed Poison application whenever Burning was applied with an ICD then I’d see no issues. That way it’s equally viable with Flame Burst on Staff and Drake’s Breath on mainhand Dagger. You could have a 5 sec Poison application with a 10 sec CD and you’d be pretty much set, maybe make it a Master tier trait.

That’s a good suggestion. I don’t see this being to powerful or to underwhelming either, but just right as a poison applying method for eles and yes i think Master Tier is the right place for a trait like this.

Durzlla.6295:

To be honest i would also be ok with a trait that made it so when our fire fields go away a poison field is left in its place, I’d say if it’s just a 30% chance when applying burning only give it like a 1-2 second ICD since we are lacking on burns, now if it had a chance to trigger on all our fire fields…. That’d be different xD!

I like the signet suggestions too!! I approve then all!

Thank you both! I’m glad to see people are finding my suggestions to be fair and a step towards bringing the extinct builds of ele bring closer to being balanced while adding diversity

kingcragus.6810:

OR you could learn to interrupt people.

You already defeated that player, why continue to have to waste your cooldowns? Especially if you’re already outnumbered.

Get rid of downed state from pvp as a whole it has no place here.

But ill take whatever i can get.

Fortus.6175:

Senjun.8149:

or perhaps you only get one token from the next player you kill so everyone can only vote once, avoiding zergers from tipping the scale because it shouldn’t be just decided by the massive zerg guilds

Certainly, big zergs would lose the most so it is not convinient for them, so yes, one vote per person would do it!! Maybe once a day so that “active players” still feel rewarde, perhaps it would work as an incentive for non-WvW players who left WvW dfue to down to go to WvW more than once!

This would be more than fair, I’m not gonna lie I purposely avoid coming on gw2 sometimes mostly because the downed state mechanic just pushes me away from pvp as a whole. All to often it’s more of an inconvenience for me because I like fighting against the odds but this is just a handicap for those who already have greater numbers.