Guild Wars 2

I think he means that the pip system rewards those who run around in blobs because they’ll have a much higher WXP total than those who don’t. This doesn’t just mean solo roamers, but smaller groups too.
Sure, you can eventually get to the same rank as blobbers do, but it’ll take you a very long time to even get to rank 620 and start receiving two(!) pips. To say nothing about gold and higher.

Here’s is the look I’ve stuck with the most so far. The concept behind it was to create something that actually looks like medium armor: leather reinforced with metal at places.

Chest: Glorious (sPvP)
Gloves, Shoulder, Legs: Kodan (HotW)
Boots: Norn Cultural T3 (Norn thieves ftw!)

Cynz.9437:

Basically, devs decided to nerf thief to a point where most players don’t enjoy it? Doesn’t sound like great design to me.

Correction: the devs nerfed the class to a point where most thief players don’t enjoy it.

Other classes don’t mind this at all, unless there’s a thief on their own team. But even in that case, it’s not like they are going to go to the forums to complain about thieves being useless. Only thieves would complain about thieves being underpowered.

And as the number of thief players decreases, the developers have less and less incentive to work on thieves. In the end, all they’ll do is to only put in a token effort to develop the class.
Seeing the quality of the daredevil, we might already be at this stage. Tuesday’s patch notes will reveal whether this is the case. That’s because we’ll see then if the developers are willing to put in any more effort than the minimum. (Said minimum is fixing the errors of the daredevil and tweaking its numbers for BWE3.)

First, to folks who said that the devs must still be reading the forums because they got infracted for something: actually, that’s the moderators and community managers, or whatever they call the people who have the unenviable job of having to read entire forum sections. They might pass on feedback to devs, or perhaps point out specific posts to which a reply might be appropriate. I imagine the developers will only play closer attention after the elite spec reveal, and BWEs. So that will be the time to post as much as we can.

Also, about “what until the elite is out to see if it solves our issues”: I don’t think that would solve any issues with other traitlines. Synergies might make them stronger than before, sure, but that’s not a solution to the issues themselves. Just a way to make people take said lines together with the elite.
For example, if Acrobatics were only good with the new elite, then it’d still be just as bad on its own.

Finally, @ Heapheaus: yeah, I’d probably do the same. The thing is, I don’t think that’s ever going to happen. Judging by how Anet has been changing things, I think that their directive is that thieves have to stay the most mobile profession. However, any other aspect is fair game. (Mesmers can out-stealth us, others can out-burst us, and so on.) This ensures that thieves still have a reason to exist, however small their niche is, and that complaints about them from other classes are kept as low as can be.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Been using [Scorpion Wire] for a few weeks and I’m getting much better in making it work besides condi clearing. Just don’t expect it to pull him to you. Use it as a condi clear first, a low cooldown interrupt second, and if it pulls, lucky you.

That’s a good idea.

Let me put it another way though: a skill is useful for an effect that was originally not intended (the condi clearing), and useful for what was originally intended as a side effect (the interrupt), but not at all useful for its original purpose.

Yeah, I think that’s another tell-tale sign of the class needing some dev attention.

Or to be sarcastic: scorpion wire is too RNG, time to remove it!

To be frank, if we got this Shiro legend as our elite spec, I would have been perfectly fine with that.

Anonymouse.4760:

I believe the intent of the change to acrobatics and vigor was to punish players like you who dodge without any real thought, though unfortunately they went about this the wrong way and gutted the trait-line in the process.

Personally, I’d like to believe that the intent was to reward players who dodge better than random chance, but be it either way, it doesn’t accomplish that. Even if somebody was so good that they’d successfully evade most of the time (>75% chance), they still wouldn’t get as much use out of the Acrobatics traitline as from other lines.
In short, it’s below par for everyone.

I often run 30 in acrobatics, and I don’t take any of the GM traits either. In my opinion, the other traits are more than good enough that it’s worth putting 30 points in just to take three of them. However, the ones unlocked at that tier (Quick Pockets, Hard to Catch) aren’t that grand.

More on topic: I’d rather that Hard to Catch be made into something that makes you, well, hard to catch. (As opposed to the current trait that sometimes ports you into the middle of an enemy zerg.) For example, a Mist Form-like transformation if you drop to 25% health. Just call it shadow form or something.

1) S/D SB
2) 10/30/0/30/0
3) WvW, PvE

1) P/D SB
2) 30/0/30/10/0
3) WvW

Sure, you can. You’ll pretty much have to focus your setup on Unload though. 0/30/0/20/20 would be a good example: pistol mastery, combo crit. chance, executioner, quick recovery, ricochet. Unless I’m mistaken, the latter works with Headshot (pistol #4) as well. Take Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and with those 20 points in Acrobatics, you can dodge around the battlefield while doing good damage from range. If you want more blinding combos than just Black Powder (#5), Smoke Screen would also be a good choice, though I’d prefer Blinding Powder to trade the combo field for some stealth instead.

I wouldn’t say it’s the best build ever, but it can be more effective than you’d first think. I’d rather take it to small group fights in WvW than to sPvP though.

Simonoly.4352:

Can Thieves use Shadow Escape to get through tower/keep portals? I’ve never actually had an opportunity to try it.

They can’t. Even if you port into the portal, you’ll just stay on top of it – and die.
The only way a downed player can go through a portal is if they use a skill that rallies them temporarily, so this club is exclusive to elementalists and warriors.

Thanks for the info! It’s good to know that the same limits do apply then.
By the way, venoms do get applied to server-coloured NPCs in WvW. Not just guards, in fact, as you can share the venoms with your dolyaks as well.
Hm, I wonder if that should be filed as a bug or not.

Blankverse.4927:

All thieves love to say “l2p”. Well, my friends, now i could reply: first learn to play without stealth, then we can continue this discussion.

You can’t do that, can you?

Mind you, we’re not friends, but I don’t love saying “l2p” either. However, I can say that I can, and so can anyone who’s running an evasion-heavy build. Been doing it since before culling was fixed. Look some up, they can be quite useful. Here is one example, and here is another.

So, what exactly were we discussing again?

Does anybody happen to know what’s the maximum number of allies that can receive shared venoms via the Venomous Aura trait? I think it’s around five, but I couldn’t determine it exactly yet.
This limit only really matters in WvW, but it would be good to know.

I’m not sure if escaping can really be considered “powered” in any way.

Also, I agree with Sycarius. Could you tell us what your point is?

I’d say Ambush and Shadow traps are fine, but the rest are too situational to be worth slotting. There are some nice synergies, true, but for two utility skill slots, you can get much more versatile skills.

A few ideas for traps then:
- Mini-Caltrops trap. It’d have to be less effective than the skill though, seeing that it’s a trap, and the thief needn’t be next to the opponents to trigger it.
- Smoke trap, like the smoke screen skill, except without projectile blocking, and in a circular shape.
- A sort of Anti-Shadow Refuge: the trap provides a pulsing dark field that damages enemies. Stealth for allies might probably be too much.
- Flashbang: a short area stun when it gets triggered.

However, given that there haven’t been any new skills since launch (IIRC), I wouldn’t hold my breath. I’m not sure if traps could be made more viable just by tweaking existing skills and traits. So, we’ll probably have to wait for an expansion, or a major classes update, till they’ll be more than a curiosity.

Aquin.3192:

use evasion as your invuln.

This.

Stealthing can be very useful for healing and condition cleansing, if you trait into it, but the only form of damage reduction it might provide is blindness.

On the other hand, evasion gives you a brief window of invulnerability, and more mobility. The best defense is not getting hit in the first place, after all. (Easier said than done though, heh.) Plus it will get you out of that red circle.

So, while it might not turn out to be your cup of tea, I’d still recommend that you check out evasion and shadowstepping. Let me know if you’d like specifics, such as skills and traits. In any case, have fun experimenting!

If you have Hard to Catch traited, then hitting an underwater enemy with Tow Line will activate the trait, porting you away and giving you swiftness. Assuming it’s not already on cooldown, of course.

@ Adaneshade: sorry, but the question was for neclon, who doesn’t have Shadow’s Rejuvenation traited in his build. I know that the two traits synergize well, but he only had 15 points in the line, and in my opinion, there are other tier 1 traits worth considering then.

@ matea: you can’t, but if you use return after that, you’ll still go back to your original place and get a condition removed.

@ neclon: out of curiosity, why Shadow Protector? The Healing Power of thieves is generally not so high, so you might be able to support your groupmates better if you blind your enemies more often. Cloaked in Shadows would be good for that, though Shadow Arts T1 has other very useful traits as well.

Oh, and regarding your original question: I’d say S/D is better for WvW 1vs1 or 1vs2 scenarios. You don’t have to focus on backstabbing (a rather predictable tactic) to deal good damage, and against two opponents, you can damage them both with your auto-attack if they are close enough to each other. Being able to cripple and immobilize your target(s) is also better than just being able to cripple them, especially if they’re trying to run away.

About FS: yeah, its only reliable use against players seems to be the boon removal with the first hit, and an unpredictable dodge with the second. (If you’re unpredictable, that’s good.) It can be used to damage players, but for that, you’d probably be better off with the auto-attack chain.

If both are 30/30/30/30/30, you might as well say that the Mesmer can summon a dozen clones.

Yeah, it’s not a reliable, easy-to-use skill, but if it actually works as you’d like, your opponent will usually be in deep doo-doo. Whether you think that’s worth it to keep the skill slotted is up to you: personally, I’m quite ambivalent on this.

Oh, and in WvW, it can be quite fun not to pull people off of walls (in my experience, most people know how to handle this by now), but to pull wounded people out of their groups and into yours. That’s one opponent who’s quite unlikely to be revived after getting downed then.

DISCLAIMER: the following post might be tl;dr. Read on if you’re curious about why someone would choose to play a Thief, skip the post if you just want to generalize.

I didn’t choose Thief first: in the first two beta-s, I played an Engineer. I didn’t like it that much, though, so I tried the Thief out (I did play an Assassin in GW1 for a good while) and stayed with it throughout. I very much liked the mobility of the class, and that you wanted to dodge, and keep dodging, because otherwise you’d drop quite quick. In my opinion, it’s a more engaging playstyle than many others.

I could care less about backstabs, though. As a tactic, it’s too predictable. I also don’t really feel like abusing culling, even if unintentionally – plus I leveled to 80 first before going into any PvP and WvW, and I didn’t find stealth very useful in PvE combat. Only when it came to avoiding it, heh.

So far, I pretty much stayed with the Thief because of its mobility and the style of play that comes with it. Mostly because I like roaming in WvW, helping out where needed, scouting in enemy territory, and distracting groups who think that they need ten people to chase a single thief, hehe. To me, it’s fun knowing that in such cases I have to be constantly alert, and if I slip up, I’ll most probably die.
To anyone who would say “but thieves can run away from any fight”: maybe, but try doing so in places where multiple enemy groups are moving about. It’s actually quite fun, in my opinion.

As somebody once said: “thieves is gorilla warfare!”

Heh, I can vouch for the 15/25 acro/trickery build too. With S/D, I usually don’t pump a lot of initiative into skills (the high cost of C&D notwithstanding), and as such, the damage bonus for initiative is quite consistent. If your playstyle with S/P is similar, then I’d recommend trying this trait setup (0/30/0/15/25) out. But if you find yourself running low on initiative frequently, you might want to try 20/20 instead.

I’d also recommend S/D over S/P though, since in my opinion the dagger off-hand skills complement the sword main-hand’s skills (well, mostly Infiltrator’s Strike, heh) better. I’d say that neither Flanking Strike nor Pistol Whip are very useful now, but FS at least removes a boon from your opponent with its first hit, which is also unblockable.

That’s a quite informative video for demonstrating bugs with those skills. Thanks a bunch for making it!
Oh, and I can confirm the error with Smoke screen. Haven’t really tried neither Tripwire nor Needle trap though.
But say, did you test Ambush and Shadow Trap too?

I’d say Executioner over Hidden Killer, as from what I heard, the latter doesn’t always offer a 100% crit. rate from stealth. Could be wrong, I guess, but in either case, I’d say that how good HK would be for you would depend on your crit. chance (what stats are you geared towards?) and how often you actually stealth in fights. Meanwhile, Executioner is a very nice passive bonus.

Blind on stealth is a fun thing, while stealth on steal is finicky: should you auto-attack immediately after you stealthed from steal, then the whole thing might have been pointless. Plus if you think about group fights, blinding your opponent(s) benefits your teammates as well.

Whether to ditch the 10 in Acrobatics to get Mug depends on what you actually use Acro. for, I guess. Mug’s a nice burst if you crit, but getting might on dodging is also nice. Let’s not forget that while 10 in Deadly Arts will give you +100 power and +10% condition duration, 10 in Acrobatics gives +100 vitality and +10% boon duration: which one works for you better also depends on your gear setup.

Hope that helped a bit. Have fun with S/D!

Female Norn to vendors: “We need to talk. NOW.”

I found the concept of a Norn female thief amusing, and I do like their voices.

Hm, Conquest… Short and to the point, and a bit better than Conqueror would be. It is impressive that you managed to grab the character name, nevertheless.

My turn: female Norn thief called Mardis Vaskemaskin.

Tulisin.6945:

Agemnon.4608:

But seriously, moral of the story: complaining on forums is a more viable strategy than learning how to play. Why try outdoing your opponent when you can just cry for fundamental gameplay changes?

This doesn’t make any sense, considering that the commonly complained about builds were not the ones most drastically nerfed. If anything, it shows that ANet is doing their own thing and not just following community sentiment for balancing.

Which would be a good thing, if we received any information from them about what their sentiment is. Or at least some reasoning behind the changes.

Unfortunately, without those, anyone’s free to make up their own “conclusions” as to what Anet thinks of the class, and what direction they want it to head in.

I’m not going to comment on the Lost Shores update until it’s done. However, in light of the unexpected and rather hardcore nerf that the S/D set (my favourite) has got, allow me to chime in with one thing:
The damage nerf would have hurt the set less if Flanking Strike were fixed / changed in any way that’d make it good at dealing damage to players.

Well, I would have been fine with it if they only modified it so that the second strike isn’t a fancy move, just a hit that deals increased damage if you’re attacking your target from the side or behind. Flanking, after all.

@ Lifeson: I can’t really recommend traits for you experiment a bit, see what suits you best. I can make some specific recommendations though.

Critical strikes is excellent, and it’s little wonder that going 30 into it is a staple of S/D builds. Rather than Hidden Thief (which I hear isn’t 100% crit chance from stealth at the moment), you’ll probably find Executioner more handy.

Shadow’s Embrace, last time I checked, does tick once when you enter stealth, then every 3 seconds.
Note that if you want to use Shadow’s Rejuvenation, you’ll want to get some gear that gives you +Healing Power. Well, you’ll probably want that anyway, since you’re not going for a glass cannon build. (Right?)

I tested Fleet shadow and the Signet of Shadows a few updates back, and I didn’t even notice a 8% movement increase: seemed to be exactly the same for me. In any case, you might want to swap SoS out for another skill or signet when you enter combat, and only use it for roaming.

Also, I’d recommend Master of Deception too. The -20% cooldown on Shadowstep, Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge and Smoke Screen work very well in WvW and S/D, in my opinion. Personally, I’d go for this instead of Cloaked in Shadow.

Perhaps the biggest difference is that the AI will always react with the same speed and in the same way, while players can be surprised. As it is, our chief weapons, surprise and fear, can be put to better use against players than against mobs.

I’d say that you should use the skill for its unikittenfect among thief skills: boon removal.
Hitting with the second strike is hard, but what people tend to forget is that you can hit a different target with it too. The skill still takes a lot more practice than all the other dual skills do, however: best to just use it to strip off boons, and as free dodges if the situation calls for it.

Oh, and don’t forget that the sword’s stealth attack blinds (instead of dazing) if you’re hitting from the sides, not from behind.
If you have more than one target, Dancing daggers become much more useful. For example, lone Ranger and their pet: two-two hits on each.

+1 for metaphorm. Couldn’t have said it better.

Yep, I’ve been using S/D for all kinds of PvP too. It isn’t a burst build, of course, but in my opinion, it’s better for mobility: the sword’s swing allows you to “dancing” around targets, and Infiltrator’s strike + Dancing dagger go very well together to slow your opponents down while you zig-zag all over the place. The latter can also do some decent damage, and if you’re not solo, it’s useful for combos as well.

I’d say that power/crit is a must, and traiting for stealth is also recommended: in my opinion, playing towards the strengths of your setup is better than trying to equalize its weaknesses. So, power/crit, stealth and/or mobility.

Oh, and Flanking Strike’s second strike might or might not be changed in the future: for now, I’d say it’s better to rely on it for boon removal instead. In my opinion, S/D’s dual skill is not as useful as, well, pretty much every other set’s, but otherwise the sword and off-hand dagger skills go very well together.
Well, you could also say that FS’s second strike is an unpredictable free dodge, hehe. But I’d say that the biggest problem with it is that the skill’s second strike is much harder to land than the first one, which is… fairly unique.

Isabis.9561:

I’ve tried power and condi builds. It’s either:
- spam HS 90% of the fight
- spam PW 80% of the fight, use infiltrators strike if kited
- spam Death Blossom 80% of the fight, use dodge when low initiative

Give Sword/Dagger a try then. I’d say that when it’s played right, it’s more effective than all of the above. Let us know what skills you’d spam with it, hehe.

Well, if you want to be all about stealth, you can take Hide in Shadows (30s CD) as your heal, Blinding Powder (60s CD), Dark Refuge (60s CD) and a dagger off-hand for the Cloak & Dagger skill. That would allow the thief to stealth often during a fight, and can even be traited to reduce the cooldown on BP and DR to 48s – but all that is balanced by having only one other skill (and the elite skill) available.

Oh, there’s also the Shadow Trap, but in my opinion, that’s highly situational.

In my opinion: no. None of the sword skills, either main-hand or dual, are projectiles, blasts, leaps or whirls. The only possibility I see where a combo finisher would be appropriate would be if Flanking Strike were redesigned to be a leap, perhaps a whirl – personally, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

Besides, sword have the advantage of being able to hit three targets in melee, and swinging in a wider arc: I’d say that and Infiltrator’s Strike are a pretty good trade-off for the lack of combo finishers.

“Is melee worth it?” Yes, if you think you can probably get away in time before you take too much damage. No if you probably can’t, since a flattened thief doesn’t contribute as much to a fight as a thief using ranged weapons does.

In my opinion, if you’re having trouble with mobs knocking you out, you should try dodging, or stealthing, or blinding, or dazing, or… well, pretty much anything, except fighting while staying still. To put it somewhat bluntly, thieves are not built for that.

1. Just like everyone else, not all Norn have to be honourable. For example: Sons of Svanir.

2. From behind.

So long as the mark doesn’t see you coming, nor hear you, nor smell you, your size is not very relevant.

Yep, it’s a handy and quite comprehensive guide. Well done!
It could use a bit more formatting though, so that it’s easier to read.

Allow me to chime in with one thing that I believe is worth noting. Before this change, HS’s “improved damage to weakened targets” kicked in at 66% HP, while as far as I know, every other effect against weakened targets (+20% damage from Executioner, 4s immobilize from Panic Strike, and so on) kicks in at 50% HP. After this change, unless I’m mistaken, every such skill or effect will trigger under half HP: HS is consistent with the rest then.

Besides, if you’re looking at a bar, it’s easier to approximate more precisely where 50% is than where 66% is.