Guild Wars 2

Not another one…… Please, someone, something, just make it stop.

Jure Simich.6154:

We, (OK, you guys, actually, since I’m a lurker), have discussed the optimum, coordinated synnergy maximizing builds for months. They’re beautiful to behold. But now, I’d like to talk about another kind of build – the PUG-proof builds ( I wouldn’t expect this pit of vipers to consider PUG friendly as a term…).

You should have stopped here. I’m sure you can guess why.

Hint: The moment you went on to mention Empower, you guaranteed that “this pit of vipers” would walk all over you.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Oh yeah? Every pug stacks on Lupi?

Fascinating. Tell me more about how you know nothing about bosses outside of AC.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Fun fact: Lilith is always right.

I’ve missed this. So much. Lilith > Lepton.

MastaNeenja.1537:

This is the only explanation I have as to why a no stack guild fails, and nontacking players don’t want to form parties together. Basically they are asking to be carried.

They will shout “Save us!”… and I’ll look down and whisper “No.”

That bolded part…. so perfect.

Well of course you’ll “be expected to adhere to some meta standard.” I’m happy to report that’s become a lot more common these days. Unfortunately, there is disagreement about what that meta standard is. A lot of ppl think the standard is still 4x wars/guard + 1x mes, but c’mon, that’s so 2013. Ele’s and Thieves are where it’s at these days!

Dual.8953:

With a new anti-meta thread appearing every week or so, it would suggest “play how you want” parties have become a rare breed among the parties being formed. In addition, with the number of metadungeoneers on this board it paints a picture where the dungeon pugging scene is currently, “you must stack, you must wear full zerker, you must skip, you’re on thin ice if you’re not a heavy, you have 10 minutes to complete this run” groups have become the general expectation of the dungeon community, and that “play how you want” parties have been all but choked out.

If only. It’d be a dream come true

As a side note, “you’re on thin ice if you’re not a heavy?” Eh, what? 2x Eles, 2x Thieves, 1x War is how I run most things these days. Thief + Sundering Strikes + Improvisation + Multiple Teleports + FGS = Win. We occasionally replace 1x Thief with a Guard, but only for a few dungeons.

Bump!

We’re at 40 members, and I’m still trialing ppl! Apply now!

Upgrade-wise, we’re:
Politics: IV
Art of War: IV
Economy: IV
Architecture: IV

The lvl 5 upgrades are currently building.

I second that! I’m a big fan of the Ele + Thief combo

Ryn.6459:

And what about engis? Are their dps too low to be on the list?

Engi’s are never needed in PvE. Why? Because their big thing is capping vuln, and that’s no longer needed. Why? Because Anet broke Sundering Strikes, so it no longer has an internal cooldown. Thief with Sundering Strikes + Improvisation + FGS + multiple teleports = win (and multiple applications of instant 25 vuln).

Bump!

Still hoping Anet will include this fix in the Ferocity update

CM 1’s on the “to-do list.” I still take too long solo’ing that first part on thief

That vid you linked was OP; everyone but you must have stealthed in and killed adds through walls, rather than having a thief solo it. We’ll have to try that.

I havent pug’d in a looooooong time. the 16 paths I listed are the ones I do with guildies every night, and unless I’m evaluating trials, they go very quickly and smoothly. Even with trial members, runs are still fast; I just need to explain things on TS as we go, which only adds a few mins to the runs.

everyone, even the trials, is full zerk + meta spec though. so if the OP is pug’ing, the only way he’ll get anything near a fast run is to require a gear ping. otherwise, bring on the bearbows and staff guards!

(Fracticals)

lol?

All AC, all CoE, CoF 1/2, SE 1/3, TA up/fwd, CM 3, HotW 1, Arah 2/3.

Bump

lets stick with him being 12. im American

edit: just join a dungeon guild, and you wont have to pug. problem solved! … ( DD is recruiting )

LH builds will probably be getting a buff with the Ferocity update, actually. Atm, the LH gives us 180 prec and 5% crit dmg. If that 5% crit dmg is changed to 180 Ferocity, that’ll be a buff. Although it definitely won’t make up for the overall nerf to crit dmg on our gear, it’s still something.

Iris playing a bearbow? The thought is appalling! Arthur trolls me enough with that cat of his named Imma Bear >.<

Uh, hold on, did I just read that right, Iris? There was a ….. (lowers voice) …. bearbow in your group? I thought Dolan and Colesy were signed up as meta mentors? If I get someone in a non-optimal spec, be it the dreaded bearbow ranger or staff guard, I talk to them about changing to the meta before I even open the dungeon.

Tree.3916:

On a side note. How are we determining if mentors know what they claim to know?

This is a very important question. There needs to be quality control of some sort for mentors.

Some suggestions for this….

Before being added to the guild roster/forum list as an Arah mentor, you must pass the DnT/LOD trial of a 3-man Arah p2. Or the rT trial of solo’ing Lupi Although ppl might complain that’s too strict.

Before being added the guild roster/forum list as a meta mentor, you must demonstrate knowledge of every meta. This could be done in two ways: 1) a thorough, lengthy quiz of all meta specs, traits, rotations, gear, etc. for every class (you’ve got to have it all memorized); and/or 2) running those meta builds in a variety of dungeons to show the optimal ways each should be played in each dungeon (not every path, just the ones people do more frequently: CoF 1/2, all AC, all CoE, SE 1/3, TA up&fwd, CM 3, HotW 1, Arah 2/3.)

As to who would do it? Unless someone comes up with a better idea, I’d have the rT and SC guys do it for the EU servers, and the DnT and LOD guys do it for the NA servers. Assuming they’d volunteer (I dunno, they might be busy). They could view it as a recruitment opportunity.

If it turns out that d/f is actually better, I will add the build to the guide and add something to the opening disclaimer until I’ve gotten the addition ready.

I calculated actual DPS for some of my LH builds, but ran out of time before I could get to all of them or the d/f build. Other ingame things took priority; I had to get a new TeamSpeak channel for the guild, scrounge up over a thousand gold for influence for guild upgrades, and fit in not only my nightly 4 hours of dungeons (which sometimes aren’t as smooth as the other group’s because I take the trial members with me), but also Lupi mentoring for someone who got my name off the Dungeon Mentors thread/guild. I was unusually busy, and did not plan out everything as well as I normally do.

As I view it, since you’re the only one who’s provided data, that data is correct until proven wrong. You can be sure that I will get around to providing my own data soon. I can’t just leave you unchallenged, can I?

Didn’t you get the memo?

We are the Elitists. You shall be assimilated. Resistance is futile

Chris RJ.1843:

I like seeing fire fields blasted without a ‘retaliation’ trolling across my screen.

You are so right. I get so ridiculously angry when a pug guard uses Symbol of Wrath or Symbol of Swiftness or (omg, this is just too horrible to contemplate) a hammer just before I blast on my Ele. I see 6x area Retal in quick succession and think “All is Vain.”

FAQ

I have multiple classes. Can I trial with only one class?

Yes. A class icon will be assigned to your name in TeamSpeak for whichever toons you have that DO fullfill the gear/wep/consumable requirements. You are only allowed to do dungeons with classes for which you have TeamSpeak icons. For your trial, you must have one of the following classes (all with proper gear/weps/consumables):
1) An Ele, or
2) A Thief, or
3) A Warrior, or
4) A Mes, Guard, AND Ranger

Do I need to buy ALL the aforementioned weapons and ALL the consumables for my class BEFORE I do my trial?

Yes. You will not be given a trial or guild invite until you have all the required weapons and consumables. I will not allow you to do any dungeons with us until you fully meet these prerequisites.

But all those weapons and sigils are expensive!

I don’t care. I make 40-50g per dungeon tour. You will too. Therefore, buying the proper equipment is a good investment.

Contact Info

PM me in-game for an interview, to ensure you meet the prerequisites. If you do, we’ll schedule a trial tour.

If I’m not logged in, mail or PM myself or Liahm (Ariete The Phoenix.8276).

UPDATE: I cannot play regularly until ~September. Therefore, [DD] is currently inactive. We are not recruiting at the moment, nor are we doing regularly scheduled dungeon tours. Prospective applicants should check back in September.

UPDATE: In September I will be enforcing increased rep’ing requirements and cleansing the roster of inactive members. This is intended to make /guild chat useful and to allow dungeon-groups to form at times other than just reset.

What is [DD]?

Daily Dungeons [DD] is based on BG. However, most of our members are on other NA servers. We are a fully upgraded guild with all guild missions.

Our purpose is to speedrun the easier/shorter dungeon paths once per day. Most of our dungeon groups start at server reset, plus or minus half an hour. Each group does the following paths, in no particular order: CoF 1/2, all AC, SE 1/3, all CoE, TA up/fwd, CM 1/3, HotW 1, Arah 2/3. It usually takes 4 hours to finish those 17 paths.

Requirements for [DD]

Our dungeon tours finish quickly because our members maximize group DPS. Exotic zerk trinkets, weapons, and armor with Scholars is the minimum gear requirement, although ascended zerk is preferred.

Our group comp is usually:
- 3 ele, 1 war, 1 thief: all AC, all CoE
- 2 ele, 1 war, 1 thief, 1 guard: TA up/fwd, CM 1/3, HotW 1, SE 1/3
- 2 ele, 1 war, 1 thief, 1 mes: Arah 2/3, CoF 1/2

There is always:
- 1 LH Ele (2/5/2/5/0, s/x),
- 1 Staff Ele (6/4/2/2/0),
- 1 Thief (6/6/0/0/2, d/d + sw/p),
- 1 War (4/6/0/4/0, sw/horn + [either GS or axe/mace]), and
- 1 other.

Depending on the dungeon, that “other” is one of the following:
- LH Ele (5/2/2/5/0, s/x),
- Guard (4/5/0/0/5, sw/f + GS),
- Mes (6/6/0/0/2, 6/2/0/4/2, sw/f + OH sw), or
- Ranger (6/5/0/3/0, sw/horn, feline pet).

Applicants must trial with one of these classes/builds. That means no Necros or Engis, and no builds other than those specified above.

All applicants and members must have appropriate weapons on every toon, which are as follows:
- Ele (7 weps): Scepter of Night, Scepter of Accuracy, Scepter of Undead, Dagger of Force, Focus of Force, Staff of Night/Force, Staff of Accuracy/Force
- Guard (6 weps): Sword of Night, Sword of Accuracy, Focus of Force, GS of Night/Force, GS of Accuracy/Force, Staff of Bloodlust/Force
- Mes (5 weps): Sword of Night, Sword of Undead, Sword of Force, Sword of Perception, Focus of Force
- Ranger (5 weps): Sword of Night, Horn of Force, Axe of Bloodlust, Dagger of Force, Dagger of Bloodlust
- Thief (7 weps): Dagger of Night, Dagger of Accuracy, Dagger of Undead, Dagger of Force, Sword of Bloodlust, Pistol of Force, Short Bow of Bloodlust/Force
- War (7 weps): Axe of Night, Axe of Accuracy, Axe of Undead, Mace of Force, Horn of Bloodlust, GS of Night/Force, GS of Accuracy/Force

All applicants and members must have appropriate consumables on every toon, which are as follows:
- Plates of Steak and Asparagus (all dungeons)
- Hardened Sharpening Stones (AC & CoE)
- Powerful Potion of Dredge Slaying (SE 3)
- Powerful Potion of Flame Legion Slaying (CoF 1/2)
- Powerful Potion of Inquest Slaying (SE 1)
- Powerful Potion of Nightmare Court Slaying (TA up/fwd)
- Powerful Potion of Outlaw Slaying (CM 1/3)
- Powerful Potion of Sons of Svanir Slaying (HotW 1)
- Powerful Potion of Undead Slaying (Arah 2/3)

TeamSpeak is required. Having a mic is optional. Being able to listen to whoever is coordinating the tour for your particular dungeon group is what’s important.

Interviews and trials are conducted by either myself or Liahm. Once we’ve interviewed you to ensure you’ve met the prerequisites above, we’ll send you an invite and you’ll appear as Initiate rank. There is a trial system to become a Member; you must complete a full dungeon tour with either myself or Liahm, so we can ensure first-hand that you know our strategies for the paths we do daily.

If it turns out you don’t know a particular path well enough to pass that part of the trial, you will stay at Initiate rank until you are ready for a retrial.

I can open up a guild slot. Send me an invite tonight plz, Iris. You’re maintaining this thread, so I think it would make the most sense if you maintained this new mentor/mentoree (is that even a word?) guild as well.

Thanks Lilith. I wasn’t going to start officially advertising it until we were at 50 members rather than almost 30, and until I had “built” all of those time-gated guild upgrades (timegates? seriously?). But Iris spilled the beans. Ah well, no harm done. I’ll just have to spend some late nights working on a website/official forum recruitment page/etc. to get it all up ASAP.

Yeah, I ought to make a post about [DD] in the Guild Recruitment section soon. It’s got an interesting back-story; here it is.

The guild I was in previously marketed itself as “elite,” but it lost a lot of its pro players to other guilds, and it also lost the “zerk-meta build-speedrun mentality” it had originally. It’s difficult to determine which was the cause of which; did it’s pro players leave because of the change in mentality, or did the mentality change because its pro players left? Probably a little of both. Regardless, the end result was that the guild effectively “went casual.” There weren’t enough members to support a 3-hour dungeon tour of 14-16 paths every night, so I ended up pug’ing a lot.

What I found was that there are a great many pugs who run zerk gear and something close to a meta spec, but who aren’t in dungeon guilds. Instead, they’re in PvP or WvW or RP or casual PvX guilds. Some of them liked their current guilds and just wanted to be part of a group with other zerk meta players for dungeons, then go back to PvP/WvW with their current guilds. Some of them wanted a pro dungeon guild they could rep full-time, but for some reason didn’t want to apply for [LOD] or [DnT], the two big NA elite PvE guilds. Some of them were a little noobish, but were amenable to suggestions on improving their performance. What they all had in common was the goal of fast dungeon runs and a dislike of pug’ing, and many of them also had a healthy hatred of bearbow rangers and staff AA spamming guards.

For the past few months, I’d just been adding these zerk pugs I met to my friends list. They’d added me too, and I was getting frequent /whispers asking to do dungeons. My friends list became too big to manage. So, a few days ago, I created a guild. I’ve personally played with every member on the roster, and can guarantee that every one of them is running the meta spec for his/her class, which includes zerk or assassins with either scholars or rubies. They all have double-stacking weps and the right dungeon potions/food. They all know optimal speedclear strategies for every dungeon except Arah (I’m still working with some of them on that. There are only a few of us in the guild who can solo Lupi).

We do 14-16 paths per night, starting the first dungeon 15 mins before reset and finishing it just after. The tour usually takes a little over 3 hours (unless we’ve got a new member who I’m talking through each encounter on TeamSpeak, in which case it takes closer to 4). As of yesterday, we now have a definite 2 groups running dungeons at reset; possibly a third once I trial a few new members. The only rep requirement is that you must rep the guild when you do dungeons with other guildies at reset.

PM me on the forum or ingame if you’re interested.

Using the dungeon forum as an LFG tool? Now that’s just blatantly a bug.

#ModHowYouWant

Aetherblade path is definitely a chore. Until you get one of the wep skins that sells for over a hundred gold, then it was all worth it. But that hardly ever happens.

AC p2’s boss fight is easy. Float/pull 3x oozes to a single machine, pull the boss, avoid his AoE until he becomes attackable, then kill him in under 10 secs. Not much to it.

J Eberle.9312:

In this community, I will never know if srs T_T

QFT

I’m sure I shouldn’t be “feeding the troll,” so to speak, and I’m sure everyone already knows this standard response to posts similar to Patrikan’s, but I feel obligated to say it again anyway.

It’s not a question of “viable”; it’s a question of optimal. It’s a matter of speed. Can you complete a fractal/dungeon with PVT? Of course. Will you complete it quickly? Definitely not.

It seems deSade feels the same way. If we were to finally convince everyone to take logic to heart (no, reflecting is not an exploit, etc), then we wouldn’t get a chance to post sarcastic comments, and what fun would that be? And if we finally got Anet to see things our way, then kitten, we wouldn’t even be able to make fun of them anymore!

If all the “ignorance and misconception” disappeared from the dungeon forum, I’d be awfully bored; I’d have to stop posting sarcastic comments to mock ridiculous viewpoints. (Reading is OP. Stacking is an exploit. Reflecting is an exploit. Dodging is an exploit. Dungeon selling has nothing to do with supply and demand. Etc.)

Zelyhn.8069:

As a matter of fact, Keys and I are both working with DPS calculators.
Here is mine:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B88y8fHnpBfZRnJRdVNqVC1MYXc&usp=sharing

DE has not posted DPS and/or EP calcs for each build in her guide. I just checked.

You only just posted your DPS comparison now, so I will need time to check it. I didn’t realize I needed DPS calcs for each of my builds (I thought EP was good enough), but since it seems you require them for better comparisons, I will create DPS calcs for each of my builds. I will get to it this weekend.

Hold off on your “D/F wins by at least 7%” until I’ve actually checked it. It could be correct (that’s a possibility), but I doubt it is.

The short answer is: 25/30/15/0/0 for CM and Arah (and TA if you use stealth method instead of a guard) when you need the extra stealth, and 25/30/0/0/15 for the other dungeons (although you shouldnt play thief in those other dungeons anyway, since you’d help your group more by relogging to another class). Both builds use d/d for single target and s/p for trash, and sb for stacking stealth.

Iris Ng.9845:

• In HotW, the last boss requires you to kite him and stay at least in max melee range so as not to get oneshot by his whirling defense attack. I’d rather use staff for a bit of CC.

4x FGS = instant half health for that boss. …. just remember to destroy Retal totem first. lol

I already went through my EP calcs with Dub and a few others. The only 2 things that could still be wrong are the approximation of BttH as a 5% modifier and the assumption of 25 vuln. DE was using 5% for BttH, so I might as well approximate it that way too. As for the 25 vuln, I agree it’s unrealistic to have it for more than the first few secs of an engagement via OMM, but that’s usually all you need. There could still be an issue with how Vuln is applied (I’m not entirely sure it should be factored into EP, rather than at the end with armor), but Nike and DE were calculating it this way and they were sure it was correct, and I don’t care enough to test it myself. In regard to Vuln, as long as there is a standard method of calculation, it matters very little what that method is.

guanlongwucaii.3162:

6s is pretty bad and I’m pretty sure a warrior can easily outdo that. frenzy rush-hb-whirl should finish it. of course none can compare to eles/thieves, though I’ve never seen eles instakill like thieves can

I Fiery Rush it. Insta-kill.

It helps that I started to stack power like crazy instead of trying to balance with prec, in preparation for the crit dmg nerf.

The meta is 25/30/0/0/15. But my thief is in 25/30/15/0/0, and the 2 people who sometimes thief for me during my daily tours are also in that spec. There are 2 reasons for this:

1) Regain of 2x init via Infusion of Shadow each time you use dagger 5. You’re using that very frequently in your single-target rotation of dagger 5 > backstab > 1x AA chain, repeat, then spamming heartseeker once boss is below 25% health. The 2x init regain per rotation will allow you to maintain enough init to spam heartseeker at the end; if you use the conventional 25/30/0/0/15, you will run out of init and not be able to use heartseeker.

2) Longer stealth via the 15 minor in the 3rd trait line. You’re only ever going to bring a thief to CM and Arah (when you actually need stealth), so in those dungeons, the extra stealth is very helpful. For all the other dungeons, the thief in our group relogs to a different class.

@ Atrius: I thought Clara and the gang were already at 50, or pretty close to it? So why don’t you just do it with them? I mean, it can’t be THAT bad… at least, not 6 hours bad. lol

spoj, guang, you guys forget. Reading is OP. Plz nerf.

Guard meta is sw/f 10/30/0/5/25. Post-vigor-nerf, guards will probably use obal’s max-DPS build, which is slightly higher dmg. I can’t remember exactly what it is though (20/20…. something?)

Good idea. I’ve updated the original post and the image to show the boon duration and healing power swap.

Iris Ng.9845:

I get to aim DT now, but it’s easier with dagger OH than focus OH for fire field. Is it because of the cast time?

Yeah, it’s easier with dagger OH. It’s also easier for the wars to summon banners in RoF than in FW, and easier for the party to stomp in the larger field. That’s why I’ve been using dagger OH recently.

It’s not just hammer though. It’s also Symbol of Wrath and Symbol of Swiftness. I make it my mission to torment the noob who dares use either in combat.

Why am I against using it at all? Because I am giving PERMANENT blasts via LH, and the 2nd Ele or the guard should be keeping up fire fields for me. Using a light field AT ANY TIME messes things up.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Anyway, staff on my guard is only used for TA blooms, usually switch to hammer after. I’m not a huge fan of sword/x but when the occasion is there, I suppose it’s better than mace.

Gahd, Lilith! You’re killing me. Hammer guard = regular, frequent light fields = my might combo causing 6x Area Retal = my worst nightmare. Even using the words “hammer” and “guard” in the same sentence makes me feel like crying in a corner and punching someone at the same time.

Ranger definitely can be a part of speed clears. we’ve been running one recently, and hes been doing quite well. necros on the other hand are useless. all you really need is a war with Fear Me! and you’re set. in most cases, you dont even need a mes with focus or a guard with binding blade because fear me works so well.

as for guards, im very anti-guard. I have a guard, I know a bunch of good guards, my own guard and theirs are all in meta, but I still hate guards. its mostly because of the light fields. but also because a war could be stackijg just as much vuln as an sw/f guard and be giving me better buffs. a mes could be doing the stab and reflects and cleanses instead. and because I have lingering memories of terrible pug guards with light fields and staff and clerics and stacking healing power and all that other noob stuff that subconsciously make me hate all guards, even my own and the other good ones.

Im pretty sure its because few players visit the forum, and many who do have identified the dungeon forum as a “dangerous place” we really could be nicer. lol

that said, ive gotten 6 people who found my contact info on this thread, and ive steered some pugs to the thread as well. so it has done some good

With the upcoming addition of the Ferocity stat, Anet will have to change the stat display section of the Equipment tab in the “H” menu. This is a perfect opportunity to streamline the Stat Display. My suggestions for how to do this are as follows:

1) Eliminate the “Attack” stat. The formula for it is: Attack = Power + Average Wep Strength. However, it is entirely useless because you don’t add Power and Wep Strength when calculating Effective Power (EP); you multiply them. All this stat does is confuse people. Please remove it.

2) Add the “Ferocity” stat. Anet can use the old icon for the “Attack” stat if that’ll be easier than making a new icon.

3) Rearrange the stat menu so the offensive stats are at the top, the defensive stats are at the bottom, and all the percentage stats are on the right. The order for the new Stat Menu would be as follows:

Power ………… – f1-4 CD
Precision …….. – Crit Chance
Ferocity ……… – Crit Dmg
Condi Dmg ….. – Condi Duration
Toughness ……. – Armor
Vitality ……….. – Health
Healing Power . – Boon Duration
Agony Resist … – Magic Find

The following image (attached) compares the current stat display with how the future one would look if Anet made these changes.