Guild Wars 2

FrostDraco.8306:

Vinceman.4572:

Raids weren’t meant to be pugged.

Pure conjecture.

Dev statements leading up to raid release seemed to support his comment.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

i think people are forgetting what the average game player looks like, i.e over 35 with 10 years + gaming experience. Dark souls is considered difficult, or perhaps civ 4 god mode, or super meat boy, but HOT?

There is a lot of confusion where people are trying to pass ofg subjective opinion as objective fact, i.e:

I find Hot maps frustrating is subjective.
I think hot maps are like a platform game because you jomp on mushrooms – subjective.

versus

only 5% of the game population has killed the last boss in Hot, but 90% have tried – there is a problem with the boss fight design. Objective.
The mobs in HOT can one shot you regardless of your defensive abilities therefore it is poorly balanced. Objective.

If players are not provided objective statistics, such as you mention, they cannot comment on them.

An opinion that one shot mechanics indicate poor balance is subjective, not objective.

Exactly so, so there is 0 point in trying to pass off subjective opinion as objective fact.

No, if the average health pool is X, and a mob can exceed that with 1 hit despite the defensive actions of the player than that is in fact objective fact.

It is an objective fact that the mob can one hit the character, it is subjective that such is poor balance.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

I believe that part of the dissatisfaction with HoT was how poorly the core game prepared people for the increased difficulty.

(Some) Players didnt learn game mechanics because, simply put, they didnt really need to. If the game allowed you to complete events, etc, without doing more than pressing the 1 and 6 keys, and sometimes not doing even that much, then why do more?

I enjoyed the difficulty increase precisely because it rewarded actually paying attention, target prioritization, and knowing my class. But I had learned to play my character in spite of the core game telling me not to bother. Not to put in the effort.

This has been my argument all along. The core game didn’t prepare people, but the living story did. Both Living Story Seasons 1 and 2 did prepare people for harder content. If you did the marionette, the battle for lion’s arch, escape from lion’s arch, the nightmare tower, and many of the battles in season 2 (and particularly the achievements), you’d have gotten a lot better.

I did all that stuff, thus I was prepared for HOT. The jump from Orr to HOT without living story is vast. The jump from the Living Story Season 2 really isn’t.

The early stages of LS1 were so offputting that I took a break from the game. Came close to uninstalling.

But temporary events that werent available for everyone to experience shouldnt be counted on as training content for an expansion that came a couple of years later IMO.

Silverwastes was better for this IMO.

But Living Story Season 2 is not temporary content. It’s part of the content. The problem is not everyone got it free. Whether you missed Season 1 or not, you’re choosing not to play Season 2 if you don’t buy it.

It’s not just that you’re missing story which you can watch on youtube. You’re missing learning to play the game as it involves. And that’s a problem.

I think that S2 could have been marketed better for people who didnt necessarily even know it existed. If the company was counting on it to train people for HoT they needed to be more aggressive with it.

Have you considered finding a raid guild that is active when you want to play?

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

I believe that part of the dissatisfaction with HoT was how poorly the core game prepared people for the increased difficulty.

(Some) Players didnt learn game mechanics because, simply put, they didnt really need to. If the game allowed you to complete events, etc, without doing more than pressing the 1 and 6 keys, and sometimes not doing even that much, then why do more?

I enjoyed the difficulty increase precisely because it rewarded actually paying attention, target prioritization, and knowing my class. But I had learned to play my character in spite of the core game telling me not to bother. Not to put in the effort.

This has been my argument all along. The core game didn’t prepare people, but the living story did. Both Living Story Seasons 1 and 2 did prepare people for harder content. If you did the marionette, the battle for lion’s arch, escape from lion’s arch, the nightmare tower, and many of the battles in season 2 (and particularly the achievements), you’d have gotten a lot better.

I did all that stuff, thus I was prepared for HOT. The jump from Orr to HOT without living story is vast. The jump from the Living Story Season 2 really isn’t.

The early stages of LS1 were so offputting that I took a break from the game. Came close to uninstalling.

But temporary events that werent available for everyone to experience shouldnt be counted on as training content for an expansion that came a couple of years later IMO.

Silverwastes was better for this IMO.

vesica tempestas.1563:

i think people are forgetting what the average game player looks like, i.e over 35 with 10 years + gaming experience. Dark souls is considered difficult, or perhaps civ 4 god mode, or super meat boy, but HOT?

There is a lot of confusion where people are trying to pass ofg subjective opinion as objective fact, i.e:

I find Hot maps frustrating is subjective.
I think hot maps are like a platform game because you jomp on mushrooms – subjective.

versus

only 5% of the game population has killed the last boss in Hot, but 90% have tried – there is a problem with the boss fight design. Objective.
The mobs in HOT can one shot you regardless of your defensive abilities therefore it is poorly balanced. Objective.

If players are not provided objective statistics, such as you mention, they cannot comment on them.

An opinion that one shot mechanics indicate poor balance is subjective, not objective.

I believe that part of the dissatisfaction with HoT was how poorly the core game prepared people for the increased difficulty.

(Some) Players didnt learn game mechanics because, simply put, they didnt really need to. If the game allowed you to complete events, etc, without doing more than pressing the 1 and 6 keys, and sometimes not doing even that much, then why do more?

I enjoyed the difficulty increase precisely because it rewarded actually paying attention, target prioritization, and knowing my class. But I had learned to play my character in spite of the core game telling me not to bother. Not to put in the effort.

Kyrus.7218:

Yes, he’s being whiny and destructive. No, we don’t like the direction his behavior is going. But y’know what? We aren’t supposed to. When a protagonist does things you don’t like, that’s an arc in the making, perhaps a fall from grace and subsequent redemption. That’s classic character development. It creates tension, and tension creates emotional investment, and emotional investment creates good stories. Braham might end up being the best thing to happen to this crapshoot of a story so far. Gods know none of the other supporting cast have anything going for them right now. Will he throw a tantrum if Jormag goes silent? Will he amass an army and cause more needless death? I don’t know about you, but I’m excited to find out!

Im not sure that its good for the story for (some) players to hope they never see the character again, and to prefer to forget he ever existed.

Glad you are enjoying him though.

If by elaborate you mean gaudy, then no they dont.

Amaimon.7823:

Nereikia.3507:

Warcry.1596:

Why not just set up auto pay for $10/month and get 800 gems monthly? Same thing as to what you’re saying =/

But no! It’s not the same thing. In ‘ptp games’ (two healthy examples are WoW and FFxiv) you get a rewarding content for your 9-12 euros/dollars per month. And in GW2 you’ll get almost nothing. Not to mention that almost all in-game activities in GW2 are absurdly unrewarding for now. Anet makes more and more pay walls and time gates to encourage players to buy gems with real money (don’t get me wrong pls, i understand how FtP works, and i’m fine with that), but it doesn’t seem that many gw2players are very enthusiastic about this design at the present time (inc. myself: i’ve got an active subscription in ffxiv now, but i won’t buy gems in gw2, i think they’re overpriced, and you can feel free to call me cheap, i don’t mind, dear).
Long story short, you can buy an outfit or convert your 800 gems for some gold (what cool stuff can you actually buy from TP for that amount of gold? it’s a rethorical question), but if you compare that to the rewards you can get in a ptp-game after a month of playtime, you’ll see the difference. And it’s huge. o/

P.S. Only wanted to mention that $10 can have a different value in another business model.
I’m sorry for my english.

Quite the opposite
I paid for expansion AND a subscription in WoW, but the expansions felt so dead and empty. Every event was a copy-paste, really, raids and the last 3-4 story missions were all the reason to play WoW. 95% of the content is dead weight.
And in gw2 you get almost nothing? What? have you not been paying attention, you get for free: Raids, Living Story, Current Events, and in the last case, we got 5 maps, and a 6th map coming, for free

If you have to pay to have access to these, they are not really free.

I wouldnt say that the expansion ruined the game, but its implementation did lessen the overall game experience for me. Again, for me.

zealex.9410:

Vinceman.4572:

Feanor.2358:

I was speaking mostly about the serious FotM players. Of course, not all of them raid. But I’m certain they could, if they tried.

100% true!

What was this guy’s point? On what subject? To lazy to find the starting point of the discussion xD

Seems pretty solid that he was speaking mostly about serious Fractals of the Mists players. He seems to think that, of course, not all of them raid, but that they could if they tried.

…better be careful, I think he means it.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Djinn.9245:

If 5 people can kill them, that isn’t very “legendary”.

And I think they must be too weak because when one pops I can’t get to it before it’s dead even if I drop what I’m doing and go straight there and it’s only in the next fort over (not 1/2 map away or anything).

Now, that’s a much more legitimate complaint; perhaps they would benefit from raising their starting HP to reduce the risk that they die before players get in position and trigger them to scale up.

(Though I’d prefer to see it still possible for five players to kill it, or even one fairly patient player, just to avoid them being unkillable content when the map is less busy. Assuming that ever happens, since SW seems to be pretty robustly persistent…)

Pretty much this. Enough baseline health to make it a real effort for a handful of players so that it survives long enough for other players to move in to help, but not so much that its an insurmountable obstacle for that handful if they are dedicated.

The devs seem to believe that gw1 characters were the more powerful. They specifically chose to change character building and design systems for gw2 in order to prevent what was possible in building characters in gw1.

More useful, sure, but I hated the growth progression for pets in gw1.

Ashen.2907:

One could argue that choosing to play the game as intended should not be justification for being excluded from a tier of armor with associated functionality.

Feanor.2358:

Now that’s just hilarious.

I tend to agree.

Feanor.2358:

Not playing some part of the game is intended?

According to the devs, yes. They designed the content with the intention that most players would not play it.

Feanor.2358:

Please explain to me why they created this content then? It’s neither easy nor cheap.

Do you really need the requested explanation?

Well, OK then…

Because the developers believed that the content would entertain, and retain, some fraction of the player base.

In other words, pretty much the same reason that they create any other content. The difference is that, although they know that no piece of content will please every player, they went into this content with the intention that this content please only a small portion of the player base.

Personally I supported then (during the CDI) and now the idea of raids. I am particularly supportive of the taken approach to their development.

My only concern is the apparent intention to not provide legendary armor for other game modes. I fully supported the idea that the new hot content type get the new hot armor tier first. I am less pleased by the idea that only raiders will have access to that armor tier.

Zackie.8923:

Heibi.4251:

Zackie.8923:

Can we have an option to salvage all below rare when we right click the salvage kit? like instead of masterwork and below, we have rare and below.

This already exists in the game. I use it everyday. Right click – you get several choices. Maybe it’s the kit you’re using. I use the copper fed salvag’o’matic.

i use copper fed too, there is only salvage magic and below, salvage masterwork and below, and salvage rare only.

i would like to have a salvage ALL rares and below.

You might want to edit the thread title. It says, “all below rare,” not all rare and below.

The current functionality of salvaging already matches your title request.

Arden.7480:

“Deus ex machina” means the unsolvable problem who suddenly is solved by situation, person etc.

Appearing of Balthazar was not “Deus ex machina” in the meaning of this term. (from wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina). Balthazar didn’t resolve any problem, he just appeared and stole Taimi’s Machine.

Stop using the term if you don’t know the meaning. More ancient greek culture would heal your brain from idiocies.

The ancient Greeks had their own, “idiocies.”

…and the poster you quoted was not referring to Balthazar resolving problems.

Please no.

Content for a handful of characters is fine.

Crinn.7864:

Astralporing.1957:

Actually, yes, we can ignore it if we want. Because game is giving us a choice.

It also gives you a choice to do raids, which you have made the choice not to do so.

To be fair, ANet specifically stated that they intended for most players to not raid.

One could argue that choosing to play the game as intended should not be justification for being excluded from a tier of armor with associated functionality.

Vayne.8563:

Feanor.2358:

The point stays. If the approach makes some players discover new content they enjoy, it’s good for the game and it makes it better. That it didn’t work for you is unfortunate, but doesn’t make it objectively bad.

If you can’t see the difference between locking a single reward type, between a single type of content, or encouraging people to try content, I’m not sure what to tell you. There are many ways to encourage people to try content. This reward encourages me to not play as much, and over time, maybe not at all. I’m not sure why anyone would defend that.

The thing to remember is that he is not defending you being encouraged to play less any more than your support of HoT maps is not a defense of me being encouraged to play less.

He honestly, it seems, believes that rewards can be used to encourage players to discover content that they didnt even know they would enjoy. Im sure that it doez for some people even as I am sure that it has the oppozite effect on others. Im imagine that he believes that more people will be affected positively than negatively.

Personally, I am not fond of the idea of an entire tier of armor, with unique functionality, being gated in this fashion. A title, aura, even a skin…sure (although I prefer the non skin options). I think that weapons would make the best special rewards because they are so much easier to produce.

I did not care for the addition of heroes in gw1. Not really sure that I would like them any more here.

All professions are solid during the leveling process, ranger more so than some. Easy access to a speed buff, a pet to take aggro for you, decent ranged damage…all in all good surviveability and reasonable damage in open world content.

Play changes dramatically in instanced endgame content.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Blude.6812:

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

but for how long who knows till the new pack comes out with mounts and so forth .

Out of curiosity, who at ANET gave you that fact?

That would be Mike O’Brien when he acknowledged the veracity of the leaks.

Good luck.

Really? Any links?

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve raided enough, several hours now, to know that I don’t enjoy it.

If I enjoyed it, this conversation wouldn’t be happening.

To be fair, we both know people who hated dungeons and enjoy them now, because someone like you helped them learn the mechanics. That’s even more true for fractals, including T4s.

So perhaps this is the rare case where you don’t enjoy certain content, because (for a change), you’re the one who would benefit by being shown the ropes.

Regardless, the OP in the thread asked about true gear progression, not about fashion or functionality. And, however we feel about raids or about legendary armor or about l-armor being tied to raids, I hope we can all agree that it’s not part of what the OP means by “gear progression.”

Interesting point. I wonder if some of the people bringing hate of raiding from other games, allowing gw2 to inherit other games’ baggage, would have their minds changed if taken in by a raiding group and shown the ropes.

I dont mean one of the “training runs” where one or two knowledgeable raiders tries to run herd on a group of 8 or 9 novices, but rather an organized group opening up a spot or two for learners and taking it slow enough to really explain things along the way.

RoseofGilead.8907:

Yeah, Anet said quite a while ago that their small group, instanced content is going to be Fractals. The old dungeons won’t be updated, and new dungeons likely won’t ever be a thing.

I think my favorite dungeon is Honor of the Waves, largely because I like the Kodan and actually enjoy underwater combat. Story-wise, Arah is my favorite.

Yeah, HotW is my fave as well.

Palador.2170:

Now, with all that said… Can we please ditch everyone but Taimi and the two charr, and rebuild from that? Please? With the current crew, Dragon’s Watch feels less like a guild, and more like an extended escort mission.

I hate to say it, but I agree. And that is saying a lot for someone who detests asurans and dislikes charr… Taimi and the two charr are just more enjoyable…ack, cant say it without choking….ack, ack…characters than…ack…heave…ack….flipping wesley crusher and worf wannabes…ack…the others.

I’d really love to see spears, for land use, back in action. I prefer melee, but even thrown was cool.

AliamRationem.5172:

The fact that these maps also provide an inexpensive path to ascended pieces that can be easily solo farmed makes them more attractive than most maps. The karma, experience, and unbound magic farm only enhances their appeal. I imagine many players will find them worth the price.

Yeah, 55 gold (as mentioned by Phys) for access to a zone that allows me to get ascended backpack or trinkets? Would be worth it to me.

Astralporing.1957:

Dindin.2378:

I totally understand you coming from MMORPG’s where being the most powerful was the most important goal.

You can. This kind of “progression” does exist here. It’s just skill based, not gear based. In order to become more powerful, you need to become more skilled at the game. There’s no shortcut of just getting a better gear and pretending that it somehow made you a better player.

This.

Higher and higher tiers of gear that allow you to do astronomical amounts of damage to old foes in order to create the illusion of being more powerful while maintaining the status quo in new content, rather than learning to play better is the antithesis of the gw franchise.

TheNecrosanct.4028:

Astralporing.1957:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

Right up until they released the legendary backpacks, the only way to get the only legendary items in the game (weapons) required you to do PvE. So if you have a problem with doing PvE to obtain legendaries, you’ve been having that problem since the launch of this game. And I think it’s reasonable to assume that anyone interested in legendary armor is also interested in, or already obtained, at least one legendary weapon.

It’s however not reasonable to assume that anyone interested in legendary armor is interested in raiding. In some cases it’s certainly true, but in many cases it’s definitely not.

TheNecrosanct.4028:

If you’re talking solely about legendary armor, it was never meant to be a core feature of the game. It was created as a special reward for Raids, to give people something special for taking on the challenge.

Maybe if you’re talking about this specific set of armor, but in general, we’ve heard suggestions about legendary armor long before raids (or HoT) were even in a picture.

TheNecrosanct.4028:

There are plenty of items in this game you can only obtain one way, yet a lot of people suddenly seem to have a problem with that when it concerns legendary armor.

Have you ever thought that maybe it’s because a legendary armor (the only one in the game) is a really poor choice for such a side content-limited item?

In response to your first point: yes, I realize that not everyone interested in legendary armor might be interested in Raids. However, that is not an argument to introduce alternative means to get the set. I like the sPvP legendary back item skin, but I don’t like sPvP (haven’t played it since before the release of HoT). So I accept that I won’t likely ever get that skin, and I’m fine with it. And don’t come back with the possibility to get another legendary back item from Fractals, because I truly don’t like that skin. And since a legendary back item is no better stat-wise than an ascended back item, there is no need to get it just for a skin I find undesirable.

Yes, ANet may have talked about legendary armor long before HoT or Raids were introduced, but that has no bearing on the acquisition method. Have they ever hinted at making it available through “regular” content, like legendary weapons? I fully accept that legendary armor is a special reward for special content. It’s a prestige item and you don’t get prestige by doing something anyone can or will do. So no, I don’t agree it’s a bad decision to make something like legendary armor available only through Raids. I fully accept that there are things in this game not everyone will get because they don’t like the content they have to do for it. That’s the nature of MMO’s. There’s something for everyone, but not everything is for everyone. GW2 sets itself apart from other MMO’s in many ways, but that doesn’t mean they have to make that principle a universal thing throughout the game.

There is a difference between a skin and an entire tier of armor and the functionality unique to it.

My points of disconnect with the gw2 tech level is more about anachronism. Bows as a weapon of war in a setting where assault rifles, machine pistols, flamethrowers, grenades and so on not only exist but are commonplace.

Add in attack helicopters, combat drones, submarine wolfpacks, autocannon, etc and it feels a bit out of place to be drawing a sword and yelling charge.

I am not opposed to an mmo with a fantastical setting including bizarre nonhuman races, magic and advanced technology, and so on, but…the decision to put sharpened pieces of kittenock, or metal in competition with machine pistols and assault rifles is a bit off IMO.

Feanor.2358:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I’m only interested in freeing inventory space and having access to easy rune swapping.

That’s the general motto behind the complaints. But I’m not buying it. Not at this scale. The armor is too expensive, and rune-swapping is done extremely rarely. Just because you can stat-swap it doesn’t mean you do. Swap to what, exactly? I already run the optimal runes. If it’s about practicality, then the legendary armor is just not worth it. Sure, there might be people who genuinely care about that. But they’d be the minority. The rest might very well think that’s what they care about. However, what they really care about is the exclusivity. They are seeing a new shiny in the game and they want it without the effort involved. Simple as that.

Because you don’t stat swap and because the armor is too expensive for you, you assume the same is true for everyone else?

Hey, Ive never been to Idaho….so it doesn’t exist. Right?

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

I still dont see how legendary armor can be measured as more than a convenience item for me. The skins are atrocious and there is no prestige in an item that can be purchased for real world money….particularly as the only visible indication of its nature would be functionally deleted.

Obviously some will lime the skins and will use them…but no (to me) prestige for something that can be purchased with real money and which is gated by time and grind.

Technically, pretty much anything can be bought with real-world money. Does it mean there’s no prestige to be had at all in this world? No. Regardless, it doesn’t make the item any more practical. I’m sure there are players which will use it as convenience item, and I’m also sure they are a very small minority. For the rest, it’s just vanity.

It does mean, in my opinion, that there is very little prestige to be had in gw2.

Yet there’s an awful lot of complaints about a prestige item.

Indeed there are complaints about locking a new tier of armor, with a brand new to the game functionality, behind one specific type of content.

Haishao.6851:

GW1 was 200 years in the past.

Earth looks like science fiction compared to 200 years ago too.

To be fair, gw1 had a tech level similar to somewhere between 11th century and 14th century europe. Two hundred years later europeans did not have helecopters, machineguns, tanks, autocannon, etc.

TexZero.7910:

Ashen.2907:

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

Do those modes currently have the rewards you’re looking for ?

Also, that horse has been beat to death. Most sane people don’t care if those modes eventually get their own Legendaries. That however does not require diminishing an existing modes content to satisfy those who refuse to utilize the current path to Legendary Armor.

I did not suggest diminishing an existing mode’s content.

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

I still dont see how legendary armor can be measured as more than a convenience item for me. The skins are atrocious and there is no prestige in an item that can be purchased for real world money….particularly as the only visible indication of its nature would be functionally deleted.

Obviously some will lime the skins and will use them…but no (to me) prestige for something that can be purchased with real money and which is gated by time and grind.

Technically, pretty much anything can be bought with real-world money. Does it mean there’s no prestige to be had at all in this world? No. Regardless, it doesn’t make the item any more practical. I’m sure there are players which will use it as convenience item, and I’m also sure they are a very small minority. For the rest, it’s just vanity.

It does mean, in my opinion, that there is very little prestige to be had in gw2.

imsoenthused.1634:

phys.7689:

point is different themed areas, different movement means

No, the point is artificially introducing a problem that the game already had a solution to in order to create a niche for the introduction of mounts which will undoubtedly be a massive cash shop success for them, at the cost of permanently losing part of the identity that makes Guild Wars 2 a Guild Wars game. Which they have every right to do, but don’t pretend they couldn’t have done the exact same thing with properly used waypoints and strategically places updrafts and ley lines. The only reason they aren’t is so that they can make mounts a desirable item and sell more gems.

Updrafts and leylines were not part of a gw game until they were introduced.

Its not what is implemented in game, its how, that determines whether or not it fits gw2.

Personally Im not interested in mounts, but the mario-esque bouncing mushrooms, and the gliders, and leylines, and so on are no more gw than mounts.

And you can bet that the cash shop implecations were a significant consideration for the decision to add gliders.

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Do they? Or are they just looking for a reason to justify their position? Not necessarily consciously, mind you.

Well, speaking just for myself, I do. I would love to have more space available and to have less hassle in playing around with different builds.

Speaking for myself, I thought the same, back when I did my first legendary. But in the end I’ve stat-selected it very rarely. In the long run, I’m definitely behind on money because of that, and it never really made any difference on space. In hindsight, I could have simply stat-swapped ascended weapons to the exact same effect, at a fraction of the price.

That’s the thing though – we seek reasons to justify our choices and our desires. We usually find something that sounds reasonable and stick with it. But very often it isn’t the actual reason behind the choice/desire in question.

Ask yourself, honesty – do you really think you’d use the functionality often enough to justify the much higher price of the legendary armor? And following, do you think everyone who’s vocal about the legendary armor would? I don’t.

Ashen.2907:

I fully supported the idea of raids getting the FIRST set, willing to wait to see when options were added for WvW or even, possibly, sPvP…but the idea that an entire tier’s functionality is gated in this manner, permanently? This is concerning to me.

That’s another thing. Adding a second set is perfectly fine by me (but it’s ultimately up to ANet).

In terms of price: Ive spent many thousands of gold on lesser things than making buildcrafting/switching (among my favorite aspects of the franchise) more convenient for me.

I still dont see how legendary armor can be measured as more than a convenience item for me. The skins are atrocious and there is no prestige in an item that can be purchased for real world money….particularly as the only visible indication of its nature would be functionally deleted.

Obviously some will lime the skins and will use them…but no (to me) prestige for something that can be purchased with real money and which is gated by time and grind.

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

actually 1v2-5 , and a roaming duo face to face with 20 man zerg is less challenging than a raid.
facing top spvp players and winning? thats might be harder, but its pretty difficult to determine.
What you are doing is like comparing hitting 100 three pointers in a row with beating some good basketball players, if you are the same height build health and have the same skills.
To be honest most people are more likely to beat the good basketball players.

Interesting take.

I would think that learning a scripted fight well enough to perform one’s specific role would be less difficult than the PvP comparison. I’ve won 1 v 5 in WvW, but have no illusions that I could take ten or more at once. And I know those five werent top tier players.

I would imagine that my TTL vs 5 to 10 top tier players in a coordinated team, would be measured in very few seconds. I expect that would be the case for even pretty skilled players experienced and successful in the game mode.

I dont expect that a raid team, experienced and successful in the game mode, experiencing a common, expected, every day encounter in a raid, while doing everything right, would die in seconds.

In WvW, or PvP, while doing everything right, the outcome is all but a foregone conclusion…you lose.

In any form of scripted encounter, doing everything right also generates a foregone conclusion…you win.

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

phys.7689:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

LezardValeth.9453:

i like more options, but why do we work for other options when they mean less?

I think we have to wait to use the new elites in the game before you can comment on this.

he means less options, not that the new elites will be worse.

X+1 > X

We will not have fewer options.

i never said we would, just clarifying what i think he means

My apologies. My post was meant to address his meaning, if it was as you surmised, not you personally. I should have been more clear.

Shockwave.1230:

phys.7689:

Shockwave.1230:

Hello Anet,

I have a simple to define issue I’d like to point out that is difficult for you to solve. The issue is quite simply that build optimization is tied way too heavily to the game’s economy.

To take you back to Guild Wars 1, you should recall that the game had loads of build craft that you could do. This was not tied heavily at all the game’s economy. Players mainly experienced build craft through exploring the game and experiencing content.

The beauty of this was the enjoyable cycle that it created. When players wanted to experience the game in a new way, by playing a new build, they would go do replay or do new content they haven’t done before in order to unlock the parts of their build they didn’t have. When a build got stale they would repeat the process. It was a cycle that promoted new experiences.

In Guild Wars 2, the problem of tying build craft so heavily to the economy is that obtaining new builds and optimizing them becomes about repetition/grind. You are incentivized to find the most efficient money farms available to you and repeat that.

This combined with the massive reduction in build craft available in Guild Wars 2 and the amount of grind for optimizing builds due to that low supply of available builds has been a real struggle for me. At this point I can only play PvE for story (and on alts), because I feel like I’m wasting my time if I try to do more in the game.

Obviously you have a long established economy that boils down to everything is tied to build optimization or cosmetics, so easing the pain of making build craft more readily available is probably a challenge that can’t be overcome anytime soon.

Ultimately I’m just hoping that you make a core tenant of your future development to be fostering a cycle of experiencing the game in new ways, even when it’s replaying prior experiences. I feel like Guild Wars 1 did this very well and Guild Wars 2 should be able to reach a similar mark, since it’s still you as the developer.

i understand your point, and you are right, but it will never happen here, this games design is heavily driven by the vision of how they want the economy to be, and they have basically made it clear that they want an extremely high level of economic investment for you to access build diversity.

this is why legendaries are the most expensive items, and new stat distibutions need more resources than old ones.

It’s definitely not a thing that can happen quickly. It will take a change to a core tenant of development. And I’m hoping they start to analyze how to make content replayable not for getting currency, but instead for getting pieces of new builds people can play to experience the game differently. Maybe the core problem I have is more along the lines of build diversity being so limited, but I also think build craft as it currently exists needs to be shifted.

I believe that phys is correct in assuming that it will never happen because I dont think that Anet wants more build crafting. They dont want to spend the resources on more frequent balance patches because more buildcrafting finds more efficient builds more frequently.

It saddens me. Buildcraft was one of my favorite aspects of gw1.

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

Feanor.2358:

Do they? Or are they just looking for a reason to justify their position? Not necessarily consciously, mind you.

Well, speaking just for myself, I do. I would love to have more space available and to have less hassle in playing around with different builds. I dont care about the skin of legendary armor, and would transmute it if I had it-so no one would ever be able to tell I had it.

I fully supported the idea of raids getting the FIRST set, willing to wait to see when options were added for WvW or even, possibly, sPvP…but the idea that an entire tier’s functionality is gated in this manner, permanently? This is concerning to me.

There is no prestige for me to be jealous of. This is something that can be purchased with real money. The fact that my job pays better or worse than someone else’s is not a matter of in game prestige.

Feanor.2358:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Like it has been told countless time, the comparison is simply not valid nor reasonable in the context. This is the only option in existence to get that tier of armor and they wont produce anymore.

Actually it is both reasonable and valid. There is no second Ad Infinitum as well. The Ascension is NOT the same item. Yes, they are both backpacks. Yes, they are both stat-selectable. But that’s not everything they are. Not even close.

By the way, the argument about stat-selection is what’s actually blown out of proportion. I very rarely stat-select my gear. It is simply too much of a hassle for half the desired effect, at best. Even with free rune-swapping, it is still something rarely done, as I’d need to also change my build, trinkets and whatnot.

People don’t really care about the functionality that much. They want the exclusivity and they deceive themselves because “functionality should be equal for all” is easier to accept than “I’m envious”.

An entire tier of armor is quite different from a variation in skin.

I am glad that stat switching means little to you. It saves you time, gold, and storage space. Others feel differently. I know that freeing up some inventory space, as I currently have several sets of armor for my main character and a couple each for my alts, would be nice.

Cyninja.2954:

insanemaniac.2456:

please, show me some reasonable calcs for your time factor. as far as im aware, we can make around 30-40g/hour in the best farm currently, and thats excluding playing the tp which has even better returns. so farming an armor set would take what 15 hours? compared to 12 weeks for 150 li? how many orders of magnitude difference is that again?

Yes and those 12 weeks are about 25 hours (let’s make it 30-40)worth of raids for most groups that do a full clear. Unless we add time for ineffciency in which case we could subtract some time from the gold per hour farm.

15 to 40 hours is what, 0 orders of magnitutde worth of playtime?
Now let’s look at how long it takes to get a legendary weapon and compare its stat advantage versus a full set of armor….

Not sure thats a fair comparison since the player controls the allocation of the 15 hours while the approximately 40 is dictated by hard time gates. In theory one could farm out the 15 hours in one day while the 40 would remain gated over a period of months.

phys.7689:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

LezardValeth.9453:

i like more options, but why do we work for other options when they mean less?

I think we have to wait to use the new elites in the game before you can comment on this.

he means less options, not that the new elites will be worse.

X+1 > X

We will not have fewer options.

boolah.1325:

If people want the PvP backpack, they have to play PvP. If people want the FOTM backpack they have to play FOTM.. You want the legenday armor? Play the raids.. it’s that bloody simple.

I’m sure ANET would have made legendary armor for all gamemodes but the fact is that it’s obviously not that simple to do otherwise they would have done so.

Please don’t kitten about LI because you don’t have them. I’m sure the PvPers and WvWers hated the fact that if they wanted a legendary weapon, they had to do world completion to get it. Now you need LI and if it’s too hard to get 150 then you simply don’t deserve the armor!

Anet owns the game and have decided that only people willing to raid, or to pay others to raid for them, deserve the armor. You are correct. But then, the company, in deciding that paying customer A is not as important as paying customer B, by making an entire tier of armor exclusive to player B, perhaps is no more entitled to player A’s money than player A is to access to legendary armor.

I would have preferred that raiders get access to a unique weapon skin than armor, because weapons are easier to produce. A title, cape, emote, or something would have been even better IMO. Unique name plate colors or badges even. But I was not really bothered by the idea that the first set of legendary armor would go to the newest classification of content that Anet felt the need to incentivize…but if raids will be the only means of accessing an entire tier of armor, that is something else.

Astralporing.1957:

Xstein.2187:

So, just under curiosity, if you only had the resources to create one set of legendary armor (It took them over a year and a half to come out with the first set) that was suppose to represent one of the pinnacle achievements in your game based on difficulty, time, and overall achievement level to aquire, and you knew this or knew due to the difficulties involved with the project that you could only handle one set, how would you go about it?

As you said, i’d use more than one game mode, but i’d not require heavy investment in any. So, gift of battle, some LI’s (but no requirement of killing all the bosses), gift of ascension (and some fractal motes perhaps, not the 100 cm one though), and something from spvp (not necessarily gift of skirmishing, perhaps the mist stone). The main collection would be open world though (with maybe some elements from other modes, but not very hard ones).

So, achievements in all game modes, but not mastery of all game modes. That one would have been guaranteed to kitten every player off.

DutchRiders.2871:

I take great pleasure in the fact that most players can’t get legendary armor.

Taking pleasure from the misery of others is not a good trait in my eyes, and is definitely the behaviour this game shouldn’t promote, as it is something that can only poison game community.

If not having access to a few pixels in a video game is all it takes to make someone experience misery, they live a pretty sheltered life.