Guild Wars 2

VOLKON.1290:

Ashen.2907:

VOLKON.1290:

you can click your target you know, yes?

Sometimes. You can’t always see your target.

He said the target was nearest to him and right in front of him, so I’m assuming he can see it based on that information.

Valid assumption. I was thinking purely in terms of those fights where you cannot see your foe through the FX spam. My apologies.

TwoBit.5903:

Are you sure you don’t have the wrong definition. If it’s item or privilege exclusive to real money spending then its pay for access, not P2W.

An item that is exclusively available through a real money transaction, and which provides an advantage over those who do not possess it, is an example of pay to win.

If an item does not provide the mentioned advantage it is not pay to win.

If an item does not require the expenditure of real money it is not pay to win.

VOLKON.1290:

you can click your target you know, yes?

Sometimes. You can’t always see your target.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Of course it is P2W. But no one will ever admit that. The “line” that can’t be crossed is just moved every time it is crossed. No one would play a P2W game because it is “wrong”. So everytime GW2 crosses the line into P2W people just conveniently move the line to something else.

No, actually this has not happened. People keep pointing out the same accurate reasons why the game is not pay to win. You can get the same advantages without paying as you can by spending real world currency. Currently there is nothing you can get with real world currency that you cannot also get with in game without spending money. The reverse is not true.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

They will use defenses like: well clearly you have never played that other P2W game"

Yet you will notice none of them actually name another game. And even if they were to mention another game it would be some indie game that no one has ever heard of and has like 12 players.

And yet people have named another game and it is neither an indie game, nor a game that no one has ever heard of, and it does have a significant population.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

3. Stat advantage. People say this is now the line until you point out that is has also been crossed then they move it again on you. Strength boosters, regen boosters, speed boosters, and armor boosters, can all be acquired through RNG in the gem store. They give a 5% boost to all your stats and work in both PvE and WvW. This is a direct violation of the so called “line” but once you point this out people will say that 5% doesn’t count or since it doesn’t also include sPvP it doesn’t count.

You don’t need to pay money to get any of the things you mention. If you don’t have to pay for the item it is not pay to win. If I could not reasonably get those items without spending real world currency you would be right.

By your logic low level basic white gear is pay to win because I can choose to buy gems, convert to gold, and buy said gear if I wanted to, even though I can get it through game play.

AntiGw.9367:

Ashen.2907:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Also, I would like to point out that Ascended and Legendary Gear only provides about a 5% bonus to a player characters vital stats when compared to Exotic Gear. That is not enough to be considered a “Significant” bonus. At least not when compared to the large gap in power between a Perfect World International Player who is wearing a full set of Rank 9 Second Recast Armor with Interval Stats, when compared to a player who is simply wearing Standard Rank 9 Armor.

The fact that one can obtain more significant advantage in another game does not make 5% not significant here.

5% is not significant enough to be considered p2w. It’s a minimal difference that gives a fairly equal chance to win.

p2w means you have minimal chance to win against someone with a bigger wallet, if you have a chance at all. p2w means anything from 30-50% difference in power to outright one-shotting of non-paying players.

To clarify, I am not claiming that GW2 is P2W. I am not claiming that 5% is P2W. What I did say was that just because the differential is greater in another game does not mean that 5% is an insignificant boost in this game. Regardless, that 5% difference can be earned in game without spending a dime in GW2 and so it is not P2W.

I disagree with your 30-50% claims. If paying real world money grants a statistical advantage not available to those not spending money it is P2W no matter how small the advantage. This situation does not apply in GW2.

LordByron.8369:

The fact you can bypass gold, (that is the hardest wall in acquiring best equipmen) via real money is the pure definition of p2w.

No, a more accurate definition would be if paying money surpassed gold, not bypassed it. Paying real money does not give a significant advantage, if any at all, over those who choose to pay gold.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Also, I would like to point out that Ascended and Legendary Gear only provides about a 5% bonus to a player characters vital stats when compared to Exotic Gear. That is not enough to be considered a “Significant” bonus. At least not when compared to the large gap in power between a Perfect World International Player who is wearing a full set of Rank 9 Second Recast Armor with Interval Stats, when compared to a player who is simply wearing Standard Rank 9 Armor.

The fact that one can obtain more significant advantage in another game does not make 5% not significant here.

Draco.2806:

everything GW2 was supposed to be.

was supposed to be =/= is.

Draco.2806:

OF COURSE cosmetic are the endgame goal.

And yet the game started out with very few such options not available from fairly early on in a character’s leveling process. Then there is the gear grind added… Hmm, more of that than cosmetic options added. Sounds like cosmetics are not really the endgame focus for ANet.

Draco.2806:

GW2 didn’t want the gear stat treadmill, so it used the GW1 model of rewarding players with cosmetic items..

No, Anet claimed that they didn’t want gear grind and intended to use the GW1 model of rewarding players with cosmetic items. That lasted how long ? Two months ? Compare the gear stat progression added to the amount of non-gemshop cosmetic progression added since launch.

Ashen.2907:

2) The gemshop cosmetics are among the least attractive options in the game.

Draco.2806:

Uh… No.

And yet others disagree. Perhaps cosmetics are purely subjective in value ? Personally there is not a single gemshop armor option that I would use even if Anet paid me rather than the other way around.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

It’s better than 5 or 6 years of doing nothing else in the game but farming.

I disagree.

If two years is too much then three or four more years is irrelevant. Its like poison. If two ounces is a lethal dose taking six ounces does not make the imbiber more dead.

Draco.2806:

Ashen.2907:

Not really.

Ya rly.

1) Cosmetics are not necessarily the endgame in GW2.

2) The gemshop cosmetics are among the least attractive options in the game.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Heck this game is the closest to a legitimate Free to Play Game that you are actually likely to ever see in an economy like this world actually has.

There are games even more liberal than GW2 when it comes to free to play, but I agree with most of the remainder of your post (though I do not consider two years farming to get an in game item to be good).

Draco.2806:

Cosmetics are supposed to be the endgame goal in GW2, correct?

Not really.

Draco.2806:

Some of the best cosmetics are only available in the gem shop, correct?

Not really.

STRanger.5120:

The fact is that if GW2 had the targetting system like Tera (crosshair)

This would be horrible in GW2. I love the idea in theory (and use it in another MMO), but when a game obscures mobs behind excessive particle effects it is not a good idea to require players to aim character attacks.

Awesome gesture.

GW1 was/is a very good game. It is worth a shot just as any other game with a good reputation is worth a shot.

You guys might want to check into the details of the original plans for dyes before getting too upset about the changes mentioned above. The implementation that was scrapped in favor of what we have now was going to be much more restrictive. What we have now is far superior to what was in the works when they were talking about account wide dyes.

Sibenice.5298:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

please tell me which other games lets you to use in game gold to buy cash shop currencies?

Off the top of my head… Neverwinter…

All of the Cryptic titles (Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Neverwinter) actually.

Vayne.8563:

And as long as people continue to bring the manifesto into an argument about ascended gear

You have it backwards. This is a discussion thread about the manifesto. Did you not read the title and OP ?

Vayne.8563:

Anet has a 3 year old video on their site that doesn’t say anything at all about gear grind or ascended gear or vertical progression. Not one word. It doesn’t matter if you personally interpreted that way.

I didn’t say that it did.

Vayne.8563:

As for no required grind, there are people on this forums besides me who maintain there is no required grind in this game.

I did not say that there was.

Vayne.8563:

Keeping an old video on a website along with dozens and dozens of other videos is not supporting an old video. It’s just not removing something which some people still think didn’t stray far from the mark.

Continuing to display an advertisement is supporting that advertisement. It is completely irrelevant that there are other videos present as well.

Vayne.8563:

Your opinion that vertical progression was somehow talked about in the manifesto isn’t backed up by the manifesto video itself.

What are you talking about ? I expressed no such opinion.

All I said there was that so long as ANet chooses to support and display the manifesto it is a valid topic of discussion.

The combat in GW2 is very well done with a few exceptions.

I love the ability to attack while moving as well as the ability to dodge. Mobility in general is done well in GW2.

Unfortunately the way boons and such stack runs counter to the idea of a highly mobile combat system in group play.

Overall I find GW2’s solo combat to be some of the best I have ever seen while its group combat is some of the worst.

Vayne.8563:

More ways to get ascended gear, for example, would make it better for people who don’t want to craft.

I agree.

Vayne.8563:

The manifesto argument is a distracting side show that will change nothing. I’m happy to hear people complain about ascended gear all day if they don’t like it. At least that has a chance of being constructive. Manifesto posts…not so much.

I would agree if Anet was not still officially presenting/supporting the Manifesto. I don’t think the arguments about it will go away as long as it is a current matter. If Anet is still presenting it on the official site its not some ancient video that we shouldn’t bother with any longer.

Vayne.8563:

I’m forced to disagree with this. The amount of time spent talking about something indicates its importance.

So Justin Bieber, or insert teen heartthrob of the moment here, is more important than pretty much everything else in the world? Interesting theory ; P

It doesn’t matter that a company advertises other products or aspects of their one product more heavily. If they don’t consider X to be important they should not use X to convince people to buy their product.

Vayne.8563:

They also said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game but we didn’t have time to include it at launch. You may or may not believe that, but they did say it.

That claim is inaccurate.

What was said was:

Chris Whiteside

First of all in retrospect it would have been better to have included Ascended Gear at launch.

For what it is worth:

It does not matter what percentage of the total discussion of GW2 any one aspect of the game represented. If you claim X in order to convince people to purchase your product it doesn’t matter that you discussed Y at greater length. The discussion of Y is irrelevant to the claims made about X.

Lothirieth.3408:

Learn to start being mobile and dodge. Otherwise, you might have a bad time. :P

This is very good advice. So many of us came from games where mobility was not such a big deal. Here it is an integral part of character survivability.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s inaccurate that you can play with Exotics the same as if you had Ascended? Quite the opposite, as you can. My argument is supported by facts, so it is accurate.

You are mistaken for a couple of reasons:

1) The results are not the same and so the conditions are not the same. If you hit for more damage with ascended than with exotics the play is not the same. If you meant, “similar,” rather than, “the same,” you might have been correct. As it stands the facts contradict your statement.

2) It is not play without best in slot gear for some people. This means that they are not playing if using exotics rather than ascended. If having ascended means they are playing while having exotics means they are not playing, by definition those two situations are not the, “same.” Playing is not the same as not playing.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ll counter this too. GW2 is alt-friendly, where as you can easily gear any and all your character with Exotics, and play the game the same as if you had Ascended gear.

This is inaccurate.

enzo.7182:

Ashen.2907:

Wallace MacBix.2089:

Also you’re really forgetting about PvE. Condition users get the shaft in all things PvE.

Indeed.

i do agree that condition damage in PVE is a little under powered due to having trouble getting stacks up and your stacks not hitting as hard as a crit/ crit damage/power build. im not even saying that they do to much damage in pvp. my main argument is that there is not enough defense against conditions at the moment. i have tried every class and some are ok due to having weapons that help with condition removal but others are not and there is not enough negative condition duration out there to make an in pact on classes that are able to get 20 stacks of bleeds ticking for 1500 plus poison ticking for 900 plus confusion or burning that tick for 1000 to 1300 O and lets not forget about the five stacks of torment ticking for 5000 when i move and 2000 when im just standing there. so i either stand there and die or run and try to kill you if my condition removal utility’s are on cool down and die then too. that’s ruffly 3000 to 5000 depending on conditions available of continuous damage a tick with the bunker condition user i.e dire gear toughness, vitality, condition damage with condition damage being the highest stat on the gear. i play bunker builds and with all the negitive conditon duration i can get plus condition removal i can get and vitality, toughness i still get dominated by conditions. i have to run and try to hit them and when i do i dont do much damage because i have to wear tanky gear to try and survive against them but im not able to hit them enought to do any reall damage and there able to just stealth/ cc me and run around untill i die form all the conditions. i would not thing it was over powered if the fight was a close fight with two bunker builds fighting each other but condition classes condition bunkers are so strong that even with a group there hard to take down. you should not be able to be very tanky and do good continuous damage on a player in pvp with the other player only gets to hit you every so often even if there hits are a littel stronger but compared to doing 3000 to 5000 for a hit then geting cc and kited for 6 seconds for 3000 to 5000 a second the conditions do the higher damage a second when compared to classes that done get good conditions and are maily melee damage bases. also when you hit me with conditions they go through my armor and tick straight off my health poor with no damage reduction at all and when i hit you i still have to go through your armor which reduces damage even if not very much for though that don’t have high armor but im not talking about them im talking about the bunker condition builds that have high armor and vitality and condition damage. like i have said before this is not just my thoughts but a lot of people i have talked to as well that also play the bunker condition builds and they also say there is a little to powerful against some classes.

It sounds as if you are making a fairly solid argument that condition damage needs a better counter in one of the game’s modes.

Just keep in mind that better anti-condition options could mean that condition builds, already among the worst possible options in most of the game, could become all but useless in the entire game.

Dog.1472:

I dunno, I don’t know why this is that surprising. This is what happens when is game has no subscription and is free to play. The money comes from somewhere, in this case it’s convenience and cosmetics.

The game already had almost the exact same things since launch. You could buy more character slots, more inventory slots, more bank slots. This is exactly the same as all of that. You don’t need these things to play. They add convenience, sure, but it ultimately doesn’t make or break the game for anyone.

If you don’t want to pay a subscription this is what you get.

What he said.

Wallace MacBix.2089:

Also you’re really forgetting about PvE. Condition users get the shaft in all things PvE.

Indeed.

I collected minis in GW1 because of their trade value. I never really had much use for them otherwise. I don’t dislike them either though.

Personally I think it would be fine if there was a much larger pool of minis that were only available in game, were tradeable, and if the mini rewards for various activities were random.

Make the trade and collect aspect more of a mini-game while giving those who do not care for them the option to sell them for in game currency.

Latinkuro.9420:

anyone that wanted one of the elite armor sets aka gw1 version of ascended armor
needed to grind a lot of very rare, very high priced materials that took months to acquire.

I could (and did) acquire an elite set (sets actually) of armor in two hours of farming in GW1. I am not claiming that such was the norm, but you state, “anyone,” and are tossing around accusations of lying so you might want to make your own post a bit more accurate.

Also you might want to consider that elite armor sets in GW1 were not a version of ascended armor because they provided no stat advantage over non elite armors. The merits of armor appearance is completely subjective (I disliked most Vabbian and FoW armors for example) whereas numerical/statistical increases are objective. There is no comparison between GW1 elite armor and ascended armor in GW2. It is very much an apples and oranges thing.

I dislike Scarlet. She is a bit too cartoonish for my taste. I don’t doubt that others do like her though.

I think it is a disservice to one’s opinion to attempt to claim that the, “majority,” or, “most people,” or whatever dislike her as well. If YOU don’t like her, say so. It is not the best idea to claim to speak for tens of thousands of others though.

That said, those who argue, “just don’t play the content if you don’t like it,” are making an argument every bit as flawed. The living story is the primary source of new content release. If someone is a fan of GW2, loves the game, has invested themselves in their characters, has spent money on gems, etc, it is unreasonable to suggest that they not express a desire that the only new content of significance be something that they can enjoy.

Were the Scarlet story arc a single piece of a larger picture of content release during the period of time she has been around there would be much less of an issue. The people who like her could play her story arc while those who dislike her could play through a different story arc.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You can enjoy this game normally with just Exotics.

Did you mean to say, “I can enjoy this game normally with just Exotics ?”

I ask because I do not think that you can judge how anyone other than yourself can enjoy the game.
———————————————-

Before ascended gear I felt that the game was alt friendly. After, not so much.

Good luck and may your path be fulfilling.

For what it is worth I rather dislike the armor myself. I am not, however, at all offended by it. Being offended is a choice. If someone chooses to be offended by something it is a measure of them not of the thing.

I tend to not like armors that don’t look like they could actually protect the wearer.

eekzie.5640:

The biggest problem I have this armor is that it simply doesn’t live up to the quality I expect of a game. It’s not a stylistic choise, it simply is too far of what I expect a game should present to you. I can not support designers who willingly make you look like you’re working on a street corner.

No one makes you look like anything of the sort. You have to choose to wear the armor.

Can’t honestly say I’ve ever seen anyone dressed like that on any streetcorner I’m aware of.

eekzie.5640:

A simple alteration to the armor would still leave it skimpy, but it’d remove the impure aspect of the armor.

Impure aspects like women choosing to allow their face to be seen, or showing some ankle, or wearing clothing that doesn’t completely conceal the shape of their figure ?

Or is it a matter of simply believing that the female form is somehow impure or wrong ?

eekzie.5640:

Not buying it doesn’t solve the problem. This is not about me personally buying it.

The level of immaturity that is explicitely adhesive to the design of a showing underboob is one I do not wish to have in a high-standard game.
It also does not belong to the fantasy world that is Tyria.

The people who own the fantasy world that is Tyria disagree with you about what belongs in the game world. I do not always agree with them, often do not in fact, but unless you are offering to cough up the millions of dollars it would take to buy the game/studio from NCsoft…you don’t get to decide what belongs in the game.

There is nothing inherently (or explicitly) immature about the form of the female body except in that one might not be fully grown and so be physically immature.

There is no burden of proof on Anet in this matter.

An official alliance system would be an excellent addition to the game.

Orr is my favorite region of the game world. Unfortunately it does not appear that ANet is inclined to do what it would take to get me back there.

Zero.

I do not craft in games.

MrRuin.9740:

Because you’re paying to be pretty

and perhaps not even that because gemstore options are not necessarily “prettier” than in game options.

Initially yes.

Now, no.

angelpaladin.7921:

Ok I simplify it for you. Until you can find a lawyer willing to eat the cost of taking this to court (which would most likely be millions) or you your self decide to take it to court then its a legal binding contract. On top of that its a legal binding contract until a judge say’s otherwise. Basically until a judge say’s this contract isn’t legal Anet can do as they please with our accounts.

I agree that ANet can essentially do as they please in this sort of situation with little fear of legal action on the part of affected players but…

The fact that nearly all of the power in the relationship between ANet and any given player lies with ANet does not mean that the contract is legally binding, just that it is binding (so far).

Devata.6589:

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

And again there is the kill argument again. This is a PvE game. The goal is fluff, not killing.

There is more killing in PvE than in PvP. Killing monsters is not your goal in game but that does not necessarily hold true for others.

There is indeed a lot of killing but with maybe the exception of a few bosses no the killing is not the goal, the loot that people can get from the kill is the goal in at least 95% of all kills.

Source ?

I like the idea.

I loved many of GW1’s armor sets. Getting them into GW2 would be great.

This is an area where reskinning could be a great monetization approach. Release GW1 armor skins through gameplay but sell reskins in the gem shop.

frostysnowthug.1046:

Seems to me, though the armor was less expensive than the T3 human armor, it’s value is now priceless for those that have it. Optimism, a dish best served at your preferred temperature. (\/)(;,,;)(\/)

Thank you for sharing that image ! Literally laughed out loud.

Substance E.4852:

$10 gets you sent to small claims court where Anet will show up with a lawyer/s, show the judge a copy of the agreed upon EULA with documentation showing they refunded the gems bought with $10, and the whole thing will be over by lunch.

This very much depends on where the case is filed I suppose:

1) Lawyers cannot represent either party in small claims court in some areas where ANet does business.

2) EULA agreement are not binding in some areas in some areas where ANet does business.

3) The gems were advertised as providing a specific function at the time of purchase. ANet advertised that gems could be used to acquire the T3 reskin. ANet removed that functionality from those gems.

Its not open and shut either way.

angelpaladin.7921:

Once more I am not a lawyer but
I bet the moment you tried taking them to court over 10 dollars they just ban your entire account. Why because at that point they have no interest in keeping you as a customer. They have ZERO obligation to continue to provide you the rental service you currently receive. At the end of the day it still won’t matter because you be out of your account so that 10 dollars would be gone your account would be gone and you have thousand’s of dollars worth of legal fee’s assuming you even got it to a court.

I suppose it depends on whether or not a company can legally take punitive action against an individual for pursuing a good faith legal claim against it. Such is illegal, as in criminally so, in some areas.

I am not certain that something that can be had for a one time fee can be defined as a, “rental.” If you do define GW2 as a rental service then the one time fee covers a period of time defined as the life of the game in its entirety from the point of purchase until the closing of the game. The customer has already paid for next year’s, and the year after, etc (assuming the game lasts that long) rent. A company generally cannot legally continue to charge, or keep prepaid, “rent,” for a service they have chosen to cease to provide.

You are absolutely correct in that it is generally not worth even attempting to go to court over ten dollars. It is also generally not worth alienating a customer who has demonstrated a willingness to spend money on your product… over ten dollars.

I believe that ANet will provide cash refunds for gems purchased for the purpose of acquiring the armor. I hope that they will also refund/replace transmutations stones used. I expect that people who bought dyes, a weapon skin to match, etc will be out of luck.

I think it would be a good idea to throw together some sort of bonus or token of appreciation for those who bought the armor. Not because they have to, or because people will sue, or anything of the sort, but as a sign that they understand and appreciate the inconvenience that a situation such as this can cause for their players. Customer goodwill is a valuable commodity that is all too easily lost.

Protoavis.9107:

MisterEction.9382:

…….

On a tangent, I’m surprised your name hasn’t been changed given that the last part MisterEction can’t be a coincidence and it’s exactly appropriate.

When read quickly it comes out as Misdirection (to me). The portion you bolded has more than one meaning as well.

MisterEction.9382:

They are under no legal obligation to do so.

I am not sure that this is the case.

Consider that at the time some people bought gems specifically to get the armor ANet advertised that the gems could be used to acquire that armor.

If a company removes an advertised utility of a purchased product, gems in this case, then I think one could potentially make a solid legal case for a refund. Not that this would be likely to go to court of course.