Guild Wars 2

we’ll see…

if they manage to reward a good majority of players at a good pace without anything feeling grindy; they win.

so far they failed only at utmost endgame, for players that have finished the story line and did all high lvl maps and dungeons.
they failed at the “ascended and legendary” stage.
the only solution they had was a “grind” for these 2 gear tier.

exotic is find, yeah its “kind of a grind” but one that happens almost naturally by just playing the game.

the stat progression, as mild as it is, is in opposition to their original intent.

and the reason why it changed, is still unknown to us;
most players like this ?
somebody forced them ?

hard to say.

indeed.

the “killers” win in that type of game.

unless, you really design a crazy system that gives a lot of power to crafters and/or other types of players, rendering them very valuable to certain player organization.

that would require implementing different gameplays in the same game to accomodate different player types.

again, EvE is quite revolutionary by having this new console game shooter tied to their online world and changing it.

sounds interesting.
id like to play a major production as mature as that.

but probably the player base is too low for this kind of game to be profitable?
there is always the different ages, maturity and languages of all players involved.
i understand the difficulties in designing such games.

in that regard, GW2 did a good job at upgrading the old EQ style.

but its no revolution

Ditton.3149:

yeah you want FFA, free for all..means I can attack you any time and usually you drop stuff.

a “controlled” FFA.
same thing as why isnt everybody killing each others in our modern world?

the game would need to make it hard on “bad guys”. but also rewarding.
maybe they couldnt go to major cities anymore or get bounties on their head or whatever.

i just find that right now, mmos are way to farmland style, in a sense that they are not dangerous.
the beast usually waits for you in the middle of the field and you can always attack it when you feel like it, or run beside. …

the revolutionary thing is that you can be something in the world.

you can work for other players! aint that crazy.

andany players are chosen for their speciality.

i dont know whats FFA.

but they could have done an Mmo in which you have to go thru certain steps in wvwvw to be able to reach safe lands or dungeon etc.
maybe i want a game where pvp matters, in which players can be evil of you hang out at the wrong place.

it can be done.
with a notoriety system like UO (you get bounty put on you if you are bad, your name turns red, eventually npc attack you on sight in most place), or a faction system like WoW (horde va alliance).

but im just daydreaming, that totally wasnt the design idea of gw2 and i know it.

i would have loved that wvwvw been more integrated in the PvE.
now it feels a lot like two separate worlds..

but i guess anet made this to please the extreme pvper and extreme pver that cant stand to play both types.

the manifesto for gw2 was: get the most fantasy mmo players as possible in 1 game.

the difficulty is in finding the right spot between “balance and progression”.

how much more powerfull should a character be if he played 10 times as more as another character ? 10 times ?

or the game is entirely skill based, like a classic shooter.
but then how do you implement progression ?
and in a rpg, people usually want the “from zero to hero” feeling.

its quite tricky actually…
and the solution can t be simple.
thats one thing.

then there is the grind, what to do to alleviate the “grind”.
nowadays, with google, not a lot of content can ever be too hard.
so how do you limit progression?
like EvE ? learning skills at a real world time speed ?

so all in all, GW2 isnt that bad.
its nothing revolutionary, but they made the curve very very smooth.

rchu.8945:

Avatar.1923:

its a treadmill, clear and simple, but a “mild” one.

ie; the stats difference isnt big.

obviously, if you play for one year and some guy start playing next year, the difference in term of stats at this point will be quite big.
but maybe theyll find a way of giving out the “second best” always cheap so that most people can get second best.

basically, play the game if you enjoy the content and the gameplay.
the grind is huge for not much, so just go with the flow and eventually youll get your shinnies.

see, that’s the problem once we as a community accepted these type of implementation, Anet will just keep following it with more and more of them. In the end, someone that begin playing game compare to someone that play it for few years, the gear difference will be huge. If Anet will keep giving out “welfare” upgrades in between new type of upgrades, it pretty much just made the whole thing a huge time sink, which is something they promised they wouldn’t do in the first place?

probably rhat despite all Anet good will, they couldnt come up with a more revolutionary design than a gear treadmill.
they made the “next warcraft”, but not the “next cult game”.

and now that all this treadmill is implemented, i wouldnt put my hopes up on them changing everything they have in the design bin.

gw2 will live as long as the next “cult, big” fantasy mmo isnt out.

and it could be Elder scroll (but i doubt) or Titan (i believe in Blizzard on that one).

EVE, is indeed the most revolutionary mmo on the market, and its like 8y old…

seems like no big studio is willing to risk making something innovative and different;

for whatever reason; i say; watch out Blizzards Titan. this probably will be the next big thing as Blizzard (like them or not) are capable of innovation.

i feel you.

there was a big hope/hype for a very revoluionary mmo.
but in the end we get the same as before, in a more sexy way.

its allright, but there is a bit of disapointement in my heart

its a treadmill, clear and simple, but a “mild” one.

ie; the stats difference isnt big.

obviously, if you play for one year and some guy start playing next year, the difference in term of stats at this point will be quite big.
but maybe theyll find a way of giving out the “second best” always cheap so that most people can get second best.

basically, play the game if you enjoy the content and the gameplay.
the grind is huge for not much, so just go with the flow and eventually youll get your shinnies.

we all agree gw2 is no revolution.

its just a perfection of what was there before, like a meltin pot of the best things we saw so far.

imo, an mmo revolution will definitely need very deep dynamic mechanism and obviously, very important, player generated content.
you have to be able to alter the world in a much bigger way, like in a society.

right now, mmos are very “self centered” and not online worlds as they pretend to be.

guild wars 2 is a “better” warcraft.

it takes the same concept, and make it better.

its a great game, but WE ARE VERY FAR FROM A REVOLUTION.

ill ditch an insane amount of hours in it, but deep in my heart i hope someday a designer come up with a really revolutionary fantasy mmo.

if the step to get ascended gear would have been just a little above the step to go from rare to exotic.
it would make sense.
its normal for a classic rpg to have progression.

problem is the huge grind that comes with the ascended gears.
that grind was put there for a certain group of people, for “damage control” and keep them on the treadmill.
but now everyone playing 2h a week is doing that treadmill too… and thats a problem.

Chris isnt alone there.
its a whole meeting room with many elfs working, feeding the information and checking on this exact thread too.

its normal.
its a big game, its many players, its a big reputation, and putting their name on the line like this is tuff.
you have to give them that.
they lied, they changed their minds, they readjusted, they make it more viable…

we all learn

" moving forward, everything will be HaPpY !! "

….
hype me more will ya ? just can’t get enough.

Perseus Ithikus.5483:

Shocking amount of time being taken between answers only for most of them to be generic PR replies.

they answered your questions already.

it is a grind and they are reducing the grind at each time they release a new piece of gear so that you swallow it better.

legendary, then ascended bk pack and ring, and the next powercreep should be easier to get than bk pack and ring.

when you have all ascended after a year they will redo an AMA to implement the new treadmill.

what else you want to know son ?

GrapeGatsby.6937:

Lothair.8942:

GrapeGatsby.6937:

Relentliss.2170:

I don’t think they have helped themselves at all here. The blokes who are most pissed want an honest roadmap for the next year not a bunch of pr speak.

50 ectos (with the current drop rate) and 250 t6 ingredients…. how is that minimal grind? The deception and lying is galling.

Get fractals and buy the fractal version of the ascended back piece.

1800 fractal tokens is not an easy fix Sir.

It isn’t that bad you should already have a decent amount by the time you reach the point in FotM that you actually need the resistance.

still a huge fractal grind for people who dont like to repeat the same dungeon 60 times.

arabeth.2361:

Serious question: why do mainstream companies like Anet use Reddit to answer questions like this, when Reddit is most famous for being a site that people use to post creepy pictures of underage girls? Also: it’s a horrible site for organizing any kind of information. It seems like the sketchy nature and poor structure of the site would be a terrible match.

because if they host it on their servers its going to lag.

“hehe”.

see it for what it is; a grindy vertical progression game.
(at endgame only, getting to exotic gear doesnt feel as such at all).

play it until you cant grind no more. it is a fun game.

thats what ill do!

well, this AMA is basically a political ploy for Anet to go back on their manifesto, rewritting it.

zero grind, zero grind… to me “grinding” is repeating the same thing over and over, and i dont see how there is zero grinding in this game.

gotta give that to Anet; their utopia is awesome.

its just gonna take some time to fix!

it will be a vertical grind.
unless you consider that the “randomness” of fractals eliminate the grind, in that case… i guess its allright.

thats it, thats all.

Chris is doing politics.

omg, tough job, with the mob of angry fans and him having to juggle to save his false manifesto.
in the end, what is the definition if “grinding” and “powercreep” ?

whatever, that is going to end stale, people will continue raging, its like a drama tv show! love it

level 20+ in one week ?

aie aie,

i feel left behind already :/

glad you enjoyed the game for over 200h.

now go on exploring the map/dungeons, or do pvp.
gear grind is “endgame” for players who likes it.

otherwise we hope an expension will bring us more exploration!

all in all, we have to agree that anet implemented the fractals to keep the grinders grinding.

but i find that they ruined the game for all players not yet at endgame or that dosnt start the game yet.

new players, theyll start with the fractals and end with the fractals ?
its a terrible hamster wheel that some people fear to avoid.
it makes a 400h of new content great game into an “eternal mediocre one”.

well said Tobias.

insanity is about doing the same thing over and over expecting things to change.

that was a quote from far cry 3 psycopath evil dude

insanity is doing the same things over and over again expecting things to change.

and there is a lot of insanity in this world

Deadcell.9052:

I have been playing significantly less due to not many other players wanting to do ALL the content anymore. Don’t get me wrong FOTM is a good dungeon I am just not the type of player who likes only playing 1 dungeon all the time to get an upgrade and progress a character. I usually like doing a different dungeon everyday, mixing in some wvwvw,spvp, and some de’s when wanting to mingle with other players on the server. Most of this is gone now, very rarely I see someone spamming for anything other than FOTM, wvwvw is seeing significantly less in participation so some nights can get frustrating, and DE’s are empty most of the time.

I have no problem with a gear progression system just don’t force everyone into 1 playstyle in 1 place.

that is also exactly my situation.
i expect anet will take care of that.

i hope.
i want to be able to finish the story mode dungeons one day…
anni already did fractals (that have no story element, are just random vignette, dont feel alive in the world) more than 5 times.

ridiculous!
fear drives me, im afraid of being left out of the “gang” if i dont do fractals.

weird design choice.
or terrible mistake.
or profitable reason that im too stupid to understand.

Tobias;

there is no way the game can keep the massive amout of hardcore players without treadmill and esport.

gw2 want to be the next big thing, and to be that big you need gear treadmill until somebody come up with a better fantasy mmo design.

Logun.2349:

A week ago I saw a MMO that had a path to endgame for me. Last week I saw a game that saw all players as deserving of endgame content and provided the player with the freedom of choice on what that endgame was going to be.

Today I just see a game that is closing those options, making dungeons the new raids and diminishing its own open world content in the process.

So pretty much lost my drive for the game at the moment until I see what direction this is going I’m off ….NEXT!

a week ago many players complained about “lack of endgame” and “legendary too expensive”.
you know, we have to realize that mmo players are hamsters.
this is how its meant to be.
UO wasnt like that, and unfortunately the hamster model is far more profitable…
the game isnt the problem; its the players

fractals are weird, because its a hamster wheel and people dont want to benleft behind.

im actually “ok” with adding ascended gear.
but making fractals the only place to be for elitists players is just not healthy for the game.
players complain, but still do it….
is it how WoW succeded ??

yeah, fractals screwed it up….

players are afraid to step out of the fractal hamster wheel because they might not find a group later on.
they should have done a grind that actually takes you to different dungeons/part of the world.

anyway, there is also the ultimate grinders, D3 style players, that account for a lot of the playerbase; an no matter what it is, they will repeat the same content over and over IF this is the most rewarding content.

sad, really.
thats a problem with mmos, until somebody come up with a better design.

reality is;

people are scared of stepping out of the fractal treadmill right now, because they might not find a group later on.

aint it sad

a player told me this:

I got to have over 500 hours into the game and I haven’t seen many of the old dungeons paths yet! But the problem is if you fall behind on the fractals dungeon and the community out paces you in difficulty level, you have problems finding a group. So many people are sort of afraid to get off the hamster wheel at the moment.

….

FEAR

thats what drives human…

go visit if it suits your fancy.
or make an alt.

or grind the fractals.

your call.

Toxica.6749:

Now that progression and grind have become the name of the game there’s really no point to me playing this game where they were added as an afterthought.

There are many titles on the market where character progression and related grind were a part of the design philosphy and intent and they do these things far better than Anet can ever hope to.

how many hours did you play ?
there IS a point to the game until the grind kicks in.
still, some players actually do continue to play diablo 3 after finishing inferno, just to do it faster…

something i need a psycology class about human nature to understand i suppose.

at the end of the day, only the players who like to repeat content (grinders) or pvper will play that game for years to come.
regular pve players will drop out eventually.

so its normal to focus on treadmill and esport features.

enjoy the game for what you actually enjoy doing, its a lot of content and a lot of fun!
if you start to grind eternally for a minor upgrade and you get angry about it…, i think its “game over”.

its a game.
its really enjoyable to progress to lvl 80, finish the story, participate in some dungeon, finish the map explore, checkout pvp, do a few sunday afternoon of wvwvw.
i mean after 400h,, yeah, my “interest” will be less.
im not a “grinder/farmer”, and essentially, i feel some people need to grind to enjoy the game.
if there is a solution to keep these players playing witout grinding, please enlighten me…
at the end of the day, its a great game, but it isnt the only one.
and its probably the game ill have spend the most time playing in the last few years!
amazing.
im not looking to “keep grinding” the same content over and over until i get +1% stat.
actually, i dont mind at all the treadmill or whatever, this isnt for me, and the game is still a huge amount of fun and hours without it.

its a game.

its really enjoyable to progress to lvl 80, finish the story, participate in some dungeon, finish the map explore, checkout pvp, do a few sunday afternoon of wvwvw.

i mean after 400h,, yeah, my “interest” will be less.

im not a “grinder/farmer”, and essentially, i feel some people need to grind to enjoy the game.
if there is a solution to keep these players playing witout grinding, please enlighten me…

at the end of the day, its a great game, but it isnt the only one.
and its probably the game ill have spend the most time in in the last few years!

amazing.

im not looking to “keep grinding” the same content over and over until i get +1% stat.
actually, i dont mind a all the treadmill or whatever, this isnt for me, and the game is still a huge amount of fun and hours without it.

its fun until it becomes a grind, or that you cant find group for story dungeon.

but really, thats about 250h or more into the game.
so, not bad

800h… omg.

i see now how some people can possibly have full map completion + being fractal 20 already.

wow. astounding.
i guess the fractals where designed for players in your category. (not saying you in particular, but people as dedicated as you).

if you can do 1 dungeon “story” mode a week to help the casuals who cant do their story mode… that would be very nice of you

the game is huge/beautiful/fun.

but at endgame is stink. and unfortunately, putting all endgame people at the same place, kind of makes the game more “diablo 3” than a lively world.

just avoid lions arch, stick to your hometown youll avoid the madness.
just too bad for the story mode dungeon, good luck finding a group..

the game is very big, and i dont know if i agree with the way they disconnected it for all different type of players;
-explorers/story pve
-pvp
-wvw
-dungeon grinders

and yeah, i myself and “explorer” (casual mind you) would much prefer to finish my 8 dungeon story mode.
but right now its nigh impossible.. so i run a fractal here and there.

honestly, i just dont like the idea of fractals (not talking about gameplay here), i dont like how they just dont fit in the story/world.
its totally Diablo 3 rerun farm&grind.
but i think arenanet knew that….
if you talk to the consortium; theyll tell you that tyrian will “rethink how the spend their time” and that they are there for “profit”.
and then in dyssa labs, asuran as stormtroopers and dyssa telling you how bad these fractals are, and why you have to grind them.

fractals are a hugely negative blow to this game.
and i feel sad that arenanet couldnt find a better solution to keep players playing.

i still like the game, and please, make the dungeon story mode soloable because nobody does them anymore (its near impossible to find 5 people at once…).

well…

it aint easy right ?
nobody wants to play at being a game designer ?

after you repeated FotM enough to get all your ascended gear, will you:

1- stop playing until they add more gear
2- keep grinding whatever to get a legendary
3- pvp/wvwvw
4- roll an alt
5- complain on forum

?
answer with a number.