Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Bottom line: Sustain is worth nothing without mitigation.
And because a Bunker Guardian can really kill so much more effectively than a Bunker Warrior.
Solid Argument right there.
It’s called “Bunker” for a reason. Every class can trait one way and gear another.
Now you’re just spit’n out some ridiculous stuff.
Maybe the issue is you’re part of the 90%.
So you’re telling me that Chris’s healway build is not a bunker build and that’s why he can kill 1vX. Never have I seen a warrior video of yours. Walk on the other side of the line first and tell me how warriors are.
Guardians also have access to burning damage which procs every 5 attacks. Traits that procs burning and heavy mitigation of damage which helps their EHP go up dramatically. Blinds, Aegis, Blocks, Virtues, protection, access to nearly perma vigor, heal on dodge, the list goes on. You tell me who can bunker better.
I’m the 90% of the warriors that know that bunkering won’t do anything but delay the inevitable. I’m not some buffbot that has to carry banners around and provide little to no damage for the team and lie to myself that I’m making a great contribution. No burst healing, no crazy boon uptime on protection, might, swiftness, stability, or retaliation. Sure, warriors have some more sustain now but it doesn’t mean jack if you can’t reduce damage taken. Warriors are kill or be killed. That doesn’t mean they are 100derp builds.
My opinion is you have no clue what you’re talking about unless you’ve played a warrior. Bunker wise, guardian wins hands down vs a bunker warrior. I’ve spent quite a bit of time and money on this game trying different builds, gear layouts, read a lot of forum posts on Bash, Brutaly, Chris, Obtena, TehSanny, Matale and many more which I always look closely at and bounce ideas off of.
I like to think I have a little idea of what I am talking about but I respect it’s your opinion.
To be fair, Chris’s build relies almost exclusively on retaliation. all you have to do is choose not to fight him and its an auto draw. Condition warriors can have decent sustain, which honestly ends up about the same as bunker guards, the issue is that while the meta is conditions and everyone is running over the top condition removal to counter it, retaliation has no true counter, other then not hitting people.
That’s true and I failed to mention that. Warriors do lack retaliation. We have a trait that we get at 30 Defense called Spiked Armor but it’s 5 seconds on a 15 cd. Without Quick Breathing + Warhorn we don’t have much else to go for. I agree after watching Oozo’s video and it’s something I am taking great interest in researching to see how I can effectively create a condition bunker warrior. I just wish S+S/LB had more access to different conditions besides burning, bleeding, and torment or rather quick sources to keep the pressure to heavy condition cleansing classes.
How do you even attempt to kill a Healway guardian? They cleanse conditions, they carry protection, retal, and regen for direct damage dealers. You’d have to go GC and hope to hit him when his boons are down or kite him but he has such high uptime on boons which makes it extremely difficult. This is from a warrior’s perspective of course. I am sure it’s a different story with a necro or mesmer.
How to kill a healway? Roll Mesmer/boon steal Thief and just keep ripping boons. Warriors might be able to do it with the right condition build, and possibly out healing the retaliation ticks. As a guardian I gave up, with as many multi hit attack burst skills we have, and the only condition we have being burn, it is pretty much impossible to deal with them. Luckily chris is in my guild, so I don’t have to personally deal with him unless he jumps into the sPvP server im in.
I almost suggested the standard stun spec warrior, then realized that all skills that give retaliation outside of light field combos are instant and usable while stunned >.>
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
2) Preaching a player vs player focused game: Clearly it is not as they just hired 4x’s thier current “Living World” (PVE) development team while WvW / PvP only see updates every 2-3 months (where pve see’s full content + updates every month, sometimes twice).
I’m sure A-net is adding head count to the areas seeing the most player traffic, in this case, PvE (it’s why I play GW2 – I’ve only played WvW 2 or 3 times since launch, and NEVER ONCE played PvP).
As a PvP player, you should be thanking the devs for obviously doing everything they can to tempt players into the PvP/WvW areas – I mean, EVERY ONE of the A-net Point reward chests I just got in the last update was crammed with PvP weapon and armor skins, WvW reward tokens, blueprints, and other gear clearly intended to tempt players like me into the WvW/PvP area. Quite honestly it was kitten ing me off, until I realized that they were just trying to make sure more players got to see the content they designed for that area.
I don’t really considering giving everyone badges/blueprints as trying to get people to WvW. It was honestly more of a free gear hand out, as there is nothing you can get only in WvW compared to any other aspect of the game. If there were something else as a bonus, such as armor skins like spvp, or some type of actual bonus you get for WvWing compared to anything else in the game, that would draw people in.
And honestly, the same thing goes for sPvP. Getting skins didn’t really make me want to sPvP any more than I do, it was a nice bonus, but nothing that would promote people to get more into it.
However this is getting off track of the actual topic, so lets keep it about traits ok guys?
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Bash,
Do you feel the stats per tree are in the correct locations?
Zeal – Power/Cond dur
Radiance – Prec / Cond dmg
Valor – Toughness/C dmg
Honor – Vit / Healing Power
Virtue – Class oriented / Boon duration
————————————————————————————If any of those could be moved around to make more sense, where would you think they would make the most logical move?
My list was:
Zeal – Power/Cond dur
Radiance – Crit/Crit dmg
Valor – Tough/Healing Power
Honor – Vit / Boon duration
Virtue – Class / Cond dmgWith this, there would be some traits (minor and major) that would need to be shifted around to make much more sense of the change but with some current traits I felt this just made more sense.
EDIT: Took a double take of what I wrote and noticed it mirrored Thieves.
With how the traits are set up right now, I honestly feel like it should be:
Zeal: Power/Critical damage
Radiance: Precision/Condition Duration
Valor: Toughness/Condition damage
Honor: Vitality/healing power
Virtues: Class/Boon duration
This would give zeal the actual damage I feel that it is meant to have, and would make more sense as there is only 1 trait in there (fiery wrath) that actually makes sense with condition duration. Meanwhile radiance is full of traits that add conditions that make sense with condition duration such as vulnerability, blind, and also the added bonus of the new torch trait, and the up time on radiant power.
I would move condition damage to valor, along with making some of the traits more condition based (it already has burn on block, but this could also be a good place for a modified shattered aegis that could give bleeds, and maybe a torment based trait.) It just makes sense that a self sustaining trait line would also have conditions since they can take time to actually do damage.
The other two trait lines I would leave as is, but with the suggestions I am thinking of, well mostly virtues which I feel really needs some offensive support to make it more appealing than just for boon duration bunkering, but we will see those once i finally get around to doing them.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Bottom line: Sustain is worth nothing without mitigation.
And because a Bunker Guardian can really kill so much more effectively than a Bunker Warrior.
Solid Argument right there.
It’s called “Bunker” for a reason. Every class can trait one way and gear another.
Now you’re just spit’n out some ridiculous stuff.
Maybe the issue is you’re part of the 90%.
So you’re telling me that Chris’s healway build is not a bunker build and that’s why he can kill 1vX. Never have I seen a warrior video of yours. Walk on the other side of the line first and tell me how warriors are.
Guardians also have access to burning damage which procs every 5 attacks. Traits that procs burning and heavy mitigation of damage which helps their EHP go up dramatically. Blinds, Aegis, Blocks, Virtues, protection, access to nearly perma vigor, heal on dodge, the list goes on. You tell me who can bunker better.
I’m the 90% of the warriors that know that bunkering won’t do anything but delay the inevitable. I’m not some buffbot that has to carry banners around and provide little to no damage for the team and lie to myself that I’m making a great contribution. No burst healing, no crazy boon uptime on protection, might, swiftness, stability, or retaliation. Sure, warriors have some more sustain now but it doesn’t mean jack if you can’t reduce damage taken. Warriors are kill or be killed. That doesn’t mean they are 100derp builds.
My opinion is you have no clue what you’re talking about unless you’ve played a warrior. Bunker wise, guardian wins hands down vs a bunker warrior. I’ve spent quite a bit of time and money on this game trying different builds, gear layouts, read a lot of forum posts on Bash, Brutaly, Chris, Obtena, TehSanny, Matale and many more which I always look closely at and bounce ideas off of.
I like to think I have a little idea of what I am talking about but I respect it’s your opinion.
To be fair, Chris’s build relies almost exclusively on retaliation. all you have to do is choose not to fight him and its an auto draw. Condition warriors can have decent sustain, which honestly ends up about the same as bunker guards, the issue is that while the meta is conditions and everyone is running over the top condition removal to counter it, retaliation has no true counter, other then not hitting people.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Retaliation at 25% health really does not help much, and honestly its very easy to get retaliation as a guardian, the health ticks are also pretty much pointless, at it is like what 600 health overall. at 25% health that isn’t going to save you.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
(edited by Bash.7291)
Just an update, I will be updating this in the next couple days for the last couple trait lines, have been busy with family obligations and have not had much time to work on them at all.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
(edited by Bash.7291)
So far, your evaluation of the traits makes sense to me. Can’t remember a point where I’d strongly disagree right now.
However, I have a nasty feeling that this great compilation will be worthless because ANet will totally ignore it and any related discussions.
I could see that happening, but there are also things that give me a bit of hope. Mostly in a few changes that happened in the last big trait patch, such as GS power being mixed into zealous blade and made into a major. That was suggested multiple times on here and actually made it. Also other things such as long bow buffs for rangers, and also some group utility with their shouts. Just a few things here and there actually made me think they do listen here and there.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
@ the OP, You do realize that you cant take AH and MF which is required for 3 heals on MI right? And seriously you are going to compare it based on 5 guardians in a group? You realize that ANYTHING in a group of 5 is extremely strong? Your issue isn’t with AH, its with the fact that guardians have amazing group support, and when you stick 5 of them together they just magnify it to crazy amounts, It isn’t the AH being thrown around, but the almost perma of every buff. But the same goes for any class, such as Zerker warriors with damage. One could easily complain that their damage is stupid high when you have 5 of them beating on you at once.
You cannot expect an actual discussion regarding something when you take it to extreme circumstances, and exclude all other factors.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
The only easy way to do it is to switch zerker’s for valk pieces. or for a cheaper idea, switch your ruby orbs for beryl orbs. You will lose crit chance, but gain the health you might want. Honestly though, you have plenty enough health. anything about 14k is decent for guards, just because of their general self heals.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
MI I can see as making sense as a ground target, as you have no control over where you end up currently. JI works perfectly fine as it is atm, and changing it to ground target would ruin skills that work well for it. ZD would lose alot of power, because there is no promise you would end up facing the enemy anymore, same with banish, or any frontal attacks in general.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Reserved for anything else that might be needed, Great suggested Ideas, possible personal changes, and also any updates on traits we might get in the future.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Reserved for Virtue Traits, Have yet to do, so may be a day or two.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
(edited by Bash.7291)
Reserved for Honor Traits, Have yet to do, so may be a day or two
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
(edited by Bash.7291)
Valor: +10 Toughness, +1% critical damage per point
5 Valorous Defense: Gain aegis when your health reaches 50%. – Decent, an extra block when you get half health, has a lot of possible synergy with multiple builds.
15 Courageous Return: Virtue of Courage is recharged when you rally. – A free Aegis if you rally, plus an activation of Virtue of Courage as well. So 2 blocks and whatever extra effects you may have traited for courage.
25 Might of the Protector: Gain might when you block attacks. – 15s of might each time you block an attack. This trait makes shelter an INSANELY strong comeback heal when used correctly against multi-hit attacks, and also gives a good bonus to all your aegis application and also focus #5 use.
10 Meditation Mastery: Meditations recharge 20% faster. – Pretty basic CD reduction, standard an effective for the utilities it modifies
10 Defender’s Flame: Gain a 100% chance to burn attackers when blocking. – Another Modification on blocking that works extremely well with Shelter. It is nice in the fact that it gives that extra bit of damage each time you block an attack.
10 Strength of the Fallen: Lose health 33% slower while downed. – Still absolutely hate downed traits. Replace this with Focus Mastery from Zeal, as focus would work better with the blocks here than anything else in the zeal trait line.
10 Strength in Numbers: Nearby allies gain up to 150 toughness based on your effective level. – Pretty amazing trait for 10 points. You can effectively get 250 toughness for yourself with just 10 points, and an extra 150 for your entire group. Personally use this in a lot of my builds now.
10 Purity: Lose a condition every 10 seconds. – Good standard passive condition removal. Stacks with signet of resolve well.
10 Retributive Armor: 5% of toughness is given as a bonus to precision. – I feel like this talent has fell by the wayside a bit after the buff to strength in numbers. The crit chance you get generally isn’t enough to be compared to other traits in the valor, so possibly either a slight buff or rework might be in order.
20 Mace of Justice: Wielding a mace grants 5% additional damage and up to 250 healing power (based on level). – Great after the rework. And fits the self defense style of valor pretty well.
20 Glacial Heart: Critical hits with a hammer have a 100% chance to chill your target for 5 seconds. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds. – As mentioned above, rework it and move it to zeal and a symbol trait, An easy cleanse chill on a 30 second CD is complete garbage. I think a hammer based trait would be great to replace this, but honestly have no clue what to make it into.
20 Honorable Shield: Gain +90 Toughness when wielding a shield and reduce the cooldown on Shield skills by 20%. – Any class that can wear a shield has this trait, and it works perfect for it
20 Focused Mind: Meditation skills are instant. – Semi lackluster but with the recent changed to merciful intervention, may see more use. I am curious to see if the bonus heal on MI with MF is intentional or not before I make a full judgement on this skill.
30 Altruistic Healing: Applying a boon to allies heals you. – The bread and butter of basic survival for guardians. And the main reason everyone goes 30 into valor. Pretty much defines the trait line as a self survival line.
30 Monk’s Focus: Using a meditation skill heals you. – The other basic survival tool, but more geared towards the Damage crowd. Also defines the trait line as a self survival line.
What I feel should be done with Valor: Not much really. The trait line works exactly as it should, self sustain and defense. The only traits that I feel need to me messed with are Strength of the fallen, which really needs to be removed and a new trait added. Cold hearted turned into the symbol trait and moved to zeal. Focus mastery be moved to this line, since the blocking on #5 makes sense with all the modification on blocks in this trait line, and it is a strong defensive offhand. And a new Hammer based trait come into play, But as I said, I have no clue what to add that wouldn’t make the hammer overpowered, as it is already a strong weapon overall already.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
(edited by Bash.7291)
Radiance: Precision +10, Condition damage +10 per point
5: Justice is Blind: When activating Virtue of Justice, nearby foes are blinded. – Very good defensively, also works very well with blind exposure
15: Renewed Justice: Virtue of Justice is renewed when you kill a foe. – Very good for PvE, decent for pvp if your getting a good amount of kills. Works well with blind exposure and the 5 point virtue trait
25: Radiant Power: Deal more damage to foes inflicted with conditions. – 10% extra damage whenever any condition is on an enemy. So pretty much 10% free damage.
10 Healer’s Retribution: Gain 3 seconds of retaliation when using a heal skill. – This one is junk except with the healing breeze bug, also does not make sense in a crit/condition based build, Fury for 5-10 second would make more sense.
10 Signet Mastery: Signets recharge 20% faster. – pretty good, brings our biggest heal to 32 seconds, also helps our CC with 2 signets
10 Shimmering Defense: Burn nearby foes when your health reaches 25% (60-second cooldown). – This one is complete junk and needs an overhaul. Possibly a good place for Shattered Aegis to help add more damaging conditions to this trait line. Could also change shattered aegis to cause bleed stacks (the act of shattering a magical shield and the shards going everywhere)
10 Inner Fire: When you are set on fire, you gain fury. – Situational but VERY strong. In pve it is lackluster, PvP/WvW it is almost free perma fury with the condition heavy meta.
10 Searing Flames: When you apply burning to an [sic] foe, remove a boon. This effect can only trigger once every 20 seconds. – Like the Idea, CD is stupid though. 5 Seconds would most likely be a good idea, just because we have alot of issues with bunkers simply because we have no condition damage variant, and have to suffer breaking through buffs.
10 Blind Exposure: Applying blind also applies 3 stacks of vulnerability (10 seconds). – Awesome trait, synergy with sword/focus/GS/VoJ and also with Radiant power due to the length of the duration.
20 Radiant Fire: Torch skills recharge 20% faster. All burning durations are increased by 20%. – Pretty decent after the buff, the big bonus is not that it gives extra burning ticks on skills, but more that it keeps fiery wrath from zeal active 20% longer.
20 A Fire Inside: Spirit weapons cause burning. – Needs to be moved to a different tree. I still cant understand why they threw some random spirit weapon traits in random trees. This needs to be combined with another spirit weapon trait in zeal, Possibly even Wrathful spirits, simply lower the damage some, and add in the burning they can do.
20 Inscribed Removal: Using a signet cures a condition on you. – Pretty decent when using a signet based build, but somewhat situational as only 2 of our 4 signets are defensive in use. But in the condition heavy meta, any condition removal is good.
20 Powerful Blades: Sword and spear damage is increased by 5%. – straight damage boost for sword and spear, would like to see some improvements like they did with torch and GS but its good for any 1h sword based build.
30 Right-Hand Strength: Critical-hit chance with one-handed weapons is increased by 15%. – Amazing damage boost for any 1h weapons. This trait is also great for helping proc our on crit traits in honor, and also any on crit food or sigils we have.
30 Perfect Inscriptions: Signet passive effects are improved. Signet passives are increased 20% except for resolve, which goes from 1 condition every 10 seconds to 2. Pretty good if your going to be using any signets with 2 hand weapons. I do think this could use a buff to 50% though, as you are only looking at 36 extra points worth of stats per signet, and 2% less damage from judgement.
What I feel should be done with Radiance: Add some types of condition damage to the trait line. Currently the 300 extra condition damage is fairly wasted due to the complete lack of damaging conditions we have. I suggested moving “A fire inside” to merge with zeal traits, leaving an empty trait slot open. I would suggest making a master trait called “Punish the wicked – Critical hits have a chance to cause torment.” (once again, don’t feel like really getting into numbers at this point) This would give us a viable chance at a condition build, and also help against the Kiting classes. Also, as mentioned, remove shimmering Defense and replace it with shattered Aegis, giving more condition damage. Overall though, the rest of the traits work well with each other and are pretty true to the current look of the trait line.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
(edited by Bash.7291)
Zeal: Power +10, Condition Duration +1% per point.
5 Zealot’s Speed: Create a Symbol of Wrath when your health drops below 25% (30-second cooldown). – This minor trait is honestly horrible and needs to be nuked. The whole symbol minors need to each be moved down a tier and a new grandmaster minor needs to be made.
15 Symbolic Exposure: Symbols apply vulnerability to foes. – Fairly decent with the fix to symbol animations and size, but needs to be moved to the 5 point talent, possibly buffed to be 2 stacks of vulnerability compared to 1.
25 Symbolic Power: Increases damage of symbols. – Once again decent, but needs to be moved down a tier to the 15 point talent. The replacement should be a redone Glacial heart, which would apply chill to symbols.
10 Binding Jeopardy: Immobilizing a foe also applies vulnerability to them.- Applies 5 stacks of vulnerability per Immobilization. Fairly good but situational to the hammer and scepter weapons.
10 Fiery Wrath: Increases damage by 10% against burning foes. – Pretty much the only reason people go 10 points into zeal is for this skill. With our amount of burning applying skills this trait can be up fairly often, and is pretty amazing for a 10 point skill.
10 Protector’s Impact: Create a Symbol of Protection when you take falling damage. Take 50% less damage when falling. – Generic falling damage trait, everyone has one, It has to go somewhere.
10 Revenge of the Fallen: Increased damage by 50% while downed. – As with any of the downed state traits, this honestly sucks, and nobody ever grabs them.
10 Shattered Aegis: When an aegis you applied is removed, it burns nearby foes. – applies a 2 second AoE burn when Aegis is broken. A decent trait, but rather random to be the zeal tree. May have been put in to work with fiery wrath, but we have so many other sources of burning that this trait is very lacking.
10 Spirit Weapon Mastery: Spirit weapon skills recharge 20% faster. – good for spirit weapon skills, sadly, the skills themselves are lacking in large group fights as they die quickly.
20 Zealous Blade: Attacks with your greatsword deal an extra 5% damage and heal you. – Good with the recent buff to combine traits, a bit of survivability with added damage on a weapon, makes sense in the zeal tree.
20 Focused Mastery: Focus skills recharge 20% faster. – Not sure why this is in zeal at all, would make more sense to be in radiance due to the blind on ray of judgment, or valor due to the blocking.
20 Scepter Power: Scepter damage is increased by 10%. – Straight forward damage increase. Makes sense in zeal, Mostly because it can synergize with Fiery wrath due to the fast attacks from smite with VoJ, also due to Binding Jeopardy. The main issue I do have with this though, is that Scepter does not have a symbol, and thus gains nothing from the minor traits in zeal. For this I believe that the trait should also turn smite into a symbol.
20 Eternal Spirit: Spirit weapons are not destroyed when commanded. – Once again, another good spirit weapon trait.
30 Wrathful Spirits: Increases spirit weapon damage by 50%. – A pretty hefty boost to spirit weapons But falls into the same issue as all spirit weapon traits.
30 Kindled Zeal: 10% of your power is converted into condition damage. – They did a good job moving zealous blade to master tier and combining it with great sword mastery. Replacing it with this trait was just a horrible Idea. Maybe an increase to 15-20%, oh and maybe another condition for guardians instead of burning might actually make this trait worth it.
How I feel zeal needs to be fixed: The devs really need to find a niche for zeal and move around traits. The offensive based symbol minors are fine, but as I said, change glacial heart into a 25 point zeal trait that adds chill on symbols. Also, combine all of the spirit weapon traits into this tree to keep them under one line. Combine wrathful spirits and A fire inside from radiance into something like “increases spirit weapon damage by 30%, Spirit weapons also cause burning” And combine Eternal Spirit with the virtue line’s Improved spirit weapon duration into something like “Spirit weapons are not destroyed when commanded, spirit weapons also last 25-50% longer (don’t feel like messing around with numbers to balance that)” This would give spirit weapons their own line, instead of having to dump 60 points to maximize them.
Also, Traits like Focus Mastery and Shattered Aegis need to be allocated to new trait lines, as they don’t really seem to fit in with how zeal is apparently meant to work.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
(edited by Bash.7291)
Over the course of my time on these forums, there has been a large amount of discussion regarding traits and how to fix them; mostly regarding traits that seem in very off places, and traits that are just downright horrible and never get used. After getting some positive feed back on my break down of the radiance traits, I have decided to start a thread regarding the break down of every guardian trait, and start a discussion on what really needs to be done, and things that can be changed to help the guardians quality of life.
The first few posts will be my personal opinion on each trait, along with how it works with other traits in the line, and possible changes that each trait line could see. This is all a matter of my opinion, but meant to get some serious discussion going regarding this matter. I ask that those replying in this thread please keep it clean and not start a flame war over conflicting Ideals for traits. This is meant to be a general discussion, and to possibly get the Dev’s to notice and improve on the traits that just don’t make sense and are never used. If you do post an idea in this thread, please make it a logical one, and a balanced one. This thread is not meant to be a “ZOMG BUFF US LOL” thread.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
I think this would be too stong overall. Yes the CC would be nice and all, but Chill is a VERY strong condition, and being able to spam it on someone might be a bit overkill, even more so with weapons like sword/scepter where you can activate it very quickly. Also remember that chill increases skill recharge, which would in turn lower damage output of the enemy, making us even more tanky, which is something we are honestly good with at the moment.
I think the suggestion of move glacial heart to the 25 point zeal trait and making it appply chill to symbols that has been mentioned a few times in other threads is a better idea, as it boosts the idea of area denial, and also helps our symbols more.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Greatsword leap, sword blink and the teleport meditation that burns your foe already gives you better chasing than the average warrior.
Also you can target a bunny that is really far away to use your blink and meditation on if you are running from a zerg.
no…. no no no no no. we have 3 gap closers, 1h sword #2, GS #3, and JI. none of these root your enemy, 1h sword #3 also leaves you trailing behind slightly due to the animation. In the triple med builds, anyone with swiftness is going to leave you behind easily. Warriors get 2 on GS (#3 and #5) 1h sword with #2, Bulls charge, and also a the elite signet which gives 30 seconds of swiftness, on top of a trait that makes any movement ability break immobilize, which is pretty much one of our only CC options, which warriors also have a LARGE amount of. Please, never ever compare guardian mobility to warrior mobility.
Also, we are the ONLY class that has to require critters to even try to escape, which is kind of lame, HOWEVER, we are also the class that is meant to get into fights and stay there (according to ANET) so in reality this isn’t an issue. The issue is our lack of ability to keep most classes near us due to a lack of CC.
GS and Sword is not a good combo. Scepter/Mace is miles better and leaves you with nothing.
…. Gs/sword is the standard meditation build… running mace in WvW and expecting it to be good outside of zergs is a huge mistake in the terms of knowing what weapon is meant for what. Scepter is extremely good for meditation builds as well, and does help keep damage on people from a range. Also as I stated to turbo, Guardians are meant to be a “get in and stay in” class, not an escape artist, so arguing for escape mechanics is rather moot. Arguing for CC is the general idea for guardians.
Our best builds for 1v1s or small group play mostly use the one handed weapons and triple meditations which offer no swiftness, no gap makers and little no gap closers.
Anet have done a pretty good job of the guardian for spvp, pve and blobbing but we are currently THE WORST class for roaming/havok.
As far as overall guardian mobility, you are doing the same thing I did a while back, only looked at gap closers and not the overall picture. Mobility is actually 3 things rolled together, Movement abilities (gap closers) movement speed (swiftness/signets) and snare removal. I have honestly found that running SY and Retreat with pure of voice and condition duration reduction runes/food has greatly increased my mobility compared to the standard triple med build. You keep snares off yourself, give yourself ton of swiftness, and also can still use the gap closers from sword/GS, or you can also try running hammer, which has a ton of CC, which helps as well.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Reported for a sticky, Was thinking of starting one when I saw that healing skill question for the 15th time earlier. Good job at beating me to it lol.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
I’m not trying to be a kitten, I’m trying to explain to you that right now I can burst down certain professions/specs within 2 seconds and there is no way they can add to that without Guardians being broken. I’m also trying to explain to you that they can’t add another viable build option without increasing the strength I already have as a guardian.
I am sorry, but the spec/builds that do things like that are gimmick specs at best. And only work against other glass cannon specs when jumping them. Adding a condition based spec is NOT going to hurt guardian if done correctly, and at worse case will just shift our base damage towards conditions, which honestly as a guardian, the class with the least amount of CC abilities, is good, as it allows us to keep some sort of damage on kiting classes.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
That is why I was suggesting a “on crit” effect to give guardians the same stat synergy with precision and condition damage that other classes have.
It could be a 60% chance on crit to cause 3 seconds of torment.
Numbers I’m sure can be adjusted to be more optimal but not OP. Would it be a major or a minor trait? Maybe remove Spirit weapons cause burning and replace it with this new conditions on crit trait.
Stop saying my ideas before i get to post my giant trait thread of doom…
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Something that is universal with all profession trait lines is that Power is always combined with Condition Duration. I don’t know why….
That said, I don’t think they would move condition damage into power any time soon.
I think condition damage and toughness would be a good combination, since burning requires time to do damage, and toughness prolongs time. Also down the valor line you have might and burn on block….while we don’t have a frequent enough rate of blocking to make it the core of a build, that synergy works well.
At that rate crit damage could move up to precision and complete that P/Prc/CritD trinity…but they moved crit damage away from precision for a reason, so I don’t think they would be keen on that move either.
Condition damage could also go with healing power, since if we go down the honor tree we may be lacking in power and precision, which would give us some defensive damage via retaliation and burning.
Just some thoughts as we play “dev”.
Crit damage to zeal to buff it as THE physical damage line, condition damage to valor, since as you stated, takes time to do damage, condition duration to radiance, as I mentioned before. Checkmate.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
If your sole goal is to accumulate as much damage as possible, with no regard for your own survivability, you are correct. However, that’s not exactly a great way to be real successful in this game. Between armor, runes, consumables, and stacks you can play with your stats enough to not have to place too much of an emphasis on your trait lines to get your stats to a target number. Now while they certainly do help, you’re better off suited at picking traits that benefit you as a whole, rather than taking a narrow-minded focus at a particular stat or area of focus.
As has been mentioned several times already, the problem with Radiance and Zeal is that most of the traits are fairly average, and for some reason is tied to condition damage and duration. Since the Guardian can’t really toss out a ton of conditions, it’s rather pointless to focus on either stat, and is essentially a wasted one. Yes, 100 power is nice, but I’d rather have 100 toughness and 10% critical damage. Not only that, but I’d rather have those traits instead of doing 10% damage to burning foes. I understand the fact that through those lines you could accumulate more damage, but it’s not much damage, and it’s far less useful than most damage lines for classes, and is especially inferior to our own defensive lines.
You’re more than welcome to go heavy into Radiance and Zeal, but where does the defense come from? If we’re talking PvE, it doesn’t matter, because it’s all mindless easy junk anyways, but in PvP, you’re really going to suffer from taking very average traits over much more useful ones like AH and Pure of Voice. I’d rather go heavy into Honor and Valor with Beserker gear than to go heavy into Radiance and Zeal, and having to rely on my gear for survivability. It’s a blatantly easy decision for me. I can get enough damage from my gear, so I think I’ll take traits that are actually useful instead of praying that no one is capable of cleansing my mighty 5 seconds of burning.
See, the issue is that you can still go say, 30 into radiance, 10 into zeal (BTW never ever think that someone is going full zeal the traits are broken we know), and you still have 30 points to put into whatever you want. You act like you lose out on things like AH or pure of voice just because you put points into other trees. Also, there is no difference between gearing for damage and and getting the defensive trait bonuses and gearing for defense and grabbing the offensive trait bonuses. (the ONLY exception is that stupid crit damage from Valor, as 1:10 point ratio is the best you can get outside of jewels.)
Overall, the difference is really just that you give up some defensive traits for other offensive traits, or vice versa. Which is the same old risk/reward we always have, but it is foolish to assume that someone that has traits into radiance/zeal lose all of their defensive capabilities, as there are honestly plenty to get enough with guardian.
Also, regarding condition duration, it is actually a very good stat to pick up on a guardian, since every one of our conditions are time based. Immobilize, burning, blind, and vulnerability all benefit greatly from duration. Also, Radiant power becomes even stronger due to better up time. As far as praying someone doesn’t cleanse burning for fiery wrath, we have multiple sources such as torch #4, VoJ procs, VoJ activation, Judges Intervention, Purging flames, Defender’s flame, shattered aegis. If you want it is very easy to keep burning on a target, and have constant sources of reapplication. And the best part is, that you only need 1-2 of those to keep it constant. With my current build, torch #4 and VoJ are enough to keep it on a significant amount of time.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Thank you for the complements on that write up guys. I think I am actually going to go through and do a list like that for each trait line, with the pros and cons of each trait, and start a serious thread to discus what might be some good ideas to fix our “dead” traits, and also what steps could be taken to make trait lines work better towards a set goal (such as radiance how it is currently based towards 1h Critical builds, or signet builds.)
As far as conditions go….I would love to see torment on sword, as it would help deal with some of the “escape artists” classes, considering we are pretty much a full melee class.
Something else that I thought of, which would honestly make a bit of sense looking at radiance traits. Why isn’t condition damage switched with zeal’s condition duration? We only have 2 actual traits that help cause any conditions in radiance. One of them is absolutely horrible no matter what build. And the other is generally only useful in Spvp, and really needs a new trait line home anyways. However we have several traits that already would apply conditions that would make more sense with extra duration. (blind on VoJ, Vuln on blind, Radiant power, Combining with torch to make burn duration extremely viable). It is just really weird that they put power/condition duration together on every single class.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
I do not think that the issue is that radiance is actually a bad trait line, the issue is with how guardians work as a whole. Condition damage has to be somewhere, and half the time it is with precision. The issue is, we only have one damaging condition. Lets look at the full picture though.
5: Justice is Blind: When activating Virtue of Justice, nearby foes are blinded. Very good defensively, also works very well with blind exposure
15: Renewed Justice: Virtue of Justice is renewed when you kill a foe. Very good for PvE, decent for pvp if your getting a good amount of kills. Works well with blind exposure and the 5 point virtue trait
25: Radiant Power: Deal more damage to foes inflicted with conditions. 10% extra damage whenever any condition is on an enemy. so pretty much 10% free damage.
10 Healer’s Retribution: Gain 3 seconds of retaliation when using a heal skill. This one is junk except with the healing breeze bug, also does not make sense in a crit/condition based build, Fury for 5-10 second would make more sense.
10 Signet Mastery: Signets recharge 20% faster. pretty good, brings our biggest heal to 32 seconds, also helps our CC with 2 signets
10 Shimmering Defense: Burn nearby foes when your health reaches 25% (60-second cooldown). This one is complete junk and needs an overhaul. Would like to see something like “Burns 3 conditions from you when your health reaches 25%” or something.
10 Inner Fire: When you are set on fire, you gain fury. Situational but VERY strong. In pve it is lackluster, PvP/WvW it is almost free perma fury with the condition heavy meta.
10 Searing Flames: When you apply burning to an [sic] foe, remove a boon. This effect can only trigger once every 20 seconds. Like the Idea, CD is stupid though. 5 Seconds would most likely be a good idea, just because we have alot of issues with bunkers simply because we have no condition damage variant, and have to suffer breaking through buffs.
10 Blind Exposure: Applying blind also applies 3 stacks of vulnerability (10 seconds). Awesome trait, synergy with sword/focus/GS/VoJ and also with Radiant power due to the length of the duration.
20 Radiant Fire: Torch skills recharge 20% faster. All burning durations are increased by 20%. Pretty decent after the buff, the big bonus is not that it gives extra burning ticks on skills, but more that it keeps fiery wrath from zeal active 20% longer.
20 A Fire Inside: Spirit weapons cause burning. Needs to be moved to a different tree. I still cant understand why they threw some random spirit weapon traits in random trees.
20 Inscribed Removal: Using a signet cures a condition on you. Pretty decent when using a signet based build, but somewhat situational as only 2 of our 4 signets are defensive in use. But in the condition heavy meta, any condition removal is good.
20 Powerful Blades: Sword and spear damage is increased by 5%. straight damage boost for sword and spear, would like to see some improvements like they did with torch and GS but its good for any 1h sword based build.
30 Right-Hand Strength: Critical-hit chance with one-handed weapons is increased by 15%. Amazing damage boost for any 1h weapons. This trait is also great for helping proc our on crit traits in honor, and also any on crit food or sigils we have.
30 Perfect Inscriptions: Signet passive effects are improved. Signet passives are increased 20% except for resolve, which goes from 1 condition every 10 seconds to 2. Pretty good if your going to be using any signets with 2 hand weapons. I do think this could use a buff to 50% though, as you are only looking at 36 extra points worth of stats per signet, and 2% less damage from judgement.
So we have 3 great minor traits, 3/6 good adept traits 3/4 good master traits (powerful blades really needs something extra added to it imo) and 1.5/2 good Grandmaster traits (giving signet mastery .5 just due to how nice 2 conditions every 10 seconds is.)
I think the issue that people have is that Radiance is situational to your build, in that it focuses on 1h weapons and signets where as honor and valor, are pretty fluid with almost any build and weapon set. I honestly have no issue with that as it makes sense to me at least. The issue with condition damage being a stat to it, is just that there wasn’t any other place to put it, but that is also a flaw with the fact that we only have burning as a condition. Even looking at the traits, only simmering defense, and radiant fire are the only traits that actually cause/effect damaging conditions in the first place, where as any of the other ones are based on non damaging conditions, or are giving you modifiers due to conditions on a target.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
(edited by Bash.7291)
Zeal and Radiance are mostly terrible, and I doubt many would argue against that. Luckily, our other three lines are amazing, so just take them for the traits, and use more offensive gear to balance things out. Pretty simple solution, really.
Except it really is not. You are still not getting the damage you would get by going into honor and valor that you would going into zeal and radiance. 100 power + 10% damage to burning foes is going to give you more of a damage boost than you are ever going to get in the honor tree for example.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
It is impossible to really gauge that, since they are a direct relation to damage. The more power you have, the more damage that 10% extra is going to do. The real thing you have to compare is the uptime of the damage %, and if it will be worth it to go for a more direct damage trait than a situation based one.
Things like radiant power, and elusive power are pretty easy to keep up. Fiery wrath is based on how often something is going to be burning, so it really depends on your build, or if you run with someone who burns alot. Unscathed contender (20% with aegis up) is extremely situational, and is the biggest risk/reward when it comes to our damage modifiers.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Hello again all. Got sick of my current build again and was looking into making a new roaming build for myself and was looking for some opinions on my current Idea.
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|b.1g.h17.f.1g.h1|2.1g.h17|1n.7x.1c.7x.1n.7x.1c.7x.1n.7x.1c.7x|4v.0.2v.0.1i.61.1i.61.1i.61.1c.61|a2.u42b.0.u28b.0|55.1|v.18.19.17.1i|e
(add 250 power for bloodlust stacks)
This is what I am currently coming up with, Condition removal comes from signet passive and 2 per shout use. It has a fair amount of armor/health and I also went with omnom pies for extra sustain. I chose scepter/torch as the biggest issues I ever have with roaming are the kiting classes (engineer, ele, actually killing thieves) And torch will help with keeping fiery wrath active. I have also been thinking of switching out signet CD for the torch trait to increase up time as well. Hammer I am up in the air on, as it is a great cc weapon, but i feel it really needs JI to be 100% effective, but just might require me adapting to not having it.
Currently the only ascended pieces I have are the ones limited, so if someone has an idea different than using them, please only use exotics.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
…. Inner fire just needs a tooltip fix, it doesnt need to work with torch #4. And chris GET MORE VIT SON! :P But yeah, the condition heavy meta is really pushing us to a condition removal bunker or die situation. But hey, the burning from every source possible so so nice for my crit chance!
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
So at 300 healing power, you are looking at the difference of 12hps… yeah I would trade that for condition removal any day. Also, this only factors in a base of 300 healing power through traits, for builds that use any more signet easily outstrips prayer. Shelter can also do alot more healing in the forum of blocking the damage you might take, and when fighting multiple foes, can add up to way more than any of the other heals.
Also, you take into effect no trait synergy what so ever that you get from each heal. Shelter with 25 in valor gives you might on block, which can easily stack nicely against multiple enemies and also can be traited for burn on block with just 10 in valor. Signet can be traited for better CD, removes a condition on use, and also boosted to remove 2 conditions every 10 seconds compared to 1. The only trait synergy that prayer has, are the ones they give buffs on healing skill, which also effects every other healing skill.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
The general rule is if it is an auto attack, or of the skill fires multiple projectiles, its is 20%, I believe every other skill is 100%. The only exception I am aware of is that when you take the increased range on longbow skills for warrior, the AA becomes 100%.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Reading back in the thread, I love how some SoR posters are now determined to “kick” JQ out of T2… You guys do realize that there are no more true tiers anymore, and we just have the horrible luck of ending up with each other EVERY FREAKING WEEK, when it is supposed to be partially randomized. So good luck on knocking them down to 4 place, because for some reason, we will still get randomly selected to fight them.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Fist of the heavens! (zomg yes I am stealing from D2)
Elite, consecration.
Skill description: Summons a bolt of force from the heavens, striking foes and stunning them, leaving behind an energized area that aids allies and hampers foes.
Cast time: .5s
Recharge: 160
Initial stun 2s
Deals x Damage on initial hit, and y damage over time to foes in effected area. (obviously numbers would need to be fine tuned.)
Duration: 8s
Combo field: Lighting (!!!!!)
Buffs allies with fury for 1s every 1s while in the field
Buffs allies with vigor for 1s every 1s while in the field
Causes burning to enemies while in the field for 1s every 1s
Causes cripple to enemies while in the field for 1s every 1s.
Also just realized that blasino had close to the same idea, just slightly different mechanics lol.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Zealot’s Judgement
Elite type: Consecration
Skill description: Summon forth a ray of light upon the land Immobilizing and Burning foes. Also summon additional rays that Cripples and Burn foes.
Cast time: 2 seconds
Recharge: 140 seconds
Visual effect(s): The guardian lifts into the air. The area of the initial beam begins to glow, and where the guardian floats, a beam of light bursts forth. This animation takes up the cast time of the spell. Once it ends four additional beams spawn in front, behind, to the left and to the right of the guardian with a .5 second initial animation. Additionally, four more spawn similarity to the first four, and then a final set afterwards.
Numbers:
- The main beam lasts for 7 seconds after the initial animation. The side beams begin to form after the main beam’s animation and each last for 2 seconds each.
- The Radius of the main beam is 100. The side beans are 50.
- The damage, and conditions, tick at the end of each second.
- Main Beam Damage (7x): 1000
- Side Beam Damage (2x): 600
- Immobilize: 1 Second
- Cripple: 1 Second
- Main Beam Burning: 2 Seconds
- Side Beam Burning: 1 Second
nice, something close to what I was thinking, though mine is a bit more basic in terms of design
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Yes, it actually is. I was running knights, but with inner fire, and the fact that burning is spammed so hard now between necros/warriors/eles/well almost everything, I can pretty much keep fury up almost all the time, Also with 1k condition damage our burns do almost 600 damage on top of the dps we have.
Edited the build just as a note. GS leap through purging flames is way too much fun…
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
(edited by Bash.7291)
This is still the class that can teleport 1200 and put someone in a circle they can’t walk out of, right?
/1 second cast time
/stability
/can still dodge out of it
yay buggy wardings! lol
As I said, I think guardians have a good amount of cc/mobility, the issue is that we have to literally string almost everything together to do it, which leaves us with alot of downtime where those skills just are not up, or are flawed and easily escapable.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
hey silven, was wondering what you thought of this build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAR8flUgKD3GSOEfIFhNDAGwqCxDXw1jECxGC-ToAgyCnIMSZkzIjRSjsGtgYbB
have been messing around with it in hotjoin, but well, we all know hotjoin isn’t the real decider between if a build is viable or not. Keep in mind the build doesn’t add the 150 toughness from strength in numbers.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
(edited by Bash.7291)
yeah…. I haven’t used AH in…. like 6 months now? It is ok for zerg vs zerg, but straight up damage mitigation is so much better now. condition reduction runes/food with good dodging and you can live for a rather long time.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
yeah…. no, im happy with my build atm, though honestly im rather sick of t1 anymore. nothing but OMG COMMANDER MUST ZERGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
It’s impossible to hit those two skills at the exact moment they come off cooldown even the tiniest delay means you will lose swiftness uptime. That’s why I said 70%. Even then, you are constantly having to monitor those 2 skills which is a seriously crappy quality of life issue.
Oh no! .25 seconds of not having swiftness!!! The world will end because you failed to keep it exactly 100% up all the time! seriously, if you can keep it up pretty much 99.9999999% of the time, its perma.
.25 seconds every 48s is only 99.5% of the time. So I guess it’s not perma.
And don’t forget, you need to spam the heck out of that stuff because if you aren’t paying attention to the exact cooldown you’re going to get far more than 0.25s of no swiftness. In addition, entering a fight with two of your skills on cooldown to maintain this “permanent” swiftness seems a good way to suck.
Then why does it matter to you so badly if its perma or not? I could care less since trying to get “perma” swiftness is stupid in T1 since its all zerg fights and if you dont have 1+ mins of swiftness from the zerg alone you are doing something wrong. I mean, if you want to argue semantics till your blue in the face go ahead, won’t really do much to ruin my day though. :P
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
At 60% boon duration, staff #3 alone can give you permaswiftness.
True story.
Incorrect.
12.8 swiftness duration, 12 second recharge time with two hand mastery… granted he missed the point about needing THM… but yeah, corrrect.
You forgot about the up to 1s of swiftness you don’t have while waiting for the pulse. Not to mention it’s completely artificial because you need to time it so you not only run over the symbol right when your swiftness runs out but you don’t accidentally run completely through it without getting a pulse.
So no, staff doesn’t give you permanent swiftness even if you have 50000000000% boon duration.
If you lay it down correctly, you don’t have to worry about that considering it pulses the second you put it down. sounds like a L2P issue with laying down the symbol.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
It’s impossible to hit those two skills at the exact moment they come off cooldown even the tiniest delay means you will lose swiftness uptime. That’s why I said 70%. Even then, you are constantly having to monitor those 2 skills which is a seriously crappy quality of life issue.
Oh no! .25 seconds of not having swiftness!!! The world will end because you failed to keep it exactly 100% up all the time! seriously, if you can keep it up pretty much 99.9999999% of the time, its perma.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
At 60% boon duration, staff #3 alone can give you permaswiftness.
True story.
Incorrect.
12.8 swiftness duration, 12 second recharge time with two hand mastery… granted he missed the point about needing THM… but yeah, corrrect.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
I would give my name for the build but anet would censor it… :/
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
/pats JQ on the head… there boy, enjoy your scraps
I know, it is about time they finally came over to help us. Im sure it took all of our secret “pay guilds to transfer” money to finally convince them to attack you. ;P
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
0/0/10/30/30 clerics gear, some soldier mixed in, have fun killing yourselves on retaliation!
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Lol sor and jq 2v1 us every night in ebg na a couple weeks ago to the point that we lost our keep every night and its “omg bg qq so hard, there is no 2v1” the second it happens to SoR the cries start. 2v1s happen, its frustrating as hell when it is multiple times in a match, but if your going to trash a server for complaining about it before, how about you follow your own words and not kitten about it.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
Other than this week, which has been your people not showing up, you guys normally tick around 150-200, nothing personal but that is not PvDoor numbers from our side. You guys had one bad week and all of a sudden its “WE ARE SO OUTNUMBERED IN SEA”
I was being generous when I said we can tick from 100-200 and so were you with your 150-200. 100-120 ppt would be a good showing with sub 100 just as likely if not more so. I have been able to play during the day when I’m “working from home” so I’ve experienced this myself.
My screenshot above isn’t a rare occurrence. SOR players who regularly play this time of the day probably suffer from some form of PTSD from all the abuse they take.
I just looked at last week’s point ticks, almost every oceanic time you guys were ticking between 150-200. there are obviously a few instances where it drops down below for one tick, but never were you guys in double digits, and actually there were points where you guys were pushing 250 points at the end of the week. Not to say that you guys have less numbers than us in sea/oceanic, because you do, but it is not as bad as the people in the thread are making it out to be. It was just a week of people not showing up.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]