Guild Wars 2

Like I said before, Mesmers are weak in the condition meta, but as the meta shifts towards something more balanced their inherit weakness to conditions won’t be such a big issue.

All right time for a quick analysis.

It seems that the only 2 classes that are considered to not be useful in some way are Mesmer and Ele. I think as Warrior continues to gain prominence it will reduce the number of condition users on a team to one. This will not only open a slot for Mesmer but it also means that there will be much fewer conditions being thrown around. I don’t feel any major buffs are really needed, Mesmers still have some crazy good builds it’s just that the Condi Meta made them obsolete.

As for Ele, well they were clearly overnerfed. The best thing I feel for them would be giving them the ability to mid Bunker as well as a Guardian. Another role could also be roaming DPS.

Honestly, the game’s balance isn’t all that terrible atm. One class has a chance to become strong again because their main counter is being squashed by the class they counter and the other class needs some buffs or just a toning back of previous nerfs.

…you basically took my thread and split it up into 2. The reason my suggestions make sense is because they are combined together.

This was fixed rather quickly, bugs happen.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

kitten conquest..

I’d play a version of conquest that was kitten v kitten.

Boy, I’m starting to become like a certain other forum poster with how much I’ve been writing recently. I guess I’m just really into constructive discussion recently. The surge in Dev posts has encouraged me to write down my thoughts more than normal.

Anyways, What I would like to propose is something that has been brought up multiple times before but never really got anywhere, public beta testing. From a normal player’s view it seems to me that ANet want’s to take things slow and steady, and that’s not a bad thing. The problem is, those of us who’s primary interest in this game is PvP can get rather restless when we don’t receive consistent updates.

Public beta testing, to me at least, would seem like a great way to help gather more date for possible changes. In addition, it would also give us players the sense that PvP is indeed being actively worked on. Many competitive games have a Beta Client that the Devs can use to test possible changes to the game. Chances are someone will find any game breaking builds or bugs, things that may not show up if you are only doing testing with a small group.

There may be a lot of negativity on the forums, but honestly that’s pretty much every forum out there. There are also plenty of us who just want this game to be our competitive fix like GW1 was.

P.S. Hope the title doesn’t sound snooty or anything, my intent was for the tone to be as respectful as possible but that’s hard to do given the space allowed for titles.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i write up short posts about 4 pips control points, everyone shoots me down.

this guy comes in with a tl; dr post suddenly everyone agrees with him?

I was trying to stay positive but again, if implemented in the next couple years, the only likely result would be thieves, mesmers, rangers, and eles feeling very left out. Even the other professions would lose all their roaming/pointcontrol builds. The game’s not exactly in a state where it can wipe out half of the working builds just because people perceive conquest to favor bunkers (you know, the kind of build each team very rarely takes more than one of).

I feel any changes need to be publicly beta tested in the future. Having tons of different players of different skill levels poking and prodding at changes gives them a lot more data to look at. It also gives the PvP crowd a feeling that there are indeed changes in the works.

Look at how often we get responses pertaining to PvP that say “working on” or “talking about.” I really want to believe them, but actually showing us what they’re working on would go a long way I think. Maybe have a beta client that just has PvP changes on it if having servers in the main game with possible changes isn’t possible.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i write up short posts about 4 pips control points, everyone shoots me down.

this guy comes in with a tl; dr post suddenly everyone agrees with him?

I’m just that loveable? Also i write VL; SR: Very long; Still Read.

In all seriousness though, presentation is sadly as important if not more important than the actual content. I think that the content should be the most important thing, but if you get as detailed as I like to it’s a lot harder to argue because I try to back up my reasoning as much as possible.

Knote.2904:

The game also needs to slow down a bit.

Can’t say you’re wrong, I liked GW1’s more deliberate pace although it was still fast when it came to interrupts and spikes. The problem is how would you change it? It would probably need massive sweeping changes like increasing the cast time of many skills.

Bhawb.7408:

I’m sorry, but I find nothing enjoyable about casually walking around in WvW and then getting 2/3rds of my HP dropped from an invisible thief who proceeds to run away and CnDs on a bunny.

WvW is even less balanced than PvP, and it always will be.

I don’t really think WvW balance is all that important because in the end you’ll always need a group in order to take important objectives. I never understood the dislike for “zergs,” I think large armies of players clashing is pretty darn cool. So long as something isn’t game breakingly broken even if you say have a train of Hammer Warriors that doesn’t make them unbeatable, superior tactical play while having some other classes built to counter the CC can still win.

I get tired of people getting mad when they lose 1v1 in a game type designed around groups of people. Same holds true for PvP, even if a build is strong 1v1 that doesn’t make it OP if it only preforms OK in team fights. Even the Hammer/Longbow build that people are calling OP now has some very obvious limitations, lack of mobility being one of the bigger ones.

I think Mesmer will become a big player again due to Warriors becoming more popular which means the condition meta is becoming less attractive. Considering how well a Mesmer can counter a Warrior them being strong is actually a good thing for them.

Only Ele seems to be truly lacking, I think they need to be able to become bunkers to the point where either a Ele or a Guardian would be a strong choice. Pretty much every class would then have some sort of role to play and from then on only shaving should need to be done in theory.

Figures, I make a thread about class tiers which will eventually degrade into “X class is OP Y class is UP,” but the thread I put a lot of thought and effort into gets largely ignored. Game forum communities in general are so darn negative.

At least the responses I got were quality, better than what I normally seem to attract.

Allie Murdock.8152:

The balance in PvE vs PvP will always be different, but there are certain tools that will help make the swap less jarring once they are complete. What I’m talking about is templates. If you played GW, they had templates that you could create and share with friends both in the game and outside of the game.

These templates would save all of your characters stats (armor, weapons, traits, skills) so that you could click a button and everything would swap over. This is something we would like to do in GW2 to help players swap between different areas of the game.

It would be fantastic to be able to post templates into the forums in a visual format so you could post builds without the use of a 3rd party site. Even cooler would be the ability to save a build posted on the forum and being able to open the game and have that template be there. I don’t know if that’s technically possible but it would be the best thing in forum history for me.

NevirSayDie.6235:

BurrTheKing.8571:

ANet wants this to be an Esport, so I think encouraging teamfights isn’t terrible because it makes it a lot easier to commentate when all the action is in one spot. They’ve also toned down particle effects so things are a bit easier to see now as well, not to mention the shaves petting zoos have received and Warrior’s rise in prominence.

Right, I mean it could work. It would just be a very different game than we have today, and about half of the professions would need major buffs or nerfs to adjust for the removal of sidepoint control and roamer roles. If you think about it, there are currently four roles: teamfight bunker, teamfight dps (usually condi right now), roamer, and sidepoint control (e.g. Teldo). Making everything one big teamfight would make teamfights interesting, but it would cut the number of roles/builds in half and we’d see a whole lot of war/guard/necro until massive balance changes evened things out.

A better way is perhaps to introduce a similar mechanic on a new map without fundamentally changing the way conquest works and eliminating so many viable playstyles—for example, a linear tug-of-war map where you have to capture points in order. I feel there would be a large backlash if the current maps were suddenly changed in a way that made a lot of currently viable builds outdated.

Oh I wasn’t suggestion overhauling every map, just have variants so it is just a different way to play conquest. I’m not sure how the balance would have to be changed, we need “beta servers” that are running new maps/balance changes so they can do mass testing.

ANet wants this to be an Esport, so I think encouraging teamfights isn’t terrible because it makes it a lot easier to commentate when all the action is in one spot. They’ve also toned down particle effects so things are a bit easier to see now as well, not to mention the shaves petting zoos have received and Warrior’s rise in prominence.

I agree that the secondary objectives need to be changed. Some of them are good ideas implemented poorly. Forest is certainly the worst one of the bunch. The Lord also does indeed need enough protection that it requires a team effort to be taken out. The Gates also need the same treatment so 1 guy can’t break down the gate and leave it ready for a zerg at the end of the match.

For the linear conquest I meant that the mechanics are close enough that I feel all that needs to happen is the addition of a locking mechanic and having actual linear maps. Same concept of holding points but the battle will be taking place in one area for the most part. Would also make Portal really desirable.

Also, one post like yours makes writing out this short essay worthwhile.

As someone who frequently plays games like Battlefield 3, I’m actually a fan of conquest game modes. That being said I feel that the way GW2 does conquest isn’t the most enjoyable thing to play at times. This tends to stem from a few mechanics that if tweaked could server to make the game more interesting in addition to it help drive the meta in a different direction.

The Size of the Points
The first major problem I have with conquest in GW2 is the size of the capture points. They are so miniscule that it’s no wonder that AoE is so prevalent. Now, I’m not saying every capture point needs to be the size of Graveyard but making them fit the landscape around them would lead to much more interesting combat situation and would keep AoE useful but not the dominate force that it currently is. Of course another change would need to be enacted in order for the increase in size to work.

Capture Rate Based on Number of Players
In order to avoid players dodge, evading, or blocking their way around a capture point and indefinitely delaying a capture another mechanic from Battlefield can be borrowed. The capture rate of points should not be stopped by the presence of an enemy; it should merely slow it. If there is 2 of blue and one of red on a point then blue should eventually capture the point. This means a single Bunker cannot hold off multiple foes for a long duration and deny the capture. Bunkers will still be useful for keeping the point for their team while backup arrives. This will mean that in high level play teams will have to better manage where they send their players. If they commit too many onto one point it may come at the cost of losing 2 others, or the loss of the side objective.

Side Objectives, a Good Idea in Need of Improvement
While of the subject of side objectives I have to say these are actually a good idea, it’s just that some are better designed than others. I’m not the biggest fan of Trollhamm…I mean Skyhammer, but the fact that the side objective can be such a deciding factor is something that I find to be a great idea. Temple also has a vital side objective in the form of Tranquility, but the other side objectives on that map are not nearly as important. Honestly, all of the side objectives can drastically effect who wins and loses which is PvP’s strongest feature in my opinion.

Variants of the Current Conquest
Another topic I’d like to point out is that if you want to focus on conquest as your primary game type that’s fine, but there is more than one way to do it. I don’t play a ton of Team Fortress 2, but one thing it does well is the linear Control Point game mode. This mode has the same concept of holding areas, but because the map is linear and the fact that you must capture the the nearest point to be able to move on to the next means you get more team play and focused engagements, which is great for shoutcasting as well. Adding a few maps like this into the mix allows for you to get creative with map design, which is another issue that I have with PvP in it’s current state.

More Varied Terrain
One of the best features of WvW is the ability to use the environment to your advantage. However, with the exception of a few of the newer maps PvP doesn’t really allow for this all that much. Trollha….Skyhammer does try to do this but goes a bit overboard. Meanwhile, many of the maps from launch are basically areas of flat ground with nothing on them. What if Graveyard was an actual graveyard that had large broken states and gravestones that could be used for breaking line of sight? Maybe have a point be up on a peak that you can knock people off, just not the the extent of Skyhammer where it instantly kills you. The general symmetrical nature of the maps isn’t bad, but things would be a lot more interesting if there was some environmental hazards that if used strategically could lead to clutch moments and surprise turnarounds.

Closing Thoughts
So there you have it, a few humble suggestions on what would make PvP more enjoyable for me. The unique combat of the game makes this the most visual MMO PvP I have ever played, but the mechanics aren’t quite up to snuff yet. I don’t think having one game type is that bad so long as it gets done right. I really do want to see PvP in this game become as popular as it was in GW1 and seeing it become a big esport wouldn’t be that bad either.

P.S. If you are going to respond, and please do, I suggest you read the whole thing as taking some parts on their own will detract from the overall picture.

OK, let’s try and do this again…

Mods, please-please-please refrain from merging this topic. The reason I have started this is because the original poster of the first thread has gone on hiatus so having a new post allows me to make updates.

I’m keeping my list out of this, however if I get the time I’ll try and average out the (reasonable) lists we get here and try to get an idea of what the forum population’s view of the current games balance is.

Also, please try to take a few minutes to justify your reasoning and remain as objective as possible. Obviously everyone will have bias based on what we play but use facts to explain your view, and be sure to check what you are saying is accurate.

Tier List Key:
S = Superior (Highest Tier)
A = Average (All classes should strive to be here)
B = Below Average
C =

The – (Negative) sign denotes that the class may fall into a lower Tier.
The + (Positive) sign denotes that the class may get bumped to a higher Tier.
The = (Equal) sign denotes that the class is equivalent to other classes with = in the Tier.

EDIT: Just a suggestion when evaluating a class, think about whether the class is strong or weak or easy or hard to play because of it’s design, or if it’s in its current state because of the Meta.

For example the Mesmer isn’t seeing much play atm, but is it because the class is weak, or is it because it’s biggest weakness, conditions, is so popular?

Or is Warrior really as strong as many view it to be because it was overbuffed, or is the prevalence of condition builds that bring few counters to CC and the absence of their natural enemies like Mesmers that make them feel so strong?

UPDATE: It seems like the only consistent analysis is that Ele is the worst PvP class atm.

Ok, I agree with Writetyper that we need to let this thread die down and I can make another and hopefully it won’t get merged.

So….I got merged with the reason “same issue.”

Not sure I understand.

Defektive is taking a break from the game so I’m posting a new version of his tier list thread. Same structure as before for consistency:

Tier List Key:
S = Superior (Highest Tier)
A = Average (All classes should strive to be here)
B = Below Average
C =

The – (Negative) sign denotes that the class may fall into a lower Tier.
The + (Positive) sign denotes that the class may get bumped to a higher Tier.
The = (Equal) sign denotes that the class is equivalent to other classes with = in the Tier.

Feel free to justify your reasoning, but let’s try and keep things constructive and civil!

Hammer is one of the hardest weapons in the game, I’d consider it the superior team fighter. That being said Skullcracker is still good for getting back and forth quickly. The build apt posted is a build for a Power Meta. It has NO condition removal to speak of, and even uses Healing Signet with Berserker gear which makes no sense.

Say what you will about the builds I’ve posted, but they’ve been proven effective in this meta. Running a bad build won’t make you better.

I’ll go ahead and start it, I’m on these forums what feels like all the time anyways :P.

So, just totally ignore Sami…if you could understand what they wrote in the first place.

This build will take some getting used to, Hammer can take some time to master:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQJASTjkOxupQyQMxBE0DNsK4iTBlQ9wO2w4A-ToAA1CnICSFkLITQygsBNQYJC

The other is the Skullcracker:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNApeRjkOxupQyQMxBEkCsoKOKUCmQ9wO2w4A-TsAA1CnICSFkLITQygsBNQYJyECA

It’s a good roamer because of the mobility GS gives but has much weaker team support with no Combustive shot or Earthshaker.

Both of these can be modified for me damage with Zerker ammys but honestly I think running tougher is better most of the time. Not to mention with might stacking you’re DPS still won’t be that bad.

There are some condi builds but they’re only strong 1v1 and not too useful in team fights.

Mesmers can be the hard counter to Stun Warrior, so hopefully after conditions get shaved there will be an opening in teams that a Mesmer can fill. Mesmers have so many melee counters built into their weapon mechanics that if they were also able to trait for condi removal while using weapons like staff to avoid melee, they would become unstoppable.

Kind of like how Mesmer is Warriors natural enemy I suppose the idea was that Mesmers natural foe should be Condis. Of course that meant that when they became the Meta Mesmers got phased out.

In a perfect world conditions would remain viable, so Stun Warriors will be used to counter them, which means a Mesmer/Thief will be brought to counter the Warrior. You would have a loop and it would come down to who does their role best and has the best communication. Over time roles could be expanded, Ele needs to maybe get a bunker build on par with Guardian, then the last slot would be whatever the team wants. No class left out in the cold because they can all have a purpose.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/PvP-Tougher-Varient-of-Anas-Tarcis-Build/first#post2764987

That’s my tough version and includes a link to the original thread.

Valdemas.4960:

Just wait till the rest of the classes get wind of this. I’m salivating just thinking of this.

Granted the good old skull crack with sigil got a 0,55 sec nerf, but hey, you can’t have them all.

I’m not even really too choked up about the sigil “nerf” considering it’s more like a bug fix they put off for a year. Although, people always slightly exaggerated how much it affected Skull Crack – it makes it more like 3.75 seconds of stun not a full 4.

Rednik.3809:

Honestly, this is minor change for hammer. You usually avoid using hammer 4, because you don’t want to screw aoe nuke for all your team.

This will allow you to use it as an OPENER! You’ll be able to go Staggering Blow → Earthshaker → Fierce Blow. It’ll probably make landing a combo much easier if true.

wildfang.9670:

warriors in a pretty good state atm even with the two weapons you listed.
rifle volley amazing dps and if traited with crackshot pierces doing a form of aoe damage.

kill shot does wicked damage although it takes some time in that regarud i’ts a little like 100 blades.

aimed shot plus leg specialist puts a 1 second immobile on you opponent constantly plus the mentioned cripple making it great for control useful against kiters and delaying people approaching you.

riflebut can be used as a interrupt is a knockback and can send you foe back to square one if they are not careful. (distracting strikes will add 4 confusion to a interrupt) this skill has only a 15 second cd can be very useful to get some breathing room.

warhorn great mobility can turn conditions into booms as well as apply aoe weakness and a blast finsher. (interesting note warhorn and hammer = perm weakness)

You’re really overstating the usefulness of Rifle, there’s a reason nobody uses it in any serious PvP. Sure for Hotjoin it can be good for a laugh but for SoloQ or TPvP you’ll just be screwing your team over by bringing it as it is now.

As for Warhorn if the leaked notes are true the trait Quick Breathing is getting moved into the 10 point slot in which case yes, it’ll be fine. Part of the problem was the hefty investment which may now be negated.

Steelo.4597:

uhm your sword / horn / longbow build uses an axe trait! i see you are set for the soldier runes… but with warhorn and cleansing ire you have plenty of condition removal, and not just one condition only, that is useless (you easily get up to 6 from a proper condi build, and almost instantly).. i would not encourage you to use those for condi removal when you run warhorn and have access to cleansing ire! well.. of course run them if you are in the guild zerg – but definately not for solo / roaming and probably not for tpvp either.

That trait error was a simple misclick, fixed now. Also, the 2 Shot builds do not use Cleansing Ire, they use Last Stand. While the build has access to a 20 second CD stun break a form of Stability is needed to be viable, hence the Soldier Runes. The removal is also not only for you but for your whole team as well. You’ll be able to buff, remove conditions, and heal them frequently.

I’m already considering possibilities with heal shouts/horn. These are all really rough drafts however. Replace Empower Allies with Quick Breathing.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQRBJdxG2IpT1byjzDTkABpQDziTBlQVAOSPID0INA-TwAgzCmIySllLLTWyssZNQYRw+jZDA

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNBMhNak0p6N5x5hJOggUohZhSBcshpHkBakGA-TsAg2CrIySllLLTWyssZNIY9xsBA

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQRBHdxG2IoTsbKkMETkAw8wogK6UQJlC4cLVgMA-TwAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFNsYRwGiJCA

That last one might of actually been a bit viable before with just Restorative and Mending but with Quick Breathing it may be really interesting. You may not even need Mending and Restorative and Quick Breathing may be enough. If the Meta goes to power then we’ll take Endure Pain instead of Zerker Stance.

You did used to be able to hit with the full 100b as far as I remember, Bulls was a 2 second KD and 100b is a 3.5 second channel and Frenzy increased it by 100%. That combo may have been avoidable but it also had range, something Skull Crack lacks at only 130. Staying mobile is yet another method of reducing the number of times you get stunned. You can pull a 180 when they get close and it’ll miss because you’ll be behind them. The cast is also not instant, fast, but not instant.

Steelo.4597:

from 90% of the roaming and smallscale warriors running skull crack / 100b.. must feel great, especially killing people with 3 buttons! it probably means stepping up their game for people who ran only bullsrush-100b before! but most dont get the build right so they are only half as dangerous, no cavalier gear and sometimes even wrong traits / utilities…. on the other hand meeting the proper build and gear feels like running into a brick wall.. with spikes! that build is completely out of control in WvW… just like the perma stealthing thieves or perplexity engis… crazy stuff, Anet only cares about balance in spvp sadly.

Saying that the Skullcracker build is only 3 buttons is vastly understating how the build works. If you bring a stunbreaker with stability (you should) it becomes a matter of properly using your break/stability and during that time where the Warrior can’t do any good damage can you use that chance to take the initiative. I see players constantly either not take any form of stun break or stability, or if they do they pop it when I hit with Shield Bash as opposed to waiting until they get hit by Skull Crack.

Let’s not forget that dodging/blinding/blocking a Skull Crack after using stability also means you’ll probably be able to use the skill again by the time the Warrior can attempt to land it again. Skull Crack does actually have a different animation than other Mace Skills, it’s subtle but noticeable. It’s a perfectly horizontal swing kitten opposed to the diagonal swing of Mace 1. If you see a pause mid autoattack, chances are a Skull Crack is on its way. I’ve fought other Warriors with Mace and we end up missing over half of our Skull Cracks because we can tell when it’s coming. Let’s also not forget that Skull Crack only locks down a single target, which in WvW isn’t all that useful in a big fight unless maybe you get a glassy commander (most of the good ones are built really defensively). As for PvP, it can be great to lock down a high value target to be bursted by the team but you can also just focus the Warrior down and either kill him or force him to peel.

Also, do you realize that before it was not just Bulls Charge + 100b at launch, a little skill called Frenzy was involved. That means 2 utility skills that were on high cooldowns were required, and stun breaking it meant that you had 60 seconds before attempting it again. It was only good against players who couldn’t dodge, didn’t have a stun break, or were caught unawares.

I actually run Hammer more than Mace now because having all of your offensive power being reliant on 2 skills is not all that great against a decent opponent. At least with Hammer + LB I have attacks that allow me to do damage while they are using stability or if I miss Earthshaker, but at the cost of mobility.

Warriors has ironically has gone from being a class with no viable builds to a class that has more viable builds than most. Now, some of these builds aren’t that useful in a condition meta, but seeing as that meta is starting to gradually shift I can see good builds for most of our weapon, with the exception of 2.

Warhorn and Rifle haven’t seen much use in PvP. The Rifle in particular is a very clunky weapon to use. Kill Shot may be decent in WvW for 1 shotting uplevels in blues, and sometimes can even be used to blindside a light armored target but generally it’s just not worth using. I’d like to see Rifle Butt changed to be more like Banish, give the skill a longer CD than it does now and make it incapacitate them just long enough to land a Kill Shot if they don’t stun break (the user should also wield the rifle like a baseball bat). I don’t want to actually change Kill Shot all that much, and if rifle butt had a 25 or so second cooldown it wouldn’t be like you would be able to do the combo that frequently. Having blind not affect it or making it unblockable would help make it more of the “sniper” skill that it seems to be intended to be (because who is really going to take Signet of Might?).

Bleeding shot doesn’t make sense, while it could synergize with Attack of Opportunity, you are investing 25 points into a tree that focuses on condition damage on a weapon with only 1 condition that is affected by it while the rest of the skills are all power based. Crack Shot and Distracting Strikes should switch places, where they are currently neither trait benefits from the stats the tree provides (although Distracting Strikes still probably won’t see use outside of gimmicky WvW builds). It would be better if Bleedshot was renamed and gained either a large damage boost or a moderate damage boost and apply vulnerability.

Aimed Shot is a bit boring, but it can keep cripple up for a long time so it’s not bad; Volley is also fine as it is. Brutal Shot could use a cast time reduction but I like the focus on vulnerability.

As for Warhorn, it’s odd because it’s not bad it’s just hard to find a reason to use it over shield. It has the ability to cleanse movement impairing conditions and when traited it converts a condition into a boon. It also gives a high uptime of vigor and applies weakness. It’s certainly not bad at all for WvW but for PvP it still doesn’t get used. It’s hard to say what would make it see more use. Perhaps giving Charge some sort of minor offensive ability. However that would mean it cleanses, buffs, and does some sort of attack which could be seen as overpowered. If it was something minor like a knockback that deals no damage with a short range it might not be too bad. It’s a tricky one because looking at it it doesn’t seem bad but I still don’t wanna take it.

It would be cool to be able to run a vulnerability focused DPS build like this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNBHhR6E0hogbhQGCmIDAmHGFURKF25WSRZsB-TsAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFNKYVw8DA

Using Cyclone Axe, switching to Rifle and using Brutal Shot then sending them flying with Rifle Butt and following up with “OMM!” and Kill Shot would be a pretty cool spike that it punishing but avoidable. Of course Axe 1 should be changed so that most of its damage isn’t all on the final strike of Triple Chop.

As for other Warrior changes there as still some pretty useless traits such as:
Great Fortitude (all traits like this need to go imo)
Powerful Banners
Vigorous Return
Thrill of the Kill

…and a host of others that could potentially be useful but need changes to be worth bringing. Many Grandmaster traits have 1 that is usually simply better than the other. While I like to keep classes as original as possible it would probably be easiest to modify traits from other classes to replace the useless ones.

So, that’s just me throwing out some ideas. Keep in mind I’m no game balancer so some things might be OP but I tried to keep things in perspective as much as possible. What would you guys like to be said…and don’t say to give us Protection cough.

One final note, if you want to discuss why you feel Warrior is OP take it here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Warrior-Discussion/page/6#post2823913

…and keep out of this thread that is designed to be constructive.

EDIT: The lack if immediate response goes to show that the people here appear to be much more interested in negative discussion about nerfs rather than more positive areas of thought.

EDIT 2: If the “leaked” patch notes are to be believed the trait Quick Breathing is being made an adept trait, if true then it will probably be great for power builds lacking in condi removal.

I really dislike the idea of having to force warriors investing highly into healing power to make Healing Signet useful. Healing Power can make sense to bring on a Guardian or a Ele because they have more traits/skills that actually cause a healing effect. But what does Warrior have? Besides the heal itself only Adrenal Health, a minor perk that for many builds gives little benefit because of how frequently we use our burst skills these days, and Inspiring Battle Standard actually receive any benefit from it.

If the scaling was changed I would probably switch to Healing Surge because giving up so many stats just for my heal to be decent doesn’t seem worthwhile. I would however be OK with it IF AND ONLY IF Banners where changed in such a way that I would consider bringing one. While there are Banner Regen builds that use Healing Signet they are only useful 1v1, and GW2 is not balanced around 1v1. I would never consider bringing a Banner to TPvP as they are now. Maybe if you had the option to wear one on your back and doing so gave you access to another skill they might be useful but as they are now I’d just be screwing my team over by running one.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Hate to tell you this, but this game will never be balanced around 1v1. That’s why there is tpvp and spvp. It’s based on groups, never 1v1.

Having said that, I’m really against hard counter builds all round. It pigeon holds people into a certain play style and build/gear. Soft counter is where it should be at. Immunities should be removed entirely. Zerker stance should be 75%. My skill playing the class and reading others should be the reason why I down a player, not simple one use win skills.

But that requires a huge change to how conditions work and are applied. Condi cleanses should make you immune to the condition removed for 3 seconds, cleanses should be specific eg signet if stamina should remove conditions that bog the class down like chill, immobilise, cripple. Only certain classes should have mass condition cleanse, and even then, it should be a one second skill for everyone in it, not 5 seconds. Should be a decision that requires good coordination.

Soft counter hardly ever end up working well. Rock-Paper-Scissors balance, meaning that everything has some sort of hard counter, ensures that even if something gets overbuffed there’s probably still something in the game that can beakitten To me the idea team setups would be: A condition user like Necro or Ranger (I don’t want them made worthless), a Warrior (another class could be built to do this as well) to hunt the condi user, a Mesmer or Thief to hunt the Warrior, and a Guardian (hopefully someday a Ele) as a Bunker. The last slot would be up to the team, what they pick can decide what the team focuses on and can lead to a variety of strategies. This would make it so that it comes down to who does their job the best and which team has the best communication.

Buffing other classes to fill a role on a team is much healthier than upsetting people by nerfing their class. Zerker Stance is a skill with a brief up time and if you just stay out of their reach for the duration and not waste your skills it’s not that bad. All your changes to how cleanses work would probably require a massive overhaul that I doubt ANet would want to do.

What I do agree with you on is that the game will not, and should not be balanced around 1v1. If your primary form of PvP is team based then balancing around duels doesn’t make any sense.

Pyroatheist.9031:

selan.8354:

ensoriki.5789:

Stability.

mesmer has barly any access to stability.also if u get hit by multiple people and the first stun happens, then u use a stunbraker, but by the time u are free again, u get feared, then u might wanna use a block, but the next cc has already knocked u down. u dont have enough time to react or a way to counter it. it happened quite a lot that i wnted to blink away but the perma cc prevented me through the entire fight. i wasnt even able to use a single attack.
so a immunity to it after being hit sounds pretty reasonable imo

Eh. Mesmers fart stunbreakers and evasion. There’s really no excuse for a mesmer to get stunlocked.

Mesmer is the class that is most resilient to stun lock if built correctly. Same is true of S/X Thieves. Pretty much every class has access to reliable ways of avoiding being stun locked. Of course I already know that someone will say “But CC will eventually overwhelm you.”

They make is sound as though they expect to ALWAYS be able to escape CC and stuns on any build. Builds focusing around CC would be pretty worthless if it was impossible to actually lock somebody down. The key to beating CC if you aren’t a Mesmer or Thief is to use what Stability you have wisely, I always see players using it the instant they get stunned rather than saving it for the more dangerous skills. Go on the offensive while your stability is up and if you have blocks, blinds, or any other sort of countermeasure save them for when you know the CC is coming.

Whenever someone says “CC” they generally mean “Warrior.” CC is one of the few things Warrior does better than any other class and now people are demanding it be nerfed to the ground. If I look at many of the current meta builds, most of them bring hardly any sort of defensive utilities. This is starting to change because of Warriors and even now the condition meta is starting to become a much smaller headache because of it. If CC is going to be the new meta then change your build to account for it.

My greatest worry is not the nerf of Healing Signet or anything like that, it’s that CC gets nerfed back to the point of uselessness. If things shift back to a power meta and our CC/toughness is nerfed, thief will once again look much more attractive to have on your team. CC is the one thing that Warrior does better than any other class (Guardian has different kind of CC from what I’m referring to).

Warriors could probably switch back to GS+LB DPS, but is that better than what a Thief is able to do? CC wasn’t all that viable until Hammer was buffed, I could live without the Mace (Ironic, considering how many views my Mace/Shield + GS build got) but Hammer is my babbeh. I would accept some shaved to Healing Signet and the like but ONLY when the condition Meta is behind us. I want to have faith in ANet but I feel like too many shaves to Warriors will put as back into “lol free kill” territory.

As for RPS balancing, when people say RPS they don’t mean that there’s only 3 option just that everything has some sort of counter. It ensures that if something gets overbuffed there’s still something in the game that can beat it until it’s fixed. Works good for many MOBAs, and it’s obvious that ANet took a lot of inspiration from games like LoL and DotA whether you like it or not.

GW1 had a lot of RPS going on. Warrior with Hammer locks down monk, Mesmer locks down Warrior, so you need to keep the Warrior alive or kill the Mesmer – often with a Ranger (in GW1 they were very interrupt based, something they should have kept in GW2) or an Anti-Caster Mesmer. Don’t get me wrong GW1 always had some sort of meta build for each class but the dynamic between the classes has very clear strengths and weaknesses.

KrisHQ.4719:

Two things:
1. People are always hesitant try change what is working almost perfectly (condi-spam).
2. I dont believe there are too many players left that actually care enough to theorycraft an entire team-setup, and then practice with it for an extended period of time.

Do you want to? I’d be willing to work with someone who wants to make a counter-meta team.

Master of Timespace.2548:

The guy knows a hellva lot more about game design than you do I’d bet. Also, it’s supposed to be vague as to relate to as many games as possible. Counter their statements if you think it’s wrong, don’t just say “Just because someone made a video about it doesn’t mean its true” because that doesn’t prove your point at all. If you want people to take you serious actually defend your view rather than defacing with no evidence.

I just don’t agree at all to what he says. Doing what he says would end up into a game with whack a mole balance, hard counters, cheese builds (he seems to think those are good idea… ) and generally rock paper scissors type situations. None of those are what I desire. Also, he doesn’t even check his facts: chess is greatly biased towards white.
Also, lol @ “The guy knows a hellva lot more about game design than you do I’d bet”. So game desgin is a science now? No wonder the modern games are so pale.

It wouldn’t lead to whack-a-mole because there would be hard counters to everything, it would be more about slightly nerfing or slightly buffing so that nothing turns the scale too much, but there’s enough slant that things change. If you don’t want Rock-Paper-Scissors (from now on RPS) then what do you want? I can’t name a single game like this that has managed to have some sort of perfect balance where one class always has a fair shot vs each other. That would not only be impossibly hard but would make the game really dull. RPS style balance at least guarantees some sort counter is always available unless something is gamebreaking levels of broken.

We’ve seen in the past how bad things become when we let classes become too well rounded, there always needs to be some sort of Achilles heel.

apt.9184:

BurrTheKing.8571:

waka.9826:

Warrior is the answer? Warrior is the meta.

Then why do we see so few in high level play? Most of the Warriors you see in SoloQ are new to the class and aren’t good at it yet/aren’t built right. As for hotjoin, nothing there matters.

Dude get it out of your head warrior is not hard to play…. I see so many warriors now in high tier tourneys that perform near my level (been playing warrior since the start). Your suggesting what is already in the meta… Although pretty much all classes in meta are not to hard to play. The reason people are complaining is because low tier players can compete with higher tier players because of cheese specs carrying them.

We’ve had this argument before, no class in this game is that hard to play. Every build tends to have some sort of gimmick behind it. Even Engis and Eles have very clear combos that you aim to pull off the only initial challenge is the sheer amount of skills and that doesn’t take long to get over. I still maintain that Warriors are heavily dependent on managing their utilities and long cooldown skills effectively, one misuse of a key skill and you’ll find yourself in a bad spot. This is especially true with the condition removal/mitigation skills. Other classes have this as well but with Warriors being melee with no access to stealth or some of the mechanics Guardian has makes it have bit of a learning curve.

What class/build would you claim requires a lot of skill to play? I used to think Engi nades was hard to use but after a while I found that it wasn’t that bad once you get used to the travel time, and in the end all your doing is pointing and clicking. This game isn’t Counter Strike or any other game considered to have a high skill ceiling. At the end of the game this is 2rd person MMO combat, it can be fun but it it’s more about teamwork than it is about the difficulty of playing your class.

Master of Timespace.2548:

So people just magically stop playing the empirically best meta builds? Are you stupid?

Lol at warrior not op xD

Here’s a good video showing how imbalance can keep things interesting:

That video is so full of vaque kitten. Just because someone made a video about it doesn’t mean its true.

The guy knows a hellva lot more about game design than you do I’d bet. Also, it’s supposed to be vague as to relate to as many games as possible. Counter their statements if you think it’s wrong, don’t just say “Just because someone made a video about it doesn’t mean its true” because that doesn’t prove your point at all. If you want people to take you serious actually defend your view rather than defacing with no evidence.

Dirame.8521:

The meta seems to have been defined by what teams like Team Paradigm, TCG or CC were playing but now that those teams don’t play as often or stream as often, the “meta” is no longer clear for the masses.

This thread would have been great last month or two months ago. People already know that Warrior’s counter the current meta but it’s already too late. The classes have now been called out for nerfs and nerfs are incoming.

The state of the game didn’t really hint at any major nerfs though. I think they REALLY want to force the playerbase to set the meta. Everything Mr. Sharp said when it came to balance lead to “we what to see what the players will do.” I’ll be fine with a bit of a Warrior shave if it comes along with condition shaves as well, but Warriors should remain the counter-condition class. It’s a good way to make sure that while conditions may be viable, they won’t totally dominate like the past. Warriors should remain the foil to conditions just like certain Mesmer builds will be the foil to melee.

Right now I think each class needs a few well defined roles for PvP, I don’t think every class needs to be able to do everything. Not every class needs to be strong 1v1 if in return they gain superior team support. They can continue to give each class more roles but all that can come with time.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

BurrTheKing.8571:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

I personally hate warriors more than necros. But I hate spirit rangers more than warriors. Stun warriors w/ healing signet are pretty imbalanced.

How are they imbalanced? They are strong vs conditions and weak vs anything with a plethora of escapes/protection/stability. Healing Signet is terrible if you keep poison on the warrior, wait until they cleanse it then reapply it again. High burst can also totally nullify it as well, S/D + S/P Thieves do this well. They can micro stun and deal massive damage then steal any sort of stability while teleporting out of any stun. That’s Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Rock paper scissors is an imbalanced game. And I appreciate your post, but warriors have been the answer for awhile against stability lacking condi nukers; but they are just as cheesy with access to 3s stun on 10s cd—really good healing, really tanky, and can dish out a good amount of damage with either condis or extra damage when opponents are stunned. Goodness, I know guard isn’t all that hard to play but at least I have to time everything fairly well to survive. Miss a stun? Let’s just use it again. Gotta heal? Nope, mine’s passive. Give up dps for def? Nope, I can still have a lot of sustain while being super tanky. If banners ever get buffed, they are gonna be worse than spirits because they can’t be destroyed.

Missing a stun is one of the easiest ways to lose as a warrior. Most actually have a 7.75ish CD due to traits but that doesn’t mean you use the skill on cooldown. Waste a stun on a target with stability? Enjoy dealing no damage and making the regen from Healing Sig even less effective because you’re being attack in addition to now have no decent regen from adrenal health for a while. You may not even get back up to full regen by the time it comes off CD. Mace isn’t even as popular as Hammer/Longbow now and the stun from that is even shorter and easier to see coming.

Even now I’m finding Necros and Engis to be much harder to kill because they are bringing more and more counters to me. It’s getting to the point where it’s becoming a fair fight but they are sacrificing more offensive tools to do so which is great.

Warriors still can’t bunker anywhere near as well as Guardians. It’s not even Protection, it’s the number of blocks and invulnerability that they have access to as well. Once again that’s fine, Guardian is another one of those classes that will probably always be on a team unless another class like Ele or Engi gain the ability to bunker just as well.

Also, imbalances aren’t all that bad if it isn’t game breaking, which I think most would agree warrior is not that because there are counters. Here’s a good video showing how imbalance can keep things interesting:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

waka.9826:

Warrior is the answer? Warrior is the meta.

Then why do we see so few in high level play? Most of the Warriors you see in SoloQ are new to the class and aren’t good at it yet/aren’t built right. As for hotjoin, nothing there matters.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

I personally hate warriors more than necros. But I hate spirit rangers more than warriors. Stun warriors w/ healing signet are pretty imbalanced.

How are they imbalanced? They are strong vs conditions and weak vs anything with a plethora of escapes/protection/stability. Healing Signet is terrible if you keep poison on the warrior, wait until they cleanse it then reapply it again. High burst can also totally nullify it as well, S/D + S/P Thieves do this well. They can micro stun and deal massive damage then steal any sort of stability while teleporting out of any stun. That’s Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Kwll.1468:

The large majority of players do not even read these forums regularly. So how do you propose some kind of gamewide cooperation of all players? Never mind the fact that it is not our job to make the devs life easier.

I like to go to Anvil Rock and talk about this as well in addition to reddit if the subject pops up, although it’s mostly PvE guys and the esports subreddit doesn’t get a ton of traffic. A lot of high ranking players do read this tough, and they’re the ones that can help change things at the higher level of play so that it changes the lower levels.

This last month and a half have been very confusing to me. The majority of PvP players agree that the condition meta isn’t fun and needs to go asap. The thing is we already have the tools to try and change the meta ourselves without the need of a balance patch.

Warrior is the answer.

The class has several build that are absolutely perfect for destroying condition based builds, yet no high ranking teams seem willing to use them. What’s even more baffling is how the same people who are saying how much they hate the current meta are now claiming that the class that can stop them is OP. This may just be a case of a very vocal minority making a lot of noise; that being said it still doesn’t excuse the lack of use Warriors are still seeing.

Even if you think Warrior is OP, which I don’t, why are you unwilling to use it yet it’s fine to use Necromancers and Spirit Rangers? Why not try taking 2 Warriors in place of 2 condition users? Building to beat the enemy team is how you create a more dynamic and constantly shifting meta. Hopefully, if we saw more teams with Warriors curb stomping condition teams that would lead to them bringing something like a Mesmer in order to counter Warriors. What was common in GW1 was that Hammer Warriors who know how to quarter knock could lock down a high value target like a monk, so teams had a Mesmer with skills that forced the Warrior to back off.

It feels like the balance team is attempting to indirectly nerf conditions by buffing Warrior. This is a great strategy in my eyes so long as they avoid too much power creep. Too many players want to be able to have a fair chance to win against any build, this is not only practically impossible but not the best choice if you want a shifting meta. A Rock-Paper-Scissors approach would make the game much easier to balance and would allow for more team diversity.

Imagine that conditions are scissors, CC Warriors with Zerker Stance, Dogged March, and Cleansing ire (notice how much they invest) have become rock. So what’s paper? Mesmers, just like GW1. They have access to so many escapes that CC is all but worthless, and that’s fine. The balance isn’t perfect yet but if they keep this sort of balance philosophy I could see Warriors and Mesmers becoming an important part of any team. In a perfect world every class would have access to a rock, paper, and scissor build without being able to have elements of multiple without having significant weaknesses as well.

Instead of demanding that ANet keeps patching the game, lets try and change it ourselves and make their job easier.

EDIT: Here’s the most recent SotG

The Meta has a chance to changed by the players because of Warriors being so strong against condition users, but for some reason the same people claiming to hate the Meta are resiting to change until ANet releases a balance patch.

The disconnect is almost comical, we see people going “omg meta soz bad” and now that Warrior is strong those same people “omg war op nerf everything on dem naow.”

I’d like to see teams run dual Warriors because I bet it could easily squish condition heavy teams. For some reason few seem interested in counter play. I feel like the balance team said “Hey, we know you hate conditions, so have this Warrior who we just gave the tools to crush the Meta.” Of course now Warrior has become the new Spirit Ranger in terms of witch hunts while being nowhere near as powerful.

apt.9184:

BurrTheKing.8571:

apt.9184:

The Primary.6371:

apt.9184:

BurrTheKing.8571:

There has been a LOT of forums posted recently pertaining to Warrior. I’m wondering what the balance team feels about Warrior as it is currently. Most of the “information” presented in these forums is just downright wrong. It’s a lot different than Spirit Rangers where it was apparent that there was very few exploitable weaknesses. The current Warrior meta to me is only strong because it aims to counter the condition heavy meta, which I feel was an attempt to allow the players to shift the meta on their own without directly nerfing said builds in the current meta. The builds we run have several counters, you just don’t see them frequently because they aren’t popular currently. If Warrior remains how it is we may see a shift in the game so that for example Mesmers come back into the fray to counter the Warriors that are Countering Rangers and Necros.

I just pray that you do not listen to these forums filled with incorrect information and “shave” Warriors back into mediocrity so shortly after we were made useful after a year of being the punchline of every PvP joke.

If power meta returns trust me warriors will be OP. They will be one shoting people with sustain. So yea I hope they nerf it so noobs on warrs don’t think they are good at the game (same reason I want spirit ranger nerfed). Warriors were balanced before it was just the other classes needed adjustment. ZERK STANCE AND HEALING SIGNET NEED HUGE NERF. I HATE THAT THE CLASS I PUT MY EFFORT INTO LEARNING IS EASY TO PLAY FOR ANYONE NOW. Enough said.

Clear cut counter to berserker stance: wait for the stance to end (very easy to do) then condi burst war. If you spam every direct dps ability when a ranger uses “Protect Me” or the signet then you will have to be an idiot. If you spam all conditions on an engineer traited for 100% condi immunity at 25%, yeap need not repeat myself.

Counter to healing signet: maintain poison on target or maintain pressure. This also seems to work against rangers, mesmer’s, guardians, engineers and elementalists. Well go figure for that eh?

Opinion sack, I never have trouble with these types of wars as I understand the mechanics in play and know how to counter them.

We can also pop zerk stance when we are already training you then what happens? You cant blind his stun you just have to hope to god you dodge the stun or he is dumb and completely misses an insta cast.

Or…you know…you could make sure to save your stunbreaker/stability until you get hit by Earthshaker and not waste it before then. Not to mention popping the Zerker Stance while your training means sure, you’ll probably not get blinded but you’re getting less overall use because they’ll be CC’d for most of the length of the skill.

The optimal use would be to save it until you REALLY need it or to start the fight with it and use Earthshaker right at the end. That way you not only have a chance to have them waste all their good skills but you’ll get to use a full Combustive shot and Earthshaker.

Well then a necro can’t peel you off using fears and you can pop stab once they go down. Btw you do know earth shaker is easy to dodge why would I need stab for that.

Smart Warriors use Pin Down first, or just aim for where they’ll be at the end of the roll.