Guild Wars 2

I wouldn’t be opposed to doing tests, have your standard Mid Bunker Guardian fight 2 people see how that goes, then run a few of the warrior builds with the same people. I wouldn’t MIND if we had the ability to bunker, but I also don’t think that it’s needed because we can fill other roles, especially that of CC – that no other class can do as well.

Steelo.4597:

Hurrr Burrr, i tried to get it to you in decent terms, but how about this: you screwed up the build and made it viable for absolutely nothing when it was viable in some situations before. also, nice build for trolling i guess but your not gonna kill anyone with just CC.

Too be fair, the original wasn’t viable either because it had no condi counters so any Necro/Engi/Certain Mesmers/Rangers/Condi Warriors/Blind thieves/evade thieves…you get it.

If we’re gonna do joke builds than how about this, the ultimate CC’er.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAS5ejgOpuxO2OQxBEjCjgIOKUCAU9YO2w4A-TsAg0CvI4SxljLDXSuscNQYhwWBA

Hells yah.

runeblade.7514:

BurrTheKing.8571:

SimoxTav.5189:

If they give us 2-3 secs of protection on cast with Shield Bash

or
3 secs after the finish of the 3s block on Shield Stance

I’m done.

That would just make us more like Guardians, which I don’t want to be. The correct path I believe would be to adjust how effective toughness is on a class-by-class basis so you could make toughness worthwhile on a Warrior but not OP on a Guardian. They’ll never do this though.

I am so tired of this argument.

Elementalist, Rangers, and Necromancers have protection, but they are not renamed as guardian, yes?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protection

Elementalists and Necromancers are casters and Rangers are…well..Rangers.

and to quot something Jonathan Sharp said in another thread

“In this game, we want to allow classes the ability to deal with all situations but in different ways. But, if we give all classes all TOOLS (which is a different thing), then players get confused as to which classes fill which roles, and in what way they fill those roles”

Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Current-state-of-the-meta/page/9#post2474136

Right now Mid bunker is best filled by Guardian and home bunker by a Ele. I suppose war could try to go for that home bunker role but that means we have 2 heavy armored soldier classes that would do the same role in fairly similar ways if we were given protection.

Since we’re making jokes I kinda wanna try something really stupid like:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQRApe8ZjkOBvVQGP4QCEkiroKOFUCVB7I9IMGw1A-TwAgzCmIsRZjzGjNSbs2MQYRwuhJBA

Just to see how much regen I actually put out, I think Dolyak’s passive isn’t actually affected by healing power but is seemed to fit the theme of “lols regen”

SimoxTav.5189:

If they give us 2-3 secs of protection on cast with Shield Bash

or
3 secs after the finish of the 3s block on Shield Stance

I’m done.

That would just make us more like Guardians, which I don’t want to be. The correct path I believe would be to adjust how effective toughness is on a class-by-class basis so you could make toughness worthwhile on a Warrior but not OP on a Guardian. They’ll never do this though.

While I don’t like to be OVERLY negative Drek is correct, you’ve sacrificed all condition mitigation/removal in order to get this build. In PvP there’s plenty of condition builds considering it’s the meta and in WvW it’s the exact same thing. I actually do want mostly physical utility skills to be viable but because they offer little ACTUAL UTILITY. If you are really set on those skills the best suggestion I could offer is:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQRAne8ZjcOxupOGPMRCEkCNsKMKGCi4egK0HsDA-TwAg0CvIMSZkzIjRSjsGNIYBxmgJCA

At least with those runes/Traits you can have some condition counters but a many classes will still simply wear you down before you ever get to do any real damage. Axe has also been nerfed hard with most of its damage being moved to the easily dodged final strike in Triple Chop. Also, Evis deals nearly no damage if it doesn’t crit so I swapped the position of the shield and mace and added Unsuspecting Foe. If you you Evis after a Shield Bakitten should be a 100% crit. But that being said I still can’t see this as being viable.

The difference between “bunker” warrior and Bunker Guardian is simple, protection. While there are runes that allow warriors to have protection, they cannot produce it on their own and have it up the majority of the time like Guardians can. HP pools and heavy armor matter for very little in the game, in beta they did and warrior was OP because of how they did it. Rather than tweaking it they made toughness only useful up to a point, you see diminishing returns before long. A burst damage thief can’t take down a Guardian in a timely manner is said Guardian is good. However that thief can simply attack the warrior once, make them use their defensive skills, disengage, then return a few second later and the warrior is screwed. In the short term warriors have decent sustain, but the Guardian and do it for much longer and that’s because ther are DESIGNED to do that.

In PvP you just don’t see good teams running warrior as a bunker because almost everything a Guardian does helps his team, hell even dodge rolling his those around them. Yes, having a banner that instantly revives is nice as is having a banner constantly applying regen, but it’s no match for all the other boons that a Guardian can lay down.

The buffs we got were nice and I DO think that tough warriors might be worth running now but not bunkers. As warriors I think we should find a role only we can play rather than trying to fill one that another class already does.

Also, to the guy saying he can prove it in a duel, a bunker is supposed to hold off multiple people so unless you’re willing to do a 2v1 and you manage to hold us off for a decent time it wouldn’t prove much of anything.

TL;DR Warriors give up a lot more than Guardians in order to be tough, and we should find our own role to fill rather than trying to fill one that’s already filled.

I don’t know why people insist on being the bunker, that role is filled better by a guardian.

Warriors strengths are our mobility, amount of CC, and with the Changes to offhand sword we can even now run conditions. We’re supposed to be the class in between Guardian and Thief, Tough (meaning sustain) but not as tough as a guardian, with damage but not as much as a Thief. I like that they are trying to do this and today’s buffs to healing certainly helped with that. We are still lacking in several areas but are gradually getting better.

I don’t think ANet would ever intentionally make us able to bunker as well as a Guardian because that isn’t our intended role.

dug.7368:

i’d like to see that mace/shield + sword/mace build

I saw a screenshot of the stream and I’m 90% certain he’s running something like this (all the stats are the same as the screen):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQRApe8ZjcOtwpQyQ4wBA0DsyqqTBlUPmDv4A-TwAA1CnIMSZkzIjRSjsGNQYRwGiJBA

It’s a good build for the role of applying CC and locking people down, although I can’t say I enjoy the playstyle that much personally.

Hearing Might Stacking almost made me wanna try it in PvP with Hoelbrak/Strength/Fire runes, but then I remembered that a thief can simply come up to me and go"I’ll take that." It would work fine in WvW, but I’d rather not get my whole team killed in PvP cause I made a super thief.

I actually don’t mind Ripost because is acts as a sort of “Shield Stance” for ranged attacks. That 2 seconds is all it takes for a Ranger or Engi to waste their harder hitting moves. The bleed stacks are also not bad considering now that Warrior Condi builds seem viable now because Torment acts as a good cover. The bleeds don’t have to be applied that long because in the brief time they are there they do a massive amount of damage, even with Rabid gear.

Offhand sword is to be used purely as a condition weapon, and it does that job well now. I do however think they could raise the number of bleeds applied to 6…although they have a fairly long duration so even there I can’t really complain. I prefer Dogged March but if you wanted you could use Missile Deflect which would make Ripost even more interesting. For Phant Mesmers their duelist will actually easily kill itself from reflection, same with thieves guild and any other fast ranger attacks. It’s invaluable on Mace/Shield but I’m not sure it would be as useful for sword as Dogged.

It may not seem that exciting but having 2 seconds to close the gap between you and the ranged enemy and having the chance to apply more bleeds once you’re in their face is highly useful. As for Impale/Rip, the Torment is a great addition and as a result I only really use rip if it would down the guy (Immobilizing a low health foe then using Final Thrust and Rip is pretty cool looking). The extra damage per stack of Torment would be interesting but probably borderline OP. While it’s a condition offhand using it with Power could mean Final Thrust and Rip doing around the same damage which would be a bit much. Perhaps just make it apply 2 stacks of bleed as well would encourage me to time a pull rather than just leaving it in.

I’ve been using it a lot. It does gradually increases up to 5 stacks the longer it stays in. For a condition based build you’ll probably just ignore ripping it out unless doing so would down them. The fact that they’re applied over time makes it a great cover for bleeds. Even if they cleanse it’ll still keep at least one stack on and continue punishing them for trying to kite you.

pot.6805:

I was playing with this earlier.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAscTjcO9uBPGPMxBE0DNsK2iLjkYK0HsDA-TsAgyCqI+S9l7LzXyvsfNqYVxsDA

Unfortunately, your sigils of Doom/Earth share CD’s which means that you’re rarely getting anything from either of them.

EDIT: I still prefer Rabid over Carrion because with my build, the utilities/heal cover condition damage and the toughness from rabids with the (6) bonus from Runes of the Undead give me pretty high condi damage. The toughness covered my weakness vs Bursts such as Thief or Ele because I gave up Endure Pain in favor of having both Zerker Stance and Sig of Stam. If a someone starts bursting I typically just leap away with Savage leap then dodge till they’ve wasted their burst then It’s simply time to start the counterattack.

Don’t lie, the second you saw we got Torment you instantly attempted to make a condition based builds, and who can blame you? What was keeping us from having a decent condition build up till now was that we lacked cover conditions to keep our bleeds from being constantly removed, which lead us to use weapons like Longbow as power weapons rather than a condition one.

Here’s my favorite after testing many different variations today:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAscTjgOpwBPGPMxBEkCNsKOPSipg8UKmD7A-TsAAzCpIaS1krJTTymsNNCYVxsCA

I focused on constantly stacking the bleeds while the Torment and bleed cover them but another option is:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAscTjgOpwBPGPMxBEkCNsKOPSipg8UKmD7A-TsAAzCpIaS1krJTTymsNN6YJw8AA

With Sigil of Doom that’s another condition you can use although it comes at the cost of bleeds. You may also not want to use Venom but it’s all up to you since I haven’t seen anything that is just simply “better” as of yet. 5-6 seconds doesn’t seem like a long time but keep in mind it has a 9 second cooldown so it’s up rather frequently if you time your swaps well.

So how does the build preform? A lot better than I would have expected. This build has so many ways to counter conditions while applying them that I was beating Necromancers at their own game. By the time Berserker Stance runs out you’ll have some 15-20 stacks of bleed in addition to burning and Torment (possibly poison). The thing that makes Impale so good now is that it allows warriors to either punish people trying to kite them (make sure you use Flurry/Pin Down for a better chance to make it land), and because the stacks are applied over time if the enemy is using passive removal it will tend to remove the Torment before your bleeds. I also just used Flurry even if it’s just one bar of Adren because it’s always 8+ stacks of bleeds that thanks to your sigils/traits will last a decent amount of time.

Just a note, it will often feel like you’re losing a 1v1 at the start, but once you get that first wave of conditions out people will just suddenly drop because of the sheer volume of bleeds. The Impale also lingers for a long time so you will be applying it frequently as well. This build is still harder to play than your average Necro condi spam but with just 1 skill change I feel like warriors can actually somewhat participate in the meta outside of Mace/Shield. Another funny bit of side information is that when you immobilze someone with Flurry they often forget to stop trying to move, which prevents them from activating some skills, giving the bleeds the time they needs to do their damage.

I had tried this build many times in the past and it wasn’t worth running but with the renewing cover condition (and it’s damaging as well) in the form of Torment. It was a great decision by Anet and it makes offhand sword more appealing now.

This has been bugging me since launch, the heavy WvW armor has a skin that is given out in various other locations in the game. To top that off it’s one of the ugliest skins in the game imho. Even the skins you can buy in Stone Mist are skins that you can get from Karma vendors. This is a shame because while the Dark Armor skin isn’t bad for me it loses a lot of the appeal since it isn’t unique. It would be nice to see a skin that fits with the Invader weapons, very crude barbarian like.

For me it just feels very disappointing to have the Badges for the armor but to not actually want the skin attached to it. I don’t think there would be a major uproar if the appearance were changed because I doubt there are many who REEEEALLLY love the current look. Perhaps give previous buyers the option to convert if they wish.

If we’re going to talk about hacks, has any1 else encountered people that seem to always conveniently rally even if it seems unlikely that someone the had attacked got downed. I’ve fought people on points that are guy them and yet manages to rally JUST as he’s about to get stomped. It may indeed just be good luck on their point but I’ve also encountered an Ele or 2 that manage to rally twice in a row.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Its funny how ppl actually started running mace mh after post patch..something i had long time ago pre patch anyway. While it is overkill against noobs, decent against condi necro/engi. Howered the goodies end here as rest of the classes can counter that build easily

It just got buffed it all, I ran mace mh prepatch since the Frenzy nerf because it was basically a easier to land Earthshaker, not to mention it’s great with Missile Reflect. The fact is it’s our best burst skill now and it’s potent against even “good” necromacers because they inherently have few counters to it.

Mesmers and Rangers can still generally counter the build fairly easily but it doesn’t matter because we never had a build that could stand up to their meta builds anyways.

While it’s bad that the bug exists, It’s not a huge deal for me considering the mahher combo is to: Set up Backbreaker- Backbreaker – Fierce Blow – Staggering- Hammershock (with leg Spec)- Earthshaker. In the time you use Hammer Shock the bug has passed and you’re free to use whatever you want afterwords.

It is odd it wasn’t hotfixed though, but on patch day there WERE a good # of threads talking about the bug.

Player Character.9467:

BurrTheKing.8571:

peter.9024:

Yeah mace F1 and shield don’t work with it.

Incorrect, they do work with it and it’s the basis behind the Skull Crack+100b that makes all strikes critical if you have fury up.

No, mace f1 and shield bash don’t work with the trait, the attacks that follow them do. The 100b you do AFTER works with the trait but, unlike earthshaker, the stuns on mace f1 and shield bash are currently applied after damage calculations. In a Skull Crack -> 100b build your skull crack itself will only have a 50% crit chance while your 100b has 100%.

I misread what you were saying, I thought you meant that the stuns applied by them didn’t give attacks after than the crit increase. Actually, I’ve found that using Pommel Bash followed by Shield Bash/Skull Cracker makes the attack almost always crits, making me wonder if Daze is being counted as a stun.

While I see the merits of Mace/Shield + Sword/Mace, I feel like a GS offers more.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNApeRjcOtwpQyQMxBAkCsq6oQJmUPmDv4A-TsAg0CvICSFkLITQygsBNsYZxEBA

For one thing, nothing makes people more frustrated than getting hit with 100b. Second, with Burst Mastery the 100b following the Skull Crack almost fills your bar back up again instantly while stacking might from Forceful GS, which stick around longer due to runes of Hoelbrak. Final thrust is also really damaging but frequent 100bs does more. Whirlwind Attack/Rush also offer a lot of survival/peel. GS is also useful because when a non-necro puts on stability you’ll have a weapon that can deal direct damage and isn’t reliant upon CC.

Don’t get me wrong, I like Sword/Mace but I have found GS to allow me to run something more damage based, that evade can be a life saver for dashing through marks or avoiding an oncoming ele spike. I’ve found just the Mace/Shield to be more than enough to keep the Necro pinned down. If I don’t have adren at the start of a fight I’ll use a 1 bar Skull Crack which normally makes them panic and use whatever stun break they have, making them easy pickings for the longer stun shortly after.

Edit: Oh and Runes of Mel still work fine on this build as well, it’s just that Hoelbrak synergize well with Forceful GS and you still get condi reduction. Not to mention because you’re focusing on killing Necros/Engis having extra toughness won’t help that much. Most of your sustain comes from Blocks and Evades.

Also, Daecollo what meta build ISN’T a gimmick? Mesmers do nothing but spam shatters, rangers spam evades while the pet does the work, thieves use either blind spam or evade spam, Necros and engis spam conditions. The Stun Lock build requires a lot more effort to use well than any of the above listed builds. Missing any of your Stuns/Daze is a major setback and may lose you the fight. This build finally gives us some sort of roll to play on a TPvP team, Anti-Necro/Engi.

It’s nice to see others who are willing to write lengthy, thought out replies. Half the time it’s “l2p nub.”

I think giving certain skills a “unevadable” effect could be interesting, considering how srong not only dodges are but evades as well. Warrior’s hammer or Ranger’s longbow (Hunters shot given the ability to interrupt spells) being made into interrupt weapons could bring back some of the good mechanics from GW1. War’s hammer would be more useful if dodging it wasn’t so easy.

Have you ever stopped and considered how frequently you are able to dodge in this game? Even without Vigor the rate at which your endurance regenerates is very fast. Now, try to imagine the effect that reducing this recharge rate would have on the game. Perhaps dodges would become something you save for a particularly dangerous skill, and not something you just use willy-nilly.

In fact, I feel the whole game in general could do with being a slightly slower paced. GW1 had such good PvP because it had a well-balanced pace. Interrupts were VERY important to the game, because the best skills had longer cast times and getting that skill interrupted was a huge setback. In GW2 interrupts are still around but are much less important because skills cast so quickly. Go look at GW1 wiki and pick a class like Mesmer or ele and look at the skills cast times compared to GW2. In GW1 most caster skills were just slightly slower than GW2, being around 1 second on average but with some of the best skills being up to 3 seconds. Now a split second may not seem like much but as someone who play a lot of GW1 I can say that this game’s pace feels much quicker, and I don’t think that’s a good thing.

I’d imagine this faster pace also makes shoutcasting much more difficult considering someone can be dropped in a few short seconds. Games like LoL and SC2 are good Esports because you can enjoy watching them without a lot of knowledge about the game because it’s very clear what is happening on screen. Now, the basic concept of conquest is easy enough to understand, but because most fights devolve into who can spam the most conditions on point while tons of particle effects obscure the battle it’s no wonder it hasn’t caught on.

A slower pace that results from less frequent dodges and re-emphasizing interrupts by having longer cast times on spells would offer the opportunity for clutch plays and possibly lessen the dominance of casters and ranged fighters.

redslion.9675:

BurrTheKing.8571:

The problem I’m seeing with going hammer/mace is that you’ll be as immobile as a guardian but with much less survivability. At least with Hammer/Sword and leg specialist you’ll have a gap closer outside of Earthshaker and Hamstring/Savage leap cripple can help set up Final Thrust. Sword also gives you a fast auto attack combo so when they’re in stability you can focus on pure damage and not mace/hammer’s painfully slow auto attack.

I’m trying to find a way to include Fear Me and Shake it Off in my build because when it comes to clearing a point few skills are as good as Fear Me, it’s also great for setting up Earthshaker/Backbreaker.

Also, with hammer finding the right balance between Power and survival is tricky because if you’re too squishy any misses are devastating, but if you’re too tough you’ll never kill anything. Now in team fights you may not need too but I think you should still be able to hold your own in a 1v1.

I find I’m having a much easier time running warrior’s sprint.

The problem is you have to trick your enemy into fighting you on your terms, and that isn’t always easy.

Second, your efficiency is mostly in 1v1 fights: Skull Crack is one of themain strength of this build, but it’s only single target.

Third, to get the maximum damage you can get, you have to make a perfect rotation, (e.g.: using your high damage skills while the opponent is stunned). This means you have less attention to use for the battle around you. When people bring their armies of pets, minions and AoE spam, it’s gonna be a tough fight.

From my limited experience as a bad stunlock warrior, your best fights are the small ones on side nodes. Or the cannon in Skyhammer. Here, cc is also a defensive mechanism, because the enemy won’t fight back during that period.

On the upside, I think mace burst is more reliable than final thrust. And it’s instant, meaning it’s almost unavoidable (and you can stop a kitten thief spamming evades).

Ah allow me to clarify, while I love the playstlye as a hammer because I used it in GW1 (I so miss being the Anti-Mage class), but in GW2 it is far too easily countered. I use Mace/Shield+GS now. It gives you both CC and mobility, allowing you to stay close and more importantly lock down a Necro or Engi so they can’t spam condis on your allies. I really want to be able to use Hammer because it’s my favorite weapon, it has its uses but atm Mace is far more reliable.

What is stated above is very true. While they lack stability they have so many stun breaks that even if you landed every Skull Crack you would be better off instantly using Whirlwind attack and avoiding 100b. I have managed to narrowly defeat good mesmers by Skull Cracking/Shield Bashing/pommel striking their heal multiple times in a row. SC can do a good 3k+ dmg on crit. Of course if they catch on they can just stealth before healing and tada you’ll be overwhelmed. The trick is trying to keep the number of clones as low as possible which Whirlwind/Bladetrail can be good at.

All that being said 1v1 a good mesmer vs a good warrior the mes will probably win most of the time. The shatter rotation is so easy to pull off and all the stun breaks they can bring makes locking them down impossible. If you can damage them enough and only use your Daze/Stuns for heals is your best shot at taking them down.

In TPvP they’re actually easier in team fights because they often bring Illusion of life and Portal so they only have less stun breaks, but for WvW they can run the most selfish build possible. It’s further proof we need more WvW/PvP splits so that builds can be toned down in one arena without making it useless in another.

Luske.3297:

16k no problem

You have Second To God who made this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r4E9N50lTs

and here i play with rifle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-L3yLB35ss

Sorry, but I refuse to put much faith in WvW montages. They show ONLY the success, and without knowing gear of the other player for all you know they’re running around in all Masterwork gear. Even the players with food buffs seem to never use and CC on you which would just ani I mean you’re hitting 3k auto attacks and there’s no way anyone who is properly geared out is going to be hit that hard. Not to mention your build has no stability and no way to deal with conditions. The people in this video seem to not know how to stop someone from fleeing, only to not pop a stun breaker when it’s obvious after the Shield Bash what’s coming next. The Shatter mesmer played his build so poorly I almost cried.

All these videos proved to me is how low the average skill level of PvP players are.

peter.9024:

Yeah mace F1 and shield don’t work with it.

Incorrect, they do work with it and it’s the basis behind the Skull Crack+100b that makes all strikes critical if you have fury up.

Evis is much weaker than it used to be. In fact for PvP mainhand axe is not the best choce anymore considering the auto attack damage nerf. Final Thrust on sword actually deals around the same damage on foes under 50% health, which is typically when you used Evis anyways.

I have NEVER seen a Evis one shot for 16k. I think at most you’ll see Around half that on glassy light armored foes. Unless you post a screenshot of a combat log of it hitting like that I can’t say I believe you. Sounds like another case of a non-warrior thinking warriors are OP. Is this PvP or WvW? Either way I doubt you could hit for 16k without having a ton of vuln stacks and that would mean multiple people would of had to stack them without damaging you to get a “one shot.”

EDIT: I’m talking from a PvP perspective here, not WvW. In PvP, if you ran something that glassy you would never survive long enough for it to connect and players would stun break Shield Bash making your chance to crit much lower because you’d be running 30/10/0/0/30. Even with something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAneRngOEFcuDyQwEZAw8wogK6UQJ1j5cLOA-TsAg0CnIwRhjDHDOScs4MIYRw8DA

I can’t see you being overly successful, although when it does get that big crit it’s funny.

The problem I’m seeing with going hammer/mace is that you’ll be as immobile as a guardian but with much less survivability. At least with Hammer/Sword and leg specialist you’ll have a gap closer outside of Earthshaker and Hamstring/Savage leap cripple can help set up Final Thrust. Sword also gives you a fast auto attack combo so when they’re in stability you can focus on pure damage and not mace/hammer’s painfully slow auto attack.

I’m trying to find a way to include Fear Me and Shake it Off in my build because when it comes to clearing a point few skills are as good as Fear Me, it’s also great for setting up Earthshaker/Backbreaker.

Also, with hammer finding the right balance between Power and survival is tricky because if you’re too squishy any misses are devastating, but if you’re too tough you’ll never kill anything. Now in team fights you may not need too but I think you should still be able to hold your own in a 1v1.

The game isn’t designed around 1v1 fights, it’s designed around teamfights. There are several problems with duels:

1. Elites like Moa, Thieves Guild, and Supply drop give the user a huge advantage over classes with less powerful elites. In a team fight these Elites aren’t too bad, but 1v1 they can win you the match.

2. Thieves are not designed to duel “fairly.” I’ve spent some time in duel servers and if I get a thief low they just use Shadow Sant and simply stay stealthed until their heal is back up. While you can AoE the sanct they can simply dodge until they get 9 seconds of stealth and back off then come back with a full HP bar. If you’ve never seen thief duels they’re the most boring fights ever.

3. As someone who has played MMOs with a duel system it tends to encourage annoying behavior like “yo u sux 1v1 me brah.” GW and GW2 are (supposed to be) about team play and cooperation. Even in TPvP it’s about what you bring to the team not how good you are 1v1.

I only use duel servers to test a build and to get used to using it, but I’ve never taken it seriously.

It’s a rated Teen game, it makes sense that the official forums would have some sort of censorship lest some angry mothers get offended. That being said, an option to disable it for 18+ players wouldn’t be bad. I actually find some of its mistakes funny to read.

Defektive.7283:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Defektive.7283:

SPESHAL.9106:

Maybe you haven’t been globalled by a grenade engineer or kill shot by a warrior, but power/crit builds are still dealing massive damage too.

wait what, we’re talking about PvP right?

I sure am, I mean, it’s the SPvP forum. I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen a viable Kill Shot warrior. To deal that giant crit requires being as fragile as a glass thief with none of the sustain. Saying something is a L2P issue then saying something like that is a good way to have me take nothing you say seriously.

Now I’m just incredibly confused. Can we still be friends?

Sure, BFFs.

Defektive.7283:

SPESHAL.9106:

Maybe you haven’t been globalled by a grenade engineer or kill shot by a warrior, but power/crit builds are still dealing massive damage too.

wait what, we’re talking about PvP right?

I sure am, I mean, it’s the SPvP forum. I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen a viable Kill Shot warrior. To deal that giant crit requires being as fragile as a glass thief with none of the sustain. Saying something is a L2P issue then saying something like that is a good way to have me take nothing you say seriously.

The major reason that conditions have overtaken power as the preferred way of dealing damage is that there is no way to reduce its effectiveness. Yes, you can remove the conditions but for several classes even running the maximum condition removal options for their class they are still easily overwhelmed. Even with recent changes such as warriors having the duration of Berserker Stance increased smart players have gotten wise and simply fall back/block/stealth until that 8 seconds is over. For around a week Necros and Engis had good reason to fear a warrior with a mace but that now that they have adjusted once again that threat has been minimized.

It seems that Vitality was intended to be the foil of condition damage, and while having a lot of health does help somewhat there’s a reason you don’t see a ton of people walking around with large HP pools – it simply doesn’t overcome conditions as intended. Counterplay only works when there IS a viable way to counter it.

I can only see two ways conditions stop being the meta, the first is that conditions are nerfed so much that running pure condition builds is not a preferable spec. This would be a bad way to go about this because that would once again make Necromancers a useless PvP class. The second option would be to add a mechanic that acts like toughness but for conditions. The problem is, how do you implement such a mechanic without dramatically changing the game? A new stat like Resistance would totally throw off how gear currently work, or would require many more sets of armor/Amulets be made with this new trait.

This would be interesting to see, considering it would mean that the meta would shift to always having Resistance to counter conditions, which would temporarily shift the meta away from conditions because they would be less damaging. This would also meen if you wanted to be the best bunker possible you would want +Vitality +Toughness +Resistance in order to not be weak to anything, meaning that you probably would never kill anything but could hold off against multiple foes (which is what a bunker should be, unlike currently).

The problem with this, like mentioned earlier, is that it would require A LOT of work be done. So much I doubt it would look like an appealing idea from a Dev standpoint. Perhaps a simpler solution would be to do away with the Concentration in trait bonuses and to add Resistance there instead. Once again though, some players may enjoy that bonus in their builds. Perhaps give some classes a trait that reduces the damage of conditions the more that are on you.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head, please give your ideas/feedback as well. So long as this current meta that encourages nothing but mindless spamming persists the less interesting PvP becomes.

Puandro.3245:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Thanks, I’ll look into this issue. =)

Is it possible to make it block like Riposte and most other melee block attacks for Counterblow, you know not stop against range attacks.

It does do this with the Missile Reflect Trait, highly recommended with Mace/shield.

Pvt Frosty.6973:

As far as I see there is currently 2 viable builds in pvp. This build, “the stunlocker” and then the (sword/shield -)longbow hybrid (also my favourite). Both work with similar traits (Personally prefer 30 in Defense, I like the traits there more).

I also LOVE the new berserker stance, gotta love ruining a necros day!

I would say this is also viable now:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAS8ejcOtwpQyQMxBE0DNsK4C1D8YDjjUBxA-TsAg0CvIMSZkzIjRSjsGNsYZxGCA

You could also go more defensive with Soldiers ammy with Zerker stone, although personally I think that would be a bit overkill and would hinder your damage more than what’s necessary.

visuaL.4807:

Maybe 90% like dat !!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQRApe8ZjcOpwxQuQ4wBE0DNMLqiTBlQ9YOwj4A-TwAA1CnIMSZkzIjRSjsGNQYRwGhJBA

Curses! I saw that the other guy’s guess was incorrect and didn’t check yours. I was determined to figure it out from the picture posted…and ended up with the basically the exact same setup as you except for the runes, which is pretty much personal preference anyways. I had gotten confused by the very minor differences in toughness and strength then realized that I forgot about Tough Skin and Armored Attack.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQRApe8ZjcOtwpQyQ4wBE0DNMLqiTBlQ9YOwj4A-TwAA1CnIMSZkzIjRSjsGNQYRwOgJEA

His friend may be mad that he let it slip :P. Just one glance at the stats screen is all it takes.

As for the build itself I think I’ll stick with Mace/Shield and GS.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNApeRjcOtwpQyQMxBEkCsoKOKUCmQ9AP2w4A-TsAg0CvICSFkLITQygsBNsYZxEBA

His build is tougher but I have to question whether its survival is that much better. With condis being the meta toughness doesn’t count for much anymore, and you simply have to save Endure Pain for any Thief/Ele spikes that come your way. Not to mention the evade on Whirlwind Attack can still be a lifesaver. I gotta say though Tremor is a nice skill. This build seems more focused on the control element while mine is singling out a target (usually Necro) and takinging them out of the fight as fast as possible. The synergy between Unsuspecting Foe, Forceful GS, and Hoelbrak runes is also something I enjoy.

As for the aesthetic for some reason Sword/Mace really annoys me as well. If it was the absolute best option I wouldn’t allow it to stop me from using it but since I have the choice I’ll take the Anime Greatsword of Justice still just for Whirlwind Attack and who well Skull Crack and 100b go together.

Assassin.7890:

I like your build alot and will test it now in PvP.
I think if you use #5 to run away in the right moment it is better movement now then “Ride the lightning” from Ele which prevented me almost every time to get killed.
I just dislike how endure pain functions…

Endure being on a 60 sec CD now is vital for avoiding coordinated spikes on you, especially by Eles or Thieves. Before Zerker Stance buff the fact that it didn’t stop conditions did suck but now that we have that buff using Endure with the Evade from Whirlwind attact, counterblow, Shield Stance, and all our other stances lets us even do some crazy stuff like rushing mid at the start solo and be able to potentially hold off 2 others while you wait for backup. Rush is a decent way to peel although being crippled/slowed still make it less effective than stealth.

I never thought I’d ever say this but ever since the duration was doubled I feel like I can actually fill some sort of roll on a team. The role I am referring to is that of a Necromancer Hunter. These guy are so lacking in mobility and stun breakers that when running a Skull Cracker build…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNApeRjcOtwpQyQMxBEkivoKOKUCmQ9AP2w4A-TsAg0CvICSFkLITQygsBNsYZxEBA

(Still debating between Sure-Footed and Missile Reflect, S-F makes Zerker stance last around 10 seconds which is a big deal but I’m not sure it’s worth losing being able to use Counter blow as a way to make ranged classes leave me alone while I close the gap)

… if you use Zerker Stance as you engage (otherwise you’ll get slowed) that’s 8 seconds where you’re free to set them up to be destroyed. Thieves are more susceptible to Fear then warriors so for once we do something better than they do.

Now, that’s not to say many classes still can’t simply wait out those 8 seconds then destroy us afterwords, but I’ve still found that my chances at assaulting a point 1v1 and winning vs a Ele or Guardian have also jumped up as well. With Ele’s you just have to bait out Armor of Earth and Mist and after that if you use your stances correctly you’ll have them down before long. Even Guardians with all their access to Stability can be taken down because of how frequently Skull Crack is up, just don’t wait for the full charge and use it when you see an opening and their small health pool will eventually cave. Of course, all these situations are very skill dependent, someone as good as you and can tell when Skull Crack is coming can still take you out no problem. Mesmers and Evade Thieves/Rangers can be especially annoying because managing to land the important skills can be hard (although make a evade thief use all their Stun Breaks and land the stun and they die instantly).

It’s pretty crazy how just one duration increase finally makes me feel like I could make a convincing argument to bring a warrior on a team. Defektive’s Longbow build can also be used with all stances now as well or even Hammer because Blind is what always keeps Backbreaker/Earthshaker from landing more so than blocks. We’ve also become as locked into trait placement as mesmers but we’re in the best shape we’ve ever been in and I actually enjoy myself in PvP a lot more and have a lot less “oh we have a warrior we lose, gg.”

I’m aware there has been a ton of Berseker Stance threads but I really want to show my appreciation to the devs for finally giving us a niche to fill in PvP.

In TPvP Stances are the only thing you use now. 3 of the best builds we have access to are best when used with the Newly Buffed Berserker Stance.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNApeRjcOtwpQyQMxBEkCsoKOKUCmQ9AP2w4A-TsAg0CvICSFkLITQygsBNsYZxEBA

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAS8ejcOtwpQyQMxBE0jroK4C1D8YDjjUBxA-TsAg0CvICSFkLITQygsBNsYZxGCA

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAT8ejcOtwpQyQMxBEkiroKOKSipQ9AP2w4A-TsAg0CvICSFkLITQygsBNsYZxGCA
(Alternatively 30 in Arms 20 in Dis)

Stances are now the best source of sustain a warrior can have in PvP. Berserker Stance in particular is 8 seconds of ignoring the current meta. In those 8 seconds you can lock down a necromancer for your team and take them out of the fight early. I still can’t say warriors are the best option, and now 20 points in Defense is all but required, but things have gotten better with just that 1 buff to Zerker Stance.

In PvP shouts are rather pathetic, and require 20-30 points in Defense and at least 20 in Tactics. They don’t give stability and as a result you need Last Stand, but you also want Cleansing Ire most likely as well. Fear Me is a good skill now but the 20 points tactics investment tends to be a bit too high.

I suppose you could run something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAS8ejcOVvNPGPMxBEkiroKUPsjNMOSKED0A-TsAg0CvICSFkLITQygsBNQYZxGCA

…but I can’t say I think that be better than running all stances.

Now if you’re talking WvW Shouts probably would be more useful to a zerg but being able to wade through a sea of conditions for 8 seconds sounds like a better deal to me.

redslion.9675:

ronpierce.2760:

I find it funny that people are upset about CC that necros can pull off but not what Mace/Shiled+Hammer warriors can do :P Now THAT is funny. (I’ve done it)

Because Hammer and Mace with warriors are real skillshots:

Hammer is very slow and telegraphed, while mace’s stun is fast, but has a really short reach.

And those warriors are rare.

The problem with having both hammer and mace is that you’ll have no gap closers besides Earthshaker, which isn’t really designed to be used as such. Not to mention that when stability is up you are stuck using auto attacks. At least with a sword of GS you’ll have access to mobility and attacks that aren’t dependent on CC.

I agree with the assessment that Necromancer is an easier class to play as I stated last post. However, Endure pain leaves you still vulnerable to conditions and nobody should run Staff w/o it being traited which means Shield Stance is also worthless against it. Combine that with Corrupt boons making stability go bye bye we’re left with Berserker Stance. It’s a good skill now but requires you using it as soon as you engage, which means you have 8 seconds to deal significant damage otherwise you’ll still be chained feared into wall, which is a skillshot but as stated eariler the fact that you can make your foe helpless to counter it by boon stripping WHILE placing down more Marks and all while having Terror and Dhuumfireand that’s where things get ridiculous. The staff by itself with no perks isn’t anything special but with those perks it really starts to shine.

Lets also not forget one VERY, VERY important fact – that PvP is a conquest mode. If you’re playing the game right most combat will take place on a tiny circle where avoid all this AoE means leaving the circle and losing the point. I actually like conquest modes but the points needs to be larger and the AoE smaller. Things that don’t seem so bad on an open field become OP when they become super strong when forcing people off points. Marks and the S/D skills become very reliable on these small points as well and dodging them becomes less of a counter for several classes. The problem, once again, becomes worse because now everyone runs double Necro which if you don’t have in a team fight means chances are you’ll be overwhelmed.

Necros do have the downfalls you mentioned but they aren’t as bad when assaulting a point.

The overall pacing of this game has become too fast. GW1 had a very deliberate pace about it which many vets of the game enjoyed. The time to kill in GW2 has gotten shorter and shorter the more things got buffed to match whatever was too strong at the time. Sometimes bringing things up to par is a good decision but in GW2s cause it seems to have led to a ton of power creep. This increased pace also makes streaming much harder as well I’d imagine.

As for CC, in organized play you should always have a source of stability or ways to peel away from the fight. That being said one Well of Suffering on a point and see yah stability. This could be lessened by having much larger capture points and smaller AoEs in PvP.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

While I would have liked this game to be active aiming oriented rather than hit scan + auto hits with tab targeting turning everything into skill shots at this point is not possible. It would require changing the combat systems from the ground up. The time and effort that would be required to do that at this point in the game’s life cycle is simply not reasonable for the devs to consider.

I do not think it would require a total redesign of the combat engine. Some skills could be changed to work like existing skill shots. Another skillshot type could be added that is simply a straight line. Skills that could be made like this for warrior would be Blade Trail, Bulls Charge, Bolas, Volley, Kill Shot, Throw Axe, Impale, and Tremor.

The increased control would actually be a big help for some of these skills that have a tendency to be unreliable in their current state. The speed of skills like Bulls and Impale would need to be sped up as well. The most annoying thing about stealth is that even if you know where they are you often can’t do much more than auto attack considering how many skills require a target to actually go where you want them, but being able to precisely control where Tremor, Bolas or Bulls goes would allow you to lock them down and would be highly skillful. A simple line skillshot wouldn’t be a dramatic departure from the current combat engine but would go a long way in adding more depth and would make watching it more enjoyable.

sorrow.2364:

BurrTheKing.8571:

As I pointed out Staff marks are weak.
They aren’t capable to kill a single entity all by themselves. That’s why most Necros doesn’t use staff as main weapon and use it as a support weapon to their main set.

Egineer’s Granades have devastating effects. Their damage is way higher compared to Marks and they can be traited to have even a longer ranger than marks. Even the bleeding they apply are way longer and reliable compared to the Mark of Blood bleeds.

That’s the point. Easier to land skills are in most cases weak. Every profession have access to easy-to-land-weak skills and skillshot skills.
Making every skill skillshot will kill game variety.

The Marks aren’t weak though because Necros have 2 weapon sets. No class in the game only uses one weapon set (Engis use kits) to kill because cooldowns are fairly long. The marks are so reliable and synergize so well with Scepter/Dagger and you can strip stability and ensure your target can do little to nothing to stop it. I like that there’s synergy there but it’s not difficult to land an like I said the fear chaining can leave most classes helpless. The problem is multiplied when there’s 2 Necros on a team constantly fearing. Luckily the changes to Berserker Stance does allow warriors 8 seconds to catch them and CC them with Mace/Shield or Hammer but once that 8 seconds is up their goose is cooked because Endure Pain doesn’t stop conditions and Balanced Stance can be stripped.

That being said I don’t want Condis nerfed into uselessness cause that would make Necros worthless again. I’d rather have them made more difficult to land so that they become more on par with Power builds.

The current Engi meta builds require a much higher skill ceiling when compared to Necro. Their meta is also still too strong as well considering they have good damage with good sustainability. However that skill ceiling is keeping them from taking the brunt of my criticism because you encounter way less good engis than you do moderately good Necros.

I’m also not saying EVERY skill in the game should be a skillshot because that’s impossible. However I think you’re wrong in saying it would kill variety because there are plenty of ways to make a skillshot, again look at SMITE for a good example. I also don’t see how having a bunch of fire and forget skills adds to variety as that’s way more stale than anything else. Combustive Shot and Arching shot are the only reason Warrior longbow is fun to play but rifle on the other hand is dull as hell because you just target and tap 1-5. I’d like to be able to actively aim my Volley and Kill Shot because then if I know where a stealthed target is I could actually deal some damage to them because I’m the one in control of aiming. Imagine landing a skill shot Bolas, they stealth, but you can still hit them with Kill Shot cause you locked them down.

Copenhagen.7015:

I agree Burr. I wish the game had more skill shots. I was watching a short vid on Wildstar combat, and I like the aiming that abilities require. Same with TERA.

Example. Heartseeker basically homes on your target. You want to dodge roll through a Thief and split the other direction? Too bad, his HS knows exactly where you are even though he doesn’t. You can’t run from that. That is what I consider a no skill ability.

What if the Thief actually had to aim that Heartseeker? Suddenly your dodge roll is more meaningful, and you can escape the HS spam while Mr. Thief tries to find you.
What if it worked this way for Unload? You have to actually aim to get those shots to hit. Eviscerate? Life Blast? Bulls Charge?

There are a few skills that require “aiming” already. Fire Grab and Engi pistol #5 Flamethrower. They have are high damage abilities that also have a chance to miss. Needs more of this.

I think GW2 could use more ground targeting and reticle/cursor aiming. I believe that is the future of MMO combat.

It’s funny to me because I think GW2 (whos combat seems to have drawn inspiration from some moba games) at least in part inspired games like SMITE and Wildstar, but they are now taking it to a better level. I’d be fine with them stealing sme of these new ideas coming out for themselves. SMITE in particular has taken skill shots to the point where even your basic attack has to be aimed. I don’t think GW2 would go that far but if you ask me landing skills like Arching Shot, Whirlwind Attack, and Earthshaker is much more engaging than most of the magic based classes, that while they have targeted skills tend to be much easier to hit, especial if you’ve done a significant amount of time as a warrior.

Some people who find that landing Marks is fine I suggest either try using warrior Longbow or Hammer and you’ll get a different perspective. I’d like to be able to manually target skills like Bladetrail, Impale, and many rifle skills because I feel like I could do a better job of making sure the attack lands than the auto target tends to. It would also just be so much more engaging and would add even more depth to the combat. Engis grenade kit is a good example of abilities that require a a good amount of effort to use well. Being up close means exposing yourself to more danger but makes the nades easier to land but at range you have to account for travel time and even once you become good at it you’ll still miss shots.

Watching even high skilled players is fairly dull in this meta considering most condition based skills are auto targeted. Seeing someone nail a perfect condition spike would be a lot more exciting if landing all the skills were actually a challenge.

A lot basic melee weapons obviously can’t all be skill shots but if you look at most weapons on any class at least 1 ability could be made a skillshot.

I’m picking on Necro because currently the meta uses staff and if you compare Marks to Nades it’s obvious which is more difficult to use. Oh and Marks do deal raw damage. Not a ton mind you but it certainly isn’t insignificant when combined with Fear doing damage and you’re being set on fire as well. You can chain Reapers Mark and Spectral Wall to chain fear with Doom and with Corrupt Boons or Well of Suffering bye-bye stability.

I’m actually glad that Necromancers were buffed, it’s also a giant kick in the baffling that they were willing to make them so good yet act so timid with warrior. Conditions are the meta because of factors like toughness not affecting conditions and that you can get good damage out of them while still having toughness for power based classes and healing power or precision. Meanwhile if you want to deal decent damage with power you need critical damage which requires also having good crit chance, limiting your choices.

Seeing Bulls Charge made a skillshot would actually be pretty cool if in return they made the travel time faster and maybe have it affect up to 2 other people adjacent to the first person it hits. If unload received a buff and became a skillshot it would reward setting the target up with Headshot or Venom.

Lordrosicky.5813:

BurrTheKing.8571:

sorrychief.2563:

Just learn to play and dodge through marks. I’m glad necro got buffs and I don’t even play the class.

Marks would be better if they gave you a chance to dodge after they are triggered, much like Counterblow or Illusionary Counter. The problem with marks is that when they’re dropped under your feet you don’t get any real chance to avoid them. That be OK if that was difficult to do but let’s be honest it isn’t anywhere near as difficult as grenades.

Really if you dont dodge alot whilst the necro is in staff then you deserve to die. It is like not dodging illusionary leap. You will die and it is because you played bad

A smart Necro will wait for the dodge and place it where you land, and even with dodges you can’t avoid them all. Pretty annoying how warrior has so many easily telegraphed attacks, yet telling certain magic attacks apart from each other is nearly impossible because the differences are either subtle or non-existent. With marks it be nice to have the symbol on the icon appear over their head so you can choose which ones are the most important to dodge.

peter.9024:

No, only thing sure footed needs is 20% reduction in stance CD

They will most likely never do a flat reduction because the higher the cooldown the greater the effect. 20% reduction would make Endure Pain and Zerker stance have a ridiculously low CD.

BrunoBRS.5178:

1- you can already dodge through marks to blow them without being affected. the problem are the marks laid on your feet.

2- i think a similar, but much more “clean” solution would be having marks have a 0.5s-1s ICD on cast, meaning they can only be triggered one second after being laid. it should also, IMO, affect all traps for equalization’s sake, since marks are essentially traps, and right now no one uses traps as traps, but rather as odd AoEs.

1 is suggested exactly BECAUSE of marks laid at your feet. It isn’t hard to do and that means that against even a moderately good player avoiding all the marks is pretty much impossible.

The ICD isn’t a bad idea, that would certainly be a cleaner way to do it although I have a feeling that would kitten of Necros a great deal.

dooger.2640:

Could be interesting, F2-4 for stances…

Could be too much like wow warrior, but would not be too hard to retain gw flavor.

worth considering for sure.

Honestly, I don’t want to have to use the F2-4 keys. It would be too much like Engineer/ele, just having the bonus effect trigger on activation would be enough.