Guild Wars 2

Blaeys.3102:

Nabrok.9023:

Straegen.2938:

The score is a symptom of the larger population/coverage issue. Treating the symptom will not fix anything.

Do not get target locked on balancing the score when reasonably fair fights is what is important. Some previously suggested “fixes” to this include:

• Guild Alliance matches that are aligned weekly rather than Server v Server
• Allow some guilds to be unaffiliated with servers and assign them to servers that need them each week
• Create a limited amount of free transfers to specific servers each week to help balance out populations

While I agree that fixing imbalance issues will have a profound effect on scoring, we’ve already had that discussion.

I dont think we can have the conversation in a vacuum.

Especially when so many of us believe that any scoring change will be most likely be a bandaid until they can address the real problem of lopsided servers/population imbalances.

The proposed idea (which I loved a year ago when it was first proposed) would – most likely – fix it all – without disrupting server communities or in any way and let them focus on other ways to make WvW fun for everyone without having to get creative with scoring or lopsided buffs (which other games have tried and failed with – if anyone remembers WoW’s Wintergrasp “solutions” to a similar issue years ago) .

DaOC – front runner with this type of play back in 2001 had it right. They had a player portal for weekly stats. That alone resolved 90% of the issues with population because even if one server didn’t own all the relics you could still do things that assisted the individual players reputation and score.

Provide a similar incentive and guild alliances with rewards for defending assets one tends to forget the match score. Roamers still score points and zergs still do their thing. At the end of the day kill is still a kill and a point is still a point. Solo kill player gets all the points vs. a zerg getting 1/16th of the same point distribution…

We can’t shorten the match from a week, to a couple days, to a couple hours because the population and clock coverage is still there. I’m not a huge fan of guild merging options across servers or something like that because then we face the last person picked for a team syndrome

John Corpening.9847:

• 24 hour coverage
  • How do we make play time in off hours valuable without blowing out the score?

Good question but probably a tough nut to crack. Maybe take a look at the server statistics that you have available already and see if it paints anything. Personally I believe it comes down to server populations and wall clock availability. It appears we can see via the current rankings across both regions the sweet spot after matches. A blow out vs. games within 20,000 or so points. Those games within 20k of one another are actually pretty well balanced and probably be enhanced via the questions you are asking.

Example. Take last week when Ehmry Bay (I play there) vs. Gate of Madness vs. Sanctum of Rall. GoM 267K, SoR 196K vs. Ehmry Bay at 181K. SoR and Ehmry Bay are close.

You could maybe tie points to players and scale accordingly based on server side statistics that would increase GoM’s worth and dumb down the others in this matchup discussion.

• Snowballing
  • How do we give worlds a fighting chance throughout the duration of the match?

See above. I think they are tied together because by Sunday you know how the week is going to play out and people just won’t show outside those that play that meta of play. Objectives become more difficult to take but dedicated players of that format still do things like flipping camps, guards, and events. The difficulty is taking towers, upgraded towers, and playing hide and seek from the zergs or larger forces

• Stagnation
  • How do I feel continuously challenged when my world is ahead?
  • How does my world break the hold that other worlds have on me when I’m behind?

Balance. Look at the historical scores between matchups. In my example above between GoM, SoR, and EB SoR and EB are close and both have a chance to win. Neither will win vs. GoM – just a pure numbers game. How to keep it interesting to players – enhance the package.

First. Alliances between guilds. This is already being discussed is my understanding based on a few threads.

Second. Change guild claiming and enhance it. Give guilds, alliances, and members incentives to do things around their claimed area. Increase luck or exp. Increase duration of exp boost based on longevity of asset holding. Boots game wide, not just WvW (player incentive to come defend from other maps). Allow guards to warn when enemies pass by or hit them.

Third. Fix Obsidian Sanctum. Great area – just like the ruins but empty. You have walls, you have traps. You have this crazy thing at the beginning that no one understands what it does. Move the waypoints around a bit and tie it to each borderland ruin center. Move chest up top to the bottom somewhere lower middle. Cut or dim the lights, add some torches, let players fire weapons light up the area and spells, and add a metric ton of hostile creatures on the way to the chest. When your guild claims a tower you get boosts, luck, and exp boost – enter OS and now you can level and farm mats with a chest at the bottom with a shiny object…

Lastly – incentives I believe are larger for people who play this format. Guilds and alliances like swag. Bragging rights more or less. Yes, GoM destroyed both SoR and EB. However, we put up a fight but the player doesn’t see it outside the lopsided victory. Statistics is what we need and a portal updated after each match. You have the data. Make the portal.

Player, guild, and alliance statistics updated every Saturday morning. To include, but not limited to:

Server win, loss, ratio
Top 25 player in kills
Top 25 player in kill by class
Top guilds based in player kills
Top alliances based on guilds and player kill
Top 25 in least deaths
Guild claiming
Longest tower or castle held, by guild or alliance
Longest siege

Basically what I’m saying is that those who play this format are probably looking for individual statistics that would make it more entertaining. It would help with your question about interest even if you are on the losing side for the week. You can still fight for individual pride knowing each thing you do is going to have a report that will adjust your / guild score.

Also note that WvW players have always felt PvE / Dungeon and the other PvP format of play got more attention. I don’t know what the player base is overall in regards to WvW but I know you have the data to generate this portal but maybe it isn’t on the to-do list. I just think it would be a lot of fun for bragging rights and maybe help out the overall issues we are facing. I mean my match up last week was bad, but not as bad as Jade Quarry vs. Fort Aspenwood vs. Maguuma. And if people don’t leave to other servers on their own and the top tier are complaining about queues, then maybe it is time to remove the mini WvW mist map and merge the two together.

Check out Amin’s video channel. He has a few video’s that show a skilled player meditation vs. multi players. There are a few others out there like Christo’s with the healaway, etc.

Basically it comes down to your comfort level and skill. Probably more important is knowing when to disengage and re-engage. We must choose more to run a DPS build, in my opinion, than most other classes so when a fight goes from 1 v 1 to 2 v 1 it gets a bit more tricky. When conditions start flying around and it is now 2 v 3 or more it only compounds further.

Playing smart and knowing when to cut and run is job one. I’ll just end it by saying playing a meditation guardian in WvW and either solo or small havoc can also be the most rewarding and fun.

Amins.3710:

Fun support build

Off topic: Your latest Necro video – well done.

On topic: Anyone try either of the new runes (Evasion or Radiance)? What about the new Superior Sigil of Incapacitation?

I’ve used the trapper set on my Ranger. Making both evasion and radiance to try on my Guardian.

Its a shame pets don’t stealth….

I’ll tell you from an alt ranger perspective (created at launch but only reached 80 about 2 months back – my main is a Guardian) – melee takes some skill to master. Regardless of sword/torch/axe/dagger or any combination there-of, it just flat out takes some learning compared to say LB/any other.

PvE I don’t think it matters and any of our grandmothers could play this game. However, s/tPvP or solo/tac WvW – melee isn’t easy compared to LB or other classes. That is just my personal opinion. Sword – that whole skill one concept is odd. Oh, and #2 Hornet Sting? WTF over, I can’t say how many times I ended up falling to my death because of my stupidity…

It is fun but just saying you may not see as many because:

A. the LB change
B. Higher learning curve

So those that use it either know it, are used to it, above average skill, determined, stubborn, or who knows. Just good.

If I recall correctly our active forum members said it wouldn’t pan out. Several tried builds around it and most if not all came back and said negative.

Would love to see Arena Net dig into their DB a bit and see how many active guardian players actually have it in play and what meta.

Just wondering how you handle speed, or does it matter?

Also, do you have to use sword/dagger?

EDIT: Never mind about the speed, I see the new trapper rune set provides that although it seems a bit wonky

EDIT 2: Why not use short bow since this appears to be using conditions

Ehecatl.9172:

If you’re dead set on bird trolling

Combine that with Hunter’s Call and your own bird pecking away and you’ll have a scene that would make Alfred Hitchkitten proud.

Both of these comments my friend are kitten funny and made me giggle.

Jef.6407:

- To kick off the brainstorm I’ll throw out this idea: When a player places a piece of siege they receive a stack of “Exhaustion” A stack of “Exhaustion” expires after three minutes If a player has three stacks of “Exhaustion” they can no longer place siege

There goes any form of small havoc squad play. They have to be able to drop siege and run between tower / camp to build quickly. Any form of exhaustion will kill this aspect of play.

I’m somewhat against the Exhaustion idea, though I admit it has some merit. I just think trolls will find a way around it. Any automatic system in place should be augmented by a way to report trolls to GMs and there should be a written policy to punish and/or ban these kinds of trolls.

I’m glad you are somewhat against it. Trolls will be trolls and this is a small problem in the bigger picture of WvW. Happens on a small subset of total server count and doesn’t impact any scoring. If someone can post statistics whereas a troll directly changed a match outcome I’d be willing to admit my view on it is wrong (not that it matters).

Reporting could work if you add in additional metrics such has player/enemy kills or the taking of towers or camps. You can again tie this to a commander tag and squad requirement to place siege. Havoc teams and solo roamers have tags so it would work and we now have color codes to choose from anyway.

Dropping siege and incurring a debuff will kill certain styles of play that are pretty popular (not everyone zergs). Restricting placement of siege will also be frustrating because not everyone places it in the same place.

Small problem and only really impacts a few servers.
Spy play is encouraged, you can cross server rep guilds and party.
Some of the proposed changes will hurt small party play (havoc teams).
Small percentage of players post/read forums so small idea count to pull from.
Trolls got what they wanted, 8 pages of talk all about them – we just gave them a gold star.

We ran into this on Ebay a while back and adapted. It wasn’t a game changer when compared to cross server party, repping, and public comm use. If any of the T1 – 6 servers are that frustrated by it then move to the lower servers.

Widebody.5071:

All that’s going to happen is that the vocal minority will flood the forums with prejudiced and biased suggestions geared in their favor with no regard to the community as a whole.

Yup, exactly this. Just look at Obsidian Sanctum…

Otokomae.9356:

John Corpening.9847:

A general note, when we are kicking around ideas like this we try not to get bogged down with numbers. 5 minutes, stacks, players etc. can easily be 1, 10, 100. That’s all balance and tuning as Tekyn pointed out. The question is if there is any number that would make it work. If there isn’t we can eliminate that idea.

Well, as many people have pointed out here, the biggest problem with exhaustion stacks, and voting to dismantle siege, etc, is that the optimum number of people to vote on something like that, or the optimum amount of siege someone can throw, or the number of things you have to do to wipe your exhaustion stacks really is different for most Tiers. In Tier 1, it would be easy for an anonymous Troll (one whose name we don’t all recognize) to find 4 people whom he can talk into voting down a piece of siege, because there are so many people around. On Tier 7 server, however, if a legitimate player needed 4 people to come vote down a piece of siege that might be 1/2 the population of the map at some hours!

Exactly. T1 – 6 are stacked 7×24 – 7 and below don’t have that luxury. In fact, this really isn’t a issue on T7 and below (although we do have a lot of spies and cross server guild repping going on).

Smaller servers play differently and not everyone runs with 50+ people. Personally I run 2 to 3 ninety percent of the time in our havoc group which is why I would vote no if we had to. We roam to flip a camp, supply up, then go to a tower, lay siege, and engage. Sometimes if we know time is critical, then we’ll drop 2 siege engines which means we now have to run back to the camp. Depending on how you spent your WvW talents you may, or may not, have chosen things to increase supply.

Exhaustion will make me move slower when I don’t have the time. It gives yet another advantage to the team I’m facing if they have more and I’m out numbered. Does that make sense? There has to be other ways.

Commander, squad, kill activity anything but exhaustion. I honestly believe it will have a more negative impact although I admit I can be incorrect.

Tekyn.5376:

Your original idea of having Exhaustion expire over time makes sense. However, the key to that system working is the duration and the number of stacks. Given any size group from 2 to 100 people there is a reasonable number of siege that they will need to place within a reasonable number of minutes. Figuring out those numbers and developing a scale that works for all size groups is completely feasible.

-Tekyn

Negative. There is a thing called time and distance. Any form of exhaustion is going to disrupt tiers 7 and below and small havoc squads. If you are on a higher server, say 6 and above, maybe considering moving down if you are that frustrated. You still haven’t addressed the cross server party / groups, guild reps, comm, or spies. They have to run to camps depending on what they can carry and have a time constraint for enemy reaction.

Consider the commander tag and squad option to deploy siege. Small duo, trio, or a group of 5 in a havoc squad typically have someone who ponied up for the tag anyway so it won’t hurt. And if they don’t, it is a good investment or small price to pay.

Also think about player statistics and history. Maybe we are going about this all wrong and revisit our portal and player statistics. Adding a few columns collecting siege statistics could help tie in reporting and ban/vacations from WvW. Someone with zero kills (ambient creature, player, yak, et al) over time + player reporting would surely equate to a troll. Maybe tie it to the battle historian such that you enter the map, visit historian, timer starts or resets values. Kills and types get added, along with daily and you can go from there.

We have options that don’t hinder speed.

Make a requirement to be part of a squad to place siege.

Small havoc groups usually have someone with commander status even though they don’t display it. So one of the members tags up, form up a squad, and they can play. No worry about anything else.

It would also encourage the use of color tags.

Trolls could still form squads but they would need additional members (guilty parties) but would be easier to spot. May make player reporting, timeouts, easier.

morrolan.9608:

To arenanet how about you actually be the game developers you’re meant to be and provide possible solutions which we can then comment on.

This is the whole problem with the CDI process you get ideas from players but you then filter them and wind up with an interpretation that is consistently not what players wanted.

And a small subset of the actual player base at that.

Well, we can do what they did good old obsidian sanctum and just remove siege all together. It wasn’t really grief per say when you prevented people from getting the chest by hatchet, spell, sword, or siege. Yet enough people complained and now it is no longer allowed and blocked. This would solve the problem although drastic, yes?

Want to enter tower? Melee or spell it down. You play a Thief, well, give them some rope and a grappling hook. Mix things up a bit.

storiessave.3807:

Crapgame.6519:

Also, I’d like to see just how big of a issue this is and across what servers?

It affects T1 servers the most. We often have queues, so if a troll is draining every tower and keep on a map of supply, we can’t port out, grab supply, and port back. Queues are worse during tournaments, which makes it even harder.

This is what I assumed. So it is somewhat of a small issue in the grand scheme of things due to T1 range of servers. That, in of itself, is another issue altogether and should maybe be their focus. Wall clock coverage shouldn’t dictate points yet it does. We saw similar situations back in 2001 with DaOC and relic raids and what alliance had Oceanic players.

They addressed / fixed the tournament issue. It will take them all of about 5 minutes to complete and move on.

I understand your comment/concern on queues but honestly these seems like a smaller issue at the end of the date when one takes a step back and looks at the state of WvW in general.

Title is asking for suggestions on Siege trolling yet we allow the cross server party to communicate. I spy, right? Maybe it is time to look at guilds, guild claiming, commander squads, and formation of alliances to manage this issue. But some of these solutions will hurt the play of havoc squads or lower populated servers.

We didn’t have this issue in DaOC and siege but then again stealth classes could climb walls /rollseyes

Big brother doesn’t need to get involved and don’t add any more client side code to address this. Most of the options are going to hurt smaller groups or havoc teams. Plain and simple, not everyone who drops siege wants to zerg, is part of the zerg, or even runs a commander tag. Now, they may have a commander tag but just don’t show it.

So, how do you plan to address that?

Also, I’d like to see just how big of a issue this is and across what servers? Yes, Ebay has had its fair share of trolls but ask yourself just how big of a issue this really is and if it is a game breaker. Because personally, I’d like to see that focus paid elsewhere in the WvW space because we all know it is lacking.

Add the name who dropped it, allow reporting, when a threshold is exceeded ban them from WvW for 24 hours. If they do it again ban them from the client for 48 hours.

Anything else, in my opinion, is going to ruin the game for a subset of players because not everyone runs in the blob or even has one…

There are trolls, and then there are spies.

Personally I see this impacting small teams of 2 or 3 that are taking towers while mostly impacting the top 6 servers. There is another underlying problem here that is being overlooked, maybe start there.

Besides the game design by nature allows this and some people are just taking advantage of it. Right or wrong, I think you have a different issue but that is just my opinion from a person who runs a small havoc team.

Yep, I see it often. Only in WvW though.

Since this content release I’ve noticed lag much like that of launch. Running solo I know when a enemy is near since you can feel the lag even if it is only one or two people on the map. It is significantly worse when a large blob of people pass by, friend or foe. No matter, the lag is there.

So whatever they did with this patch or infrastructure change killed performance in WvW. And no, it isn’t system related of the client. I didn’t have any of these issues prior to. Only when this new patch dropped.

oxtred.7658:

In pve and smale scall roaming berserker is viable, but when you’re zergbusting in higher tiers ( where blobs are easily 50+) you need an anchor to take aggro and spam stability without dying. We use a berserker guard in our 3 man group, but we’re usually not taking fights above 30 players. In pvp, a bunker guard is a plus to any team, and medit has a totally different role usually more suited for other classes ( thieves, mesmers)

Yup. Even on middle tiers the same rule applies. Just too much conditional damage and stability you need to navigate through. And the rangers changes with longbow make situational awareness even more crucial. A pair of rangers with comm can snipe targets off pretty quick. Almost like fishing for trout in a barrel

I typically say find your comfort level and adjust accordingly. Some skilled players here get by going full berserker but it isn’t for everyone. I roam with it but lose more than I should probably (skill level). Duo to 5 I’ll mix in a but more sustain or go full support and let them do the dirty work

Depends on the meta you are playing. I believe in WvW there are too many conditions so it is more a game of speed.

Jessica Boettiger.2563:

Basically removing the achievement requirement during a tournament is an experimental step we took to reduce the incentive for achievement grinding. We want people to play WvW, and not focus too heavily on satisfying achievement requirements.

If we find that players prefer having numerous things to check off a list, then we would certainly take that feedback into account and consider it for future tournaments.

I think for those of us who only focus on the WvW style of play it seems watered down and easy. If you look at it from our side we put in as many hours as the folks who play PvE yet they have a better reward system. Maybe that is what they need, I don’t know but I do like to have weapon and armor skins just like they do. That is only cosmetic though and I think there is something else I’d focus on instead if I had the time and money.

Consider expanding the web portal for players and guilds. Consider adding an alliance feature for guilds and servers in case we want to team up. Yes, we can do that now and it does work but an alliance would make it cool and add a wow factor. You break down the PLAYERs effort in the war both as a individual and a team. Yaks escorted, keeps defended, etc. Include group, party, and solo play. Bragging rights for weekly stats. Most siege used, most towers capped, death to kill (plant/sink) ratio, OS Jump Puzzle, etc.

If you honestly want to give us rewards outside of achievements then give us a reason to actually play outside cosmetics. We are already here mind you this is just something to add flavor and interest. Weekly reports up seems easy enough to me, you have the data already. Just hire a few college interns to write some html and sql, off you go.

Lastly, fix the JP in EBG. There really is no reason for that great of a place to be idle. Put something in there. A gypsy, NPC, something that sells something you need to do something related only to WvW. You have height, mystic wells, traps, and above all a dark room. I think you guys and gals can have a party one Friday night after work, have a few adult beverages, and come up with some incredible options for people to fight over. Random NPC weekly with phat loots to buy in exchange for something we have a boatload of…

Anyway – I know you know this. WvW are hard core and only here because we lack or yearn for a older meta of play called RvR. Sure, not everyone, but most of us I’d wager know what I’m talking about. Make claiming a tower worthwhile. Defending worthwhile. Give me more of something for making a difference or bedding down with the enemy…

Ehecatl.9172:

Azaruil.3406:

Let us compare it to eviscerate which was already considered somewhat overpowered.

You don’t need to build adrenaline.
You can hit from 1500 range.
You can pierce targets to hit more than 1 person.
It stacks vulnerability.

The biggest issue I would say is the 1500 range. There should be a trade-off from being able to attack from that far. Either lowered damage, slower attacks, higher cooldowns etc.

The trade off is the longbow isn’t riddled with spare evades, blocks, reflects, crowd control, and mobility skills like melee weapons tend to be. They have one knock back and one stealth, both of which rely on a single projectile hitting their target. Longbow doesn’t have any reliable defensive tools that the enemy can’t negate with a dodge or block, or even just side stepping it really.

This means that if you get close enough to apply pressure the ranger has to switch to a different weapon and can no longer burst effectively. That’s the drawback to using a ranged burst weapon. You can’t have your burst and survival skills on the same weapon set.

Yup – you win the thread.

Atalas.4965:

Sebrent.3625:

Reflects work well.
Blocks work well.
Evades work well.
Dodges work well.
Immunities work well.
Interrupting works well.
Terrain works well.
Putting your summonable/pet in between works well.

… man … if only people had some way to deal with it … lol …

So what you are saying is You can deal with the very low skill requirement ranger player if you make a build that can’t do much damage and it’s only good vs this new ranger (which will soon get nerfed btw)

Or you are saying that You can do well against a very low skilled player if you are a really good player… because trust me, good rangers know when to use their skills, they don’t spam all the time so you can just dodge it

What he is probably saying is that there are options on the table regardless of class to counter.

I will say I agree 100% that good rangers post patch are crazy good right now. I say kudos to them for staying the course with the class. They deserve it.

Gamgee.8612:

titoroco.8049:

Gamgee.8612:

titoroco.8049:

Gamgee.8612:

It’s just because everybody rolls a ranger atm I think. 1v1 I don’t think there would be any trouble, but in our group yesterday(3ppl) we constantly face groups of 6 or 7 rangers spamming this skill which we could endure for a while and we did our best but nah, that was ridiculous.

LOL what ? even if u are 3 vs 7 w/e class u wont endure, no matter if they are mesmer thief ele warrior…. so what is the point of what u say ? u just got owned by a big group, in the end is the same if u fight 4 mesmer 3 thief is ridiculous still

Lol. You obviously don’t do much WvW. It’s perfectly possible to kill 7 people with 3 guys. Damage and water fields, you can do wonders.

lol u may be wrong beacuse im from a hardcore gvg guild from t2 , so i know what im talking about, is possible ? yes but ur point is dumb if u say now ranger can kill only u… if that ur point then u are simple bad to the game, beacuse u lose to a class easy to kill ….l2p

Oh you’re from a hardcore GvG guild from T2? So you’re a zerger. Then you don’t know what it is like to play with 3 people for so long and often that you know what they think before they speak it in ts. Judge Legends[JDGE] is my guild and we simply have made it our thing to be small and annoying, it’s been nearly 2 years of constantly outnumbered fights and you don’t think I’ve occasionally beaten odds that even exceeds 3v7? I’m confident enough in my experience to say that I know it’s not a L2P issue. I never have any trouble losing to good opponents. It’s ok. But not that fight, that wasn’t ok. I also stated that Ranger is ok 1v1, it’s not OP in itself. But it’s OP when they ball together like that.

Also, L2Spell. I can see where your going but it’s very hard to decode.

aderfiaAE.2641:

rf is easier to be dodged now and why should they nerf it anyway? war can do more than 12k dmg in 2 sec. Ranger was just weaker and now that he is balanced with the rest classes people r crying. GG

The single problem is the amount of rangers in WvW. The rangers themselves are ok I guess.

I solo roam on a guardian. I play support guardian when duo or trio to bust zergs.

If you can’t adapt then you should uninstall. This isn’t a LB issue. It is a new and exciting change that many rangers have been waiting for. It will die down in a bit when people, like you, learn to dodge, duck, roll, reflect, hug a tree, or cast retaliation.

Right now the only other group that is upset is PETA due to the guardians killing more ambient creatures when teleporting via sword 2 or casting JI to escape said RF.

I’ll rest my case now.

Azaruil.3406:

Let us compare it to eviscerate which was already considered somewhat overpowered.

You don’t need to build adrenaline.
You can hit from 1500 range.
You can pierce targets to hit more than 1 person.
It stacks vulnerability.

The biggest issue I would say is the 1500 range. There should be a trade-off from being able to attack from that far. Either lowered damage, slower attacks, higher cooldowns etc.

It should have a range of 2000 in my opinion.

Peow peow.2189:

a long range skill that hits this hard is kittened. Make a ranger melee skill that hits hard for sure, but at a distance – pure stupidity.

Man – hope you never played DaOC back in the day… You want to talk about range, play a runemaster. Mofo’s had range for miles

Anyway – let us make it fair then, huh? Let us remove range all together. Would that make you happy? We can all run around in town cloths and tin foil hats and play patty cake.

McFribble.2349:

Sebrent.3625:

You can complain … or you can adapt.

When I get ripped because I don’t have enough condition cleanses … I slot another in my spec and go back to fighting in that match.

It works much better than if I came here and griped because I died to conditions because I didn’t have enough cleanses.

Same thing here when you have 0 defenses and don’t dodge roll, use terrain, etc. when a Range shoots you.

The difference here is that Condition cleanse helps against almost every class in the game. Reflect works well against LB Rangers. If you can’t see the differences here, I don’t know what to tell you. The ENTIRE kittenING GAME shouldn’t have to adapt itself around one class. That is a sign that one class is doing something it probably shouldn’t be doing.

Also, any of you Rangers saying “use terrain to block LOS” are idiots. Its bad enough that a Ranger on high ground as a melee build is literally impossible to counter, but to assume that there is always going to BE terrain to block LOS is grasping at some seriously worn out straws.

I’m not sure I understand what you are saying here. You are saying you can’t use terrain to block? I don’t know because last night out in WvW I was able to use it to my advantage as did the other rangers I engaged in. So LB vs. LB we both used the landscape to our advantage.

On my guardian I used terrain to counter it along with wall of reflection and retaliation. Didn’t matter who had the higher ground it was a fair fight because I had 3 different options to counter it and that isn’t even going down the path of using inanimate creatures (white bunnies, eagles, etc – sorry PETA) that I could have used to jump or teleport to.

Honestly, remember my main is a guardian, if you can’t adjust to this simple change to LB then you have a bigger issue. My concern isn’t the LB change, it is the mesmers torment/scepter change that I dislike.

Shanks.2907:

I’m one of those who dusted off their mule ranger and tested out the longbow.

And I’ve got to say it’s super OP against low skill players. That’s it. Any player with half a brain can dodge RF, reflect it back or LoS it. Where the LB play shines is in team work. Maps like Legacy of Foefire where you can move between points quickly utilizing 1500 range to sway 1v1/2v2s on far points. An unsuspected RF from the flank while CC in a 1v1 is devastating, and the pressure can quickly be put on a different point.

So it all comes down to tactics. A longbow ranger who plays conquest well with his team is now viable. A ranger who takes far point on his own and 1v1s is a bad LB ranger. If you’re traited out for max RF damage you are pretty much a sitting duck in close range. It takes 6/6/x/x/x to pull out that kind of damage, though I have wanted to try 6/x/x/x/6 for quickness/RF lolz.

And with tactics, I’ve been able to get close with my main (medi guard) and open up on them. Though, the LB are a pain now and have to be dealt with accordingly. You can’t just ignore them.

This is true thought playing any class. Any somewhat skilled player vs. a PvE WvW achievement player for example is a free bag. Any somewhat skilled play vs. a upscale, new to the class player, or just average player will be a free bag 75% of the time. Just how it works.

Then there are those who we have all come across, regardless of class, are just unbeatable. Why? Because they are just good, above average, players. They know what to do when. Either by animation, buffs, or just kittening luck. You can’t beat those players with a OP class let alone a low yield nuke.

Sometimes we just have to admit there are better players. The RF/LB change may make those quality players seem like God or OP but suck it up and learn to dodge.

Kazuto.2798:

Fluffball.8307:

-snip-

I had a Ranger, deleted it, and don’t have any character slots for it anymore. I’m not about to buy another or delete a character just to duel. Also, I’m not talking about 1v1s, I’m talking about realistic WvW encounters. How many times out of all fights you encounter are 1v1s and stay as 1v1s and before you say most of them, running from an outnumbered fight is still a fight you encountered.

Sure, 1v1 against a LB Ranger shouldn’t be too difficult and is most certainly not OP. It is annoying, but not OP. But mix in the Ranger in a group fight, now that is not only annoying but is stupidly powerful.

Also to you people saying I am “complaining”, I would like to see your counterargument, if you are intelligent enough to make one on your own rather than slewing mindless insults.

Crapgame.6519:

-snip-

Cool, you slotted a reflect. Not every class has the the luxury of being able to slot a reflect. I, maining a Mesmer, slot Decoy/Blink/Mantra of Resolve. Take any of those away and I lose overall survivability. If I have to slot Feedback just for Rangers, then it would be pretty obvious how stupidly powerful it has become. Same with the other classes, some don’t have easy access to reflects, some don’t even have reflects. If we have to use a reflect to be able to fight these Rangers, you already know.

Yes, I had to slot it. Not every class has it, good. However, they have something else and guess what, I don’t have that It is actually fair. You and I both know we can’t have it all regardless of how cool it would be. It is after all a choice, give and take. Risk of running alone or in a small group and I said it early on. You should have brought a guardian or someone who can pop a reflect

Ok, new example I don’t slot a reflect. Ok? DPS/Zerk build I play from time to time. I dodge. If there are more then one I dodge twice or maybe swap weapons and get a 3rd in. Use the ground or trees. Hell, I used plenty of trees last night I thought I was a kittening lumberjack for a minute or two. I’ll then pop focus 5/shield and JI to them, cast smite condition, swap to GS, and go through my burst rotation. If they are full glass/zerk they will go down. If they don’t I’ll GS 5 and pull them in and start the dance over until they die or I do.

I will agree that facing a couple rangers in a posse over team speak who are working together, sharing targets, is pretty kitten powerful at the moment. I get it and actually agree. But do you honestly believe that is any different that say 2 warriors and a guardian or any other group of somewhat talented players?

I don’t but will be the first to say I can be utterly wrong.

Fluffball.8307:

Crapgame.6519:

Mind if I ask what is the purpose of the ranger trapper from a WvW point of view?

Flame Trap and Spike Trap do a lot of condi damage, plus traps can be traited to be thrown almost like a grenade. You augment it with the usual ranger weapons like sword, dagger, axe, torch, even short bow, etc. The other traps have their uses but this is 101.

You can use them in zergs. But… eh. The one place I do suggest them is in open-wall tower defense. Even as a mostly power ranger I will swap to traps and slap them down on a wall gap.

Thanks Fluffball. Appreciate the information.

Ok, back to the top because I actually have a serious question (Ranger alt here). Mind if I ask what is the purpose of the ranger trapper from a WvW point of view? I main a guardian who is pretty much a solo roamer / DPS or group of 5 supporter. I’ve not played traps only condition and long bow (before patch) so I’m ignorant of the play style with traps.

I’m just wondering how it is supposed to work. In a small roaming group are you just slowing the enemy down with them and letting others do the work/kill? Or is it a troll build (no disrespect) meaning you prevent them from doing something but can’t finish the job by killing.

I’m looking at that build posted earlier but not a huge fan of sword because of hornet sting and leap (I can’t tell you how many times I’ve jumped to my death ). Just seemed like a interesting play style my ignorance aside.

Kazuto.2798:

I’m not about to read two pages of people arguing, but I did see some arguments that I would like to refute.

“Dodge properly” – I’ve already said this, it takes two dodges to dodge a full rapid fire, and once it is off CD, we still would only have enough endurance to dodge some of the next volley.

“Stealth” – The stupid skill tracks, m-rons. Not only that, but most of the Rangers out there run Sic’ Em, a insta-win faceroll button against any stealth class.

“Line of sight” – How many times are you going to be able to LOS out in the open world where most fights take place (in WvW at least)? Most times, a Ranger is going to be able to land all shots from a LB.

“Block” – How many blocks that don’t end once hit do you think players have? Some classes don’t even have blocks.

“Reflect” – You really think that we should use reflects when we can slot something more useful like condition removal or stun breaks just for one class? If we are forced to do that, then it is a clear example of it being OP.

“Gap Close” – All you need to do is knock them back, use that one lightning dodge, turn around and use your swoop then take out your LB again. And before you say they can just gap close again, they’ll probably be dead from your pew pew. It takes CDs to be able to gap close and usually the ones that can cover 1200 – 1500 (traited) range are usually the most crucial “oh kitten” buttons that have long CDs, not everyone is a Warrior with a GS.

“Blind” – … How many classes can blind multiple shots within 3 seconds?

“We are just sitting there when we rapid fire” – I’m pretty darn sure you can move while you are rapid firing.

“We aren’t using anything else while we rapid fire” – You are using rapid fire, forcing the other player to either eat it, use their utilities, or use their dodges. Not only that, your rapid fire is on a short CD.

If you can just sit back and shoot players to death, that takes no skill. You hit one button on your LB and your target is either down, low health, or used crucial dodges or CDs to evade your stupid low CD ranged equivalent to hundred blades. It was a stupid skill before the patch and an even more stupider skill after the patch.

By no means am I saying the LB is uncounterable, it is and is pretty weak if your target can get close and stay close.. IF the target even gets the chance to get close.

So far every ranger this afternoon using a LB/RF against my Guardian in WvW has failed. Rapid Fire all you want, and I have a ranger mind you, but once you start I’m going to toss up Wall of Reflection on my Guardian and then engage.

The point people are making to counter the it is OP claim is that you can’t have everything and expect to win. You build for glass, you are glass in return. You build for sustain, then it is a fight over duration. If you build for support, well, you better hope the other play gets bored and leaves or don’t make a mistake.

The change yesterday has counters. It isn’t a L2P thing. It really is about situation awareness, knowing when to dodge, and counters.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Templar.4512:

Chris, you may be proud, but there’s been an uproar lately with the latest changes. You’ve also ignored the many complaints about the last ‘feature pack’.

I know you’re required to say those PR things, but are you honestly proud of the amazing team? These guys haven’t even put out half the content other teams managed to, and that’s having taken into account the many skins from the gemstore.

Yes absolutely I am proud of this team. I am sorry that you don’t agree.

This group of ladies and gentlemen has put out amazing content at an amazing rate.

And no i am not talking any PR I am a developer.

So to be clear, yes i am proud of this team, i am proud of our work, i am proud of how we support each other, i am proud of how much we care for the game and the community. You can twist that statement as much as you like but that is my stance.

Chris

I don’t have a dog in this fight. Having said that I also know that only a small percentage of current players actively post in the forums compared to the larger percentage who don’t.

What I do know is that you and your team have all the data in front of you within any number of databases. A few simple queries prior to the patch will give you a baseline. Take those same couple of queries and run them weekly post patch and then compare and contrast. I think that data will yield enough information to quiet this storm and do the right thing.

Personally speaking because that is what I do for a living, I’m interested in the data pre and post patch. I’d be interested to see how the various meta’s of play break down, most to least boss kills, dungeons cleared, and puzzles jumped. I’d like to know point spread vs. wall clock coverage in server match-ups for WvW, and I would like to see population number across the board.

Just me and my $0.02 worth.

Brutaly.6257:

Shanks.2907:

It’s too bad on the evasion runes. On first glance they looked great for how I want to play. With an ICD of 10s the boons should be 5s, to match most uptime on other runes (runes of pack ~50% uptime on swiftness/fury).

It would be nice if they made it to pvp, but they could use a couple second buff.

My thought exactly, they looked great and the concept is very interesting for a guardian.

Yeah 5 sec uptime and a larger aoe and they would be valid but three seconds is just to little.

That recepie costed 19 gold to get and the runes are account bound on pick up as well, lol.

You got ripped, I paid 5g last night. But in the end I got punked because I bought it, then gave it to a crafter, then gave mats for 12, then we both found out in the end they are account bound How dumb is that…

Or I’m an idiot for not reading I guess /boggle.

Sebrent.3625:

(3) Players that were already very good Rangers before the buff … they are scary now … very scary. These were the players beating people with longbow before the patch. Now they are burying people with it post-patch. Kudos to them.

This is so very true. It is actually true with all classes honestly but from what I saw last night you can see a very clear line between first time and long time long bow users. It will become more evident a couple weeks from now but I was able to see clearly who mained a Ranger vs. those of us having them as alts.

Gamgee.8612:

Cufufalating.8479:

Gamgee.8612:

titoroco.8049:

Gamgee.8612:

It’s just because everybody rolls a ranger atm I think. 1v1 I don’t think there would be any trouble, but in our group yesterday(3ppl) we constantly face groups of 6 or 7 rangers spamming this skill which we could endure for a while and we did our best but nah, that was ridiculous.

LOL what ? even if u are 3 vs 7 w/e class u wont endure, no matter if they are mesmer thief ele warrior…. so what is the point of what u say ? u just got owned by a big group, in the end is the same if u fight 4 mesmer 3 thief is ridiculous still

Lol. You obviously don’t do much WvW. It’s perfectly possible to kill 7 people with 3 guys. Damage and water fields, you can do wonders.

Winning such a heavily outnumbered fight entirely depends on the opponents being bad. Either generally just bad, or having 0 teamwork skills. It can be done, but no matter how good you are you are still gambling on poor opponents.

Yes. In this case it was 7 rangers doing 1.5K range volleys of doom all at once. Wouldn’t matter if they were the most skilled players in the world or the worst. They only had to press one button.

See the problem isn’t that the skill was buffed. It was buffed, but not hysterically. The problem is the hype that makes 50% of WvWers suddenly go on their Rangers and press the nr 2 skill. If this was done before patch it would turn out the same way, but nobody ever did.

So… STOP THE HYPE. STOP SAYING IT’S OP AND NOBODY WILL USE IT. FOR GOD’S SAKE. IT’S NOT FUNNEH.

Crapgame.6519:

Those who said they faces zergs with multi rangers, what are your guardians doing? They on vacation or all trying to DPS via their new changes?

I can’t say how many rangers committed suicide last night while using rapid fire into my Wall of Reflection. Personally, I love the change to LB. It was long over due and still needs work in my opinion. I think the range should be increased for better tower defense.

If that was aimed at me I have a simple answer, we don’t have a guardian.

No, no really directed to you. More to the general populace who roamed around last night while encountering a higher than average number of longbow rangers. I played both sides of the fence with my Guardian and Ranger.

I found dodge helps counter the LB issue as did my Wall of Reflection when I was roaming on my Guardian. If I was successful in closing the distance on the ranger 9 out of 10 times I’d win the fight. I think I faced a couple very skilled rangers that I killed. They would have killed me before the patch and anyone else I’d wager because they played very well regardless of any patch changes.

Swapping to my ranger I found that I personally had a easier time killing people using the LB. If I was to be honest, it wasn’t any changes per say just me being more selective of my targets while taking advantage of the LB change. Situation awareness is key and I can now plunk people off who don’t have it. That was fun and stupid is supposed to hurt.

Other than that – I think people going the route of glass canon and longbow will have high risk/reward. Because if you miss or don’t down the subject, and they close the gap, death will surely follow. But this is coming from a person who mains a guardian and only plays his 80 ranger for a break.

Those who said they faces zergs with multi rangers, what are your guardians doing? They on vacation or all trying to DPS via their new changes?

I can’t say how many rangers committed suicide last night while using rapid fire into my Wall of Reflection. Personally, I love the change to LB. It was long over due and still needs work in my opinion. I think the range should be increased for better tower defense.

TooBz.3065:

No, but set yourself up with condition damage, take all the trap traits. Throw out each trap just after / as stealth ends, and get 15 to 16 seconds of endless stealth. You may not kill anyone, but they won’t be able to find you.

Lol. This made me giggle.

I have a Ranger alt who runs a SB/Condi build and a LB/Zerk build. Running LB last night was fun. It was also fun seeing a metric ton of Rangers out and about. My personal opinion is that it will die out within 20 or so days and be back to normal. In the WvW meta of play you have to have gear at some point for balance. It will take some time for some players to find that comfort level. Other classes time to counter.

I also main a Guardian whom I also hot lapped a few rounds last night. I can tell you I also saw a metric ton of those guys running around due to their changes. Ironically enough I think the same way. We will see many more Guardians than normal for the next 20 or so days while they test out the changes then it will be back to normal. Mains will play mains.

Why do I post here? Simple. I have both and while playing on my Guardian the Rangers didn’t bother me much. 2 or more with focus fire was interesting but a simple solution for me was:

A. Wall of Reflection
I can’t say how many rangers committed suicide

B. Retaliation
Again continue to shoot equals suicide or me swapping weapons and taking a bag

Its fun either way but I don’t think many will stay around because of the risk factor. It isn’t always going to be the way it was last night and today. Just one mans opinion.

It needs a intercept or guard feature like the Thane or other classes had in DaOC. Place guard on a party member, if they are near you – you intercept one attack…

Not too difficult to come up with unique ways to make the shield actually more useful.

But something as simple has a soft symbol slow, chill, or other form of CC would have went miles to prevent disengagement. Which is something that happens to us often. Other classes can disengage at will. We, on the other hand, are forced to use Traveler runes for speed or gimmicks like teleporting to inanimate animals.

Give more, gain less, is how it currently stands. Staff mobility on 3 is lame. They could have also revered that stupid change/fix and we’d be happy although still don’t want to be pigeon holed into a particular weapon for mobility.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

yLoon.5289:

I’ve played every class to lvl 80 except for Thief. I was like you before, but then i realized, Guardian is just so awesome. =D

My comments to you is : Please delete your Guardian ASAP or try other class and realized how ignorance you are.

Guardian Tips : Ring of Ward in the middle of gang fight.

Ah yes, Ring of Warding. Place it down and watch people dodge through it, leap through it, shadowstep or teleport through it, or just walk through it with stability.

It makes a pretty ring on the ground, but along with Line of Warding is mostly useless against anyone who can dodge.

Thanks.

True. But you have to admit not everyone dodges let alone knows what to do when directional or other barriers are in front. Just one of those not everyone remembers, knows, or heat of the moment things.

But yes, I’d say that is a great counter point no more than staff 5. But it is something never the less and there are other ways to use it with similar effects at times.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Crapgame.6519:

I hope you do delete your Guardian. Heck, do it right now. Please.

Seriously though, stop being a drama queen. We are not the best nor are we the worst and to be perfectly honest the game has bigger issues than the Guardian and class balance. There are three different meta’s of play and every kitten one is borked at the moment after almost 2 years of retail play.

I agree we do have issues but in the meta of play I run, WvW, running a full blown glass canon zerker guardian, solo, I feel its fine. This is just my opinion and it is subjective but I can win, and lose, 1 on 1 as it should be out in the open field. I have a “chance” to win in many 2 v 1’s I engage in. Do I like how some classes can reset at will? No. Do I like how other classes have more sustainability? No. Do I like how I have to give up more defensive abilities to do equal burst? No. Base health? No.

No, it isn’t easy for Guardians. And Lord knows we lost many a solid community member (trait specs, videos, etc) because of the class wonky’ness. But at the end of the day it is what it is.

Think you just made the argument for the people wanting buffs.

Ya were not the best but guardians could definitely use some changes

I wouldn’t disagree with change but we’d probably agree the slightest change can, and usually does, put us in OP category. My personal opinion is that it is a impossible nut to crack when balancing a trait system like this let alone any hybrid class. Sure, they don’t have a primary tank/threat holder or healer but they leave it open for us to design one. That is the Guardian’s plight in that we give and take more than the rest of the class base and are supposed to be happy with those cards.

To complicate matters we have two heavy armor types that overlap and both be designed to command up front and push or provide support. I’m not really focused much on PVE because it isn’t what I play and what I have, didn’t appear to be difficult compared to say PVE specific games. WvW is the concern when trying to balance our class because we have already been down that rat hole upon launch.

If it was me, and it isn’t, I’d just make sPvP and WvW equal in talent and gear and leave PvE separate. I’ve just reduced the amount of time I need to balance classes by 33%. Take that time and put it into a web portal for player, guild, and alliance statistics to include weekly, monthly, player, class, among other visual displays. Then work on maps and rewards to allow equal rewards between PvE and PvP for textures and other things.

At the end of the day deleting a character isn’t the solution. Speaking up, not purchasing gems, or taking a break is.

I hope you do delete your Guardian. Heck, do it right now. Please.

Seriously though, stop being a drama queen. We are not the best nor are we the worst and to be perfectly honest the game has bigger issues than the Guardian and class balance. There are three different meta’s of play and every kitten one is borked at the moment after almost 2 years of retail play.

I agree we do have issues but in the meta of play I run, WvW, running a full blown glass canon zerker guardian, solo, I feel its fine. This is just my opinion and it is subjective but I can win, and lose, 1 on 1 as it should be out in the open field. I have a “chance” to win in many 2 v 1’s I engage in. Do I like how some classes can reset at will? No. Do I like how other classes have more sustainability? No. Do I like how I have to give up more defensive abilities to do equal burst? No. Base health? No.

No, it isn’t easy for Guardians. And Lord knows we lost many a solid community member (trait specs, videos, etc) because of the class wonky’ness. But at the end of the day it is what it is.

Well, the good news is that they didn’t come here and post a suggestion, then say some power guardian, then suggest an idea no one wanted and even stated on their own it wasn’t a great idea only to implement lame idea anyway…

Then ignore the countless pages of follow-ups. No, I don’t think they will do another round of that mess for sure.

More of the same. Good spot, balanced. Probably a overly played class that dips into duplication of heavy armor warrior class. Can’t really do much to us that would otherwise make us over powered. Honestly at this point they need to tone down the rest of the classes to our level of play but that won’t happen. So….we are hosed.

Charak.9761:

can do the same with a hammer, dunno why people keep using that argument for shield… you’re using one weapon simply for one classes utility skill… much value.

Because Hammer takes time compared to shield 5 being instant. Both have their places regardless and I wouldn’t say it is for one class or particular use. I do agree though that it isn’t great and situational.

darkace.8925:

guardiaN.1640:

shield 4 should give aegis besides the protection, shield 5 needs way shorter cd and better heal.

Something. Anything. I long ago came to terms with the fact that the Guardian’s focus works like a shield and the shield works like a focus, but I still think Shield 5 sucks. Sure, it has its niche uses, but I’d love to have the option to swap it out for something else (preferably something that feels like a shield skill).

Shield 5 is actually good for front line fights. It is a pusher.

I agree that Focus and Shield are back @sswards. I’d like to see the focus removed all together honestly. But hey, this is the world of might and magic so that little wonky looking thing is all of a sudden better than a curved, molded, 6 foot by 4 foot piece of steel and wood