Guild Wars 2

Olba.5376:

Your suggestion kinda sucks. Let me make a full list of the things that go wrong with it.

1. By making it cost initiative, you either force CnD thieves to get more initiative regen or they will be locked out of the full damage. That’s going to affect the diversity in traits and utilities, as you will have to get some initiative regen if you want the full damage.

You’ll spec for ini regen only if you want… no one is forcing you to go for “full damage bs” and waste all your ini… a plain bs can have 0 cost (as it is now).
It will be a matter of player skill: if you are a bad thief, and you always go for full damage but you find someone that can counter it, you are screwed.

1. The initiative cost is not an issue for the Thief. We have tons of ways to increase our initiative regeneration.
2. With your suggested damage being that high, and with some initiative regeneration, the end result is that your thief is going to backstab you once and HS you once or twice and you’re dead.

This will work against bad players… and again, if you spec for full ini regen you lose defensive skill or other good traits.

Of course, there I assume that the damage and speed of charging is dynamic: You cannot get more damage by using longer stealths or by having more initiative. And of course, that the costs adapt to the maximum amount of initiative you have.

no. It will have to be dynamic…. time related.
Something like 2 ini/sec if you have 7 seconds of stealth remaining you can charge a 14ini backstab.

So what I am seeing here is a change not to the end result, but to how we get there. Right now, you might see thieves using backstab more than once. With this change, they will use it once, regenerate some initiative and heartseeker you to death.

now everyone can bs and spam hs … if bs misses or is evaded/blocked … ok, let’s try again, with the change only high ini regen can deal great damage (if they can) bs and spam hs… it will change the gameplay a lot (at least for BS thieves)

you are saying bs damage is not high ?
are we playing the same game ?

it would not be a nerf it would be a “make it more skill based” and for skill I mean player’s skill.

Raege.1069:

Daendur.2357:

Raege.1069:

Wait. You’re saying that it’s okay for people who only do Dungeons/Orr to have the cake and eat it too, but it’s no okay for WvW player to have that? Great logic there dude.

Their goal is make money … and they do it.
Your goal is kill other player/conquer keeps … and you do it.
Maybe you can’t do both.

Goal? I think everyone’s goal is to have fun. Dungeoneers have fun by doing dungeons and WvWrs have fun by doing WvW. The question is, why is Dungeoneer’s fun worth more than my fun?

Because they chose the easy way…

btw one of my friends killed an invader a couple of weeks ago and he dropped a precursor (too bad it was a focus) and sold it for 80g…. a lot of upgrades.

Luiz Swordbreaker.6547:

Daendur.2357:

DRAMAAAAAA bring me popcorn plz!

Do you realize you’ve been insta-replying to anyone on this topic that had a comment to do with useless comments, failed logic, and just generally childish responses for 4 hours now? (and counting)
Did school get canceled or something? Move on to troll some other topic already.

You think it’s failed logic, just because you don’t get it… not my problem.
btw, are you stalking me? omg i’m afraid…

Gytis.1637:

Okay so if you couldn’t 1 shot then it seems that this would only result bad for thief wouldn’t it ?

Now: you backstab someone and

1. hit – 50% hp left, you’re doing damage with other skills
2. dodge – 100% hp, doing damage with other skills.

Your suggestion: hold BS to max and :

1. hit – 50% hp left, can’t kill – run.
2. dodge – 100% hp, lost all initiative – run.

Nope more something like:

hold BS to max and:
#hit – 0 to 10%hp left
#dodge – 100% hp, lost all initiative – run.

hold BS to half and:
#hit – 30 to 40% hp left, half ini for other skills
#dodge – 100% hp, lost half initiative – do something.

spam BS and:
#hit 60-70% hp left, full ini …

it will be more about skill and good/bad choices… something like risk/reward

Vincent Von Demetri.1450:

I just wonder who thought that WvW players wanted “new abilities” to be able to “take less damage from guards”. Honestly, who was the one that developed that idea? Did they ever play WvW? I imagine it probably went a bit like this:

Yes, let’s add things the players really want… like a progression system that involves rankings that reflect nothing of actual skill, but entirely of time invested. It will make it easier for them to exploit already broken mechanics! Yes, that is a good idea.

I’m just surprised that this is there response to a very broken part of the game, where players have remained patient for months with promises of legitimate fixes. I would be ashamed to have claimed and hyped this up. I honestly couldn’t be more disappointed in the way the “Great WvW Update” is being handled. Literally the most hyped up piece of junk to date.

PvE or GTFO is basically what this patch means.

But don’t worry, one of the new content updates is heralds! Because those aren’t already in the game! facepalm

DRAMAAAAAA bring me popcorn plz!

Raege.1069:

Wait. You’re saying that it’s okay for people who only do Dungeons/Orr to have the cake and eat it too, but it’s no okay for WvW player to have that? Great logic there dude.

Their goal is make money … and they do it.
Your goal is kill other player/conquer keeps … and you do it.
Maybe you can’t do both.

Shifty.3412:

Daendur.2357:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Daendur.2357:

4 days before the patch is released any feedback is useless.
Btw, the fix to culling itself would be enough to make this the greatest WvW patch ever.

Probably since we haven’t really had any WvW updates before…
Seriously, fixing something that should have been fixed during the betas is nothing.
I’m so disapointed to this game.

As I said, wvw is a parte of the game and it’s considered pve … best way to earn money is doing pve

You kind of just contradicted yourself there.

Start porting from Orr to CoF and back again, and don’t do anything else. Let me know how much golds did you get then.

My point is you can’t focus on a single activity and claim it rewards you as the whole game would.
Maybe I should have written: “best way to earn money is doing some kind of pve”

I think you want to have your cake and eat it.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Daendur.2357:

4 days before the patch is released any feedback is useless.
Btw, the fix to culling itself would be enough to make this the greatest WvW patch ever.

Probably since we haven’t really had any WvW updates before…
Seriously, fixing something that should have been fixed during the betas is nothing.
I’m so disapointed to this game.

k tnx bye.

The game isn’t perfect, and WvW is a neglected part of it; however they are finally working on it, and you ppl are still complaining about thing they may or may not include in a fairly unknown patch.
As I said, wvw is a parte of the game and it’s considered pve … best way to earn money is doing pve, CoF takes about 10 minutes and gives you almost 1g.
You can invest 10 minutes of your time and then upgrade your tower.

Raap.9065:

Daendur.2357:

Raap.9065:

You make a profit in WvW because you don’t buy upgrades or siege equipement. You can not make a profit if you do, and even if you don’t, the level 20 blues you loot from underleveled enemies, and the level 80 grey items, really don’t do much more than cover your repair bill.

You can use badges of honor to buy rams, treb, catas etcetc … and for the repair cost: try to die less…

I rarely die, but I do deploy more siege and purchase more upgrades than PvE Farmer Bob over there.

Thanks for the attempt to insult my player skill however. Can’t win an argument? Resort to insults instead! Top quality posting.

Your attempt to derail my thread into a low quality flame contest ends here however.

Wait, you spoke about repair costs … if you don’t die you have no repair costs. Sieges can be bought via badges .. so you can sell all your loot and make money.

Raap.9065:

You make a profit in WvW because you don’t buy upgrades or siege equipement. You can not make a profit if you do, and even if you don’t, the level 20 blues you loot from underleveled enemies, and the level 80 grey items, really don’t do much more than cover your repair bill.

You can use badges of honor to buy rams, treb, catas etcetc … and for the repair cost: try to die less…

ok but you really don’t know if they’ll add ascended gear in wvw or not (nor anything else).
So this thread is about nothing… it isn’t about what you know, but about what you don’t know. There’s a difference, I think.

4 days before the patch is released any feedback is useless.
Btw, the fix to culling itself would be enough to make this the greatest WvW patch ever.

Is the PTR server online ? Man you’ve been so lucky to try this new patch before it goes live…

Raap.9065:

Still no Ascended gear from WvW, forcing WvW players to PvE?

Still no complete patch notes nor patch released.

Raap.9065:

Still no solution to the huge gold drain in WvW, forcing WvW players to PvE?

What do you mean ? I earn money in wvw

Raap.9065:

Still no additions to the content itself or even the re-addition of Orbs?

Orbs are wrong and hopefully won’t come back ever.

Raap.9065:

Oh, but we get a carrot on the stick leveling system for PvE players?

And this took them all this time, while hyping “the big WvW update”?

Deal breaker.

Why don’t you wait for the patch or at least patch notes before judge it ?

iBlasiannn.4279:

I swapped out my zerker jewels for cavalier’s today and tested them on pve monsters. The cavalier jewels gave me an extra 300 toughness, but I noticed that the damage was only reduced by 100 on the monsters. I don’t think it’s actually worth it. Any opinions, and has anyone tried running full pvt gear?

A full pvt set will take out too much damage I think.
As I said I made a mix and the result is:

Power: 2001
Precision: 1849
Toughness: 1496
Vitality: 1365
Critical Damage: 102%
Critical Chance: 65.44% (from behind/side) +12% (25 stacks) + 20% fury
Armor: 2560
Health: 15293

I think i’ll go for +damage to guards / – damage from guards and only after that i’ll take supply capacity …

Gytis.1637:

So you want to enhance a popular build to be more accessible ?
Now only skilled players can utilize it, by following your suggestion every starter could 1 hit kill a player if they get lucky and they understand that with this they have chances to kill even skilled players, but have no chances to kill someone using for example trap build.
Imo you should suggest to enhance “bad” skills / builds.

SilverWF.4789:

Where is -1 button ?

Now this is a good suggestion =)

Never said that you can 1shot ppl …
Now everyone can spec for high bs damage and more or less spam it. What i suggest is that if you spam it you’ll do less damage, if you charge it you can do big damage but you’ll pay initiative.
1 big shot not countered = target lose a lot of hp but thief spend initiative (less hs spam after)
1 big shot countered = thief spend initiative but target is still full.
and maybe SR (= a lot of stealth) + all ini BS = 1shot, why not ?

Matt Witter.6982:

1. Everyone that helped with the kill will get full credit for the kill.

And why not “appropriately splitted credit” ?

lol full credit is insane and terribly wrong.

Maybe they thikn GW2 will stand for like 50/60 years …

I think you’ll be a dead thief.
Few regeneration, few mobility, almost no condition remover.
when your roll for initiative is in CD you are done.
You can’t instagib 1v1 and you can’t resist 1vX …
Maybe i’m wrong but i don’t think it is a good build.

Kincaidia.3192:

A thief standing still for 3 seconds to stomp, invisible or not, is usually a dead thief. Hasted stomp is the real killer.

But you do bring up an interesting point – thieves have NO non-channeled ability stability. Daggerstorm, which you can’t do anything other than….. daggerstorm while it’s active. Only class that has that limitation.

So you can take your thief hate and cram it down your whinehole.

tbh you can daggerstorm, evade (interrupting DS) and do what you want with your stability buff… but it is a bit too much I think to use 1 elite + 1 dodge for 8s of stability

Kontrolle.3514:

Stealth stomp itself isnt OP.
Stealthstomp without any CD is.

Every other class has to sacrifice a stunbreaker, invul or stealth ability with a high CD.
Thiev can permastealthstomp so as i always said, CnD is the problem.

Do they stomp you multiple times ?
lol

Aervius.2016:

Why do people so vehemently resist this simple mantra?

Because everyone goes shatter….

Sunflowers.1729:

Daendur.2357:

To have a powerfull stealth you have to spend 30 trait points… it’s silly that a stupid block would break stealth. Regardless how short the stealth cooldown.

So you’re saying that to land backstab you need 30 points in Shadow Arts?

I think it’s silly that my 90 second cooldown virtue is negated by a thief being able to press #1 twice.

I’m not talking about backstab, i’m talking about stealth, since the whole thread is about break stealth on a stupid block or miss or evade …

Sunflowers.1729:

You can remove the passive aegis by shooting him once with a shortbow, then swapping weapons and doing the rest of the combo. Really difficult stuff right there. Besides, that’s 1 out of 8 possible classes.

Anyway, how does that combo even take 8 seconds?

0 seconds – Backstab
3 seconds – 1-auto-attack chain completed + CnD
3.5 seconds- Backstab

As I said – missing your attack shouldn’t take you out of stealth, but blocking should. Consider that backstab has a pretty short effective cooldown while most skills that give invulnerability or aegis have much, much longer ones.

To have a powerfull stealth you have to spend 30 trait points… it’s silly that a stupid block would break stealth. Regardless how short the stealth cooldown.

Kontrolle.3514:

Dont know how bad you are on your thief but this is the only class which causes trouble to me

So you are saying that you want to be a sort of unbeatable super hero and noone should trouble you ever…. you are saying you want to be OP.
If another profession troubles you, you go on it’s forum to complain.
Yeah, that looks fine … lol

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

Backstab uses initiative just like every other thief skill? As far as I know that’s not the case. Am I wrong?

Backstab is available only from stealth. How do you gain stealth ?

I see…so if CnD merely gave you access to BS without the stealth you’ll be completely ok with that?

Ahem..ahem.

With increased BS damage, to balance the lack of surpriseness, yes. Of course multiple times in a 3-4 secs window.

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

Backstab uses initiative just like every other thief skill? As far as I know that’s not the case. Am I wrong?

Backstab is available only from stealth. How do you gain stealth ?

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

bhagwad.4281:

A mesmer has a skill saying “block next attack” and lasts for two seconds. Now since stealth lasts for 4 secs, it takes anticipation and timing to use those two seconds at the correct moment. But there have been times when I use it, it works, and I still get hit immediately after that.

So I used skill, timing, I saved up my CD for a chance to use it…and what benefit do I get? Nothing.

When you read “Block” you know the thief is there and he backstabbed you.
You blocked his backstab, so you succesfully used a skill to counter another skill.
Now he is goin to backstab you again, so you have to use another skill to counter it, e.g. you can dodge.

You are suggesting to be able to counter multiple skills with 1 skill and that’s unreasonable because for that purpose there are skills like Shield Stance (and they have cooldowns)

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

if BS is a basic maneuver, why block it should be something requiring skill ?
You just have to press 1 button to block… Pressing 1 button is a basic maneuver

It is. But it doesn’t work obviously since BS can just be repeated.

And Shield Stance last 3seconds… also block can be repeated… so ?

I has a 30 second cooldown. I’m sorry I didn’t understand what you were trying to say…

That nothing requires skill … just press 1 button. it’s easy, a monkey can do that.
if you don’t consider positioning and timing I don’t consider cooldowns…

btw it has been stated that there are multiple options to avoid BS, not only a 30s cooldown skill.

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

if BS is a basic maneuver, why block it should be something requiring skill ?
You just have to press 1 button to block… Pressing 1 button is a basic maneuver

It is. But it doesn’t work obviously since BS can just be repeated.

And Shield Stance last 3seconds… also block can be repeated… so ?

if BS is a basic maneuver, why block it should be something requiring skill ?
You just have to press 1 button to block… Pressing 1 button is a basic maneuver

I was in WvW picking up flowers with my buddy Bob, we were both lvl 3 naked, and suddenly we were defeated by a thief. Thieves are OP I’ll leave this stupid game!
QQ

Dirty Dova.6490:

I have actually gotten good enough on my thief where i can cloak off of a just cloaked thief. You know he is going to come up behind you so turn and get ready to stealth. Or just when you expect a bs turn around and the damage is reduced a lot

in 1v1 … and in 10v10 ? you won’t even know he’s there…

DanH.5879:

but then, ppl will still complain about the insta-gib skill …

And we’ll reply “l2p”

Ruprect.7260:

Patch notes are always released after the patch goes live.

Not true.
Patch notes are ususally released more or less 1 hour before the patch … enough time to do market speculation.

I think it would be amazing to see BS as a charging skill … press 1… hold … hold … hold … fire! The more you hold it the more initiative you will use and the more damage you will deal.
You can chose to go for “the big shot” but if you are countered you’ll be without initiative. If you want to play less risky you’ll also do less damage.

I think it would be amazing to see BS as a charging skill … press 1… hold … hold … hold … fire! The more you hold it the more initiative you will use and the more damage you will deal.
If you want to go for “the big shot” and you are countered you’ll be without initiative….

bhagwad.4281:

No class has all of these things at the same time. And yes – if you save up one of these to prevent a BS, that’s presence of mind and skill. The thief was outplayed and shouldn’t be allowed to land it again.

Believe it or not, using one skill to counter another (like BS) is a valid form of play.

btw you are countering BS and indeed you prevent BS to damage you (1 2 3 times … as long as you counter it) it shouldn’t have nothing to do with stealth.
It would be like blocking a Fierce Blow and also put in cooldown Backbreaker. Nonsense

Ensign.2189:

I cannot think of a situation off the top of my head where I would prefer it over both Valkyrie and Knight’s. It’s not a particularly good set for the thief.

Playing with shout warriors for example. You have almost perma fury (so less need of knight’s precision) and a lot of healings (self and from group members) so high toughness is preferable to a large life pool (toughness > vitality).

I’m using a mix 4/6 armor valk, 2/6knight, 4/6 jewel zerk, 2/6cavalier
not bad.

Backstab should instantly kill everyone out of combat… I mean 100-0 hp 1 shot.

bhagwad.4281:

You can’t be serious right? I’ve seen a single BS in sPvP hit for 14k. If a backstab was evaded/blocked etc, it means the attack was countered. You shouldn’t get to do it again with no cost.

BS can hit even harder but it doesn’t. Are we considering real game or gimmicky builds created ad hoc ?

Sunflowers.1729:

if the enemy has blocked your backstab it’s obviously a form of counter-play.

and where do you put Aegis ?

bhagwad.4281:

I don’t understand. You’re saying it’s ok for a thief to spam BS from stealth even when the opponent has taken the trouble/lucked out to avoid it once? Given that landing a single backstab for huge damage can easily determine the outcome of a fight, is it fair that a thief gets multiple chances to land it with no penalty?

Far from making it a “stupid skill”, it will promote skilled gameplay and weed out those thieves who don’t take the trouble to ensure that it lands by forcing the opponent to blow their CDs first. As it stands right now, spamming BS takes no skill and has no cost.

The damage is not so high to justify what you are asking.
A single backstab can’t determine the outcome of a fight, unless you are fighting upleveled undergeared characters.
Triple BS damage and your request will make sense.

bhagwad.4281:

Grimwolf.7163:

And then Backstab becomes the single worst ability in the entire game. Yay for balance, right?

Why worst ability? Huge damage comes with the opportunity cost of getting unstealthed. Surely you’re not suggesting there should be no opportunity cost whatsoever?

This change will promote skilled play instead of button spamming don’t you think?

BS already requires stealth and positionig to be effective, add the chance to be unstealthed on miss/block and it will become a stupid skill.
It will be ok if they double our auto attack dmg … so we won’t need BS anymore (as it will be useless)

bhagwad.4281:

Oldgrimm.8521:

maybe we can discuss this further when stealth changes is in full application,

regardless, we cant apply stealth either when you dodge block and evade

I’m talking about coming out of stealth not going into it…

with a 3 seconds stealth mechanic, it will be stupid to come out of stealth on a block/miss.

When you stealth, you have to hit quickly and a lot of times you don’t have the time to go in a proper melee range so you hit 1 a couple of time, running towards your opponent.

It will be too easy to counter stealth.

Shemsu.8721:

100% wrong. The D/P “Perma” stealth build is not affected by this change since they never have to leave stealth. Only the patient CnD using thieves are hit by this

tbh every x/D will be hit … from the most culling abuser CnD waiter to the most aggressive thief that uses CnD to stealth stomp, and restealth to another target doing 1v2+

I think we’ll see a lot of 0 0 30 20 20 condi thieves since you have more mobility that cna help cover those 3 seconds.