Guild Wars 2

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Fay, Ross, et al are correct: I don’t run DD because it loses me fights.
This is a condi build, not a power build, so I don’t have Vampirism for that extra synergy. Helseth and supcutie both are running power, aren’t they?

Meanwhile, DD also has a history of causing me to be revealed at awkward moments, handicapping me undesirably, given how reliant I am on stealth.

For the chrono variant, as we discussed in the other thread, the relatively lower uptime on my stealth makes Desperate Decoy more of a bargain, and less of a liability (getting interrupted during a stomp is still no fun, obviously).

My final decision doesn’t come down to theory, however, it comes down to practice: I’ve found that I do worse with DD than without. If there’s a skill gap preventing me from using it correctly, so be it: I’ll get around to it after I’ve dealt with my other, more pressing, skill weaknesses.

I appreciate your admittance it could be a skill gap, rather than resorting to Ross’ claim of incompetence on those who do.

Nickthemoonwolf.1485:

Aomine.5012:

If Ventari, a single aspect of Revenant (which can play 5 roles,), outheal Druid, then Druid serve no purpose to exist.

Why don’t you bring up Glint giving all kind of party-wide boons with strong active effect? It’s part of your class too.

No one wants Ventari to be better than druid, just want it to be VIABLE at all. As it stands you’re crippling yourself and the group by using it.
Does glint/ventari offer boons? yeah sure but not at the same time as heals! 500-600 ticking regen is nice, real nice, but means little when you really cant make use of it at the same time as main healing.

The entire reason that ventari was kept under the bar was because it was supposed to be more drawn out sustained healing, but as it currently is, druid is able to maintain its burst healing over a sustained period. That completely overshadows ventari’s capabilities.

You shouldent be looking at it as “oh you want this single legend to be as good as an entire elite” because what you REALLY should take out of this is “I want my support focused build to be as viable as that elite, which is also running a support build” Legend shmegend, this is about slotting yourself into a specific build and role.

But this is wrong.

Warning all numbers were rounded after calculating to the nearest hundred.

Ventari heals 2000ish per second and can sustain it indefinitely. It can burst to 3000ish per second.

Druid can burst to 4,500 per second for only 3 second every 8 seconds. But then can only sustain 1000 per second while it waits on cds and both of these are only in avatar form.

Over 8.5 seconds a ventari had healed between 17,000 and 25,500 health.

A Druid would heal 20,700 health over 8.5 seconds with 15,700 of it coming in the first 3.5 second.

For burst damage Druid is the superior healer, for sustained damage Ventari is the superior healer.

You would never use a Druid to provide healing for a rammer under arrow cart fire because the form heal peaks after 3.5 seconds and they have no means of applying perma protection to rammers.

frifox.5283:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

With 3 clones out that would grant 8 seconds of distortion >.<

Awesome!

But, but spvp. T.T I don’t want to give them a decap simply by distorting with one illusion out.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

adelaide.6213:

Fay.2357:

WvW roaming: Split. Why? Because this is the one aspect of the game that base Mesmer is actually good at.

It’s not that Chronomancer is overwhelmingly better than base Mesmer, it’s that base Mesmer just sucks.

Could you link or detail a build that would not be arguably improved by swapping out a trait line with Chrono?

I personally would always use chrono just because of the QoL movespeed while roaming.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhQQNArfWlsnhK0YnbwRNwtGLvGkZHG+IKnQvjGaAyZTA-TFyCABAcIAU4JFs3+DIfCFNIYp87S1f0TfxYKBDAgAMzysMnZ6W36W3G6QH6QH6QbmzcmzcmzsQALWDA-w

Again you forget you to use desperate decoy >.<
This time its because you must remember neither phantasm you have is multi hit, so making them crit is not a necessity.
The synergy between DD and PU is not to be missed.

In fact that synergy is so good it has become meta in pvp. As DD + PU + Runes of The Vampirism means every minute any BS +HS from a thief will make you stealth and invuln.

I can’t speak for alpha, but I personally avoid taking desperate decoy no matter what. I want direct control over my stealth/interruptions. I’ve been killed more than once by an ill-times desperate decoy proc.

Agreed.

Anyone suggesting it as meta, or running it as such has poor judgement and should be dismissed.

Edit:.. with love.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/ATTN-Completely-Broken-Chrono-Build/first#post5562474
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8encfC1qhlpB2fCEgilTjiMAWggqMDauwp+Zz2tF-TZBGABeXGAgLAQaHEgDeCA2s/AA

Speak on what you know, not what you assume. Else you dismiss supcutie, and also helseth for their poor judgement. I won’t speak on their decisions to run the trait, but I know my opinion that if you are a competent player in pvp the proccing of the trait will be less of an issue than the almost unavoidable instant deaths you can encounter.

Helseth, in his usual Helseth manner, kittened and moaned about DD because of it’s inherent flaws. This is what I know.

I also know that there is at least one other viable trait choice in that line with no downsides, so it’s not as though DD is an “only option” sort of option.

So ahh, there’s two things that I know.

Oh, and competent players can avoid death without DD. So yeah.

Yet both run the trait and supcutie and helseth have proven themselves more than competent players. And no, there are some deaths that only DD plus vampirism will prevent. The downside to running phantasmal fury is you lose out on a defensive trait. People already run marauders and have good fury access, there is absolutely no reason to run a trait just so iZerker will have a 90% crit rate and not a 70% one.

Agroman.7190:

I wouldn’t necessarily put “primal” on a level with “less intelligent”. Perhaps “less civilized”, yes, but that isn’t the point.
Berserkers (by which I explicitly only mean the Warrior specialization) for example also rely on primal anger to gain power, but that doesn’t necessarily make them less intelligent than other fighters.
The mind of an Elder Dragon is so large and so heavily focussed on destroying/assimilating/devouring/etc that I can’t really see them wasting any thoughts about the subtleties that concern human beings, which are very much what a mesmer has to deal with in order to manipulate their enemies. I believe with all that missing, it shouldn’t have been such a big deal for Anise and Jennah to merely “touch” the mind of Kralkatorrik, who had just awakened and was pretty much on rampage. Perhaps an Elder Dragon’s mind is even so large that they don’t even notice something as small as a human mind. Manipulating anything within and even staying connected with it after Kralky has noticed what’s going on is a different story.

Edit: The question raised by the idea that mesmers perhaps banned those spells out of fear is – why now, if it was deemed acceptable during GW1?

I don’t think mesmers banned those spells. What happened was hexes became represented either by conditions or by the phantasm/clones. Skills like backfire they tried to put on the torch but it was not possible. So gw2 mesmer should be combined with gw1 when you assume mesmer ability.

What the mesmer collective did was make certain skills only known to probably the human nobility. Spells that not only would cause fear but would also unbalance the power of a monarchy that had a monopoly on mind controlling political rivals.

From gw1 we know that shouts do not belong to the four schools of magic.

From both games we can determine that shouts take two forms: those that induce an effect in an enemy and/or ally, and those that are used to cast tangible magics.

Rangers, warriors, and paragons take the first form, and in general guardians, elementalists, and necromancers take the second.

But how do first form perform their shouts since they had no school of of magic in common? And why were they irresistible in gw1? They could be countered but not removed.

It’s made even more apparent with the paragon class which also had chants that stuck with the ally.

I am reminded of dune and the voice and I was wondering if anyone had any explanation for how this control works.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

adelaide.6213:

Fay.2357:

WvW roaming: Split. Why? Because this is the one aspect of the game that base Mesmer is actually good at.

It’s not that Chronomancer is overwhelmingly better than base Mesmer, it’s that base Mesmer just sucks.

Could you link or detail a build that would not be arguably improved by swapping out a trait line with Chrono?

I personally would always use chrono just because of the QoL movespeed while roaming.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhQQNArfWlsnhK0YnbwRNwtGLvGkZHG+IKnQvjGaAyZTA-TFyCABAcIAU4JFs3+DIfCFNIYp87S1f0TfxYKBDAgAMzysMnZ6W36W3G6QH6QH6QbmzcmzcmzsQALWDA-w

Again you forget you to use desperate decoy >.<
This time its because you must remember neither phantasm you have is multi hit, so making them crit is not a necessity.
The synergy between DD and PU is not to be missed.

In fact that synergy is so good it has become meta in pvp. As DD + PU + Runes of The Vampirism means every minute any BS +HS from a thief will make you stealth and invuln.

I can’t speak for alpha, but I personally avoid taking desperate decoy no matter what. I want direct control over my stealth/interruptions. I’ve been killed more than once by an ill-times desperate decoy proc.

Agreed.

Anyone suggesting it as meta, or running it as such has poor judgement and should be dismissed.

Edit:.. with love.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/ATTN-Completely-Broken-Chrono-Build/first#post5562474
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8encfC1qhlpB2fCEgilTjiMAWggqMDauwp+Zz2tF-TZBGABeXGAgLAQaHEgDeCA2s/AA

Speak on what you know, not what you assume. Else you dismiss supcutie, and also helseth for their poor judgement. I won’t speak on their decisions to run the trait, but I know my opinion that if you are a competent player in pvp the proccing of the trait will be less of an issue than the almost unavoidable instant deaths you can encounter.

Fay.2357:

The main issue with the full boon share build is…why?

Permanent resistance…why? Between Mesmer and ele, you’ve got more condition removal than is ever needed in PvE just in normal builds (alacrity Mesmer and dps staff ele). Sure resistance can be handy, but it’s hardly important.

Permanent fury/might/swiftness can be obtained by an afk revenant or a slightly less than afk ele. They’re nice, but other classes can share it effortlessly without impacting their standard builds.

Regen is handy, but a ton of classes have access to it in one form or another; Mesmer is hardly needed for that.

Protection sharing is nice, but rarely do you need permanent protection. For temporary protection you can use a guardian shout, or herald can hit their elite facet for protection as long as is necessary.

Vigor sharing is fairly handy too, but many classes already have access to vigor in some form. Vigor also has far less of an effect than it used to, and so is less essential.

So basically we’re left with sorta vigor and sorta prot being the reasons to run full boon share. That’s not exactly a really compelling set of reasons. It might be nice to carry noobs with, but noob carrying is arguably better done with the alacrity build anyway. It’s cool…but ultimately not super necessary.

Please remember that the context of this is wvw.

So one would be contemplating the ability to speed up siege weapons with alacrity or the ability for the zerg to use foods that are not lemongrass poultry. In wvw the sharing is caring serves as a filler role for inadequate group compositions, for instance if a group is not receiving enough swiftness or stability. The inadequate part is usually lack of guardians, but can stem from just the general squishiness of the casters. The role is similar to herald on revenant, the difference being that the herald requires constant melee contact with allies, the chronosharer is boon storm bursts that last long.

Embolism.8106:

Desperate Decoy can interrupt anything from res/stomp attempts to Mantra channelling. It’s terrible.

You should be aware of the threshold and the last time it procced. It has always been used to prevent instant deaths. The caveat to your interrupted stomp/res/mantra is that otherwise you would probably be dead. Its a pvp thing. I don’t know what mode you are referring to.

Silverkey.2078:

Dondagora.9645:

I feel like Mistrust should get 4 stacks, though. It’s a GM, shouldn’t it be defining our build?

My main problem with mistrust: you interrupt a foe, he gets confusion… but it does not proc because he is dazed.

I really wish mistrust would be: “reduce duration of daze to 0.25s. Dazed enemies are blinded (maybe also weakened). Inflict 4 (for example) stacks confusion to interrupted enemies.”
The perfect example of high risk high reward + you don’t prevent confusion to proc.

Mistrust is balanced around you aoe dazing 5 targets and subsequently aoe applying 10 stack of confusion.

I thought a similar thing about mistrust.

I propose changing the name to : Dazed and Confused (since gw loves popular culture references ) Its new effect: The duration of your dazes is reduced by 100%. When you would apply daze, apply 1 stack of confusion instead.

This would solve many problems. First it would allow you to control the amount of daze you output by using traits like confounding suggestions or the rune of the mesmer. Using either of those two method would insure you did at least 1/4 second daze, even if someone is using signet of humility because the game rounds up control duration. Second it would give condi mesmer more options.

Mantra of distraction becomes another cry of frustration. So does diversion.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

adelaide.6213:

Fay.2357:

WvW roaming: Split. Why? Because this is the one aspect of the game that base Mesmer is actually good at.

It’s not that Chronomancer is overwhelmingly better than base Mesmer, it’s that base Mesmer just sucks.

Could you link or detail a build that would not be arguably improved by swapping out a trait line with Chrono?

I personally would always use chrono just because of the QoL movespeed while roaming.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhQQNArfWlsnhK0YnbwRNwtGLvGkZHG+IKnQvjGaAyZTA-TFyCABAcIAU4JFs3+DIfCFNIYp87S1f0TfxYKBDAgAMzysMnZ6W36W3G6QH6QH6QbmzcmzcmzsQALWDA-w

Again you forget you to use desperate decoy >.<
This time its because you must remember neither phantasm you have is multi hit, so making them crit is not a necessity.
The synergy between DD and PU is not to be missed.

In fact that synergy is so good it has become meta in pvp. As DD + PU + Runes of The Vampirism means every minute any BS +HS from a thief will make you stealth and invuln.

MailMail.6534:

Daniel Handler.4816:

As I wrote above. A veil bot has more build diversity as only one utility slot and perhaps one trait line is required.

Pro-Tip: take out one of your wells in this aforementioned alacrity bot build for Veil. You still have 3+ Wells to use. By trait line, I assume you mean Chaos for PU’s Veil buff. It’s hardly worth using whatsoever, because Veil/Mass Invis will always suck as support until they start balancing Decoy/Prestige separately. If you mean Inspiration for the superspeed on glamour, this also is negligible.

I’m no WvWer by any stretch of the word, but I totally think you can be a Veil-bot AND an Alacrity bot. And furthermore, as pyro mentioned, the use of Alacrity takes into account an entire role and build. Using the word “bot” as a derogatory term takes away this huge buff to Mesmers in both WvW and potentially some aspects of PvE…

From what I saw of pyros build, the build cannot be changed without comprising alacrity generation. So you would have veil bots and alacrity bots.

The difference ultimately being that mesmers are prized for a singular rotation they can accomplish while the veil bots were prized for single skill. Veil bots were then maximized to focus on interruption and ganking to enhance their other aspects, things became more skill focused in combat at least, and some build diversity was allowed.

The singular rotation that gives max alacrity will be the only thing prized now. Not the wells that serve no function in wvw beyond giving alacrity.

Perhaps, PERHAPS, commanders will ask chronomancers to chain tides of time to create several waves. But we are not revenants so I don’t like being forced into a role where my 6-10 skills have been decided for me.

tobascodagama.2961:

As much as we’d all like proper boonshare to be a thing, the boons we can actually generate and share to a meaningful degree are Might (via BD), Quickness (ToT + Time Warp), and of course Alacrity. We can generate a lot of Protection, but the only ways we have to share it are SoI and II, each on a 24/30s cooldown.

This is wrong. If you are doing proper boon share you should have at least 50% boon duration or more. Something revenants can give people who don’t want to use doubloons and gear.

Protection:
Chaotic dampening has a 7.5 second duration on protection if you have at least 50%. From that any sw/sw +st mesmer can get 29.5 seconds every 27 seconds minimum. Not including the protection received from being hit while under chaos armor.

Sharing that once means allies who stick by you have perma. Sharing it twice means they have 1 minute of protection.

Regeneration:
As far as I have seen boons stack LIFO. As a result bountiful disillusionment is quite powerful. Adding in metaphysical rejuvenation and II means that if we stick to that 50% boon share we produce quite a bit of regeneration.

Simply f4 after a large blow your allies get 15 seconds of regen. You have 30 seconds at this point. Boonshare it once, then again. They now have 1 minute 30 and you have a kitten load of short duration regen from your phants to keep those big stacks on. Eventually this process repeats to the point that you and/or they have reached the 3 minute duration cap on regeneration.

Vigor:
Depending on build you can easily give perma vigor as a combination of critical infusion and BD.

Swiftness: easily achieve perma as the signet, chaos storm, and chaos armor all give sufficient sources.

Retaliation:
chaos storm gives large amounts, you can apply light aura to yourself, and in wvw you get substantial amounts when guards hit you.

Fury: perma with any dueling version of boon share.

aegis: if need be use chaos storm, hard to keep this boon perma

stability: bd says hello. not exactly perma but no one starves for it either. mantra of concentration says hello

resistance: see my post above

Now with chrono the mesmer boonstorm can apply every boon in the game for at least 10 seconds

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Embolism.8106:

Daniel Handler.4816:

You can give perma resistance.

….?

Bountiful Disillusionment + CS = Resistance
Temporal Enchanter + Glamour = Resistance

I assume that’s what he means, but then you’d have to take more glamours than just Time Warp, and I don’t see how you can get permanent resistance out of it even so (3s on CS cd, 5s on CS cd, shared makes 16s, if you have another glamour, that’s another 3s here and there…I just don’t see it).

before you attempt this make sure you have the traits bountiful disillusionment and temporal enchanter, as well as improved alacrity.

Then these are the steps

1. One hundred percent boon share (so keep your boons up for chaotic persistence )
2. Continuum split and aoe give 10 seconds of resistance.
3. Shift 2 glamour, that is 22 seconds of resistance aoe
4. Shift a signet of inspiration, allies now has 42 seconds.
5. shift back
6. use another signet of inspiration. Allies now has 64ish seconds, 9 stacks of the boon.
7. 30 ish seconds later use one glamour in range of said allies
8. use signet of inspiration to add 6 to the 6 they just got to make 12.
9. repeat steps 7-8 again 2 more times.
10. continiuum split is off cooldown repeat steps 1-9

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Dastion.3106:

Even then there is potential for non-Alacrity builds. A Chronomancer with Illusionary Inspiration, Mimic, Signet of Inspiration, Well of Action, and Time Warp can share out some serious quickness (and other boons) with a Herald buddy in his party.

While cool, alacrity builds can already hit 100% quickness share with a little tweaking.
Between Tides of Time, Well of Action, Time Warp, CS, Herald buff, and Boon food, you should be able to easily hit 100% quickness in a party without Mimic, II or SoI. In fact, I calculated that an alacrity/quickness support should be able to share 100% quickness on an entire raid, with some careful investment and timing.

That said, I think that just leaves more room for other support. When I first suggested boonshare for the support chrono’s secondary focus, Pyro shot me down, but it’s been suggested again since. I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to go Well of Eternity, Signet of Inspiration, Well of Action, Well of Recall, with a Chaos/Inspiration/Chrono, Inspiration/Illusions/Chrono, or Chaos/Illusions/Chrono build for full boonshare.

Chaos, inspiration, chrono,
You can give perma resistance. Perma protection. As well as every other boon in the game in some degree of perma or not.

This is the build I want to run. Its also the only thing I think that can give alacrity some level of competition.

But the game isnt designed that way. Damage is king.

It’s difficult to see the use in game for a skill that can sustain a player in lava. Perhaps wvw when under siege fire.

Zenith.7301:

Exciton.8942:

As supcutie said, all the elite specialization has been pushed towards a pretty strong level.
Go watch phantaram play his revenant. He did 1million damage in a game. The old meta PU mesmer normally only do 25-30k damage per game. And the immortal dd ele also only do like 30k direct damage + 20k condie damage before nerf.

Revenant does around 8-12k unrelenting assaults on a single target at low to moderate might stack levels, which luckily the revenant can stack fairly easily.

Their autoattack is the strongest sword autoattack in the game, easily doing 40% more DPS than the mesmer autoattack, and the revenant autoattack also stacks 8-12 vulnerability by itself whereas the mesmer autoattack caps around 4-5 and with sword clones bumps up to 8-9 (sword clones will rarely be up so this is an unrealistic scenario).

Then we get to Shiro’s Impossible Odds, which allows them easy 4-5 seconds of swiftness every legend switch to Shiro on top of its super speed.

Mesmer is all burst, terrible sustained damage. Nerfing alacrity will completely negate what little help we got in the sustained damage department, but of course PvP has a history of keeping this class inferior in PvE.

Unrelenting Assault not only does over double the damage of blurred frenzy, it also teleports you to the target, evades for longer time, and grants you 7 stacks of might.

This game has no semblance of DPS balance across classes because it’s balanced around bursting 20k max health pools unlike in PvE where mobs have millions of HP.

Some corrections are needed.

First of all Shiro does give swiftness at all. I think you mean quickness.

Second of all you can dodge half of impossible or all of UA depending on if they use quickness.

Third the implicit flaw to UA is that you need your target alone. So summoning Illusions makes you take even less damage.

Any thoughts?
/15 char

MailMail.6534:

Daniel Handler.4816:

We exchange one tyrant for another.

I don’t get the complaint or point of this thread. We now have two options: Veil Bots or Alcarity bots. Actually, you can do both at the same time.

This is called build diversity. No problem here from my POV. Please correct me if I’m wrong though.

As I wrote above. A veil bot has more build diversity as only one utility slot and perhaps one trait line is required.

An alacrity bot has one effective build atm. But again I’m probably not use to the expectations of such specialization. Probably I was an elementalist I would be used to running one build and one build only I’m wvw.

There is a possibility the sentence means that you used magic before you just weren’t channeling the planet itself.

It also could mean that the ranger just borrowed his magic before and didn’t channel up till now.

@plagiarised
I think the issue people find is that if you channel the forces of tyria itself you should have a power increase in the areas that are tyrias dominion. So the tidal skills and the plant skills are fine. The problem is that tyria hypothetically has no control over the stars, so you wouldn’t gain star abilities by channeling the planets spirit.

What seems to fit the text is that channeling tyria gives a power boost. As a result the druid might become more connected to aspects of nature it had previously been distant from. And what we know from rangers is that the closer the connection to an animal/plant/spirit the stronger the rangers abilities.

The reason its still a mess is because you would think any of the forces they mention would appear earlier in the story.

The back is suppose to be a condi pet but it’s auto doesn’t bleed. Not only that it is given less innate condi damage than the scale. As a result the condi output on scale is far higher especially when traited. This is unfortunate.

Whew found a couple

Ancestral grace will not add force when healing a person at full health.
Ancestral wisp will.
Life siphon give force.
Life siphon give force at full heath
You cannot blast fields generated by the dinosaurs with the trait clarion bond.

Um op here. This wasn’t in reference to raids at all. This was in reference to wvw. You wouldn’t use a veilbot in pve or raids. There is usually a degree of choice in wvw builds. But Pyros build is currently the max version of alacrity. And that is what the team wanted. The difference being that with the veilbots we had more control over the rest of our build.

Disregard this. Change is good.

Malkavian.4516:

It actually is a fresh take on the druid. Most druids in any RPG even in MMOs would associate Druids as either the kind that would transform into animals, or manipulate trees and whatnot to defeat their foes. And channeling nature energy from the heavens themselves is a nice touch.

Its fun to play make no mistake. Aspects of it are just confusing.

It doesn’t help that the way they write things is weird.

“As a longtime ally of nature, the ranger can now channel the strength of Tyria itself after tapping into the primal forces of the Maguuma jungle.”

What am I suppose to take from reading this in the reveal. That strength of tyria is celestial? Or that druid wasn’t using magic before.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Agroman.7190:

Honestly, I find the mind bending thing more unlikely than time warping. It’s never really stated that mesmers can get directly into people’s head. But, any way you put it, the spell is ridiculously powerful.

“Getting into people’s head” is exactly what the majority of the GW1 mesmer plethora of skills are about.

Mesmers, in general, can do two things: First, they can manipulate reality via ether. Second, they can directly alter people’s minds.

When the mesmer was released, there was an argument not unlike the current druid one where someone argued mesmers in GW2 weren’t true mesmers because they’re manipulating reality and that’s not what mesmers in GW1 did. While mostly true (there was some manipulation of reality in GW1), a dev came in to state that mesmers were always capable of doing both (of course, despite this the person continued arguing his point…).

It was also said in an interview with Angel that mesmers don’t like it being known that they can manipulate an individual’s perception of reality (“get directly into their mind”) to avoid fear propagating about the mesmer. Given GW1, either this is a recent thing thus explaining the overall movement towards reality manipulation over mind manipulation, or yet another thing Angel got wrong in interviews.

In the reveal Robert mentions difficulty finding time magic that will work with lore.

Is there anything in chrono that reminds you of gw1?

tobascodagama.2961:

At least we aren’t damage bots or heal bots.

I feel for the rangers. A heal bot or a utility bot is not fun, for me at least. We are going to be so important in wvw if the dont fix alacrity on siege. And as much as love pyros build I don’t want to play it.

We exchange one tyrant for another.

settlers max daze max bleed

keep them dazed immobilized and bleed. tada

There are a lot of dazes and immobilizes and in combination with ancient seeds I found a lot of daze + immob you can do. Especially because currently if ancient seed proc on five at the same time it will be an aoe entangle.

Primal echos + sigil of geomancy. Whenever you swap to staff and they don’t have stability you aoe entangle foes around you and they get an addition 3 stacks of bleed.

Lunar impact + natural convergence. Aoe entangle into aoe entangle. 6 second daze 8 second immob

glyph of equality + glyph of alignment. Another aoe entangle.

Tried out a variance of this build and it works wonderfully.

Ehecatl.9172:

Daniel Handler.4816:

@ehecatl. They said to tread lightly. He wasn’t constantly telling you kill things. A singular case vs constant mimicing or causing death.

Except that was still one of two times we saw the druids do any sort of magic. That’s 50% of what we know about their rituals. They sometimes require sacrifice.

There is no difference between doing this and summoning a storm, but that’s often considered a natural part of druidism in the lore of most settings. The formation of a black hole is nothing but a storm on a larger scale, and harnessing that dark, destructive power is completely in line with the Tyrian druid’s view of good and evil.

True. But storms grow and dissipate in cycles. Nothing is lost. The concept of a black hole is that it cannot be undone. And that for the most part that which passes into it is lost forever.

The skull of a centaur will decompose.

But I think we do need more information. When we speak to the druids of Maguuma we should restart this discussion. Because right we just don’t know and are relying on gut feelings on how these creatures would lend their namesake.

I’ll stop contradicting myself then.

Question. What do you think berserker stance is?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Berserker_Stance
Thats how they would set themselves on fire and take no damage.

“Berserkers are warriors that have tapped into a primal bloodlust to unleash their rage in the form of powerful new burst skills.”

The devs themselves said that rage skills were acts of strength.

“The berserker’s utility skills are a new type of skill known as rage skills. This skill type is similar to the warrior’s physical skill type in that they involve feats of strength but have the added bonus of granting bonus adrenaline when used.”

The skill that shoots fire balls is called a primal burst.
If rage itself becomes an energy source is it magic?

This is what seems to be their lore explanation for Druid
“As a longtime ally of nature, the ranger can now channel the strength of Tyria itself after tapping into the primal forces of the Maguuma jungle.”
The implication was that they could not channel before.

The wording says ranger weapon. It doesn’t seem to work with staff. Is the staff a druid weapon?

@castle

I wasn’t referring to the paragon. I was comparing the “magic” of symbiotic bond that you mentioned to that of protect me. Both of which could simply be referring to the ranger or the pet physically protecting the other.

Rituals don’t have to be magic because praying to the gods is not described as magic in all occurrences.

If you don’t want to use the names. Use the fact that tremor the mace skill says you hit the earth and generate shockwaves. The act of lighting yourself on fire and not taking damage is not surprising given the berserker stance means that you don’t receive conditions while in that stance.

@agro read the paragraph above

@ehecatl. They said to tread lightly. He wasn’t constantly telling you kill things. A singular case vs constant mimicing or causing death.

@amra the implication seems to be that a druid/ranger can do anything as there is a spirit for every type of occurrence in magic. And the ritualist were able to gain access to multiple schools through channeling magic.

Using this skill will give you 80% astral force. Is this intended? You seem to get the 2.5%*10 for you and your pet. It acts a heal when none of the other heals act as heals unless they actually heal you.

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

@Daniel : Schools of magic are not a thing anymore, it’s been officialized as a false belief by Angel McCoy I believe.

That is an oversimplification.

Schools of magic no longer exist. However each profession still uses the basics of their skills and twists them slightly. This is why we have solo professions.

It was also explained that while blended magic does exist it is rare, especially because people seem to be operating at the phd level in magic. So anything that the guardian performs is a result of what preservation magic when blended with paragon arts can obtain. The power sources should be the same.

First, you’re mixing game mechanics with actual Lore. It’s totally possible for people in Tyria to have multiple professions, but, as a dev said, it would be impractical as it would reduce yojr efficiency in your main profession.
Second, the one and only magic that was officially categorized in a school of magic was Elementalism in Destruction. Anything elsenis pure speculation.

Your entire statement serves to contradict absolute nothing that I wrote. Because you seem to be talking about a point I never made in the text.

By only saying the schools no longer exist you deny the reality that all guardian magic except for a little should be a mix of paragon and preservation magic.

Therefore it should be mentioned that although the schools no longer limit guardians, they still act within their previous bounds. As the level of blended magic that exists is quite low. Currently the devs have only mentioned the new healing skills as a sign of blended magic. A person with two professions did not use blended magic. Blending magic was magic of two properties . Like the illusion of a fireball that was actually on fire.

Ehecatl.9172:

“Darkness and light, good and evil…all are a part of nature. There is no regrowth without death…without decay. Such is the lesson that I can teach you, stripling.”

Quote from a druid in GW1.

They viewed death, decay, and evil as all facets of nature. Using their magic to mimic the death of a star is well in line with their belief structure that destruction is a necessary part of life.

It really does feel like you’re just fishing for reasons that the new elite spec breaks lore.

Edit: Actually I just remembered what quest that NPC was from. He asks you to go out and bring him the heart of a centaur warlord and bring it back so he can use divination for you. Pretty dark.

Ultimate cop out. If something is part of nature that does not mean a druid will actively engage in it. Fire is part of nature, you use no fire in this spec. All the fields except for ethereal are arguably part of nature. From your quote the druid could be using necromancy because it is part of nature.

And the druids were not all about destruction. As they said

“Tread lightly. The damage you do today compounds with time.”

castlemanic.3198:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I am going to stop you right there if you think this discussion is going to continuing being on whether the ranger uses magic at all. It is about whether rituals were magic.

You’re saying that it’s entirely impossible that rituals can be magic? For what reason? If you acknowledge that the ranger DOES use magic, how is it a stretch to believe that rituals are magical?

Daniel Handler.4816:

A spear of lightning is no more magical than a flame arrow. For as you know in gw2 we have air and fire sigils. Is there a holy sigil? This is an example of assuming too much.

I’m pretty sure that it’s most definitely magical, but your opinion is your own.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Your claiming the magical foundations behind beastmastery does not exactly lend to a case where every other slightly magical thing must be magic. It just causes more irritation because they don’t explain what ranger magic is. Some magic does not mean all magic.

let me quote you again.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Your claiming the magical foundations behind beastmastery does not exactly lend to a case where every other slightly magical thing must be magic.

Slightly magical is still MAGIC.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Is nature magic emphatic connections to animal and spirits?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empathic_Bond they are so strange in gw2 the way they discuss the “magic” that rangers perform, versus the other classes. For instance this skill seems magical but it is placed in wilderness survival, not in nature magic.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Survival

we have clear examples in this specific category of skills of both magic and non-magic skills. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightning_Reflexes vs https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharpening_Stone for example. lightning reflexes isn’t categorised as nature magic but it most definitely is magic, in fact all survival skills are enhanced by https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wilderness_Knowledge which falls under wilderness survival.

to extrapolate from that, wilderness survival means using whatever means necessary to survive in the wild, and in a world full of magic, there’s an extra and very powerful tool at rangers disposal: magic.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Here is another “bond” skill.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Angelic_Bond This skill had the attribute leadership.
Are they implying that paragon and ranger magic is the same? Is this related to shouting? There are all these bond skills that seem to be related but should be separate in lore.

You’re contradicting yourself

I will not accept names of skills as the game can be translated. Therefore one must look at them one by one.

Daniel Handler.4816:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empathic_BondI am quite annoyed that berserker’s are summoning. However their ability to perform this action is an extension of their rage. And it feeds into a mechanic they have alway used. Adrenaline. So nothing is made more unusual. The only irritating skill is the one that says summon.

Actually each of those skills creates some sort of either molten or earthen activity. one of the other skills actually uses the word “earthen” in the skills description and that’s NOT the one that has the word ‘summon’ in it.

three more for you from the berserker:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flames_of_War “Cleanse conditions and become a mobile fire field that burns nearby foes. When the field expires, it explodes, damaging foes and burning them again.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Blaze “When you use a rage skill, set nearby foes on fire.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/King_of_Fires “Increase the duration of burning you apply. Critical hits against burning foes spread the burning to nearby foes.”

again, the berserker is CLEARLY using magic. animations, skill names and skill descriptions all line up with the berserker using magic.

Warriors never used magic and now berserkers do, so why are you not claiming that warriors break lore worse than druids?

I don’t jump out of my seat when I see the word earth. After all
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthshaker
Again the only surprising one is the one that say summon.

I don’t say rituals are magic because there is nothing that says they have to be. No indication has been given the that the ranger is the caster. All that has been implied is that he is calling forth another supernatural entity to do it for him.

Your right I shouldn’t compare any of the bond skills to each other so lets take them as they are.

A magical redirecting of damage called forth by a shout that can have no non magical equivalence.
Because shouts that deal with damage movement must be magical.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me!%22

I need to find the line where they mentioned that berserkers also did untapped human potential.

edit:
“The torch is the berserker’s weapon of choice, and it embodies the powerful flames of war. While the guardian uses magical flames for protection and purging, berserkers use the torch as a reckless weapon of destruction, slamming it into the ground and even lighting themselves ablaze to become mobile fire fields.”

“The berserker’s utility skills are a new type of skill known as rage skills. This skill type is similar to the warrior’s physical skill type in that they involve feats of strength but have the added bonus of granting bonus adrenaline when used.”

“Berserkers are warriors that have tapped into a primal bloodlust to unleash their rage in the form of powerful new burst skills.”

forum bug
/15 char

apharma.3741:

Knighthonor.4061:

Can’t believe what I am reading from you people. Dpsing with Shiro and Demon with cleric gear is ok now….?

Smh

Last I checked damage is calculated off weapon damage, skill coefficients and offensive stats like power, precision, ferocity and condition damage where applicable. When you swap legend you are not suddenly going to lose out on damage unless utilising a specific utility to enhance your attack speed etc.

There’s a few traits that are legend specific or at least alter mechanics which are only on some legends. However the majority of traits work on whatever legend you use with only a few enhancing specific weapons (Tranquil Benediction, Ferocious Strikes)

Also why is everyone saying mallyx has no use or synergy with a power build? Banish enchantment would be the best way to take down the current bunkers appart from shambow warrior as they all rely on boons to live and getting resistance from pain absorption is nothing to be sniffed at when combined with the heal.

Edit: Yeah dpsing with shiro and mallyx clerics is silly however the point people were making is just because you swap legend it doesn’t mean you’re completely useless or lost out too much on something you had. In the quote you would DPS in zerker gear but all legends can do that mostly.

Everything is forced. There are certain stat combinations for each stance and when you pair one stance will always exert the will over the other stances.

Shiro is for power, the heal, one utility and the elite all track off of power and performs dps
Malyx tracks of condi damage. and performs condi dps
Jalis doesn’t care and goes with the stat of the other stance.
Ventari wants healing power and performs hps
Glint doesn’t care.

This makes it so almost every spec that does not use herald will use invocation.
So a person who is ventari/malyx/shiro never wants to switch out of their stance.
Jalis/glint only serve as utility stances.

So to make things work you get

ventari/jalis , will have healing power, will use invocation
ventari/malyx , healing power + condition damage, precision as well + invocation tree
ventari/shiro, healing power and power, + invocation tree
ventari/glint, will have healing power
jalis/malyx, will have condition damage + precision, invocation tree
jalis/shiro, will have power, + invocation tree
jalis/glint, no one cares, except probably won’t have condition damage
shiro/glint, will have power, + invocation tree

swap invocation traitline for herald as needed.

Build diversity is limited to 8 builds. To even maximize between two stances you need a specific stat combination.

And the amount of builds that will not use herald or invocation seems very large.

Amraston.2846:

What is even the point in discussing wether or not the ranger skills are magical in nature? We know for sure the ranger doesn’t manipulate elements himself, the spirits do it for him. Wether or not there is magic energy involved when a spirit is bond to the physical realm or lend its power to the ranger doesn’t seem very important to me, since magic in GW universe can be something very intuitional. The important thing is that rangers don’t use elemental magic.
The druid does. And I have no problem with the druid being a spellcaster. Its absolutely plausible for me that their culture taps into magic and bother with learning to control magic flows and maybe learn some or another elementalist-esque spell (which they seem to do with some of the glyphs), as long they keep in touch with the spirits and use it in their interest. It makes sense. We could’ve see it coming.
Just the whole celestial thing seems out of place. One or two “sun-themed” skills would be plausible for me, since sunlight is very important to the wildlife and serve the jungle/the spirits. But whats up with the celestial cycles, the moon, the stars, the gravity? These things just don’t matter much, especially there in the jungle (= no tides, no seasons, no change in day-night-cycle over the course of the year, no meaningful respond of the nature to the moon). Yes, it can be put very vaguely under the term of nature, but thats also true for, well, everything. Thats not an argument. They don’t built their skills around everything, they focus on celestial bodies. I just hope we get an (good) explanation from where the heavy obsession with astrology came so suddenly. If they had great interest in it BEFORE they left human realms, they wouldn’t have head to the jungles, because a jungle is after the underground the absolute worst place to study these movements in the sky. No clear sight to the sky (emergent jungle layer covers everything up, cloud cover every day), not really the ability to craft fine-tuned mathematical instruments, and if, they erode very quick due to the humidity and warmth, get fogged all the time, their documentations also have a very low durability, the enviroment is too hostile to just sit somewhere for weeks, watch something and document small changes, etc.pp.. If they developed the interest AFTER arriving to the jungle – why? From pure nature observation they maybe would’ve adapt to the religion of Hylek, which worship the sun. There has to be another reason for the other celestial bodies.
It made perfect sense for canthans to study astronomy, for a trible in the jungle becoming one with the enviroment (! not the universe/skysphere/whatever) not so much. I really hope they have a reasoning behind all this other than.. “well, the moon is kind of part of nature, y’know”.

I do apologise. The topic of whether rituals are magic is simply to tie into how much magic did the ranger use in gw1. How much magic did they use in gw2. And can they be said to be a full blown caster if they have always been having others do the magic for them. I maintained that only recently were rangers apply to practice channeling magics on the levels a of ritualist.

I also maintained, and I think this was lost in the debate of the former, that rangers have always had to be in tune with the spirit world, not to master it. As a result how they would be in tune with celestials became a question.

You bring up a good point.

The black hole. This is an act of gravity manipulation that is so out of sync with what we see the druids devoted their lives too. And I am surprised I did not notice it before.

A black hole is caused by a dead star. The game has you make one by channeling your celestial powers. It is listed as a natural convergence.

But would druids who revere nature created magics that gathers the energy of stars only to destroy them? This has gone beyond summoning spirits of pestilence. This has moved into the realm where the druid would be causing death. Sure the creation of black holes is a natural process, but as we know this is not elemental magic where something is conjured from nothing. This is actual energy from the universe that they gather to either cause a star to die, or they waste the energy into creating a mock dead star.

castlemanic.3198:

Daniel Handler.4816:

All spells in gw1 were magic.

From that we have some options.
All non spell skills are magic.
Not all non spell skills are magic.
No non spell skill is magic.

I will not accept animations as they change. If all animations cannot be said to be lore, then one must individually look at each animation. After all one would not say that all smokescreens are rectangular.

I will not accept names of skills as the game can be translated. Therefore one must look at them one by one.

I will accept the text for skills that explains what is happening because that at least shows intent.

For me, when the text speaks of magic it must be magic. If the text implies magic and we look at the animation, and the lore, then it is magic.

Otherwise we assume to much. After all they have said that the act of shadowstep is not solely magic.

Rangers could cast no spells in gw1.

In gw2 it uses nature magic. The skills of survival are implied in text and animation to be magic, but they are not listed under this traitline. I assume it is magic because it performs the ability that spirit could do in gw1.

Is the summoning of spirits magic? The text implies, the animation does not. The lore is unclear. And the trait that affects spirits under nature magic enhance their ability, but has nothing to do with their summoning. The trait lingering magic seems to imply that nature magic has to do with boons. Backing this up is that the way we can seemingly enhance the spirits ability to give boons. Before we could make them walk. Now they cannot walk. Everything is muddled.

Every other spec gets an increase in abilities they are unambiguously said to have. The only exception is the ranger.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spear_of_Lightning “Spear Attack. If this attack hits, it deals +8…18…20 lightning damage. This attack has 25% armor penetration.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Holy_Spear “Spear Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +5…17…20 damage. If it hits a summoned creature, all nearby foes take 15…75…90 holy damage, and are set on fire for 3 seconds.”

two examples of non-spell skills that quite definitely use magic. Both from the paragon. So clearly there are some non-spell skills that use magic. going off of that, it’s entirely possible that rituals are indeed magical in nature. to follow up on ‘rangers don’t use magic’, here’s a ranger skill that is CLEARLY magical in nature

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Heal_as_One “Elite Skill. For 15 seconds, your animal companion steals 1…16…20 Health whenever it hits with an attack. You and your companion are both healed for 20…87…104 Health. If your companion is dead, it’s resurrected with 50% Health. If you have this skill equipped, your companion will travel with you.”

pretty much the name, description and intent of that skill is one of healing, which in most cases in gw1 was magical in nature. Here’s another:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Symbiotic_Bond “Shout. For 120…264…300 seconds, your animal companion gains 1…3…3 Health regeneration, and half of all damage dealt to your animal companion is redirected to you.”

Now correct me if i’m wrong, but is there a non-magical way of redirecting the damage that an animal takes to you by simply shouting at it really hard? (also the name and text very much imply magical in nature)

one more

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Storm_Chaser “Stance. For 8…18…20 seconds, you move 25% faster, and you gain 1…4…5 Energy whenever you take elemental damage.”

so this is perhaps the least convincing of the three in my opinion, but all three of these skills point to a clearly magical nature of the rangers skillset. It’s entirely possible and even likely that ALL nature rituals that the ranger used are of a magical nature inherent to the ranger.

What’s more, you’ve CLEARLY stated that you certainly see that rangers DO use magic in GW2, even if it’s not the spirits they summon. So it’s not even in the slightest bit possible that rangers can somehow focus and hone in on that magic and become magic casters?

In fact, from your argument, the berserker is even MORE absurd than the druid, because a berserker can set fire to everything around them every time they use a rage skill, even if they don’t have a torch on them. they can also set themselves on fire and not take damage from that. they can even summon a gigantic rock that comes out of the earth for them to shatter with their own fist.

Let’s take a look at a couple of berserker skills.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rupturing_Smash “Jump to the targeted location and slam your hammer down, creating a deadly chain of earthen shock waves that knock back foes.” and the animation clearly supports this.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blaze_Breaker “Smash your torch into the ground, creating a deadly shock wave that conditions foes.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shattering_Blow “Summon a rock in front of you, and then shatter it to gain adrenaline and send rock fragments at all foes in front of you. Foes bleed based on how close they are to the rock. The shock wave produced by this attack reflects projectiles.”

warriors had NO magical capability before the berserker was introduced, and by your outlook on the druid, you should be downright furious that the berserker doesn’t make any sense lorewise.

yet as you’ve stated:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Every other spec gets an increase in abilities they are unambiguously said to have. The only exception is the ranger.

When, with the above three examples, it turns out that the exception is NOT the ranger, it turns out it’s the berserker. one skill even unambiguously uses the word ‘summon’ in it’s description. the very animation of the skill supports it and the name of the skill supports it too.

so i’d suggest that you take a darn hard look at what you’re arguing, because what you say does not line up.

I am going to stop you right there if you think this discussion is going to continuing being on whether the ranger uses magic at all. It is about whether rituals were magic.

A spear of lightning is no more magical than a flame arrow. For as you know in gw2 we have air and fire sigils. Is there a holy sigil? This is an example of assuming too much.

Your claiming the magical foundations behind beastmastery does not exactly lend to a case where every other slightly magical thing must be magic. It just causes more irritation because they don’t explain what ranger magic is. Some magic does not mean all magic.

Is nature magic emphatic connections to animal and spirits?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empathic_Bond they are so strange in gw2 the way they discuss the “magic” that rangers perform, versus the other classes. For instance this skill seems magical but it is placed in wilderness survival, not in nature magic.

Here is another “bond” skill.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Angelic_Bond This skill had the attribute leadership.
Are they implying that paragon and ranger magic is the same? Is this related to shouting? There are all these bond skills that seem to be related but should be separate in lore.

I am quite annoyed that berserker’s are summoning. However their ability to perform this action is an extension of their rage. And it feeds into a mechanic they have alway used. Adrenaline. So nothing is made more unusual. The only irritating skill is the one that says summon.

Malchior.5732:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Malchior.5732:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Malchior.5732:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Malchior.5732:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Dirame.8521:

Knighthonor.4061:

Legends are locked into certain predesigned roles and each legend’s doesn’t seem to sync with other legends and their roles. Legend swap also seem to be the go to design for regenerating energy when fully low as well.

This to me seem to be a flaw in the design of the Revenant’s Legend and Energy system.

Because let’s say, I am a Ventari Support Revenant in full cleric gear and Centaur Legend for support.
I run low on energy. Now what Legend will benefit my role and gear choice now? Centaur has the only heal support of any legend besides Herald.
Should I switch to a condition legend? Or Dwarf legend, or Assassin legend with my cleric gear to get that energy boost?
What benefit would I have in doing so, if I will be locked out of the Centaur Legend when I do swap?

IMO the better solution to this flaw, is by giving each legend an additional set of skills that can be switched in place of the stock skills, that may potentially fit the role of the build I may be building around at the time. This way all stats would still fit the legend I swap to, as well as the role I can continue to play.

The legends do sync.

Taking Ventari for Support is just one form of support. You can take Jalis for damage reduction on the Elite (and now condi damage reduction) OR you can take Mallyx to pull condis off of your teammates.

The most interesting part about the Revenant is the skills and how you can play around with them. That is really not an area where the Rev has issues. If you had gripes with the traits themselves, then I’d be more inclined to agree.

They do not sync. The weapons are the only thing that can be made to sync.

When I swap from ventari to Glint I go from 2000hps to 600. The only benefit being maintaining regeneration. A swap to malyx is pointless because ventari has condi removal. A swap to jalis is pointless because ventari can already give protection and any further damage reduction loss is made up for by healing.

The roles are separated. There is no sync like elementalists.

Wat
Elementalist doesn’t sync like that either.
You swap from Fire and your DPS goes down the drain if you’re using Staff. MH Dagger has no sustained damage in Fire, but little burst in Air, then there’s no Healing on any Element outside of Water. They get locked out of most of their Healing, DPS, Control, Mobility, etc. by swapping while Revenant can swap between two roles that can actually sync up either via weapons, traits, or similar ideas.

Also, Jalis isn’t pointless at all because giving team mates damage reductions outside of Protection is pretty powerful and unique. Arguably, 2k hp/s isn’t necessary if they’re taking like 80% less damage and 5 seconds later you’ll be able to swap back to Ventari anyway.

They would never have that much damage reduction in jalis and your condi removal goes away.

There is every bit more synergy in elementalist as they have functioning combos between their four roles. Not only that effects of one can meaningfully persist In the others.

Please come up with a build for me that is Shiro and Ventari.

RotGD + protection is pretty high and your Condi Removal? Really? It’s designed as our biggest weakness afterall, but if it REALLY bothers you to lose group condi cleansing for 10 seconds, then Mallxy can still deal with them for your team somewhat.

The Elementalist has combos, but that’s kinda the point of their mechanic. They tend to have weak spells with high cooldowns to “balance” their 4 attunements. Even then, the combos you’re talking about are completely possible on Revenant too.
Axe 5 into Glint’s Breath move where they’re being pulled into Staff 5
Be creative.

Oh, and you want a Shiro/Ventari build? Try going for a Control/Support role.
Ventari can do his thing while Shiro provides insane mobility between fights(especially in PvP), strong Control in Jade Winds and allows Quickness Stomps/Rezzes(or even auto-attacking with Staff for orbs).
For PvE you’ll probably want Glint over Shiro, but since you’re hellbent on complaining, Shiro still allows for DPS while Ventari can provide crazy up-time on projectile destruction.

I meant cross stance combos not cross weapon. And when you are ventari leaving to either of the two specs stills makes you deal with either damage reduction or condis poorly.

The point of this mechanic is not to swap. Unless you need to switch roles. Or are too low on energy. What ends up happening is staying in one spec and being any class that had five utility and two weapons. The difference is that you lack any of the great self syngery or the classes you emote.

If we look at the utilities in a vacuum, then sure, I’d agree with you, but this class is obviously designed for you to have to manage your energy and what you need in the current situation and the utilities are for just that, utility. They don’t need to be combo’d between stances(even though there’s nothing stopping you from pulling chain-CCs or Phase traversal into EtD or whatever).

There’s not much wrong in camping Ventari if you want, but you can also swap to Jalis/Mallyx/Whatever for whatever they bring and some energy at the cost of being locked out of Ventari for a bit.
That being said, the only Legend that absolutely demands certain stats to be useful is Mallyx right now.
Jalis, Shiro, Ventari, and Glint all work fine with any stat combo.

Ventari wants healing power. Shiro wants power. Glint is synergy and wants nothing. Jalis is defensive so stats don’t even matter but it seems to want boon duration.

Yet it works without Healing Power just fine(especially the projectile destruction and cleanses) and Shiro works with literally anything.

I wouldn’t neuter the potential of a spec for just fine. And Shiro has life siphon which is damage affected by power. As well as one elite and utility that also do power damage. Specs either assert their will or fold to the will of the other spec.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

It is nice to have a civil argument.

The main thing I want to get rid of on Ventari is the time and energy tax to use the legend skills. You effectively enter Ventari with only 40 energy, since you have to use 10 to summon the tablet. You also pay in time before you can use any of the skills. Considering how overall one-dimensional this set is, it really is frustrating to be the only one with the tax.

Having the tablet instant-summon at your location when you swap is the simplest way to solve this, but I can see other options being possible solutions.

.

How about if the summoning of the tablet is instant and uses no energy?

This way no matter if you are close or far. You can give instant support.

I think the last thing they want is telling people if they don’t use invocation then any hard stun will lock them out if they switch to use their spec.

Imagine how absolutely cool it would be if you were falling and you swapped in the air and summoned the tablet before you hit the ground. Getting out a 6 K heal to someone who would have died when they hit the ground.

Would probably be the best course of action. I wonder if they could code it so the first summon after swapping to Ventari was instant and free, but if you used your elite and/or strayed too far from the tablet it still had the cast time and energy cost?

Perhaps. I would just remove that cast and cost on the summon whenever it summoned. Because you aren’t fully using ventari’s powers until the summon has occurred. Therefore why would you be using energy. And no one wants to rely on invocation. Swapping to a spec means you should be able to use that spec.

If they want to be radical. Remove all cast times except for the elite. Make it so ventari only is hurt by cc when it is trying to be offensive. But I get them putting a casting time on movement.

Malchior.5732:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Malchior.5732:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Malchior.5732:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Dirame.8521:

Knighthonor.4061:

Legends are locked into certain predesigned roles and each legend’s doesn’t seem to sync with other legends and their roles. Legend swap also seem to be the go to design for regenerating energy when fully low as well.

This to me seem to be a flaw in the design of the Revenant’s Legend and Energy system.

Because let’s say, I am a Ventari Support Revenant in full cleric gear and Centaur Legend for support.
I run low on energy. Now what Legend will benefit my role and gear choice now? Centaur has the only heal support of any legend besides Herald.
Should I switch to a condition legend? Or Dwarf legend, or Assassin legend with my cleric gear to get that energy boost?
What benefit would I have in doing so, if I will be locked out of the Centaur Legend when I do swap?

IMO the better solution to this flaw, is by giving each legend an additional set of skills that can be switched in place of the stock skills, that may potentially fit the role of the build I may be building around at the time. This way all stats would still fit the legend I swap to, as well as the role I can continue to play.

The legends do sync.

Taking Ventari for Support is just one form of support. You can take Jalis for damage reduction on the Elite (and now condi damage reduction) OR you can take Mallyx to pull condis off of your teammates.

The most interesting part about the Revenant is the skills and how you can play around with them. That is really not an area where the Rev has issues. If you had gripes with the traits themselves, then I’d be more inclined to agree.

They do not sync. The weapons are the only thing that can be made to sync.

When I swap from ventari to Glint I go from 2000hps to 600. The only benefit being maintaining regeneration. A swap to malyx is pointless because ventari has condi removal. A swap to jalis is pointless because ventari can already give protection and any further damage reduction loss is made up for by healing.

The roles are separated. There is no sync like elementalists.

Wat
Elementalist doesn’t sync like that either.
You swap from Fire and your DPS goes down the drain if you’re using Staff. MH Dagger has no sustained damage in Fire, but little burst in Air, then there’s no Healing on any Element outside of Water. They get locked out of most of their Healing, DPS, Control, Mobility, etc. by swapping while Revenant can swap between two roles that can actually sync up either via weapons, traits, or similar ideas.

Also, Jalis isn’t pointless at all because giving team mates damage reductions outside of Protection is pretty powerful and unique. Arguably, 2k hp/s isn’t necessary if they’re taking like 80% less damage and 5 seconds later you’ll be able to swap back to Ventari anyway.

They would never have that much damage reduction in jalis and your condi removal goes away.

There is every bit more synergy in elementalist as they have functioning combos between their four roles. Not only that effects of one can meaningfully persist In the others.

Please come up with a build for me that is Shiro and Ventari.

RotGD + protection is pretty high and your Condi Removal? Really? It’s designed as our biggest weakness afterall, but if it REALLY bothers you to lose group condi cleansing for 10 seconds, then Mallxy can still deal with them for your team somewhat.

The Elementalist has combos, but that’s kinda the point of their mechanic. They tend to have weak spells with high cooldowns to “balance” their 4 attunements. Even then, the combos you’re talking about are completely possible on Revenant too.
Axe 5 into Glint’s Breath move where they’re being pulled into Staff 5
Be creative.

Oh, and you want a Shiro/Ventari build? Try going for a Control/Support role.
Ventari can do his thing while Shiro provides insane mobility between fights(especially in PvP), strong Control in Jade Winds and allows Quickness Stomps/Rezzes(or even auto-attacking with Staff for orbs).
For PvE you’ll probably want Glint over Shiro, but since you’re hellbent on complaining, Shiro still allows for DPS while Ventari can provide crazy up-time on projectile destruction.

I meant cross stance combos not cross weapon. And when you are ventari leaving to either of the two specs stills makes you deal with either damage reduction or condis poorly.

The point of this mechanic is not to swap. Unless you need to switch roles. Or are too low on energy. What ends up happening is staying in one spec and being any class that had five utility and two weapons. The difference is that you lack any of the great self syngery or the classes you emote.

If we look at the utilities in a vacuum, then sure, I’d agree with you, but this class is obviously designed for you to have to manage your energy and what you need in the current situation and the utilities are for just that, utility. They don’t need to be combo’d between stances(even though there’s nothing stopping you from pulling chain-CCs or Phase traversal into EtD or whatever).

There’s not much wrong in camping Ventari if you want, but you can also swap to Jalis/Mallyx/Whatever for whatever they bring and some energy at the cost of being locked out of Ventari for a bit.
That being said, the only Legend that absolutely demands certain stats to be useful is Mallyx right now.
Jalis, Shiro, Ventari, and Glint all work fine with any stat combo.

Ventari wants healing power. Shiro wants power. Glint is synergy and wants nothing. Jalis is defensive so stats don’t even matter but it seems to want boon duration.

Is this similar to how evil demons won’t remove conditions on charging the mantra?

shadowfanatik.5160:

yes you are right, I did choose to read this thread and respond in admittedly not a totally clear state of mind, but still as a fellow player i have just as much right to voice my opinion as you do. you choose to view me as self righteous, such was not my intent to be such but oh well.

All I mean to say is that you have both been arguing for days over something that may well be retconned within the next few months, until the devs decide whether to change it or not the druid is what it is lore wise, not everyone is going to like it, does that mean the devs will change it, not necessarily, in fact they seem to very rarely comment on lore issues unless blatant contradictions arise. even should they change it there is no guarantee that the will change it in a way that supports your view on the specialization’s lore.

as a side note I apologize if I personally offended you, such was not my intent. i simply believe that this arguement has gone past the point of theoretical debate and to the point of arguing for the sake of arguing.

I wish they commented. I never wanted them to change to my perspective. I just wanted them to comment. And I wanted them to know that this concern existed. So they can at least make sure their explanations alleviate some concerns.

I am thankful this discussion took place because it allowed the community to express their opinions on some lore. Stuff we have not talked about in a while. Such as what is magic.

FLiP.7680:

Rain.9213:

and I’m pretty sure Ranger starts with Longbow so I dont see a problem with setting it to a two handed

Ranger starts with an axe. :P
But I agree with you, staff is amazing, it is useful in every situation.

No they changed it. It’s longbow now.

FLiP.7680:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Unless you need to switch roles.

I believe that’s the whole point of the class. When you swap you have to assume a new stance, not replace “1” for “one”. The way you say seems like you want to play as Ventari, not Revenant.

It’s just weird. The only one that seems to sync is Glint.

Malyx jalis Shiro ventari.

When you spec with them you don’t want to swap out of them.
They all follow very specific stats.

But yes you can harmonize.
Malyx ventari would only ever be apothecary or settlers. But there is no condition precision healing power set.
So you rely on maniacal persistence to make them mesh. And now you have to use invocation. Which means tada you made a build. Because nothing else fits.

Applying this 10 builds exist.

10 builds that can do two roles. That is powerful in itself.

Metaphorical I just wish I didn’t have to swap gear to swap legends.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

It is nice to have a civil argument.

The main thing I want to get rid of on Ventari is the time and energy tax to use the legend skills. You effectively enter Ventari with only 40 energy, since you have to use 10 to summon the tablet. You also pay in time before you can use any of the skills. Considering how overall one-dimensional this set is, it really is frustrating to be the only one with the tax.

Having the tablet instant-summon at your location when you swap is the simplest way to solve this, but I can see other options being possible solutions.

.

How about if the summoning of the tablet is instant and uses no energy?

This way no matter if you are close or far. You can give instant support.

I think the last thing they want is telling people if they don’t use invocation then any hard stun will lock them out if they switch to use their spec.

Imagine how absolutely cool it would be if you were falling and you swapped in the air and summoned the tablet before you hit the ground. Getting out a 6 K heal to someone who would have died when they hit the ground.