Guild Wars 2

FenrirSlakt.3692:

That aside, those Tengu shooting arrows are just there to add flavour to the game, so that people don’t complain about them not doing anything.

That’s what I meant by it being a game mechanic. It shows the Tengu doing something but I don’t think they intended players to actually approach the wall, but they included the code to attack players just to keep them from either exploiting it to their advantage or lingering at the wall in hopes of finding something that they may not intend to be found just yet, possibly via glitching or other illegal means.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Conclusion: Tengu are psychic!!

Or they do have a spotter who is a mesmer that is simply hiding behind a illusion.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though my point was in that they could, not that they would nor should. Anyone can use your argument, and fail to be bashed down, because honestly it’s unknown (unless you’re a bonafide actual seer and can read the future).

I’ll concede the entire argument to you. Also I thought the Seers had become extinct….

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s like most Living World content updates, where the set level is 80, but any character underleveled is upscaled – the content isn’t downscaled at all, and you’ll still be underpowered compared to lvl 80s, but you can participate – and survive, if good enough.

Oh ok thank you for explaining.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It is never said in-game why Abaddon was imprisoned (or rather, wasn’t until GW2). However, it was out of game, as well as explaining why he went into the war rather than just stating that he did (which is all that’s said in GW2 – that he gifted magic, then went to war and lost). Out of game, it is explained not only before GW2 for the just mentioned, that he was tasked with gifting magic, did so too freely, and when it was revoked it was, in fact, the Margonites who first acted out, and the Forgotten retaliated in war; then Abaddon joined in, defending his worshipers from being slaughtered for a mere desecration of the Temple of the Six Gods, followed by the other gods. Though this is from Asian lore records, and a lot of their lore is altered from ours because China – as one place – has regulations that would otherwise ban the game from their country if the lore wasn’t changed.

I thought there were pieces you could find in the actual game that retold what was in the manuals. I also forgot about the manuals when I wrote the comment, else I would of written in-universe instead of in-game.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

This, by far, expands people’s understanding and capabilities of debate. Stating that Abaddon is dead, does not stiffen, but instead redirects the theories. In the “okay, so not Abaddon… then what about this!” direction.

Now only if the “Sylvari are Dragon Minions.” topics can be just as easily moved towards other directions.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Stealth is supposed to also muffle noise, otherwise it wouldn’t work on dredge.

Muffled not entirely erase it, as some have pointed out the Tengu appear to be firing blind. They may have trained themselves to have an heightened sense of hearing, or have devise some technological device that detects even the faintest sounds. Also something to consider, this could be a simple game mechanic to keep overly curious players from lingering in the area expecting the Tengu to respond since there seems to be few civilians in the area that need aid.

Gabby.3205:

Because when members of an army are killed by people that were not involved in the conflict to begin with, said army should start wondering if these people that are not their allies aren’t actually their enemies. The Tengu crossed the line this time.

We already well aware the Tengu aren’t our allies or enemies, they have made it clear they are a neutral faction that will prioritize their own survival over the interest of other groups. What I would like to know is why were the fallen even near the Tengu’s wall. I’m pretty sure evacuations of civilians is the chief priority for the time being, not seeing if the Tengu have opened their gates in the midst of a siege.

Gabby.3205:

It is possible indeed that they couldn’t tell the difference between friend and foe.

If they really shoot people down thinking that they were part of Scarlet’s army, then a formal apology and an explanation are enough to settle this. I hope that ANet has this covered.

I would be surprise if we didn’t receive mail from the Tengu’s leaders expressing their deep regret at the unintentional deaths of adventurers and citizens of Lion’s Arch during the siege or at least acknowledge the incident due to how much attention it garter on the forums.

Farzo.8410:

Guild Wars 2.

Guild Wars 2: The Molten Crusade

Guild Wars 2: Wrath of the Pale Tree

Guild Wars 2: Catacombs

Guild Wars 2: Mists of Cantha

Guild Wars 2: Warlords of Elona

This got me to laugh to the point I’m having a coughing fit, yet I have no idea why I find this so funny,

Gabby.3205:

No problem. As one of the many commanders of the Pact, I think it is the Pact’s problem.

Please elaborate why it is the Pact’s problem that a few members on their own accord got themselves killed by the Tengu?

Gabby.3205:

War is always a waste of resources. However, taking into consideration that this is a work of fiction, war is a plausible outcome (because, as I said before, wars were declared for far less). The thing is, the Tengu are not our allies, not even close to that. We also know that they are dangerous and wouldn’t hesitate on killing us on our time of need, since that’s exactly what they did. They are a threat. I wouldn’t be surprised if the members of the Captain Council started wondering if the Tengu will not prey on what is left of the people of Lion’s Arch after Scarlet is done.
If they were afraid of some strangles that came too close to their walls, they could have just sealed the gate and waited for it to be over instead of killing people. That’s why I think that they overreacted. I really don’t think that they reaction was justified.

Look at it from their perspective. Scarlet’s army is comprised of Asura, Charr, Dredge, Humans, Krait, and Sylvari. Now Dredge and Krait are impossible to confuse for any of the citizens or defenders of Lion’s Arch, but the other four mentioned races can easily be confused for Scarlet’s forces. Seeing as portions of four of the various races comprising the pact have joined Scarlet, the Tengu probably has assumed a few Norn have joined as well. Now add the fact that a few Dredge have approached the wall with at least one driller, the Tengu probably assume they are also targeted. They are now in a predicament by Scarlet’s own doing. They can’t guarantee if any Asura, Charr, Human, Norn, or Sylvari that approaches their wall isn’t working for Scarlet. Do they risk the safety of their home by opening up? Or do they condemn all that approach to a hailstorm of arrows until the conflict has been resolve? Unlike the above mention races which have another stronghold to retreat to, the Tengu only have the Dominion of the Four Winds. If it falls they have no where to go.

Gabby.3205:

These “careless adventurers” are members of the very orders that form the Pact, though. I would say that it is the Pact’s problem..

And as one of the many commanders of the Pact it is my tactical opinion that it is not the Pact’s problem as those members did not adhere to the ample warning given. In fact they are more accountable than the citizens as they only went there out of curiosity not in a panic induce mania. Taking into consideration what the Tengu have generously shared with us, it should be obvious no aid will come from the Tengu at this time.

Gabby.3205:

Except that almost all the known Tengu on Tyria are behind that wall. It wasn’t a “certain portion” of them that denied help (and actually attacked) the citizens of Lion’s Arch. It was their nation as a whole. That’s more than enough to declare war. Wars were started for far less..

In the Tengu’s case their hostile response is justifiable, as you mention this is their entire nation. There is nowhere for them to retreat to and even if there was they had to go through both Scarlet’s forces and the Lionguard as Captain Ironbeard’s orders were to butcher anyone not on the Lionguard side.

On the other hand us attacking the Tengu would be foolhardy and a waste of resources. We’ve already at war with the Elder Dragons and have yet fully recovered from our campaign against Zhaitan. The conflict between us and Scarlet is solely due to her deliberately making war upon us.

Gabby.3205:

Desperate people trying to escape a maniac that is burning their city down are responsible for their own deaths because they searched for help on their usually friendly neighbors? I disagree..

The Tengu aren’t friendly, they have specifically stated that they will shoot on sight at the slightest sign of trouble. At best the Tengu were the neighbors that would scold the children dared to approach them and reprimand their parents for letting their children be easily manipulated into such dares.

Arikyali.5804:

Yep, anyone that gets too close, enemy or not, gets shot down.

but you know, they could at least…look before they shoot?

(I was actually stealthed. They shouldn’t have seen me!)

Doesn’t mean they couldn’t hear you. All it took was a misplace step that made noise and they could barrage that area.

As for looking before they shoot, how would they identify which is us which is Scarlet’s minions?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There are thousands of outright ridiculous theories that have been debunked which can be brought back by your argument and the act of hand-waving the counter-evidence as “it will be retconned.” I referenced no specific one.

True, they could do that. But I don’t think they need to use my flawed logic to continue defending their hypotheses and theories, as evident by how persistent they proven before I posted this argument.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I never said you said it. It was said here, by Assassin X. You then responded to Narcemus explaining that Abaddon is, in fact, dead.

Oh I misunderstood.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And for your argument: Kormir’s statement is that Abaddon’s thoughts and power is within her; his “will” is broken, because he is gone. He is no longer an individual, just disjointed thoughts – memories, if you will. Furthermore, Olias also says that Abaddon is dead and will not return – Grenth will ensure he won’t, even if he could.

I wasn’t aware of Olias statement, thank you for sharing that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Erm… Highly unknown subject that, imo, deviates too much from the topic at hand.

True it is going off topic, a bad habit of mine.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You realize you get upscaled, right?

Actually I didn’t know that, I was led to believe the content wasn’t scaled for those below level 80.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think that, even with developer statements debunking ideas, such theories will still spring out – simply because the theory makers don’t know of such statements.

True these hypotheses and theories do still form regardless of what anyone says. It just to me more can be contributed to the debate using in game lore than out of game lore in the case of Abaddon. All Anet has said is that he’s dead, the same thing they said about Zhaitan. They haven’t said, at least that anyone has pointed out, they are beyond resurrection.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Erm… You’re wrong on this. Y’see, what we see in-game has been “possible futures” and “echoes of reality”. There has yet to be any confirmed existence of alternate realities.

In the former, while travel back and forth is possible, the future is ever changing and thus the possible future will disappear once diverted away; and in this situation, Abaddon is dead in all possible futures, because he died in the past.

This is one of the many reasons I dislike the inclusion of time travel or alternative realities, I find them to be a colossal headache.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In the latter, what we would see – such as in the Fall of Abaddon – is not Abaddon. It is an imperfect clone. And what would be missing, if nothing else, is what makes him a true god (or rather, made) – that indestructible core of magic and divinity. At least, by all indications – I suppose it is possible for the Mists to effectively recreate Abaddon in its full, but even if this is done, depending on what Dessa’s story is, he may be unable to escape that bubble of reality (his “fractal” so to speak).

So the Fractals are something akin to a Mesmer’s phantasm? So long as we remain within the sphere of influence they will be tangible but the moment we leave they can no longer effect us. Also I would like to point out the last part of this portion is the point I was trying to make. I never would of thought it possible that Abaddon could simply be recreated from the very Mists themselves, as I accepted the Fractals to be magical phenomena that replays past events to the best of its abilities.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Which, I should add, creates and interesting observation of the colossus: he leaves the Fractal, something which given by Dessa and the whole respawning (a lore fact) shouldn’t be possible. Indicating that he either isn’t leaving but simply “despawning” or that he was not part of the Fractal in the first place.

So that’s why people were mentioning the colossus, I haven’t done any fractals as I’m not level 80.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You are also wrong here. While this is the most common way, especially across other stories/games/whatnot, and is often the only way in other such stories/games/whatnot, it is not so with Guild Wars. ArenaNet frequently gives interviews, answering questions in lore, as well as posting in forums and other places to answer such confusions. This too, counts as lore. And not only that, but it comes from the developers themselves, a “behind the scenes” in what’s happening in the lore, if you will. The whole “Abaddon is dead” statement is such a situation. This is not questionable, it may change since it isn’t in the game and thus isn’t a retcon, but it is an objective truth of the game’s lore until otherwise.

I’ll concede the entire argument to you, you make excellent arguments even the sillier portions of your argument didn’t detract from your point.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

However, it would be no different than seeing Abaddon die ourselves, thus making it an objective truth.

Which we did.

True it is an objective truth as you have proven, but my point was to use the Lore present in game, such as Kormir stating Abaddon’s will is broken, instead of using an out of game source, such as Anet’s statement “Abaddon’s dead”, generates an intellectual debate that uncovers ideas that maybe even the developers didn’t think of. An example would be how you said it could be possible that Abaddon could be recreated in the mists. A writer could happen on this idea and find it an interesting one. However instead of Abaddon they could use the idea as a means to introduce a brand new god or even resurrect the Elder Dragons in a very interesting way.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

By your very arguments, I can say that Tyria is a world made out of poop and you will have no means of counteracting me.

Careful there Konig there might be a few people on these forums who would leap in agreement to that, and I doubt that is your objective with this statement. Also I should warn you that using my own logic against me may prove to be less effective than anticipated.

Now about your argument, if you want to get technical your statement couldn’t be refuted even if the Guild Wars franchise was over since waste produced by the world’s inhabitants do become part of the soil over time in one way or another.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Your argument makes everything a contested lore fact or speculation. Anything is possible by your argument, and it would be impossible to argue against even the most asinine statements.

From your perspective, I’ll concede that’s mostly my fault how I worded my argument. When it comes to out of universe statements I feel they are contested until that particularly story has concluded due to reasons I already mentioned. Why I don’t feel the same with in-universe statements is because they add something to the story’s world as well well constructed debates. Out of universe statements only seem to provoke sparks within a community as it seems only a few want to have an in-depth debate.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Scarlet is your PC’s daughter.

Well that explains the insanity, sorry everyone it not an Elder Dragon that been whispering in her head.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You cannot refute any of these statements, even sillier ones, because of your very argument of “until the franchise is over, anything can be retconned.”

Actually I can refute all of them if I wished, just you are able to refute my counter arguments right back.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And furthermore, there would be no point at all in documenting or discussing the game’s lore, because anything of it can and would be believed to be false, and every theory out there, no matter how little evidence it has, and how much counter-evidence it has, will still be possible “just because the writers may decide to retcon anything.”

Yet even when retcon previously established Lore continues to enhance the story experience, depending on how the retcon is handled. Should we throw out every myth and legend simply because they are inaccurate? Tell me what do out of universe statements enhance in a story? I’m not saying they shouldn’t make out of universe statements I’m actually trying to say that using them as the basis of a counter argument to a debate should be avoided as it doesn’t offer much.

Off topic I’m sensing a reference to certain hypotheses concerning a certain Jungle Dragon that may or may not have a name that starts with an M, which has been very persistent despite your and various others attempts to lay it to rest.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But here’s the thing: ArenaNet is very careful in not retconing their objective truths. The only things that they could be argued to retcon are their subjective truths – such as the origins surrounding Glint. They have not once retconned an objective truth. And Abaddon’s death is an objective truth.

I’ll concede with this point.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And still he will be gone, thus the original statement of “nothing says Abaddon is dead in GW” is still false.

I don’t recall actually saying that, but if I have unintentionally imply it please inform me where so I can avoid making the same mistake twice. I have however said that Kormir states his will is broken, which implies he still exists in some form. So he can be resurrected at a later date if they feel they should, and it won’t be breaking their objective truth as he was at one point dead.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But they wouldn’t be a complete fool. Because they did say so, even if they later decided otherwise.

My reply towards Narcemus was sarcastic in nature, since their reply was also sarcastic. Sometimes my sarcasm is funny other times not so much, hence I try to avoid being sarcastic on forums.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But Jeff – and other developers – have stressed on multiple year-spanning occasions that they are not going to focus heavily on the story of Abaddon again. Honestly speaking, something akin to either an old remnant of his servants or the Fall of Abaddon fractal is likely all we’ll ever possibly get. Given that they’ve maintained the stance for so long – for five years via mentions – it is unlikely that they’ll break it.

I’ll concede this point as well to you.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Chances are, the only way for Abaddon to return, will be some new writer replacing the old writers.

This has filled me with so much dread.

locoman.1974:

Who says they haven’t?… for all we know they’re just hitting everything that comes near the gate, whatever side they’re on

I’ve read somewhere (might of been this thread might of been another discussing about the Tengu) a player observed them pin cushioning a pair of Dredge that got near the gate, also there appears to be a wrecked driller near their wall.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A great hero like Evon doesn’t need assistance from an evil doer like Kiel. I mean, she can barely take care of the citizens who voted her in.

Actually the Captain’s Council elected her, not the citizens. They merely supported her to get the trade agreement, which did have a effect on the Council’s decision. Also Evon’s no hero, a hero wouldn’t prioritize their merchandise over lives. A hero wouldn’t have to be drafted into the lionguard. A hero wouldn’t be sulking like a sniveling coward. A true hero would be rallying the people, securing medical and other equipment, offering their assistance to the Lionguard to retake Lion’s Arch or the Vigil to repay their kindness. A hero wouldn’t make other business owners worry that they will be put out of business due to the situation.

Gabby.3205:

I’m talking about group effort here. If we can kill dragons, we can kill them too.
Might need the Pact though.

A waste of Pact resources, its purpose is to fight Dragons not avenge some careless adventurers who ignored the Tengu guards warning that they will fire upon anyone that approaches the wall at the first sign of danger. Following the same logic the non-playable races should declare war on the five playable races, the Dredge, and the Krait due to all the trouble a certain portion of them have caused. Any citizens that are harmed or killed by the Tengu are likewise responsible for their own deaths, the Tengu have given more than ample warnings.

CETheLucid.3964:

Stay on topic.

I think the thread reach a point there is very little we could say that would contribute meaningful discussion to the topic.

Dustfinger.9510:

Thank you.

You welcome.

Dustfinger.9510:

I love these lore forums because I love to discuss lore and it’s possibilities. But I think we still need to acknowledge the boundaries the writers have created. So when they give us out-of-game, word-of-god rules, it only serves to help guide and focus our discussions. Certainly it is limiting for themselves, but they would know the consquences of setting those rules. The consequences being that going against those self imposed rules is going to cause fans of the lore to be less interested and less invested in it because nothing is sacred and therefor there really is nothing to discuss because it can all change at a whim.

I also like lurking about the lore forums and I do acknowledge the boundaries set by the writers. However I have noted certain things within the Lore that they at least thought about bringing Abaddon back, and simply left the potential hook there in case it is ever needed. One such hook is the possibility of alternative realities, since they did not state there are only one set of human gods for all realities they have left it (unintentional or intentional is up to perspective) open that Abaddon can return yet wouldn’t be breaking their original statement of he’s gone. Another hook presented within the lore itself. Kormir says his will is broken, but not that it can’t be reformed. I will concede the odds are not in favor of his will reforming but the potential hook for such a story is there.

Dustfinger.9510:

We as fans can still discuss what we wished would have happened. I think we just shouldn’t confuse it with the set boundaries. especially when the writers have expressed their intentions against those ideas. So we can say things like “I wish there were elves and fleshy dwarves in GW2, an Abbadon survived” but we also need to acknowledge that the writers have descided that they aren’t a good fit for their world.

I agree we should be allowed to discuss such and that we should be aware of the writer’s current stance on the matter. However I disagree we should use that current stance as the sole basis of an counter argument. It doesn’t really add substance to the debate and often causes more problems then it resolves. Also I don’t recall them saying that Abaddon couldn’t be resurrected only that he is indeed dead. Even if they said he couldn’t be resurrected it doesn’t prevent one of his old servants from attempting to do so. Although I imagine many of the players won’t even lift a finger to stop said servant in the belief they will automatically fail regardless of what the players do.

Dustfinger.9510:

All in all, judging from this post of yours, we aren’t too far off (if at all) in terms of where we stand. it’s just the definitions of terms like ‘contested’ and ‘lore’ that we differ on because I think yours may be a little too loose to express the common ground.

Either way, I’m glad you are able and willing to explain your view in more depth

I have to agree we do seem to be saying similar beliefs.

Dustfinger.9510:

By that rule, there is absolutely no lore because everything is contested an infinite number of ways. But we know that there is lore. The term ‘contested’ means that there is some actual working evidence in conflict. But just acknowleging the infinite possibilities of the universe isn’t evidence at work.

First before I give my counter argument allow me to say you make a good counter argument.

The evidence that conflicts with their statement is the mere opening of the alternative reality flood gates, without any thought towards the possible implications of their opening. They have provided a multitude of ways they could reintroduced Abaddon directly to the story of Guild Wars 2, a few I can think of will technically not break their “He’s gone” statement.

Onto the topic of Lore. Lore is presented from an in-game perspective, which means it can be inaccurate or outright wrong as legends in the real world can be. This is done to give the writer an loophole they can exploit to make alterations to any part of the story. Using available lore sources as counter to hypotheses and theories are expected and seemingly encouraged by story writers, as the debates themselves generate potential plot hooks the writer could use if they are subjugated to the horrible Writer’s Block. However those using “Oh the writer said this character is gone ergo god has spoken.” don’t encourage intellectual debates which could potentially help the writer by providing some inspiration.

Dustfinger.9510:

Ehh. Literally everything has a possibility for a retcon but that doesn’t make every thing contested. Right now word of god said Abbadon is dead. That means he’s dead. If that gets retconned later then he won’t be but right now the lore is that he is dead.

Actually it does make everything contested, as there is no proof they will stand by the decision in any and all circumstances.

Anyways there is still a possibility that the artifacts, forbidden knowledge, and even surviving servants of Abaddon can still pose a threat to Tyria. They could use any of these to satisfy those who wish for Abaddon’s return yet maintain their “He’s gone” response.

Narcemus.1348:

SIGH We’ve been through this before… In light of no new evidence, what we have been told is taken as solid lore…

Otherwise we could just go off on a rampage and decide the triple headed jungle wurm is actually Melandru… I mean, until GW universe is over, they could always decide that this is a much more entertaining story [/sarcasm]

You are correct they could if they wanted to. Here’s a thought try using the lore presented to explain why something can or can’t be, instead of relying on the “Oh they said so” excuse. This way one doesn’t look like a complete fool when the decision is changed.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Really, the most powerful merchant city in the world, and there is a question as to why he might want it to be maintained and protected? Not to mention his company headquarters are there.

A headquarters can be relocated, another city will rise in merchant power, life continues.

Narcemus.1348:

Kormir specifically states, once becoming a goddess, that Abaddon is no more. On top of that, we have Word of God (a.k.a. Word of Grubb) that he is indeed dead.

Until the Guild Wars Franchise is concluded the validity of his death will always be contested. This is because the decision can always be changed at a later date if it would mean a more entertaining story.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Evon is not a nice guy. No one with any sense has ever claimed he was. No one with any sense should believe he should be nice. He’s a merchant. He is greedy, manipulative and cut throat.

That’s what we been trying to tell all his fans, there is no reason for Evon to do anything even if he was a member of the Captain’s Council. Ellen thought the evidence was significant, perhaps Captain Ironbeard too, but the rest didn’t even consider taking the slightest precautions. Evon’s customers are found everywhere, so what a single city was razed to the ground. He can use it as an excuse to escalate prices, he can use the destruction to drive what little competition he has out of business as there is no laws in Tyria that prevent a monopoly.

If the Ash Legion did indeed send Evon’s Warband, and if Evon is still part of the Legion, their mission doesn’t concern the well being of the citizens or the city. They want money from the city, why is anyone’s guess, but that was the warband’s objective. This objective can still be met through Lion’s Arch destruction, more so than before it was destroyed. There is a demand for building materials, equipment, and even mercenaries. As a member of the Captain’s Council Evon would be theoretically immune from being conscripted by the Lionguard, thus he could do whatever he felt like without fear of consequences.

Sublimatio.6981:

Remember that humans appeared on Tyria and HAD TO find their place to live. Charrs already had so much fields and didn’t want to share, so they pushed them back. And Ascalon kept their land for OVER 1000 years. Remember in these times, charrs were just mindless beasts who couldn’t even talk, only growl. It’s kinda dumb to “reclaim” something after so many years. That’s why it wasn’t charrs who succeeded at The Searing, they were just pawns in a bigger game, game made by Abaddon. He wanted to destroy Orr, so he ordered HIS MINIONS to give some magic to charrs (minions of his minions) and lead them, these mindless cats, to attack everything.

~if you ever think charrs were smart and individual

So, no, without help of HUMAN god, they would never breach The Great Northern Wall. And still they didn’t reclaim “their” lands, as our King Adelbern, and Ascalon, lives forever <3

Is this supposed to make feel sorry for the Tyrian humans? Also Adelbern is not my king, nor will he ever be. He stubbornly refused the aid of the other humans simply because of old grievances, his stubbornness led to the death of his only son, and finally the complete destruction of Ascalon as a nation.

What makes him better then his predecessor?

Also existing as a spirit unable to pass through the mists to stand before the gods seem a fate worse than anything Abaddon could ever inflict upon the Ascalonians. That was the greatest achievement they could obtain, to stand before the Gods in the Halls of Heroes. In his stubborn vanity he has denied every Ascalonian that fought that day access to the Hall of Heroes. He has condemn them to a eternity of fighting a battle already lost.

Jaken.6801:

She ahs her goal in reach and is ready to snipe it… (charr training reference)

So she on a safari?
The question is what is she hunting that she believes a mere rifle can harm?

I think I might of unintentionally led to a pun.

Amok Threeohthree.8501:

I say we kill them all once we dealt with Scarlet

It’s probably this mentality that makes them react the way they do. They know regardless of what they do there will be those who want to hunt them into extinction just for their feathers, as well as those who would make jokes alluding to such.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It’s ironic that while Kiel is ordering the Lionguard to plunder Evon’s supplies, she is far outside the city delegating other people to risk their lives. Why isn’t she in the city, protecting it like we are? Evon ironically seems closer to the action than she is, and he’s but a humble merchant. I guess she doesn’t want to get her hands more dirty than they already are.

Because we players don’t require a singular leader to maintain order. Morale is at an all time low, Lion’s Arch burns, their commander may very well be dying or even dead. From how it is presented to me Ellen appears to have been promoted to second in command following her ascension to the Captain’s Council. If this is true then it falls to her to maintain discipline amongst the Lionguard.

ShroomOneUp.6913:

MAYBE? MAYBE SHE SWOOPS IN BEFORE THE MIASMA REACHED DEADLY LEVEL AND PICKS UP THE NPC IN FORT MARRINER !

I’ve heard swooping is bad….

Yojimaru.4980:

You were saying?

Captain Ironbeard is probably attempting to get back in the fight, which would require Ellen and a few other Lionguard to keep him from injuring himself further, since he is a Norn. I have a feeling in the next living story we may see Captain Ironbeard personally leading the first wave of the counter attack, since I don’t see a proud Norn warrior sitting back while others fight.

Anyways it could be possible that Ellen has just saved Evon’s life with this conscription. From what I read he left a member of the Captain’s Council to die, who hold absolute authority over the city and its citizens. Perhaps they wanted him executed for this behavior and she suggested instead they enlist him into the Lionguard and his assets be used to help retake the city. They found this to be a more suitable punishment then immediate death, since it is implied Evon comes off as a greedy individual. Another possibility is this was prearranged between Evon and Ellen, with Evon’s behavior simply him maintaining his disguise despite the circumstances.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

It’s not a mechanic darkbattlemage – whether or not something damages players is always a conscious decision by Arenanet. The game can distinguish between NPC and player – if they didn’t want it to kill players then it wouldn’t. It’s intentional.

It could be an intentional mechanic to keep players from spending to long near the Dominion of Winds, since the forums show heavy interest in the Tengu being playable.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

The Tengu are not getting involved because they are not getting involved in anything, nor do they seem to care about anything that goes on in the world. And this war is taking place at their front door.

Why should they open their front door and invite the war into their homes? They are participating in the war, from a strong defensive position. They shouldn’t over extend themselves for people that may very well stab them in the back, especially considering both the history the Tengu have with humanity and certain responses. Even the Charr and humans are having difficulties working alongside one another.

Jski.6180:

Its realty dark that they will kill ppl running too close to a wall during the attk on LA.

Behind that wall lays their home city, they are doing their duty and protecting their people from what they perceive as possible threats. Sure refugees aren’t much of a threat via appearance, but the Tengu have no way of identifying them as truly genuine refugees or Scarlet Minions in disguise. Also they don’t know the capabilities of the miasma that Scarlet is spreading, so it stands to reason the precaution they would take is simply kill any who approach in fear of them being a carrier of this dangerous toxin.

This behavior is completely normal given the circumstances. Each of the five playable races would probably respond in a similar manner under the same circumstances.

As for if this will be addressed in the coming Living Story patch or in the next season, I highly doubt it as the Tengu already provided ample warnings they were willing to take such actions to ensure their people’s protection.

Another possibility this is simply a game mechanic and in the actual Lore no defender or refugee were shot by the Tengu.

Hobbs.9260:

This is a siege, the fighting and the chaos is the lore. No time to talk and tell stories when you are fighting for your life. If they did that even more people would complain about it being lame and unrealistic- me for one. This is all only the set up for the real finale.

There’s plenty of time to talk when you sitting in the refugee camp, hurdle against a campfire, near or within a fortress some distance from the battle.

Traveller.7496:

He said he was a thief using stealth skills. Now, if you caught someone prowling on your back yard decked in all black and obviously trying to hide (and possibly looking for something to steal), how willing would you be to ask what they want first and turn them into pincushions later?

Not very willing if I had to take a guess.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

They should check their targets before firing. Just don’t indiscriminately murder whatever gets close to their border.

That is war.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Sure, that was just my passive aggressive way of saying, “Why did you bother posting this thread, it’s been done before.”

The same reason you posting in this thread. Because they can.

CETheLucid.3964:

You’d be grumpy too if you were chased out of your home, suffered heavy losses, and suddenly made to play hero with a person a former rival you don’t exactly see eye to eye with.

Sounds like a Tuesday….

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Now now, I’m sure you Kiel supporters are having a grand ole time seeing Evon suffer. Keep this is mind – Evil never wins. Kiel appears to have the upper hand at the moment, using the rules to draft Evon into the Lionguard so she can steal his agents and equipment.

That is incorrect, Evil always finds a way. Also Ellen isn’t evil for drafting Evon, it is a completely understandable action given the circumstances. At least he’s Quartermaster and not part of the first wave that will be sent to begin retaking the city.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

When you have an over-reaching government, pushing rules upon citizens that force cooperation and the unjust confiscation of private property, you have an uprising.

Apparently a crisis is the perfect time to start killing each other. Marvelous, really. Let’s ignore the talking Weed that assaulted the city and routed the Lionguard to instead kill one another over the results of an election. It’s truly a wonder how the Elder Dragons have yet to conquer the entirely of Tyria, but then again this is probably why only Zhaitan was active the others were too busy laughing.

Disclaimer: I am being sarcastic.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Do you hear the people sing? Singing the song of angry men. It is the music of a people who will not be slaves again!

How can they sing when their lungs are filled with poisonous fumes?

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

How is a maniac who is trying to destroy the entire world (and has the means to do so) not their problem? They might try to convince themselves they are not part of this worth by acting like north koreans, but they are a part of this world.

Scarlet really hasn’t done anything towards the Tengu so they have no quarrel with her. Now when it becomes clear her actions will threatened even them, they will involve themselves in the conflict. Also from their perspective the problem was our own making, thus we should clean it up. The Sylvari’s pale tree created Scarlet, the various other races taught her in the disciplines she employs now. The Tengu, to our knowledge, have had no interaction with her other than her previous attempt to arrange an alliance with them.

It could also be simply a game mechanic to prevent players asking why the Tengu haven’t send at least a few fighters to help with the evacuations or even stop Scarlet.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Evon is a crafty charr. Sure Ellen Kiel is trying to harm him by stealing his wares, and forcing him to submit to the Lionguard, but it does give him the ability to gather valuable intel. Keep in mind what he states to Hobo-tron – the Lionguard is now keeping a close eye on his activities. Never underestimate Evon Gnashblade resolve.

If he concern with the Lionguard monitoring his actions then he is a poor infiltrator, however it should be noted his former Warband leader did have the temperament of a typical Blood Legion warrior so perhaps the warband was the shame of the legion. As for underestimating his resolve, unlikely as he has proven my estimates to be correct. He has done nothing and continues to do nothing without being intimidated to do so.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Now as for him being a hero. A true hero doesn’t ask to be one. He just is. Batman never asked to be loved by his city. No. In fact, for the good of the city, he asked that he be branded a villain. Self sacrifice is a key attribute of all heroes. This is something that Evon Gnashblade embodies.

Evon has yet to demonstrate self sacrifice. Everything he has done was for his own benefit. Killing his previous Warband Leader was to enact his own plan, running for Captain’s Council was to take advantage of a presented opportunity, and lastly if not conscripted into the Lionguard he would of been depicted as the Jastor Gallywix of Tyria.

It seems you Evon fans have ran out of arguments and now just sprouting the same material in hopes of boring the opposition into surrender.

Arikyali.5804:

If the tengu could release those arrows all over Scarlet’s minions, this whole fiasco would be done already. We could start rebuilding our fair city.

But why would they want to involve themselves with Scarlet? This is our problem not theirs, so they have no reason to do anything except defend their own gates.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

After reviewing all the evidence, it’s clear that Kiel’s focus is to do harm to a great hero, rather than protect the city. The nerve of her forcing Evon to be a part of her inept Lionguard, and stealing all of his weapons and armor under “emergency orders”. Is it as expected of a corrupt politician as her.

But there’s a silver lining in the storm clouds of evil that we call Kiel. Evon is going to outfit Hobo-tron, and power him up to be the Mighty Morphing Hero-tron!!!

Evon isn’t a hero, that would compromise his mission. Since he is, or was, a member of the Ash Legion that would make him an infiltrator, which also means that heroics are frowned upon as evident by him fleeing instead of fighting. What Ellen has done is provide Evon an opportunity. As quartermaster of the Lionguard he can monitor the ebb and flow of battle much more acutely than if he was posing as a merchant. Wouldn’t a true hero of the Ash Legion accomplish the mission no matter the circumstances? I know Blood and Iron Legion would, but they make poor infiltrators to begin with.

echo.2053:

zergs are here to stay

For the moment at least…Anet or their higher ups can always deem Zergs no longer required.

Morfedel.4165:

And now he’s also corrupting poor, innocent Heal-O-Tron….

Perhaps that was Anet’s objective all along. Tron is the personal nemesis we been searching for, cleverly hidden in plain sight. He has endeared himself to so many, only to crush their spirits with the revelation of his true programming. Ah I’m just kidding the little golem incapable of being a nemesis.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Logging in for one run won’t kill you, and if you’re already so discontent with the game that you would just want to sit it out it isn’t going to crush your spirits either.

But it would be a waste of that person’s time to log in and try it for themselves in comparison to leaving a question on a forum. Perhaps the person asking was at work or in a location where they don’t have access to the game. Asking is a very legitimate way to learn.

Kal Spiro.9745:

The only way to know is to do. People will spout what they spout, and unless you know everyone who is responding and know if their tastes match yours then nothing anyone tells you is actually meaningful. The best option is to log in and play it once. Actually be inside Lion’s Arch for ten minutes and decide if it’s not worth it. Anything else is just a waste of time and effort on all sides.

Incorrect there are various ways to find out if the content is to one’s preference, an good example is asking on the Forums. Knowing the tastes of others is irrelevant to one’s own decision. Using one’s own interests as a template one can quickly deduce whom have similar enough interests and who don’t. For example I do not like massive pvp content as it trends to devolve into pointless name calling and claims of supposed skill. Using this I can filter out the PvP Players posts, as their opinions would be from a perspective I don’t share, and focus solely on the PvE posts. Further filtering could reveal I actually might like the content as a PvE player with similar interests to my own found enjoyment, or what normally happens I find the content too dissimilar to my interests that I simply move on.

Kal Spiro.9745:

The Hardware works just fine and supports it just fine. It definitely feels like it should. Also, while simultaneous attacks might seem more epic to you, they don’t have anything to do with the story that’s being told. Even attacking the Orders is entirely irrelevant to the plot.

I’ve read different opinions on that subject, but I wish to not discuss hardware capabilities so I will concede this portion to you. As for simultaneous attacks being irrelevant to the plot, I disagree. She’s at war with all three Orders and all five major races. Her actions have prompted this response, allowing her enemies to gather in force will prove a fatal mistake. Also if whatever she searching for is hostile to her she has placed herself between two enemies, essentially between an Hammer and Anvil.

Kal Spiro.9745:

It was the inability of the small groups to have any impact on the outcome beyond the small circle they influenced that caused the problems, not the casuals, and not the “lack of empathy.”

Lack of empathy played a role on the forums, and some circumstances in game. Your initial response highlights my point. Instead of merely accepting someone might not want to log in and try the content but rather read others’ opinions to decide whether they like it or not you instead claimed that trying the content was the only way of finding out. This is similar to the argument made by the PvP elements of the community to the PvE elements and vice versa.

Lishtenbird.2814:

• Instead of stating the opinion you want people to second, you could ask people to post the good/bad points of the patch at the moment.

What’s the point if they are inquiring if the content requires a certain mentality they find not enjoyable in order to play? Also you not considering the type of audience they are appealing to. Regardless of how they word the question it would be “provoking” simply due to the fact there is differing opinions on the matter.

Lishtenbird.2814:

• However, by this moment you already have the bad experience from the release imprinted before you even tried it. But you already knew the answer anyway, and not playing content is the best way not to accidentally get any kind of pleasure and prove yourself wrong.

Incorrect not playing the content and asking for others opinions is the most efficient way to learn if there is even the silver possibility of finding enjoyment from the content. One knows one’s own tastes and can gauge from the feedback provided by others whether or not a piece of content of a video game would be worth their time or not. Every single one of us is selfish in that regard, we have our favored style of playing the game and will defend any content that allows us to indulge it.

Lishtenbird.2814:

• Once again, an MMORPG should be “massive”, and if you want non-zerg=solo content only, I’m not sure where’s the point in playing an online game. A second to last event is supposed to be twice as epic and massive.

The hardware can’t support the definition, look at Final Fantasy XIV’s end event before the relaunch they had to divert the players to another location. I will concede that a second to last event should be impressive and massive, however I find this event to be quite small. An simultaneous strike against the capital cities or even the Order’s bases would give a feeling of massive as well as possibly alleviated the stains caused by Zergs.

• The previous content patch – Marionette – was all about breaking up zerg and using tactics. Have you played it at all? I participated about 40-50 times, got 3 wins only because of people who’re not capable of doing non-zerg content but still got 2 watchwork moas, an ascended armor chest and a couple of 4-6g recipes. That patch, however, made it clear that the majority of casuals are unable to handle that skill level, and we will be having something in between for the time being.

I have a different theory on what the patch highlighted. Supposed skill level was not the thing highlighted, but rather the lack of empathy within the various factions of the Guild Wars 2 community. Several of your points made seem to support this. Unfortunately I am incapable of providing a solution if this is indeed the problem.

Nick.6972:

Hold on a sceond… Maybe the new drill will make a tunnel to Cantha!?

Or a Skritt City that been lurking beneath Lion’s Arch all this time.

Serophous.9085:

Technically, you can blame the council, but blame goes on ellen too. According to a recent interview, if evon was elected, the army wouldve been strengthened, but kiel insisted the LA could handle another attack with current forces. And as indicated from the queen’s jubilee, scarlet loves to smack people down from their high horse.

We need more charr leaders.

Do you perhaps have a link to said interview?

A Massive Headache.1879:

They underwent a change both physically and mentally, they all should essentially bea hivemive bent on fighting primordius. A fight, which I believe anet said, they are losing. Why ogden isn’t part of the hivemind, beats me.

Perhaps because he underwent the rite at a later date?

Also based on Elona (before Palwa Joko became the dominant power) and Cantha’s existence. Could it be entirely possible there are a group of dwarves that splintered from Deldimor in the distance past or could be part of lost colonies?

Traveller.7496:

How do they know you’re not the enemy? For all they know, a bunch of people and monsters are duking it out in their backyard. “Good” and “Evil” are just words, I mean, your character has probably murdered more than enough of bandits, pirates and hapless creatures. Would you readily open your gates to a riot?

Only if it guarantees me a better shot at a vital spot.

aspirine.6852:

I say we slay those chickens and sell the feathers..

Just their feathers?

I’m sure we can be more creative then that. Meatober does need a constant supply of meat after all, last I check chicken is meat.

Darkoray.4570:

Why come into a positive thread and start saying negative things? Yes we can ignore the negative people but its just bad manners and disrespectful to the OP. He was trying to give his positive feed back. I understand people are not going to like aspects of the game and that’s fine, however make a different thread to give your reasons.

+1 to you OP.

Because I can just like you can come into a thread filled with criticism and give your opinion, or even sprout gibberish just so long as it doesn’t technically break the code of conduct. Also the manner you presented your comment is actually more disrespectful to the original poster than simply ignoring the comments of those who dislike the content, I do not believe they intended to encourage this behavior with their original post but I could be wrong in that regard. Also you would of said the same thing on their threads despite the fact it was made to present criticism to Anet.

Adhal.3187:

I know a few GW1 vets that can’t even be bribed into playing GW2 anymore and they own the game.

What was the bribe?

Zanktus.9821:

I wonder what you complain about zergs. Seriously, if you are in the war, would you prefer to walk alone or in a small group, or in a massive army with tanks, bombs and a great amount of success?

Yet a Zerg isn’t comprised of bombs, tanks, and great amount of success. it comprised entirely out of infantry which can be obliterated by Scarlet’s airships if she truly wanted to.

Zanktus.9821:

Also consider the definition of “MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER Online Game” for a moment, thanks. I don’t want to enjoy those events alone or in small groups, if you want to, then please play Final Fantasy (not the mmo)

Consider the full label “Massive Multiplayer Role Playing Game” and we may be getting closer to a understanding between both groups…but I doubt it. This is why some people have problems with the Zerg content, as it doesn’t fit an RPG in any description.

SirDrygan.1823:

We didn’t destroy too many lettuce girl airship.

Ok let me rephrase the question, how exactly did she come into possession of the Airship technology? The Pact were the only faction shown to utilized the technology before the living story. If she simply salvaged down Pact Airships than why couldn’t the pact simply utilize the same methods?

SirDrygan.1823:

Zhaitan’s forces took out most of the fleet. So, cabbage Marshall don’t have the resources to do kittens.

Then explain how the insane Lettuce has so many airships? If she can salvage them within a year’s time the Pact could triple the output with the sheer bulk of engineers within its ranks alone.