(edited by Defektive.7283)
A lot of people see warriors as these untouched awesome machines of doom that can burst down players in moments.
As a Warrior play from day 1 I can tell you, the fact that we really don’t have any other build available to us to compete with at the same level as the standard GC is extremely disheartening.
It’s like your forced into a style only for the sake of being relevant without anywhere else to really go. A lot of fellow Warriors are looking to the devs for a comprise – reduce our damage but give us more interesting mechanics that will diversify our gameplay.
While I appreciate your in-depth analysis it seems that you have overlooked some fundamental issues with a number of the Warrior Hammer skills. There’s simply not enough functionality behind the brute force approach that is currently in the game.
The post was directed at showing how comparable weapons/skills that fill the same void, one can have far more interesting passive abilities that I as a PvPer would take anytime over the current Warrior ones.
An AoE Blind on the third attack is a huge+.
The AoE stun field is amazing, it forces a player to pop stability, or stay inside the circle, or to avoid the circle all together – where as the Warrior one can just be dodged.
Maybe it’s different strokes for different folks but I see the utility that the Ele Hammer brings to the table as something far more impressive than the Warriors.
There’s a ‘Post your build’ thread stickied to the top of the page, you may want to start there.
What I got from the post is a very simple premise:
Warrior hammer attack should have a combo blast finisher on the 3rd attack of the chain. It makes sense, especially since the 3rd hit is supposed to be a small aoe.
Thank you for understanding what I’m trying to point out.
Primary lackluster attack is outdone by a utility weapon that ele’s don’t even consider good, since it provides more while doing the same.
The post was supposed to be more focused on the utility the hammer brings for Ele vs. Warrior despite having basically the same attacks and comparable damage.
In a 1 to 1 comparison, the Ele Hammer brings more to the table.
Now how a person builds / traits etc. themselves ofcourse will alter a persons perception of a weapon. If I trait for Defense/Vit then even a GS will only tickle someone.
Weakness makes the most sense to me.
Consider that at 25 hits, for a slow weapon. Thats a decent amount of time. Also that there are two of them (one in your hand, one on the ground).
Then bring in the fact that Ele’s already get 25 skills, this adds another 5.
The point I’m trying to get across is that a weapon with similar attacks and animations, Warrior’s are out classed and it’s just a utility.
While I can accept the damage difference, I can’t accept the lack of a blast finisher or an ability attached to the end of the third swing. It’s inconsistent.
That’s true, but I’m just talking weapon to weapon.
And saying Ele’s are squishy is backwards in tPvP.
I find this to be pretty sad.
Warrior Hammer:
1st Attack
Dmg: 746
Range: 130
2nd Attack
Dmg: 746
Range: 130
3rd Attack
Dmg: 995
Range: 130
-Final attack does no special abilities / no combo finisher.
Ele Hammer:
1st Attack
Dmg: 820
Range: 150
2nd Attack
Dmg: 820
Range: 150
3rd Attack
Dmg: 1342
Range: 150
-Blinds enemies that are hit by the attack
-Is a combo finisher (blast)
TLDR:
Why is an Ele utility better than a primary Warrior weapon?
-Ele Deals more Damage.
-Ele brings more utility (AoE stun field?!, AoE lightning storm?!).
-Ele has a longer range.
-Ele has a combo finisher and special boon on the third swing.
I’m not saying Ele’s should even use this, I’m saying that the Warrior hammer is just worse.
(edited by Defektive.7283)
Sounds fine to me as well, just want something more interesting for mechanics.
Uhm, so the duration of the combo field would need to be kept to a very short timer right after placement, on an appropriately long cool down.
Aside from this I think it sounds fine.
I think the duration would last 10 seconds, and then if you pick up the flag and put it back down you can get the combo field back again.
I’ve been trying to work in a Banner for my tPvP build the last day. The regen trait is enticing (but a little far down the way of traits).
I think making a banner into a combo field would be a good mechanic to add because we could place the banner and begin comboing – giving some more incentive to use it.
Thoughts?
I have a feeling the population for PvP isn’t doing so well. They would be signing sPvP’s death warrant if they split the community further by forcing different buckets for free tournaments.
The balance claims are just an atrocity however.
I can’t tell if this has been derailed into sarcasm but 1 Axe is simply amazing x.x
All i want is someone (a dev) to hold me and tell me that being a warrior will only get better as I rock back and forth in the fetal position.
All I’m trying to do is explain that – this changed nothing.
but good troll attempt! give warriors hope of something new and fresh and interesting instead of our standardized tPvP build.
You silly minx.
Yay the patch finally arrived! Finally I won’t be pigeon holed into a shouting GS + x user in order to be viable!
…..
Oh. :’(
Well now I’m just so depressed I think I’ll skip logging in and starting at my warrior and go right to the drinking myself to a nice level of apathy before passing out….
Maybe next patch…
You sir, win the internet.
ok now you’re just trollin lol
If you trait for any of the number of adren generators you’re never starved for adren to begin with… I can usually do all my F1s on cooldown with almost 3 bars.
I’m still trying to figure out what suddenly became viable.
you’re not going to say any because there isn’t a sudden new build that becomes viable simply because you can get andren immediately.
there’s utilities that already do this, so a build like you’re referring to would have been viable a long time ago
Name one tPvP build that’s now viable because of this.
Plus, also give a reason why we should drop condi removal for it.
Also, was this an undocumented buff?
Considering their sales, they should be able to support a full team for a bare minimum of one year.
It’s called putting money back into your company to make it better.
Sorry I mis-worded that, I’ll reword.
Lost 500 pts here.
I think this patch was actually detrimental to the Warrior s/tPvP meta.
Nerfed thief burst but didn’t nerf ours (or change our skills).
Now we’re definitely lumped into the burst/roaming category.
(edited by Defektive.7283)
One of the most persistent bugs for Warriors still isn’t fixed. I’m slightly frustrated.
Good work most of everywhere else I guess – didn’t really change the warrior meta much it seems though.
(edited by Defektive.7283)
I think the NPC Warrior is damage buffed to compensate for lack of intelligence. AKA it needs to do more damage to be considered a threat because it doesn’t know how to do complicated things like human players do.
http://forums.coalitiongaming.org/gw/defektives-build-thread/
DPS Variant. Should fit your niche for hammer DPS. (3-5k dmg criticals).
CTF/Control Point:
Keep the nodes, add a flag to the middle of each node.
Enemy has to channel uninterrupted for 5 seconds in order to ‘pickup’ a flag.
They then have to run the flag back to an already capture point. Once it gets there, they now control the new point.
1) Keeps the current maps / format / layout
2) Adds in fun unique gameplay thats focused on speed and control.
3) Is fun.
I’ve been using rifle successfully in tPvP without Bolas.
If Bola’s Z axis worked just like GS thrown sword I think people would use it far more.
that would be sickkkkkkkkk. im guessing the problem is what to do with excess glory, since you wouldn’t be able to burn it on getting multiples of the same item if that kind of change actually went into effect.
tbh we already have excess glory so this change wouldn’t change much.
One of the larger issues with teleport is simple – you can teleport through walls and onto points.
A great example of this is on Battle of Khylo. A quick thief in the beginning of the match can teleport through the clock tower (from the bottom) straight onto the point. Giving your team a sizable advantage in capturing mid early on.
The issue is that, that ‘glitch’ seems to co-exist with the mechanics I’m referring to – teleporting to ledges and other areas that would be unreachable by other classes.
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The issue is that it’s a spammable skill.
Why bring classes that can’t teleport but provide similar damage/bunker abilities. Having classes that can vertically teleport is a direct mobility benefit.
Why bring X over Y if one has far more mobility?
Thats what you say about mesmers and all teams don’t bring one. And i feel portal is far better compared to vertical teleport.
Honestly i prefer a thief than a ele dps.
Actually, that’s a different discussion. Mesmer mobility is on a longer CD and is primarily used team reinforcement. Portal is important to RETURN to places, teleports will help you get to, and return to any place on the map at will.
What I’m referring to is individual spammable teleports that a single individual to rapidly move around a map. If it’s a vertical map then they can traverse the map quickly regardless of team need or CD.
This is the most important PvP Change of all time period ever.
+1
Based on the upcoming patch:
I have a feeling that with burst builds taking a hit, and bunker builds becoming less bunkery. This build will be well suited for tournament pvp, especially the DPS variant.
The issue is that it’s a spammable skill.
Why bring classes that can’t teleport but provide similar damage/bunker abilities. Having classes that can vertically teleport is a direct mobility benefit.
Why bring X over Y if one has far more mobility?
Here’s what I’ve observed over my many, many tournaments.
Most teams are comprised of:
First 3: Guardian/Mesmer/Engy
Next 2: Necro or Ele or Thief
Last: Thief or Warrior
Never: Ranger
Most teams are then:
Guard/Ele/Engy/Necro/Mesmer
Guard/Ele/Engy/Mesmer/Thief
Guard/Necro/Mesmer/Ele/Thief (This is probably the most common)
Guard/Necro/Mesmer/Engy/Thief
Rarer, but not uncommon:
Guard/Necro/Mesmer/Warrior/Ele
Key points:
Most teams bring 1.5 bunkers (.5 is a tankier class that is just inherently tanky)
Most teams bring one Glass cannon – preferably thief due to DD spike with shortbow from the outskirts so they dont take AOE damage and drop like a fly.
Most teams bring 3 mobility classes (Mesmer/Thief/Ele etc.)
Works / doesnt work.
Works when you have enough time to change traits.
Doesn’t work when you’re never allowed to be out of combat when traveling from one point to another.
TLDR: it’s hit or miss.
Of course you want a high skill cap. But blocking one attack in s/tPvP is negligible.
Example: Mesmer shatter burst.
Blocking 1 attack every 8-10 seconds (on command) would just negate 2k of almost 10k damage.Current block mechanic is basically invulnerability for 3 seconds. I don’t know how many times my life has been saved by the shield block. And I would never trade that for some terrible 1 block on a small CD.
You need to consider how quickly attacks come in in s/tPvP.
I never said it would only block one attack.
On a side note it should probably be different for sPvP and PvE/WvW. They play out very differently and trying to balance for both at the same time will never really work. You should have the skills do the essentially the same things and many skills will stay the same but they have and probably will be more making more changes like that.
I would be ok with a change if the CD was reduced, but the stance time was reduced from 3 seconds to 1.
But I wouldn’t be ok if it followed standard block mechanics for Sword OH / Mace MH (1 block then its gone).
I’m basing my part of this discussion as if you wanted the shield to follow standard block mechanics apart from it’s current use.
In regards to s/tPvP.
I’ll take a shield over a warhorn anyday of the week. 10x over. No questions asked.
I wasn’t thinking about sPvP when I wrote this but my suggested change would just make it more skill based. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought sPvP was supposed to encourage high levels of player skill.
Of course you want a high skill cap. But blocking one attack in s/tPvP is negligible.
Example: Mesmer shatter burst.
Blocking 1 attack every 8-10 seconds (on command) would just negate 2k of almost 10k damage.
Current block mechanic is basically invulnerability for 3 seconds. I don’t know how many times my life has been saved by the shield block. And I would never trade that for some terrible 1 block on a small CD.
You need to consider how quickly attacks come in in s/tPvP, and more importantly that Burst comes in spikes every 30ish seconds. Having an invul for that burst is way more important than having a single block every few seconds.
Don’t fix it. It’s an amazing game mechanic just like teleporting through walls.
In regards to s/tPvP.
I’ll take a shield over a warhorn anyday of the week. 10x over. No questions asked.
Considering the map is being shipped with BETA status, I wouldn’t consider it proven from a competitive standpoint. I’m not saying it won’t ever be in the tournament rotation, just not right now. After talking to people, we aren’t considering the teleporting a bug. I also wouldn’t consider it an issue on the new map.
Map shipped as Beta being omitted from tPvP makes sense. Good choice.
In regards to teleporting NOT being considered a bug. Can we confirm that it’s intended use can be to move through walls and vertical ledges?
A little clarification as to the stance on this subject would prove important to the overall PvP discussion where many have singled this out as a ‘bug’ that will get fixed. With a clear answer people can instead plan for contingencies to counter it.
Thanks Evan!
I’m running a new tourny build that doesn’t use the GS.
Mainly due to most teams having so much AOE now a days being a glass GS has a lot of downsides.
Temple of the silent storm will not be on the tournament rotations. Unfortunately I cannot give an update on the state of the teleport bug.
Evan,
Thank you for responding.
Is the reasoning for the map not being in the rotation due to the 3 round premise? If so, wouldn’t it be possible to randomize the maps?
Also, and more importantly.
The teleport issue is accurately depicted as a ‘bug’ or are we depicting your writing incorrectly.
Thank you!
Sigil of Earth has an internal CD? A number of times I have been able to stack 3 bleeds at once with one attack, back to back.
Can anyone else confirm this since it’s not on the tooltip?
Hi there.
This discussion is more focused on hopefully getting a response from ANet regarding teleport skills and the new map / current maps.
Right now many classes (Thief/Mesmer/Guardian) can use teleport skills to go through walls to certain places as well as traversing vertical areas (can go from bottom of Clocktower to a ledge instantly).
With the new map being more vertically inclined, what is ANet going to do about these teleport skills and their wide abuse in Paid/Free tournaments?
As of right now, this would give a clear mobility advantage to three of the classes most widely seen in current Tournaments.
Thank you.
(edited by Defektive.7283)
^Wouldn’t work in a real-world scenario.
Problem being he won’t pop stability unless your a class that has knockbacks to begin with. Mesmers have very little in that department.
So stealing any buffs would only make you tankier, which the guardian doesn’t care about since his goal isn’t to kill you, just to toss you around like a ragdoll until his friends show up.
Now if you’re to team up with someone else who has knockbacks and stuns etc. And perform a 2v1 against said guardian, then you’re fighting a bad team that wasn’t watching the map and wasn’t sending people to intercept. At which point this scenario is null since it’s not against a valid set of players.
The Mesmer has two skills that can get the Guardian out of the node (not counting underwater); Into the Void and Illusionary Wave. Each has a cooldown of ~30 seconds. Next to that you could also use Runes of the Nightmare for the 5% chance to fear.
It does matter if the roles becomes switched. If you push the Guardian of the node, you will need the stability to stay on the node. Stealing retaliation also helps you to deal more damage to the Guardian.
You wouldn’t attack 2v1 at first. The strategy would be exactly the same as with a bunker Guardian. If the fight drags out, and you think (or know from experience) that the Guardian is going to call for backup, you do the same. So the fight goes from being 1v1, to being 2v2. You basically copy the bunker strategy.
This got really off-topic now. I’ll stop responding on this subject before it turns the page.
Two knockbacks on 30 sec cd’s won’t force a good guardian to pop stability. bare minimum you’ll get half way to the point being contested. it’ll take 1.5 minutes before you can effectively neutralize a point.
Good teams will respond in under 30 seconds to a point. Retaliation does very little damage to guardians due to their slow attack speed, so even if you steal it, it’s not really going to add much to your overall dps.
Not to mention if a fight goes into a 2v2, you’re basically wasting time on that point because you won’t be able to cap it easily. Which is going to lose you the battle.
Against competent players, a mesmer isn’t the solution to remove a guardian from a fight. A necro however, is.
(edited by Defektive.7283)
^Wouldn’t work in a real-world scenario.
Problem being he won’t pop stability unless your a class that has knockbacks to begin with. Mesmers have very little in that department.
So stealing any buffs would only make you tankier, which the guardian doesn’t care about since his goal isn’t to kill you, just to toss you around like a ragdoll until his friends show up.
Now if you’re to team up with someone else who has knockbacks and stuns etc. And perform a 2v1 against said guardian, then you’re fighting a bad team that wasn’t watching the map and wasn’t sending people to intercept. At which point this scenario is null since it’s not against a valid set of players.